Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Excuse me.  Could the inflated talking heads -- and that includes you Mr. Russert and you Ms. Brazile -- shut up for two seconds?

No?

Ok, just press mute and tune out the Pundit Choir (plus, embarassingly, the voices of some progressive bloggers) singing Clinton's swan song at the top of their lungs.  Because I would appreciate a serious response to a serious question:

Why couldn't Barack Obama win the state of Indiana?

Let me re-phrase that:

Why did Barack Obama lose the state of Indiana, a state his own campaign predicted he would win in February, a state he declared would be a "tie breaker," a state in which 25% of the electorate lives in Obama's hometown media market?

The headlines this morning are so predictably anti-Clinton, and once again resemble a bulleted list from barackobamadotcom::

Hillary loses support of white women!
Obama cuts into Hillary's base!
Obama was cheated in Indiana!
It's over for Hillary!
Obama landslide in North Carolina!

Honest headlines written by professionals who still give a damn about objectivity -- you know, that extinct breed -- might read:

Clintons Pulls Off Upset in Indiana
Obama wins North Carolina, as Expected
Obama Loses White Vote by 26 Points in NC

That's right.  Here is a Fact Check for anyone still interested in unbiased election reports:

1.  Obama was favored to win Indiana all along.  Both campaigns had internal predictions that Obama would carry Indiana by approximately 7 points.  Only recently did Clinton begin polling favorably there and once Obama started spending outrageous sums of money on negative ads, Clinton's double-digit lead returned to earth.

2.  25% of the Indiana electorate lives in the Chicago media market, Obama's hometown!  On the day before the primary, the Obama campaign spent $300,000 advertising in that neighboring market.

3. Clinton's share of white women did go down in Indiana, compared to Ohio and Pennsylvania, which one might expect given Obama's aggressive advertising campaign targeted at that demographic, but she still won over 60% of the white vote in Indiana, which means she picked up some white men (is that being reported? no).  Somehow, though, this is being cast as "Clinton lost white women" in support of the meme that Clinton lost support among her white base yesterday.  It's simply false.  She has been gaining white support since February 5th.  

4. Indiana is the only state neighboring Illinois that Obama has lost.

And, although this post is about Indiana...

5. Clinton also improved her share of the white vote in North Carolina (over 60% compared to 50% in Virginia).  And again.. it's not being widely reported.  Obama's share of the African American vote increased in North Carolina as well.

Cliff notes for the weary:  Clinton is the one who out-performed expectations yesterday.  Clinton's core base grew, and Obama did not cut into it.  Obama lost ground in Indiana.  A big Rezko-sized lot full of ground.  A net 9-point loss from his own projections. Despite massive advertising expenditures and a hometown advantage with 25% of the electorate, Obama could not close the deal in Indiana.

On April 11, Obama himself predicted that Indiana would be a tie-breaker:

INDIANAPOLIS, Ind. -- On the second day of his Indiana bus tour, Obama said the state could be a potential "tiebreaker" in the lengthy nomination process.

"I think Indiana is very important," Obama said. "We've got three contests coming up in pretty big states -- Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Indiana. They all have significant numbers of delegates, and they are states where Sen. Clinton and I are actively campaigning."

"You know, Sen. Clinton is more favored in Pennsylvania," he added, "and I'm right now a little more favored in North Carolina, so Indiana right now may end up being the tiebreaker. So we want to work very hard in Indiana. While Sen. Clinton has some advantages here, I benefit coming from an adjoining state." MSNBC.com

Senator Obama was correct.  They both campaigned actively in Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and Indiana.  He was also right in predicting that she would win Pennsylvania and he would win North Carolina.

And Indiana is the tie-breaker. Now, Senator Obama is a smart guy.  I don't think he would have said this had he expected to lose Indiana.  So what happened?

It wasn't Rev. Wright, of course, many analysts have already concluded (including myDD's own Jonathan Singer).  But how do they know?  50% of voters told CNN that Rev. Wright made a difference in their vote, and Obama lost ground with white voters.  Maybe it was Rev. Wright.  Or William Ayres, the Weather Underground friend standing on top of the American flag. Or Obama's unguarded characterization of bitter small-town Americans. Or maybe it was just the slow-motion epiphany that Sen. Obama is not yet ready for the most trusted job in the world.

(The Obama campaign, by the way, is blaming his Indiana loss on Rush Limbaugh, but that's not supported by exit polls, which indicate that the percentage of Republicans who voted for Clinton was consistent with the share of Democrats who voted for her.)

I am sick and fed up of the mainstream media, in particular Obama-drooling Cable TV weaklings such as Tim Russert who dominate prime-time airwaves, distorting facts and misusing the public's trust in order to spin Hillary Clinton out of the race.

Another example:  there are a growing number of articles suggesting that African Americans will "abandon" the Democratic Party en masse in November if Obama is not the nominee.  But I don't hear anyone pointing out that white Democrats might do the same if Clinton is not the nominee, despite the exit-poll data on race and despite that up to 50% of Clinton voters now state that they would never vote for Obama.  

Why would anyone (such as a Superdelegate) assume that white Democrats will ultimately be more loyal to the Party than black Democrats?  Isn't that racist?

Barack Obama lost Indiana.  And I just beg someone more visible and important than an anonymous citizen blogger such as myself, someone like Wolf Blitzer or Britt Hume for instance, to pose the question:  Why did Barack Obama LOSE Indiana, a state he had every reason to win? And what does his loss mean for the Democrats in November if Obama is the nominee?

Note: Exit poll data from CNN.com for Indiana and North Carolina.

TexasDarlin, all rights reserved.

Cross posted at TexasDarlin

Tags: clinton, delegates, Democrats, Demographics, exit polls, Indiana, nomination, obama, superdelegate (all tags)

Comments

290 Comments

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

If the mainstream media would do its job, bloggers wouldn't have to.

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-07 01:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

Thank you for this excellent analysis, Texas Darlin'.

Bottom line: Obama can't close the deal.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 01:10PM | 0 recs
He just did

Team Clinton is just playing out the final two minutes of a game it's trailing by 20.  She might score a few more baskets but the scrubs have taken the floor.

by JJE 2008-05-07 01:26PM | 0 recs
Re: He just did

Heh.. I'm from Kansas, and we know how to win, especially when folks on the other team keep missing free shots.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 01:57PM | 0 recs
in that case

you should surely know you need a miracle comeback if you letting the other team go on a massive run in the middle of the game.  Tarheels didn't choke last night like they did in April.

by JJE 2008-05-07 04:04PM | 0 recs
OBAMA WAS FAVORED TO WIN INDIANA ALL ALONG???

Nice try, but no.

Final Results    --    --    50.7    49.3    Clinton +1.4

RCP Average    05/02 - 05/05    --    49.0    44.0    Clinton +5.0

Zogby Tracking    05/04 - 05/05    644 LV    43    45    Obama +2.0
InsiderAdvantage    05/04 - 05/04    502 LV    48    44    Clinton +4.0
SurveyUSA    05/02 - 05/04    675 LV    54    42    Clinton +12.0
Suffolk    05/03 - 05/04    600 LV    49    43    Clinton +6.0
PPP (D)    05/03 - 05/04    851 LV    51    46    Clinton +5.0
Zogby Tracking    05/03 - 05/04    636 LV    42    44    Obama +2.0
ARG*    05/02 - 05/04    600 LV    53    45    Clinton +8.0
Zogby Tracking    05/02 - 05/03    559 LV    41    43    Obama +2.0
Zogby Tracking    05/01 - 05/02    629 LV    42    43    Obama +1.0
Insider Advantage    04/30 - 05/01    478 LV    47    40    Clinton +7.0
Downs Center    04/28 - 04/30    689 LV    52    45    Clinton +7.0
Zogby Tracking    04/30 - 05/01    680 LV    42    42    Tie
Rasmussen    04/29 - 04/29    400 LV    46    41    Clinton +5.0
ARG*    04/30 - 05/01    600 lV    53    44    Clinton +9.0
TeleResearch    04/25 - 04/29    943 LV    48    38    Clinton +10.0
PPP (D)    04/27 - 04/28    1347 LV    50    42    Clinton +8.0
SurveyUSA    04/25 - 04/27    628 LV    52    43    Clinton +9.0
Howey-Gauge    04/23 - 04/24    600 LV    45    47    Obama +2.0
ARG*    04/23 - 04/24    600 LV    50    45    Clinton +5.0
Research 2000    04/23 - 04/24    400 LV    47    48    Obama +1.0
Indy Star/Selzer    04/20 - 04/23    535 LV    38    41    Obama +3.0
Downs Center    04/14 - 04/16    578 LV    45    50    Obama +5.0
LA Times/Bloomberg    04/10 - 04/14    554 LV    35    40    Obama +5.0
SurveyUSA    04/11 - 04/13    571 LV    55    39    Clinton +16.0
ARG*    04/02 - 04/03    600 LV    53    44    Clinton +9.0
Research 2000    03/31 - 04/02    400 LV    49    46    Clinton +3.0
SurveyUSA    03/29 - 03/31    530 LV    52    43    Clinton +9.0

by doschi 2008-05-07 05:30PM | 0 recs
Re: OBAMA WAS FAVORED TO WIN INDIANA ALL ALONG???

Great post.  As usual around here, posts containing factual information that destroys the diarist's premise are simply ignored.

by chinapaulo 2008-05-07 09:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

Top line - everywhere: Obama is closing the deal.

Anymore baseless assertions to share?

by duende 2008-05-07 01:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

KnowVox,  please keep up the good entertainment.

Obama can't close the deal,   please give us more 1 line zingers like that.

by GeorgeP922 2008-05-07 01:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

Obama can't close the deal, which is why he LOST in Indiana, despite having the home court Chicago media advantage and outspending HRC 2-1 and 3-1.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 01:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

He's such a naughty boy, outspending Hillary, and even worse: SPENDING OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY.

1.5 million people have contributed to his campaign, and what does he do - spend it on winning the primaries? How dare he.

And how dare he bribe superdelegates by contributing to their down ticket campaigns too.

It's outrageous. Campaign finance should be raised by a few rich donors, who then go on paying a few rich lobbyists and media corporations. That's the way it's done. That's the way to make America more democratic and responsible,

MEMO TO OBAMA: stop spending other people's money. Try spending some of your own

by duende 2008-05-07 02:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

I think Obama might even try the ssame tactic in the general election and outspend his opponent!Dirty, cheatin', arugala-eatin' uppity black man!

by soccerandpolitics 2008-05-07 07:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

er, he did not outspend her 2:1, let alone 3:1 in IN. Can you come up with a credible source for that bit of questionable information?

by notedgeways 2008-05-07 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

Why do they ignore the fact that Obama is forking out HUGE amounts of money? He's outspending 2/3 to 1 and he still lost Indiana. Is that their idea of closing the deal?

by zenful6219 2008-05-07 03:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

Not only does he utilize his superior campaign donations, but he also gives inspiring speeches and registers thousands of new voters!  I hate it when he wins dirty!

by soccerandpolitics 2008-05-07 07:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

you're making the Obama supporters' argument for them - Hillary can't raise enough money to win against Obama - how is she supposed to beat the VRWC if she can't raise the money?  Hmmmm?

by brooklyngreenie 2008-05-08 07:06AM | 0 recs
he i snot closing the deal
he is losing every state where there is not a huge AA population.  He even lost a few points in that demographic in IN.  
what is his problem and when will the party save us from this 50 state disaster?
by TeresaInPa 2008-05-07 01:55PM | 0 recs
Re: he i snot closing the deal

There sure are a ton of blacks in Iowa, Minnesota, Nebraska, Kansas, North Dakota, Idaho, etc.

Want to make up some more facts?

by PSUdan 2008-05-07 02:04PM | 0 recs
Re: he i snot closing the deal

Were not most of these wins in states like IA, MN, NE, KS, ND, and ID by Obama due to the rigged caucus process?, which TX proved to everyone!  I do not think any of these states like IA, MN, NE, KS, ND, and ID have huge AA populations like they do in SC, NC, GA, MS, AL, LA.  Most of these deep southern states have not been carried by a Democrat since the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed.  They all went Republican and will do so again in November.  I do not see Obama winning any of the states in the South that I listed here!

This election should have been a slamdunk for the Dems in 2008, but now race and gender has raised its ugly head in our party giving McCain a sure win in November.  It makes one want to weep.

by mcctx 2008-05-07 03:59PM | 0 recs
He won more primaries than her

and we're going to win NC this year.  NC is lead by the nose by VA and VA is goimg Dem this year if only to elect their oh-so popular former governor Mark Warner.

by nklein 2008-05-07 04:52PM | 0 recs
Re: He won more primaries than her

I don't know where you get your information.  North Carolina is not Virginia.  The heavy AA vote can win the primary for you but the general is a totally different game.  Obama will not win N.C.  If he's the nominee, McCain will take N.C.  I made calls here for three weeks.  And I heard it over and over and over - from Democrats - they'll vote for McCain if Obama's the nominee.

by Tolstoy 2008-05-07 06:54PM | 0 recs
Re: He won more primaries than her

By the fact that NC has always throughout its history voted as VA, from presidential elections to the constitutional amendments.  Check out a political history of NC.

by nklein 2008-05-07 10:49PM | 0 recs
Re: he i snot closing the deal

Who in the heck started throwing snot around! Good lord! Clean it up!

by futbol dad 2008-05-07 08:27PM | 0 recs
Re: he i snot closing the deal

Don't forget my state, WI.  Everyone always forgets us and we are actually one of the larger states.  We are mostly white and Obama won almost 60% of the vote here.

by catalysis 2008-05-07 06:06PM | 0 recs
Don't Forget Utah

There's about as many blacks in Utah as there are Clinton supporters there--almost none.

by soccerandpolitics 2008-05-07 07:35PM | 0 recs
Re: he i snot closing the deal

Let's count some states with a huge AA population:

WA,ID,MN,ND,WI,MA,NH,CO,UT,NV,WY,HI...

off the top of my head.

by reenactor 2008-05-07 02:05PM | 0 recs
Re: he i snot closing the deal

Alaska. I've heard it's like Detroit North.

by jbill 2008-05-07 04:35PM | 0 recs
Re: he i snot closing the deal

East St. Louis.  Mos def.

by fogiv 2008-05-07 09:46PM | 0 recs
a separate tally for Black votes?

Should we not be counting Black Democrats votes?

Maybe the Democratic Party should have a "White" pre-primary. Once the Dem Party has established the stronger candidate with "White" voters then Blacks could either ratify the choice or skip the primary.

Would that kind of voting system be an improvement in your mind?

by Carl Nyberg 2008-05-07 02:48PM | 0 recs
Why can't hillary catch up
Oh how sad you are teresa. Hillary couldn't pull out the major victory she needed last night. Once again Teflon Obama wins the day. And now hillarys chances are slipping away fast.
Drip
Drip
Drip
by venician 2008-05-07 02:51PM | 0 recs
Re: he i snot closing the deal

A new item in the list of conditions under which Hillary would already be the nominee: if African American votes only counted 3/5.

by zomoskeptic 2008-05-07 03:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

Obama is closing the deal everywhere?  Like Calif, Tex, Ohio, Penn, Fla., Indiana, NJ?

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-07 01:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

Except that he'll likely win 3, if not for of them.

by Tenafly Viper 2008-05-07 02:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

Even scarier, he's closing the deal in states Democrats never win in the general.

by phoenixdreamz 2008-05-07 02:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

Thats only if you use old election maps..

Obama and his netroots campaign have redrawn the electoral map. In most states I believe that registered Democrats now outnumber republicans.

Hillary's focus is only on the handful of big states.. the non latte sippers( Like New York and California.. those latte haters?)
Obama will bring many more states into play.
You see its a change in how politics is done..

We can stick to the old and obviously loosing, big state strategy, like Clinton...
or we can embrace the new changing American population and attitude which will redraw the US electoral Map a lovely shade of blue this November.

by Winterblink 2008-05-07 02:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

Then why is McCain beating him in MA of all places and most other states in polls now?  One of the most Dem states in the union like MA that even McGovern won in 1972!

by mcctx 2008-05-07 04:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

if you look at the graph jerome so kindly supplies, you'll see that you are talking out of your ass. and the mass poll is an outlier. every other poll i've seen has him winning comfortably.

by jbill 2008-05-07 04:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

Your in la la land!  Dream on!

by mcctx 2008-05-07 05:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?
Pleasae stop using today's polls as to what will happen in Nov.  Yes, the swing states do count for something...but this time the electoral map could change.  You cannot possibly predict with such certainty what will happen between aug and nov.
This post is really interesting...especially when past polls show that texas darlin is not giving the facts - Hillary was expected to win Indiana and Obama to win North Carolina.  Why you are spinning this is beyond me!  In PA the guy came within 9.2 points....slicing that from 20+.  Hillary was considered the second coming after PA - she 'slaughtered' Obama, huge victory....when NO ONE thought he would overtake her there.
The NY Times says today that even with MI and FL (and giving projected vote totals for remaining primaries), Obama is still ahead in pop vote as well as pledged delegates....is this true does anyone know?
by mariannie 2008-05-07 09:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

this is only wishful, utopian thinking.  Get a grip on reality.  Obama will not win states like NC in the fall, no matter how much you wish it to be true.

by slynch 2008-05-07 06:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

This looks like fun, lets play a game.  You name a state where Hillary closed the deal, then I name a state where Obama has.  Back and forth and I bet you  run out of states long before I do.  Also nice call on Texas, though I don't know if I'd count a -5 delegate shift is a win.  FL doesn't count either, wanna name more big states?  

by matchles 2008-05-07 07:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

A deal isn't closing, it's closed, That's like the check is in the mail. in the haste to bully Hilary off the court the press has called her demise more than once, but this really is the question. We do need a candidate who has the best chance to win against McCain, and the race isn't over. Chill out whoever you are, there is more to come.  

by anna shane 2008-05-07 02:33PM | 0 recs
Speaking of
the check is in the mail...
why does Hillary need to keep loaning her own campaign money?
by alb 2008-05-07 09:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

You got that right, KV.  Thanks.

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-07 01:44PM | 0 recs
you're right! Obama sucks as a candidate

What's it say that he's beating HRC in a race where she started with advantages in fundraising, name recognition, national networking and superdelegate support?

by Carl Nyberg 2008-05-07 02:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

And Hillary has no clue how to make one in the first place.

by MNPundit 2008-05-07 04:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

If the media did it's job maybe they'd talk about the fact that 1 in 8 Clinton voters in Indiana and 1 in 6 Clinton voters in North Carolina said they would vote for McCain if Clinton won the nomination. This compares to 1 in 22 Obama Indiana voters and 1 in 32 Obama North Carolina voters who say they will vote for McCain if Obama wins the nomination. If you subtract these votes clearly cast just to meddle in the process from the total Obama would have gone from -2 in Indiana to +3 and from +15 in NC to +22.

by Obama Independent 2008-05-07 01:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

More screwy Obama math. 2.5 MILLION voters in Florida and Michigan don't count, either. In your imaginery world, why not just press your delete key and erase McCain? LOL

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 01:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

Yes I know, facts are hard for you to deal with. What does Florida and Michigan have to do with voters who abused the right to vote that so many have died for in order to cause mischief? Are you saying all the voters in those states cast votes for false pretenses too?

by Obama Independent 2008-05-07 01:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

Im a voter in Florida and we didn't abuse anything. It was out of our hands, and disenfranchising us because a few state legislators and Dean are primes examples of a failure of leadership just isn't fair.

by phoenixdreamz 2008-05-07 01:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

His point was that the Florida/Michigan voters DIDN'T abuse the right to vote; the Limbaugh-following, mischief-making republicans did. He's saying you can't compare the two.

(Although it's technically not abuse if they're allowed to do it, but you get the point.)

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-05-07 01:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

Johnny has it right, I most certainly did not mean that I believe that Michigan and Florida cast their votes to cause mischief and was just trying to point out the inanity of KnowVox's response to my comment.

by Obama Independent 2008-05-07 01:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

blame your states leadership for the stupidity of moving up the date.

i lived in FL for 4 years (undergrad) so I still have many friends whom live there. So I'm a bit empathetic to the whole ordeal. However, even the few people I know who voted for Hillary in FL acknowledge the fact that the election was neither fair nor do the grounds for the contest to be ligit  exist.

in fact, I'm willing to bet that if your state's leadership did NOT move up the date, Hillary would have walked away with a smaller percentage win but a higher vote margin of victory. Then again, it's not about the popular vote is it?

by alex100 2008-05-08 06:23AM | 0 recs
You could well be speaking of

Marcos Moulitas when he encouraged Democrats to "cause mischief" in Michigan for the Republicans by voting for Romney. It's ok to "...abuse the right to vote that so many have died for," if you're a Democrat?

by Rumarhazzit 2008-05-07 03:37PM | 0 recs
Re: You could well be speaking of

When have I ever said that mischief voting is ever okay? Why don't you address the actual comment instead of throwing up strawman arguments that have nothing to do with what is being discussed.

by Obama Independent 2008-05-07 03:50PM | 0 recs
I was just asking a question...

by Rumarhazzit 2008-05-07 03:55PM | 0 recs
Who says it was mischief?
All the Dem candidates agreed with the DNC that Michigan votes would not count in the primary.
I voted for Ron Paul since, because my vote would not count toward my favored candidate, I could at least give Paul a hug for his sincerity and anti-war stance.
by barnowl 2008-05-07 04:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

More blatant Knowvox innumeracy. 55 per cent of MI voters don't count. And all the voters who stayed at home in MI and FLA, because they were told by ALL candidates that the primaries wouldn't be counted, are also disenfranchised by that old logic.

It didn't work. The whole MI/FLA twisting, the elitism charge, the appeal to a mythic gun toting shot drinking white working class. None of these tactics worked. Get with the programme. At least come up with some new spurious mendacious argument, and not the easily demolished old ones.

by duende 2008-05-07 01:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

The diarist asked why Obama didn't win, and the post you are mocking answered the question - Operation Chaos made the difference.  Your response borders on the Chewbacca defense - ie non responsive.

by interestedbystander 2008-05-07 01:37PM | 0 recs
operation dumbass

is what lost Obama IN, he was the victim of his own self afflicted wounds.

by TeresaInPa 2008-05-07 01:57PM | 0 recs
Re: operation dumbass

Inflicted, it's you that's afflicted.

by interestedbystander 2008-05-07 02:01PM | 0 recs
Re: operation dumbass

Hide-rated for calling a fellow Democrat a dumbass, unprovoked.

Be better than that.

by The Great Gatsby 2008-05-07 03:54PM | 0 recs
HIllary used to say they wouldn't count too

until she needed them.

by kellogg 2008-05-07 03:21PM | 0 recs
Making that claim is hypocritical for your side

Because it is your candidate who has benefitted most from Republican crossovers in this campaign.  Clinton's margins among Republicans have come only in more recent contests and are smaller than the ones received by Obama earlier in the campaign.

And please don't give me the self-serving line that his GOP votes were honest ones while all of hers came from mischief makers.  The truth is most likely than each candidate has both types voting for them.

by lombard 2008-05-07 01:43PM | 0 recs
It's not a claim

It's not a claim, it's data right there plain as day in the exit polls. From the NC exit polls, if the only two candidates on the November ballot were John McCain and Hillary Clinton 14% of respondents said they would vote for John McCain. Of that 14%, 48% were people who indicated they voted for Hillary Clinton in the primary.

by Obama Independent 2008-05-07 02:04PM | 0 recs
I know I am wasting my breath, but will anyway

You appear to only be interested in data that supports your position.  Go back over exit polls available on CNN throughout the primary.  You will see that my statement above is essentially correct.  I have admitted that she received more Republican support in IN and NC (although, in at least Indiana, not that much more) but this primary contest is not limited to Indiana.

Plenty of people of Republicans who voted for Obama throughout this primary would have also responded that they would vote for McCain in the Fall if asked on their particular exit poll but the polls don't always have the exact same set of questions.  

Now, please stop being such a pointlessly argumentative Obamabot.  Just acknowledge that each candidate benefitted from voters of different perspectives at different times, Obama got more of those votes, and move on.

by lombard 2008-05-07 02:14PM | 0 recs
Re: I know I am wasting my breath, but will anyway

Why don't you stop being such a troll going around insulting people pointlessly over who they support and take another look at what I'm saying.

This has nothing to do with party affiliation. This has everything to do with people who vote for Clinton in the primary who say they will not vote for her in the general. Yes there are indeed people who say the same thing about Obama but it is a much much much smaller proportion of his support.

Again according to exit polls in NC 14% of respondents say they will vote for McCain over Clinton in a general election. Of that 14% almost half are people who supported Clinton in the primary. Also in NC 18% of respondents say they will vote for McCain over Obama in a general election. Of that 18% only 10% are Obama supporters in the Primary.

by Obama Independent 2008-05-07 02:28PM | 0 recs
For the 3rd time!

This contest was far bigger than IN and NC.  Those tendecies differed throughout the primary season but you are extrapolating to the entire contest based on ONE NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by lombard 2008-05-07 02:49PM | 0 recs
Re: For the 3rd time!

When have I ever extrapolated this point to the entire contest? TexasDarlin asked why Obama lost Indiana and I answered that. To your point I did look at exit polls in past elections and this particular question was not asked so it's not possible to determine how many chaos voters there were in previous elections.

by Obama Independent 2008-05-07 03:02PM | 0 recs
My comments are directed to my exchange

with you, not with TexasDarlin's.  I have no idea about the subject of your argument with her.

And you are absolutely correct. There is no way to determine the exact motivations of Obama's earlier heavy GOP support, so you shouldn't try to make the claim that Clinton's wins in this contest (not just in IN and NC) have been aided and abetted by GOP mischief makers while not entertaining the same possibility that those people have helped Obama, too.

I'm going to make this very easy. Regardless of whether GOP voters were motivated by Rush or some other reason to vote in the Democratic primary, those same voters are unlikely to vote for either Democrat in the GE because around 90% of Republican voters typically vote for Republicans
in the GE.

I think it is quite likely that Obama benefitted earlier in the campaign from Republicans who honestly thought he might be a good choice and from Republicans who just wanted to derail Clinton.  After all of the Wright press, some of those Republicans that would have voted against Clinton or for Obama in the past, changed their minds and saw Obama as the more offensive candidate (relatively speaking) of the two.

by lombard 2008-05-07 03:15PM | 0 recs
Re: My comments are directed to my exchange

When have I claimed any such thing about other Clinton wins? I have made the claim only about Indiana and North Carolina because there is available evidence that supports the claim. A large portion of her vote in these two contests came from voters who will not support her in a general election, this is clear from the number of people who said they voted for her in the primary and would not vote for her in a general election. The evidence is right there in black and white. Why is it somehow off limits for me to point out what is plainly there for all to see?

by Obama Independent 2008-05-07 04:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

I don't follow...you're assuming that people who voted for Clinton (but won't consider Obama) are disingenuous Clinton supporters?  That is really far fetched.  A new one...

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-07 01:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

I'm saying no such thing. I'm saying if you look at the exit polls a large number of Clinton voters say that if Clinton wins the nomination they will vote for McCain. Voting for a candidate you have no intention of supporting in the general election is the very definition of a disingenuous supporter.

by Obama Independent 2008-05-07 01:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

actually, it isn't.  One could prefer the candidates in this order: McCain, Clinton, Obama.  In the primary, the person votes for Clinton, because she's preferred over Obama.  In the general, the person votes for McCain.  This isn't disingenuous at all.

by slynch 2008-05-07 06:40PM | 0 recs
If you have no intention to vote...

in the general election for the person person you supported in the primary, you are the definition of a disingenuous voter.  There is a reason many states have laws which prohibit crossover primary voting if the person intends to vote for the other party in November.  There are many states where you have to sign a legally-binding pledge.  No, that is indeed disingenuous.

by nklein 2008-05-07 11:12PM | 0 recs
Re: If you have no intention to vote...

First, try dictionary.com.  This is not disingenuous voting.  Second, I made no assumption about crossover voting.  Many people are registered in one party and vote in the primary for their preferred candidate (in their party), but they may prefer the person from the other party in the general.  This is not disingenuous.  You're ascribing a negative motive when there isn't necessarily one.

by slynch 2008-05-08 07:38PM | 0 recs
Then why is there a law against it...

in several states.

by nklein 2008-05-08 08:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Then why is there a law against it...

there is no law against voting in the primary of the party you are registered in and then voting for the other party in the general.  Not one law in ANY state.

by slynch 2008-05-08 10:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Then why is there a law against it...

We're not discussing Democrats who voted for a Democratic candidate in the Democratic primary, but plan on voting for the Republican even if the candidate they vote for wins.  We're talking about Republicans that are crossing over and have no intention to vote Democratic in November.  There are laws against that.

by nklein 2008-05-09 02:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Then why is there a law against it...

No.  That is an assumption you're making, which is what I was pointing out to begin with.

by slynch 2008-05-09 03:32PM | 0 recs
Well, I am a long time Democrat who has never
voted for a Republican for President in my adult life and I will NEVER vote for Obama because he fanned the fires of racism in order to obtain
90%+ of the black vote.  I would never vote for a racist with a white skin and I will never support a racist with a black skin.  If Obama is the nominee, I will on that day donate money to McCain and I will campaign against Obama and I will vote for John McCain unless I can talk Hillary into running as a third party candidate in which case I will vote for Hillary.
by macmcd 2008-05-07 01:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I am a long time Democrat who has never

And then after I'm done throwing this immature tantrum, my mommy will give my binky back.

by LtWorf 2008-05-07 01:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I am a long time Democrat who has never

As an Obama supporter I have been just as disgusted with the Clinton campaign but you know what? If she prevails in the nomination I will hold my nose and vote for her in November because John McCain will be a disaster for this country. If you can't see this simple truth then we will just have to win without you.

by Obama Independent 2008-05-07 02:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I am a long time Democrat who has never

I'm sure the mothers of dead soldiers in Iraq from McCain's concept of eternal occupation will appreciate your decision.  So will the poor deprived of healthcare.  We'll have you to thank for a senile president.  If a terrible crisis happens, we'll have some hothead with no impulse control overseeing the largest nuclear arsenal in the world making decisions.  We'll thank you for your current, rash decision.

by reenactor 2008-05-07 02:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I am a long time Democrat who has never

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous.  The reason that Obama 'lost' Indiana is that he was up against a very, very strong candidate, with 100% name recognition, a former President and a charming, powerfully intelligent daughter campaigning for her.  Not to mention a lot of money, a lot of endorsements, and good policies.  It is a historical candidacy, and she did very well.
    Calling Obama a 'racist' (or Hillary, for that matter), is over the top.  I hope you do campaign for McCain, if this is how you intend to do it, because you will only insure that McCain loses.

BTW, both Gore and Kerry got 90+% of the black vote, too.

by haremoor 2008-05-07 02:22PM | 0 recs
Re: I will never vote for a racist with white skin

If you voted for Senator Clinton then you voted for a candidate who used racism to divide this country. Get real, Obama is not a racist. Neither is Hillary, but her manipulation of race for her own personal gains in the campaign means I will never ever vote for her.

The difference is that as a life long Democrat I would also never think about donating money to McCain or voting for him. If Hillary were the nominee, I would have wrote in a candidate or not voted the top of the ticket.

But you seem angry and spiteful as well as out of touch with reality. Hey, who you vote for is your own business but don't use Obama as your excuse. Take responsibility.

by batgirl71 2008-05-07 02:23PM | 0 recs
Re: I will never vote for a racist with white skin

aren't you using Hillary as an excuse in claiming that you couldn't vote for her given her use of race in the primary? (which, by the way, is bs.  Obama is the one who used race throughout)

by slynch 2008-05-07 06:45PM | 0 recs
Re: I will never vote for a racist with white skin

Just keep telling yourself in Hillaryland that it is all Obama's fault because it doesn't fly anywhere else.

And nope, I'm not using Hillary as an excuse to vote for McCain because I never would vote for McCain. I am done being used by politicians by voting for the lesser of two evils. I will only vote for candidates that I can truly support.

Can the Hillary supporter truly say he/she supports McCain and his positions? If so, then that person and/or Hillary is in the wrong party.

by batgirl71 2008-05-07 07:53PM | 0 recs
Re: I will never vote for a racist with white skin

I don't live in 'Hillaryland,' obamabot.  I simply don't like Obama and don't believe he is electable.

Please, his race-baiting has been documented again and again and again.  If you choose to ignore it, you're living in fantasyland.

by slynch 2008-05-08 07:44PM | 0 recs
President McCain thanks you

And you deserve every 0 you get.

by N in Seattle 2008-05-07 03:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I am a long time Democrat who has never
Did you stomp your feet while you wrote that. Mommy Mommy give me what I want or I will hold my breath til I turn blue.
It's nice to see though that you have moved to the bargaining stage of your grieving process.
by venician 2008-05-07 03:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

CNN presented a pretty compelling demographic breakdown of Indiana voting patterns which clearly showed that more than any other group, people over the age of 65 were responsible for pushing Hillary across the finish line as the winner.

by phoenixdreamz 2008-05-07 01:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

And they will be a critical segment for pushing the GE winner over the finish line...

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-07 01:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

And AAs won't?

And young people won't matter in the next several decades?

Grasping. At. Straws.

by sorrodos 2008-05-07 02:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?
And what about latinos who went for Clinton in all the Southwestern states from CA to TX.  In TX, Clinton won two thirds of the latino vote!
Poor Obama!  Many of those latinos will vote for McCain over Obama in a heartbeat!
by mcctx 2008-05-07 04:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

Maybe... My guess is no. McCain has to walk a VERY fine line... The GOP pretty much alienates the Mexican-American vote with the anti-immigration talk.  Sooo he can either go with the Mexicans and piss off the Conservatives or he can go with the Conservatives and piss of the Mexicans. My guess is the latter.  He'll try to please both, but we all know what happens when you try to please everyone... [you end up pleasing no one]

by jturn17 2008-05-08 06:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE?

I admire your tenacity.

Don't give up unless it is over.  It's not over yet.  But if Clinton does not prevail, I hope you work to unify the party.

Defeating McCain is very important.  Both Obama and Clinton know that.

by TomP 2008-05-07 03:15PM | 0 recs
All of the people who passionately

support Hillary with words, deeds, and money will be there for Obama if he wins the nomination. However, as long as there is chance that she can prevail and she doesn't throw in the towel, we will be there with her until the last voter has voted, the last delegate - super or otherwise - has voted, and FL and MI have been resolved in a way that both sides can abide by. We are Democrats first, but we are passionate and steadfast when it comes to our candidate. As long as she's in it, we're in it.

by Rumarhazzit 2008-05-07 03:52PM | 0 recs
As you should be.

I was like that with Edwards.  

Keep fighting.

by TomP 2008-05-07 03:59PM | 0 recs
I think Kerry did Edwards in

by internetstar 2008-05-07 08:42PM | 0 recs
That is not the right question.

On one hand you have a Senator who did not have national recognition until the 2004 DNC convention, and even then not widespread recognition.

On the other you have the dominant name in the Democratic Party for the last 16 years. Who started out as the "inevitable" candidate. Who had a massive network in place. And who had more support from a former President than anyone else in Primary History.  And the President and Name she runs under had the highest approval rating of any President leaving office since WW2.  In addition to that her opponent was attacked by the Right Wing .   And a major figure on the Right Encouraged "Strategic" voting in favor of HIllary Clinton.

With all that in Hillary's favor how did Obama win 32 out of 48 contests to date?

And how does a campaign that is so far in debt justify staying in the race?

Obama is 33 Delegates away from a majority. And 169 away from the nomination.

And if the "Clinton" name did not allow her to win the Democratic Primary outright, where the Clintons are popular, how do you think it will play in the rest of the country, where Clinton is considered the third worse President behind Bush and Nixon.

And pushing a Republican Economic policy (Gas Tax) in a "Red State" how did she manage to have such a narrow margin of victory?  Which reports indicate her margin of victory was less than "strategic voters" who will be voting McCain in November.

by Tumult 2008-05-07 04:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

expectations changed, we all expected a bigger Hillary win.

EVEN you thought she would have a bigger win, that explains it all right there.

have a nice day

by TruthMatters 2008-05-07 01:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Actaully, Obama expected to win Indiana, and felt it would be the "tie breaker."

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 008/04/11/878455.aspx

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 01:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

yes, hence that change part, Obama was expected to win, and then expectations changed.

shall we look up the predictions and see if anyone predicted C+2? heck Zogby called a Obama win and was laughed at, it was pretty much the CW Hillary was going to win by 5-10

by TruthMatters 2008-05-07 01:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

The only problem is, Obama's expectations didn't "change" until he LOST.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 01:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

yeah, sure and if you say that enough, the MyDD prediction thread will disappear full of everyone calling Indiana for Hillary by 5-10, or the one at talkleft, that was calling it 5-10 I mean jeeez we all must have completely forgotten what yesterday was like. that NO one remembers the expectations that we could actually believe that yesterday Hillary wasn't expecting a 5-10 win.

by TruthMatters 2008-05-07 01:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Obama himself predicted an Indiana win.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 02:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

He also predicted that he'd win NC by only 8 pts.  Guess he was wrong about that too.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-05-07 02:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE

Yeah, and Clinton predicted she'd be the nominee by Super Tuesday.  Things change.

by rfahey22 2008-05-07 03:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

And Clinton's internals had her up by 5. So what?

It's not about who was expected to win, it's about who actually won.

Clinton won the state. That is fantastic. She fought hard.

Why not focus on the win instead of suggesting that Obama should have beaten her?

by jdusek 2008-05-07 04:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

WHY did "expectations change?"

He should have easily won Indiana will all his money and his good reputation in Chicago.

Even that fine Gary Indiana mayor couldn't put him over the top.

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-07 01:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

All his money?

Actually, it was SUPPORTERS MONEY (unlike some people  we could mention) but that was so unfair of him, wasn't it, to raise to much money from all those supporters.

Shame on you Barack Obama for raising so much money.

by duende 2008-05-07 02:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Seriously, what the hell does Chicago have to do with Indiana? You've obviously never spent any time in the state.

Obama used the money from 1.5 million supporters, and none of his own (unlike some elitist candidates) to secure the Democratic nomination.

by reenactor 2008-05-07 02:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Look, expectations don't trump the reality in Indiana.

Indiana is a neighboring state to IL. Obama had much more money to spend than Hillary. And, most importantly, he was the candidate who SHOULD be getting a significant "rallying around the future nominee" effect.

But the voters in Indiana chose otherwise.

I think that it's pretty fair to say that among the voters who chose Hillary over Obama, there's a significant number who must be really unhappy with Obama as a potential President. (And it doesn't do Obama the slightest good as a future nominee if there may likewise be Obama voters who really don't like Hillary as a nominee.)

In a way, it may just be that this year neither candidate will have a good chance at winning the general, because the party is so split, and each side has so much come to detest the other. It's hard at this stage to see AAs coming out in great force for Hillary. And it's even harder to see the swing voting Reagan Democrats choosing a candidate like Obama, whom many of them seem to intensely dislike.

In which case, welcome to the nomination, Senator Obama. If you want to be the one who goes out and loses, I'm sure Hillary won't stand in your way for that.

by frankly0 2008-05-07 01:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Just to put my first point another way: expectations don't get around the reality that if Obama LOST Indiana, it absolutely demonstrates his weakness as a candidate at this late stage of the game.

Yes, he will probably manage to limp across the finish line ahead, but significantly injured.

Problem is, this is only the qualifiers, not the finals.

That race still lies ahead.

by frankly0 2008-05-07 01:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

I love the way you answered yourself above. It's a circular conversation with yourself, that tells us all we need to know.

by duende 2008-05-07 01:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

you're right, unfortunately.

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-07 01:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

I'll trade you a Reagan Democrat for an "elitist" socially liberal Republican anyday. I've got a whole extended family of them lining up behind Obama.

by batgirl71 2008-05-07 02:33PM | 0 recs
True

She fell below updated expectations in both states and, since her situation was so critical, she could not afford to do that.  Winning Indiana by 2 and losing NC by 14 might have been just fine for her in February but not in May.

by lombard 2008-05-07 01:47PM | 0 recs
"And Indiana is the tie-breaker."

Just keep repeating the mantra...you're in your happy place, in your happy place...

by McNasty 2008-05-07 01:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Does it really matter? It was a narrow loss, and it doesn't change the scoreboard anyways...

by Jaffee 2008-05-07 01:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Will Obama's win in NC really matter if he can't carry this red state (which went solidly for Bush in 2000 & 2004) in the GE?

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 02:18PM | 0 recs
North Carolina is blue-ing, fast

Adding up all of North Carolina's House races into a single "presidential vote surrogate" measure, the percentage of Democratic votes has increased dramatically in the last three cycles:

2002 -- 44.5%
2004 -- 48.9%
2002 -- 52.9%

Yes, there were more Democratic votes than Republican votes for House candidates in 2006.  It's not an exact equivalent of presidential voting, of course, but it's absolutely clear that Democratics are doing much better in North Carolina in recent years.

by N in Seattle 2008-05-07 03:34PM | 0 recs
Re: North Carolina is blue-ing, fast

Yeah, and next you're going to argue KANSAS is turning blue. LOL

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 04:50PM | 0 recs
Re: North Carolina is blue-ing, fast

OK, fine, just dismiss an 8.4% improvement with a flippant and content-free reply.  What's your interpretation?

North Carolina currently has Democrats in 7 of its 13 CDs, and that'll go to 8/13 when Larry Kissell ousts Robin Hayes in November.

FTR, the equivalent Kansas numbers:

2002 -- 32.7%
2004 -- 34.8%
2006 -- 44.6%

Not turning blue, but one hell of a lot more competitive now than it was in 2002.  If Nancy Boyda can hold onto her seat, its Congressional delegation will remain at its current 2/2 split.

by N in Seattle 2008-05-08 09:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

"Limbaugh Democrats" swung the Indiana election.  Something we can all be proud of.

by SpideyDem 2008-05-07 01:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

That's a flat out lie. Indiana exit polls showed that the preference of R's who voted was only 2% different from the D's. R's were 10% of the voters, so 10% of 2% is 2/10ths of one percent- less than the margin of victory. For Axelrod to claim that R's gave Hillary the victory in Indiana is a flat out fabrication.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 01:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

I would never lie to you KnowVox.  You are far too important to me.  If you would kindly go in the same exit poll to the people who said they planned to vote for McCain in the general election, you will see that Hillary won them overwhelmingly, and in numbers that exceeded her margin of victory.  Not all Republicans are "Limbaugh Democrats."  Those who are actually intending to vote Republican in the Fall are more likely to be "Limbaugh Democrats."

by SpideyDem 2008-05-07 01:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Even your pal Keith Olbermann is telling viewers tonight that the Limbaugh effect hasn't worked.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 01:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Well all the Clinton supporters on this site tell me he's a hack and a liar, so why should I believe him.  I really liked him on SportsCenter, though.

by SpideyDem 2008-05-07 01:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Didn't work or didn't happen?  Two different things.

by interestedbystander 2008-05-07 01:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

A lie? Or an opinion?

http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=1165

by duende 2008-05-07 01:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

A lie.

Limbaugh couldn't even sway his own Republicans against McCain.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 01:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Please stop calling me a liar.  I would never lie to you.

by SpideyDem 2008-05-07 01:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Axelrod lied to you.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 01:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

No, it's even better than that cuz I didn't hear it from Axlerod.  I heard it from ... wait for it ... THE GREAT ORANGE SATAN!!!

by SpideyDem 2008-05-07 01:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

....Who heard it from Axelrod.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 02:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Also heard from Axelrod NC would only be a one digit win.

He's got NEARLY everything right since Feb. But he's not perfect....

But he is winning

by duende 2008-05-07 02:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

You might want to check Deval Patrick's approval ratings:

What should trouble Mr. Obama the most is that the stirring rhetoric of Mr. Patrick's 2006 campaign, now being recycled by the Illinois senator (at times, word for word), is no longer connecting with Massachusetts voters. A mid-April poll found that 56% of the state's voters disapprove of the governor's performance. Even among left-leaning Democrats, more than four in 10 disapprove of Mr. Patrick.

Voters in Massachusetts had hoped Mr. Patrick's reformist promises and appealing style would mean a makeover for a tired political culture that has long since stopped producing satisfactory results. Instead, they, along with voters in southern New Hampshire and northern Rhode Island (which receive Boston news), now seem wary of the Obama-Patrick connection. These areas turned out heavily for Hillary Clinton in the presidential primaries and helped her carry all three states.

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB12 0977620145164219-lMyQjAxMDI4MDA5MzcwNzM2 Wj.html

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 02:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Obama is not Deval Patrick, even if they share a campaign manager. He's not Mayor Daley either.

I appreciate your concern for the Obama campaign, and it's many failures and shortcomings. I'm sure your positive input will help in the fall when you'll redirect your admirable qualities of research and argument into defeating the republican nominee.

by duende 2008-05-07 02:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

You're the one singing praises for Axelrod, et al. It hasn't turned out that great.

And I intend to use my "admirable qualities" to ensure that Hillary Clinton is our nominee.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 03:25PM | 0 recs
"admirable qualities"

Accumulating delegates is a much better method.  It seems to be working rather well for Senator Obama.

by N in Seattle 2008-05-07 03:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Gathering Delegates

Hillary Clinton has reportedly picked up another two super-delegates today. Rep. Brad Ellsworth (D-IN) is now backing Hillary, on the grounds that she carried his district in the primary. He joins Rep. Heath Shuler (D-NC), who also announced earlier today that he's supporting Hillary because she carried his district.

The overall super-del score: Hillary 273.5, Obama 260.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 04:48PM | 0 recs
Oh dear

by duende 2008-05-07 03:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Why are we troll rating my new friend KnowVox for this comment?

by SpideyDem 2008-05-07 03:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Say you're sorry, KnowVox.  This is a time for Unity.  

by SpideyDem 2008-05-07 01:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

OK, that's it KnowVox, you had your chance.  Now I'm not voting for your candidate in the Fall... Who is your candidate?

by SpideyDem 2008-05-07 01:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Sorry, but I'm standing up for MILLIONS of disenfranchised voters in FL and MI who deserve to have their voice heard.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 01:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Ha!  I am one of those voters.  Thanks dude, but my douchebag DLC-style Florida legislative delegation already ruined that for me.  Rules was rules.  I don't want my voice heard.  Take my voice, KnowVox!!!  You can have it!!!

by SpideyDem 2008-05-07 01:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Good. Then stand up for the 55 percent in MI who didn't want Hillary even though she was the only name on the ballot.

'Nuff said.

by duende 2008-05-07 01:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Your guy VOLUNTARILY removed himself from the ballot.

Nuff said.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 02:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Yup. And though Hillary said it wouldn't count, she's now trying to say it will.

Game, set. Just waiting for match.

by duende 2008-05-07 02:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Why are we troll rating my new friend KnowVox for this comment?

by SpideyDem 2008-05-07 03:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

   Give it up. You have no idea what disenfranchisement means.
by southernman 2008-05-07 03:05PM | 0 recs
Is your math correct, KnowVox?

This is kind of OT, since even if I'm right it doesn't change your point.

It seems to me that when you are trying to compare the difference between the republican vote and democratic vote, you can't just look at 52% and 54% and then say it was only two points more. You also have to consider that the number of votes for Obama goes down by two points. (As with defecting superdelegates, one voter counts as a net of two voters.)

As I said, even if I'm right it doesn't provide the margin of victory, so your point stands. I'm just checking.

P.S. Count me in the camp of people who think that republicans participating in "Operation Chaos" might not be entirely truthful with exit poll workers, and thus the data are suspect and shouldn't be used by anyone to support an argument.

by alvernon 2008-05-07 02:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Is your math correct, KnowVox?

You're correct. It's off-topic, it doesn't change my point and my point stands.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 02:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

You're misreading the poll. The numbers above say that the Republicans who voted preferred Clinton by 8%. Since 10% of them were Republicans, this boosted her numbers by 0.8. (not 0.2)

However if you check the other question, about what people would vote in a Hillary vs McCain contest, you'll see that 7% of the voters voted for Hillary but would choose McCain over her in November.

Only 2% of the voters voted for Obama but would choose McCain over her in November.

That basically means that the votes by people who don't really support either Democrat candidate against McCain, boosted Clinton's numbers by around 5%.

by Aris Katsaris 2008-05-07 08:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Step away from the kool-aid...

oh....noooo! It's the kool-aid cliche!

by soyousay 2008-05-07 01:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Step away from the kool-aid...

Do not engage this person!  This person is a rogue Cynthia McKinney supporter with an agenda.

by SpideyDem 2008-05-07 01:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Step away from the kool-aid...

Heh :D That was a "gotcha" moment.

by soyousay 2008-05-07 01:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Step away from the kool-aid...

Full disclosure - soyousay is not a McKinney supporter (that I know of) - inside joke from another thread ... move along ...

by SpideyDem 2008-05-07 01:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Step away from the kool-aid...

Maybe Hillary should leave the Dem party and join the Green Party and run as Cynthia's VP.

Sheeeit,  it beats joining the Lieberman War Council, or following in the footsteps of her rancid advisers (Penn, Morris, Carville, etc etc)

by GeorgeP922 2008-05-07 01:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Step away from the kool-aid...

Ok funny, inside joke.

Really though, we need Democratic Rehab for our politicians "ready to lose office".

We could have prevented the monster that is Lieberman, had we checked him into rehab after he lost his primary.

Cynthia, could spent some time in Dem-Rehab and instead of joining the ridiculous Green Party she could be a "strategist" and have a job on msnbc or something.

by GeorgeP922 2008-05-07 01:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?
It's okay.
You can stop spinning.
The war is over.
by jaiwithani 2008-05-07 01:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Only recently did Clinton begin polling favorably there and once Obama started spending outrageous sums of money on negative ads, Clinton's double-digit lead returned to earth.

No, his numbers slid when a certain pastor decided to make the media rounds.

As for everything else in the diary, I'll leave you to your solace.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-05-07 01:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Whether he won or lost doesn't matter. He can lose the battle and win the war.

The war is for delegates, and here is the math.

The media, and this site, treats all supers as alike. They are not. Especially add-ons which will be selected usually because of who they support. Point in fact, the Gov. of NY would not approve an add-on unless they were a known Clinton supporter.

Most add-ons have not been selected, and there are 30 from Obama states. Let's for a moment assume that 25 of these will go for Obama (he is also likely to pick up 1 from CA,)  Let's also assume Clinton finishes with a fairly strong finish in the remaining states and picks up 15 more pledged delegates than Obama. Finally, factor in the 8 Pelosi club members for Obama, and add in the PA rep that is waiting to declare.

Without any other supers, just the assumption of 25 (of 30 add-ons).

Obama needs 18% of the remaining supers,
Clinton needs 91%

If 10 supers announce support for Obama, which might just happen by Saturday,

Obama needs 14%
Clinton needs 95%

If 20 supers announce for Obama, then it's all over.

Obama needs 10%
Clinton needs 99%

This is why a defection is so bad. A defection counts as two, and Clinton had one today.
That's the math. That's why Clinton needed a big win in Indiana, and to limit Obama's PD gains in NC.

by PatrickBradish 2008-05-07 01:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

TexasDarlin i expect your diary on Clinton calling NC a game changer and then never mentioning it again after losing.  Very troubling indeed.

Why can Hillary not win primaries?

by Bobby Obama 2008-05-07 01:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Let's see, she's one every major state except Illinois, including Florida, Michigan, NY, NJ, Mass., Texas, Ohio, Calif., and Pennsylvania.

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-07 02:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Did the rules committee come out and say that only the biggest states matter?

I must've missed that....

by PSUdan 2008-05-07 02:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

No, the Electoral College rules say that. You must've missed the Gore v. Bush Supreme Court decision.

by KnowVox 2008-05-07 02:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

I could have sworn that the Electoral College chooses the winner according to the results of the GENERAL ELECTION. But apparently the specifically non-precedent-setting Gore v Bush decision changed that?

Or perhaps you're just a disingenuous, lying troll?

by kyle in philly 2008-05-07 02:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Wow, it's too bad those other states suck so bad.  Let's never mind that any democrat would win CA and NY.  Or that Obama is polling better than Clinton in MI and TX.  Or in fact that in MI Clinton was running unopposed.

by reenactor 2008-05-07 02:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Even I have to admit, I was disappointed with her performance last night.

And then I woke up today and thought, a month ago, Obama and his supporters were arguing that Hillary would drop out after she lost NC and IN by 20 points.

Well, she won Indiana and lost NC by 14. Now losing NC by 14 is upsetting, but considering it will be a red state come Nov, does it matter?

And Indiana is also a red state come Nov, but it borders Obama's and it should have been won by him...and it wasn't.

I have to give credit to Obama: losing Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, California, New York and Texas took a lot of effort, and to still be considered a potential Dem nominee after that, well, my hat is off to him.

by njsketch 2008-05-07 01:17PM | 0 recs
*sigh, and yet Hillary didn't win her neighbors...

She didn't win Vermont which is a swing state or Connecticut which is a blue state.  But I'm sure once I tell you that there will be a new metric which favors Hillary.  

The expectations game is always just a little bit more tough on him isn't it?  Even when he does better than she does, somehow it's never enough.

by Tenafly Viper 2008-05-07 01:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?


  NJSketch, so naturally Hillary's victories in PA and NJ were not that impressive to you? Since both of them border New York right? Hillary was supposed to win there....so all the hype, especially after PA, was just nonsesne right?

 that's what you seem to be saying.

by southernman 2008-05-07 03:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Hmm, I could've sworn I saw a poll with double digit lead for Hillary right after PA.  Obama was favored in IN?  Can someone tell me where the goal post is today please?  And it is not even September yet!

by ETHIOLIB 2008-05-07 01:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Just out of curiosity - why is North Carolina dismissed so easily as a state that Obama was supposed to win, yet Pennsylvania, a state that Senator Clinton was predicted to win all along, is considered "turning the tide?"

I think we all know that the party has broken into strong constituencies that favor each candidate and it doesn't look that that dynamic is going to change from now on.

If Senator Clinton runs the table, then I would say that the tied has indeed turned and the superdelegates have a lot to think about. Until then, it will be, as Senator Clinton says, a situation where "he wins, she wins, he wins..." right up to June 3rd.

by GrahamCracker 2008-05-07 01:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Hillary barely win?

C'mon...this is getting a little ridiculous.  
Based on the expectations game,  Hillary lost.

If you take a look at the numbers (99%, Hamilton county, heavily for Obama is still being counted), Hillary is leading Obama by 14413 which is 1.5%.  When the numbers are fully tallied it will be 1% win.  I'd call that essentially even.

So why, if Hillary was supposed to win Indiana by upwards of 5 did she barely squeak out a win?  And why did she lose so badly in NC when she was supposed to keep Obama's lead in the single digits.  

I don't agree with your expectations logic, but there it is quite easily reversed.

by Tenafly Viper 2008-05-07 01:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Because Republicans voted for Hillary

http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=1165

Now why would they do that?

Hillary has been ahead in Indiana for the last two months by an average of ten, and before that by an average over twenty...

So why didn't Hillary win Indiana more convincingly?

by duende 2008-05-07 01:23PM | 0 recs
Republicans did not vote for Hillary
when is the last time you met a transparent republican.
You really think they're going to broadcast what they're doing?
by internetstar 2008-05-07 08:43PM | 0 recs
by gunner 2008-05-07 01:23PM | 0 recs
It's the money Lebowski!

Ever seen the movie?
Best line ever, plays into political culture 110%

At the end of the day it's all about money.

I hope none of you diehards didn't make fun of Romney too much.

I took much pleasure in his loss, it's weird to see a Democrat do the same.....

by GeorgeP922 2008-05-07 01:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Hillary did well to win Indiana given her financial disadvantage and the other advantages mentioned.

But because she's behind, doing well isn't enough. It isn't that Hillary performed badly last night, its that she didn't change the game.

by liberalj 2008-05-07 01:32PM | 0 recs
I'm so sick of poor Hillary w/ her money problems

It's a ridiculous argument anyway.  She had the monetary advantage before super tuesday (thanks to her big money, dlc supporters) and she squandered it.

With the way Hillary supporters frame it, you would think that his advantage has come from a malevolent source.  Never mind that the people who are voting for him are also financing his campaign.  If I didn't know better, I would think he robbed some girl scouts or sold babies, or something.

by Tenafly Viper 2008-05-07 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Um...  Even if you change expectations now, that doesn't make the 90% or more of voters who have already voted somehow un-vote.  The time for expectations is past.  The time for concession is at hand.

by username3 2008-05-07 01:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Of the 28 Polls taken in Indiana, Clinton won 18, Obama won 9, and one was a tie.  Obama's largest margin of victory was +5 on the LA Times poll 4/10-14 and the Down's Center poll 4/14-16.  Clinton had margins of +5 or greater in 15 of the 18 polls she won, including a +12 in the SurveyUSA poll taken between 5/2-4.

by Piuma 2008-05-07 01:34PM | 0 recs
Hillary who?

by DemocraticLuntz 2008-05-07 01:35PM | 0 recs
Even if Obama lost Indiana

Even if he was expected to win. Say the momentum is with Senator Clinton now (which isn't the case), the fact of the matter is, when all is said and done, Clinton needed something a whole lot better than -15 in the delegate outcome from last night. She needed to be +10 or +15, and ended up in the negative.

That's why whichever way you try to define or spin last night's result, it won't matter. The Clinton camp understands this. Their bank account right now is dictating a reality that many aren't ready to deal with. Just give it a few days.

by lizardbox 2008-05-07 01:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Even if Obama lost Indiana

By the way, the margin of victory right now is 1.11%

by Piuma 2008-05-07 01:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Even if Obama lost Indiana

And they are still counting provisionals.

by interestedbystander 2008-05-07 02:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Even if Obama lost Indiana

Don't forget that she is now back to the pre-Penn popular vote tally, where even when including FL and MI (as is with Obama gainin 0 votes in MI which is laughable) Obama is still up over 150000 votes..

Where does she make that up?  

In Oregon where she is trailing by 12 points?
In KY and WV where there are fewer voters combined than in Oregon?
In PR?

I'm sorry, I just don't see it.

By every metric, barring a strange reversal whereby Clinton wins EVERY contest from here on out by more than 70-30% she can't catch him.  Not in popular votes and not in delegates.

by Why Not 2008-05-07 02:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

I give up -- why?  I'm guessing it's because Sen. Clinton got more delegates and popular votes...? But by that logic, aw heck, never mind.

by Twin Planets 2008-05-07 01:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

McGovern has switched over to Obama this is leadership and this is the Obama affect.

by Politicalslave 2008-05-07 01:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

McGovern isn't a superD.

by colebiancardi 2008-05-07 01:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

No he"s just her mentor and Feinstein looks as if she will switch and she is a superdelegate.

by Politicalslave 2008-05-07 02:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

LOL. He's found his electoral soul mate finally!

by Ga6thDem 2008-05-07 08:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Obama's NC win was quite a step down from his VA win almost 3 months ago. VA has about the same demographics as NC but look at the declines vs. VA's 2/12 primary:

40.3% decline in white men
26.6% decline in white women
2% decline in black men

This bodes ill for the GE.

If the Superdelegates give the nomination to Obama, not only will he lose in November but the party will be horribly damaged.

by Nobama 2008-05-07 01:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

But... but... NC is a red state and therefore doesn't count... right?

by Zotnix 2008-05-07 02:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

I wouldn't worry too much. The Virginia election happened when Sen. Clinton's campaign was flailing around in confusion for a month after Super Tuesday. She'd gotten her act together for the NC primary, so it's not surprising that she did a little better there.

And, of course, Sen. Clinton is a much more attractive candidate than Sen. McCain. Based on my back-of-the-envelope calculations, I see Sen. Obama winning NC in the general election with a 30% margin. (He's polling lower right now, but that's because the press has been ignoring Sen. McCain and a lot of North Carolinians have forgotten what a truly reprehensible person he is.)

by mazement 2008-05-07 04:30PM | 0 recs
Truthfully, Obama lost Indiana because

those people who were making up the fake votes until practically midnight ran out of fake absentee votes and they were still 23 thousand short because Hillary has such big support in Indiana.  I am sure Obama was saying, why or why couldn't we have talked Indiana into having a caucus because they are so much easier to steal.

by macmcd 2008-05-07 01:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Truthfully, Obama lost Indiana because

Troll rated for making baseless accusations.  If you give me some proof, I'll recinde it.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-05-07 02:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Truthfully, Obama lost Indiana because

Fuck you! I'm a Hoosier and I take exception to your trollish comment. I hate anonymous boards, because you get to make all the outrageous comments you want without having to show yourself.

by zep93 2008-05-07 03:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

His losing Indiana was rendered irrelevant by the changing goal posts as we approached the primary. The media and pollsters made it seem as though Wright had effectively neutralized Obama as a candidate, and I think both campaigns bought into it a little too much. The pollsters heralded dramatic movement her way (one even called for a NC win) and when it didn't materialize, is it any wonder that it seems like the sky is falling on her today?

It's odd and perhaps a touch ironic that the same metric that benefitted her in PA now works against her in NC. She was supposed to win it all along but did so convincingly thanks to expectations shifting as the primary neared. That allowed both her campaign and the media to tout the win as something greater than it was - the same thing that the media and the Obama campaign are doing now in NC.

Honestly, were this not the last large primary round left in the campaign, I'm absolutely certain that nobody would be talking about her campaign as ending today. But this is really it. All that remains are smaller primaries that are extremely unlikely to change the outcome. I can't stress enough that they should all be allowed to participate and I would firmly reject Obama calling for Clinton to suspend or end her campaign before they do. I see very, very little hope remaining for her at this junction, though.

by jandz 2008-05-07 01:57PM | 0 recs
How dare you!

How dare you come on here and make reality based comments such as this one!

Dont you know there is no place for critical thinking and rational analysis on the web?

/snark

Couldnt agree more with what you had to say

by pattonbt 2008-05-07 05:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Extremely bad week + Operation Chaos would be the obvious answers.  The fact that Clinton only squeaked by is truly amazing.

by leshrac55 2008-05-07 01:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

People are beginning to see the real Obama; that's why he lost.

by LA 2008-05-07 02:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Right. It's just now dawning on us that he's really quite ... urban. We'd better cross the road before he passes us on the sidewalk.

by seand 2008-05-07 05:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Only one poll in IN showed Obama with a large lead and no other polls corroborated with that poll. The rest of the polls showed a spectrum of Obama leading and Clinton leading by small amounts. The overall average favored Clinton by 5% at least.

Could it be... gasp Obama was WRONG in his prediction? I mean, he did extrapolate all the way out from February.

Now, why DID Obama lose IN by... what... less than 15,000 votes or so? Well, you see, there is thing Clinton has called... what's the word...

SUPPORT

And SUPPORT makes it so people vote for a candidate. Hillary is a candidate. Hillary has nice strong support. Partially because she is very well-known and has solid Demcorat support.

Why does Clinton win rural white and working class votes? I have my own theory. Maybe I'll write a diary on it. It has to do with information availability.

That said, for whatever reason, Clinton solidifies her support here (I have my own theories on this as well).

The bottom line is that Clinton was favored to win. By 5 points at least. Obama, by many models, outperformed in many rural areas and urban areas. He won by beating all the expectations for the state even if his overall tally resulted in barely a loss.

You can't spin this to be somehow a big Clinton win. She should have won this handily. She instead squeaked by with barely 15,000 votes to her column. She lost the night delegate wise. Her entire PA win is completely erased by NC and she didn't offset IN enough to make her have any kind of net gain out of all the contests.

Let's face it. As the New York Post stated, she is "Toast."

by Zotnix 2008-05-07 02:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

In 4 tracking polls over the past 5 weeks, Clinton has never polled lower than 52%, Obama has never polled higher than 43%.

http://www.surveyusa.com/index.php/2008/ 05/05/clinton-has-the-hoosiers-right-whe re-she-wants-them-24-hours-till-votes-ar e-counted/

No one expected him to win this thing. Most everyone on this site was predicting a double-digit win for Clinton. Todd predicted "just under" 10%. Jerome predicted C+8. Check out the MyDD predictions thread:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/5/15135 8/5645#commenttop

No one expected him to win Indiana. A spreadsheet that turned 3 months old the day of the election is hardly pertinent here. Give it up.

by Mandoliniment 2008-05-07 02:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Typical fact-based post from an Obama supporter.  Move along, nothing to see here...

by chinapaulo 2008-05-07 10:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

His lost in his home court after the last minute attempt by the mayor of Gary county to help rig the vote.  There is not much I can say except thank God there is still justice in this world.

by JoeySky18 2008-05-07 02:18PM | 0 recs
Proof?

Or are do you feel it's a good thing to propagate baseless rumors?

by jaywillie 2008-05-07 02:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Troll rated for baseless accusations of voter fraud.  If you have evidence, I'm sure the FEC and Justice Department would be most interested.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-05-07 02:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?
Congratulations to HRC on a close Indiana victory. Since the two candidates got roughly the same number of votes, it's hard to draw any conclusion about the general from this, other than the conclusion that these two candidates in the general might make Indiana equally competitive. I don't go along with any conclusion that HRC would do better in Indiana than Barack, if that is the point of this diary.
Let's all agree to work together for the eventual nominee. I'd like to hear from HRC herself how she now plans to become the nominee.
If she is not the nominee, I hope she will still be an enthusiastic campaigner and recommend that her supporters do the same.
by applecrispbetty 2008-05-07 02:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

and applecrisp, I'd like to hear from Obama how he plans to become the nominee?  Does his plan including continuing to ignore 2.5 million people in 2 key swings states, Mich and Fla?

If he's so confident, why not agree to seat those delegations in full immediately?

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-07 02:23PM | 0 recs
Why doesn't Terry Macauliffe(sp?)...

...back up what he said to Carl Levin in 2004, that if MI moved up its primary, he would have no choice as DNC chairman but to NOT SEAT MI's DELEGATES?

by jaywillie 2008-05-07 02:31PM | 0 recs
But we can seat them if you want...

and she'll still be behind 92 delegates and about 100,000 votes.

by jaywillie 2008-05-07 02:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Hi Texas Darlin,

They are working on that now?

Some agreement will be met, and FI and MI will have a working agreement BEFORE Oregon?

So, since that seems to be a major issue for you, will you THEN say you will vote for the Democratic Nominee in the fall (BTW, that will be Senator Barack Obama.)

by WashStateBlue 2008-05-07 02:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

And how will 48 other states feel about 2 states not being punished for putting up their primaries?

How will 48 states' worth of voters feel about the election outcome possibly being changed by two states that, by the rules, should not be counted at all? (This is now unlikely, actually.)

The sanctions are clear. They broke the rules. They have the consequences.

A solution that is fair to BOTH CANDIDATES needs to be reached. These two states can't change what the other 48 states decided. 48 states that played by the rules.

It is not Obama's fault they broke the rules. The voters should be angry with their party within the state for breaking the rules.

by Zotnix 2008-05-07 02:38PM | 0 recs
Honest Questions

Do you believe that MI and FL should be seated, in full, as is (no delegate penality and no allocating uncommitted delegates from Michigan to any candidate)?

Do you believe Florida should receive a 50% penatly?

Do you believe Michigan should receive a 50% penalty?

Do you believe Michigan should get the 'death penalty' (100% punishment) for thumbing their noses at three primary election cycles of warnings about their attempts to break the primary timing process and being constantly warned of the repercussions of said actions beforehand by ALL parties involved?

My answers would be: No, Yes, No, Yes.

I have some sympathy for Florida but none for Michigan.  But they both broke the rules so some penalty must be imposed (my opinion obviously).

by pattonbt 2008-05-07 05:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?
I heard on the news that this issue will be settled in a May 31 compromise. Since any compromise would involve Obama getting some Michigan delegate representation, it would have no effect on the final outcome. Obama will campaign vigorously in Mich/FL for the general and they will like him once they get to go see him and know him, which was not possible in the earlier primaries held illegally and based only on name recognition. In Nov, if Obama gets nearly all of HRC's earlier support in FL
(added to the additional support he will pick up), he could even put Florida in the Democratic column. It's academic to say what HRC "coulda woulda shoulda" done, because that's water over the bridge.
by applecrispbetty 2008-05-08 09:40AM | 0 recs
No one expected Obama to win IN

over the last 2 or 3 weeks.  It looked like a pretty safe Clinton point.

Using expectations from February is a major fallcy in your reasoning.

See, it's not February any more, so what you're saying really doesn't make much sense.

by jaywillie 2008-05-07 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Wash Blade, which endorsed Hillary, calls on her to drop out:

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsm emo.com/2008/05/paper_that_endorsed_hill ary_ca.php

Whatever, though.  I'd actually prefer her to stay in, at least until the 20th.  I think Obama will beat her himself soon enough.  

by bosdcla14 2008-05-07 02:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

You can't determine the success of Operation Chaos by just looking at people who stated that they were Republicans. READ UP ON IT. The whole point is to be INCOGNITO. Most of them probably didn't even take exit polls, but the ones that did, by and large, probably did not say they were Republicans.

by vcalzone 2008-05-07 02:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

But beyond that, you couldn't be more predictable if you tried. At least when Clinton kicked Obama's butt in PA, I conceded she still had a decent shot. Anyone still convinced Clinton has more than a prayer of a chance is just going to be lost in their own world even after she concedes. And frankly, I don't think I'd like for those people to still be here after that if they can't stop talking like 12 year olds defending Miley Cyrus.

by vcalzone 2008-05-07 02:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Good point, but if my experience of republican trolls here is anything to go by, INCOGNITO is after shave or something to them: they can't help telling the world how clever they are, which is of course completely dumb

by duende 2008-05-07 03:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

You're missing the point.  The only reason the media would ask that question would be if they were actually doing their jobs.  They aren't.

Russert, Matthews... heck, let's just say the whole lot of them at MSNBC, CNN, and the rest -- They are in business for the $$$, the sensationalism, and the self-promotion.  They aren't interested in truth or news.

by PlainWords 2008-05-07 02:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Sorry, TexasDarlin it's over.

I like Hillary.  Her and her husband have served our country well.

But this one is over.

by chewie5656 2008-05-07 02:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Because they're both strong candidates with strong support in a state where the demographics of support split fairly evenly?

I know, I know, I'm over-simplifying.  It MUST be because one candidate is great and the other evil incarnate.  I mean, it's not possible to have two great candidates with strong support fighting a fairly even battle, right?

by ThinkerT 2008-05-07 02:40PM | 0 recs
I have no sympathy for you.

I've tried on numerous occasions to engage you in meaningful dialog but you ignored me.

Your diaries are anti-Obama nonsense.  Your comments are rude.

Your candidate has lost, my candidate has won.  Live with it.

by GFORD 2008-05-07 02:40PM | 0 recs
Re: I have no sympathy for you.

Hey. Gford. Thanks for the mojo. Told you I'd be back, your BRITish friend.

by duende 2008-05-07 03:11PM | 0 recs
Re: I have no sympathy for you.

This post expressed so succinctly what I've felt for months around here.  With a few exceptions, Clinton supporters on MyDD seem entirely unwilling to engage in actual reasonable conversations where ::gasp:: facts are used to support arguments.

Comments containing factual information that in any reasonable world would end an argument immediately are simply ignored; Jerome Armstrong writes blatantly dishonest and misleading posts every day; New insane metrics are devised every day to legitimize Clinton's candidacy.

by chinapaulo 2008-05-07 10:03PM | 0 recs
he won only 8 counties

out of 40+ counties.  It is pretty evident why he truly did lose Indiana.  CNN election results has excellent maps of the distribution of Obama's vote.

by 4justice 2008-05-07 02:41PM | 0 recs
Re: he won only 8 counties

This metric is as silly as "the map is mostly red, it is clear who won the presidential election."

A lot of those counties had very few people.

by Zotnix 2008-05-07 02:43PM | 0 recs
Re: he won only 8 counties

are you really that dense?

by pacified 2008-05-07 03:37PM | 0 recs
Re: he won only 8 counties

therefore Obama is the nominee because he has won more states.

by pacified 2008-05-07 03:42PM | 0 recs
Re: he won only 8 counties

He won every county with a decently sized city in it.  That's pretty good, and why there was only a 1.4% difference in popular vote...

by reenactor 2008-05-07 05:27PM | 0 recs
Re: he won only 8 counties

Yup, it's too bad for Obama that we use this "most counties" metric to decide the nomination...

Oh what? We don't?

by Mandoliniment 2008-05-07 07:18PM | 0 recs
Why did Hillary LOSE:

Minnesota, Wisconsin, Missouri, Iowa, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Kansas, Maine, Virginia, Vermont... and 20 other states?  

I doubt this will receive a response.    

by froggyman 2008-05-07 02:49PM | 0 recs
Why troll rate my comment?


   in that other post TexasDarlin. What did i say that was trollish?

   

by southernman 2008-05-07 02:55PM | 0 recs
Obama will be McGovern in November

Except that McGovern was MUCH more qualified.

by observer5 2008-05-07 02:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama will be McGovern in November

And if he is?

The sad fact for you is that you do not get to make that call for anyone else.  Sure you may believe what you say in your heart of hearts.  Or you may just be saying this as a last ditch effort to try and convince the world that your candidate is the best and the other is the devil.  Or you could be a whiny sore loser who cant accept that both candidates are good and bad and have great chances at winning.

The problem is, the facts just dont support your conclusion.  

Obama will win this primary outright so the GE is his to win or lose.  He may lose.  Who knows what can happen.  No candidate is a lock.  But it is Obama's to wear.  He has won the right.

If you are any sort of rational democrat you would recognize this, suck up your hard feelings (God knows I have to in the past) and support our candidate.

If you cant do that?  Well, then sorry to see you are a petty child.

by pattonbt 2008-05-07 05:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Why did Obama come within two points in a state the polls said he would lose handily?

by niksder 2008-05-07 03:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Down to 1% now.  She still wins the delegates 38-34, but the crowd here stopped counting delegates a long time ago.

by Skaje 2008-05-07 03:22PM | 0 recs
Come From Behind

I dont think Obama EVER ONCE polled +7 in IN.  
SURVEY USA: 3/29-3/31 Clinton +9
SURVEY USA: 4/11-4/13 Clinton +16
SURVEY USA: 4/27-4/29 Clinton +9
SURVEY USA FINAL POLL: Clinton +12

HOW DID SHE COME FROM BEHIND? (as even she claims)

by affratboy22 2008-05-07 03:13PM | 0 recs
Finally -- thanks for some good sense!!!

I thought Indiana was one of those that Obama was supposed to win, way back.

So we got suckered by higher expectations? But so what? We WON. Obama did much worse than he should have. He's on the slide. Clinton won and is gaining further among the demographics important for the November election.

Why is everybody inhaling the Big Media smoke and mirrors?

by 1950democrat 2008-05-07 03:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Hmm, I don't know.  But why don't you answer me a few questions?

Why Did Clinton LOSE 31 contests?

Why Did Clinton LOSE 12 contests in a row?

Why Did Clinton Win Indiana because of Republicans?

Let me do you a favor and answer those questions for you instead:

Because the Democratic primary/caucus voters have decided that Obama is their nominee.

by RussTC3 2008-05-07 03:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Midway through November I'm sure you will be scratching your head and asking yourself a couple of questions.  Why did Obama lose so many states?  Why did McCain get more than half the popular vote?

by Montague 2008-05-07 08:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Yeah. Fuck those delegates and voters. They're stupid and drank Kool-Aid and don't know what they were doing and are black and are young and don't live in Appalachia. Give Hillary the nomination because Montague says he can't win, and he with his mixture of psychic prowess, political analysis and adolescent petulance can divine the future.

Rise Hillary Rise!

by jbill 2008-05-08 08:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?
the first poll EVER taken in Indiana was the SUSA Poll showing Clinton already above 50%
(C52% O43) and ahead by 9%.  When the Obama camp predicted that in February he would win it does not seem as if there was ANY data to back it up and just assumed because it bordered IL.  
So, from the VERY FIRST public poll she LOST 1% (52-51%) and he gained 6% (43-49%)
Keep Telling Yourself he "came from behind"
by affratboy22 2008-05-07 03:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Keep telling yourself she "came from behind"

by affratboy22 2008-05-07 03:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Please stop this crap already, can we please move on?

by Hope Monger 2008 2008-05-07 03:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

People need to stop rec'ing these terrible diaries. This does no good for Clinton or anyone for the matter.

by Forward with Feingold 2008-05-07 03:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Please.  Your screed might be a little more credible if there weren't dozens of Clinton supporters predicting that she'd win IN by at least 10 pts. in the days before the primary, and polls showing her with various leads before then.  A lot of people here bought into Wright 2.0 and the PA results and thought it would be the end of Obama.  That's what happens when you inflate your own expecations - you lose, even when you win.    

by rfahey22 2008-05-07 03:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

You know what's really funny? I live in Indiana, and I was fully prepared to be told that we didn't really count if Obama had won. I guess since Clinton won we get to count. Can you correct me if I am wrong?

by zep93 2008-05-07 03:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

"Why couldn't Barack Obama win the state of Indiana?"

Because Hillory Clinton had enough support to win it 51/49. There's no controversy here. Obama is still leading in pledged delegates. No controvery there. Senator Clinton is still leading in SDs (with a lead down to 11.5) today.

I don't get the real controversy about the Indiana & N. Caroline results. I guess I just don't believe that if instead of Obama +14 in NC & Clinton +2 in Indiana, it had been Obama +10 in NC & Clinton -2 in Indiana, then all the silent SDs would speak out.

by catilinus 2008-05-07 03:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

It's interesting, I wouldn't call 4 new superdelegates a flood, which is what BO got today.

Clinton got 2 today.

So, net 2 SDs for BO today.

Hmm.

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-07 04:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

You're right. 4 New superdelegates isn't a flood.

by catilinus 2008-05-07 05:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

technically, net three. one of hillary's switched

by jbill 2008-05-07 05:20PM | 0 recs
"Facts," eh?

I admit, I haven't taken the time to read through all of the comments, so I don't know if this has been addressed yet. But for a diary claiming to be a "fact check," I feel that you and I have different definitions of the word "fact."

You said:

1.  Obama was favored to win Indiana all along.  Both campaigns had internal predictions that Obama would carry Indiana by approximately 7 points.  Only recently did Clinton begin polling favorably there and once Obama started spending outrageous sums of money on negative ads, Clinton's double-digit lead returned to earth.

Last night, in the Clinton speech thread, I said:

Towards the beginning, she said:

   We've come from behind

Huh?

There was that one poll in February that showed an enormous Obama lead, but I don't recognize the pollster and it didn't match anyone else. Since then, Clinton has lead in every polling average.

How did she "come from behind" to win Indiana?

It just doesn't fit the data.

So, yes, there are legitimate questions that can be asked about why Clinton won Indiana, why Obama lost it, and why it was so close. It's even possible that both campaigns predicted an Obama win. But by what measure can you say Obama was "favored to win Indiana all along"?

As I said before, it just doesn't fit the data.

by Fitzy 2008-05-07 04:26PM | 0 recs
If you are going to quote facts to them.

Then you get to be on their suicide watch, when you burst their Clinton Based Reality Bubble.

To save lives I have to tell you that you are nothing more than an Obama Cultist.  And you could never understand Hillality.

by Tumult 2008-05-07 04:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Ahh, Tex. Why am I not surprised?

by ragekage 2008-05-07 04:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Why does it matter?
Barack Obama is now the nominee.
Get over it.

You can't say that its bad that he lost in a state that Clinton has been consistently ahead in.  (Other than a completely unscientific poll two months ago conducted by MARK PENN!)

In fact, he came back and almost beat her.  Even with Rush Limbaugh in the picture.

Get over it.
Support your nominee and lets get on with beating John McCain!

by broncoelway 2008-05-07 04:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Awesome Diary. Very easy to see why it sits atop the Recommended List.

Great writing!

by Pagan Power 2008-05-07 04:47PM | 0 recs
this is a bit petty no?

by ab03 2008-05-07 04:50PM | 0 recs
Hillary blew it in Indiana. Spin away.

Hillary took a state in which she had every supposed advantage - low African-American population, Chicago media market flogging Rev. Wright for weeks, large blue collar population, and one in which she needed to win, and she came just shy of losing. That is the story.

She additionally took North Carolina, a state in which she needed to at least come close, and got creamed. That is the story.

It's about the numbers. With Hillary's losses yesterday there became literally no chance of her winning the most pledged delegates, which was largely true before but now is literally ridiculously impossible, AND she lost the ability to catch up in the popular vote, EVEN when what to do about MI and FL is settled. That is the story.

The story is that yesterday Hillary lost. She has not bowed out yet, but she also has no way to win.

by Travis Stark 2008-05-07 04:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Operation Chaos

Enjoy the sullied win.

by IowaMike 2008-05-07 05:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

It's completely irrelevant at this point.

Clinton only won voters who are 65 and older. Yes, they went for her big enough for her to get 1.8% ahead of Obama, but that is not a solid base for the general election.  

by politicsmatters 2008-05-07 05:31PM | 0 recs
Texas D~ Two Words: Operation Chaos.

TD...Rush got at least 40K worth of votes out of his sack of crap listeners, I'd be willing to bet.

Also, in fairness, the reason that Hillary's performance in IN was perceived as a loss was because the Prevailing and most relevant set of data showed that since mid-April she was more than 6-8 points AHEAD there, supplanting Obama's prediction of a 5 point win, which was predicted on data mined IN FEBRUARY.  Additionally, her camp was veeerrrrryyy confident about it over the weekend, creating a sense of suprise when Obama very nearly won it...and WOULD have won it had it not been for Fatty McCaveman.

I persoanlly hope that Hill will accpet the VP if it is offered to her.  I have always respected her (despite some of her campaigns tactics), and will continue to do so.  If they can get past their own hurts...they'd be unstopable.

by a gunslinger 2008-05-07 05:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Please Clinton people, you really have to let it go. It's over. We have a nominee. Now let's get to work to defeat McCain.  

by fugazi 2008-05-07 06:04PM | 0 recs
Why did Hillary lose nomination?

Should be the question that this diarist should ask.

The Clinton campaign (and everyone in America) predicted a blow out win for Hillary, but now she's behind in delegate #s.

Hillary was favored to win.  Her campaign people stated that they thought it would be all over after Big Tuesday.  

The answer to her lost is that Obama's camp ran a better campaign.  For example, look at his campaigns coffers.

Stop the delusion.  And don't put too much faith in the polls.  They've been wrong many times before.  Stop creating theorems.  

Look at the delegate #s instead.

by hienmango 2008-05-07 06:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Good Question:

Obama should have won!

Endorsements don't matter - it was just Clinton and Obama, two newcommers, political non entities who have no name recognition.

They started out "EVAN".

And Obama had more triple, and quadruple, the media "BAYH"s

Obama definitely should have won!

by benjaminsp 2008-05-07 07:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Brilliant post. You win.

by nwodtuhs 2008-05-07 07:44PM | 0 recs
Its Over, time to take on Senator McCain

The Delegate Counts:
PLEDGED: Obama 1,588-1,422
SUPERDELEGATES: Clinton 273.5-260
OVERALL: 1,848-1.695.5

If Florida and Michigan were seated as is and Obama got the uncommitted delegates in Michigan, Clinton would net an additional 32 delegates from Florida and 18 from Michigan -- for a total net of 50. So add those numbers into the current pledged delegate count and Obama still would lead in the pledged delegate count by more than 100, approximately 110 in fact. So let's use 110 as the baseline. For Clinton to overtake him in the pledged delegate lead using THEIR math on Florida and Michigan, she'd need to win 75% of all remaining delegates. That's an impossible task.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/default.a spx?p=2

by WellstoneDem 2008-05-07 07:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

The screaming "it's over, it's over" is reaching a crescendo. Well, the problem is that Obama supporters have been yelling that for a few months now and it hasn't worked. The problem is that the longer Hillary stays in the more of Obama's general election weaknesses start to appear.  Obama's problems are not due to Hillary, they are due to his own weaknesses.

by Ga6thDem 2008-05-07 08:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?
and the fact that she is losing by all considerable metrics is
also his fault gosh darn it!
by cherrygarcia 2008-05-07 08:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Are we done yet? You guys have been saying the same thing for months and she keeps winning primaries.

by Ga6thDem 2008-05-07 08:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

That is true.  It is also irrelevant.

by Mostly 2008-05-07 09:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Texasdarlin'... it'll be ok.

by mikeinsf 2008-05-07 08:25PM | 0 recs
It's over

To prevail at the convention, Clinton would have to convince superdelegates (and the broader public) that Obama is unelectable.  The hard truth is she lost the delegate race last February, but up until now there has always been some prospect that support for Obama might simply collapse (and not for good reasons--really, this prospect has always been linked to the fact that he's African American and our society still has a lot of pent-up racism).

Last night was significant because it showed that support for Obama is not going to collapse.  Because, c'mon, North Carolina and Indiana offered pretty good prospects (coming on top of the latest Wright salvo).  Put questions of favoritism aside, this, to me, occurred for some good reasons (voters who support Obama aren't fickle, they can distinguish between his views and the comments of his pastor, the right-wing noise machine didn't work this time, etc.).

I don't care if Clinton stays in the race through the end of June.  Obama will enter the general with strong organizations in all fifty states.  So long as things don't get ridiculous at the convention, the Dems should win this thing in November in a cakewalk (think money, organization, and a strong wind will make them invincible).

 

by IncognitoErgoSum 2008-05-07 08:43PM | 0 recs
Re: It's over

I wouldn't say things like "cakewalk" and "invincible" if you don't want to tempt fate.

by Montague 2008-05-07 08:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

by ragekage 2008-05-07 09:11PM | 0 recs
Here's why Obama lost Indiana

Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

If we ignore the Limbaugh factor, Obama lost Indiana because Indiana democrats, by a small margin, preferred Hillary Clinton.

Texas D - why don't you give your candidate a little credit? Did it ever occur to you that Indiana was won by votes FOR Hillary rather than votes AGAINST Obama? They're both good candidates, but you can only have one.

Just because these people chose Hillary over Obama doesn't mean they'll choose McCain over Obama especially after they have 6 more months to get to know Obama and realize that McCain is not quite the McCain they think he is.

by obsessed 2008-05-07 10:28PM | 0 recs
The way the expectations game works...

You're supposed to lower people's expectations BEFORE the election.  If you try to lower them afterwards, it doesn't work as well.

I don't think that Indiana changed anything yesterday, nor did NC really, that much.  It was perceptions.  The Clinton campaign was already all but over, but it was treated as if it was still a serious contender by the media.  Any pin prick to that illusory bubble meant that the difficulty of the delegate math suddenly became painfully obvious.  

It probably didn't help that McAuliffe went on all the networks to boast and thump his chest about how Hillary should get the nomination just for all the momentum she had created, regardless of the delegate math.  It raised expectations and put an additional burden on Clinton's performance, which they obviously overestimated.  Or they didn't prepare McAuliffe very well.

by Dumbo 2008-05-07 10:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Sorry Tex,

Can't get worked up about this anymore.
Let's go and clobber McCain.

Obama 2008

by hebi 2008-05-07 11:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Obama was favored to win Indiana all along.

Define "All Along."  Hillary led Obama in Indiana polling for the better part of the last year.  This would be like claiming "Obama was favored to win New Hampshire all along," just because he overtook her in polling there in the days leading up to the election.

The Obama campaign, by the way, is blaming his Indiana loss on Rush Limbaugh, but that's not supported by exit polls, which indicate that the percentage of Republicans who voted for Clinton was consistent with the share of Democrats who voted for her

You're ignoring part of the exit polls.  They also said that one in six of the Republicans who voted for Hillary had no intention of voting for her in the General if she won.

by TooFolkGR 2008-05-08 02:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

From the washington Post:

Republicans made up 10% of all Democratic voters in Indiana last night, their highest share of the electorate in any Democratic primary this year other than Mississippi.

Not only did Clinton win Republicans in Indiana by 8%, but about 60% of those who supported her in the primary said they would vote for McCain over Clinton in a hypothetical general election match-up. (Most Republicans voting for Obama said they would stick with him in the fall.)

There you go... so Clinton won with the republican votes of people that are going to vote McCain the the GE anyways... Nice.

by herenow 2008-05-08 08:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

I thought I was losing my once razor sharp mind. The Clinton people forget one thing, when intelligent people are told something, and then one week later told something else, we can always check facts. It's like checking to see if you got a male or female dog, it's an easy check, lift the tail, a check under the chasis, "viola" instant male or female. Well that's what the internet does, checking back, Hillary was the heavy favorite to win Indiana, and on this site all you idiots were predicting Indiana to be the springboard to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. What the Fuck happened?? Did you people have a memory loss,did a safe fall on your heads, or did you as your candidate says, "MISSPEAK. Obama may have "lost" Indiana but the margin of HRC victory was much less than predicted. This is why HRC is losing, she constantly turns double digit predictions into narrow wins, and single digit predictions into loses. What's her problem, well I just figured it out.I'm getting sick and tired of you Ham and Eggers backing a losing nag. She's a loser!!!!! Plain and simple.

by johnny sexton 2008-05-08 08:12AM | 0 recs
Clinton - the white choice

Sadly for her, America has given non-whites the right to vote.

by SunWolf78 2008-05-08 11:40AM | 0 recs
Meawhile, back in INDIANA....

Obama is only down 14,000+ votes now in IN.

Clinton: 644,594 (50.56%)
Obama: 630,399 (49.44%)

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primari es/results/state/#IN

Dewey Defeats Truman?

by Newcomer 2008-05-08 12:01PM | 0 recs

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