Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wright

I watched CNN's program "Reliable Sources," hosted by Washington Post writer Howard Kurtz, several hours ago.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0 803/16/rs.01.html

The panel discussed the burgeoning Jeremiah Wright scandal and its effects on the viability of presidential candidate Barack Obama.

A number of angles were considered, but there were two points of agreement:

1. The story is as big as it is, and will continue to have journalistic 'legs,' because of the existence of the dramatic video of a clearly exercised, strident Wright giving his sermons.

2. The next aspect of the scandal to be examined by reporters will be to try to place Barack Obama at some of the incendiary sermons. Senator Obama, in denouncing Jeremiah Wright and forcing him to step down from his campaign, said that he had never personally sat in the pews of the church when Wright delivered such messages as the videos demonstrate. "What did Obama know about Wright and when did he know it?", I believe one of the panel members said.

This is where things could get tricky for the Illinois senator and where it is possible that he could be engaging in a parsing of words.

Obama has said that he was not aware of Wright's inflammatory remarks, I believe, until he began his run for president (http://www.startribune.com/politics/nati onal/president/16691146.html). The questions then are:

- Do you mean the official start of your presidential campaign?

- If you knew of his remarks then, why did you name him to your
     official campaign staff?

Particularly germane to this issue is your disinviting him to give an invocation at your formal announcement of your presidential campaign (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/us/pol itics/06obama.html), which leads to follow-up questions:

- Why is it that you asked Rev. Wright not to give the invocation
      at this event? What did you know then?

- Why didn't whatever information you had that made you rescind
      your invitation to Rev. Wright stop you from making him a
      part of your official campaign staff?

Continuing, Senator Obama, you said that you never sat in the pews of Trinity United Church of Christ and heard Wright deliver such anti-American, racially divisive remarks (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/us/pol itics/15wright.html?_r=1&bl=&ei= 5087&en=5a8aba53a3148fae&ex=1205 726400&oref=slogin&pagewanted=pr int). However, you have also said that you listened to tapes of Rev. Wright while at Harvard Law School (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0 803/14/acd.01.html) and you have been a member of Wright's congregation for 20 years. Which leads to our next questions:

- How can you expect anyone to believe that you were not fully
     appraised of the nature of Rev. Wright's messages? Are we
     supposed to believe that the man who baptized your children
     and married you and your wife, whom you chose as your
     spiritual adviser, wasn't fully examined by you? That is,
     that you didn't know exactly what he was all about before
     you choose him for the important duties just mentioned?

- If you didn't know all about him, as you have said, then what
     does this say about your supposedly superior 'judgment?'
     There are only two possibilities here, and neither is
     good where you are concerned: You chose someone whom you
     hadn't fully vetted to be your spiritual mentor for years
     or else you knew the hateful nature of this man's message
     and yet you still chose him to be on your official campaign,
     even after he said to you that you might want to distance
     yourself from him. Which is it, senator?

More issues of judgment have arisen from this imbroglio, senator. When the matter began to come to a head on Friday, you wavered (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 008/03/14/770536.aspx) when faced with what should have been an easy decision, leading to yet a further question:

- Why did you say, initially, on Friday that there were no plans
     for Wright to step down from the campaign before then
     turning around mere hours later and firing him? What was
     the sudden change in attitude, and what does this change
     of your mind say about your judgment, and your conviction?

Senator Obama, it is my firm belief that should you be named the Democratic presidential nominee, Democrats could very well suffer a loss in the general election along the lines of a Reagan - Mondale rout. Your association with this hate-mongering pastor has jeopardized the fortunes of millions of Democrats who are incredibly eager to re-take the White House this year.

As could be expected, the GOP has seized on these videos and your association with Wright and seems rather eager to exploit your poor judgment:

"I think there's a reason Republicans I talk to are increasingly looking forward to running against Barack Obama," Fleischer said.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/15/ fallout-from-pastors-sermons-unknown-as- obama-attempts-damage-control/

Here is the view of novelist and screenwriter Roger L. Simon, who might be expected to know something about what kind of material will play well with the public:

"As we all know, we don't choose our family, but Obama chose this racist demagogue as his pastor for decades. It's not funny," Simon writes on his personal blog. "It could do for Obama what Willie Horton did for Dukakis," Simon later adds. "But unlike the Willie Horton ad, Obama will deserve this. Horton was a mistake by Dukakis that any of us could have made. Jeremiah Wright was Obama's personal choice for years."

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/200 8/03/13/a-sermon-echoing-around-obama/?r ef=opinion

These statements lead to the next question:

- With the clear understanding that the GOP has seized on these
     videos and has vowed to use them against you should you be
     nominated, why should any Democrats continue to support you
     when many of us feel as though these tapes will cost you
     millions of white Americans' votes, not to mention those of
     Jewish-Americans (Wright was associated with Louis Farrakhan
     ) and any other Americans who don't like the phrase "God
     Damn America" or who don't like America being blamed for
     9/11? How can you think you have ANY chance against the TV
     ads you know will be coming your way in October and November
     ?

And finally:

- Has the time come for you to end your campaign, with the
     knowledge that -- due to you own lack of judgment or
     inability to act to remove pastor Wright from your campaign
     (or to have never named him) -- should you be nominated your
     fellow Democrats are doomed to 4 more years of GOP rule in
     the White House?
---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- ----------
---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- ----------

You have failed us, Senator Obama. That much is clear. By your acceptance and elevation of the racially divisive Rev. Jeremiah Wright, you have both shown an unwelcome part of your character and you have demonstrated a decided lack of judgment, supposedly one of the positive cornerstones of your campaign.

There are those in the media who have attempted to equate your spiritual adviser with certain pastors who have endorsed Senator McCain, but those attempts have already been shot down as the non-equivalences that they are. An example:

"[Obama's] connection to Wright isn't the equivalent to John McCain's going to Liberty University to make nice with [preacher] Jerry Falwell," writes Ross Douthat in The Atlantic magazine. "It's the equivalent of John McCain taking his wife and children, most Sundays, to Jerry Falwell's church." And this McCain has not done - neither with Falwell, nor with (evangelical preacher John) Hagee."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/9647 32.html

Simply put, that 'equivalency' dog won't hunt.

.
.

I'm not going to mince words, senator: I think you are lying about Reverend Wright. I think you knew all about him before your formal announcement to run for president, regardless of whether or not you were present for those particular sermons which have received significant airplay in the last several days.

You are too intelligent a man to have: picked someone as your personal spiritual adviser; named your second book after one of his sermons; chosen him to marry you and your wife; allowed him to baptize both of your daughters; chosen to join and attend his church for 20 years; and allowed your daughters to listen to his antagonistic messages week after week, year after year, without knowing all about him.

One of the common questions I have heard both in the media and on various blogs in the wake of this scandal is:

"Is this why Michelle Obama seems so angry, because of listening to Reverend Wright for years? Is this why she has said she is only now proud of her country, when you, her husband seems to have a chance at the White House?"

In that same vein, people are wondering about you, Senator Obama. Wondering if Rev. Wright's anger has passed over to you. Pastor Wright has displayed a lot of anger and frustration and disrespect towards the United States, and, as he has been your spiritual adviser and pastor for around two decades, people are bringing up legitimate concerns about your own temperament, particularly as it regards your country and its various citizenry.

This scandal isn't going away. Indeed, this seems to be but its infancy. There can't be any glossing over of this.

.
.

Now is the time to cut our losses, our Party's losses. It is time for you to subsume your own ego and do the right thing for the Party, for the Party's general election chances.

With those videos of a bellowing, ethnically polarizing and hate-filled Jeremiah Wright in the possession of the GOP, there is no need for an 'October Surprise.' I hope that you understand that and fully grasp the consequences of your actions, Senator Obama.

There is but one choice left to you now. Should you fail to avail yourself of it, rest assured that the Democrats' fate in November will forever be laid at your feet.

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Tags: 2008 elections, Barack Obama, Jeremiah Wright (all tags)

Comments

190 Comments

Please hold your breath for a response

from the Obama campaign.  I really mean that.

by bigdcdem 2008-03-16 11:49AM | 0 recs
This is not Watergate.

"What did Obama know about Wright and when did he know it?"

by TomP 2008-03-16 01:33PM | 0 recs
Hey Universal...

was this cross-posted at Redstate?

by Erik 2008-03-16 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: This is not Watergate.

I hope this doesnt go away like most of the media's reporting about anything negative about Obama usually does. This man and his family have left a very bitter taste in my mouth and I for one certainly wont be voting for him. His handling of this whole situation speaks volumes about "his judgement"

by mztower 2008-03-16 11:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

I would kindly ask you to change the pictures at the end unless you want to tell me the following:

1. White rules Black.

  1. Sen. Obama is the prototypical "Angry Black Man".
  2. Michelle Obama is an angry Black woman.

I do not have to tell you how wrong this is. I'm White and I find your choice of pictures highly inappropriate. Maybe I'm over-sensitive, I would be interested in what others think about this.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 11:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

Thanks for removing #1.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 12:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

The "Angry Black Obama" is still kind of disturbing, though.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 12:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

Why? In what way does that add to your diary?

by LandStander 2008-03-16 01:33PM | 0 recs
Obama has had remarkable tempermant

Remember "Shame on you" Hillary? Who's the angry one?

by galwar 2008-03-16 07:36PM | 0 recs
Well prove me wrong

Point me to a video or report where Obama came across screaming and angry (like Hillary did with the comment above).

by galwar 2008-03-17 01:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

This is ridiculous.  Now we can't show pictures of an angry man just because he's black?  An angry man is an angry man, regardless of race.  Who's being racist here?

by Gabriele Droz 2008-03-16 12:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

You can play stupid as much as you like, but it's inappropriate given the racism that still lingers below the surface in America and the fact that a lot of Whites are afraid of the "Angry Black Man". It's a loaded picture, whether you like it or not.

You can show it, but you have to be able to defend it. I don't see why it is needed in this diary, hence, I ask Universal to remove it.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 01:00PM | 0 recs
For you, would there be an acceptable

instance in which you could display a picture of Barrack Obama angry?  Or should it be completely off limits?  

Should we also ban all pictures of HRC that make her appear bitchy or shrill?

Give me a break.

by linc 2008-03-16 01:12PM | 0 recs
Re: For you, would there be an acceptable

You obviously didn't get what I said, it's not about making Obama look good. And no, it is not completely off limits, as I also said. Maybe you should read my post next time.

I really don't see any reason why this picture should be in this diary, plain and simple. I would also reject a bitchy or shrill picture of Clinton if it had nothing to do with the text of a hypothetical diary - but not in the same terms, as I'm not aware that such a picture is loaded in the history of sexism.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 01:32PM | 0 recs
When the truth sounds like tabloid fiction....

I'm sorry, but I really do think the negative looking pictures are a distraction and might keep some people who don't know you from reading the whole page. The reason is, that ALL this stuff about Farraken and Malcom X and 1960 Ayers bombthrowing and sensationalist anti-white racism etc etc -- even though apparently it is TRUE -- unfortunately SOUNDS like flimsy stuff we'd see in a right wing tabloid. It SOUNDS too wild to be true. So it's very hard for me to focus on the material at all. Much less when the pictures look like something a right wing tabloid would use. My reflex is just to close the browser window.

I don't mean to belabor you, just to put it out there for others who like you are making good factual posts. For me, it would be better to have no pictures at all, than pictures that make some people close the window. I'm sorry if this sounds in any way critical of you ... it isn't. Maybe it's an irrational reaction  of mine ... but just in case I'm not alone in it....

by 1950democrat 2008-03-16 03:44PM | 0 recs
Universal,

I notice that you almost go overboard trying to be fair in your diaries.  I think that the posters who criticize you at each point, should take a good look at what THEY are putting out.

Unfortunately it looks like they have lost the ability to reflect on their own comments/behavior.

by Gabriele Droz 2008-03-16 07:05PM | 0 recs
I'm new here-a KOS emigree...

and you come across as eminately reasonable. You seem willing to compromise but you're not a pushover either. You seem to stand your ground when it's important to you. I think that's something to admire and respect and makes for more pleasant discourse all around.

by berkshiretrueblue 2008-03-17 06:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

I must have come in late.  I see no "loaded" pictures.

by Tolstoy 2008-03-16 01:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

The most obvious two have been removed already.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 01:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

marco; Too funny, ridiculous and beyond belief. People can't show angry Obama but CAN show angry Clinton!? All because there is latent racism in the land?! Pullease. Pitiful. This is one reason we can't have this man in the White House; he's too divisive. If you don't want to see Barack Hussein Obama (I know, we're not allowed to use his middle name either) angry, then tell him to drop out of the race like a good Democrate.

I for one don't like looking at his mug, but to each his own.

by India 2008-03-16 03:18PM | 0 recs
Deflecting won't work----the bigot

is the preacher.

He owes many explanations as to his views starting with Farrakhan associations, his own words, and also his character assassinations of Hillary Clinton.

What are his stances on Israel?  On gays?   Does he believe that all white people are bad by virtue of their skin color?

And which part of his core philosophy is embraced by his 20 year spiritual protege Barack Obama?

by chieflytrue 2008-03-16 03:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

Yeah right. Get a grip. I'm not even sure what you mean by what you say.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 01:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

Well, I'm sorry for your anger. You should really go to a therapist at some point.

But let's make one thing clear here: I did not accuse you of racism in any way. I warned you that your pictures are inappropriate - it they were shown like that on Fox news, the whole Democratic party would run amok.

You have not answered my question on why do you want to portray Obama as angry. You simply haven't.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

Your truth is not my truth, hence, it is probably not truth but opinion, shaped by our own biased perception. I'm not going to discuss that with you, that would have no merit, but don't call it truth.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 03:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

Well, I'm not surprised.  You wouldn't, as far as I can tell.  Then again, that's really sad.

by Gabriele Droz 2008-03-17 12:54AM | 0 recs
Re: With All the Wright

With all the Wright racist problems, some here have to audacity to accuse a diarist of putting up racist photos.

Hello! The Mydd Pro-Hillary supporters will be the LEAST of your worries!

This is very serious stuff that can destroy the 2008 Barack Obama campaign.

It was hard enough convincing white america to vote for him in November, this just gave millions upon millions of White voters to "Put a Nail in the coffin".

This will No Doubt give the uncommitted 400 SuperDelegates a very serious reason to pause.

No amount of professional spin can fix this problem.

The best outcome from Obama here is somehow hang-on & win the primary & lose big in the general.

If Obama is the candidate in November,many of us including myself can confidently predict that this lose will be as big or worst than Dukakis in 1988.

by labanman 2008-03-16 09:14PM | 0 recs
That's trollish-crazy kookie---and just

more race baiting.

You can't tell a person to end dialogue here otherwise you as a white person will proclaim them "racist."

What's with you Kos trained people anyway?

Fact is, every question asked is valid.  And there is an actual bigot in one of those pictures, an offensive person who owes Hillary Clinton a personal apology.

And you can't scream "you're a racist" to make it go away.

by chieflytrue 2008-03-16 03:22PM | 0 recs
Re: That's trollish-crazy kookie---and just

I don't see where you picked up that "scream". Maybe you are the one evading the issues here.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 03:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

the  scary black man Obama pic is silly. It hurts your case.

by bigbay 2008-03-16 03:56PM | 0 recs
Questions for Uni

Uni...I have never thought ill of you.  i have worried on ocassion about your increasing level of bitterness, but I always hoped you'd come around.

I am very concerned that you have come unglued. I watched the very same show you did, and didn't come away with anything like the level of concern or paranoic certainty that Barack is some sort of stalking horse liar about Wright or his ties to "black power", as you imply.  

It is GOOD that the Wright tapes vame out NOW rather than in September.  He has answered the call by many of his critics (many here on mydd) to renounce it.  He did so elegantly and forcefully..with a speed and power that Kerry could have used in '04.  This will make Obama a stronger candidate in the general.

Moreover, despite your desire to keep the blinders on, this IS coming to a close.  Nancy Pelosi has drawn a line in the sand, in what I beleive is another attempt by the party elders to send the message that it is time for HRC to suspend her campaign.  Pelosi HAS to keep the party strong and in the majority on order to futher OUR legislation and HER OWN power.  Why would she support a process that clearly supports Obama if she thought HRC was the better candidate or if any of the Wright tapes had legs?

I hope you have a good support system in your life because it truly seems that you have fallen prey to frustration leading to a darkening of the spirit.  You posting of racially charged images at the bottom of your post is particualry worrisome.  The black piece lying prone before the white piece and the pictures of the Obama's seem to send a message that perhaps you are not consciously aware of.  I truly think you need to take a break from mydd, and get yourself together..perhaps spend some time with friends and family.  This whole thing is clearly getting to you.

Please take care.

For the rest of us, let's start to keep the converations and postings better mannered.  I am tired as a dog over the continued ramping up of vitriol...especially this race-based baloney that has NOTHING to do with issues or the things that unite US as PROGRESSIVES!!!  Now that GF and JW are over and done with (both camps answered well enough)..let's concentrate on the future and issues like:

1) Iraq and Iran

  1. The economy
  2. Energy

All of which are related and more relevant...AND they are the thingsthat will unite us!!

by a gunslinger 2008-03-16 12:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Questions for Uni

And all of which require knowledge and experience to address - which Obama does not possess.  He seems like a nice guy and he makes pretty speeches but America is in serious trouble and can't - dare I say WON'T take a chance on a novice.

by Tolstoy 2008-03-16 01:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Questions for Uni

Funny... you'd think that Obama would start losing delegates, rather than gain them...  Yet, he managed to net 10 delegates on Saturday...

How could that happen when voters are leaving?  Please, tell me how this, like the last 10 times you've declared Obama's campaign dead, is any different.

by leshrac55 2008-03-16 01:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Questions for Uni

I think people who go to religious services on a regular basis know that the service leader says all sorts of things with which they disagree.  I've yet to find one who I agree with on even all issues I see as important.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-16 02:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Questions for Uni

gunslinger; now even pictures of your hero are "racially charged"?. get a life man. Your hero is toast. He associates with hate-mongers and attacks patriotic America Democrates. He should drop out. This along with the fact he associates with a guy who is accused of stealing millions of tax-payer dollars in Iraq means he should have dropped out yesterday. His true nature has been revealed. And it ain't pretty. It's toxic.

by India 2008-03-16 03:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Questions for Uni

It amazes me how many people on this site channel Fox News so well. It feels like I'm listening to O'Reilly directly.

by VogonPoet 2008-03-16 04:02PM | 0 recs
They're trying to Deflect

Universal, great diary.  I just rec'd it and hope others will do the same.

Obama supporters try to do everything they can to keep from answering questions.

"You're a racist!!!!!!!" won't work.
"You're unglued!!!!!!!!" won't work.

His 20 year association with this man is outrageous considering Obama has said it is where he's learned about Christianity!  He's the one who said HE WANTS to have a dialogue about religion.

Well, we're all ears now.  Because by no means did I think Obama had a preacher like this, and the church's website, his writing, everything is so racially charged that it begs many questions.

Hillary's taken so much garbage as a woman, if she were a part of a militant organization that thought no man should be able to rule again and said it was the domination of males on this planet that created all violence and therefore made America-YYY chromosome DESERVE to get bombed to smithereens on Sept. 11th everyone would say half the population is male.  

Do you hate all men like your 20 year mentor?  Do you think that those families should suffer because of male aggressive tendencies coming home to roost?  And on.  But it's sooooo true we could say.  Women have suffered and therefore may never answer another question again.  Our hate speech must be tolerated and we must rule.

I wish Hillary could get away with that.  But for some reason, she's above using her gender every single day even while she manages to get unfairly blasted for it.  So save the double talk and Faux Outrage.

Continue Universal.  Don't be intimidated by the "You're a racist!!!!!!" charges.  You're not.  But Reverend Wright and Obama really have a lot more explaining to do on the merits of his words and Obama's words.

Obama.  Do words matter?  And how about actions.  And does $20,000 equal an endorsement of the man's words?

by chieflytrue 2008-03-16 03:45PM | 0 recs
I surely must have missed something?

Did Obama write a personal check to Wright? I didn't get the memo that donating to one's church is the same as endorsing the pastor's words!

by galwar 2008-03-16 07:42PM | 0 recs
Pelosi has no constituency

just saying... I live in SF and few people like or respect her.

by bigbay 2008-03-16 03:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

Ah, yeah this shit is inappropriate. The Willie Horton-esque pictures are disgusting.

by hnic357 2008-03-16 12:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

That's the way team Obama has played it and in a party known for empathy it's worked well.  In a general election forgitaboutit.

by Tolstoy 2008-03-16 01:28PM | 0 recs
I've said that all along..

whether it's crying racism or trying to claim Wright is moderate-none of this will play at all once the GOP gets done. They will quickly have most of America completely afraid of voting for Obama. Either because they are afraid of being governed by someone who sees racism everywhere and it's just too damn much trouble to think about. Or, because they are afraid of what really lurks in Obamas brain since he has spent 20 years being spiritually "advised" by Wright, who will never be viewed as "moderate" by any stretch of the Obama supporters imagination by most Americans.

by berkshiretrueblue 2008-03-17 06:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

He is talking specifically about the pictures, some of them were even inappropriate enough for you to see it. Don't play the victim here, you don't deserve it.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 01:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

And you really believe people won't see through that? How naive is that! I could even accuse you of a lack of patriotism here, since you obviously believe that a majority of Americans are very stupid. But that would be besides the point.

The fact that right-wing nuts and racist will see all kinds of horrible things about Obama or Hillary does not justify, in my view, that we should do the same thing in the Democratic primary. If you don't get that, then I'm really sorry for you.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 02:43PM | 0 recs
When the nomination is settled, then we can stop

While they are both in the race, we need to consider what the GOP will say about each if he/she becomes nominee. As soon as the nomination is settled, we can drop that subject (or start defending the nominee).

That's another reason Obama should drop out as soon as he can, to stop this bleeding (as well as to save himself more damage; the longer he stays in, the more stuff Fox etc will be digging for). Once this is old news and the GOP focuses on Hillary, then Obama can get out of the spotlight and start damage control in preparation for 2016).

by 1950democrat 2008-03-16 03:58PM | 0 recs
Re: When the nomination is settled, then we can st

That is your view, mine is that Clinton should have dropped out after Wisconsin to help heal the party. We won't agree on this so let's not even talk about it.

However, you fail to make a point why the attacks on Obama would in any way be more damaging than the attacks on Clinton - both will be portrayed as America-hating tax-and-spend liberals in any case.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 04:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for

I dont really think these picture are "racist" but you might consider changing them?

However, the press feels very comfortable showing HRC looking awful and they seem ok with this.

david

by giusd 2008-03-16 12:07PM | 0 recs
Is this the silver bullet?
I don't think so, but I'd be willing to say the media may cover the what, 4 times Rev Wright said something that could be viewed as divisive, more than they have covered similar statements by Fallwell, Robertson, Huckabee and Hagee combined.
And you know I don't plan on voting for Rev Wright.
by Drewid 2008-03-16 12:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Is this the silver bullet?
Someone just accused me of being over here to stir up trouble, heh.
I haven't come to this site since like 2004, but I'll give it this. It is quieter over here, and that can be good. Not as many people screaming at the top of their keyboards.
by Drewid 2008-03-16 12:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

Agree very much with the content, not so much the pics. They seem a bit over the top and will just distract from the excellent questions you ask.

by xanamanax 2008-03-16 12:11PM | 0 recs
pictures

The pictures do look distracting. When you  have time, what about replacing them with the picture of Obama and Wright together, and stills or videos of Wright giving his loud sermons. And perhaps of Obama and Sharpton together, captioned with a quote from Sharpton threatening riots.

by 1950democrat 2008-03-16 12:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

Quick someone, everyone ... Rearrange the Deck Chairs!

"Social Gospel" is the assertion of this wolf in sheep's clothing here, someone mail a New Testament to Trinity UCC. The "theological" rhetoric out of that "church" is more Farrakan/Nation of Islam than Christ/Christianity.

Rev Wright is a stone thrower as too many around Obama have proven themselves to be.  He doesn't debate pro's con's requirements or lines of reason. He is a vituperative, self-righteous caster of the first and the cascade of all the following stones that end up killing some St. Stephen. And that's merely the tone of his "sermonizing".

The content itself is no Sermon on the Mount. It's the rabble demanding a crucifixion.

Give us Barabas! Crucify the other! That's the essential message of this man, that's the church of Obama.

The Titanic took it's time sinking oddly enough, but it sank. Obama's sunk, anything he does henceforth is merely rearranging deck chairs.

by autumnal 2008-03-16 12:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

Hey, um, let's leave St. Stephen out of this.  I don't want you to rock my world in that sense.

by Steve M 2008-03-16 12:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

most welcome, and thank you for your Posts most heartily.

by autumnal 2008-03-16 12:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

You are getting way ahead of the game with your proclamations of how the electorate will react.  We can make predictions, but we can never really know.

Let's see if we can approach this in a more scientific way.

1) Do you agree that the issue is getting widespread publicity right now?  In other words, if these videos would turn off voters in 527 ads in October, they should be turning off voters right now, right?

2) Do you expect that if previously sympathetic voters are turning against Obama as a consequence of this issue, it would show up in the polls?  Would you expect it to show up in Democratic primary polls against Clinton, or in hypothetical GE matchup polls against McCain, or both?

3) How long a time period do you think is necessary for us to look at the polls and make a judgment about whether this is sinking Obama?  One week?  Two weeks?  Let's pick a time period and make that the benchmark.

by Steve M 2008-03-16 12:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

I am not claiming that the voters react scientifically.

I am claiming that we have scientific tools by which we can gauge the voters' reaction.

Are you really saying that polls can tell us nothing about the public's reaction to this?  Come on, if it's really such a deal-killer, you'd expect Obama to plummet in national polls by the end of next week, wouldn't you?  Everyone is seeing these videos.

by Steve M 2008-03-16 12:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

The videos of Rev. Wright are far more direct than any sly verbal insinuation of a link between Iraq and 9/11.

If you're saying that these videos will not have salience with people until they repeatedly sink in over time, I must respectfully disagree with you.

To my mind, either we see a move in the polls over the next week or two, or Obama has somehow managed to defuse this issue.

by Steve M 2008-03-16 01:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig
I was horrified watching those videos, and they are sticking in my mind. I don't think this will pass over. In my opinion there won't be many people voting for him any more other than the die-hards who feel he can do no wrong.
Imagine listening to them daily in the general!
by georgiast 2008-03-16 02:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

I am just disappointed you are not willing to agree to a test of your thesis. :)

by Steve M 2008-03-16 02:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

I think this misunderstands how such material gets used.

While it may be that the bare videos will move some votes in a poll, the way such things work in the right wing machine is quite different, and far more systematic.

Underlying narratives get introduced, such as the issue of Obama's patriotism vs the patriotism of McCain. The segments are "interpreted" in the light of that narrative. McCain surrogates or supporters start to get that message out to people, with surrounding information, including, for example, visuals that contrast Obama and McCain. Relentlessly, day after day, week after week, the message is pounded home: ads, surrogates, opinion pieces, talk shows, blogs, radio shows, etc.

At the end of this very directed process, it takes very little basic substance to make the underlying narrative work (witness the remarkable effectiveness of the Willie Horton ad, based on a single incident vaguely related to Dukakis' career). But if the material at the core is inherently powerful -- and Jeremiah Wright's is -- the concerted effect of all this is going to be overwhelming.

My underlying point is that, absent this carefully orchestrated effect, it's not going to be possible to "poll" the real impact of Jeremiah Wright. We can only estimate based on previous experiences how it would play out.

I will simply say that I regard it as the single worst and most damaging thing I have ever seen in Presidential politics. I don't see how it doesn't destroy Obama's chances. If he were up 15-20% in the polls, and were otherwise regarded as a pretty well known quantity, then I could see him surviving it.

As it is, I don't see how he does so.

by frankly0 2008-03-16 07:17PM | 0 recs
seeing the effects

The media is playing it soft with the videos, very soft.  When they are covering the story they are burying it down a little, showing perhaps the "N word" segment, paraphrasing a few of the others, using the Obama talking points to defuse, drying it up with wonky talking heads and then immediately switching to Ferraro and/or McCain's bad pastoral support.

I doubt we will see much penetration yet to the general public.  It's out there sure, but it hasn't been pressed.  I could see it fading from the public consciousness, until the 527s start rolling with it, of course.

I think the media is tip-toeing with the story (except FOX of course) all concerned with the political implications and not the deeper ones.

Already, even here, this has been spun around into an "unfortunate association" story (as it was heavily on CNN this morning) without daring to ask the real questions that give this story weight.

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-03-16 02:18PM | 0 recs
timing

Good questions, but we need to look at when and how the Wright videos are reaching different demographics, and in what form.

Obama latte drinkers who only watch talking heads, may see only sanitized versions and dismiss it. Nice people who only read the NYT may have scarcely heard of it yet, and may dismiss it as  fiction -- till the actual videos start turning up on their friends' email lists. Limbaugh listeners are getting the details but probably just saying "I told you so all along."

To get your answers, telephone polls might be better than waiting for primary results, because of the "Dem for a Day", vote for the worser candidate thing.

Time will let the MSM watchers forget -- but will also let the videos multiply through  talk radio and emails and websites.

by 1950democrat 2008-03-16 03:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

Wow Steve M. I have a new found respect for you ;). I'm an Obama supporter and have pretty much been diametrically opposed to anything you've said about him thus far. But this comment makes me question whether I've unfairly short-changed you to some degree.

by pitahole 2008-03-16 06:05PM | 0 recs
Great Diary, Universal!

One would have to be a complete moron to believe the bullshit Obama is selling about not knowing Wright's views for the past 20 years.  

I am wondering if the media will continue to whistle past this or will they really investigate it?  From what I've seen so far, I have my doubts --  he seems to be getting away with it.  You don't seem to think so and I sure hope you're right, because there is no way in the world that he is going to beat McCain.

by markusd 2008-03-16 12:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Great Diary, Universal!

The mainstream media doesn't matter that much. Fox will run this for 6 months straight. It's about bringing out their base, and driving up his negatives with independents.

We already saw in New Hampshire that Indies will go with Mc Cain in a crunch, and abandon Obama.

by bigbay 2008-03-16 04:03PM | 0 recs
Obama should bail now

Rightly or wrongly, I think these videos seal Obama's fate with swing voters in November.

Things like the Rezko issues bore ordinary people, and it's easy for Obama to spin them as harmless. But actually seeing and hearing these videos of Wright and also videos of Obama defending Wright -- is something understandable and conclusive for ordinary people.

Voters who do not watch talking heads or read blogs, still listen to GOP radio while driving -- not just voters  driving pickup trucks, but soccer moms also. So Wright's actual voice and Obama's defenses of him WILL get out to base Democratic voters, however inattentive they usually are.

The party insiders who have been supporting Obama should quietly start leaving his sinking ship now. One face-saver would be to find reasons for supporting the MI/FL delegations, or at least supporting mail-in revotes there.

by 1950democrat 2008-03-16 12:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama should bail now

I think this has lost Obama the votes of low-income all-Democrats-hate-America voters. I just don't think he had many of them in the future.

I think, after such a firm denunciation of the remarks, and with the breadth of the real issues in this campaign, the rest of the voters are far smarter than that.

by Texas Gray Wolf 2008-03-16 12:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama should bail now

Those folks go to church. And they probably have heard their own pastors say some pretty wild things themselves.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-16 02:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama should bail now

I think Obama will lose many of the pickup truck drivers  and Reagan-democrats that Dean brought back in by his excellent 50-state strategy.

Also a lot of plain yellow dog Democrats and others who do normally vote Democrat but tend to switch or stay home when the Dems run someone who seems too wierd (like McGovern in 72) or otherwise questionable (like Mondale, Kerry, Dukakis, etc).

Obama probably wouldn't bring out many of these anyway, but these videos circulating on email will reach people who might otherwise have gone along giving the Dem nominee the benefit of the doubt.

by 1950democrat 2008-03-16 03:24PM | 0 recs
That sounds pretty true

Plus, I've seen some women find it disgusting how they trashed Ferraro who had a LOOSE association with Hillary and are now saying------but what Obama's preacher with whom he had a 20 year mentor relationship is off limits with what he said about Hillary, the country, and many other things.

Hillary=David Duke because of Ferraro (Olbermann)
Obama= Shhhhhh

This double standard needs to be pointed out.

by chieflytrue 2008-03-16 03:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama should bail now

I think your prediction is more hope than reality.

by BDM 2008-03-16 12:59PM | 0 recs
If you are so sure

why not put in some dough to back it up? Me thinks it's wishful thinking.

by galwar 2008-03-16 07:49PM | 0 recs
I predict Obama will answer these

questions as part of his ongoing stump speech and across all Pennsylvania, Indiana and North Carolina.

I predict Obama will challenge Clinton to have a candid discussion about race and religion.

What will he say? I dunno yet but his 2004 Convention speech is a good place to start.

But he will tackle this topic head on using the frames HE chooses, not the frames offered by Universal and the American people will decide.

In other news the UCC is already fighting back and I also predict that if Obama loses the nomination because of exaggerations and false innuendo derived from taking tiny clips of another man's sermons out of context, John McCain will decry the politics of personal destruction as practiced by supporters of Hillary Clinton (such as this diary) and when John McCain asserts that Rezko and Wright were unfairly exaggerated by Clinton's campaign, he will drink Clinton's milkshake and win the general election.

by Bill White 2008-03-16 12:37PM | 0 recs
Obama is aiming higher than POTUS

He is looking to change the American narrative and he wants to include everyone.

Yes, we can disagree about Reverend Wright and his black liberation theology. I reject that theology myself.

But remember, Obama has crafted successful legislative accomplishments with Tom Coburn (budget transparency) and Dick Lugar (nuclear proliferation). If Obama is an angry black at heart, he has done a very good job of fooling two staunch Republicans.

= =

I've long approached Karl Marx in the same manner I approach black liberation theology -- Marx did do a good job of seeing the evils of unfettered capitalism however his "cure" based on a dictatorship of the proletariat was worse than the disease. Nonetheless, Marx simply was correct about the abuses of capitalism (I offer Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" as evidence)

Reverend Wright is wrong to advocate anything that promotes black hatred of white people. However! White America (of which I am a part) has consistently screwed over black people. That cannot be denied, either.

Therefore, while I certainly cannot support the more radical parts of Wright's apparent agenda, I've started reading his other sermons and there is lots of genuinely good stuff there.

Racial healing (tikkun olam) will not happen if we refuse to acknowledge legitimate black anger even as we reject solutions based on hate.

= =

Can Obama communicate this message in a manner the people of PA, or NC, or IN can grasp? We will see.

by Bill White 2008-03-16 02:14PM | 0 recs
More on why Obama likes Wright

Here's some more on why Obama likes Wright.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Artic les/bobamasunlikelypoliticaledu.html
[Obama] longed for an experience that connected him to the civil rights era. "In the sit-ins, the marches, the jailhouse songs," he wrote in Dreams, "I saw the African-American community becoming more than just the place where you'd been born or the house where you'd been raised. Through organizing, through shared sacrifice, membership had been earned." Obama wanted to join the club.

Look how Wright and Sharpton fit with Obama's `community organizing' methods in Chicago. Obama gets people mad and threatening riots to get his way, as Sharpton is threatening riots at Denver.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Artic les/bobamasunlikelypoliticaledu.html
[I]n Chicago's South Side, his teachers were schooled in a style of organizing devised by Saul Alinsky, the radical University of Chicagotrained social scientist. At the heart of the Alinsky method is the concept of "agitation"-making someone angry enough about the rotten state of his life that he agrees to take action to change it; or, as Alinsky himself described the job, to "rub raw the sores of discontent."
....
[Obama] was a natural, the undisputed master of agitation [....]

---------------

Elsewhere Obama has stated that he sees his political career as just another means of `community organizing' on a larger scale.

by 1950democrat 2008-03-16 12:40PM | 0 recs
Re: More on why Obama likes Wright

"DiscoverTheNetworks (DTN) is a database/search website meant to track "the left" and terrorists, with an implicit connection between the two, with some similarities to SourceWatch. It is a project of the David Horowitz Freedom Center. DiscoverTheNetworks was launched on February 15, 2005, but Horowitz claims it was two-years under development."

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?tit le=DiscoverTheNetworks

Not sure how or why any self-respecting Democrat would cite that website as a non-biased source of information, but whatever floats your boat... if your goal was to expose right-wing talking points I guess it's a legitimate point, but I'm not sure that was your intent.

by thatpurplestuff 2008-03-16 01:46PM | 0 recs
Re: More on why Obama likes Wright

You might also recall that Hillary Clinton's senior thesis was on Alinsky.  He really was not the crazy radical that site pretends he was.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-16 02:34PM | 0 recs
Re: More on why Obama likes Wright

Hillary did a thesis which mostly disagreed with Alinsky. She DID more or less call him a crazy radical -- saying something about it being nice to get away from interviewing him and him back to rationality. (He offered her an advantageous job but she turned him down.)

by 1950democrat 2008-03-16 02:56PM | 0 recs
Well done. Thanks.

by Gloria 2008-03-16 12:49PM | 0 recs
Matt Yglesis argues...

...that Obama joined Wright's Church only to belong to a local black church while he started his community-based Illinois political career...and that now, he's not as involved because he's running for POTUS so this church won't, in essence, help him (no shit!).

But Obama began his POTUS run in 2004 - right after his election to the Senate (although he claimed then not to be ready for such an adventure).

If he did it for political reasons, he would have skillfully and quietly BEGUN to disassociate himself from Wright and (maybe) even the church.  It didn't have to be an abrupt departure...but at least the signals would now be obvious.  They are not.

By 2004 Obama knew of Wright's "boneheaded" 2001 sermons.  But he's continued on AND, now that the Obama's are rich, they donated $22,500 in 2006 to support the continuation of Wright's messages of anger and hate.

by Shazone 2008-03-16 12:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Matt Yglesis argues...

On what basis do you believe that Obama knew of the 2001 sermon in 2004? I'm sure that the rest of the world would love to know of your proof of it; I know I would.

Are you aware that TUCC does an enormous amount of charity work in the Chicago area? And that donations to the church go into that work, not Wright's pockets (Wright is not a wealthy man).

If Obama knew about the sermons beforehand, if he was the sly, conniving politician those not in favor of him like to paint him has, he would've broken off connection with TUCC many years ago.

So either you have to assume that one of the brightest people in the Senate (by a number of measures) was so stupid to believe that speeches published on the internet, in the age of gotcha politics and You-Tube, would never come to light, or you have to assume he's in fact a true believer in the darkest part of Wright's views.

Either that, or you can believe what the facts as reported suggest: that Wright delivered a handful of these sermons over a career of hundreds. That he was a very effective spiritual leader who occasionally (very, very occasionally) strayed into a particularly inflammatory social gospel, but largely did not. That Obama respects him for his good works and spirituality but denounces the inflammatory social and political sermons.

I know it's not popular among people who desperately want to find something to bring Obama down, but there's a principle that it's usually best to look to the simplest answer first. And the simplest answer, the one that fits with every bit of the known facts, is the one that supports Obama's position.

by Texas Gray Wolf 2008-03-16 01:18PM | 0 recs
I was commenting on an argument...

...that Matt Yglesias was making.  And I'm sure that Wright's Church is very community-spirited (that's the point Yglesias was basing his argument on).

But I don't buy the fact that we should accept that he is moving on because his goals have changed - which is what Yglesias is saying.  My point is that if this were true, he would have started to leavde 4 years ago when he decided to run for POTUS.

I don't buy that he has moved on - and Obama's distancing himself at this late date tells me that he hasn't and is only using "words" to hopefully remove him from the hot seat on this one.

Obamabots will believe him.  I do not.

by Shazone 2008-03-16 01:31PM | 0 recs
Re: I was commenting on an argument...

People who look at evidence and use reason to analyze it will believe him, in the absence of any new evidence to the contrary.

People who wish to believe what they wish to believe, despite the evidence, will not.

I don't see any major difference here in people who chose not to believe Obama, despite plenty of reasons to do so unrelated to personal credibility, and people who chose not to believe Clinton on Whitewater or Vince Foster, despite plenty of reasons to do so unrelated to personal credibility.

Yes, this is a newer issue, and yes, something may come out that will undermine Obama's position. However, I haven't seen any tendency for the media, over the last decade or so, to hide negative information, and they've had quite a lot of time to find it out, if it were there.

by Texas Gray Wolf 2008-03-16 01:40PM | 0 recs
What eveidence are you using...

to apply your reasoning?  Obama's denial?  

OK, I'll take that evidence, and apply my reasoning.  When first asked about Tony Rezko (in a Janury debate), he answered that he had only done 5 hours of legal work for him.

But that's not true and Obama has - late last week - added more details to his relationship...$250,000 details to be exact - to his prior admissions that Rezko toured a real estate property with him ( I won't add in Rezko purchase, etc.) and also said that Tony Rezko has been a friend to 17 years and is still his friend.

Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

by Shazone 2008-03-16 01:52PM | 0 recs
Re: What eveidence are you using...

I agree with your rebuttal.  I grew up with a constant admonition from my mother that when I tell a lie, I end up making up more lies to cover that one lie.

by nooblahma 2008-03-16 02:30PM | 0 recs
Re: What eveidence are you using...

Thanks...wish my spelling was better, but sometimes my fingers get ahead of my brain!

by Shazone 2008-03-16 02:48PM | 0 recs
Obama out of touch?

One thing clear here -- OBAMA HAS NOT BEEN VETTED. We're lucky it's happening now instead of after he  got the nomination.

The Right Wingers have the tapes, and they're checking against his schedule, so we may have more facts soon, both about the content of all the sermons and about Obama's attendance.

You make good points: ignorance is probably the largest factor. But WHY did he remain ignorant? He's been running for office in mixed constituency since at least 2004, iirc. He was aware of some problem; why didn't Axelrod long ago vet the rest of the sermons, or talk to others in the congregation? Either Obama and his handlers are just plain not ready for prime time -- or there's a serious disconnect somewhere. Perhaps between Obama's words about the church and his actual participation, or between his judgement of what is "not controversial" and that of the US public....

Another character/judgement issue here might be stubbornness and a sort of compartmentalization and/or short-term thinking. For short-term gain among state senators 'across the aisle', Obama voted 'present' on an abortion bill, which will stay on his record permently. For short-term gain in grabbing Alice Palmer's state senate seat, it's on his permanent record that he got his start by knocking ALL his opponents off the ballot. The Palmer case also shows him being stubborn and refusing better solutions, which I can see applying here too: stubbornly supporting Wright and refusing to look into the question (or maybe he was channeling Bush Jr ;-). Also perhaps Obama was relying on the media giving him a pass on anything that might come up -- which he cannot expect from Fox in the November contest.

The Dem base in their pickup trucks will never hear about Palmer or the 'present' votes (much less Obama's excuses for those actions), but they'll sure hear Wright's own sermon clips played over and over on the pickup radio by GOP talk hosts, and Obama's statements in support of Wright: 20 years, marriage ceremony, christening. The big glaring fact here is that for 20 years he's been mixed up with something that can scarcely be explained to his own followers, much less the public who will get only the basic facts -- with a GOP slant.

This is too loud and colorful to be filtered out by the MSM talking heads. People who aren't even rightwingers will be emailing these clips.

Fair or not, if Obama ever had a chance against McCain, he's lost it now. So he doesn't take the Dem party down with him, we need to let the air out of his candidacy, perhaps starting in a face-saving way by seating the FL/MI delegations or approving a re-votes. The sooner he's out, the sooner the RW will quiet down about Wright. Then it's possible that in 2016 the public will have forgotten and Obama will have been in another church for 8 years, and he can try again with a chance of winning.

by 1950democrat 2008-03-16 02:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

+10 in Iowa yesterday and up in both tracking polls today.

Don't be so quick to decide how other people see this.  

by politicsmatters 2008-03-16 12:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

Gone done 1 to 4 percentage points, which still leaves him well above Clinton. And I thought the Clinton campaign's view was that it only matters what Democrats think, anyway?

Unless there are further, and major, revelations about this, this is likely to be the worst of the impact. The information about this was widely distributed on Friday. Negative information always travels faster than positive, so the polls would reflect the scandal before the denunciations. In addition, Obama's polling always drops slightly on weekends, week after week.

Unless we get major new revelations over the next week, expect to see Obama's polling numbers go back to where they were, or likely to go up slightly -- this has had the effect of making the belief that Obama is a Muslim go away, and that was probably doing more damage to his polling than this will ever do.

by Texas Gray Wolf 2008-03-16 01:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

Last match up poll's that I have seen is that he is doing no worse than Clinton against McCain.

by BDM 2008-03-16 01:12PM | 0 recs
Even if you get your candidate....

through the nomination process, you still have to deal with this in the GE - and you know that it will rise again and in ways that you probably haven't yet imagined.

Fore warned is fore armed...and so far Obama's denials have been pretty weak (I know, you think they'r egreat just because he said them).

by Shazone 2008-03-16 02:51PM | 0 recs
They've gone underground ever since....

Super Tuesday and the Super Help they provided to Barry.

Even Obama knows that with friends like those, who needs enemies!

by Shazone 2008-03-16 12:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

yeah, the angry Obama picture actually diminishes your words effect.

by Zorkon 2008-03-16 01:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Other Minister's talking about America's sin's

Martin Luther King JR. A SERMON

And don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine, messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with judgment, and it seems that I can hear God saying to America, "You're too arrogant! And if you don't change your ways, I will rise up and break the backbone of your power, and I'll place it in the hands of a nation that doesn't even know my name. Be still and know that I'm God."

What would people say today about his sermon?

by BDM 2008-03-16 01:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Other Minister's talking about America's sin's

They'd say it's not the same as asking God to "damn America." (Which any believing Christian knows is a sin against the commandments.)

by Susie from Philly 2008-03-16 01:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Where are the amigos?

Chris Dodd and Chuck Schumacher defended Obama ON fOX TODAY WITH cHRIS wALLACE.

by BDM 2008-03-16 01:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Where are the amigos?

Chris Dodd and Chuck Shumer did not do a very good job of defending him. They tried - but how do you defend the indefensible?

by georgiast 2008-03-16 02:21PM | 0 recs
Anyone ask if they defended Ferraro

and Hillary for being blamed for Ferraro's words?

by chieflytrue 2008-03-16 04:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Questions for Obama

This is far from over, because there is absolutely no reason to believe that all the videos have been released.  And I imagine it will be no more than another day before reports and photos are filed that show Obama in attendance at Wright's most racist harangues.  Then the recent attempt by Obama---I had no knowledge of this--to subvert the truth will be on full display.

The Democratic party cannot survive this candidate. He should drop out now.

by miriam 2008-03-16 01:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Questions for Obama

The press has been on this for months. Do you seriously think that we wouldn't heard more, if there was more to hear? On what basis would you think that?

by Texas Gray Wolf 2008-03-16 01:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Questions for Obama

Are you a fortune teller who know's that this will come out or is this your wish.

by BDM 2008-03-16 01:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Questions for Obama

yep thats going to happen.  You want him to drop out anyways your just all to happy to point to this as a reason why.  I expect you to be even more angry in a week or so when this has faded out to only chatter from die-hard Clinton lovers/Obama haters.

by affratboy22 2008-03-16 07:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama

By "his official campaign staff", what you mean is that Wright was part of Obama's "African-American Religious Leadership Council". This was effectively a list of endorsers; it had absolutely no role nor function in the campaign. You're attempting to make it sound as if Wright had some role in the campaign. He didn't, and never did.

The media has known about these speeches for months (I did too, and I heard about it through the media). They've combed through all of Wright's sermons. They found a handful of sermons with these messages over a 20-year career.

Yes, I think it's entirely reasonable to believe that a large number of people never heard any of thse remarks, including Obama. It's exceedingly clear to anyone who looks at the evidence that these were not ordinary, routine sermons, but extraordinary ones, rarely delivered.

On the other hand, there's also a large volume of evidence that suggests that the usual sermons of Wright were much more concerned with spirituality, doing good works, personal growth, etc. Yes, he did touch on social gospel issues, and yes, he does believe that black people in America have a raw deal. I suspect most of those swing voters you're concern trolling about believe that too.

If there were any evidence whatsoever that Wright did this on a usual basis; if there was not such a large volume of evidence to suggest that Wright was a very positive spiritual leader; if there were not such a large number of good works performed by Wright and TUCC in Chicago, then you might have a case for claiming that Obama has done something wrong.

Yes, the story has some legs. One of the things those legs give it is that Obama's denunciations of the remarks will be heard over. And over. And over again. Not denials, denunciations. It's easy for voters to ignore denials, which is why Clinton is such a terrible easy target for swiftboating. It's much harder for them to ignore denunciations; studies of communication bear this out. Those are treated as new facts rather than denials of old facts.

There's already been enough polling data to tell us that, at the point of highest public consciousness of these remarks (and you yourself point out that the story has been splashed around pretty much everywhere) and least coverage of the facts, and the denunciations, that this hasn't amounted to much of a change at all in Obama's popularity, positive or negative ratings, or preferability to Clinton in the General Election. If there was going to be significant damage from this, it would already be done.

Yes, if someone produces video of Obama at the 9/11 sermon, or the Katrina sermon, that would be different. Those sermons are incindiary, and it would also be proof of a lie on his part (and we all know the public hates coverups far worse than they do a misdeed followed by an apology). If that happens then Obama may indeed be damaged by this.

In the meantime, he's probably lost all the votes of low-income Democrats-hate-America voters. I doubt he can get them back. Of course, I doubt he had them before. It's pretty obvious, from the polls and from the turnout at rallys held in conservative, right-leaning areas recently, that voters are not holding this against him. He's not exactly run away from this; he's been denouncing Wright's statements widely and publicly.

I know you want this to be Obama's "Monkey Business". I know you really, really want it to be that. It's the only way he gets out of Clinton's way. The problem is, it's not going to happen. And while that may be bad for Clinton supporters, and bad for John McCain, it's good for most everyone else.

by Texas Gray Wolf 2008-03-16 01:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

I'd like to know more about the production of the DVDs.  How they were paid for?  Did Obama buy them?  

As a major contributor to his church, it's possible that he was involved at some level -- was he?

by katiebird 2008-03-16 01:12PM | 0 recs
Clinton

Is it just me or is the fact that he said "Clinton ain't never been called a N----" more enraging than US of KKK A?

Maybe thats just my "virulent feminism" creeping up?

F/t/r - I am a male feminist.

by sepulvedaj3 2008-03-16 01:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton

Well, has Hillary ever been called one?

And, for those who pretend that Dr. King was not radical, nor did not use racially charged language, see this selection from his justly famous Letter from a Birmingham Jail:

Perhaps it is easy for those who have never felt the stinging darts of segregation to say, "Wait." But when you have seen vicious mobs lynch your mothers and fathers at will and drown your sisters and brothers at whim; when you have seen hate filled policemen curse, kick and even kill your black brothers and sisters; when you see the vast majority of your twenty million Negro brothers smothering in an airtight cage of poverty in the midst of an affluent society; when you suddenly find your tongue twisted and your speech stammering as you seek to explain to your six year old daughter why she can't go to the public amusement park that has just been advertised on television, and see tears welling up in her eyes when she is told that Funtown is closed to colored children, and see ominous clouds of inferiority beginning to form in her little mental sky, and see her beginning to distort her personality by developing an unconscious bitterness toward white people; when you have to concoct an answer for a five year old son who is asking: "Daddy, why do white people treat colored people so mean?"; when you take a cross county drive and find it necessary to sleep night after night in the uncomfortable corners of your automobile because no motel will accept you; when you are humiliated day in and day out by nagging signs reading "white" and "colored"; when your first name becomes "nigger," your middle name becomes "boy" (however old you are) and your last name becomes "John," and your wife and mother are never given the respected title "Mrs."; when you are harried by day and haunted by night by the fact that you are a Negro, living constantly at tiptoe stance, never quite knowing what to expect next, and are plagued with inner fears and outer resentments; when you are forever fighting a degenerating sense of "nobodiness"--then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait. There comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over, and men are no longer willing to be plunged into the abyss of despair. I hope, sirs, you can understand our legitimate and unavoidable impatience. You express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, at first glance it may seem rather paradoxical for us consciously to break laws. One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."

by politicsmatters 2008-03-16 02:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton

Of course Hillary has never been called a `n***' but she has been called a cunt, a witch, a bitch, a hag, and about any other kind of name you can think to call a woman, as Universal points out. You are in some major sort of denial if you don't see that and the fact that Wright feeds into that whole sexist garbage rather than making a meaningful point about race in today's America.

In none of my comments nor most of them I've read have we pretended that MLK was not a radical so you can burn that straw man and stop the whole "obviously you don't understand race in American" sermon. Of course we do. But past injustice does not validate present injustice, and Wright is more than unjust.

by bently2 2008-03-16 03:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton
Agreed. My mother also was born before women could vote in the U.S. - that's how recent it was. If anyone is interested in the opinion of someone from another country - Barack doesn't have the experience to be President. The rest is incomprehensible to a non native-born American.
Also, I'm old enough to remember they hated Jackie Kennedy too to the wonder of the international community.
by ellend818 2008-03-16 04:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton

Universal, please stop adding fuel to the fire.

by pitahole 2008-03-16 05:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

Excellent diary. Well researched and documented.

It's October in March.

A good thing we have this information now rather than after he was anointed.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-16 01:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri
Obama is very smart, he saw this coming and he will handle this.
He is our best chance in the general election. This will be his test and he will come through it.
by IsaacM 2008-03-16 02:01PM | 0 recs
And I very heartly disagree with you

Reading the comments from folks like you, one would think that Obama himself said these horrible things. I challenge you to this: Point me to one statement from Obama where he has been divisive as Wright has. What I have seen from Obama is someone who has great temperment despite everything being thrown at him. Contrast that with the different moods ("honor to be here with you", "Shame on you") of Hillary and the ever so hot-tempered McCain.

by galwar 2008-03-16 07:57PM | 0 recs
Serious questions for Universal

OK, so Obama's preacher hates America.  (That is not true, of course, but let's assume that for the moment.)

Does this mean that you, as a progressive, will vote for someone who has no plan for health care, who has said it is OK to be in Iraq for 100 years, and who will make the Bush tax cuts to the wealthy permanent?

Does this mean that we need to investigate the spiritual adviser of every candidate for President?    And, clearly if that adviser says hateful things about America than that candidate is not fit to be President?  

Finally, can you point to anything Obama has said and/or done that reflects the hatred of America in the statements by Wright?

by MoDem 2008-03-16 02:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious questions for Universal

Those states have not been disenfranchised by Obama.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-16 02:39PM | 0 recs
Dude, what are you smoking?

How about Hillary's lawsuit on Texas caucuses? How about Hillary's none of the states that Obama won count because Democrats don't win those states in the general? How about Hillary's comment on the Michigan primary (with only her name on the ballot) that is was fair?

by galwar 2008-03-16 08:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious questions for Universal

What kind of a BS rationalization is that?

by marcotom 2008-03-16 02:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious questions for Universal

Why do you say Obama's spiritual advisor does not hate America? It seemed pretty clear to me that he does after listening to that video.

But you elided two things together in your post. You assume that if Obama gets th nomination we won't vote for him because of Wright. Wrong. Most of us will vote for him, but now we are less and less convinced he can win against McCain because he is likely to lose the independents. Most people stay with a church because they support its values.You and Obama can say that's not true in this case, but I doubt most people will believe it.

As for how Obama himself feels about America, I am sure he feels positive in many ways, but that doesn't mean he holds progressive values or will be supportive on the issues in the way I want them supported, particularly in education.

by bently2 2008-03-16 03:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

You guys act like this is some big scandal. It's not. If there's anyone out there in America who doesn't understand why black folks would be at least a tad angry about their situation in America, they will never vote for Barack Obama for President anyways. In the meantime, Obama gets to reinforce his Christian faith, his desire and ability to bring people together across racial lines and his personal triumph above the bitterness and anger that has infected so many others of his race here in America.

It's not a scandal; it's just a part of the process of racial reconciliation here in America that is playing such a profound role in Obama's campaign.

by dmc2 2008-03-16 02:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

Excellent post. Couldn't have said it better myself.

by IsaacM 2008-03-16 02:19PM | 0 recs
Serious Legwork for Redstate.com

Well put dmc. I just watched the interview on Fox. It's pretty obvious to anyone who isn't a rabid Clintonite that Obama is very grateful to Wright for introducing him to his faith, and also very clear that he does not share in the divisive "Farrakhannish" beliefs that Wright holds.

Hillary is sinking like a stone, and Wright/Rezko/HeLooksAngrySometimes is all her supporters "have", so just let the tantrum run and get some home improvement done, it will be "all better" soon and the healing can begin.

by defibialater 2008-03-16 02:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

Wright is more than a "tad" angry, and most African Americans, whatever level of anger they hold, don't spew his level of hatred.  That video will never go away and will likely be joined by others in the weeks ahead. People who support Obama may find that it doesn't affect their positions, but it would behoove them to acknowledge that it is and will be damaging to the wider population's opinion of him. He is running on the idea of bringing everyone together, after all, and it's hard to reconcile the rhetoric of his 20-year spiritual advisor with "bringing people together."

by bently2 2008-03-16 03:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Where are the amigos?
There really is no need to "race to defend" Obama. He handled it quite well himself yesterday.
I could see it being a problem for him if his ( Obama's) past speeches reflect the beliefs of Mr. Wright, but it's pretty obvious that that is not the case. And as far as the general, McCain would be a fool to attempt to flay Obama with this given his own connections to nutty religious folk.
Sorry, but this dawg just don't hunt. And that's why this kind of post doesn't elicit much more than a yawn. But I am sure the wingers appreciate you doing their dirty work for them.
by defibialater 2008-03-16 02:18PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain on Obama-Wright

Actually, it's because he doesn't want to be criticized for some of his associations.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-16 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain on Obama-Wright

In what weird logic does that statement make sense? He defends him because he is a man of honor, even though wrong on almost all issues. And because he has his own skeletons on the pulpit.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 02:48PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain on Obama-Wright

I cannot see into grandpa McCain's mind, so there is no way for me to measure how honorable he is. Perhaps you are psychic - if so, thanks for sharing your insights.

The main reason McCain is not attacking Obama, and indeed has offered tepid support for Obama is because that is the way swift boating is done. Look no further than the eponymous scandal to see it in action. The "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth" were free of any easily demonstrable connection to the RNC or the Bush campaign. Bush's only comment on the entire scandal was to say he was sure Kerry's service in Vietnam had been honorable.

The candidate does not need to get involved - it keeps the candidate's hands clean, and it makes the scandal stick better if it seems to come from independent "concerned" citizens. McCain knows how the game is played.

by itsthemedia 2008-03-16 06:09PM | 0 recs
Payback Time

Great post Universal.  

My father is a republican.  I actually sold him on Clinton.  Got him to listen to what she has to say and for the first time ever, he admitted that she is smart and might be good for this country. He is seriously considering voting for her.  (this is a man who's face turned red from just hearing the clinton name.)

I spoke with him earlier this morning.  He said he will never vote for Obama ever.  He believes that Obama and Michelle are racist and that they are selling themselves to whites and once in office it will be payback time.

Now, this is my father's view and I don't entirely agree with him.  Although, i am not sure anymore if Obama and Michelle are not racist based on their associations and past comments.  However, I know my father is your typical voter and if he totally believes the Obama's are racist, I think most of middle america will view it that way too.

Obama is already dividing the democratic party.  I am not sure blacks will vote for Hillary now, even though the Clintons have been wonderful to the black community.  If Obama wins the nomination, it's hello President McCain.

by Scope441 2008-03-16 03:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Payback Time

So, because your racist father won't vote for Obama, we should nominate Hillary?

And yes, I say racist, because what you are basically repeating here is the original fear of racists, that the Blacks will take power and punish them for their sins. What does it even mean to say that Barack and Michelle are racists? What does it mean? They hate Whites! Give me a fucking break. That is just an excuse to rationalize one's own racism.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 03:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Payback Time

You continue to fail to make the point that Obama is less electable than Clinton. I know in your head he is, but in my head it's vice versa. You will not convince me and I won't convince you.

But what we can do is denounce sexism AND racism whenever we see it and not base our decisions on it.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 03:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Payback Time

This diary is probably the wrong place to discuss this, there is too much hate in here, but I will try anyways:

1. You have seen only a few hand-picked moments taken out of 30 years of preaching. As the church itself and many others will tell you: Wright is very strong in his social critique, but usually not over the top like in these clips.

  1. The church and Wright have done a lot of good in their community.
  2. You know as well as I do that racism is real and that the generation of Wright fought against it and was victimized by it. You say he is a racist, but he is a victim of racism that maybe at times was unable to forgive his victimizers. What does it even mean to call him a racist? Have you ever thought about this from the perspective of a Black?
  3. Obama said that he considered Wright a spiritual adviser, not a political adviser. There is no reason to doubt that.
  4. Obama has made his views clear for everybody. He wants to put racial division behind us and that is one reason why he is running. Also consider that he has a White mother and grew up in a White household. How ignorant to even consider he is a racist or even shares his former pastors views.

I hope this helps.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri
I think this is a brillant tactical ploy by Team Obama. They have offloaded all the dirty laundry. Look this Wright issue was always out there. It didn't come as a surprise, i'm glad it did though. Obama as smart as he is will handle it. This is his big test.
At least we know he is not a Muslim. That smear is now buried.
We can move on. Look the same will be said when the Repugs find all the millions of money the Arabs have donated to the Clinton. That will be a BIG scandal.
by IsaacM 2008-03-16 03:08PM | 0 recs
This is just the Beginning------

Obama's supporters called him Mr. No Baggage.

No Drama Obama.

Obama said "I don't do nasty."

Not only is there drama, but he just told Chicago reporters he's about to go nasty too.  

He was sort of a rising stock, now he's just becoming a politician.

Hillary's support is hardening and getting angrier with all of his divisive personal attacks.  Now he's set to try to go even more personal.  

Obama can't have this kind of preacher, and then run this kind of campaign and then try to say---vote for me.  I will end partisanship.

People are saying, to what end?  By calling everyone who questions you a racist?  Every day?

by chieflytrue 2008-03-16 04:06PM | 0 recs
Good Luck

Real smart logic Isaac.  Team Obama wanted to move him from Muslim to Anti-White and Anti-American.  THat is the way to see your candidate to America.

Good luck with that.

by Scope441 2008-03-16 03:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Good Luck

Have you not learned yet that every Democrat is anti-American by definition for Republicans? How deluded are you to think that they won't try to smear Hillary as an anti-American liberal?

by marcotom 2008-03-16 03:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Good Luck

This is guilt by association. McCain hate preachers (Hagee & Parsley) no one said a word about them. Why is Obama held to a different standard.

by IsaacM 2008-03-16 03:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Good Luck

How else do you explain the timing? Just wondering...

by marcotom 2008-03-16 03:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri
I will say it again, in this diary, that this story is DISASTER for the Obama Campaign.  DISASTER.  This story will have legs all they way to Nov. 4.   John McCain must be overjoyed.  Do I think this hurts Obama in the Primaries? No. The General? ABSOLUTELY.  Do some research on the church and what Wright has said (even beyond the nastier sound-bite pieces)- there is a plethora of really really divisive sounding stuff.  Is it truly divisive and wrong?  Up for debate.  It does, though, SOUND AWEFUL.  I just happened across a Rev. Wright newsletter that was all about the "White Supremacist Establishment".  I mean, come on!!! This is like red meat for the Repubs!
This stuff will dog Obama like the Swiftboat bullshit.  This is the kind of stuff that will turn Independents off in a heartbeat.
 
by easyE 2008-03-16 03:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

they don;t..but yes he is toast in the general.

by bigbay 2008-03-16 04:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri
And yet, the Bush administration granted federal funding to the unification church, and nobody said a word about it. Federal funding went to a church which says that the Rev. Sun Myung Moon is the messiah. Politicians--including US Senators and Congresspeople of both parties--attend ceremonies at the church. The church also calls for its members to have sex with pictures of Moon hanging on the wall, and for them to wipe their genitals with a church supplied cloth after sex, to label and store it, and to never launder it.
And the federal government hired this church to do welfare work? And Senators and Congressmen appear in this church? And no one cares?
Extremist religion is silly--on all sides, including Wright's. That said, Jesus more or less said the same thing as Wright did in his day--he damned the Republic of Rome. And I don't think anybody could argue that our Britney Spears obsessed society (she's on the cover of the Atlantic?) has some serious problems, which God isn't happy with.
by IsaacM 2008-03-16 03:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

Definition of an "extremist" religion is one that is insufficiently in agreement with one's own religion.

by itsthemedia 2008-03-16 06:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

read this post on abc blog:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/ 2008/03/just-what-did-o.html
and than read readers comments. I will copy/paste just first one:

"Several points:

1. Of course Barack knew about the rev's style of pontificating. Had to..

2. True...racism still exists in this country. Also true...I live in a small town in which I must admit, it is very difficult "not" to be somewhat racist. Let me tell you what I see everyday in my town...Young blacks who tell me they don't work, and laugh at me to suggest they should. Young blacks who enjoy pitbull fighting and using other helpless animals as bait for pitbull fighting(this sickens me beyond words!!)Young teens(whites and blacks, but more blacks)who continue to get pregnant(but can't afford to pay for their baby), and ask me if I have a check for them as I do my mail delivery duties, and yes, they also commit more thefts.

I am sick and tired of the ACLU and other organizations making excuses for their behavior. I would have a lot more respect for the black community in general if the hardworking blacks would take a leadership role in these communities and do as Bill Cosby says, become responsible for your own damn actions. I know blacks have been discriminated against, but what am I suppose to think when some young males/females have no intention of looking for work. I'm sick of people using excuses to commit crimes because they are "poor". Being "poor" financially should not equate into being "poor" morally!!! Again, take some responsiblity.

Back to politics: BO cannot win a general election. The only Democrat able to beat the republicans since the Rush Limbaugh's and Karl Roves's came onto the scene, was Bill Clinton. All of the remarkable things accomplished during his admin. get tarnished because of his stupid sex acts. I would never condone what he did, but I also give him credit where credit is due. He and HRC are very smart, and they know how to beat the republicans. HRC is very misunderstood I believe. She is only considered divisive and polarizing out in TV land, not amongst those who know her best. Republicans and Democrats alike praise her intellect on policy, her hard work ethic, her passion, and her warmness. Watch her one on one as she speaks with voters....she actually listens.

HRC has been under microscopic scrutiny for many years, and although human flaws have presented themselves from both she and BC, after $60,000,000 of taxpayers dollars to investigate, the conclusion was: No other President has been investigated so thoroughly with so little wrongdoing found. The Republicans were very disappointed.

The Republicans will paint BO as weak, and weak cannot win in the general. I felt this even before the reverend's comments were aired. They cannot paint HRC as weak.

All politicians who've made it to the top of the game have money connections that are less than savory. Wish it weren't so, but.....

Also, I never considered HRC's comments with regard to MLK and Lyndon J. as racist! I never thought BC meant the Jesse Jackson comments as racist. The only other democratic candidate he could have referenced as winning SCarolina in recent years would have been himself, and that would have sounded pretty silly. I have followed BC and HRC for many years, and I can tell you, they have always worked hard for civil rights and education rights. Never wavered on those two commitments. I actually thought Jesse Jackson Jr.s' comments were racist, but of course, there wasn't much attention given to those.

Well, I'll keep watching as this political saga plays itself out...

HRC for me....

Posted by: KMB08 | Mar 16, 2008 1:35:40 PM"

by engels 2008-03-16 03:16PM | 0 recs
Disagree Sure

Obamanauts, disagree now.  You have your nominee but mark my words.  He will be torn to shreds in the general.  There is no distancing himself from Wright.  obama is too close to this guy to just denounce him at this point.  There are already calls for Obama to leave the church as the only solution and I doubt that will happen.  

Obama is general election suicide.  They took Kerry, a war hero, and painted him a traitor.  Obama doesn't have a chance in my opinion.

by Scope441 2008-03-16 03:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

Wait till HRC releases her tax records and all the sordid people who have contributed to them. It will be a disaster.

by IsaacM 2008-03-16 03:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

Damn you rich!  You already have your compensation.

Damn you who are well-fed!  You will know hunger.

Damn you who laugh now!  You will weep and grieve.

Damn you when everybody speaks well of you!

A rant from a radical preacher?  Without a doubt.  Someone on the Obama campaign?  Well, Sen. Obama says so.  That's the Scholars Translation of Luke 6:24-26, and the speaker is Jesus of Nazareth.  

by IsaacM 2008-03-16 03:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

Stipulating up front that I am an apostate and a skeptic, I do not think Jesus would disagree if I said that He would make a lousy President. Indeed, I would be shocked if He agreed to take the job, were it offered to him. I interpret the verse:

Mark 12:17 Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.

to mean, in essence: pay no attention to politics. Pay your taxes, and obey the law as much as you can, but keep in mind that these are temporal matters, and thus unimportant.

I think Jesus would be neither a Republican nor a Democrat, if he were alive today. He just did not think politics and government were worth spending any energy.

by itsthemedia 2008-03-16 06:27PM | 0 recs
Wrong

HRC's tax returns will not paint her as racist or anti-american.

however, rev. wright and michelle paint obama as racist and anti-american.

i am waiting for video to come out that shows obama in the audience during one of these hate speeches.  they have thousands of hours of video tape to review.  i would be willing to bet it is there.  

i am waiting for a member of the church to come forward and say obama was there during one of the hate speeches.  they will.

by Scope441 2008-03-16 03:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Wrong
Look you are making a mountain a out of a molehill.
This is a non issue. In a one week, this will be a non entity.
Remember the plagirism issue? Where is that.
Keep clucthing at straws. HRC lost.
by IsaacM 2008-03-16 03:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Wrong

Non-issue?  Please, plagirism compared to racism and anti-american hate speech are two different ball games.

This story is gaining ground as we speak.  We will see where it ends...

by Scope441 2008-03-16 03:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Wrong

Totally agree and the MSM is just beginning to dig into this.

I am sure there are all kinds of crazy comments and videos from Wright.  Not to mention the church's website.  One line on the site, "Non-negotiable Commitment to Africa?"  How is that going to go over with middle America?  I am a liberal and I want a president that has a non-negotiable commitment to AMERICA, not some other country.

This has legs.  Rick Sanchez at CNN just announced that CNN will air all the Wright videos currently on file in full tonight at 10pm so viewers can make up their own minds.

by Scope441 2008-03-16 04:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Wrong

How has your track record been on previous predictions, by the way?

Did you predict Obama would be ahead by 160 pledged delegates now?

Which states did you predict he would win?

Did you predict that he would cut Clinton's superdelegate lead by 2/3 after Super Tuesday?

Until we know how good you are at predicting this one, it would be good to know your track record.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-16 04:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Wrong

Actually, I am happy you ask.

Right after Iowa, i got excited about Obama.  His speech fired me up.

So, unlike most people, i decided to look into his background.

1. I found his church and his racist preacher.  
2. found out that "yes we can" was a carbon copy of "together we can" by deval patrick.

I realized right then that obama was nothing but a fake.  Go look up my past commments from LONG time ago.

I kept saying that his church and pastor scared the shit out of me and that once people found this out, obama is done.  I was told by obama supporters that i was racist and that nobody cared.

Hmm, i guess i was right and people do care.  CNN is airing all of the videos of Wright tonight at 10pm.  

by Scope441 2008-03-16 04:08PM | 0 recs
I must admit

You are one smart dude. The millions who voted for Obama were just bamboozled I say.

by galwar 2008-03-16 08:13PM | 0 recs
Just one video

Obama has said that he has NEVER heard one of these hate speeches.

You all have to admit that all it will take is for just ONE video to pop up with Obama in the audience during one of these hate speeches and his candidacy is over. Just one video.

Out of 25 years of sermons, I am willing to bet it is out there.  

I am not willing to risk winning the White House on someone finding just ONE video clip with Obama in the audience.  Just one...

by Scope441 2008-03-16 03:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Just one video

I would have thought the Obama campaign had learned their lesson during the NAFTA flap, as to getting the candidate on record making a flat falsifiable statement. The mistake of saying "It (the meeting) did not happen." has now been repeated by Obama's flat statement that he did not attend any of Wright's sermons.

A few personal disclaimers here:

  1. I am a Clinton supporter
  2. I thought the NAFTA flap was a tempest in a teapot, with the sole exception that Obama told that flat-out lie that the meeting never happened.
  3. I think the Wright issue is basically a tawdry guilt by association smear, which the Obama campaign can eventually get past unless they are caught lying about it.

by itsthemedia 2008-03-16 06:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Just one video

Oops, I meant to say Obama's flat statement that he did not attend any of Wright's controversial sermons.

by itsthemedia 2008-03-16 06:50PM | 0 recs
Right now Obama is ahead

What do you think is going to happen?

Obama isn't goint to drop out.  

by puma 2008-03-16 03:40PM | 0 recs
Then you should be happy

If you think that Obama can't win in the General and McCain wins, than all you Hillary fans just need to do is sit tight and wait until 2012 in which Hillary can run and Dems re-take the White House then with her as the nominee.

by puma 2008-03-16 04:13PM | 0 recs
Than stop worrying about it

Instead just focus on 2012.

The Dems have a good chance of losing this year simply because we are so divided.

Unlike many Hillary supporters here, I still think we Dems can win in the Fall if the Dems stay united.  I think we can win it with a Clinton/Obama ticket for we will totally drum up Democratic support.

The economy is going DOWN THE TUBES and will be worse in the Fall.

I am still hoping beyond hope that after this primary season BEFORE the convention, the Dems bosses sit Hillary and Obama down and say we have to solve this problem BEFORE the convention.  In order to do this, we have to be united.

If we Dems stick together, we will win.  If we don't we will lose regardless.

by puma 2008-03-16 04:28PM | 0 recs
I agree, mostly

I totally agree that either of the two remaining Dem candidates still has an excellent chance to win if the party can stay united. A dream ticket with either candidate order is still a possibility. Much more divisive primary seasons have led to such a result in the past.

I want to take issue, however, with your implication that Clinton supporters would be happy to see Obama get the nomination and lose in the fall. That insinuation is unfair to one, at least (me). And I do not think I am alone.

by itsthemedia 2008-03-16 07:01PM | 0 recs
Clinton/Obama ain't happening

You guys still amaze me. The No. 2 candidate ends up at the top and the No. 1 candidate ends up as a VP? Keep dreaming.

by galwar 2008-03-16 08:19PM | 0 recs
Right now Obama is ahead

What do you think is going to happen?

Obama isn't goint to drop out.  

by puma 2008-03-16 03:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

HRC supporters think they found oxygen. This whole religion think is a non issue. It will be forgotten in a week.

by IsaacM 2008-03-16 03:45PM | 0 recs
Doesn't matter

Doesn't matter if he is ahead or not.

1. It takes 2,025 delegates to win.  Neither has that.  Leading by 100 or so doesn't mean you win.

2. What do you suggest Obama does if just ONE video pops up with Obama in the audience during one of Wright's hate speeches.  Just one video out of 25 years of sermons.  I hear Obama was a regular church goer.

So Obama fans, you tell me.  What do you suggest we do as a party if a video pops up with Obama in the audience.  Remember, Obama has already stated that he has NEVER heard one of these speeches.

What do we do when a video pops up?

by Scope441 2008-03-16 03:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Doesn't matter

Can you define right now what you mean by "one of these speeches"?

I'm sure he was there for a sermon that criticized the power structure in America.  Does that count?  Do you require that your Christianity not comment on social justice issues?

by politicsmatters 2008-03-16 03:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Doesn't matter

1. Justifying 9/11 and saying America had it coming.  Sorry, but tell that to the family and friends of one of the 3,000 people killed on 9/11.

2. Blaming all whites for blacks problems.  Isn't that what the KKK does?  Blames all blacks for whites problems?  That is called hate speech and racism.  I don't support any type of hate speech or racism.

3. Saying Hillary has had it easy because she is white.  Hello, she is also a woman.  Women still don't make as much as men in the workplace and didn't get the right to vote until AFTER black men.  I would say she hasn't had it easy either.

4. Damning America!  That alone makes me sick.  How can any true patriotic american associate themselves with someone who DAMNS america and then expects to become president?!?!?

Rest my case....

by Scope441 2008-03-16 04:14PM | 0 recs
It depends on what the tape shows

Well, if tape is found where Obama is showing agreement by clapping, shouting "Amen", etc. as Wright says something incendiary, it is a total disaster.

If he is shaking his head, and looking grieved that his "crazy uncle" pastor would say such things, it is not a disaster. But it would add to the meme started by the NAFTA flap that Obama is not trustworthy, which is why he should never have made a blanket statement like that.

If Obama is snoring away in the pew, a Homer Simpson-like line of drool running out of his mouth, he will be forgiven for not remembering a sermon he slept through, and maybe get some points from those voters who have slept through a lot of sermons.

by itsthemedia 2008-03-16 07:12PM | 0 recs
Re:

While the church can go after the media for the questions about Wright one thing that they may not realize is that the media often makes their investigations more forceful and act in a much more aggresive way when they get attacked.  The first thing that they probably are already working on is trying to find evidence that Obama WAS there for any of Wright's sermons that are the subject of the discussions and that he denied being there for.

by ericrsiny 2008-03-16 03:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

I suspect that Wright's commentary is a hit to Obama, but not a fatal one.

McCain is far from "thoroughly vetted" himself. It'll be easy to derail the "Straight Talk Express" once we get down to business.

Above all here is that right wing pastors like John Hagee who have said things like "Hurricane Katrina is God's judgment on New Orleans for homosexual activity", and endorsed John McCain, are not getting nearly the scrutiny that Wright (and by association, Obama) is under.

I don't know if it's a good or a bad thing that the MSM doesn't even take people like Hagee seriously anymore, but I certainly think the flap over Wright's remarks is exponentially larger than it should be and Obama's responses have been more than sufficient.

by IsaacM 2008-03-16 03:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

Do you not see the difference between McCain's relationship with Hagee and Obama's with Wright?

If Obama had the same relationship with Wright that McCain has with Hagee then I would agree with you and say you can't tie the two together.

That isn't the case.  Wright is by Obama's own admission his inspiration.  His spiritual advisor, his mentor.  The one who brought him to christianity.  McCain is nowhere nearly as close to Hagee as Obama is to Wright.

Apples and oranges and rightfully so.

by Scope441 2008-03-16 04:04PM | 0 recs
There you go Uni
Great picture of Obama and Wright smiling.
Those are two scary guys I tell you.
by Drewid 2008-03-16 04:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama

I think this an important issue that needs to be fully vetted. I agree, it makes no sense to a reasonable person to accept that BO and his family attended a church for 20 years and yet were oblivious to the obviously passionate and extreme beliefs held by its pastor, Rev. Wright. Beliefs that I think are "scary" and certainly divisive. This also brings up the question of whether MR. BO is being forthright with the American public. Definitely worth a closer look.

by susanclare 2008-03-16 04:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama

Wow, you are really something. Spreading innuendo about Obama just like that. That is what I call empty rhetoric! Do you have any more information about Obama than the rest of us? No you don't.

There is no reason not to believe Obama on this. He has made his views on race and racial division clear from day one. Actually, he has made them clear in his books that were written a long time before he entered politics even.

by marcotom 2008-03-16 05:24PM | 0 recs
Another serious question

I'm new to MyDD and I have a question to those who say they are troubled by the Rev. Wright controversy:

Before I get to my question, though, a quick anecdote. Yesterday I was at a party and found myself outnumbered by some very outspoken Republicans. They were discussing the Gov. Spitzer scandal, and the conversation turned to Bill Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinsky. The group made numerous remarks about how Clinton has managed to bounce back from his scandal, despite the fact that he is "a serial womanizer" and a "compulsive liar". I asked this group how they felt about the fact that Newt Gingrich was involved in his own secret affair at the same time he was going after Clinton. From their responses, and their defense of Gingrich, it was clear that they were never all that concerned about the blowjobs or the perjury -- the Clinton scandal was just a chance to go after a political opponent.

I was reminded of this conversation while reading some of the comments here regarding Rev. White.

What is the core issue here? Do you truly believe that Obama secretly harbors anti-American sentiments and approves of Wright's inflammatory rhetoric? Is your concern the way that Obama has responded to the controversy? Or, is this simply an opportunity to inflict political damage against Obama?

I'd sincerely like to know what progressives think about this issue, but from the comments here, I can't tell how much is legitimate outrage vs. posturing.

by jdusek 2008-03-16 04:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Another serious question

Thanks for responding to my question. You've said what others may be thinking, including swing voters and independents. But I'm curious what the progressives who frequent this site think, so your opinion is not immaterial at all.

by jdusek 2008-03-16 05:43PM | 0 recs
I wonder why the media is only examining

Obama's church?

Huckabee himself was a preacher yet not once did the media examine his church or look at his sermons.

Why isn't the media examining McCain's church and Hillary's church?

Why only Obama's church?

I find a double standard here.

by puma 2008-03-16 05:04PM | 0 recs
Re: I wonder why the media is only examining

Huckabee said enough crazy things out in the open to clue us into his religious beliefs. There was no real need to look any further for me after hearing him say that the constitution
should look more like the bible, or some such ridiculous thing.  Chapter finished on religious beliefs of Huckabee.

It is Obama himself, that made this happen though.  He and his campaign and its followers are the ones who are constantly accusing others of racism, yet he is associated with people who seemingly are racist in their own way.  Obama is caught in a corner, where huckabee feels at ease spouting his beliefs in public, Obama attempts to hide his association with them.  Farakan (sp?) also made an endorsement of him, maybe to Obama's disappointment, but it still opened up the question of what beliefs he and Farakan have in common, or exactly why would he endorse obama.

There are lots of reasons why this has focused on Obama.  For all we know, all the other candidates have been looked into, but what was found wouldn't be a shocker.  Afterall, isn't Hillary something boring like a Luthern, or a Methodist, or Something.  Those Denominations are not exactly unknown to the wider society.

by Scotch 2008-03-16 05:23PM | 0 recs
Something has really changed

Even Maureen Dowd could not bring herself to defend Obama today and devoted her column to Bush-bashing.

by ann0nymous 2008-03-16 05:15PM | 0 recs
Uh, Universal didn't you

Already write a postmortem on the Obama campaign?

I am sure, Senator Obama, that you will continue to serve the Party and the nation as best you're able. I hope you will continue to grow in the Senate, and I'm sure you would learn much from becoming Governor of Illinois.

Godspeed to you, your wife and your children. Though you have, de facto, removed yourself from serious consideration for the White House due to your choices, I'm sure all Dems still believe you to be an asset to our cause.

Good luck.

This diary seems a bit redundant, no?

by Korha 2008-03-16 05:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Uh, Universal didn't you

It's not really worth pressing the point here, but how stupid do you think people are?

There is an explanation for how the same person could write two extremely long but manifestly inconsistent screeds in the space of one day, but the explanation is not a charitable one.

by Korha 2008-03-16 06:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

Great gatsby. Universal, what about REZKO!!?? I mean, can't Wright wait his turn in the hit Obama diary list!!!???

by pitahole 2008-03-16 05:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wri

Hehehe. I love it. Something tells me that at the end of the day, you will indeed be voting for Obama in November if/when he's the Dem nominee (it's OK if you don't want to openly admit it).

I can't help but imagine that you are helping Obama with the "vetting". If he can't absorb this now from his own team then he has no hope when Rove shines his forehead in the fall and lets loose with both barrels.  

To be honest, deep down inside, I'm wondering whether Hillary is not helping him at the same time as trying to win the nomination herself. She must be thinking " well, if I do lose this I might as well take the sting out of everything the repubs are going to try for the GE campaign". That's noble.

by pitahole 2008-03-16 06:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

On a scale of zero to zero, where does Wright-gate register in relation to REZKO!!!-gate and CULT-gate?  Please, I must know this! I'm counting on you, Universal, to enlighten us on this most important metric.

by pitahole 2008-03-16 05:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Sen. Obama re: Rev. Wrig

On a scale of zero to zero, where does Wright-gate register in relation to REZKO!!!-gate and CULT-gate?  Please, I must know this! I'm counting on you, Universal, to enlighten us on this most important metric.

by pitahole 2008-03-16 05:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Lord, I Hate This Crap

First, I posted a diary stating that the Rev. Wright controversy would scuttle Obama's chances of winning in November - so I agree up to a point.

But I do NOT agree with the reigning sentiment that everything Wright said was perfectly horrible and that Obama must now tap dance for the white vote.  In fact, what I really hoped for was that Obama would speak out forcefully - finally - about the REAL issues of race in America and not about some parsing of what Bill Clinton or Geraldine Ferraro said.

The real racism is when more inner-city African Americans are in jail than in college, that urban African American unemployment is at obscene levels, that urban African Americans have so little access to health care that health indicators for some inner city neighborhoods approach third world levels.

THOSE are some real racial issues, FYI.
And those are what Rev. Wright was angry about.  But instead, there is now a competition to see who can attack and who can disavow Rev. Wright the fastest.  Sakes alive, here's a person giving fair warning - and everyone chooses to ignore him.

Why do you think the O.J. trial was so divisive.  It wasn't because two groups of people interpreted the available information differently.  Whites and blacks understood the fundamentals of American justice differently.  Whites overwhelmingly said, "O.J. is guilty based on a dispassionate consideration of the evidence."  Blacks said, "A black man cannot receive justice in America."  

And still, most whites just don't get it.
Does it have to come to bloodshed in the streets?
As if there isn't enough already?

by johnnygunn 2008-03-16 05:59PM | 0 recs
regarding Rev. Wright

i find the words that Rev Wright said to be annoying and unconstuctive. But i also agree to the question" why have Mr MaCains and Mrs Clintons preschers not been searched??" although on top of that i feel that Mr Obama must hold himself up to a higher standerd since thats what he has run his campain on.

by liberal youth 2008-03-16 06:03PM | 0 recs
Thank you!!

My opinion of Rev. Wright's comments aside, I do agree that this will not go over well in the GE should Mr. Obama be the Democratic nominee. The GOP will not let this go, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some 527 group make an ad along the lines of Willie Horton.

by cplummer 2008-03-16 06:28PM | 0 recs
What?

No VDARE links again today?

by Brillobreaks 2008-03-16 08:58PM | 0 recs
Serious questions indeed.

Thanks for the rec Uni, returned inkind.

by Drewid 2008-03-16 09:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions
Ainley
Braswell and Vignali
Brown
Chaoying & Chung
Chatwal
Rich & Green
Huang
Hsu
International Profit Associates (IPA)
Jinnah
Jun
Weinig
Hubbell
Giustra
by Newcomer 2008-03-16 11:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Serious Questions for Obama
OUTSTANDING! Thanks for having the guts to ask these very important questions. Too bad the media did not do its job a lot earlier and get the truth out a very long time ago.
I am the mother of a member of the Armed Services and there is absolutely no way I would ever vote for Obama. Make a man with ties to a rabidly Anti-American church Commander in Chief?? Sorry- I am not drinking any of that Kool-Aid!
The Senator should get out NOW! He has done enough damage to the party!
by ProudMilitaryMom 2008-03-17 05:30AM | 0 recs
Serious Questions for Obama regarding Rev. Wright

I haven't read the 305 comments above mine, in part because I haven't figured out how to display responsive comments in their entirety....

Nonetheless, my take on this whole thing is as follows:

If Obama's relationship to Wright does not show that he's in the "blame American first crowd" (which I don't believe he is), then it does show that he's just as shameless or even more shameless a politician than George W. Bush, John McCain, or anyone else willing to sell their soul to be elected (I do believe this).  

Based upon my reading of Dreams From My Father and my knowledge of Barack Obama, it is my opinion that 20 years ago, Barack Obama was an ambitious young athiest looking to get into politics in the South side of Chicago.  

He knew that athiests did not do well in politics anywhere, and that in the South side of Chicago, a black Christian church would be his best religious prop.  

So, he started attending this church that would help pad his resume for political office.  He started pretending to believe that Jesus Christ was his savior, when he was only using Jesus Christ to get elected to local office in Chicago - much the same was another shameless politician, George W. Bush, claimed to be "born again" in order to win the evangelical vote.  

After 20 years of living this lie, and even using his children as props on top of props in his lie (having them baptized at the church) the lie is now coming back to bite him in the ass.

Does he admit he's been duping everyone in the South side of Chicago for 20 years, admit that he only attended the church to impress voters who live in the area, distance himself from Wright, and look like a huge phony who would do ANYTHING to get elected?  Of course not.  

He's got to figure out a way to ride the fence.  He has to distance himself from the comments, without admitting he really doesn't believe Jesus Christ is his savior.

PS:  This post written by a Jewish guy who has actually walked down the aisle at a Christian church at a friend's mom's funeral, walked to the podium, and tasted the "body of Christ" and "blood of Christ", just to see what the buzz was all about.  When I walked back down the aisle, the widower jokingly said to me "tastes like matzoh, huh?"  I had fun doing it, because it was a new experience for me.  I mean, how many Jews have tasted Christ?  But, I never felt the need to accept Christ as my savior.  It was what it was - an experience.  

And that's how I think Obama views that church - a means to the end of achieving his politically ambitious goals.  Much like any other politician that came before him, regardless of whether his supporters think he's superchangerificdifferentfullofhopeandoh sospecial.

by PJ Jefferson 2008-03-17 06:46AM | 0 recs
Exactly. All politicians want things both ways but
for some reason Obama supporters blindly see him as above it all. Its like the battered spouse. Slick politicians like - - - oh lets say Bill Clinton for the sake of argument - - - tell them what they want to hear, they fall all over themselves to vote for him, they get beat up with the truth (NAFTA), and then when another slick politician in Barack Obama comes around, do they learn their lesson? No, they say "you don't understand. Bill was a jerk, but THIS guy is DIFFERENT. This guy really loves me for who I am, and not just for my vote. Our love is real. You're just jealous", etc. And then they act surprised when they find out that Obama is no more or less an ambitious politician than Bill Clinton was. People really think Hillary is in it for herself, while Obama is in it for America. What a fucking joke. Obama wants money, fame, and power every bit as much as George W. Bush. So does Hillary, but at least people understand that.
by PJ Jefferson 2008-03-17 07:21AM | 0 recs

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