This IS Ugly! (Updated Again)

Today's New York Times has a little commentary by Paul Krugman. I will let Mr. Krugman speak for himself as his few words say more than anything I could offer. But please pay attention to the photos below. They show just exactly how far the Obama campaign is willing to go to discredit Hillary Clinton.

The Obama campaign sends out an ugly mailer. Sorry, but this is just destructive -- like the Obama plan, the Clinton plan offers subsidies to lower-income families. And BO himself has conceded that he might have to penalize people who don't buy insurance until they need care. So this is just poisoning the well for health care reform. The politics of hope, indeed.

Perhaps y'all might remember this Republican talking point. You know, the one financed by the Health Care Industry and the Republicans.

Can you say Harry and Louise?

Update [2008-2-1 15:20:29 by Undies Sided]: Ezra Klein weighs in on this:
An "automatic sign-up," a la Medicare, would still force Americans into health care they may not want to pay for, or may feel overburdened by. Some seniors feel overburdened by Medicare's cost-sharing now. Meanwhile, Obama not only has a mandate for kids in his own health care plan -- what if the parents can't pay, one might ask? -- but he said, in last night's debate, "If people are gaming the system, there are ways we can address that. By, for example, making them pay some of the back premiums for not having gotten it in the first place." That, of course, is exactly what a mandate does. Gaming the system, in this context, means not purchasing health care. And Obama is now threatening to force them to pay back premiums. That's a harsher penalty than anything Clinton has proposed.
Did you get that? a harsher penalty than anything Clinton has proposed
In the end, his plan is not universal, does not attempt to be, and is probably less generous in its affordability provisions than Clinton's. And even so, I wouldn't really care, as it's still a pretty good plan, except that he's decided to respond to the inadequacies of his own policy by fear-mongering against not only better policy, but the type of policy he's probably going to have to eventually adopt. It's very, very short-sighted.
Thanks Ezra. They don't call some people experts for nothing.

Update [2008-2-1 23:30:17 by Undies Sided]: Alegre has a wonderful diary about this on Daily Kos. Check it out:




Tags: Barack Obama, Distortions, Hillary Clinton. Universal Healthcare, lies (all tags)



Re: This IS Ugly!

This is part of why I chose Clinton over Obama.

by Vox Populi 2008-02-01 07:56AM | 0 recs
Me, too!

Hillary reaffirms our Democratic values by vowing to fight for universal health care. This ad, OTOH, makes me wonder if Obama will fight for universal health care.

by atdleft 2008-02-01 08:07AM | 0 recs
Hillary says we have to wait until

the END of her SECOND term for her plan to be fully implemented. Sounds like a promise she has no real intention of keeping.

by highgrade 2008-02-01 08:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary says we have to wait until

That is a blatant lie.  

by georgep 2008-02-01 08:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary says we have to wait until

Before the end of her second term?  Uh-huh...  So if she's not re-elected it will be the Republican's faults again.  Hopefully we'll be out of Iraq by then too.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-02-01 10:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary says we have to wait until

You have to admit that within eight years is better than Obama's never.

by souvarine 2008-02-01 11:02AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary says we have to wait until

I think it is odd to make a campaign promise for an outcome which stretches beyond her first term.  I can't think of a historical example but could be wrong.  No biggie.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-02-01 01:55PM | 0 recs
Re: HRC does not reaffirm any Democratic values

Here Here!!!  HB 676

by kentuckydave 2008-02-01 10:28AM | 0 recs
mandated care does not equal universal health care

It bothers me to hear mandated health care used synonymously with universal care.  Single payer health care is the only policy that universally provides health insurance.

Both Obama's and Clinton's plans are a stepping stone to that ultimate goal.

It's ridiculous that this one policy debate has progressives snarling and gnashing their teeth at one another.

(-And I might add, I feel like I'm in the twilight zone when I hear about die hard liberals jumping into the DLC candidate's camp.)

by Damien in Texas 2008-02-01 11:58AM | 0 recs
mandated care can equal universal health care

Wrong. Mandates are a method of achieving universal health coverage. Single-payer is the easiest (and probably the best) way to attain it, but not the only way.

Clinton's plan uses mandates to achieve universal coverage. Obama's plan doesn't even attempt to be universal.

by LakersFan 2008-02-01 02:51PM | 0 recs
Re: mandated care can equal universal health care

Yeah. I know what mandated coverage is.

The idea is that the more people that pay into the system the lower the costs will be to cover each.  In a mostly privatized system though, it remains to be seen whether the savings would passed on to the consumer.

I think it's matter of semantics whether you consider mandated care to be "universal care."

The real question for me is which plan provides more coverage. The key word there is provides.  We're not providing additional coverage if we're just requiring people to go out and get their own coverage.  As we know from docs like Sicko and other news stories, undercoverage is just as much a problem as the uninsured.  So how is just mandating people acquire insurance going to address that?

I don't know how to get this through to you any clearer.  The ultimate goal is a single payer system of universal healthcare.  Both Clinton's and Obama's plans get us one step closer to that by providing a government plan that competes with the private insurers.

A vote for either of our candidates is a vote for a policy that will lead to true universal care.

by Damien in Texas 2008-02-02 07:10AM | 0 recs
Re: mandated care can equal universal health care

The mandate is only one of the means to control costs. But it's an important piece of the puzzle.

Don't preach to me about what you know from movies like Sicko. My spouse has a chronic disease and although we have great insurance we still have thousands of dollars of co-pays. And even though we cannot afford these medical expenses at all, it is still more important to get coverage to the uninsured. Everyone needs health coverage -- because it's the right thing to do, and because it ends up saving money for everyone in the long run.

by LakersFan 2008-02-02 01:25PM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

Ezra Klein  has a great post on why this is important.

by MOBlue 2008-02-01 10:11AM | 0 recs
Here Is Some More Info You Might Not Have

The Daily Iowan, the newspaper reference in Obama's mailer is the student newspaper of the University of Iowa in Iowa City.

He didn't even use a regular news outlet for his mailer.

by MOBlue 2008-02-01 11:08AM | 0 recs
Re: Here Is Some More Info You Might Not Have

You're kidding, the Daily Iowa as your endorser for health care, you might as well get the National Enquirer.

What a joke!

by CVDem 2008-02-01 04:18PM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

This just proves that we definitely won't get universal care if Obama wins the election. The GOP will use his own words against him.

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-01 07:56AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

Do you think we would get it with Hillary?  She had a perfect window of opportunity to pass it in 1993-1994 and she gave up.  

by Toddwell 2008-02-01 08:09AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

Well then if you think Hillary can't get it then Obama definitely WILL NOT get it. He might as well take it out of his platform if he's going to run these Republican ads.

Obama is trailing in the polls apparently. This is what he does when he's losing. He gets desperate for Republicans to vote for him. Too bad many of the primaries are closed.

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-01 08:14AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

What a feeble excuse for this travesty. You know it and I know it.

by ottovbvs 2008-02-01 08:31AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

This is pretty disgusting, Ben Smith of the Politicio had a write up on it yesterday. 108/More_negative_mail.html

Obama said, "Hilliary will do and say anything to win".  Nope, I think Obama will do and say anything to win.

by lonnette33 2008-02-01 08:03AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

"Our Democratic party is being hijacked by Obama. Move On and Kennedy are apparently complicit."

That you don't see the absurdity implicit in such a statement is more of a statement on you than it is on Obama, Kennedy or Move On.

by dmc2 2008-02-01 09:32AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

Were he to win, I would vote for Obama in November, but he is actually pretty unlikeable once you take a closer look.   Most of the rah-rah people just see the surface, have no way to look closer.  Once you do, you see amazing junk like this, which is obviously the handywork of the most craptacular slimeball to ever work for Democrats against fellow Democrats, Robert Gibbs - he of the trashy anti-Dean morph into Osama Bin Ladin ads.    Unforgiveable and forever a major stain on Obama's candidacy that THAT jerk is Obama's spokesman.

by georgep 2008-02-01 08:04AM | 0 recs

You may be right, George. This truly undercuts Obama's rhetoric of "hope" and "change". What hope do we find in not working to ensure EVERYONE has quality, affordable health care? What change is this from the same ol' attack politics of the past? Robert Gibbs' dirty work would certainly come back to haunt Obama if he were our nominee.

by atdleft 2008-02-01 08:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Unfortunately...

He is all about teh changiness, isn't he?

by WMCB 2008-02-01 08:23AM | 0 recs

by lonnette33 2008-02-01 08:09AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

krugman called obama on this before, and obama went nuts- even created a anti-krugman section of his website.

obama is attacking universal health care from the right, with the same old scare tactics the republicans used. it's false as well- premium costs are capped at a fixed proportion of income, so the scenario obama is laying out to scare people will never happen.

hillary said last night that health care is a core democratic value. it's sad to see obama abandoning the poition of the party for political advantage, but that's one of the reasons i don't support him.

by campskunk 2008-02-01 08:10AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

Obama once again demonstrates his willingness to crush such core values--and all of us who insist that indeed they are core values--under the wheels of his unity bus.  He did it with Social Security, with his woeful mis-characterization of the Reagan legacy, and now this.  I'm sure I'm missing other examples, but I'm tired.  Perhaps others can help.

Interesting that just a week ago, Obama's man Gibbs said that BO's victory in S. Carolina marked "a rejection of the politics of the past."  What is left to think when the campaign of hopeandchange re-runs virtually the same smear job that deep-sixed the nation's last effort at real health care reform?  So sad.  

by lori j 2008-02-01 08:27PM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

Jesus.  This is a complete Rove hit job on the very idea of UHC.

by WMCB 2008-02-01 08:23AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!
UHC is the most expensive option. The real reason why UHC will never get through is becasue it's too expensive.
In fact, Barack's plan probably is slightly more bulletproof than CLinton's because it distributes cost among a larger base of people, but still allows for choice.
by xodus1914 2008-02-01 08:28AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

The problem is that it DOES'T distribute costs across a wider basis than Hillary's. If you can afford insurance but decide not to buy it then you don't have to with Obama's. Now I would be fine with Obama's plan if he told hospitals that they could deny treatment to people if they don't have insurance therefore forcing them in a backhanded way to get it but he doesn't it. His plan does nothing to promote expanding the consumer base while actually increasing costs to the people who do have it.

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-01 08:33AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

So you are opposed to UHC. Just so we know where the Obama camp stands.

by ottovbvs 2008-02-01 08:33AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

Bullshit.  The best way to keep costs down is to spread the pool to everyone.  Medicare or SS would NOT be viable if anyone could opt out if they chose.  Liberal (ie. not wingnut) health insurance experts agree, as well as those with half a brain.

Which is why Obama was reduced to quoting a freaking college newspaper as the "experts" endorsing his plan.

by WMCB 2008-02-01 08:34AM | 0 recs
You must be kidding...

...He quoted a college newspaper?!?

Boy, I'd put a college newspaper's influence right there along with the influence of the spotted own society.

by Andre Walker 2008-02-01 08:39AM | 0 recs
Re: You must be kidding...

Yes, in one of his healthcare plan mailers, he quoted a small college newspaper as touting his plan (without revealing who this impressive-sounding name actually was, of course.)  LOL!

by WMCB 2008-02-01 09:01AM | 0 recs
Re: you CANnot pool everyone

ge0rge, you are clueless.   Hillary's plan, as did Edwards, expands the Medicaid system to include more people, and is not going to penalize the poor.

by WMCB 2008-02-01 04:32PM | 0 recs
This is a mail piece...

...That can easily be disproved with just a scant bit of research.

It's tacky and it is inaccurate.

If this is what the politics of hope looks like, then I don't want to know what the politics of cynicism is.

by Andre Walker 2008-02-01 08:28AM | 0 recs
Re: This is a mail piece...


by WMCB 2008-02-01 09:02AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

Well Hillary Clinton destroyed Obama on the healthcare issue last night. If healthcare is your top issue I don't understand how you can pick Obama.

by Christopher Lib 2008-02-01 08:28AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS the truth.

Is there anything untruthful about this flyer?

Mass. and Ca. and Canada all have tried mandates and they fail.

Wake up. HRC's mandates have zero chance of getting passed.
In canada they tried it for awhile , and then gave up cus it cost the govt more to try to track down violators than it was worth.

Single payer is the only way to go but mandates are a disaster.
Why does HRC not promise it til her second term>

Are any of you folks actually in the healthcare industry? Go talk to the Ca. Nurses Union about mandates in the Ca. plan..they are totally opposed. They are in the process and saw how they doomed the chances of anything getting done.

The hysteria on here is so over the top, it is ridiculous.

by hawkjt 2008-02-01 08:39AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS the truth.

yes, they have supported single payer..but in lieu of that..they have recognized the folly in mandates.

WE all agree single payer is the way to go.
But, Dennis Kucinich is the only candidate that was willing to support it.

Short of single payer, we have to look at the best fallback plan that can get passed.
Mandates are a plan killer.

by hawkjt 2008-02-01 08:55AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS the truth.

It's not ridiculous. A single payer system is undoubtedly the best option but as anyone with ten cents worth of understanding of political reality knows it is just not politically viable. So you can have a halfway house with or without mandates. Unfortunately as Paul Krugman has pointed out endlessly without mandates it isn't going to work. And indeed the only system currently in operation in MA has mandates because otherwise it would not work. You're introduction of the whole single payer argument is a transparent attempt to muddy the water in defending an indefensible position. Stalinism is not dead. It's alive and well in Obamaland.        

by ottovbvs 2008-02-01 09:18AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS the truth.

What ARE you talking about? Canada tried mandates and failed? Canadians pay about $60 a month -if they can afford it - and to say their system is a failure is crazy.

by georgiast 2008-02-01 10:56AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS the truth.

I agree. As an American who has been living in Canada for years now I can tell you that their healthcare system is not a failure.

They all pay around $50 to $60 a month. If you can't pay you are still covered but the larger pool can absorb it. Plus, there are constant "verifications" of people's status done by province.

Don't start talking about Canada's system unless you know what you are talking about. My partner works for the Ministry of Health for our prov, involved in IT and the verification process, among other things.

by americanincanada 2008-02-01 12:27PM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

Diaries like this show just how desperate the HillBilly smear machine is getting.  The same six or seven hatemongers inevitably show up in every single Obama character assassination diary on this site.  It's revolting.  You people have definitely convinced me not to vote for her in November, either.

by NJIndependent 2008-02-01 08:40AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

I agree. There really is nothing wrong with this mailer. Is anything in it untrue? No. Is it a policy-driven critique? Yes.

The Rodhamites like to talk about the "15 million" that will be left uninsured under Obama's plan. What they don't say is that the estimate has no factual basis whatsoever. In fact, the person who came up with that figure, I think it is a contributor to the New Republic, admitting that it was an estimate with no real factual support.

The real ugliness comes from all these haters who chime in on every Obama hitpiece. An echo chamber at its finest.

Question for Clinton people: Is and the CA SEIU now on your hit list?  You had no problem slamming Kennedy for supporting Obama.

by Lawdawg 2008-02-01 08:52AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

In reality it is the Obama echo chamber that yells RACISM or CODED RACISM every time someone says a word about the "messiah," has been extremely ugly and plays fast and loose with the truth way, way too often.   Talk about "haters."   To defend this right-wing-talking-point Rove-style "Harry and Louise" remake is incredible.  Obama and Robert Gibbs, a great match.   (btw. did you defend Robert Gibbs' Dean/Bin-Ladin morph ad as "factually correct," too?)

by georgep 2008-02-01 08:59AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

It's fanatics like lawdawg who can't see the wood for the trees who are going to be cause of us losing the november election. They're for UHC until their candidate is against it and then they are against it. I have no problem with them supporting their candidate but all this justification for the unjustifiable shows just how hollow they and their candidate really are.  

by ottovbvs 2008-02-01 09:12AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

No problem with SEIU here, nor with the Betrayus ad.

I did quit moveon today, though.

by Rooktoven 2008-02-01 01:16PM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

You were never going to vote for her. And I'm not a hillbilly although your use of the term indicates the contempt in which you hold many mainstream democrats. Very typical of the Obamists generally I'd say.

by ottovbvs 2008-02-01 09:20AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

Speaking of 'single payer,' have you checked out that youtube ad Clinton has where she reveals Obama contradicting himself?  I don't know if that is an actual TV commercial, or if it is just youtube, but I thought it was funny.

The 'single payer' ad indicates what I always feared:  Obama flip-flops a bit too much for me. He is a little too loose with the lips.  Is that how he got in trouble last summer angering the President of Pakistan with over-agressive words about invading Pakistan whether President gives permission or not?  I feel he honestly means well, but upon rambling and rambling he accidentally says something that is potentially controversial (e.g. his comments about Reagan's administration!)

In short, I feel Clinton is more professional, careful, articulate, etc.  It is Clinton for me, all the way, for having such Presidential demeanor!

by findthesource 2008-02-01 09:08AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

Why is anyone surprised by how nasty Obama is? This is George W. Bush 2.0 with a brain, though just as insecure. Obama the compassionate, does that ring a bell? Oh and Obama can do transcendence too: Now you see universal health care, now you don't. He's a great sleight of hand with that race card too. Oh and he's a uniter not a divider. Got that? If there is a Democratic party by the time Obama has finished compromising parts of it away, I'll eat my shoe. What George Bush has done for the Republican party, Obama will do in shovels for the Democratic Party. Again like George Bush's candidacy, the people who don't buy into Obama's dream are told what awful, dreadful people we are, we have to stand to attention because history not democracy is being made. We must all be Obama handmaidens ready to catch those pearls of wisdom that fall from his angelic lips. Obama "the blessed child" as Maureen Dowd noted. Oh well, I guess if the American empire must decline and we might as well go out listening to the divine words of Obama. Who can say no to elegant decline. Its all so irresistible.

by superetendar 2008-02-01 09:27AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

Couldn't agree with you more. The whole Obama thing is depressing, lets just hope that the MSNBC dream factory can be resisted by enough  voters come Super Tuesday.

by superetendar 2008-02-01 10:17AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

Just what we need another Boy King who can do no wrong.

by MOBlue 2008-02-02 05:03AM | 0 recs
and they wonder why some of us think

Obama would sell out progressive ideals.

by desmoinesdem 2008-02-01 10:08AM | 0 recs
Re: and they wonder why some of us think

Keep smoking the hopium.  He has done VERY LITTLE that is actually progressive in his career, unless it was to his distinct and calculated personal political advantage at the time.  But he is going to miraculously change, rip off his Clark Kent political glasses and turn into Liberal Man?

You are living in lala land.

by WMCB 2008-02-01 11:07AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

I can not stop thinking how much Obama is like GWB in terms of his campaigning style. It gets to the point where I have to wonder who is actually behind this crazy Obama syndrome. I would not be surprised even if Karl Rove himself is actually running this circus.

I was leaning toward Hillary before but after this I am not only supporting Hillary but also will support McCain if he gets the nomination. I do not want to another disaster for this country brought by Rovian politics.

by praxis1 2008-02-01 10:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Any Democrat who is threatening

I heard Obama threatening that his supporters would not support Hillary if she gets nomination so many times. Expel Obama first.

by praxis1 2008-02-01 10:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Any Democrat who is threatening

He has done this twice now. What he fails to realize is that Clinton is bringing out a large number of woman and many of them are independent. They are angered when seeing his sly little put downs of Hillary during the debates and his treatment of her in general. Won't go into all the negative buttons he pushes with many women. Also women have some of the best networking systems in country, play groups, school events, various clubs and organizations etc. and this subject is discussed.  One of the reasons Kerry lost was because he didn't win enough of the women vote.

If Obama is the nominee, he might just be unpleasantly surprised at how many of Hillary's independent voters will not vote for him.

by MOBlue 2008-02-02 05:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Any Democrat who is threatening

I didn't say that Hillary's Democratic voters wouldn't support Obama. Since most of us know what is at stake, I think we will. I know it won't be the first time I held my nose and pulled the lever. But not all of Hillary's supporters are Democrats. Independent voters do not have a commitment to the party and many vote based on individual candidate appeal. For various reasons, I think that Obama will lose support from the Hillary group just as Obama believes Hillary won't get support from some of his group.  

by MOBlue 2008-02-02 06:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Any Democrat who is threatening

Obama himself is already threatening the party that his supporters may not vote for Hillary.

He did it again last night in an interview.  

He is a stone cold bully, and does not deserve the name Democrat.  I have NEVER seen a candidate as deliberately divisive as he is, stabbing the party in the back while smiing in your face.    Never.

by WMCB 2008-02-01 10:42AM | 0 recs
by WMCB 2008-02-01 11:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Any Democrat who is threatening

You can't troll rate someone for expressing an opinion that you disagree with.

by OrangeFur 2008-02-02 05:53AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

"Hillary's health care plan forces you to buy insurance..even if you can't afford it!!! You'll pay a penalty if you don't buy insurance!!"

Sounds scary. I thought that Obama didn't like the politics of fear...?

by Tove 2008-02-01 10:26AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated)

This is absolutely depressing for me. This is not the way a Democratic candidate should behave. Especially not on the most important issue of the day.

Also annoying was Clinton's framing of Obama's position on Social Security. I agree with her position, but to call it a tax increase sending your money to Washington was right-wing framing. Fortunately that was on a smaller issue.

I was similarly disappointed with the Clinton mailer hitting Obama on abortion, but at least that was from the left, not the right.

by OrangeFur 2008-02-01 11:12AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated)

Obama  used right wing talking points by saying there was Social Security  CRISIS. The Dems spent over a year debunking the Republican theme that Social Security was in a crisis state. It was one of the few success stories of the Democratic Party during Bush's administration. Just as he aiding and abetting the Republicans to defeat Universal Health Care, he helping the Republicans promote their rhetoric on Social Security. He is undermining very core Democratic programs to advance his own political career.

Having said that, I don't the way Hillary used right wing themes to debunk his stand either.

by MOBlue 2008-02-02 05:24AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated)

Anybody want to bet on what Krugman's column on Monday will be about?

by OrangeFur 2008-02-01 11:13AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated)

this is truly disgusting ...

it's just like Harry and Louise ...


by silver spring 2008-02-01 11:18AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated)

To paraphrase Bill Clinton, this idea that Hillary's plan is universal is the biggest fairy tale I've ever heard.  What is Universal about leaving out 12 Million Illegal Immigrants to clog our emergency rooms and drive up costs - I believe that's your argument against Obama not forcing healthy self-employed people who can afford insurance to buy insurance - and that's the only group who have the ability or motive to opt out.   This mandate brouhaha is meant to distract us from the real issues where all the plans agree.  Far more important than individual mandates is comprehensive Immigration Reform.

by Piuma 2008-02-01 11:54AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated)

The funniest thing is that in addition of leaving out countless Millions from his plan, Obama ALSO does not intend to cover illegal immigrants.  This poster seems oblivious to that fact.

by georgep 2008-02-01 04:04PM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated)

There are a couple of things wrong with your argument.

1.) Obama's program contains mandates too. Parents are MANDATED to ensure their children. Using the premise in Obama's own literture, he makes them pay premiums whether than can afford them or not. He has stated he will inflict some form of penalties if they don't comply.

2,) There is no way any insurance based plan can work without a diverse pool. A plan that only insures people who need to use the services the most is a sure fire way to guarantee that the program will fail because it will cost prohibited. That would guarantee  that any form of universal insurance would be off the table for decades to come IMO. By allowing healthy young people the ability to opt out of the program and have no insurance it raises the cost of the insurance considerably.

3.) Obama plans to financially penalize young people who opt out once they need these services.

4.)Illegal Immigrants who clog our emergency rooms and drive up costs will clog our emergency rooms and drive up costs under Obama's plan. So I consider your point irrelevant. A way to distract from the argument at hand?

by MOBlue 2008-02-02 05:46AM | 0 recs
Fess Up...

Hillary supporter says the mailer is "as outrageous as having Nazis march through Skokie, Illinois." 08/02/clinton_advisers_call_obama_ca.php

This kind of hyperbole is clearly reserved for MyDD posters. So fess up, which one of you is really Len Nichols?

by yedi 2008-02-01 01:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Fess Up...

This non-story isn't going anywhere. The guy wasn't affiliated with Clinton; he was formerly an Edwards supporter. The campaign disavowed his comments while still on the call. He himself has issued an apology.

Having said that, he's as dumb as a post.

by OrangeFur 2008-02-01 01:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Fess Up...

Sorry. Comment below was intended to reply to this.

by yedi 2008-02-01 01:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Fess Up...

While the person went overboard, this mailer is outrageous.  Amazing that not a single Obama fan has a problem with it.  Myopic kool-aid being served right at Obama Central, folks.

Yedi, given that you just started posting here, it is interesting how much "the site" bothers you.  Maybe you should pledge some money to the site, if you want to "complain" about it.  Most of us have.  

by georgep 2008-02-01 03:56PM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated)

I agree it's not going anywhere. I just thought it was funny that I immediately thought of MyDD when I read this.

by yedi 2008-02-01 01:24PM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated)

On the other hand I find funny what I immediately thought of when I saw the user name "yedi."  

by georgep 2008-02-01 03:57PM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated)

shrugs It's a college nickname. What can I do?

As for your post above, I've been around/lurking since summer of 2006. I just don't post very often.

Also, I wasn't "complaining" about the site, and I may very well contribute some money (though as a student with loans, that's a little easier said than done). I think a lot of the rhetoric around here is overheated, that's all. And I don't mean to suggest that it's just Hillary fans. Obama's people can be offensive as well.

by yedi 2008-02-01 05:50PM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated)

Also, I want to add that I do find the mailer pretty awful. I think it's definitely a throwback to Harry and Louise.

I certainly wasn't trying to offend anyone with my post. I just wanted to inject a little levity. If my comment came off as anything other than mere teasing, I apologize.

by yedi 2008-02-01 08:08PM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated)

No, you're fine. I think nerves are a little frayed, and a lot of innocent or dumb things said by some people have been distorted to make Hillary look bad, so some of us are a bit sensitive. Didn't mean to jump on you.

by OrangeFur 2008-02-01 08:21PM | 0 recs
New Politics

This must be an example of that "new kind of politics" that we're always hearing about. You know, the non-divisive, inspiring, healing politics of "hope" and "change."

Oh, I forgot, that's only for Republicans. Silly me. Fellow Democrats get the Richard Daley inspired Chicago-style hardball.

by freemansfarm 2008-02-01 04:00PM | 0 recs
Re: New Politics

"This must be an example of that "new kind of politics" that we're always hearing about. You know, the non-divisive, inspiring, healing politics of "hope" and "change.""

Give me a break.  Hillary can bash Obama on any issue she sees fit, and when he points out a problem in her policy proposal you guys cry like a bunch of old women about his mean "tone."  You are quickly reaching the point where you are no longer taken seriously with your ridiculous complaints.  

Definitely forward this one to Hillary's campaign, so they can add it to her ever increasing list of grievances.

Though I do understand Hillary being mad about having people reminded of the ads from the early 90's.  I'm sure she'd much rather prefer that nobody talk about the fact that the ONE thing she was in charge of in the Clinton administration she produced a massive failure.

by davey jones 2008-02-01 07:55PM | 0 recs
But Obama is Different

Your kettle and pot argument might make a bit of sense except for one big reason. Hillary, unlike Barrack, has never claimed to represent "a new kind of politics." Your guy is supposed to be all about "hope" and "unity" and all that, remember?

In the litte world of Obama-bots, Obama gets to have it all his own way. When he is attacked, we are reminded that he is all about hope and a new kind of politics and unity, and that divisive, critical comments are part of that nasty old politics of the past. But when Obama goes on the attack, we are told we have no right to complain because we do it too. Heads Obama wins, tails Hillary loses. How convenient.

by freemansfarm 2008-02-02 05:21AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

"Ted Kennedy has no fight left in him and has become unfortunately a Republican enabling stooge."

You lost me here.  Teddy Kennedy was fighting for universal health care when Hillary was on the Wal-Mart board (where she curiously enough did NOT fight for health care for employees) and representing every rich bastard in Arkansas.  Who do you think wrote the Medicare act?  Who has advocated "Medicare for all" (essentially, single-payer) for his entire career?

I know you want Hillary to win, but be rational and don't repeat Republican talking points about Ted Kennedy.  You're embarrassing yourself.

by rayspace 2008-02-01 06:14PM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

Walmart employees have health care.  And Kennedy's big health care accomplishment is the Medicare prescription plan which is a disaster.

by MollieBradford 2008-02-02 02:44AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

No, Kennedy's big health care achievement is Medicare itself, which insured the elderly and moved millions of them off the poverty rolls.  

by rayspace 2008-02-02 08:16AM | 0 recs
making shit up?

It was LBJ who got medicare passed.  Teddy Kennedy had little or nothing to do with it.

by MollieBradford 2008-02-02 07:29PM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly!

I quoted your own words back to you.  That should be all the "proof" you need.

If you're not willing to stand up to them, then you have even less credibility than I thought.

by rayspace 2008-02-02 08:15AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated Again)

Yes.   Mimicking the tactics of those that killed health care reform the last time out might seem a clever campaign ploy today, but it will come back to bite him in the ass. That's why all of us who deeply care about getting it done this time (and most especially those who are ardent Obama supporters) should strongly signal their rejection of this.

by lori j 2008-02-01 08:40PM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated Again)

Positions on paper don't mean much. Any of the plans would be a huge step forward IF they were implemented. Hilary will do what is politically expedient no matter what it says on any platform or position paper. She proved that with her Iraq war vote and her lame defense of that vote. She's on the right side of that issue now not out of principle,  as she threw principle aside in favor of political calculation on Iraq. Why would health care be any different?

by hankg 2008-02-02 01:27AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated Again)

There is nothing revisionist about it. Only someone who is delusional would buy the lie that she thought she was voting for inspections. Everyone knew what the vote was about at the time. Trying to have it both ways the next day and give herself some cover doesn't undo the damage of the most critical vote in Bush's term. Kerry, Edwards and Clinton all had Presidential ambitions and did not want to look 'weak' on defense. So they abandoned principles. The Democrats cowardice on the run up to the war cost a lot of lives and has done incalculable damage to this country and the world.

Would Obama have shown more courage had he been a Senator with Presidential ambitions and had as much at stake as Kerry, Edwards and Clinton? Based on his votes to fund the war ,maybe not. But we'll never know, but that doesn't excuse the sell out of those who did have a position of responsibility. Edwards at least had the decency to say he made a mistake that he regrets. Hilary just continues spinning a shameless ridiculous lie to defend the indefensible.

by hankg 2008-02-02 05:12AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated Again)

Bush couldn't have done what he did without enablers and a good number of Democrats played as shameful a role as the press. She gave an eloquent speech and then handed Bush the authorization he needed to go to war and repeated that mistake again with the Iran vote. I'm sure she gave a nice speech before that vote to. Frankly who cares about the speech she gave. I'm sure the American soldiers and Iraqi's that died don't.

by hankg 2008-02-02 06:15AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated Again)
Here is Ari Fleisher in a press conference BEFORE the vote on Iraq: Q Would you consider it an absolute green light? MR. FLEISCHER: As I said earlier, in a question earlier, the President, under the Constitution, has the authority, as Commander-in-Chief, to exercise military options if he deems it's necessary. Today the Congress, on behalf of the people, will also speak and will send a very powerful message around the world that the Congress agrees with the President and is passing a resolution to authorize the use of force. Bush made it plain what the vote was about.
by hankg 2008-02-02 07:10AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated Again)

When the Republican stooge is telling you before the vote that you are voting to allow the President to go to war and the whole country knows that Bush is just itching to invade Iraq and that the resolution is a War resolution. I'd expect you should listen to what he's telling you before you give him the power to start a war.

If Hilary believed she was voting for inspections then she is so gullible and naive that she does not belong in politics. You are underestimating your candidate. I think she is very smart and very savvy about the machinations of Washington and she knew very well what Bush would do with that vote.

by hankg 2008-02-02 08:12AM | 0 recs
Obama is not just anempty talker - he is the lier!

his "medical" plan demonstrates that he is not
a democrat and he does not understand the problem
and that he is the bad candidate.
I will vote for Hillary and I will send to he more money.

Photos above is total disgrace and shame for Obama's
campaign. I hope Hillary wil able to demonstrate it.
May be it is time to ask Bill to attack again?

by WeNeed3rdParty 2008-02-02 02:33AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama is not just anempty talker - he is the l

Great idea. They should take the collar off Bill - let him go in with both guns blazing! There is not much time and Obama's momentum may not be enough to put him over the top. But Bill unleashed would probably ensure a big day for Obama.

by hankg 2008-02-02 05:15AM | 0 recs
This is toooo funny!

Did you get that? a harsher penalty than anything Clinton has proposed

In the end, his plan is not universal, does not attempt to be, and is probably less generous in its affordability provisions than Clinton's. And even so, I wouldn't really care, as it's still a pretty good plan, except that he's decided to respond to the inadequacies of his own policy by fear-mongering against not only better policy, but the type of policy he's probably going to have to eventually adopt. It's very, very short-sighted.

If it's a harsher penalty than anything Clinton has proposed then that would make Obama's plan more "Universal" than Hillary's. Krugman just can't get past the semantics.

by Mystylplx 2008-02-02 08:46AM | 0 recs
Re: This IS Ugly! (Updated Again)

Folks, I'm not getting too upset about this mailer.  Senator Clinton admitted that her plan would have coercive elements to insure universal participation and avoid the free rider problem.  Romney was attacked during the GOP debates for the same types of provisions in the MA plan and made similar arguments in favor of them.

People understand the need for making certain types of insurance mandatory.  Who lives in a state that doesn't require automobile liability insurance?

Parenthetically, I do note that, for an opposition campaign mailer, this one sure has a rather flattering picture of Senator Clinton.

by lombard 2008-02-02 11:03AM | 0 recs


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