Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

Cross-posted at DailyKos.

The rumors of the demise of Clinton's Florida-Michigan demands for 100% seating have been greatly exaggerated.

Earlier, the Clinton campaign said, on a conference call, that Florida and Michigan did, indeed break the rules. This spread across the Internet (including the Great Orange Satan) like wildfire. Obama supporters began a premature celebration believing that Clinton conceded the sanctions.

Well, not so fast. The fact that Clinton understands rules were broken does not mean she thinks the rule breakers should be punished. In fact, the Clinton campaign also published a letter today that reiterates their argument that 100% of the delegates should be seated.

Ok, first of all, let's put to bed the myth that today is the first time the Clintons have said that Florida and Michigan broke the rules. They're not stupid -- you can call them crazy, insane, illogical, irrational, but they're not stupid. They can read. They know the rules were broken, and they have said so. But they have also made arguments that they should be forgiven, that they should be allowed to revote, that the voters should not be punished (sanctioned) because of decisions made by state party leaders. Their primary argument has been that the Democratic Party should not disenfranchise the people who took the time to get out and vote in Florida and Michigan because we need them in November. Now, I disagree with their argument, but that is their argument. Their argument was never that Florida and Michigan did not break the rules!

Most of us can probably also agree that the reason she is making any argument is because she's losing, but that's beside the point.

A diary on the DailyKos rec list right now argues:

The Clinton campaign cannot protest [seating only half the delegates], since they admit that rules were broken.

I beg to differ. Not only can they argue (wrongheadedly of course) that the full delegation can be seated even though the rules were broken, they are arguing that the full delegation should be seated even though the rules were broken.

I. The RBC has the authority to seat all of the delegates from Florida and Michigan with full votes.

The RBC can and should seat all of the delegates from Florida and Michigan with Full Votes. In a recent analysis, the DNC staff observed correctly that the penalty imposed on Florida and Michigan exceeded the guidelines established in Rule 20(C)(1), which would reduce the voting power of pledged delegates by no more than 50% and unpledged delegates by 100% if a state holds its primary too early. But the Staff then concluded that the Committee "does not have the authority to reverse...these automatic sanctions" for failing to comply with the schedule set out in Rule 11. This conclusion is incorrect.

The RBC has broad powers to fully reinstate the Florida and Michigan delegations. Rule 20(C)(7) allows the RBC to forgive violations when a state party and other relevant good faith to bring the state into compliance with the DNC's Delegate Selection Rules. With the support of Senator Clinton, both states made good faith attempts and took provable, positive steps to bring their systems into compliance with the DNC Rules by trying to organize re-votes. In fact, the RBC Co-Chairs specifically acknowledged that the proposed Michigan legislation for a re-vote "would fit within the framework of the Rules." (Letter from the Co-Chairs of the RBC, March 19, 2008). Although the states' efforts to establish new processes that would comply with the Rules failed, under Rule 20(C)(7) the states' attempts do provide a sufficient basis for the RBC to exercise discretion and to restore the entire states' delegations with full votes.

Under the Rules, the RBC clearly has continuing jurisdiction over this matter and has broad authority to fashion any appropriate remedy Rule 19(D)(1), Rule 19(E), Rule 20(C)(5). Any of these provisions would suffice to reinstate Florida and Michigan's full slate of delegates as elected.

It is a bedrock principle of our Party that every vote must be counted, and thereby every elected delegate should be seated. The States have already been punished because no campaign activity was conducted in Florida and Michigan. There is no requirement or need to punish their duly elected delegates who represent the 2.3 million voters in Michigan and Florida who participated in the nominating process.

Not only is Clinton still making the argument that the delegates be seated in full, she is trying to justify it as inappropriately punishing the delegates and voters.

Clinton further argues that the rules do not allow transferring "uncommitted" delegates to Obama:

Neither the DNC Rules nor the Michigan Delegate Selection Plan allow arbitrary reallocation of Uncommitted delegates to a candidate or arbitrary reallocation of delegates from one candidate to another.

...

...the intent of the more than 238,000 individiuals who voted for Uncommitted cannot now be determined. The voters may have been truly uncommitted or they may have supported Joe Biden, John Edwards, or Bill Richardson.

mspicata offers the best rebuttal to this:

By my count, that reduces Clinton's Michigan numbers by 55, because we can discern something about those 238,000 people.

Those 238,000 people voted against your candidate, Mr. Ickes.  That was their intent.  That means they should be committed to a negative vote for your candidate.  Fair's fair, right?  Voter intent and all that?

The final argument that Clinton makes foreshadows the convention floor fight that many people believe the Clintons want:

IV. The Florida and Michigan Challenges Should Be Resolved Promptly by the RBC Rather than Waiting for the Credentials Committee to Act.

The RBC has jurisdiction over challenges pertaining to the submission, nonimplementation, and violation of state Delegate Selection and Affirmative Action Plans. Thus, the RBC has jurisdiction to resolve these challenges, and it should do so. Millions of voters in Florida and Michigan have waited patiently for more than four months to know whether their votes will count and whether they will play a meaningful role in determining who will be the Democratic nominee. It is time to resolve this pivotal matter.

Let me just repeat this because this is the most important statement of the day:

Challenges Should Be Resolved Promptly by the RBC Rather than Waiting for the Credentials Committee

Ladies and gentlemen, if Florida and Michigan appeal the decision of the RBC, the Credentials Committee will make its decision at the Convention.

For anyone who thinks Clinton is conceding sanctions, think again. Not only is she demanding the full delegations be seated, she is saying to the RBC that if they don't seat the delegates in full that this thing is going to the Credentials Committee -- that is, she is taking it to the convention.

Tags: 2008, Convention, delegates, Elections, Hillary Clinton, Primary (all tags)

Comments

58 Comments

Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

Yay!

Anarchy!  We can break the rules without consequences!

Let's celebrate until the convention!

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-30 02:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

Aw, you're in law school.  You should know better.  

by BPK80 2008-05-30 04:38PM | 0 recs
This is when you will see...

Obama get the backing of the supers for the number he needs to be the nominee.

She can try, but watch the big dogs come out and say, "Obama".

by shirley temple 2008-05-30 02:56PM | 0 recs
This is over.

The Clintons aren't bigger than the Democratic party, no matter how much they insist otherwise.

Get on board with the Democratic nominee. The general election awaits.

by Firewall 2008-05-30 02:58PM | 0 recs
This is the closest nomination race in history!

And, candidates with far less of a claim have stunk up the joint a hell of a lot worse in the past, too!

Keep disrespecting the Clintons, and you'll see their volume raised in opposition to yours!

"Keep doin' what you're doin' and you'll keep gettin' what you got!" (And, I'm not talking about four more years of Bush-lite.) I'm talking about the can of whoop-ass, the lid for which is being ripped off by Obama supporters' Hillary-hate, the likes of which is grossly unacceptable to this HRC supporter.

The best thing Obama's supporters could do on behalf of their candidate--and with regard to all this Hillary-hate--is truly, sincerely, honestly, just STFU! Stop it with the Clinton bashing, dammit! You may not realize it, but you're feeding the very fires of your opposition!

Get a freakin' clue!

by bobswern 2008-05-30 03:03PM | 0 recs
Indeed

I have been trying to calm things down here are get people to focus fire on John McCain, however I am not a mouth for all Obama supporters, but know that some of us are trying to tone things down.  Look in most diaries today, I told people to concede the battle if it looked contentious.

by Student Guy 2008-05-30 03:10PM | 0 recs
Sometimes in the middle of the day
 while I'm making a cup of espresso or strumming my guitar, I'll just start shaking and crying, for what seems like no reason.  Then it dawns on me.  I'm a blogger at MyDD, and I have to be very, very careful.  I have to watch my step.
I must monitor my words with the utmost caution. In fact, I have to shut the fuck up according to Mr.Bob!  I know it sounds harsh, but the millions of people who frequent this blog might just turn the election to McCain if I so much as mention the fact that Hillary's a goner. I'm so afraid of the Clintons and their supporters right now.
by ReillyDiefenbach 2008-05-30 03:20PM | 0 recs
Reilly, I wake up sweating at night,

from a nightmare, where Obama was just one vote short of winning, and there is ol' BobSwern, grinning and jumping up and down and shouting, "I showed you!  I showed all you sons o' bitches!  I voted for McCain!  How do you like him now?"

We must be careful not to antagonize any pro-Clinton users on MyDD for just this very reason!

by Dumbo 2008-05-30 05:24PM | 0 recs
Hillary-hate? Seriously?

Obama's treated Clinton with kid gloves.  If she wants a fight, it'll be a drubbing.  She won't be able to get elected dogcatcher in Park Ridge by the time the reality-based wing of the party is done with her.

What you're seeing now is the Obama faction trying to talk Hillary out of lighting the match after she's soaked herself with gasoline.

by nightsweat 2008-05-30 03:39PM | 0 recs
Stinking, quantitatively speaking.

And, candidates with far less of a claim have stunk up the joint a hell of a lot worse in the past, too!

Ah, so we finally have agree that the Clintons are stinking up the joint.  We only disagree by how much.  Finally, we have common ground!

Of course, most of us just want to stop all the stinking rather than settle for some.

by Dumbo 2008-05-30 05:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

Nah. This will all be over next week. Clinton's own PLEOs will take her aside and tell her it's time to go.  

by fugazi 2008-05-30 03:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

You confuse seating the full delegation from both states with taking her nomination "to the convention."  They're not the same.  The issue of MI/FL could be resolved at the convention and she could also end her campaign in the next week.

by rfahey22 2008-05-30 03:09PM | 0 recs
After a few more surprises like Pfleger - - -

I have actually predicted the following to my friends.  Obama will be nominated, the GOP will unload a devastating surprise, and Hillary will be substituted.

Just a guess.

Have you all seen the OTHER part of Pfleger's sermon from that same day?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfWnY5PC0 CQ

This is a Christian church?

by katmandu1 2008-05-30 03:10PM | 0 recs
You got a lot of churches to condemn

Personally, I'd condemn all of them at some level.  But then I'm not fond of Christianty as it is typically instantiated in any case, or theologies in general.  You can be as tolerant as you like, but when you believe that Satan is running the lives of those not in agreement with you, tolerance only runs so deep...

And before the Christians throw me to the lions, a lot of Christians have done good things, I just have no fondness for theologies as a whole.  Good things can come out of them, but so can awful things.

-chris

by chrisblask 2008-05-30 03:24PM | 0 recs
Re: After a few more surprises like Pfleger - - -

It's a Catholic priest...  you know... the same Catholics that voted for your candidate!

Next, you'll be attacking Lutherans!

by LordMike 2008-05-30 04:01PM | 0 recs
If they reject Obama,

what makes you so sure that they would all turn to Hillary as a substitute?  That seems like a not well thought out plan.

It would be more credible for Hillary to go back to plan A: Hope for Obama to be assassinated.

by Dumbo 2008-05-30 05:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

I'll support her regardless of what course she takes. Obama has repeatedly demonstrated disdain for Clinton's supporters, we have no reason to believe that he has any interest in representing us. Senator Clinton should do what she believes is necessary to keep our issues, like universal health care, the rights of women, and growing income inequality, at the top of the Democratic agenda.

by souvarine 2008-05-30 03:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

Please link to something, anything that Obama has said that demonstrates disdain for Clinton's supporters.

If he's done it "repeatedly" as you say, then surely you can find something he has said.

I note that you said that "Obama" has demonstrated it, not his campaign, nor his supporters, so I'm sure you can find at least one unambiguous quote from him to make your point.

If you can find me just one verifiable quote that substantially means what you've said, I will gladly concede the point.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-30 03:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

Please link to something, anything that Obama has said that demonstrates disdain for Clinton's supporters.
Having disdain for Clinton is like having disdain for her supporters.

by soyousay 2008-05-30 03:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

Obama has had nothing but effusive praise for Hillary and her campaign in his stump speeches in the last few weeks. The overheated sniping among online supporters has nothing to do with the campaign.

by hankg 2008-05-30 03:28PM | 0 recs
"claws come out"

Obama flipped her the bird. Plus, the praise is a little late in my opinion; Obama finally realized he needed her supporters.

by soyousay 2008-05-30 03:47PM | 0 recs
Re: "claws come out"

You don't seriously think he flipped her the bird in front of tv cameras, do you? I mean, really. Come on.

by Zoey 2008-05-30 03:48PM | 0 recs
Re: "claws come out"

Um, pictures taken from other angles of that incident clearly show that he did not.

http://notforeverjustfornow2007.blogspot .com/2008/04/oh-no-dreaded-two-finger-fl ip-off.html

That's the shot.  Please admit that you were wrong now.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-30 03:49PM | 0 recs
Re: "claws come out"

I've already examined many images and the video and watched the audience reaction. IMO, he flipped her the bird. You're entitled to your opinion.

by soyousay 2008-05-30 03:53PM | 0 recs
Re: "claws come out"

Yes, but you are not entitled to your own set of facts.

You are actually ignoring physical evidence so you can believe what you want to believe.  That's really not a healthy sign.

He isn't the devil.  He doesn't hate women.  He married a very strong and brash one.  That says rather a lot.

If he was the kind of man you seem to think he is, certainly he'd want a wife who would "know her role" or some other such insanity.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-30 04:11PM | 0 recs
Re: "claws come out"

Well I guess if you can just make stuff up there is no point in having a discussion.

by hankg 2008-05-30 04:22PM | 0 recs
Re: "claws come out"

"Obama flipped her the bird."

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!  

Wow! So that's your argument? Look, we'll give you a do-over.

by fugazi 2008-05-30 03:51PM | 0 recs
Re: "claws come out"

I'm glad you find it amusing...actually I could care less.

In reference to do-over; where did I say that?

by soyousay 2008-05-30 03:57PM | 0 recs
Re: "claws come out"

The correct phrase is "I couldn't care less."

If you could care less, then you care somewhere above zero, because there are levels of care lower (less) than you currently possess.

If you could not care less, you are at absolute apathy.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-30 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: "claws come out"

Actually, I wasn't addressing you.

by soyousay 2008-05-30 05:00PM | 0 recs
Re: "claws come out"

I'm not concerned with whom the audience was.  That misuse of the phrase has driven me crazy for all of my adult life, and I always point it out.

When someone is saying something that means essentially the opposite of what they intend, it's only fair to help fix it.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-30 05:27PM | 0 recs
Re: "claws come out"

I'm glad you had some relief

by soyousay 2008-05-30 05:33PM | 0 recs
Birdgate...

it's back, and badder than ever before!

by Dumbo 2008-05-30 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

No, actually it's not.  You are welcome to impute that if you choose to, but that's a purely subjective choice on your part.

That's got to be, without a doubt, the crappiest line of "reasoning" I've seen from you.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-30 03:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

No, actually it's not.
In my opinion it is. I would think that many, many Clinton supporters feel the same way I do. You don't speak for Clinton supporters do you?

by soyousay 2008-05-30 04:00PM | 0 recs
I know, it's difficult,

but pay attention: I can't speak for all Obama supporters, and you can't speak for all Clinton supporters.  Don't we both wish we were that powerful?  But I'm not psychotic, so I know better.

by Dumbo 2008-05-30 05:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

I'm glad you'll support whatever Clinton says. Read my sig.

by fugazi 2008-05-30 03:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

I won't. Obama is one messed up dude. I could never vote for him.

by soyousay 2008-05-30 03:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

Well, I guess Obama will have to muddle through without your support.  

by fugazi 2008-05-30 03:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

Muddle is "wright."

by soyousay 2008-05-30 03:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

Yeah, it'll be hard. I understand the campaign is having a big meeting about how to recover from the loss of your vote.

by fugazi 2008-05-30 03:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

Ask Kerry...He knows.

by soyousay 2008-05-30 05:02PM | 0 recs
Rules Won't be Enforced?

Excuse me I'm heading to Circuit City there's a 40 inch Plasma I've been wanting for a while...Yipeeeeeeeeeee...

by hootie4170 2008-05-30 03:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Rules Won't be Enforced?

I've got a 42" Panasonic plasma.

It's my hotness.  It rocks.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-30 03:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

I wouldn't count on it. She knows if she takes it past next week she will lose a huge chunk of her super delegates and go down in career ending flames. There is however still a path to the White House.

If she truly believes that Obama is unelectable her best course of action will be to work like hell to get him elected. Be his most public advocate. She will preserve the power base she has built in the primaries and repair the damage she has suffered with African Americans without whom she can not even carry NY.

If Obama then loses she will be perfectly positioned to run again. If she refuses to recognize the winner once the supers have declared in sufficient numbers she will destroy whatever she has built and will never see the White House. She will go from tenacious fighter to sore loser in the eyes of the public and her support outside of a few online fanatics will collapse.

She will act in her own self interest and live to fight another day.

by hankg 2008-05-30 03:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

I love her! Full steam ahead.

by engels 2008-05-30 03:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

Love can cloud the mind, making it difficult to reason and to see things as they are.

by fugazi 2008-05-30 03:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention
you sound like a pastor from
http://www.tucc.org/pastor.htm
If you have a weak mind than yes, love can cloud it.
so speak for yourself, dear pastor...
don't forget that god does not exist and all pastors are paid to lie!
and liars cannot reason well...
by engels 2008-05-30 08:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

if barack is losing momentum, I'd guess that it has more to do with his constant complaining.  Even when he's ahead he complains, he complains before she's done anything at all, it's a constant drone of unpleasantness.  He needs to cheer up and get warm and friendly.  

by anna shane 2008-05-30 03:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

Sure. If by "losing momentum" you mean clinching the nomination.

by fugazi 2008-05-30 03:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

momentum with whom?  I think the person with the popular vote should be the nominee.  

by anna shane 2008-05-30 03:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

You are entitled to your opinion.

Could you please demonstrate where in the DNC rules, though, it states that the winner of the popular vote becomes the nominee?

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-30 03:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton: Taking It to the Convention

"I think the person with the popular vote should be the nominee."

Why don't you put that in the suggestion box for 2012?

by fugazi 2008-05-30 03:53PM | 0 recs
no such thing as "popular vote"

it's a meaningless talking point, not a measure of anything.

by JJE 2008-05-30 03:54PM | 0 recs
What else Hillary Clinton said...

Slate:

"If the most important thing to any of you is choosing someone who did not cast that vote [AUMF] or has said his vote was a mistake, then there are others to choose from."

Yes, there is another to choose from.  Your wish is my command.

William Saletan, Feb. 2007, same article:

"This is an amazingly stupid and arrogant position. If she sticks to it, it will probably kill her candidacy. And it should."

How prophetic that was.

by Dumbo 2008-05-30 05:36PM | 0 recs
objection. assumes facts not in evidence

by JJE 2008-05-30 03:53PM | 0 recs
Re: objection. assumes facts not in evidence

Yeah, the only complaining I hear is from Hillary supporters!

by LordMike 2008-05-30 04:03PM | 0 recs
Great diary

Maybe with a different title, one that mentions FL/MI like "Setting the Record Straight on Clinton's FL/MI Argument" it would get more hits.  Convention diaries scare a lot of people away and they're a bit inflammatory.  

Rec'd.

by BPK80 2008-05-30 04:36PM | 0 recs

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