*NEW UPDATE!!!* -- Save it, Obama backers

UPDATE #2: Courtesy of the comments section below, here are some unfortunate yet relevant remarks made by Obama backers that help make my point of just how bad it has been for myself and other Clinton supporters throughout the campaign. Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with some stranger-than-fiction examples of Obama boosters' musings:

"Haha your candidate is gonna lose!"

-- XoFalconXo

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I am simply amazed that Jerome lets this idiot (that would be Universal) ruin his blog with his petty whining.

-- jwolf

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Another patheitic crack pot diary by Universial.

-- SocialDem

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It is no use getting drawn into this crud just so the diarist can turn around and troll rate as many Obama supporters as possible.

-- Travis Stark

There you have it.

Taunts, attempts to denigrate the blog we're all privileged to be able to post on, insults, and "pot calling the kettle black" remarks which ring especially hollow coming from Obama supporters, many of whom seem to thrive on troll-rating comments instead of writing diaries.

*Sigh* As sad as these comments are, thanks for helping to substantiate the point, guys. :(

Enough. We Clinton supporters are done being bullied by Obama and his acolytes. We are ready to stand up and reject this Politics of Hypocrisy being offered by Obama and embodied by too many of his would-be enforcer supporters. It is time to take back our party from these, what I consider to be, reckless individuals.

I urge you to stand with us who will not accept such 'leadership' that could both foster and encourage this kind of support. It is nearly good enough.

We want our party back, the party which fought with all its vigor over many years to put divisiveness and discrimination behind us in this great nation we call America.

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UPDATE: Robin makes an excellent point down in the comments:

I see constant beratement, etc., that we will 'come around' in Nov. But the chances are that many of us won't. Whether or not it's enough to affect the outcome of the election remains to be seen, but that's not the point.The point is, our actions will not be about revenge. They will be more along the lines of civil disobedience. It's about what kind of party we want to belong to, and we don't want to belong to one that supports the type of tactics and philosophies that we see coming from the Obama camp.

Precisely. It is not enough that you support choice, or any other position. If your assent was illegitimate -- as Obama's will be due to FL & MI -- your victory is meaningless.

Further, as Robin says, I expect more from my party, NEED more from my party than to be called a 'racist' by the Speech Police for daring to not be under the sway of their One.

I cannot simply sit around while our party is torn asunder by those who are concerned with symbols while millions of voters are being wantonly disregarded for mere personal ambition.

This is a struggle for the very soul of our party. This is a coup in the making, and like many coups, all sorts of shadowy figures are involved. Like Rezko, or Wright, or Meeks, or Odinga, or Ayers, or Farrakhan...

What happened in the wake of New Hampshire was beyond the pale. Once Jackson, Jr. was not even rebuked, not to mention not fired, I knew things were going to spiral out of control. And they have.

If you give into bullies even once, you are forever weakened and diminished. Leahy, Pelosi and other 'leaders' of the party have abdicated their responsibilities, and the "all questions about Obama are instantly suspect" crowd has taken over. This is wrong, so wrong. And it is my obligation, as a loyal Democrat, to do what I am able to make sure that I at least try to avert the crash our party is headed for if these coercers are rewarded for their cynical, unseemly tactics. No. We have to draw the line and not be afraid of the fallacious invective that will be wrongly hurled at us for standing up for the good of our party's future. Author Shelby Steele outlined how this contest would play out, and I didn't want to believe him. But he was right. And it has been a blotch on our party's and nation's fabric. Chicago politics at it's deepest nadir.

I am saddened, and sickened. But there is much work to be done to ensure that the resuscitation of our party can commence after November.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, let's get this out of the way.

The sudden cries of "Hey, let's all calm down here, right fellow Dems!" and "You know, maybe we SHOULD seat MI and FL" aren't fooling anyone.

Save it.

Here are gambits which aren't going to work with many Clinton supporters who are very seriously considering not voting for Barack Obama should he be nominated:

1. "You know what, I just decided that's it IS ok if we seat MI and FL. And guess what -- maybe we can even do it now!"

Give me a break.

Do you guys really think you're clever? Do you think we didn't hear about the NC delegation supposedly going for BHO? Do you think that anybody is dumb enough to fall for this?

Pathetic.

We all see through you clearly: You think you have things wrapped up now, you know disenfranchisement is a nuclear issue among other Dems and now you're trying to pat us on the head by pretending to be magnanimous when you were all but emptying your bladders when you thought the two states would affect the race?

Stop, please. Save yourselves the embarrassment.

2. The Supreme Court argument

A better argument than #1 for sure, but still not going to work. It's about the timing. If you're making this argument on the day when you feel like you have just sewn things up, you look like a sniveling, guilty-conscienced nitwit. Again, ridiculously transparent. "Hey, we got this thing! Now let's go do some patronizing damage control and maybe they'll forget those times when some of my fellow BHO supporters called them 'racists' and troll rated their every post in the thread, including the one that said "Happy Birthday, Barack!"

You should have thought about that before. This isn't make-up sex time, people are legitimately outraged. And we get more pissed-off when you guys are apparently stupid enough to think you're being slick with this type of tripe. It's insulting.

3. Purity Test Argument

"Go join Red Sate!"

"You're a Republican troll"

"Freeper's that way!"

Here's where we're at:

Many HRC supporters see a high number of Obama supporters as 'don't know jack about politics', 'I'm a stud but yes it's my first vote ever,' thuggish, 'send robocalls to tell you to caucus on the wrong day', 'Jeremiah Wright is right and you'll like it or I'll play the "racist" card on you', cognitively questionable individuals. Making statements like "Tell Bush I said hi" isn't helping you and your fellow Obama supporters' cases any.

Get a grip. Deep breaths.

.
.

Here's the summary of much of what I've heard from Clinton backers:

Obama, his campaign and his supporters did this to themselves. They are at fault for the 30% of HRC backers who say they will not vote for BHO in a general election against McCain.

I agree. You guys blew it, badly. And there is no certainty that Humpty Dumpty Dem party is going to be put back together again this election cycle, at least not at the top of the ticket.

If these numbers hold up, combined with the Wright tapes ads sure to come, Obama is looking at a McGovern-level loss should he be nominated. He would be finished as a presidential contender permanently.

So if you're channeling Pat Leahy or Chris Dodd, 'think before you type' would be my advice.

If Obama wins the nomination, which is a long way from now, the Clinton backers hold all the cards. We control whether or not he gets elected, or is at least competitive. We can turn the primary into the largest Pyrrhic victory since who knows when.

Many of us are considering doing just that. We believe firmly that the actions of a detestable, race-baiting campaign filled with Jesse Jackson Jr's, South Carolina memos, Spanish ads saying Hillary doesn't respect our people and John Lewis getting mugged not only shouldn't be rewarded but MUST not be rewarded or else the party could split irrevocably. We want to tell Barack to kiss our backsides because of his "her voters will vote for me but mine won't vote for her" crap. We want to tell Michelle "not sure if I can support Hillary" to stop speaking, resoundingly.

And at least as much as any of it, we want to make sure a clear message is sent out to the troll rate abusing, 'you're a racist!', 'I'm used to doing whatever I want on Daily Kos', 'we'll post pictures and tell people to harass you' embarrassments who call themselves Democrats and who support Obama. This is certainly not all Obama supporters, but to me and many others, it is far too high a percentage of Barack's backers.

Many of us HRC boosters are very inclined to see Barack lose -- at least that's how we feel right now -- if he wins the nomination. That is a guaranteed way to silence the incompetent party leaders, Obama's supporters, CNN & MSNBC and to dole out some MI and FL payback to Obama himself for their being disenfranchised. Some Clinton supporters are already set on doing this. Others like myself are leaning strongly towards it. Many others are trying to figure out if this is to be their path or not.

We Hillary backers are prepared to sacrifice our short-term goal of winning the White House in order to intervene in what we consider to be the hijacking of our party Obama and many of his seemingly zealot followers have undertaken.

We will make our decision, when and if the time comes, independent of pressure from others. We're not John Lewis (a great man who unfortunately succumbed to outrageous coercion from the BHO contingent). It is our choice alone.

However, if you want to help push us away from voting for Barack, by all means post disingenuous comments and diaries about how it's now 'ok' to seat MI and FL. Post the faux 'unity today (b/c my guy's in!)' diaries. Post the 'You're GOP' comments.

Who knows, maybe we can go Barack one better and be "Repubs for a day!" on Election Tuesday in November.

But when Barack Obama becomes Barack Mondale, you'll realize you have no one to blame but yourselves. We're already in that spot now, and no one knows just how large the backlash can grow, particularly if stoked.

Tags: 2008 elections, Barack Obama, John McCain (all tags)

Comments

344 Comments

Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Sore loser is an understatement, you really need to take a break and go outside.  Your hatred for a fellow democrat is quite disturbing.

by denounceandreject 2008-03-31 01:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

First of all, nobody has lost yet.  Try to remember this is a democracy.  

More importantly, you just proved the diarist's point, as have several other who have replied while i was typing.  If you don't agree, click on down the road.  If you want to add propane to the fire, be our guest and and name-call.  

Your candidate has run a disgraceful, hypocritical campaign, which has deeply divided the party.  Take responsiblity for the result.  

by oh puhleeze 2008-03-31 01:37PM | 0 recs
Pure projection.

David Sirota has documented the Clinton's slimy race-based campaign againstObama at In These Times.

Though more sophisticated, it's as vile and evil as Nixon's Southern Strategy.

Hillary embodies all the sleaze you project upon Obama.

by tbetz 2008-03-31 01:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Pure projection.

Keep it up with the slime and evil and vile routine.  Works for me.

by oh puhleeze 2008-03-31 01:47PM | 0 recs
Okay, projection plus denial.

Better?

Read Sirota's article.  If you have any shred of a soul remaining, it will sicken you.

by tbetz 2008-03-31 02:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Okay, projection plus denial.

I read it.  It's well written b.s.

by Tolstoy 2008-03-31 02:46PM | 0 recs
What Entitlement!

we consider to be the hijacking of our party

His Party? Excuse ME?!

A better candidate who is running a better campaign is a hijacking?

by Lefty Coaster 2008-03-31 10:02PM | 0 recs
Re: What Entitlement!

Well, sure.  If you're going to stage a coup, you want to enlist as much support as you can.  That's why the Obama campaign has broken new ground in training volunteers and enabling grassroots organizing.  Thousands of co-conspirators in state after state, making GOTV calls surreptitiously from their kitchen tables, donating to the campaign $25 or $50 at a time to avoid detection.  Attending rallies by the thousands, where they knowingly chant upbeat slogans while thinking their dark thoughts.

by deminva 2008-04-01 06:01AM | 0 recs
Re: What Entitlement!
spot on.

I think some of these diaries are a bit out of hand. The examples of rude comments in the update are not all that explosive. Like it or not, "Crack pot diary" is somewhere between an insult and the truth - or both, perhaps.

We have all seen over-the-top comments from both sides, but that will happen on a blog where most of us are anonymous. This blog seems to be hypersensitive about any and all criticism.

The site guidelines seem to have flown out the window.

by power of truth 2008-04-01 01:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Okay, projection plus denial.

really why don't you read Sean Wilentz's scholarly analysis of how Obama is race-baiting his way to the nomination? Sirota is a hack and a dishonest one at that too.

by tarheel74 2008-03-31 02:46PM | 0 recs
Sirota started posting pro-Obama

puff pieces on Kos a while ago. Right after he got his feelings hurt about some diary or other.

by georgiapeach 2008-03-31 04:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Okay, projection plus denial.

I read it - nice rational justification of an emotional opinion.

Let's call it even-Steven with Evelyn Pringle's article posted here and elsewhere http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0803/S0 0452.htm#a

and move on.

by pan230oh 2008-04-01 06:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Pure projection.

Gee, troll-rated for repeating your words.

by oh puhleeze 2008-03-31 04:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

How has Obama's campaign been been "disgraceful"?

How has it been "hypocritical"?

How has the campaign divided the Dem Party inappropriately?

by Carl Nyberg 2008-03-31 01:42PM | 0 recs
this way

Obama was the first to play the race card

Sean Wilentz

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/2 0080330_Obama_was_the_first_to_play_the_ race_card.html

   Quietly, the storm over the hateful views expressed by Sen. Barack Obama's pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, has blown away the most insidious myth of the Democratic primary campaign. Obama and his surrogates have charged that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton has deliberately and cleverly played the race card in order to label Obama the "black" candidate.

   Having injected racial posturing into the contest, Obama's "post-racial" campaign finally seems to be all about race and sensational charges about white racism. But the mean-spirited strategy started even before the primaries began, when Obama's operatives began playing the race card - and blamed Hillary Clinton.

   Had she truly conspired to inflame racial animosities in January and February, her campaign would have brought up the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and his incendiary sermons. But the Clinton campaign did not. And when the Wright stories and videos finally did break through in the mass media, they came not from Clinton's supporters but from Fox News Network.

   Although Wright had until recently been obscure to the American public, political insiders and reporters have long known about him. On March 6, 2007, the New York Times reported that Obama had disinvited Wright from speaking at his announcement because, as Wright said Obama told him, "You can get kind of rough in the sermons." By then, conservative commentators had widely denounced Wright. His performances in the pulpit were easily accessible on DVD, direct from his church. But Clinton, despite her travails, elected to remain silent.

   Instead, she had to fight back against a deliberately contrived strategy to make her and her husband look like race-baiters. Obama's supporters and operatives, including his chief campaign strategist David Axelrod, seized on accurate and historically noncontroversial statements and supplied a supposedly covert racist subtext that they then claimed the calculating Clinton campaign had inserted.

by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor 2008-03-31 01:54PM | 0 recs
Re: this way

We read it the first time he wrote it in The New Republic.

Writing it twice doesn't make it any more true.

by Mostly 2008-03-31 02:00PM | 0 recs
Re: this way

John Lewis said on PBS's News Hour on 1/14:

   "It is unfortunate that people have tried to distort what Mrs. Clinton had to say about Dr. King," "I think there has been a deliberate and systematic attempt by some people in the Obama campaign to really fan the flames about race and to really distort what Senator Clinton said.  I understood and I think most right thinking people understood what she said.

         "President and Senator Clinton have a record, a history, a very long history of bringing people together.  No right thinking American would ever think that Senator or President Clinton would ever do anything that would use the race card"

         "I must tell you...I'm trying to set the record straight...the Obama camp is doing something else, theyr'e sending out memos to the media trying to suggest that the Clintons are playing the race card."

by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor 2008-03-31 02:25PM | 0 recs
except that I was there

I don't need to read about what happened, I observed it. This is what come when you sow hate, you may reap it.  But, the super's know too and they're waiting to see if Obama shows some leadership skills.  So far he's a motivational speaker, and they have shelf lives even when PBS shows them, and they never attract anyone, and certainly not the one's they make up nasty stories about, a victim may garner sympathy, but when you learn it's a con, then people get upset.  That's what's happening, and some of his nastier supports can feel glad they helped it along.  Congrats!!!  I'll vote for who HIllary tells me to vote for. She'll do the right thing for the party but he has decreased his own odds for winning the GE.  He's a rookie, he'll probably insist on running again and you'll probably help him win a second one too?  Feel smart?  

by anna shane 2008-03-31 02:35PM | 0 recs
I'll vote for who HIllary tells me to vote for

That's the way to think for yourself!

by jwolf 2008-03-31 02:58PM | 0 recs
Re: except that I was there

Feel smart? I don't care... what I mean is I don't understand the point of this thread.  Don't even know why I'm posting in it.  Everyone's vote is their own responsibility and their own choice.  Doesn't mean you can't be heavily or totally influenced in what Hillary Clinton tells you to do.

I just think posts that amount to "I'm voting for McCain and it's YOUR fault" are silly.  It isn't my fault at all.  If you want McCain, vote for him.  If you don't, don't.  Either way, I don't see how favoring Obama makes me suddenly responsible for the vote of people who don't agree with me.

by Mostly 2008-04-01 07:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Ha-ha, you really are pissed that Obama is winning.  The entitlement that Hillary and her supporters possess does not go well with the rest of the folks.  You need to take more time uplifting your candidate rather tearing a fellow democrat that is pretty much politics 101.  If your message is, Obama is a meenie or the media are acting like poopy heads, then I don't know what to tell you, other than that is a strategy people don't want to associate themselves with.  I understand he won't get every single democrat to vote for him, but it is absurd to think your candidate has run an scandal free campaign.  

by denounceandreject 2008-03-31 01:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

No, I'm really sad to find that my compatriots, the so-called progressive community, are a bunch of sneery fratboys spouting ancient withered republican clinton-hating talking points, while pretending to be uplifting.

by oh puhleeze 2008-03-31 01:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I think that the supporters of both sides are guilty of this kind of stuff, the difference is that most of the time the Obama supporters don't end up on the Recommended list.

There are diarists that are literally linking to anti-Muslim sites ("Creeping Sharia") that are bashing Obama, and they end up getting on the Recommended list.  Same goes for diaries that contain videos showing Obama, Michelle, and people jumping out of buildings on 9/11.  It is done under the guise of vetting our candidates, but it is nothing more than doing the nastiest of mud-slinging for the Republican party so they won't have to.

That being said, there are Obama supporters that go out of their way to thumb their noses at Clinton supporters, and vice-versa.  Hopefully as a community we can come together before November.

by thatpurplestuff 2008-03-31 02:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

The problem with that is when I give Hillary the benefit of the doubt she goes off and says something stupid as the Bosnia flap.  Then Hillary claims she is tough to withstand any attack, but the minute Obama presses her, she whines he is being mean to her.  There is a perception of Hillary that she is a committed liar willing to do anything to win the office and then she goes off and claims she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary. There is a reason why her negatives are higher than her positives.  You can't blame anyone else than your candidate for that.  

by denounceandreject 2008-03-31 02:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

So convincing, your 15-year-old Clinton loathing republican talking points.  Yes, there is a reason she has high negatives: "progressives" like you piling on.

I mean, really, "she whines he is being mean to her?"
And you might look at that expensive glass mansion your candidate lives in before you start throwing rocks about lying.

by oh puhleeze 2008-03-31 04:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Your rabid support for Hillary has drawn you away from reality.  I dare you to show me a poll that shows her negatives are higher than her positive.  She is at an all time high since 2001.  That is a fact, and mere notion that you can't handle this shows how deranged you have become.  I understand the old guard doesn't want to give up the power, but this party is going in a different direction.  I know this is a bitter divorce but the new guard is going to take over and there is really not much you can do about it.  Just give it up gracefully or go out swinging.  Either way we are ready.

by denounceandreject 2008-03-31 05:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath
Well I can agree with a couple of things here.
The party is leaving behind a large portion of it's base in the hopes that it will get enough republicans and independents to make up the difference. Too bad the independents seem to like McCain.
They are also leaving behind their most reliable voters, the over 60 set. But hey what the hell maybe Obama girl will actually VOTE in the GE instead of just partying.
by J Rae 2008-03-31 08:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Fratboys?

Seriously?

What do you even MEAN by that?

by freedom78 2008-03-31 05:12PM | 0 recs
you mean was....

voters said NO to him in OH - TX...

they will stomp him in PA...then in IN,KY, WV, PR...

Denver!

by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor 2008-03-31 02:29PM | 0 recs
Re: you mean was....

Hello, Obama won Texas

by lion king 2008-03-31 03:35PM | 0 recs
right...

by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor 2008-03-31 04:15PM | 0 recs
Re: right...

Texas Delegate Count:

Obama - 98
Hillary - 94

You're right, John Wesley, Obama did win!

by doschi 2008-03-31 09:28PM | 0 recs
Re: you mean was....

BS! Clinton will not win Indiana. I live outside of Indianapolis, and Obama is doing something that I never thought I would see here; he's getting traction in the rural areas. I'm confident enough to place a wager on it.

by zep93 2008-04-01 06:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath
Your candidate has run a disgraceful, hypocritical campaign, which has deeply divided the party.  Take responsiblity for the result.  

But denounceandreject supports Obama.
by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-03-31 02:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Okay...  here we have yet another example on this site of the virtuous, saintly Hillary supporters being so hard put upon by the big bad Obama supporters...

Honestly...  do you not see the hypocrisy...?  Do you not see the comments on this very site that are vitriolic and hate-filled toward Obama.

I'm voting Democratic in November as usual anyway, but you have got to be kidding with these constant whine-fest diaries that complain about how terrible Obama supporters are.  We are all becoming what we have beheld.  There are bad Obama supporters and there are bad Clinton supporters.  To imply the purity of one side over the other is simply ridiculous.

by JenKinFLA 2008-03-31 02:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Oh, why, oh, why do you have to make sense?

by noquacks 2008-03-31 06:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I must not have made too much sense or I wouldn't have gotten tr'd...  

Of course, considering the source, maybe it's because I made sense....

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-01 12:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

We'll all remember when McBush stacks the Supreme Court with rabid anti abortionists. So what are your real priorities, the right for a women to choose what she wants to do with her body, Obama, or the government deciding for you, Mc Bush??

Well which is really more important?

by lion king 2008-03-31 03:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Spare me the women's rights posturing.  Where were you the last few months when the misogyny was so thick in the air I had to wear a gas mask?

by oh puhleeze 2008-03-31 04:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Let's see...

"Women dying trying to get illegal abortions because choice has been outlawed by the Roberts court."

vs.

"Supposedly mysogynistic statements on a blog by a candidates unpaid supporters."

Your right! Totally relatable.

Seriously though, I understand there's some sadness over Clinton's straits, and it's time for Obama supporters to gracious -- but let's put things in perspective. If you really believe America is in real trouble and Clinton's solutions are the only solutions -- surely Obama is a bitter -- but better -- pill than McSame, since both Hillary and Obama admit they are closer on more issues than not.

Wait, I forgot. Save my breath. But I'm typing, and would have to breathe anyway. Suggestions?

by Lettuce 2008-03-31 04:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Please!  It's called projection.  Obama has run probably the most positive winning campaign this country has seen in 48 years, while Clinton has done nothing but attempt to tear down.  And it's working.  She's got her followers ready to sabotage the party if she doesn't get her way.  Followers ready to hand the Supreme Court over to the anti-choice crowd.

These people have nothing on the Nader voters of 2000.  At least they stood for principle.

by Drummond 2008-03-31 04:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

conjecture about petty crimes, implications of sinister plots to race-bait, a boogeyman behind every quotation and memo, the cunning of a puppeteer and the conscience of a snake.  you know?  if i didn't know any better, i'd say this is roughly how hillary clinton was treated by the GOP for 20 yrs.  but i don't really know what it's like to be a real Democrat, so i'll quietly return to my hovel.

by beyondo98 2008-03-31 09:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Perhaps if BO supporters behaved more like Democrats themselves... just sayin'

by JHL 2008-03-31 01:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

There are clearly bad actors on both sides of the debate.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-03-31 01:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Yes, but I address the bad actors as they perform.

by JHL 2008-03-31 01:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Have you commented negatively on any of the poorly formaulated acts of Clinton supporters on this site?

by NewOaklandDem 2008-03-31 01:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Yes, as a matter of fact I have. I have zero tolerance for all this minutia that forces those of us who want to have a civil and thought-provoking dialogue to shove our hands in the dung to get it out of the way of a productive discourse.

And IMHO, I think the sewer sludge is backing up more and more each day whch is not helpful to either candidate, the Party, or the Country. What has gotten sucked down into the sewer is digraceful. No excuses. Th most popular Democratic President in ages is called a racist---the very man who joined with a former Republican President (who he defeated) to establish a fun to HELP Katrina victims. A Senator and former first lady is called names I don't care to even repeat here. And a freshman Senator, who I do not like or trust, but nonetheless would defend against those who call him anti-American---WARNING- DO NOT dare reply here that Bill Clinton did that---HE DID NOT--- have chosen public service and get villified. Just plain digraceful---the whole lot of you doing it.

by JHL 2008-03-31 02:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Hey, I've got problems with Bill Clinton, but I never thought of him as a racist.  But give me the benfit of the doubt, or at least look at my posting history before yelling at me.

You have to admit that some of the crap that gets posted and rec'd here attacking Obama is just as bad a the ones attacking Clinton.  I'd like all of it to stop.  And Universal's dairy dosen't really help things.  It would be nice if we could all back off of the attacks, and post pro-Candidate diaries instead of attack diaries all day long.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-03-31 02:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

First--- I was not yelling a you. I posted my comment portion in BOLD as a stand-out. There are plenty of BO suporters who would have jumped at the chance to say Bill is a racist. And we both know that.

On your closing comment, I couldn't agree more...

by JHL 2008-03-31 02:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

When I read posts, Caps, especially bolded Caps, are yelling - so I apoligize for misreading your comment.  

I would imagine that there are a number of Obama's allaged supporters that would call B Clinton racist, but I am not one of them, and I think that almost all of Obama's serious supporters would not make that claim.  I will be sure to be on the lookout for these comments, and will chastise when I can.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-03-31 02:29PM | 0 recs
Too late. We tried many many times...

...to get involved in substantive issues and questions.  But each time we were called stupid, idiots and lazy sons of a bitch.

It's too late - you've lost a lot of us.  And we're not going back.  In fact, I am now sending some of the great anti-BO diaries to people I know who might vote for BO to get them NOT to.

That's the damage Obama supporters have created.  Live with it.

I would also like to add that one other reason my husband and I will never vote for BO...he's a fraud.  And the fact that BO supporters are not willing to look at the empty suit that he is tells us that the Dem. Party and (god forbid) this nation is in for a very tough time.

But we survived 8 years of Bush.  Surely we will survive 4 years of McCain.

You've made your bed, now lie in it!

by Shazone 2008-03-31 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Too late. We tried many many times...

Well, I for one am sorry that this site and the party let you down.  You of course are free to vote for whom you want, and give your opinions to others.  But I disgree that the country could survive even one year of McCain.  Maybe you'll come back in four or eight years, and if you do, I'm sure that there will be open arms waiting for you.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-03-31 02:47PM | 0 recs
Thank you. But I will never...

be a Democrat again.

by Shazone 2008-03-31 03:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Thank you. But I will never...

Again, a shame, but I know many good people who aren't Democrats.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-03-31 03:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Thank you. But I will never...

It's a shame that you've let a vocal minority of anonymous posters on blogs change your party affiliation forever.  Hopefully you'll change your mind at some point.

by thatpurplestuff 2008-03-31 03:15PM | 0 recs
No, we won't...and you don't get it, do you?

by Shazone 2008-03-31 03:20PM | 0 recs
Re: No, we won't...and you don't get it, do you?

No, I sincerely don't.  I've never attacked a Hillary supporter for choosing a different candidate, and I think it is wrong when people do it.  If that is truly what has driven you from the Democratic party, that really sucks and I'm sincere when I say that hopefully time will heal some wounds.  I'm not presumptuous enough to say that it will, but I hope it does.

by thatpurplestuff 2008-03-31 03:24PM | 0 recs
There have been a few times in my...

long life when someone has made the top of my shit list.  I haven't had anyone on it in years.

Barack Obama is there now.

It takes a lot to get there.

The only other (three) people to have made the list died of natural causes before I took them off.

Don't count on time healing this wound.

by Shazone 2008-03-31 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: There have been a few times in my...
Wow. What exactly did Barack Obama do wrong? He's run a tough race against Hillary, who was the front-runner for a long time. He ran a good campaign against very tough opponents and seems to have won fair and square. I admire both Hillary and Barack for running tough campaigns. Somebody had to lose. I hope you come around. Good luck.
by power of truth 2008-03-31 05:08PM | 0 recs
He's inexperienced. A liar. A fraud.

An empty suit. Has run a racist campaign and lied about his opponent.  Is probably a crook (considering who he hangs around with).  He has trashed the only two-term Dem president since Roosevelt.

He digusts me.

by Shazone 2008-03-31 05:10PM | 0 recs
No.

Hahaha!!! Teh internets is serious business!

But seriously you people are holding a whole lot of people accountable for the words of some random people on a website. You are holding Obama responsible for the words of his supporters. GROW UP PEOPLE. At this point you are thinking of literally drinking the political kool-aid, as you would rather die, and even worse, KILL than lose.

And make no mistake about it, people WILL likely needlessy die in some senseless war if McCain is elected. Women. Children. Innocents who never said a cross word about your candidate. They may not even know who they are..

Is that worth it? If the answer is yes, then the party is better off without you.

No matter what you think of Obama's supporters, most of us love our country enough to want to stop McCain. We would not choose those deaths over Hillary, no matter what.

by Darknesse 2008-03-31 06:18PM | 0 recs
Re: There have been a few times in my...

Imagine how pissed you'll be when he wins the nomination and then goes on to win the presidency without you proving that YOU DON'T MATTER.  Petulant children don't belong in politics anyway.  That's why it's so important to get the republicans out of power.  Their party is made up almost entirely of them.  Fortunately you represent a portion of our party that is smaller than the number of new voters and crossovers that BO currently enjoys.  

Your choice to remove yourself from relevance serves only to strengthen our party and leave the conversation to the adults. Good riddance.  Have fun at the kids table with the GOP starting 1/20/09.

by lockewasright 2008-04-01 05:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Thank you. But I will never...

Can someone tell my why it's acceptable for Shazone to even post on this site.  Now that she's admitted that she'll vote for McCain and never be a Democrat again, doesn't that automatically make her a troll?

by chinapaulo 2008-03-31 07:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Too late. We tried many many times...

Good luck with keeping your reproductive rights then.

by lion king 2008-03-31 03:10PM | 0 recs
And good luck to you when this nation...

goes into a depression and another war and fails in all of the important things that BO has no experience in.

I imagine that he will appoint Rezko to HUD and Rev. Wright as Sec of State. It wouldn't surprise me at all.  That's what an idiot he is.

by Shazone 2008-03-31 03:15PM | 0 recs
Re: And good luck to you when this nation...

So now you don't believe in OUR Country? You are really one sick puppy. This is really so sad to see people like you go to such desperate extremes.

You must have some serious issues with men!

by lion king 2008-03-31 03:20PM | 0 recs
I love men and am happy to report that...

a number of wonderful men have loved me over the course of my life.

And I did not say anything about not believing in our country, I said that with Obama as POTUS, we are going to be in deep deep shit.

Actually I give our country a lot of credit...even enough credit to survive 4 years of John McCain.

by Shazone 2008-03-31 04:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

They'd first have to become Democrats.  

by Tolstoy 2008-03-31 02:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath


 

We can turn the primary into the largest Pyrrhic victory since who knows when.
 


Oh GOODIE...we really could use 4 more years of Republican Rule, and Hillary Supporters can make it a reality! GO McCain! POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

The mind boggles at the stupidity driving the "take my ball and go home" selfishness of the HillaBots here. It really is quite stunning.

by jwolf 2008-03-31 02:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I've been careful lately not to read some of the diaries (both sides, supporting either candidate) that look like they are going to be really obnoxious and inflammatory.  Unfortunately I looked at this one.  The initial post is meant to do just what it did, bring a river of obnoxious comments that prove the original poster's points.  Aren't you all tired of this by now?  I'm not sure I get the thrill.

I can't imagine either Obama or Clinton looking at this mess and enjoying what his/her supporters are saying.  

by mady 2008-03-31 02:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Well said.  Hopefully the cooler-headed supporters of both candidates will prevail.  This type of stuff only serves to damage Democrats.

by thatpurplestuff 2008-03-31 02:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

And that's exactly why the Rovebots are here doing it.  What, you thought actual Democrats could post shit that bad about another Dem?  NFW.  This is orchestrated; this is purposeful; this is infiltration.  The sooner we stop giving these assholes a voice on this forum, the better.  

They are not pro-Hillary, they are anti-Democrat.

by rb608 2008-03-31 03:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Well, I suppose being troll rated for my comment proves my point.

by mady 2008-03-31 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

It's because Universal is crazy.

That is all.

by Darknesse 2008-03-31 03:01PM | 0 recs
Fellow democrat?

Hardly.  These guys aren't Democrats, they're here to F the Democrats.  Pure and simple.

by rb608 2008-03-31 03:36PM | 0 recs
Yes, Universal!

It's Spring, and hardball--not the Chris Matthews' version--is startin' early. (Looks like the other side took the field before the old timers. Oh, well...not to worry.)

Play ball! Batter up!

(Yep, time to show the Big O folks some very tough love. Payback's a bitch...and we all know bitch is the new black, right? <big grin>)

by bobswern 2008-03-31 08:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, Universal!

"Oh! Oh! Oh! It's an out-of-the-park home run!"

(Your diary's the subject of much derision over at the O'Bloviator tonight, apparently. Me thinks you hit a nerve! Too freakin' bad, huh? <LOL!>)

by bobswern 2008-03-31 08:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, Universal!

Oh yeah, well, "Black is the new president, bitch!"

by doschi 2008-03-31 09:38PM | 0 recs
Re: &quot;Hatred&quot;

This is not hatred.  This is honest frustration...the same emotion I feel when I see what has become of the man who blew me away with his 2004 convention speech.  I wanted to vote for that man!

I studied what he did during his short time in Congress and waited for him to speak out strongly on the hard issues.  It was easy to get what news there was about him...I can see his district from where I sit.  There didn't appear to be much he was actually doing, other than a couple of easy, noncontroversial bills, and I'm still waiting to see the leadership once I thought was there.

You had me, Mr. Obama, and you lost me.

by creeper1014 2008-03-31 09:02PM | 0 recs
ditto

you are a celebrity on other blogs; they have your number and it is zero!

by dearreader 2008-04-01 03:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I am convinced you are a Republican.

by mefck 2008-03-31 01:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Your troll ratings of your comments further supports my suspicion.

by mefck 2008-03-31 01:32PM | 0 recs
I am convinced you are a #$#$^^@$%

by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor 2008-03-31 01:56PM | 0 recs
this charging those who disagree with you

of being "hidden" Republicans...

is stupid, insulting, rude, paranoid, kinda crazy, obsessed, delusional, amateurish., self obsessed and a totally childish waste of time.

by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor 2008-03-31 04:23PM | 0 recs
Re: this charging those who disagree with you

If it is such a waste of time why do you respond?

by lion king 2008-03-31 04:50PM | 0 recs
He uses RNC talking points in his diaries

Like yesterday's

by Lefty Coaster 2008-03-31 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

"Obama, his campaign and his supporters did this to themselves. "

Yes, we did.  Winning.  By a large enough margin that Hillary cannot catch up in time.  We did this.  And we are going to keep doing it.

We will seat FL and MI at the convention - when Obama has wrapped up the nomination.  That would be my guess.

One way or another, you're still a Troll, Universal.  For real.  You should swear to support Obama in the general election, instead of trashing him all you can get, after he gets the nomination.  

by Cycloptichorn 2008-03-31 01:28PM | 0 recs
ITS SAD, SO SAD...

puff, puff, puff...

you people are so obviously scared, so lacking in real confidence, you keep bullying, taunting, like  angry babies, tantrums, taunts and bragging,  like a bunch of jr high school terrified boys...

there were 3 seperate diaries yesterday gloating and taunting over the "NC endorsements", I offered to bet anyone 5 to odds it was untrue...5 to 1....
not a  peep...

we know you are scared little bunnies about whats coming in PA, IN, KY, WV, PR , MI,FL and Denver...

Its sad, so sad...

by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor 2008-03-31 02:12PM | 0 recs
Re: ITS SAD, SO SAD...

Why would I, or any Obama supporter, be afraid?

I think that you are engaging in a little projection, here.  Honestly.  B/c one of us has a preferred candidate who is currently far in the lead, and the other, far behind.  My candidate is far in the lead.  Yours is far behind.  

Barring a scandal of epic proportions, Hillary is done; you know in your heart that this is true.  Maybe it makes you feel like a big man, insulting people on the interwebs.  But it won't change the ultimate reality of the situation.

by Cycloptichorn 2008-03-31 02:20PM | 0 recs
TS SAD, SO SAD...

You are terrified.

I worked for and know the Clintons.  In a very small group, I worked on the fightback, from day one, of the Ken Starr coup attempt.

I saw them abandoned at the time by all the DC insiders, the Congress, the DNC with Dodd as chair... with online death watches, all the pundits and editorials demanding they quit...
they didnt , they wont.

Know this, they will win the majority of the remaining states and votes....

Then they will win MI AND FL.

Thats the big one - Axelrod/Obamas big mistake...

and you folks think you understand this - but you sure as heck do not. {i suggest you look at karl roves essay about the convention committees to get    a bit of a glimmer.}

Im as confident of a Clinton win as you pretend you are that they will lose.

Just like 10 years ago, the half of you who resent us....will eventually all come around....
the SCOTUS is at stake after all...

Ive been down this road before...

you'll see....

the good news for you... Obama will be VP....and we will win.  obama on his own would be crushed.  

by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor 2008-03-31 03:01PM | 0 recs
Re: TS SAD, SO SAD...

Get a therapist. You have severe anger issues. I guess you must be in the anger stage of grief. Really you are taking this all to personally. Hillary is not a god, neither is Obama.Stop projecting all of your lifes hurts and dissapointments onto Clinton and Obama.

by lion king 2008-03-31 03:16PM | 0 recs
heck. Im not even slightly angry...

I KNOW what's coming...you just have the cable idiots {who i have contempt for, not anger} to fall back on for support...

but it is sad, so sad,

the rudeness of you people is never ending.  

just think of me when we grind out the final victory.

by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor 2008-03-31 03:55PM | 0 recs
Since you are obviously invested in this

and would know a lot about Clinton's campaign, etc., can you explain to me why HRC keeps talking about Voter Disenfranchisement with regard to MI and FL, but then sends out a memo that "pledged delegates aren't exactly tied to the popular vote", as in, pledged delegates can come to me if they have issues with another candidate...
Isn't that another form of voter disenfranchisement, to not follow the pick of the voters?

Seriously I am not trying to "burn you" or start an argument, you seem to have an inside understanding to all this campaigning and I would like some explanation of this

by KLRinLA 2008-03-31 05:08PM | 0 recs
You'll enjoy Obama's inaugural speech

Hillary having campaigned for Obama, will still be in the Senate.

by Lefty Coaster 2008-03-31 06:26PM | 0 recs
Obama's inaugural speech????

;

by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor 2008-03-31 08:17PM | 0 recs
Re: TS SAD, SO SAD...

So a Clinton gets what a Clinton wants, eh? Why should anyone have dared run against them, when you're saying that they always get it in the end. And you're absolutely fine with that.

by zep93 2008-04-01 06:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

But, that's not accurate.  He DOESN'T care about the party.  He's threatening to vote against the party if his candidate isn't the one on top in the end.  And to work against the party.  

Unless you mean the REPUBLICAN party.  I can see that.

by Cycloptichorn 2008-03-31 01:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Last time I checked, an American's allegience is to COUNTRY first, and Party second.

If as a democrat I feel that the nominee is not the best for this Party or this country, why should I be disloyal to my country and NOT vote my conscience?

This shtick is getting a liitle old... like being called un-American and UN-patriotic and not supporting the troops because I was against launching and waging an illegal war based on lies and cooked intelligence (in more than one sense of the word).

Obama supporters--- just stop the crap already. If you don't like what you read hear, just LIKE your candidate of preference, you are unimpeded from leaving the discussion.

by JHL 2008-03-31 01:47PM | 0 recs
I also recall a time

when it used to be "conscience first" and country second.  At least, that is what the conscientiosu objectors of war would say when they were avoiding the draft.

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 01:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Neither I nor anyone else here would accuse you of being disloyal to the country, if you decided to vote for a Republican.  Just to the Dem. party, which is what the poster above me was talking about.  

I think that if you truly believe that McCain would make a better President then Obama, you should do exactly that.  I would, however, bet that you will, like most Dems, vote for Obama in the Fall, once the heat of the primary season has subsided.

by Cycloptichorn 2008-03-31 01:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

You'd lose your bet on my vote. BO will never get my vote. Go ahead and call me a Republican... I wouldn't go there if I were you. You have NO idea what it means to vote COUNTRY first if you can then say you are disloyal if you don't vote Dem 100% of the time. Our Party has had its share of BAD candidates and politicians. The Republicans don't have a lock on that. I do NOT believe BO. Therefore I do not trust him to hold the most important and consequential office in the United States. I don't care if he is a Green Party candidate and I am one. He wouldn't get my vote.

by JHL 2008-03-31 02:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I don't believe you.  Nope.  You will likely vote for him in the Fall.  Bluster and tough words, those are great, kid.  But the vast majority of those who talk tough will go along in the end with the eventual nominee.

What is it you don't believe about Obama - that you do believe about McCain?  About Hillary?  I have a hard time believing that the issues don't matter to you at all, and that personality is the only thing you care about.

by Cycloptichorn 2008-03-31 02:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Think what you like... I can assure you there is no bluster here. I am on record on many diaries---there is no circumstance that I will cast my vote for BO. NONE.

I NEVER said "personalities" is the only or any thing I care about. Go read Faith of My Fathers before you say anything about McCain---I would never denegrate him to make sure my candidate won. He is a WAR HERO who gave much more to his country than MOST of the politicians in office NATIONALLY. Do I agree with his policies? No. In the beginning BO and HRC were similar enough that I could have seen myself voting for either one, but I have come to my own decision about BO's campaign tactics, etc (NOTE- I am NOT attacking him or calling him names or villifying him, something other posters might like to try where BOTH candidates are concerned) that I cannot and will not now support him. As for HRC, she shares many of my values and concerns, and in coming to my decision and assessment of her, I feel she is the better and more qualified candidate.

Have ALL the candidates said and done things I frown upon? Absolutely. I am not an idiot or wearing rose-colored glasses. Perhaps if the country AND the candidates had stayed on focus and discussed the issues instead of he said, she said, he's a racist, she's a liar, he's attacking, she's a slime... we'd all be better prepared to accept either candidate as our nominee.

by JHL 2008-03-31 02:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Play the world's smallest violin.

In 2004 11 percent of democrats voted for Bush, while 6 percent of republicans voted for Kerry.  I expect the same polling will happen, but republicans will vote more for Obama.  It is just absurd to think Obama will get every single democratic vote and I for one will not pander to people like you.  You vote for anyone you want I really don't care.  In 2004, there were 60-75 million eligible voters who did not vote so I will be concentrating on those people.  

/Remeber even Bush has a 20% approval rating among republicans

by denounceandreject 2008-03-31 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Pandering to "people like me?" Get off your high horse. Your comments are offensive and ridiculous. And this is why your viewpoints get rejected. Whe you learn how to engage in debate w/o all the bluster, "I know it all" BS, come back and talk to me. Until you can be civil and not so virulent in your "cause" you will never wn over supporters to you candidate. Guaranteed!

by JHL 2008-03-31 02:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Yes, but you've stated that you cannot be won over to Obama, no matter what we say and do.  So what's the point?  

If you are going to vote Dem, do so.  If not, then what are you doing at this site?  Other then trolling it up, that is.

by Cycloptichorn 2008-03-31 02:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

oh play the worlds smallest violin

you might want to voice your frustrations here

http://www.johnmccain.com/

by denounceandreject 2008-03-31 02:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Taunts are really mature... real mature way to have dialogue. I guess that's all you can come up with because you are incapable of any adult debate.

by JHL 2008-03-31 05:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Maturity??

This from someone essentially stating
"If I can't have my canidate.. then damnit you can't have yours either"

by Winterblink 2008-04-01 04:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

You show me where, anywhere on this diary, on this website or ANY other where I said anything of the kind...

This is so typical of Obama supporters it's predictable. Spin, spin, make things up... Winterblink---you copy and paste that I wrote that ANYWHERE, especially since you put it in quotes which not just implies but states as fact that I wrote those exact words. You can't because it's a fallacy, a lie, and an attempt to say it's so just because you wrote it here.

If you can show me where I wrote that, and I'll give you, it doesn't have to even be in quotes---- I'll post this as a diary demonstrating that you were telling the truth and I wasn't. Otherwise, YOU post a diary with an apology to me and everyone else here at MyDD who you've fabricated lies about. Deal?

Better yet, if you DON't take me up on the challenge, I'll post a diary with everything here and your lack of reply. Your choice---put up, or apologize and shut up. And don't give me your "essentially" arguement. You wrote here what I am saying---you back it up.

by JHL 2008-04-01 07:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

You will never vote for Barack. Too bad for you. You are no Democrat.

I voted for Obama, but if HRC is the nom I will heartily support her.

I. Am. A. Democrat.

by dannyinla 2008-03-31 03:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath
Many democrates are not "sheeple" just going along because they are told to. And the older the voters the fewer "go along to get along" voters you will find.
The party does not own the votes of its members it needs to earn them.
The party is being lazy and not earning anything right now.
by J Rae 2008-03-31 08:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Looking at the deep similarities between the two candidates and most Democrats willingness to vote for either, I'm just not sure why the fierce anger at him.  I can understand some of Hillary's supporters' statements that they are afraid he is not as viable in the GE, but that they would vote for him.  What I don't understand is this level of rage.  If you are angry at his supporters, well I don't think that is coming from the top in either campaign.  

We've been called some unpleasant things by Clinton supporters; our rationality and judgment have been called into question pretty frequently, but that would never keep me from voting for her in the General.  I don't think either candidate sanctions this kind of roughness from supporters; it would be self defeating if they did.

At any rate, if he does get the nomination I would hope you could at least take a closer look at him as the campaign progresses, and think of the costs of another 4 years of GOP governance.

by mady 2008-03-31 03:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I don't speak for others, so this is just my opinion
I am angry at Sen. Obama

(a) for the race baiting indulged in by his campaign.  And no, I am not looking for additional evidence to convince me otherwise... I have heard enough at this point.
(b) his stance on some specific issues which is of a non-progressive nature.  And no, the two candidates are not deeply similar in these specific instances.

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 03:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Did you happen to hear his speech on economics at Cooper Union (my alma mater)the other day?  It echoed back to the New Deal, was extremely progressive and right on target.  I am a pretty lefty Democrat and I see the two candidates as similar in policy, just very different in style.  At any rate, I would hope you could at least give that speech a read.

By the way, I voted for Hillary Clinton for Senator and have a great deal of respect for her (not her husband though).  I went through a period of really disliking some of the Clinton chaos enough to consider not voting for her in the GE, but one look at McCain's voting record disabused me of that.

by mady 2008-03-31 03:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Sorry... I did not hear his speech at Cooper Union (where is it, btw).

My biggest problem with Sen. Obama on his economic policy prescription is his plan to raise the cap on social security.  I consider that to be regressive (because the additional revenue will flow into the general fund) even though he is selling it as a mechanism to ensure solvency for the SS program (which is fairly solvent to begin with).

SS cap increase = regressive revenue increase.

I don't care what progressive policies he proposes from that point on ~ his first instinct was regressive.

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 04:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Cooper Union is in Manhattan.

It is also where Lincoln gave his "House Divided" speech, a speech without which he probably would not have become president.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-31 04:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

You learn something new everyday.  As per wikipedia,  they teach engineering too ~ I am an engineer myself.

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 04:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Art, architecture and engineering.  I have a BFA from there, an old one, 1968.  It is a zero tuition private college; I'm not sure there are too many others.

I am not sure I would consider upping the wealthier's contribution to SS regressive, though; to me that would seem more progressive a tax than the way it is now where your payment into the system becomes a smaller and smaller percentage the more you earn.  As a low income person I would strongly support that change.

Here is the speech:

http://stephencrosehome.blogspot.com/200 8/03/obama-cooper-unuion-speech-on-econo my.html

by mady 2008-03-31 04:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Yes, upping the SS cap sounds progressive (let us tax those bastards), until you consider 2 facts:

(a) the SS fund (even with an increased cap) is much more regressive than the general fund
(b) any increase in the SS revenue is used to make up for the shortfall in the general fund.

Therefore, the increase SS cap makes the total system (SS + general) that much more regressive.

And oh, I should look into Cooper Union for my kids.  I like the zero tution aspect =)

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 06:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

In that respect yes, but I was comparing it with the current SS taxation, not the whole picture.

Cooper is only for Art, Architecture, and Engineering, no other majors, so is a good place to try for if your kids have those in mind for careers.

It is a very small school (my entire class was 100 people), but in a great place (Bowery, NYC), and has a great reputation.

by mady 2008-03-31 06:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I know that it is being sold as a progressive change to the SS problem ~ it will make the SS system more solvent AND more progressive.  Most people get fooled by that !!

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 08:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

It seems to be the race-baiting and Hillary character assassination that gets people the most worked up... they think it's despicable and unforgivable the way Hillary (and Bill) have been demonized.

I believe, and many agree, that these strategies come from the very top of the Obama campaign.

by Apostle 2008-03-31 06:34PM | 0 recs
You THINK that way...

And yet we KNOW that the race baiting and character assassination comes directly from the top of the Clinton campaign, because they say it right flat out.

Or is this a situation where it's okay that Clinton's people do it because they never claimed that they'd run a clean campaign in the first place?

Hillary and Bill haven't needed Obama to demonize them, they've done it pretty well themselves.

Imagining that Obama has anything to do with the most damaging story on Clinton, Bosnia, is downright ridiculous.

by Dracomicron 2008-03-31 07:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I get troll rated by HOPE8 for what???? There is NOTHING in my comment to warrant a troll rating. Tell ya what, I'm gonna start keeping a list of this nonsense and I'll pass it along to Jerome. Maybe he can weed you folks out who make it so unpleasant for the rest of us that have to put up with this childishness...

by JHL 2008-03-31 05:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

JHL, are you suggesting that McSame is better for the country?

You mention an "illegal war based on lies and cooked intelligence"  Do you hold McSame blameless?

With due respect to your apparent frustration over Hillary's loss, it seems that you are running the "shtick".

Your "shtick" seems to be that you'd vote McCain out of righteous concern for the USA?  Isn't he part of the problem you derail with no minced words?

How does voting for McSame (a candidate who wholeheartedly endorses that same war) be "best for the country", as defined by your own value system?

Face it, you are angry.  That's the last emotion before acceptance.  When acceptance hits, hopefully so will your Democratic credentials.  Then you will see there is no principle aside from vengeance, behind your potential Presidential selection.  

I'm just wondering why you'd punish yourself for Hillary's loss.  Again, like cutting off your nose to spite your face!

by jv 2008-03-31 02:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

That's the problem with so many non-HRC posters here... You make ASSUMptions. Please show me where I wrote that I would cast my vote fo John McCain... it is plain disrespect to make up these shaeful nicks for ANY of the candidates. And yes, on occasion, , too, have been guilty. But I genuinely TRY not to and conduct myself civilly and respectfully. I can tell you that many people who post here, don't even try.

by JHL 2008-03-31 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

TRY not to and conduct myself UNcivilly and DISrespectfully.

by JHL 2008-03-31 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath
I guess my assumption is that you were gonna follow through with voting for the "good of the country", not sure Ralph Nader or any other third party candidate would fit that billing.
Overall, I think you did intend to suggest McSame and I'm glad that you're resiling from that position.
In any event, sour grapes, not principal or fear is what's behind your motivation.  I "assume' this given your own candidate's unclean hands.
by jv 2008-04-01 10:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Dude, you're the one that called him "Mac". Where I'm from, that's a term of endearment.

By the way, tell Mac I said hi!

by amiches 2008-03-31 01:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

eh, I think you overstate how many people are over zealous for Hillary,

I would be surprised in 5% voted for McCain just because Hillary lost. and i feel I am being generous with 5%.

the only people who will vote McCain over Obama are those who don't care about the Democratic Stance on the issues.

no person who really truly believes in pro-choice, or ending the war will vote McCain.

sorry don't buy the argument.

by TruthMatters 2008-03-31 01:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

ummm...did you know that about 14% of all democrats vote for the republican nominee...in an average election year!!

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 01:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I said would vote from him because they are mad that hillary lost.

thus if 14% is the base, then I say 19% will this year,

I said the crossover due to people mad that hillary lost would be shock me if it hit 5%

by TruthMatters 2008-03-31 01:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

If 19% of all Dems vote for Sen. McCain, then you would have to win every one of those undecided independents, AND pick up quite a few republicans too... merely to avoid losing by a landslide!!

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 03:26PM | 0 recs
2008 ain't your average election year.

Given a decent Democratic turnout, I'd be very surprised to see that large a percentage of Democrats vote Republican this year.

by tbetz 2008-03-31 01:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

So then this year should be no diferent from any other.  I'm know there were those who were up in arms when Edwards didn't get the nomination, and the same for Jerry Brown in '92.  Party defections are common, from both sides.  The invective from Universal will not make this any more or less worse.  

I do not think s/he is a troll, though, because s/he clearly cares about his/her candidate.  S/he has an odd way or expressing it though.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-03-31 01:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I believe conscience and integrity trumps Party. I believe COUNTRY trumps Party. And I believe that every citizen who has the right to vote, should be free of insults, name-calling, offensive statements, etc. in voting for the person of their choice. Hello??? America is a Democracy, not BO-cracy.

by JHL 2008-03-31 01:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Then what were you doing voting in the Democratic Primary?

This isn't saying "if you dont' vote for Obama, you're not a true democrat".  I just think that trying to influence the outcome of a primary that you never had any intention of adhering to is fundamentally dishonest.

by Mostly 2008-03-31 01:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Then base your vote on what's best for the COUNTRY.  Despite your obvious contempt for Obama, you can't really think that the COUNTRY would be better off with 4 years of McCain as President stocking the SCOTUS than with Obama as President.

And this "don't presume I'd vote for McCain" stuff is nonsense - a non-vote is the same as a vote for McCain, because, as a Dem, it's not a non-vote, it's a vote taken away from the Dem candidate.

by ThinkerT 2008-03-31 04:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Your reply is strickly conjecture and your opinion. Not you, or anyone else of the BO campaign will embarrass me, pressure me or thrash me into voting for BO. So go ahead, slam away. Make your baseless accusations, but DON"T DARE tell ME what I should thnk is best for the Country because you say it is. I a sick and tired of all the attacks and insults and BS coming out of any BO supporter who does not support BO. Hw DARE any of you?

by JHL 2008-04-01 07:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath
Exactly a sore loser.
As if this person speaks for millions of Democrats. Oh please... get a life.
by KathyM 2008-03-31 01:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Senator Clinton has  taken talking points from Billy Kristol and employed the Politics of fear with the 3AM add. She followed  radio talk show host Bill Cunninghams lead and instilled doubt in voters to subtly paint Obama as a Muslim. Then she topped it off by singing soprano in the Fox News "Jerimiah Wright & Black Churches are Evil" Choir.

Hillary says she's for health care but and is willing to tear down the party to get it. I beg to differ Hillary just wants to be President. Having tasted the true power of the office she is like a crack addict reaching for a another hit, and she will do anything to get it. Gender, Race, religion , I'm just wondering what new republican strategy she will adopt. It's not hard to see she has "Presidentialitis" bad.

Maybe it is the money that steers her, only worth about $400k  the first year after Bill drew his first check as Prez, nowadays the Clintons are worth a reported $55 million. Perhaps there are some things they need to tidy up from the first Clinton administrations. There are a lot of un-answered questions about John Haung, and the Clinton Machine. I'll just say that, that is all Republican cannon fodder that is in store for her and they have file cabinets full of it.

I'm not calling for Hillary to drop out of the race. I just want her to quit "Dogging Out" the Party because she ran a shoddy  failing campaign. If the way she ran her campaign is an indication of how she will lead the country... There will be no Health care for all... not if she has anything to do with it.

by Jeff Y 2008-03-31 08:51PM | 0 recs
How nice of you to tell us all what to think, do,

say.

I don't come here to convince a soul of anything. I come here because there is so much disinformation here that I feel like someone needs to throw some reality into this echo chamber.

I don't care what anyone thinks of my views, or me, or whether I'm a good or a bad Democrat. Likewise, I don't answer to anyone, nor am I obliged to do what anyone here tells me to. I attempt to follow the rules of this board, because I choose to. I certainly don't feel any need to take direction from this diarist.

by Travis Stark 2008-03-31 01:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

caring about the party means caring about the issues,

no Democrat will vote for a republican over a democrat when it comes to

Abortion
war in iraq
healthcare
economy
tax cuts

sorry but if you look at that list and say John McCains platform is better then Barack Obama's then no you are not a democrat.

at best you were an Independent who leans left, but not a democrat.

by TruthMatters 2008-03-31 01:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Check your list again... There are many Democrats who are Pro-Life... Bob Casey Jr. ring a bell??
There are many Democrats who support the war in Iraq---Joe Lieberman (was a Dem until he lost his primary and changed parties so he could run again)

Tax cuts??? The economy? Typically the economy and healthcare are HUGE Democratic issues... but many have voted for Republicans for third-party candidates because other issues were moe important to them...

So d't be throwing lists out in the discussion that do NOT help your argument at all.

And as a Democrat I resent you deciding what I should be labeld based on your own narrow view.

by JHL 2008-03-31 02:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Yes, there are many Democrats who don't match up with every position on that list. However, there are no Democrats who don't match up with ANY position on that list.

I realize some folks love this little routine of flirting with McCain in order to show how they're so willing to go nuclear if they don't get their way. But it's quite tiresome.

If you want to vote for McCain, go vote for McCain. Stop thinking everyone's going to beg you to stay or change their vote because you've threatened to take your ball and go home. Don't let the door hit ya!

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-03-31 02:27PM | 0 recs
Bob Casey, Jr.

I'm surprised that you'd bring him up, because he's endorsing Obama, despite being pro-life.  Doug Kmiec, a solid Catholic Republican, is also endorsing Obama despite being pro-life, because he realizes that McCain cannot be relied on not to flip-flop on the issue and he believes that Obama will be more thoughtful and respectful, and that his policies will lead to fewer abortions being committed overall.

The fact of the matter is that McCain's platform is counter to just about 100% of the overall Democratic agenda.  If you believe that he is a liar and will definitely flip on the items that are important to you, then, by all means, help him beat Obama.  

by Dracomicron 2008-03-31 02:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I was a Democrat before Barack Obama was born.  I've been a party activist for almost 50 years.  I have never missed voting in an election and I've never voted for a Republican.  Come November I may do what was once unthinkable - leave the presidential choice blank.

by Tolstoy 2008-03-31 03:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

While I don't know your personal reasons, I'd say that if they're due to abuse you've taken from Obama supporters on the blogs, then please reconsider.  The internet is full of wannabe tough guys, safe at home, and the most abusive people represent a vocal minority.

Not sure what else to say.

Hope you vote Democrat for President.

by freedom78 2008-03-31 05:28PM | 0 recs
linfar and uni are Rovian trolls and their words

come straight from Karl Rove.

by Carcas 2008-03-31 01:35PM | 0 recs
Re: linfar and uni are Rovian trolls and their wor

what is with u kossacks?

by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor 2008-03-31 02:15PM | 0 recs
MyDD commenters arent running for prez

so why are you basing your entire political opinion of Obama on bloggers?

by omar little 2008-03-31 01:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I have my own set of issues, but I agree with what Universal says here.

I suppose I must be a Republican troll too =)

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 01:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

If you are willing to vote for John W McBush because you are pissed that your candidate didn't win the primary, then yes.  

by bawbie 2008-03-31 01:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Where did Universal say HE was going to vote for McCain?

There is a third choice, you know - not voting at the top of the ticket.

by cmugirl90 2008-03-31 01:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

...and don't forget Nader.

And Mickey Mouse.

by jwolf 2008-03-31 01:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

It amounts to the same thing.  

by Mostly 2008-03-31 01:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Oh, and another thing...

I do not denigrate candidates that I do not support by making up silly names for them.

I have tried to call Sen. Obama by his proper name and title (sometimes I use appreviated initials BHO or BO if I am lazy; I am consistent in that I also use HRC at times when I am lazy).

I find this John W McBush namecalling somewhat childish.  Likewise, I find the "Clintonista" and "Billary" references equally childish.

And finally, I did not say that I was going to vote for "John W McBush", or that I would do so because my candidate didn't win... it is amazing that one can make 2 incorrect assumptions in one sentence.

"My candidate" has already lost and dropped out ~ and I will, in all likelihood, abstain... if the democratic nominee is not to my liking.

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 01:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I have never called Hillary or any other Democrat by anything other than their names, because I respect them.

I don't have the same level of respect for Republicans, so I'll call them whatever I please.

If you are not voting for the Democrat then you might as well be voting for McCain, because it has the exact same effect.

by bawbie 2008-03-31 03:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Sen. McCain is a decorated war hero, and the most famous prisoner of war in history.  His capture by Vietnam was celebrated by a monument in Vietnam ~ his father was the Admiral in charge of the US fleet in the Pacific.  He could have walked away from the Hanoi Hilton at any point, had he been willing to give the Vietnamese some propoganda value.  Instead, he chose to stay, and was subjected to torture.

I don't know about you, but I would probably not have that kind of courage.  You can disagree with him on issues, and make a case that he would be a terrible President.  You could even make a case that he has flip flopped on issue.

But, to cut a long story short...the least you can do is address him by his proper name.

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 04:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

How about it has noting to do with our candidate losing and EVERYTHING to do with not believing in the capabilities of the alternative the Party foists upon us???

by JHL 2008-03-31 01:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Part of being a member of a political party is that you accept who gets nominated.  If you never had any intention of voting for any democrat other than Hillary, then why did you bother voting in the primary?

by Mostly 2008-03-31 01:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

That is not how a democracy works...

you are allowed to regret, repent and change your mind...just because you vote one way one day (and accept all the restrictions imposed by that one vote one day) does not mean that you are required to vote that way for the rest of your lives... or even on the next day !!

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 01:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

That's not my point.

What I'm saying is that you shouldn't be trying to influence the outcome of a primary if you have no intention of voting for the winner.  

by Mostly 2008-03-31 02:03PM | 0 recs
Just out of curiosity...

Did you also say that to the guys who were running around with the "Republicans for a day" flyers ?

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 02:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Just out of curiosity...

Troll rated by ragekage... I suppose he must have been running around with "Republicans for a day flyers"

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 04:18PM | 0 recs
Just out of curiosity...

Did you also say that to the guys who were running around with the "Democrats for a day" flyers ?

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 02:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Just out of curiosity...

What, troll rated by ragekage again ?  Was he running around with "Democrats for a day" flyers too ?

by SevenStrings 2008-03-31 04:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Just out of curiosity...

Belated response:

I have no idea what "Democrats for a day" is.

by Mostly 2008-04-01 07:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Just out of curiosity...

I am going to assume that you are honest in your response, so I will give you a full faith answer

Sen. Obama's campaign had flyers made up that advertised the requirements for being able to vote in the Democratic primaries :  All you have to do, is to register as a Democrat for a day.  These flyers were targeted at Republicans/Independents who could be pursuaded to vote for Sen. Obama, but who did not want to vote for the Democratic nominee in the fall.

You do know that Sen. Clinton leads Sen. Obama in the popular vote amongst Democrats and Independents (i.e., when you exclude all Republicans), as per the exit poll results.

by SevenStrings 2008-04-01 10:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I am torn because I have not yet been convinced that supporting BHO is not a dangerously reckless gamble with the future of our country.  I don't trust him anymore, it's that simple, and he's gonna have a hell of a lot of work to do to get me to pull the lever for him in the fall...

by jarhead5536 2008-03-31 02:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

What is it you think he's going to do, when elected, that would be so bad?  Specifically.  What policies or positions are you worried about?

by Cycloptichorn 2008-03-31 02:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

His race based social philosophy is very concerning to me.  Threw gays under the bus to pander to blacks in SC, openly supported black liberation theology his entire adult life, some of Michelle Obama's comments.  All this, even though there's all his talk about being post-racial.  It doesn't jibe, and I can't seem to reconcile his words with his actions.

That said, he is too green and naive to run this country.  He has no clue how Washington works, and he's not tough enough for what's coming.  Does he think the Republicans are going to look at him and say "Oh well, here's a new kind of politician!  Let's give him a chance to promote his agenda, because he's new!  Change! Change! Change! Si su puede!!!!"

Post-partisan is a bunch of crap, and anyone who's spent any time around national politics knows this...

by jarhead5536 2008-03-31 02:20PM | 0 recs
HRC Supporters Precipitate Apocalypse

The (kinda) funny thing is, if the "Hillary or Else" crowd stamps their little feet enough to get John "Bomb,Bomb,Bomb Iran" McCain elected, your cute signature could actually become fact.

Then you could really say how smart you were!

by jwolf 2008-03-31 02:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Two comments:

First, I doubt that Obama actually has supported any real 'black liberation' philosophy, personally, during his adult life.  I don't believe that his church is the group of demons that people make them out to be.

Second, I think that it's pretty funny that an anonymous poster on a weblog would criticize Obama, an elected Senator, for 'not knowing how Washington works.'  Really?  He's WORKING there right now, and you and I are typing on a message board; and he doesn't understand what's going on, and we do?  lol!

So, you are claiming that Obama just isn't going to be able to get anything done in Washington?  With a dem-controlled house and senate?  That's a little tough to swallow.

by Cycloptichorn 2008-03-31 02:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I'm not sure what you mean by "race based social philosophy."  For example, he's discussed an affirmative action approach that's more based on poverty than on race or sex.  This struck a chord with me, as someone who often wondered "what will we do if AA works perfectly, but we're still left with just as many who are undereducated and poor...just not disproportionately so by race".

Regarding gays, I hate to say it but there's a pretty widely accepted policy of throwing that constituency under the bus.  No major candidate, to my knowledge, came out in favor of gay marriage, as I personally would have liked.

I suppose one's take on black liberation theology depends on what aspects achieve emphasis.  Like all liberation theology, social justice is at its core, and that's certainly not in conflict with liberalism.  I suppose some take it to a black supremacy extreme, others to simply black empowerment.  But at its core is social justice, even if some fight for that justice in unacceptable ways.

Did Obama ever use the phrase "post-racial"?  I honestly don't know.  But either way, I suppose we see this idea differently.  I think it means he can be himself, a mixed-race but mostly-self identified black man, without being the candidate whose sole purpose is to advance the causes of blacks.  Others seem to think it means that he's NON-racial...a completely PC politician with no identity...which is a claim he couldn't possibly live up to.

Regarding being green and naive, I suppose that's a matter of opinion.  But you just discounted as "not tough enough" the same guy who's currently leading Hillary Clinton...the one we consider "tough."  I'm forced to wonder how the weak candidate is beating the tough one, unless at least one of those perceptions is faulty.  And, since I've no reason to believe that Hillary, considering all she's been through, is any less than an incredibly tough individual, I'm inclined to think that Obama is tougher than some give him credit for    

by freedom78 2008-03-31 05:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Universal has been very concerned about this issue for a long time.  Sadly though, Universal is unable to point to any comment or diary on this or any other site expressing his concern about the disenfranchisement of MI and FL prior to Super Tuesday. Until he does so, I suggest we leave him alone with his righteous outrage.

by interestedbystander 2008-03-31 01:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

This diary is the best argument I've read in favor of the rejection of Clinton's campaign and its tactics.  I know that even commenting is feeding the troll, but still: everyone should read this diary very carefully.

Thanks for the clear-eyed picture of your motives and intentions.

by Koan 2008-03-31 01:44PM | 0 recs
&quot;We control ...

...whether or not he gets elected."

Wow...you are on some power trip there. I guess hanging out at hillis44 does that to a person.

Kind of reminds me of the Bush Admin mindset going into the Iraq War. All they heard were their own voices saying how great and powerful they were. Turns out...not so much.

Don't let your uid go to your head.  

by JoeCoaster 2008-03-31 01:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Your vote is exactly that - your vote.  If you decide to vote for John McCain, it's not the fault of me or Barack Obama or Al Gore or Patrick Leahy or Rachel Maddow or whoever it is that's got you pissed off this time.

by Mostly 2008-03-31 01:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I suspect Universal is secretly an Obama supporter who is trolling on these boards to make Hillary look bad.  

A job well done, too.  Good work, Uni! ::wink wink::

by XoFalconXo 2008-03-31 01:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I am simply amazed that Jerome lets this idiot (that would be Universal) ruin his blog with his petty whining. This is going to be a lonely place next November.

by jwolf 2008-03-31 01:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Apparently you haven't been here for the last 3 months.  This site has turned into a complete landfill for all the hate from both sides.  Though I will say the most vocal are the few Hillary supporters (you know who you are).

by SocialDem 2008-03-31 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Ah, the bitterness.  There is no constructive way to talk to Clinton supporters, as is they want no parts of it if their candidate is not topping the ticket.  But what if the proverbial shoe were on the other foot?  Then they would make the SAME arguments that Obama supporters are making.  You'll say that we need to support the "Democratic" agenda by voting for her.  I will say this:  Each candidate has approximately half the Democratic party in their camp.  Neither can win with out most of the other camp coming over.  I guarantee you that if Obama wins fair and square, most Democrats will support him.  However, if Hillary doesn't win out and THEN some, and she somehow gets the nom, good luck trying to get that other half to come over.  Just my two cents.

by Inmyforces 2008-03-31 01:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

This is not about Hillary losing.  This is about Obama not being a suitable option.  I do not trust him, and I fear for the future of the country if he is elected.  I hope I am proved wrong, but he really worries me...

by jarhead5536 2008-03-31 02:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Why?

Do you think he is incompetent? Has he demonstrated that he does not understand the issues?

Do you think he is racist? do you think he will lead a black separatist revoltion?

So you think he is a Muslim? A radical Islamist?

Seriously, why do you not trust him? Why are you scared?

At worst he might make some wrong decisions, just like Hillary might. But he isn't going to betray the Democrats or America any time soon, and he isn't going to continue Dubya's policies like McCain. Now please, stop with the concern. He might not be your preferred candidate, but he is suitable for the nomination. Saying otherwise is just ridiculous.

by grass 2008-03-31 03:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Haha your candidate is gonna lose!

by XoFalconXo 2008-03-31 01:54PM | 0 recs
no, Haha your candidate is gonna lose!

by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor 2008-03-31 02:19PM | 0 recs
Re: no, Haha your candidate is gonna lose!

Poopie-head!

by XoFalconXo 2008-03-31 02:21PM | 0 recs
such children

by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor 2008-03-31 02:32PM | 0 recs
Re: such children

Precisely.  If Universal is so intent on lowering the level of discourse, I'm happy to oblige him/her.

by XoFalconXo 2008-03-31 02:35PM | 0 recs
so noble of you

by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor 2008-03-31 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

our party is going to lose.

by campskunk 2008-03-31 03:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath


WOW! A Hillary supporter finally saying aloud what she's threatening in the backrooms:

"If Obama wins the nomination, which is a long way from now, the Clinton backers hold all the cards. We control whether or not he gets elected, or is at least competitive. We can turn the primary into the largest Pyrrhic victory since who knows when."

Unbelievable.  That is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.  
Sore losers.  Have some humility.  I know the Clintons don't have nay but that doesn't mean that the rank and file shouldnt remind them that they're NOT ABOVE THE PARTY!

by jv 2008-03-31 01:59PM | 0 recs
Another patheitic

crack pot diary by Universial.  I must say I am no longer surprised by the garbage on this website anymore.  Do you think that your incessant whinning is going to win Hillary the  nomination?

by SocialDem 2008-03-31 02:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Another patheitic

Or I could troll rate all your comments like a child too

by SocialDem 2008-03-31 02:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Another patheitic

Of course not.  He's a republican Moby.  Best ignore him.

by interestedbystander 2008-04-01 12:52PM | 0 recs
Universal, you usually

have been better than this.

This diary expresses anger, but it is not useful to Senator Clinton or Democrats.

What Clinton and Obama need to do is articulte their vision for America and fight on issues.

by TomP 2008-03-31 02:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Universal, you usually

Thank you

by SocialDem 2008-03-31 02:29PM | 0 recs
Hahaha!

Get a grip. Deep breaths.

Yes, Universal, you're exactly the guy who comes to mind who's credible making that statement.

I would add that threats carry more weight coming from someone who's been, like, right about stuff. Since you obviously don't fall into that category, in evidence of which I note your diary history, your opinions on this or any other matter, really, can be safely stowed in whichever dusty and unvisited place people have cast your various contributions in their minds.

Have an awesome day :-)

by MBNYC 2008-03-31 02:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath


"We Hillary backers are prepared to sacrifice our short-term goal of winning the White House in order to intervene in what we consider to be the hijacking of our party Obama and many of his seemingly zealot followers have undertaken"

The unseemly hijacking by that bunch of 'zealot followers' is called democracy. When more people vote for you than the other person, you win. Now I know it's tough to lose, but Hillary doesn't own the Democratic party.

Please remember that Senators Clinton and Obama share most of the same positions and that McCain will (further) destroy this planet. Getting revenge for a tough primary to spite Obama supporters is almost insane.

by grass 2008-03-31 02:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I'm sorry, but all the votes aren't in.

by Scotch 2008-03-31 03:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

And when they're in, and Hillary loses as is almost mathematically ensured, will you change your tune?

by amiches 2008-03-31 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

Good post.  It's hard to explain to the Obamites what what is happening, but this is an excellent start.

I see constant beratement, etc., that we will 'come around' in Nov.  But the chances are that many of us won't.  Whether or not it's enough to affect the outcome of the election remains to be seen, but that's not the point.

The point is, our actions will not be about revenge.  They will be more along the lines of civil disobedience.  It's about what kind of party we want to belong to, and we don't want to belong to one that supports the type of tactics and philosophies that we see coming from the Obama camp.

by RobinLB 2008-03-31 02:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

"It's about what kind of party we want to belong to, and we don't want to belong to one that supports the type of tactics and philosophies that we see coming from the Obama camp."

You mean like getting out of Iraq?

You mean like a sane tax policy?

You mean getting away from Republican economics and deregulation?

You mean like giving a voice back the working class and middle class people?

You mean like creating a Democratic majority for the next generation?

You mean like fighting global warming?

You mean like returning civil liberties stolen from back to the people?

The list could go on.  If you disagree with those ultimate goals than how can you be a Democrat?
It is fair to argue the means to those goals but to act as if Obama doesn't share Democratic values is just disingenous.

by SocialDem 2008-03-31 02:35PM | 0 recs
Civil disobedience?

Make no mistake about it. Whatever Obama might be Hillary Clinton IS the ESTABLISHMENT candidate.

Winning by triangulation of a 50%+1 strategy is NOT grassroots.

The reason why Obama is winning is because people were performing the acts of "civil disobidience" against Hillary Clinton.

by kindthoughts 2008-03-31 07:12PM | 0 recs
Obama Supporters

Obama supporters:

If you think that this diary and the diary below this one, comparing Barack Obama to George Wallace, are prime examples of what is wrong with this site, I would encourage you to do as I have done and let the site administrators know using the contact link at the bottom of the page. It is no use getting drawn into this crud just so the diarist can turn around and troll rate as many Obama supporters as possible.

by Travis Stark 2008-03-31 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters

Thank you Universal for your troll rating which so nicely proves my point!

by Travis Stark 2008-03-31 03:05PM | 0 recs
Hey Universal

They were just talking about you over at DKos.  A number of people want to nominate you for 'Troll I'd Most Like to Have a Beer With' in the contest on TPM.  

There's a lively discussion on TPM going on as to who wins the title.  It may already be sewn up by now but you might go over and check to see if you can get your name in the running.

by GFORD 2008-03-31 02:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Hey Universal

Do you think we give a fuck about what they say on Daily Kos?

by Scotch 2008-03-31 03:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Hey Universal

Nope.

by GFORD 2008-03-31 03:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Hey Universal

Oh, I'm sorry Ragekage. Did that challenge your affection for them?  

by Scotch 2008-03-31 04:02PM | 0 recs
OMG!!! Take Cover!

There is too much sniper fire from the Clintonistas here at MyDLC today..

Duck!  RUUNNN!!  I'm outta here...

by baghdadjoe 2008-03-31 02:53PM | 0 recs
2. The Supreme Court argument

This isn't a game where you sulk because your feelings get hurt. Didn't Bill Clinton tell everyone to Cowboy Up the other day?

We could very well lose Ruth Bader Ginsburg in the next few years. Go ahead and walk out on the Democratic Party. The history books will devote a sentence to our little civil war right now . . . but they will devote PAGES to all the reactionary decisions of a conservative Supreme Court.

:o(

by Veteran75 2008-03-31 02:56PM | 0 recs
Universal, you are my hero.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for telling it the way it is for many Clinton supporters.  The way I feel right now, I'm voting for Hillary Clinton in November whether her name's on the ballot or I have to put it there myself.

by izarradar 2008-03-31 03:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Universal, you are my hero.

Er, you do know Universal is a Moby don't you?

by interestedbystander 2008-04-01 01:00PM | 0 recs
To Pro-Choice Women &amp; Hillary Supporters

Universal is giving us a recipe to the eventual overturning of Roe v. Wade.

See my diary "So You're Thinking About Voting For McCain Ay?"  about the aging of liberal/moderate justices that are likely to retire in the in the next 4-8 years.

by mikelewis68 2008-03-31 03:03PM | 0 recs
Re: A McCain Win

No. The media, the superdelegates, the assholes like Leahy, Pelosi, and Dodd, who are calling for Clinton to drop out of the campaign, ignoring millions of voters, and our democracy, for their own and their candidates benefit are mixing the recipe for McCain's win.  The nasty insulting lies charging the Clintons of racism, the nasty insulting obama bloggers, and pundits like those on MSNBC, and superdelegates like Jim Zogby on Lou Dobbs right now, are the people who can take the blame for a McCain win in the fall.  Don't even try to blame anyone else.

by Scotch 2008-03-31 03:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Let's Be Adults

I think it's in all of us as individual voters to be adults and set aside our disappointments.
As much as partisan I am for Obama and  will remain so until we have a winner, I am not so delusional that I can't see that Clinton, should she win the nomination, is much better for liberal/progressive causes than staying home on election day or voting for McCain.

We all need to be adults.

by mikelewis68 2008-03-31 03:22PM | 0 recs
&quot;Mahmeeee!! Make the bad men stop talking!!!

...Or I'll hold my bref until I turn blue!!"

This is really what you sound like -- shoving off the responsibility for your refusal to vote for a Democrat, and the inevitable consequences thereof, on everyone but yourself.

As Bill Clinton said, mount up!

by tbetz 2008-03-31 03:48PM | 0 recs
BO's only chance is to quit now.

Whatever happens, in 2012 Hillary will still be standing. Someone with her stature and history won't be hurt by a narrow victory by McCain, and her position won't damage the Dem party.

Obama couldn't survive a defeat by McCain. He's too thin, ambiguous. He and the Dems would be branded by whatever label the GOP wants to put on them -- like McGovern in 72. The GOP won't even have to invent stuff -- WRight is true.

Obama's teenyboppers will get bored (if they even last through Nov). His thugs will outgrow some of their testesterone. Michelle won't let him run again anyway.

Obama's only hope is to drop out now, get a lot of good publicity, maybe retire to govern some little red state. Let FOX turn their fire on Hillary. Hope in a few years Wright and Rezko are forgotten.

Then in 2016 after the Clintons clean up after Bush Jr and clean up the Nov voting process, Obama can try again with their blessing and maybe actually win.

by 1950democrat 2008-03-31 04:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I suspect that the actual outcome from the sore loser actions you threaten would be:

1) (probable) The end for hil, as her ego and her supporters are blamed for the pubs keeping the White House.

2) (likely) The end of all that was good about this country, as you complete the corrupt takeover of the courts and the DOJ.

But have at it.

by wrb 2008-03-31 03:11PM | 0 recs
I invite all commenters here who

want to defeat John McCain regardless of the nominee (hell I'd vote for a democratic ticket of My space heater/box fan over a John McCain led ticket) in November to come over to my thread here:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/31/1683 4/5287

I apologize for the thread hijacking in principle but feel it is okay here due to the vitriolic nature this diary has descended t.o

Because our down ballot candidates don't need the head wind from a fractured party, because we want health care, because democrats are sick of republican rule!

I can understand Universal's anger as many attacks against him have gotten personal, just in the time it has been here, but the solution to the anger is not to fueled it back on itself.  The solution is to come together and have a laugh (Here John McCain's policies can provide that laugh, he thinks what about HIV, he thinks what about the economy).

Final note, the only non anti-McCain things I've posted here were a piece on health care (which actually got some views) and a pro-Clinton piece saying that she wasn't a party wrecker like some of the over zealous Obama supporters believe.

Peace.

by Student Guy 2008-03-31 03:20PM | 0 recs
You guys blew it, badly

Yeah, Obama blew it by winning. Go figure.

In either case, I see about 10-20 hyper-pissed off Hillary-fanatics here. If we lose them so what, we'll pick up enough sane republicans to more than make up for it.

by Chimpeach 2008-03-31 03:48PM | 0 recs
Re: You guys blew it, badly
bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha hahahahah
Obama picking up sane Republicans? You are so totally insane.He picked up some already, but for a day in the rigged past caucuses, and it  was exactly that: for a day. If Hillary supporters won't vote for him, it sure won't be republicans, because if there is one factor they would consider it would be a candidate who were really patriotic and that didn't harbor anger towards the American people.
Obama will be one of the greatest losers this country has ever seen if, god forbid, he wins the nomination by stealing the election. The people of America will never condomne that.
by RC01 2008-03-31 04:29PM | 0 recs
Re: You guys blew it, badly

you are one of those bitter-hillary supporters that I'd be happy to see leave the party.

A mild-mannered republican would be a lot better than a bitter Hillary Party member pretending to be a democrat.

by Chimpeach 2008-04-01 04:39AM | 0 recs
hahahaha

you knocked alegre off the rec list.  Must be irritating to her, a genuine Democrat who supports Hillary Clinton, to be upstaged by a clever rightwing troll pretending to support Hillary Clinton.

by Skaje 2008-03-31 04:15PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

This diary is reminiscent of the worst kind of myopic views seen among groups who ridiculously fight while outsiders ask "what are they fighting about, again?".  

I am continually stunned by the inability or unwillingness of supporters of either side to consider things from the opposing perspective, ignorant of the fact that there are two sides to any story and that both sides have perfectly valid grievances.  If you're wondering if I'm talking about you, you're probably the ones who just shook your head "No" during that last sentence.

There are a LOT of complaints in this diary.  And I'll admit that most are reasonable.  But there isn't a generic complaint in the bunch that doesn't apply to both sides, and there isn't a specific complaint that can't be matched by some complaint from Obama's supporters.  Again, if you're thinking "what bullshit" right now, then you're likely who I'm talking about.  

And the truth of the matter is that, if Hillary Clinton were currently ahead, it would likely be the Obama supporters ranting and raving about their campaign complaints, and making threats, and pointing fingers.  

BOTH SIDES HAVE LEGITIMATE COMPLAINTS!

SUPPORTERS OF BOTH CANDIDATES HAVE ACTED LIKE ASSHOLES!

Whether we're the complainers, the antagonizers, or the ones who troll rate the other side when the complain but ignore our own when we antagonize, we're ALL guilty to some extent.  There are a LOT of passionate people here, and either Democrat would be lucky to have their support and their efforts.  

Take some time to consider the BELIEFS of the other side.  In many cases, they're reasonable, even if they're arrived at using a different set of preferences and logic than your own.  

by freedom78 2008-03-31 04:20PM | 0 recs
WWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

Jesus H Christ I have never read such bytching and moaning from apparently voting aged adults in my life.

We Hillary backers are prepared to sacrifice our short-term goal of winning the White House in order to intervene in what we consider to be the hijacking of our party Obama and many of his seemingly zealot followers have undertaken.

The above is why I don't even believe you people are actual Democrats. Hillary herself would probably slap you upside your head if she heard you say that. By all means, go and support McCain and sit idly by as every issue you CLAIM to be passionately supporting (universal health care, reproductive rights, and a government not beholden to the top 1%) is wilfully ignored. Then again, considering you guys are probably Republicans anyways, that probably doesn't sound like such a bad thing.

by highgrade 2008-03-31 04:21PM | 0 recs
Re: WWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

Freeperversal is no Democrat...

by NJIndependent 2008-03-31 04:31PM | 0 recs
Re: WWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

Absolutely.  It's the Ralph Nader argument - "Don't blame me for Bush getting elected, blame yourself for not catering to what I want".  It's a cop-out.  YOUR VOTES are what put people in the White House, not Pelosi's or any Obama supporter's actions.  If you vote for McCain or don't vote, allowing McCain to become Pres by inaction, it's YOUR FAULT for YOUR ACTIONS, not because someone somewhere else did something or didn't do something and you didn't like it.  And I say this regardless of who the nominee is.

If you don't like the candidate, work on fixing it the next election cycle.  Don't screw the rest of the country for 4 years just so you can say "see, I told you so!".  

by ThinkerT 2008-03-31 04:40PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers:

Yes, the daily slimy GOP-style hit piece from Freeperversal!  No day could be complete without it.

You're a disgrace to your candidate and to the Democratic party.

by NJIndependent 2008-03-31 04:28PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

So basically, if you don't get your way you're going to vote for the other side.  And "wahhhh."

Got it.  And if that's the case, maybe it's time the Democratic Party be broken down into the DLC and progressive camps anyway.  It's long been a sore point.

by Drummond 2008-03-31 04:30PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

It's the million woman hissy fit that's going to put an end to Roe v Wade.  How ironic...

by NJIndependent 2008-03-31 04:36PM | 0 recs
except for the fact

that I'm a progressive, and I don't support Obama.

This isn't about progressives vs. the DLC...this is about racebaiters vs. long-time democrats who know what is and isn't racism.

by SoCalVet 2008-03-31 04:38PM | 0 recs
Here's the fact

What this is about is either voting for a Democrat or voting for a Republican. Obviously, McCain can count on your vote.

by jwolf 2008-03-31 05:32PM | 0 recs
Re: except for the fact

Clinton is the DLC candidate.  That's a fact.

by Drummond 2008-03-31 07:13PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

If Florida and Michigan are not fully seated at the convention, Democrats have absolutely no hope of winning the White House.

by zenful6219 2008-03-31 04:30PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* Michigan and Florida

They will be seated.

by highgrade 2008-03-31 04:37PM | 0 recs
Hell f*cking yeah!

Thank you so much for so eloquently putting into a diary what I feel.

I will NEVER vote for Obama, and I have voted for the Democratic nominee since 1980 when I first was able to vote.  

In fact, not only will I NEVER vote for Obama, but I will work to see him defeated whenever possible.  I gave money to Hillary today.  

The day the Clintons became racists was the day that Obama lost me forever.

by SoCalVet 2008-03-31 04:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Hell f*cking yeah!

Hillary has already said that either of them would be far preferable to McCain. I would hope her supporters would listen to her.

I remember arguing with Nader supporters in 2000. I still hold them responsible for all that Bush wrought.  

I've been angry at Clinton from time to time but I would never do anything that would help a Republican get elected president. Haven't you seen the damage they can do? And McCain is anti-choice and pro-war.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-31 04:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Hell f*cking yeah!

Exactly! The race card was beyond abhorrent and forever inexcusable. I too plan on volunteering for McCain, if that phony wins the nomination, and I'm sure there are thousands more that feel this way.

by RC01 2008-03-31 05:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Hell f*cking yeah!

"I will work to see him defeated whenever possible."

I guess we all have priorities. My priority is getting a DEM elected, and that is why I picked Clinton over the more qualified Tsongas in 1992.

I thought MyDD was made up of Democrats, but if you decide to become an Independent that is your right.

by Veteran75 2008-03-31 06:07PM | 0 recs
First, take three grains of salt....

I think this diary has a good point -- don't take Hillary supporters for granted if BO should get the nom.

But on a quick read, it sounds like believing some BO camp claims of some sort of victory. Big bluff, more like. Their 8 MC SD's turn out to be 1. Their 50 SD's after TX turned out to be ... Judas?

They've got rats jumping onto Obama's sinking ship to try to prevent it sinking. Lots of luck. They know they can jump off again later.

Hillary can't be bluffed. She will be in Denver fighting for FL and MI as long as it takes. AFter a few more elections she'll have official "the popular vote." She's already got the vote of Democrats, and the vote of 50 states, and the most electoral votes, etc. The real, realistic metrics that count toward November.

At some point some survival instinct will click in, and people will switch to the one who can beat McCain. (Even if it takes a few more months, and Obama in jail with Rezko.)

Dean and Pelosi etc (and probably Obama) are just playing drag race chicken. Eventually they'll swerve toward survival.

by 1950democrat 2008-03-31 04:39PM | 0 recs
Re: First, take three grains of salt....

Why are you so filled with bitterness?

Senator Klobuchar and Governor Richardson and Senator Casey are RATS?  

Might they simply have a sincere disagreement with you?

Oh, and on who can win in November?
http://www.gallup.com/poll/105904/Dems-R eps-Agree-Obama-Tougher-Opponent-McCain. aspx
Democrats were asked whether Clinton or Obama has the better chance of defeating McCain in November: 59% say Obama does; 30% say Clinton. Republicans were asked whether McCain has a better chance of defeating Clinton or Obama on Election Day. Sixty-four percent say McCain has a better chance of beating Clinton, compared with only 22% choosing Obama, meaning Republicans view Obama as the more formidable candidate.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-31 04:47PM | 0 recs
Re: First, take three grains of salt....

Your anger just makes you crazy.

She's was a middling, cautious, finger-in-the-wind, Broderist senator, she voted for Bush's war, she ran a lousy campaign.

She has no one to blame but herself for choosing caution over leadership, timidity over boldness and accomodation instead of "fighting".

If she had shown any of the grit and determination in fighting Bush's assault on the Constitution that she's shown in smearing and lying about Obama because he had the effrontery to be a better politician than she is when she thinks she's "entitled" to something, maybe she wouldn't have to resort to BushRove tactics and fight so hard to get the rules changed just so she could lose by a little bit less.

by BlueinColorado 2008-03-31 04:55PM | 0 recs
First, take three deep breaths...

Excellent summation of Hillary's campaign, Blue. But despite all the nastiness, if she should somehow get the nomination ( even by nefarious means!), I will move hell and earth to vote for her.

Unfortunately, I rarely hear the same from the Clinton Die-Hards, and that is the most frightening thought of all, that these people would actually prefer a motherf*cking REPUBLICAN back in the White House after 8 years of living in a nightmare world of war, environmental destruction, and an economy on the brink of disaster.

by jwolf 2008-03-31 05:26PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

This thread:

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by empath 2008-03-31 04:41PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

This diary is grotesque.

by mikeinsf 2008-03-31 04:51PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

Ooooh... a troll rating.  Fair enough, Universal. Really, though, get out and take a walk. It might clear your head.  Th election will still be going on (and on and on), with Obama as Darth Vader to Hillary's Skywalker.  I doubt you'll miss much.

by mikeinsf 2008-03-31 05:33PM | 0 recs
I think both candidates are running

a good campaign. While I might wish the campaign had stayed on higher ground for the entire primary, I would gladly support either candidate for President. What matters are the issues, not petty personality cults. Both Obama and Hillary are excellent individuals. After the primary, let's focus on the real enemy, John McCain and the Republicans who have driven our country into the ditch.

by SleepingWillow 2008-03-31 04:52PM | 0 recs
Unity

If Obama should win, there will come a time when all reasonable Democrats will need to look in the mirror and ask themselves whether they can in good conscience support 4 more years of corrupt Republican rule or whether this time we will ALL stand together.  Everyone who struggles to promote American progressivism, whether Obama supporters or not, should reject efforts like this to divide the one party whose success will do the most to effectuate that goal and whose success depends, above all else, in our unity.

by DreamsOfABlueNation 2008-03-31 04:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Unity

Let's unite around Hillary then, because she is the only one that stand a chance to win the GE.

by RC01 2008-03-31 05:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Unity

I am not telling people to rally around Obama NOW.  I am saying that, when the dust settles on our primaries, he most likely will be our candidate.  Then, in a very real sense, HE will be the only one who can win for us.  But in response to your comment, if Hillary should win the primary, I will gladly fight with you and other Democrats to keep the Republicans out of the White House.  Will you do the same if Obama should win?

by DreamsOfABlueNation 2008-03-31 05:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Unity

if Hillary should win the primary, I will gladly fight with you and other Democrats to keep the Republicans out of the White House.  Will you do the same if Obama should win?

I hear crickets chirping.  

Damn shame.

by freedom78 2008-03-31 10:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Unity

Let's unite around Hillary then, because she is the only one who stands a chance to win the GE.

by RC01 2008-03-31 05:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Unity

If Clinton supporters could make that case with facts and evidence instead of screeching about Obama's nefarious conspiracy to invent the caucus system, and his fiendish manipulation of the MI and FL state parties into screwing themselves into the fix they're in now, and how his supporters are big meanies on the internets, and all the other (if I may be brutally frank) whining, with the underlying assumption that HC was somehow entitled to this nomination, that'd be swell.

Cause I don't agree. I look at the polls. I look at the states in play. I look at the candidates, and I think Obama has a much better shot against McCain in the GE. If Romney or Huckabee or Giuliani were the GOP nominee, I'd say Obama and Clinton were evenly matched. Against McCain, I think Obama's the better candidate (even with the Clintons campaigning for McCain as they have decided to do).

by BlueinColorado 2008-03-31 05:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Unity

Versus the corrupt Democratic rule if BO becomes the President.

No thanks.

by avrdream 2008-03-31 06:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Unity

I see you are choosing war, anti-choice judges, a broken health care system and trickle down economics over the chance to effectuate Clinton's policies--albeit through an Obama presidency.  I am sure that the wiser elements in our party will overrule your decision.

by DreamsOfABlueNation 2008-03-31 08:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama backers: Please, save your breath

Start your own party. PLEASE start your own party, so we can get rid of the DLC's pandering platform in our own. Get Lieberman on board, I'm sure he'd be glad to help.

by vcalzone 2008-03-31 05:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama backers: Please, save your breath

I get so sick of you whiners. Nobody will be begging you to come back, you'll all come back on your hands and knees when you realize what you did. Just like Nader's supporters. You'll have the blood of thousands of Iranians on your hands, and maybe even thousands of Israelis as well. If Israel still exists after McCain starts WWIII. If WE still exist. If our economy still runs after China backs its trade partner Iran.

by vcalzone 2008-03-31 05:20PM | 0 recs
Actually Holy Joe is BO's friend...

BO wouldn't even support Ned Lamont for fear of hurting Holy Joe's feelings (and don't tell me his wimpy e-mail at the very end of the campaign was "support" - he hid out and stayed out of CT for fear of having to make a committment to Ned....another "present" vote from BO - the chickenshit!)

by Shazone 2008-04-01 06:18AM | 0 recs
Clinton backers: Please, save your breath

You know, when McCain was about to get the nomination, TONS of rightwingers vowed they'd never vote for him. They hated him. Today, the last holdout, James Dobson, admitted he'd vote for McCain.

Do you know why that is? Because those Republicans actually have their priorities straight. Something that it seems some Democrats still can't get right.

Do you understand that Republicans are laughing so hard at you? They are SALIVATING at the prospect of you Clinton supporters deciding to be immature and divide the party. Do a quick glance around the room. They are delighted because they can already see that some people are ready to hand over the Presidency because they can't see the forest for the trees.

by vcalzone 2008-03-31 05:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton backers: Please, save your breath

See #3 above.

Your words have no effect on us.  We KNOW who the true Democrats in the room are and it ain't the BO, disenfranchsing-millions, supporters.

We KNOW where the blame lies.

by avrdream 2008-03-31 06:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton backers: Please, save your breath

Well, thank goodness we have you there to know what's best for the majority of Democrats everywhere.

by vcalzone 2008-03-31 07:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton backers: Please, save your breath

I just can't stand the whiny aspect of all this. Crying over the fact that your candidate (who my candidate, John Edwards, TOLD you from the beginning was too divisive to win) was indeed too divisive to win.

I notice that while you deeply resent being called racist, many of you see no problem with tossing around the word misogyny. Or freely admitting that you're voting for Hillary because she's a woman. Yet if someone says they're voting for Obama because he's black (which is a RARE sight indeed in these parts), that means they're playing the race card.

I can't tell you who to vote for, and it's not my damn job to persuade you to vote for the Democratic nominee. But I am NOT an Obamacrat, I never have been, I'm just a Democrat. I hope one day soon you all realize what that means.

by vcalzone 2008-03-31 07:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton backers: Please, save your breath

So you think we should just shut up and act like a Republican? Maybe that is one of the reasons I don't like Obama, his supporters act just like Bush supporters and I don't feel like putting up with that crap for 4 more years.

by RedstateLib 2008-04-01 12:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton backers: Please, save your breath

stfu and go back to whining at http://www.johnmccain.com

by denounceandreject 2008-04-01 12:21PM | 0 recs
Hallelujah!

You put this so very well. These folks don't know who they are messing with.

Great diary!

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-31 05:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Hallelujah!

These folks don't know who they are messing with.

Hee hee.

Grandiose much?

by BlueinColorado 2008-03-31 06:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Hallelujah!

"These folks don't know who they are messing with."

Actually, we do.
A handful of Rabid Hillabots who are under the delusion that they are leading some kind of grand crusade that will actually affect the outcome of the primary.

And to be honest, it's amusing - in a sad kind of way.

Why not just save yourself some grief and start campaigning for McCain NOW?

by jwolf 2008-03-31 08:02PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

"Others like myself are leaning strongly towards it."

What do you mean, "leaning"? You've already decided.  Honestly, can you think there's any way Obama could turn you around and have you vote for him in the general?  No way. He's already lost you, right?

some threat.

by mikeinsf 2008-03-31 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

The Usual Suspects usually post once or twice a week that they have, regretfully, at long last, after much painful reflection, decided that they cannot support Obama in the general.

Some of them have been doing it once or twice a week for two or three months.

History suggests that Obama will lose about as much of the self-identified Democratic vote as Kerry and Gore did (Perot skews those numbers for Clinton). Fortunately, Obama has much greater strength than they did among independents and soft Republicans, and the popular vote in 2004 (to say nothing of the Great Unmentionable of 2000*) suggests that will be more than enough.

*If I were a Florida Democrat, I'd be kinda quiet about what the national party owes me. Just sayin'.

by BlueinColorado 2008-03-31 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama backers: Please, save your breath

What's the difference between a corrupt Republican admin and a corrupt Democrat admin. Maybe it's time for some tough love for the DNC.

See:'The Gathering Storm': One Democrat's Analysis of Anti-Obama Feeling Among Democrats

My comment to the post at the link above:

Thank-you Northwest rain,
I agree, it is time to take a stand against the DNC. I too have been a straight ticket Dem voter since 1980. I have voted for every loser the Dem's have nominated. In essence I have disenfranchised myself since all my votes except for WJC have meant nothing but more Republicans. Now the WJC admin, the only winners for the Dems in almost 30yrs is being smeared and demonized by THE DEMS. What's the definition of insanity...doing the same thing over and over expecting different results ?

I suggest an e-mail campaign announcing our intention to leave the Dem party and register as an independent. This not an idle threat. If Obama wins the nomination I cannot vote for him. Voting for losersis bad enough, but voting for an complete fraud is the last straw for me.

by EdgeCurrent 2008-03-31 06:23PM | 0 recs
actually

a lot of Hillary supporters feel that Obama is not winning because he's qualified but because he's a fad.  

These people would simply like someone in the White House who they feel will know what he/she's doing when they run the country.  

Some of these people don't believe Obama really has what it takes.  Period.  

by searchforsolidarity 2008-03-31 06:43PM | 0 recs
Universal is the Republicans' little helper

We Hillary backers are prepared to sacrifice our short-term goal of winning the White House in order to intervene in what we consider to be the hijacking of our party Obama and many of his seemingly zealot followers have undertaken.

Yeah, go vote for McCain you failed Pied Piper Wantabee.

I see how you base your diaries on RNC talking points.

by Lefty Coaster 2008-03-31 06:43PM | 0 recs
Calling former president and Sen Clinton RACISTS

is not the way to win and govern.

Assuming that Obama retains 90% of the Hillary supporters and gets 33% of Independents along with 5% of the Republican vote, he will lose the election badly. He has lost most of his Republican and Independent support that he enjoyed in the last two months. He needs 70+% of the hispanic vote to make up for his poor showing with whites. The math is not there and he cannot win.

The party seems to have decided that it's better to lose this election than to anger the AA community. I believe if you care about the AA community as well as the country as a whole, you would run a candidate who has a good chance of winning. Obama is no longer that candidate.

Obama will need as close to 100% of Hillary's supporters as possible if he is to have any chance to win in November. The pre-Wright political season is ancient history. Obama has lost many Independents and Republican voters. The few he's managed to win back will be gone in November. All the Republicans have to do is play the Wright tapes or show the anti-semetic writings of the church. That genie can't be put back in the bottle. The Republicans have no incentive to destroy Obama now. They will pull out the big weapons at a time of their choosing.

Obama's short-term gain from playing the race card will be his undoing in the general election. He has split the party by blackmailing the SD's: either nominate me or lose your most loyal constituency for decades.

He has also strongly put out the narrative that if the super delegates vote for the candidate that they feel has the best chance of winning and governing effectively and that candidate is named Hillary that it amounts to over-turning the will of the people. Never mind the fact that the super delegates were created to use their best professional judgement. Ignore the small fact that Obama's people have fought hard to stop a revote in Michigan and Florida.

Given that he doesn't want to count the original vote and doesn't want a new vote, what other conclusion are the voters of Michigan and Florida to think? The would-be leader of the Democratic party has done all he can to disenfranchise voters from two of the largest states in the union because he fears a fight with Hillary there.

Having said all that, I will support Obama should he FAIRLY wins the nomination. But if Florida and Michigan do not get a recount it is hardly fair. I will forgive Obama for playing the race card long enough to vote for him IF we have a revote and IF the super delegates are allowed to vote their conscience without threats that Obama will take his ball and go home if its for a certain person named Hillary.

by mmorang 2008-03-31 06:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Calling former president and Sen Clinton RACI

If MI and FL is such an issue
1) Why didn't Hillary make an issue about this before she agreed to the rules?

2)Employ Harold Ickes who was on the rules committee in the DNC and drafted the penalty for MI and FL in the first place?
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080216 /D8URLU1O0.html

Those pesky facts.

by TMP 2008-04-01 02:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Calling former president and Sen Clinton RACI

If Obama doesn't like the rules as written regarding the super delegates independence to vote for whom they choose, then he should have said something before the race began.

The party in those states broke the rules, not the voters who came out in record numbers. There votes should count or have a revote.

Democracy Baby!

by mmorang 2008-04-05 10:17AM | 0 recs
Oh Uni
If you really do support Hillary, what does this do to advance that cause.
Attacking Obama for his church is a foolproof way to kiss the AA vote goodbye.
If you really are a democrat you must know we are in a really bad position, both ways, all ways. There must be a solution to MI and FL we can all get behind. Think back, I told you months ago I'd be happy with seating MI and FL with half delegates with Obama getting all non Hillary votes in MI. Would you really rather see a president McCain? That's an easy question for me to answer whether it be Obama, Hillary or some whacko Al Gore coup, NO!
No, I do not want 4 more years of Iraq.
No, I do not want war with Iran.
No, I do not want 4 more years of BS economic policies that banckrupt this country.
Just saying, that's where I come from.
by Drewid 2008-03-31 06:54PM | 0 recs
Blood on Your Hands

First of all, I find it hard to believe you were ever an Obama supporter.

Second, I will support whoever the democratic nominee is, McCain isn't even an option.

Thirdly, go ahead and place your vote for John McCain in the GE and try to use whatever means necessary to justify that vote.  But in the end, if McCain wins the GE the blood of every Military American killed or injured in those four years will be on your hands.

You should be so proud!!!

by hootie4170 2008-03-31 06:58PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

This is one of the most pathetic, self-serving, nasty diaries I have ever seen. I would love to see some Clinton supporters denounce this kind of stuff. Any thinking person reading this would have to think that whoever wrote this is a raving lunatic. Somebody please step in here and bring some sanity to this site!!!

by wasder 2008-03-31 07:00PM | 0 recs
Sorry Universal, but you crossesd a line today

I want to make this crystal clear right off the bat - you do not speak for me, and you do not speak for most Democrats.  The fact that you have limited support at MyDD, which compared to the United States is about the same as Barstow, CA compared to the Milky Way, doesn't give you the right to write as if you speak for so many...

because you speak for very few.

Look, I understand the frustration...Obama has ran the dirtiest campaign I have ever seen a Democrat run for President.  I used to think he was special - now I think he is a con artist.  I could go on and on.  However, I am a Democrat first and always, and even if I am cursing myself and yelling cuss words out loud in the voting booth come November, I'll be voting for Obama against McCain because to do otherwise would be the stupidest thing I could possibly do this year.

Yes, we need to stop the bullies - I'm all for standing up to them, I do stand up to them, and I keep thinking of writing a diary revolving around exactly that - but you are just as much a bully, based on your choice of words, by inciting a riot here.

You do not speak for me.  I will speak for myself.  I'll speak truth and facts to "their" intellectually dishonest talking points.  I'll remind "Bob Johnson" everyday of using the snark tag when he lies.  I'll do whatever I can to win debates with the power of my arguments and ideas, not with threats.

Finally, I need to say this...

In my opinion, a real Democrat would never write what you wrote.

by SluggoJD 2008-03-31 07:04PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers
I have seriously mixed emotions about this. Why? Well Obama's arrogance and the dirty race-baiting campaign he has run and his followers who have likened him to a messiah and have hounded, bullied and smeared anyone who has dared to criticize him prompting the one true progressive senator with cajones Sen. Feingold to ask his supporters to cool it. It is one thing to be partisan and quite another to be absolutist, even fascist in your views.
He relies on the goodwill of the Clinton supporters, the true Democrats, to vote for him if he is the nominee. To her credit even Senator Clinton has asked her supporters to vote Democratic whatever might be the outcome, more than I can say of BO and his wife who are running a campaign based on racial entitlement rather than merit of policies. So I like many other Clinton supporters am angry, but while I will not campaign against the Democratic nominee in the GE, I will not campaign for him or contribute to him either (assuming that it is he and not she) and will not go out of my way to ask my family members to vote.  I have taken a long and hard look and based on everything Obama's primary campaign is the same as W's in 2000 (including the SC parallel), no difference.
by tarheel74 2008-03-31 07:29PM | 0 recs
Have fun voting for McCain!

Seriously - if you prefer McCain - then go for it.

Say hi to Taylor for me!

by Elise 2008-03-31 07:34PM | 0 recs
This isn't a joke

is it?

Many could say the same about Clinton's campaign and that this is the crux of the issue.  You are all taking this far too personally!  You need to breathe and you need to realize that your fucked up "civil disobedience" is really going to cost us the Supreme Court and our Country's peace.

What price is worth pay because you got offended?  Really?  Nothing Clinton has done has even come close to this and I feel that her campaign has been far dirtier than Obama's.

I just am at a loss.

by Ellinorianne 2008-03-31 07:57PM | 0 recs
Re: This isn't a joke

If you are at a loss I would suggest a visit to the big orange, which to me looks a lot like the old redstate.  

There you will find person after person repeating all of the old anti-clinton right-wing stuff, yes, including Vince Foster bullshit, to try to get support for Obama and rile people up against Hillary.  

They will even sew seeds of racial discord, suggesting that the Clintons, long-time civil-rights advocates, are racists. Sad.

Frankly, I'm at a loss as to why you are at a loss...

by SoCalVet 2008-03-31 08:03PM | 0 recs
Re: This isn't a joke

Um, that's misguided supporters not the campaigns and just as I wouldn't hold this post against the Clinton campaign, you should not hold the outrageous things said at Daily Kos against Obama.

That's the perspective I'm talking about.

by Ellinorianne 2008-03-31 09:23PM | 0 recs
except Clinton DID play the race card.

and I am not just shucking and jiving when I say that.

by TMP 2008-04-01 02:31AM | 0 recs
I Want a Divorce

Universal, in case you haven't seen this, I thought I'd show it to you:

http://thehorizontalworld.blogspot.com/2 008/03/i-dont-get-all-fuss-about-party-n ot.html

"I don't get all the fuss about the party not uniting.  I want a divorce.  I don't want to cohab with Obama and his followers, I don't give a fuck who they are.  At this point, there is nothing in the Democratic party that I can't walk away from. And to be honest, all the whining about Republicans and the war, how they'll overturn Roe v Wade, choose evil Supreme Court Justices, blah blah blah, well, you shoulda thought about that before you started blowing Barry. If you're going to fuck outside the marriage with some two-bit poser, don't come crying to me about how we should stay together for the welfare of the children.

Obama has used the cultural biases of sexism, misogyny and the unromantic fact of knowing a candidate's history against Hillary Clinton while exploiting the cultural ambivalence of racial politics, the commercial appeal of being a hip biracial unknown, with the militancy of 60s establishment-blaming ideology.  

I'm sick of hearing about this Democrat leader, this senator, this governor endorsing Barry and suggesting that Hillary drop out. Go fuck yourselves! Who the fuck cares what you say? No one supporting Hillary is listening to you and when we can't help but hear you, it only makes us realize what dimwitted sexist idiots you are. FUCK YOU!"

It goes on from there. I'm not saying I care for everything she writes in it, but she sure has my anger down. I don't want unity or warm fuzzies or nice-nice with Obama or any of his supporters. I'm not interested in shaking hands much less holding hands. My Democratic Party is different than what Obama seems to be trying to shape. I will not help his version of a Democratic Party. I will work against it. Anyone who would troll me for this, go ahead, because I just don't care. You're more my opposition than my allies at this point. I won't be stopped, but your candidate will.

by Soitgoes 2008-03-31 08:19PM | 0 recs
Re: I Want a Divorce

Keep in mind that it wasn't until it was apparent Clinton lost that you started getting so angry. I remember a LOT of Clinton supporters saying he'd be a great VP candidate.

by vcalzone 2008-03-31 08:26PM | 0 recs
Re: I Want a Divorce

Oh, and if you don't vote for a Democrat, any bad things that occur are absolutely your fault, because you allowed it to happen. By voting for a Democrat, I indemnify myself. If you seriously can't vote for Obama, fine. But you don't get to ALSO pretend you are innocent of the consequences.

by vcalzone 2008-03-31 08:30PM | 0 recs
Re: I Want a Divorce
Great diary Universal. I recommended it. Obama and his ardent acolytes have made demeaning, degrading and engaging in the media gang rape of Hillary a major part of his "winning" ways. That, along with his malicious race baiting, will bite him in the ass. For the commenter who called Hillary's supporters children, read this post, by blogger Anglachel. She states in clearly. http://anglachelg.blogspot.com/2008/03/g athering-storm.html
by aroundtheblock 2008-03-31 09:07PM | 0 recs
Re: I Want a Divorce
Great diary Universal. I recommended it. Obama and his ardent acolytes have made demeaning, degrading and engaging in the media gang rape of Hillary a major part of his "winning" ways. That, along with his malicious race baiting, will bite him in the ass. For the commenter who called Hillary's supporters children, read this post, by blogger Anglachel. She states in clearly. http://anglachelg.blogspot.com/2008/03/g athering-storm.html
by aroundtheblock 2008-03-31 09:08PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please,

I agree.  I am a Clinton supporter who will vote for McCain if Obama wins the nom.  You said it beautifully, it is not about revenge.  It is about how I cannot with a clear conscious support a campaign that IS TRULY about bullying.

by findthesource 2008-03-31 08:32PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please,

So, you're going to vote for 100 years of war on Iraq?

Real smart move, Slick!

I remember the Texas primacaucus and I remember in the ensuing days the frustration and anger erupting about 'Hillary's Big Wins' and 'the momentum going to Hillary' etc etc.  Was that really only 4 weeks ago?  yup.  Now, there has been a sea change in the mainstream media: Slate has the Hillary Deathwatch sinking to 9.4% chance of her nomination, at the same time posting part two of a series about 'Hillary's Rev. Wright' - Huffpo has front and center a New York Post followup with the little Bosnian girl holding her poem from 12 years ago and gobsmacked by Hillary lying about sniper fire. Hillary's debt list is plastered on Politico, and pundits are describing her vows to stay as 'Huckabee-esque'.  There can be no doubt that the narrative has changed irrevocably.  It will be another two or three days before the massive credentials challenge story from Texas bubbles up to the MSM, but it will.

by Jeff Y 2008-03-31 08:36PM | 0 recs
Anybody who votes for McCain is a CHUMP

Do you hate the Democratic Party because you didn't get your way? Boooo Hooo!

by Lefty Coaster 2008-03-31 10:21PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

Bottom line is Clinton lost, and her supporters can't deal with it.  Fine.  Go jump in a lake.

by davey jones 2008-03-31 08:39PM | 0 recs
Is this the high-minded, reasonable discourse?

That wanted when you you boycotted Daily Kos?  I am honestly shocked by the level of vitriol and one-sidedness that is shown here.

Is Barack Obama perfect?   Of course not.  Is his campaign?  No.  But do you really think HRC has clean hands here?  When she agreed to and supported the "disenfranchisement" that she is railing against now (when she was possibly the one person who could have prevented it)?  Can you honestly look at what's happened in this campaign and say that all the blame falls on Obama?  It's absurd.

by OaktownDad 2008-03-31 08:40PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

Your childishness won't get you a president Hilary.  The rest of us can't make you vote.  That means we will have nobody to blame, but you who don't vote.  Once again, reality eludes a rabid Hilary supporter.

You'll lose anyway.  New voters and crossovers will replace you.  You will become irrelevant.  That is the proper position for petulant self deluded children in a grown up debate about the serious issues of our day.  

Good riddance.

by lockewasright 2008-03-31 08:44PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

I'm supposed to give a damn about troll ratings from people who've promised to make themselves irrelevant?!

I think I will just take at least 2 of the 150 or so new voters that I have registered with my own 2 hands  to the polling place with me in November.  In fact, I will make that 3 so that my cause will be mathematically BETTER OFF WITHOUT YOU.

Enjoy being irrelevant.

p.s.  My 2 year old's tantrums don't get him any results either.  He's begun to figure that out already and he's only 32 months old!

by lockewasright 2008-04-01 05:46AM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

How about this argument?

It isn't about you. Yes, we've all been royal assholes towards you have you have every right to be pissed off. None of us are very diplomatic. For most of us it's our first real presidential campaign and we are making lots of mistakes. We'd all rather be doing something else--we've been forced into politics by an overwhelming need to change the course this country is on.

People are dying, every day. It's not about you. A vote for McCain is a vote which leads to more children without parents. If you stay at home then that's a vote for more children without parents. You don't have to like us, you don't have to agree that Obama is the greatest thing since sliced bread. You just have to realize that it isn't about you.

by Brannon 2008-03-31 09:05PM | 0 recs
Too little, too late.

Or:  "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

You see, the behavior of the Obama campaign and its supporters that has so alienated  Hillary's supporters is PRECISELY the kind of behavior that leads to injustice and violence around the world.  An arrogant mob running all over the rules of basic decency.

by mnicholson0220 2008-03-31 09:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Too little, too late.

So Obama is the same as Bush. That's your point.

Awesome. Now we have to convince someone else to vote for Obama in order to cancel out your vote for the status quo. I hope you change your mind. You can still dislike me if you want. I honestly couldn't care less, I just want to stop the flow of flag-draped coffins from Iraq.

But by all means, keep your righteous indignation, that's gotta be worth a couple parent-less children, right???

by Brannon 2008-03-31 09:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Too little, too late.

The Obama campaign is representative of injustice and violence around the world?

This is the same campaign that wants to get us out of Iraq, right?

The one that wants the help Darfur?

Your point really doesn't make any sense at all.  You don't care for Obama.  Fine.  But now people you're equating him with the root causes of injustice and violence.  WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!  

by freedom78 2008-03-31 11:02PM | 0 recs
Nice. Expressed my views almost

completely.

by mnicholson0220 2008-03-31 09:13PM | 0 recs
King of the bundlers...

from Jeralyn at Talk Left:

... Newsweek reports his latest ad on foreign oil is misleading. The ad is running in PA among other places. He says he doesn't take money from foreign oil. The script:

   

I'm Barack Obama. I don't take money from oil companies or Washington lobbyists, and I won't let them block change anymore. They'll pay a penalty on windfall profits. We'll invest in alternative energy, create jobs and free ourselves from foreign oil.

Newsweek points out that for the last century, there's been a law preventing "corporations from giving money directly to any federal candidate" So no candidate takes money from oil companies. But, it's worse:

   

Obama has accepted more than $213,000 from individuals who work for companies in the oil and gas industry and their spouses.

   Two of Obama's bundlers are top executives at oil companies and are listed on his Web site as raising between $50,000 and $100,000 for the presidential hopeful.

Newsweek even has a handy little chart compiled from information available at OpenSecrets.org.

Oil Company Total Individual Contributions
ExxonMobil $30,850
Hess $5,200
Shell $9,900
Conoco Philips $4,300
Chevron $9,500
BP $6396
Total $66,146

After Hillary's campaign called Obama out on the ad, his campaign responded:

   

Obama's campaign quickly noted that he didn't take money from political action committees or lobbyists.

But, not only is that not what his ad says,

   

I don't take money from oil companies or Washington lobbyists,

Newsweek notes " the Obama campaign is trying to create a distinction without very much of a practical difference."

   

Political action committee funds are pooled contributions from a company's or an organization's individual employees or members; corporate lobbyists often have a big say as to where a PAC's donations go. But a PAC can give no more than $5,000 per candidate, per election. We're not sure how a $5,000 contribution from, say, Chevron's PAC would have more influence on a candidate than, for example, the $9,500 Obama has received from Chevron employees giving money individually.

If you are a Hillary supporter, you can help her by donating to meet the $3 million mark tonight. Obama's less than forthright ads shouldn't be the only ones Pennsylvanians hear.

Update: 10:30 pm MT: She's over $3 million now. That's $85,000.00 in the past hour alone. Thanks in part go to TL readers who contributed (see comments below), you helped push her over the top.

*


by jen 2008-03-31 09:14PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please,

I hope none of you backing this diary were making fun of Nader voters in 2000. Otherwise you would be the biggest hypocrites.

by Pravin 2008-03-31 09:21PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please,

I made fun of Nader voters in 2000

I suppose that makes me a hypocrite.  Funny thing is...I don't mind being called a hypocrite on that account at all !!

by SevenStrings 2008-04-01 10:50AM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

This is what kills me about Sen. Clinton. This lady has her stuff together. She has issues she obviously cares deeply about. She can be as focused as a laser about policy details I think far too many pols don't pay attention too. I hear that in person she is funny, charming, and warm. She's clearly smart as hell. And yet, I can't bring myself to support her for the nomination. It's partly policy. We hear alot about how the two candidates have near-identical positions, and mostly that's true, but I notice that where they do differ, it's more a matter of what I'll call "philosphy of implementation". Mandates, for one thing. Top-down planning by a small group of people who agree with each other, for another. The conviction that you are "right", and that those who disagree w/ you are either benighted simpletons, or bloodthirsty enemies. It has more to do with attitude, to be honest. I know Sen. Clinton is a warrior. I remember her husband's presidency, and all the filth that was slung at her, and her family. I wouldn't blame anyone who'd gone through that for being a little (or even a LOT) touchy, for deciding to abandon the Flight part their brain, and going full-on Fight as a survival strategy. I can even deal with her, ahem, creative interpretation of objective reality. Every election, people seem to rediscover the fact that gasp politicians lie! I just don't think I can make it through another 4 years of melodrama, and scorched-earth politics. I can't escape the feeling that a Clinton presidency would be, one way or the other, all about Clinton. Because, as sure as bears defecate in forests, the Republicans who are making nice with her right now will, upon her securing the nomination, morph back into the thuggish, slavering trogolodytes we all know them to be. They will attack her, Sen. Clinton will go nuclear, and it will be the 90's all over again (without the whole "prosperous economy" thing, of course...) And any solutions that manage to get applied will be more about political advantage, and Gotcha games, than about the actual problems they purport to address. I can't face it, I flat cannot. The next President, whoever that unlucky person turns out to be, is going to face problems so horrendous that I lack the courage to contemplate them all at one time. This President will need to draw upon the talent, fortitude, and goodwill of every single person in America if they are to have any hope of succeeding. I am no Hillary-Hater (I still have my "Hillary in 2008" T-shirt :) , but I do not beleive she has the personality to accomplish this. I beleive that Sen. Obama does. And, I know I keep harping on this, but there is a job in Washington where Sen. Clinton's character and talents are desperately needed : Senate Majority Leader. Sen. Obama is a nice guy. He's smart, eloquent, and a natural diplomat. If he doesn't have a hard-core policy warrior leading the charge in Congress, those crusty old theives are gonna block anything he tries to do. I can't think of anyone I'd rather have on my side in a knife-fight than Hillary Clinton (O yeah, she'd cut you...)

Hillary, I love you. But, barring some disastrous miracle, you can't win without harming the thing you love, our Nation. All the hot air and hurt feelings aside, I know you wouldn't do that. Stay in the race as long as you feel like you have a legitimate shot. If you win, I'll fight for you. If you lose, hold your head up, and get yourself ready for the fight that's coming. We'll all need you for that one.

by Kordo 2008-03-31 09:36PM | 0 recs
Your own candidate has said she will support

the nominee, so the whole lot of you haters can just follow her lead.  Or not.  Trust me, we will never miss a DLC-loving one of you.

by ReillyDiefenbach 2008-03-31 09:54PM | 0 recs
Again

Ive said it before and I'll say it again, there are some truly insane people on this board - and you are one of them.  I try not to get personal, but in this case, you deserve it.

How can you claim to be a democrat?  Seriously?  You sound like a child throwing a temper tantrum.

Im about as anti-Hillary as they come on the democrat side.  I think the dog whistle racist claims are somewhat justified.  I think her campaign has been ugly and has maligned dems in red states and the dem primary process which is counter to the 50 state strategy which actually has a chance of building some great grass roots now with the republican party faltering so badly.  Now is not the time to denigrate any dem or any state - even if we cant win that state we should make inroads wherever we can.  We have an historic opportunity here and to dismiss it for petty personal campaigning is terrible.  

I think she is a lying politician who can not be trusted.  I think if she wins the climate in the US will go from worse to 'worser'.  Hate will officially become a national past-time.

You thought the repubs were assholes in the 90's against WJC, wait for four years to yell at Hillary when things are going to be tougher (bad economy, energy crisis, unpopular wars, neo-cons still ranting and raving about invading all countries simultaneously, etc. etc. etc.).

That may be some irrational thinking to use in choosing a candidate, but honestly, I want the hate to stop.  I want it to just stop.

Can Hillary hack that hate machine, sure.  Will she give back as good as she gets, sure.  Will it be ugly and hateful with no real chance of national reconciliation in tough times, hell yes.  I am beginning to think this what some hard core Hillary backers want.  They want revenge.  They want to be the bully on the block for a change.  No high road there, just plain old retribution.  And if Hillary is not the nominee their chance for real nasty revenge goes out the window.

My anti-Hillary side pretty much starts with AUMF and goes from there.  Im not one to make fun of her lying, all politicians do.  Im not one to make fun of her experience, shes got it in spades.  Im not one to question her competence, intelligence, diligence, tolerance - she gets high marks there as well.  I just think on positions that are too important to me she is way off the mark.

But if you think for a second Id vote for McInsane over Hillary you are completely f'ing nuts.  I used to think I might long, long ago, but I was blinded and thankfully woke up.

I may prefer Obama and truly believe that barring an Obama collapse any way Hillary gets the dem nom will be suspect and borderline illegitimate, but Id still punch that ticket D in  the end.  McInsane is completely unhinged and getting worse by the day.

So have fun with your ball in your corner, sulking like a little baby, because thats what you sound like - a baby.

I know it hurts to say that and for you to hear it, but you need to be scolded like a child if you actually claim to be a dem.

In my lifetime Ive had one candidate I liked, WJC, the rest were second, third, fourth or fifth choices, yet never once have I failed to pull D, never.  Even when I felt I knew my D candidate was a complete tool and loser.

So call me an Obama cultist or an arrogant SOB, but I'll put my dem bona fides up against your whining cry baby temper tantrum tactics any day of the week.

Your candidate lost, grow up and deal.  We've all had to do it at one time or another.  We dont always get our way.  The sign of a true dem is to suck it up, move on and get energized to win back the whitehouse.

Go Dems 08!

by pattonbt 2008-04-01 12:07AM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

Coup in the making? Hijacking of the party? C'mon. McCain over Obama, when the guy is explicitly promising a continuation of Bush's policies?!?

Some of you are taking positions that Hillary herself would never, ever take, and in doing it in her name--as Hillary supporters--you're giving her a bad name. And as someone who has been a huge Hillary supporter from day 1, that's starting to piss me off.

Have you so quickly forgotten that this is the party she has been fighting for all of these years? If you truly support and have respect for Hillary's point of view, you'll stop trying to damage and seek retribution against the party that Hillary loves and has be pouring her heart and soul into.

If Hillary ultimately fails to get the nomination, you can bet she won't have this attitude. She'll instead get 100% behind the nominee and fight for the party. You just watch.

by HRC 2009 2008-04-01 12:28AM | 0 recs
I worked on a suicide hotline for years.

That was a long time ago, but I spent about six years doing it, even became a supervisor.  Had to take special college classes.  Had to train new people.  I'm not a trained psychologist, but I have had the experience of trying to talk people into not committing suicide.

It's sad, sometimes, because some people have such good reasons for it.  Like they're old and they went blind and their wife died and they're tired of the kidney dialysis.  Or some poor guy with AIDS, his family won't talk to him, his lover left him, he knows he's going to die, he just doesn't want to wait for things to get really bad.  

And then you get the people who say something the equivalent of, "You and the world don't deserve good people like me, so I'm going to hold my breath and turn blue until I die and it's all your fault."

A lot of those.

Back then, I hadn't had the experience of raising a child.  I was more patient than I could be now, I guess, because I've learned that too many things that hurt my personal feelings aren't the be-all and end-all, and I find it harder to summon the patience to explain it in a way that sounds sufficiently sympathetic.

This diary is like one of those last callers.  And I'll tell you why.

First of all, there is the too vague nature of your aggrievors.  Rather than blaming Obama and his staff, you blame Obama SUPPORTERS.

And at least as much as any of it, we want to make sure a clear message is sent out to the troll rate abusing, 'you're a racist!', 'I'm used to doing whatever I want on Daily Kos', 'we'll post pictures and tell people to harass you' embarrassments who call themselves Democrats and who support Obama. This is certainly not all Obama supporters, but to me and many others, it is far too high a percentage of Barack's backers.

Far too high a percentage, I guess.  But what is the pool you are making your statistical sample?  DailyKos?  MyDD?  Some other blogs?  People on the blogosphere?  People that troll-rated you?  People that said something sarcastic about Hillary that hurt your feelings?

My advice: GET A GRIP.

And this segues into the truly delusional part of this diary that I'm going to point to.  The idea that somehow your not voting for Obama is some kind of epochal event.

If Obama wins the nomination, which is a long way from now, the Clinton backers hold all the cards. We control whether or not he gets elected, or is at least competitive. We can turn the primary into the largest Pyrrhic victory since who knows when.

This part of the diatribe assumes a number of things.  First, it assumes that you can speak for other Hillary supporters who oppose Obama right now on the net.  And that you can speak for other Hillary supporters who oppose Obama in general.  And the truth is that none of you can do that.

I decided three years ago, for reasons of conscience that I have explained too many times, that I would never be able to vote for Hillary.  My reasons were personal and moral, and I never considered my withholding my vote to be a severe punishment of Hillary Clinton or the others who supported and endorsed this war.  It was a feeling that I would not soil myself or my honor by dirtying my hands in such a way.

Whether you disagree with that or not (I assume you disagree), I have never thought that my one vote was so great that I could punish Hillary Clinton by withholding it.  Other people have taken it farther by refusing to pay taxes or by refusing to be stationed in Iraq.  This was my way of saying, I will not be part of your fucking war.

But I read this, and all I can see is, "My feelings are so hurt because of things bad people on the Internet said that I'm going to teach them a lesson by not voting for Obama.  Boy will they be sorry."

If you don't want to vote for Obama, FINE!  Be my guest!  I would never begrudge you that.  I feel the same way about your candidate and always have, even before she announced.  And she's not the only one I felt that way about.  

But, please, for your own sake, for the sake of everybody else's dignity on this forum, try to get down from this delusional blue cloud that you are hanging out on and rejoin reality.  You're not voting for Obama.  Okay, fine, we got that.  But don't vent your anger at everybody else as if it's all our fault for making you do something that you don't seem to want to do.  

Stop holding your breath.  Stop turning blue.  Stop blaming it on us.  Stop addressing your complaints about the campaign in such an incredibly juvenile, petty, personal manner.  Grow up.  Nobody else really gives a shit if you vote for Obama or not.  If we have to care, then you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

by Dumbo 2008-04-01 12:33AM | 0 recs
Re: I worked on a suicide hotline for years.

How'd "Get a grip!" and "Grow up!" work out on your suicide hotline?

by oh puhleeze 2008-04-01 11:49AM | 0 recs
Re: I worked on a suicide hotline for years.

You don't think we ever said that to people?

We used to get regulars, people that would call daily, even wait for shifts to change so they could speak to somebody else, tell the same story to.  Their psychiatrists would tell them, "If you feel really distressed or suicidal, all the hotline number."  And then they would use us as a sort of adjunct daily therapy session, which was not really the intended purpose of the hotline.  So, we knew some of these people quite well, often by some nickname, and answerers could tell each other when so-and-so was acting up.  

And sometimes we would be quite brusque with them, especially if we knew them well or if we needed to clear a line.

I didn't offer the above post as a sympathetic advice or comfort.  Self-pity over your favorite campaign's lagging doesn't seem to be well served by a hostile and immature diary addressed directly at "Obama backers."  We're not your problem.

by Dumbo 2008-04-01 03:23PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update*

Thanks for thinking of yourself before your country!

While you're waiting those four years, might you have some children or grandchildren you'ld be willing to send to Iraq?  Or even yourself perhaps?    

by Rick in Eugene 2008-04-01 12:44AM | 0 recs
Arrogant Lying Imbiciles like these aren't Dems

They are only Obama haters

by Lefty Coaster 2008-04-01 05:03AM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

How condescending is this "they mugged John Lewis" crap? John Lewis stood up to Bull Connor and the fire hoses. He can handle Obama's campaign.

Of course, recognizing that means they would have to recognize that he switched out of conviction, not out of being coerced...

by Gimmeliberty 2008-04-01 04:27AM | 0 recs
Reality Check

I read about civil disobedience from supporters on both sides of the campaign.

I won't vote for Obama if she wins.

I won't vote for Clinton if she wins.

Here's the reality: 95 percent of Americans don't read political blogs.  So threats on either side from the blogosphere are iffy at best, laughable at worst.

The reality is that this is little more than a referendum on the last eight years.  If either nominee screws it up, they have themselves to blame.

I just want an end to eight years of darkness.  Anybody who wants something different is a flaming idiot with no conscience.

by LtWorf 2008-04-01 05:02AM | 0 recs
I think it's fair...

... to say that Obama supporters have caused a fair amount of the rift in the blogosphere.

Full disclosure - I am an Obama supporter.

But I have gone out of my way to visit this site and others like it to see what Hillary supporters have been saying.

There has been some uncalled for language on both sides, in my opinion. There has been some sketchy behaviour by both campaigns, and both campaigns have made mistakes and excercised poor judgement at times. And we in the blogosphere tend to amplify those mistakes through constant discussion and analysis - combine that with high passions and dedicated people and you get quite a toxic mix sometimes.

If you decide to vote for John McCain rather than Barack Obama, that is obviously your decision to make. But please, make that decision based on the battle of John McCain vs Barack Obama - NOT on the basis of your opinion of Barack Obama's supporters (although I think we compare quite favourably to McCain's supporters :lol: ).

You raise points that I feel are worth raising and worth considering, and if, at the end of the day, you feel you can't support Obama, so be it. I'd encourage you to stay home or, better, go to the polling place and refuse your vote (a none-of-the-above option).

But I hope the day is not long coming when we can all stand together as Democrats against McCain and his destructive, regressive policies, just as we have stood together against Bush and his policies.

by DynamicUno 2008-04-01 05:28AM | 0 recs
by nogo war 2008-04-01 05:30AM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

Wow---this is one of the best descriptions of the underlying problems in Clinton's raison d'etre:

"Instead, she insists that the process continue, on the grounds that the people are sovereign and must be allowed to have their say. Then, switching gears, she also argues that once the people have had their say, the superdelegates have the right to overturn the people's verdict in her favor."

by wasder 2008-04-01 08:07AM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please,

You do what you need to you... but when Clinton won the primary in 92, I supported him.  I was an anyone but Clinton guy in the primary.  Heck in 96 I voted in the primary for him (even though the election clerk tried to persuade me to take a Republican ballot - saying that the democratic race was meaningless.... what do you mean, Clinton is running against Lyndon LaRouche... Plus I wanted good turnout, and wanted to support my party.

I didn't like Bill Clinton's governing or electoral philosophy, but I liked it better than the Republicans.  I found him way more objectionable than either of Obama or Hillary.

I have never been a Naderite, but it is annoying that the liberal wing of the party is expected to get in line behind, and berated if they don't And by the way, Obama is not part of that wing, I wish he was.  Edwards represented that wing this cycle and we saw that turned out.  But most of the Edwards people didn't jump to the Greens or anyone else, but picked a side amongst the remaining dems.  But it is totally fine for the DLC wing to jump ship if they don't get their way.

Well maybe that will work, but what is the incentive for that other wing of the party to unite when your candidates win, if every time we win (which rarely happens) the other side jumps ship.  Especially when it is over another centrist.  Imagine if Edwards had won, I remember all the ambulance chaser attacks on this site.

by labor nrrd 2008-04-01 05:39AM | 0 recs
I've never seen grapes this sour.

by Bob Johnson 2008-04-01 06:11AM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save

What a dog whistle title.  Typical from this diarist - say something sure to cause an argument, whine about the argument that results.

by rfahey22 2008-04-01 06:22AM | 0 recs
April Fools!

Good one! It takes a rare Lewis Carroll skill to write this sort of nonsense.

by bernardpliers 2008-04-01 06:28AM | 0 recs
As a committed Democrat

this makes me very sad. I hope that many here come to understand that this has been a bloody primary because we are selecting the next POTUS among ourselves, the Democrats.  Yes, it's exposing our fault lines, but being willing to rally around whichever candidate wins the nomination is important.

Not because we're Democrats, but because we're Americans.  And if we fail to rally together, for whatever PERSONAL reasons, we will have personally doomed our soldiers to 100 years in Iraq.

by steampunkx 2008-04-01 07:06AM | 0 recs
Re: As a committed Democrat

This is offensive:  "personally doomed our soldiers."  What a cheap shot, especially since Obama's own advisors have admitted that he really won't do what he is now saying he will do with regard to getting the troops out.  Everybody knows it will be about the same no matter who is elected.  

Let me guess:  you're an Obama supporter?

by PlainWords 2008-04-01 10:50AM | 0 recs
Re: As a committed Democrat

What a sad and partisan response.

Good luck.

by steampunkx 2008-04-02 09:30AM | 0 recs
Linky for you

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/02 /clinton-obama-surrogates_n_94713.html

Looks like both campaigns now want the flexibility to be Commander in Chief.  Go figure, it's in the job description.

by steampunkx 2008-04-03 05:01AM | 0 recs
SUSA has McCain 510, Obama 28 now

excellent diary; but Obama people do not care; they think that win will justify their methods. I hope PA, WV & KY will tell them different story.

by engels 2008-04-01 08:31AM | 0 recs
Re: To the Obama backers:

I'm tempted to say you should pay attention to Universal because he's on to something when he talks about the trashing of HRC and the race-baiting by the Obama team.  But I think it's too late.  I don't think anything you can do now will bring back a lot of the folks you've offended.

For those of you who are trying to distance Obama from what the DNC has done to Florida and Michigan, it's too late for that also.  Brazile and Dean, whatever they may say to the contrary, have made the mess that has put Obama on top, and all three and the Dem party will have to pay for it.  Anyone who doesn't know how phony they have all been should read this:  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wayne-barr ett/could-the-republicans-pic_b_94158.ht ml

Bottom line:  McCain will be President.  You did it to yourselves.  Am I sorry?  Sure.  But not sorry enough to vote for Obama.

by PlainWords 2008-04-01 10:33AM | 0 recs
Oh, this thread is from yesterday

You don't need to keep up the April Fool's joke thing.  It's wearing thin.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-01 12:40PM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

People who post stuff like this are the reason why this country is sooooo divided.  Its all about what I want and who cares about others.  If I can't have Hillary as my president than I'll be damned and act like a 2 year old.

Grow up!  Quite whining...Do you act like this at your job?  In your relationships?  In your parenting?

I understand you want and need to vent, but try to do it in such a way that doesn't bring about divisiveness, animosity, hatred, etc.  We have enough of this in our world today and we need to start healing if we are going to move this country forward for the betterment of all middle and lower class Americans.

As Bill Clinton would say "Chill Out".

by gabbie 2008-04-01 10:58AM | 0 recs
Re: *NEW UPDATE!!!* -- Save it, Obama backers

"Sigh As sad as these comments are, thanks for helping to make the point, guys. :("

Oh... even a sad frowny face.  Must break your heart that you had to arrive at the same conclusion today that you've been arriving at for months.

by mikeinsf 2008-04-01 11:20AM | 0 recs
Re: *NEW UPDATE!!!* -- Save it, Obama backers

The minute Hillary concedes, I'm making a beeline to the Universal diaries. Should be a spectacle.

by mikeinsf 2008-04-01 11:27AM | 0 recs
Re: *NEW UPDATE!!!* -- Save it, Obama backers

Quit threatening me...and do it already.  I could really give a shit less.

by hootie4170 2008-04-01 11:37AM | 0 recs
Re: *Update* -- Obama backers: Please, save your b

Remember most of us Hillary supporters are "old women" we don't have to worry about things like birth control or reproductive rights. Were also "evil lesbians" so we don't have children. Those of us who don't fall into those two categories are illiterate trailer trash males and we don't care about anything except "keeping the black man down". See we are all from that wing of the democratic party you know that wing that has helped elect all those racist, like the Clintons, democrats since 1960!

by RedstateLib 2008-04-01 11:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

I think what is being said here is incredibly disingenuous...  especially the second update...

Sorry, but the posting of the comment by Travis Stark regarding the diarist's troll-ratings and pointing to it derisively as somehow mean is hypocritical when the diarist went through and troll rated every comment he/she did not agree with.... That doesn't make it a mean statement... it makes it true.

Newsflash:  Just because there is an opinion contrary to your own does not strip either your opinion or the other of validity.  It just means there are two contrary opinions.

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-01 12:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Supporters: Save your breath

No point in confronting Universal with logic.  

by interestedbystander 2008-04-01 12:57PM | 0 recs
There she blows ...

Universal is a Moby - just ignore him.

(though it would be more fun if he was better at it - a good Moby can take weeks to uncover)

by interestedbystander 2008-04-01 12:55PM | 0 recs
Re: *NEW UPDATE!!!* -- Save it, Obama backers

I'm a Dem and will vote that way. But that's just me.

by kitebro 2008-04-01 12:59PM | 0 recs
This diarist is the worst

kind of coward.

Hiding behind a false air of grievance, feigning outrage from behind the smokescreen of legitimate Hillary supporters, willing to lie, twist, contort the truth to any extent to whip up a divisive hysteria, and doing all this with no semblance of a conscience is mindful of republican dirty tricks at their worst.

It might even be Rovian, were it not for the lack of sophistication.

Fortunately the target of this slime is better than this. Partisanship aside, the motivations of this venomous contributor must be transparent to anyone with half a brain. Which is more than can be said for the denizens of his/her obvious rightwing origins. He/she is strongly encouraged to crawl back to whatever rock they came from.

by Sumo Vita 2008-04-01 01:06PM | 0 recs

Diaries

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