Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

It's projected that Hillary Clinton will have more popular votes than Barack Obama on June 3rd.  Some news organizations have already declared her the popular vote leader.  

Yet many party officials seem anxious to coronate Barack Obama prior to the Democratic convention.  They must have short memories, and have forgotten the sense of outrage and injustice we (the Democrats) experienced when Al Gore was robbed of his election mandate 8 years ago.

"Hillary Democrats" will feel aggrieved if the Superdelegates over-turn their votes.  It's naive to assume that they'll jump on the Unity Express to join forces against Republican enemies in November.  Millions of Democrats (and some others too) -- the majority of whom belong to that key demographic called women -- are already steaming mad at how Clinton is being treated by her colleagues, aided by a misogynist mass media.

As a reminder, Hillary Clinton has dedicated decades of her life to fighting for progressive causes and Democratic candidates.  She is a 2-term Senator from the 3rd largest state in the union, and a major voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee.  At the end of this primary process, she will have inspired nearly 20 million people to get out and vote for her.  Millions of them are just like me -- actively campaigning and donating for the first time in our lives.

Now, this takes nothing away from Senator Obama, as he has also inspired millions of people.  But he's getting the respect due from Democratic peers while Hillary Clinton -- champion of children and sick people and veterans and women -- is being treated like a nuisance. Some have even attacked her character and dignity, such as Obama surrogate Ted Kennedy who recently said that Clinton is not "in tune with...the nobler aspirations of the American people."

In the absence of a rational explanation for this abuse, millions of women (and men too) are fuming because, frankly, it reeks of good ole fashioned back-slapping sexism.  I'm not alone in wondering out loud whether a man in Clinton's position -- that is, a serious contender for the presidential nomination who has won swing states (most recently by 41%) and built a formidable coalition needed to win the White House -- would be taunted, ridiculed, and treated like an outcast.

As a woman who has been on the receiving end of double standards, and one who happens to believe that Hillary Clinton will be the best President of my lifetime, I want to urge Senator Clinton to take her campaign all the way to the convention floor.  By earning more than half the votes cast, she has every right to make her case directly to party representatives in the proper venue, and even a responsibility to the voters.

See, this is the way it is for Clinton supporters.  If you throw Hillary under the bus, we go with her.  And although our leader would be gracious in asking us to disregard the injustice, millions of "Hillary Democrats" will be unable to do so.  "Backlash" is a real social and psychological phenomenon.  Don't say I didn't warn you.

Note:  please don't shoot the messenger.



Cross posted at texasdarlin and Taylor Marsh

TexasDarlin, all rights reserved
Not affiliated with the Hillary Clinton campaign

Tags: convention floor, delegates, Democratic nomination, Hillary Clinton, Kentucky, leader, McCain Democrats, momentum, obama, Oregon, polls, popular vote, superdelegates, Voters, will of the people, winner, Women (all tags)

Comments

446 Comments

Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

It's not a beauty pageant.  We're electing a President.   To the convention, Democrats!

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-15 05:05PM | 0 recs
It sure isn't

that's why nobody will count FL and MI.  Sorry.

by JJE 2008-05-15 05:09PM | 0 recs
The Desperate Pushing Of Obama

I had a post on this but I'm going to turn it into a diary..

by architek 2008-05-16 03:56AM | 0 recs
is diary divisive?

wow.  it even includes threats.

I'm shocked at this diary's divisiveness!

by Al Rodgers 2008-05-15 05:12PM | 0 recs
Re: is diary divisive?

Agreed.

Are we going to see one of these every day until August?

by AK Democrat 2008-05-15 05:31PM | 0 recs
Re: is diary divisive?

Not exactly.  Soon the "delegates don't really vote until the convention" diaries will outnumber the "Hillary won the popular vote" diaries.

by map 2008-05-15 06:06PM | 0 recs
Re: is diary divisive?

Followed by the "Draft Hillary, even if she dropped out" diaries, and the "She suspended, she didn't drop out" diaries and the "If he doesn't pick Hillary for VP, I'm leaving the party" diaries.

Hopefully to be followed by the "I was wrong" diaries

by Lost Thought 2008-05-15 06:10PM | 0 recs
Re: is diary divisive?

At the risk of stating the obvious, I think the "I was wrong" diaries will be something we see in November, not necessarily sooner.

It's hard to say who will be writing them though.

;-)

by BPK80 2008-05-15 07:33PM | 0 recs
Re: is diary divisive?

We'll see those two years into a McCain presidency, assuming the Clinton cultists own up to what they did.

by Agent77 2008-05-15 08:32PM | 0 recs
Hillary caused McCain to beat Obama ? Racist!

She did it by being a far superior fit for the job of President.  Most of the primary voters, most of the Democrats how don't do primaries all agreed she would be so much better in the job that Obama lost.

Maybe the Obama people are so eager to end the campaign because they are noticing that his numbers are dropping, he does not have a broad enough coalition to be a winner and, oh yes, he has no experience and is tememperamentally totally unsuited to handle the respondibility of the Presidency and he cries 'racist' at every turn and always refuses to take responsibility for his mistakes but is very quick to take responsibility for others acheivements and ideas and speeches.  Start with his pre-law school "community organizer" job and google it.

Try to find an acomplishment he actually did the work for or contributed his dues to.  Maybe a lot of people are seeing this coming and really sorry he got such a good head start in the primaries.

 Can't imagine what anybody thought qualified him for President except his self annointing and the money.

by itsadryheat 2008-05-15 10:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary caused McCain to beat Obama ? Racist!

And all that money came from who?  Oh yes, millions of people who think he will be a good president.  Remind me how many thought Hillary would be so good that they bothered to donate to her?

by interestedbystander 2008-05-16 01:35AM | 0 recs
You mean the fabled 1.5 million donors?

Have you done any research on the investigation of the under $200 donors who don't have to be reported and who make up the bulk of Obama's  1.5 million 'donors'. Are you familiar with the way things are done with money in Chicago campaigns?  You might want to check out some of the articles in the Chicago press.  The Republicans already have.

Obama does have John Kerry's list of 3 million donors from the 2004 campaign and has been using it to "share" with friendly superdelegates as a reward.  But...nevermind.

If you are interested in the subject, start with the Sun-Times archives.  You can google Chicago Board Games or the current Fitzgerald Investigations on money and political coruption in Chicago involving Obama donors. Also the NY Times had a revealing summary piece July 30, 2007 on Obama in Chicago.  

by itsadryheat 2008-05-16 01:52AM | 0 recs
Re: You mean the fabled 1.5 million donors?

Is it possible for you to give him even the slightest credit for running an amazing fundraising machine - or must you smear every achievement?

by interestedbystander 2008-05-16 02:31AM | 0 recs
Re: You mean the fabled 1.5 million donors?

I vote for "must smear every achievement".  Honestly - popping over here from a link on the Big Orange is - alarming.  The logic being applied is illogical.

I"m in la-la land!!  Go Obama!

by RenaRF 2008-05-16 08:35AM | 0 recs
Re: You mean the fabled 1.5 million donors?

Can we have one diary on the rec list hat does not manage to have a comment that throws the city of Chicago under the bus...?  It really IS a nice town...

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-16 07:58PM | 0 recs
My kind of town, Chicago is. Wunnerful town!

by itsadryheat 2008-05-25 02:35PM | 0 recs
Right, cause it's always the bitches fault

When the inexperienced male novice fails.

by anna belle 2008-05-16 03:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Right, cause it's always the bitches fault

The political process starts with lots of Presidential hopefuls and winds its way to November when there are 2 candidates with a chance, 1 or more candidates with no chance, and ultimately a winner is determined.

Blame and credit are assigned willy nilly - and can be pretty much ignored because most are completely useless hysterical gum-flapping.

I will a while longer before I decide who's to blame for Hillary's failure to capitalize on her early inevitability.

by xdem 2008-05-16 07:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Right, cause it's always the bitches fault

yeah keep playing that pathetic card...go cry your tears at taylormarsh.

by RockvilleLiberal2 2008-05-16 08:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Right, cause it's always the bitches fault

I know gender-baiting when I see it.

And "bitches"?  Grow up.  If McCain wins it'll be the fault of the people who voted for him.  The diarist says a lot of people will do that as revenge against the voters.

It's not blaming Hillary.  It's quoting the diarist.

by Jess81 2008-05-16 03:04PM | 0 recs
Re: is diary divisive?

And, of course, the resident troll strikes again in all his divisive glory, complete with a picture of himself.

by pollbuster 2008-05-15 07:03PM | 0 recs
Michigan and Florida
"9/1/2007 - Clinton Campaign Statement on the Four State Pledge The following is a statement by Clinton Campaign Manager Patti Solis Doyle.
    "We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process. And we believe the DNC's rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role. Thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar.""
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/relea se/view/?id=3134


"You know, it's clear this election they're having isn't going to count for anything." [Hillary Clinton - NHPR Interview, 10/11/07]"
by Virginia Liberal 2008-05-15 05:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Michigan and Florida

God, shut up with these facts already.

by minnesotaryan 2008-05-15 05:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Michigan and Florida

Obama learned something from the MI/FL pledge signing that the candidates did.  He learned that you never, ever, ever trust Hillary Clinton.  She says one thing and does another, every f*ing time.  

Never trust her.  She'll keep insisting on changing the rules in this contest so that she comes out the winner, until the DNC puts a stop to it.

Someone at some point will have to tell the Clintons that they are no longer the center of the universe.  All the candidates knew the rules.  Obama was smart enough to win within the rules.  Hillary wasn't. It's as simple as that.

Hillary lost.  Obama won.  

by tibbs 2008-05-15 08:26PM | 0 recs
Maybe you should check what really happened.

by itsadryheat 2008-05-15 10:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Maybe you should check what really happened.

Here's what happened:

Clinton pledged to not participate, then she participated.
Then she claimed that those votes wouldn't count for anything, and now she's claiming that they did indeed count.
In the meantime she experienced sniper fire in Bosnia while being read a poem by a little girl.

Never trust a Clinton.

by Aris Katsaris 2008-05-16 02:51AM | 0 recs
Clinton did as agreed. Obama didn't.
Fundraising was allowed.  Press conferences and ads were not. Obama ran ads for two weeks in both states and held at least one press conference when HE was in FL fundraising.  They also ran a campaign to get voters out in MI to vote uncommitted..a pr campaign.
Hillary didn't speak to
Floridians till the primary was closed.  Violation fo this agree was supposed to cause the violator to forfit his delegates won in the primary.  When will we see that honored?
by itsadryheat 2008-05-25 02:44PM | 0 recs
[citation needed]

"Some news organizations have already declared her the popular vote leader."

Such as?

by Shem 2008-05-15 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: [citation needed]

Skywatch Media [pretty big snark]

by minnesotaryan 2008-05-15 05:51PM | 0 recs
Re: [citation needed]

Nice....You nailed that one!

by WashStateBlue 2008-05-15 07:45PM | 0 recs
Re: [citation needed]

The Twilight Zone Gazette?

by toyomama 2008-05-15 06:26PM | 0 recs
Re: [citation needed]

The EIB Network?

by Agent77 2008-05-15 08:33PM | 0 recs
Re: [citation needed]

taylormarsh.com

by N in Seattle 2008-05-15 08:36PM | 0 recs
ABC News

by itsadryheat 2008-05-15 10:32PM | 0 recs
Because that's easily verifiable

Oops. Even ABC knows to break out the MI/FL vote since it has yet to be deemed a legitimate vote.

Photobucket

by bookish 2008-05-16 06:27AM | 0 recs
How can you count ZERO FOR OBAMA???

How can you count ZERO VOTES FOR OBAMA in MI?

TexasDarlin - you are making me rip my hair out by the roots! How can you POSSIBLY make an argument based on the "popular vote total" when you're counting ZERO VOTES for Obama?

Have you no shame?

by obsessed 2008-05-16 12:57PM | 0 recs
Re: How can you count ZERO FOR OBAMA???

When one is desperate, they grasp at Desperate straws.  And I wonder if those numbers include Caucuses.  

You don't want to count Causues or give Obama his extrapolated share in Mich, then fine?  But then we don't count contests where they both didn't campaign... OOOPS YOU LOSE!

by yitbos96bb 2008-05-16 03:48PM | 0 recs
Oh, and their count

doesn't include the "disenfranchised" caucus voters in four states.

by bookish 2008-05-16 06:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh, and their count

Nor the "disenfranchised" 40% in Michigan.

by Texas Gray Wolf 2008-05-16 10:08AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I'm sorry to break it to you, but West Virginia is NOT a "swing state".

The latest poll I saw of WV had McCain leading Hillary there by 14 points or something like that. Which is another reason why the Electoral Vote counter on the front page is wrong, btw.

by Deano963 2008-05-15 05:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

post the link. WV is actually a Democratic state.

by indydem99 2008-05-15 06:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

NOT at the Presidential level. Sorry to burst your Hillary-bubble. It is not a state a Democrat needs to carry to win the White House. Just b/c Bill Clinton won it in '92 and '96 dosent mean he NEEDED it to win. Kerry could have won it in '04 and it wouldnt have made a difference.

All of the Hillary supporters conveniently overlook that fact.

by Deano963 2008-05-15 08:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Not a swing state...
It went blue in '88, '92, and '96!

Plus; most recent poll show Hillary beating McCain by 5% and McCain beating Obama by 19%

Read and weep
http://www.270towin.com/states/west+virg inia

by LDFan 2008-05-15 06:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Oh where oh where can Obama make up those 5 electoral votes... Well there is Missouri, Nebraska, Virginia, Colorado, New Mexico, etc.

Not to mention Hillary is flirting with losing Washington a state worth more than twice West Virginia.  

You can treat WV as the end all and be all but Obama's map is much different than Hillary's, there are many states he is competitive in that she doesn't have a hope in hell of getting.  

Hillary may need WV to win the nomination but Obama has many more options in play.

by matchles 2008-05-15 09:31PM | 0 recs
Your "most recent poll"

was taken in February. I'm not sure it qualifies as up to date.

by bookish 2008-05-16 06:31AM | 0 recs
Yes, it is a swing state

You just have to know the history of the state in pres. elections.  Also note: a Dem governor, two Dem senators, two out of three Dems in House.  Most certainly a swing state and we should be able to compete there.

by Thaddeus 2008-05-15 06:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, it is a swing state

Just like Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, Wisonsin, Maine and even MAryland are'nt swing states with Hillary.

With Obama they are solid Dem.

Just like Iowa, New Mexico, Nevada, and Colorado are leadn dem with Obama.

With Hillary they are lean McCain.

She's a weak GE candidate.

by Deano963 2008-05-15 08:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, it is a swing state

Not that it matters with Obama already heaving the nomination wrapped up but both candidates are running about equal in GE electability.

So lets stop this non debate from both sides.

by Ernst 2008-05-16 02:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, it is a swing state

Actually, having both of them in makes those polls absolutely useless.  Unless you could find a sufficient poll sample for each candidate that was amnesiacally unaware of the other candidate.

I'm just sayin; as long as people perceive another option (dem candidate) the sample is skewed.

by steampunkx 2008-05-16 04:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, it is a swing state

No not really. We know what percentage is influenced by that. And as both candidates suffer from roughly the same bias it doesn't affect their relative electability compared to each other.

by Ernst 2008-05-16 04:46AM | 0 recs
A bet then!

Ernst,

Tell you what, once (say October?) we have a single nominee, let's see what happens to those comparability numbers.

Then you and I can compare our polling techniques.  That sounds so wrong.

by steampunkx 2008-05-17 02:07PM | 0 recs
Re: A bet then!

I'm sorry for my lack of comprehension, currently I can't make head or tails of your comment.

Of course they will chance quite drastically once we have a single nominee as one will have won and continue campaigning and the other will have lost and will stop campaigning. Both winning and losing effect the numbers as does whether or not you are in the race at all.

Your comment right now seems to be that a candidate that would be actually in the race would stand a better chance to be elected then a person that isn't a candidate? That seems rather obvious and well, irrelevant to the discussion we were having, namely that Clinton and Obama were running about equally in the general match up when that the situation was equal.

(not anymore though, now that more and more people have recognized that Obama has clinched the nomination and that Clinton is not going to be on the ballot in November.)

The only way we could measure their general performance after a single nominee has been chosen if both were in the same situation. That can't happen without a universe safe function that would allow us to let both candidates run against mcCain as a single nominee.

Could you explain what you did try to get across? Because this is all so generally know that I don't believe you could mean this.

by Ernst 2008-05-17 04:33PM | 0 recs
Re: A bet then!

My original and, if you follow my comments around the nets, constant position is that head-to-head polls are useless when one nominee is still contested.  Until that is settled, and the public has time to absorb it, you will get false results.

It annoys me when activists of ALL stripes use these as evidence of, well, anything but what the results are, without predictive power.

by steampunkx 2008-05-18 04:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, it is a swing state

Good call!

by yitbos96bb 2008-05-16 04:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Let's do it 1980 Ted Kennedy style...open rule motion!

by Caldonia 2008-05-15 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

yes, that's a great idea--considering that neither Kennedy nor Carter nor any other Democrat won the GE that year.

by 2501 2008-05-15 10:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

So are we going to again have a member of a powerful Democratic family go "to the Floor!" and thereby make sure we elect a very old Republican?

by Texas Gray Wolf 2008-05-16 10:17AM | 0 recs
Delusional much?

Current standings. Apologies for the formatting, but I'd rather put this out there in the clear, as I'm surprised no one else has.

Popular Vote Total   
Obama +593,610    +1.8%

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA*
Obama +703,832    +2.1%

Popular Vote (w/FL)       
Obama +298,838    +0.8%

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA*             Obama +409,060    +1.2%

Popular Vote (w/FL & MI)*            Clinton +29,471    +0.08%

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA
Obama +80,751    +0.22%

Source: realclearpolitics.com

Delegates:    Pledged    Super    Total    Needed
Obama    1,601.5    291.5    1,893        132
Clinton    1,444.5    271.5    1,716            309

Source: demconwatch (via great satan)

by kyle in philly 2008-05-15 07:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Delusional much?

But as we all know it is much more important to include a state where one of the competitors wasn't on the ballot than include those that don't tally a popular vote.  Haven't you heard of the "46 state + Puerto Rico" strategy?

by matchles 2008-05-15 09:35PM | 0 recs
McCain removes name from MI ballot?

I don't understand how anyone thinks counting MI in the popular vote is helpful.  Since the nomination process is a race for delegates, the popular vote is only useful as a guide to the superdelegates in determining that all important 'electability'.  The current MI results are only useful in that regard if we can convince McCain to keep his name off the ballot in November.  Then there is the whole ambiguity around caucus states and what sort of popular vote there 'might' have been if they had primaries instead.

Here is an interesting experiment... take the percentage difference in the caucus vs primary results in Texas.  Now apply that same adjustment to the percentage results from all the caucus states and multiply by the projected turnout in each state if they had gone with primaries.  Guess what happens to Obama's popular vote lead.  IT GOES UP.  Is that what really would have happened if primaries had been the norm? Nobody knows for certain.  In essence, it means the popular vote is pretty much useless in determining 'electability' or the will of the people.

by protothad 2008-05-16 08:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Delusional much?

So, is it safe to assume that in this formula that includes Michigan that Obama gets zero votes since his name wasn't on the ballot?

So, since their were four candidates that removed their names from the ballot in Michigan (Obama, Richardson, Biden, and Edwards), let's, for the sake of argument give each candidate 1/4 of the "uncommitted" popular vote (even though everyone in their right mind knows Obama was the intended recipient of more than 25% of the "uncommitted" vote).

238,168 people voted uncommitted in Michigan.  Divide that by four, and you've got 59,542.

Add that on to Obama's popular vote count "including Michigan," and here are the totals:

Obama - 16,740,369
Clinton - 16,710,298   

Sorry folks, no matter which way you slice it, Obama is winning.

by doschi 2008-05-15 09:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Delusional much?

It should also be noted that this does not include the estimated popular vote totals of Iowa, Nevada, Maine, and Washington.

When those totals are included and Obama STILL receives ZERO votes from Michigan, he is leading by 80,751.

Add on 1/4 of those uncommitteds, and we're talking a 140,293 vote lead for Obama.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/democratic_vote_count.htm l

by doschi 2008-05-15 09:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Delusional much?

Didn't the exit polls say he would have gotten a third of the total vote?

So the estimate would increase to well above 200.000.

Obama is winning according to all the metrics.

by Ernst 2008-05-16 03:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!
Cross posted at:
http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread.php? forumid=154972&threadid=1838439
by pollbuster 2008-05-15 07:28PM | 0 recs
And the only winning Dem in 30 years picks Hillary

by itsadryheat 2008-05-15 10:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Also - most of the losing former Dem presidential candidates are supporting Obama.
McGovern, Carter, Kennedy, Mondale, Dukakis, Kerry, Edwards....great lineup of losers - also backed by the Washington establishment.

Well, at least those folks won the Democratic Primary.....

by RP McMurphy 2008-05-16 02:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Maybe that goes to show that being the party's nominee doesn't necessarily mean that they are the most likely to win the G/E - And in the end that is what really matters longterm, isn't it now?

by jrsygrl 2008-05-17 10:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Each and every one of those is worthy of enormous respect.

We might want that they were worthy of even more respect as ex-presidents instead of ex-nominees, but every one of those is a good Democrat that tried to improve this country.

Lost they may have, losers they aren't.

by Ernst 2008-05-16 03:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

 What will the Clinton supporters say if their leader bows out? Will they attack her as they have everyone else who has smelled the coffee?

by xdem 2008-05-16 07:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Hi, TD.

You write:

'"Hillary Democrats" will feel aggrieved if the Superdelegates over-turn their votes."

And yet, a few short months ago, when it seemed as if superdelegates would be Clinton's only path to the nomination, you wrote:

"But there's more good news for Clinton:  Many of those same party leaders acknowledge that their duty as super delegates is to exercise independent judgment."

So superdelegates overturning the will of the voters by exercising their independent judgment is okay when it helps your candidate, right?

Here's the cite:

http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/04 03/hillarys-winning-coalition-mydd-reco mmended-list-selected-for-hillaryhubcom

Enjoy the day,
--Koan

by Koan 2008-05-16 11:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Ooh, here's an even better one, giddy about the prospects of SD's overturning the will of voters!  Note how excited you were at the idea of having Brazile in your camp, too.  

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/04/28/ brazile-for-hillary/

Cheers.

by Koan 2008-05-16 11:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Texas Darlin for Secretary of Defense!

by dawolfe 2008-05-16 01:00PM | 0 recs
Please send this diary to USDs!

If there's one thing that gets them endorsing Obama, it's H44esque threats of sedition!

by Firewall 2008-05-15 05:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Please send this diary to USDs!

I actually meant secession, but what the hey, sedition works too!

by Firewall 2008-05-15 05:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Please send this

democracy isn't for wusses.  We'll see if this sends a groundswell of super's to your guy, otherwise, you'll be proven wrong. they're waiting cause they want to make sure the one they back will win the GE and take the house with her or him. She's clearly a winner in the GE, but he might get his momentum back, it isn't so likely but it's still possible. he needs to debate her again.  

by anna shane 2008-05-15 05:09PM | 0 recs
Clear GE winner

You can keep saying that, but it won't make it true.  The supers haven't bought it for months.  Why would they buy it now, especially when O is about to get a double-digit win in Oregon, an actual swing state?

by JJE 2008-05-15 05:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Clear GE winner

Dude, Clinton is only down by like 12 to McCain in Kentucky!  Total swing state.

by minnesotaryan 2008-05-15 05:53PM | 0 recs
And don't forget Arkansas!

by JJE 2008-05-15 05:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Please send this

The supers have been endorsing Obama to Clinton at a 3+ to 1 ratio for the past month. This isn't golf; the candidate with the fewest delegates doesn't get the nomination.

And Obama's got as much reason to debate Clinton as McCain has to debate Huckabee at this point.

by Firewall 2008-05-15 05:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Please send this

Obama's gotten 35.5 SDs since IN/NC...Hillary's gotten 1.5.

by terra 2008-05-15 05:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Please send this

If Obama loses 10% Democrats he would lose in a landslide to McCain. You better quit comparing Hillary to Huckabee.

by indydem99 2008-05-15 06:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Please send this

Gore lost 11% of Democrats to Bush. Kerry lost 11% of Democrats to Bush. Those elections were not landslides

Given that there are way more Democrats than Republicans this cycle, if Obama loses 10% of Democrats to McCain, there will be a landslide but it will be in Obama's favor.

by DesideriusErasmus 2008-05-16 11:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Please send this

ho, ho, ho.....Barry won't go to another debate.  Questions bore him.  And he can't smoke.

by Tolstoy 2008-05-15 05:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Please send this

Of course he won't do another debate. He's way ahead and has money and his opponent is broke and far behind.  When has there ever been an agreement to debate in similar circumstances?  Hillary certainly didn't debate when she was in the same place in the NY Senate races over her weaker, more poorly financed opponent.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 05:21PM | 0 recs
Hillary's broke? Um last time I checked she

had over 100 million in the bank. Obama's 30 million cash on hand is peanuts

by 79blondini 2008-05-15 07:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary's broke? Um last time I checked she

We're talking campaign cash here.  Please try to keep up.

by doschi 2008-05-15 10:17PM | 0 recs
Oh, good

then I hope this means she won't be asking Obama supporters to pony up and cover her personal debt after May 30.

by bookish 2008-05-16 06:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Please send this

Your lame attempt at humor bores me.

by The Distillery 2008-05-15 06:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Please send this

I know... Even Hillary debated her Senate primary opponent Tasini when it was clear he couldn't beat her...

didn't she?

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-15 07:57PM | 0 recs
groundswell?

Obama gained 13 delegates today. 4 supers and 9 pledged. Hillary lost 1.

by Travis Stark 2008-05-15 05:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Please send this

I think it is much more likely that they are waiting to a) allow all states to vote rather than stopping at 45 (or whatever we are at now), and b) to avoid the appearance of pushing Hillary out the door.

by ProgressiveDL 2008-05-15 06:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Please send this

It's all over but the crying. And boy, what a flood of tears.

by Rationalisto 2008-05-15 09:19PM | 0 recs
Earth to Anna

It's over.

O
V
E
R

by Black Anus 2008-05-15 09:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Please send this

Have you checked the head-to-head polls lately?  He's surging ahead of Hillary and McCain.  And he's releasing a handful of supers a day - releasing as in they have privately committed to Obama and he's feeding them to the media on his own terms.

by interestedbystander 2008-05-16 01:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

It's over, let's get behind Obama

by Bargeron 2008-05-15 05:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

it is, then why haven't the deciding super's declared? Oh, yeah, it isn't over. Even Barack says it isn't over, and he's wanting you guys to tone it down, didn't you hear?  

by anna shane 2008-05-15 05:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

The race is not "over", but the outcome is known.

Obama and most supers are posturing for the best way to declare victory. Some ways are more likely to bring the party together (not forcing Clinton out) and not embarrass Obama (like declaring before WV).

Also, it doesn't hurt at this point to let the voting play out, so I wouldn't be too surprised if Obama doesn't declare victory until after June 3rd.

by gcensr 2008-05-15 05:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I heard that too.  Say it's not so. And say  say he hasn't actually hired 400 bloggers to kiss up to Hilaary supporters.  Yuck.  I can just see those diaries:  "Dear Sweeties..................."

by Tolstoy 2008-05-15 05:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Obama doesn't need to hire any bloggers. He has over a million of half people who have taken their money and sent it to him. They are highly motivated and blog on their own.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 05:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Hey, I only know what they say on TV.  I heard he hired 400 bloggers.  And no, I'm not going to find a link for you.  If  you're interested you can look it up yourself.

by Tolstoy 2008-05-15 05:40PM | 0 recs
You can't link because it's not true

The story exists on Taylor Marsh and HillBuzz, but nowhere in reality.

by Travis Stark 2008-05-15 05:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

You can't look things up that don't exist.

I think there's a Zen koan about that.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 05:46PM | 0 recs
The sound of one hand typing

If a non-existent blogger is typing in the woods and no one is there to hear it, is there a noise?

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-15 05:58PM | 0 recs
There sure is

it goes "fap fap fap fap fap"

by JJE 2008-05-15 06:00PM | 0 recs
Re: There sure is

Is that the sound of the black helicopters I used to hear about?

by zadura 2008-05-15 06:57PM | 0 recs
Guess what I heard?

I heard he kicks grandmothers down the stairs and punches babies in the face in his free time.  No, I'm not going to give you a source.  If you're interested you can find it yourself.

by JJE 2008-05-15 05:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Guess what I heard?

I thought grandmothers went under the bus?

by CrazyDrumGuy 2008-05-15 09:32PM | 0 recs
Yes, after he snipes them

"thp" "thp" "thp"

by KLRinLA 2008-05-15 10:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I would stop promoting this lie if I were you - even the mighty Alegra has been forced to delete the smear from her diary.  So either prove it or shut the fuck up.

by interestedbystander 2008-05-16 02:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

you do not seem to understand the dynamics of a GE. Obama needs all the supporters of Hillary. If he loses even 5% it is all over for Obama. How close do you think the GE is going to be in the swing states.  

by indydem99 2008-05-15 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I thought you said 10% earlier..

by hootie4170 2008-05-15 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Anywhere from 5 to 10. As Hillary says "What ever our diffrences are they are nothing compared to the Republicans"

by indydem99 2008-05-16 03:33AM | 0 recs
If the only thing Obama can do to gain...

Hillary supporters is to give the nomination to her, then I fail to see how that helps his chances in November.

We're all willing to let this play out to June 3, and Obama supporters, for the most part, have been as welcoming to Clinton supporters as possible, and will continue to be so. But if the argument is a convention debacle that loses us the election, or threats of tantrums, then there really is no arguing with that is there. Hopefully, there are enough people in the party who care about the principles that both Hillary and Obama have fought for and will vote for the Democratic nominee. If not, we'll have a President McCain and at least 4 more effective years of the Bush administration.

by Travis Stark 2008-05-15 07:19PM | 0 recs
Not having a qualified nominee might lose it, but

not a convention fight!  The convention was designed to be the place a nominee was chosen.

 It's in the RULES!

by itsadryheat 2008-05-15 10:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Not having a qualified nominee might lose it,

Last I checked, the nominee was chosen during the primaries and caucuses, and then formalized during the convention. All a fight at the convention will do is keep us mad at each other longer, and give Clinton supporters more motivation to vote McCain. How can you pretend that's worth it?

by Okamifujutsu 2008-05-16 12:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Not having a qualified nominee might lose it,

So your saying that the activities of the Convention are no more than a formality?

by devoted1 2008-05-16 12:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Not having a qualified nominee might lose it,

Yes, that's exactly what they are.

by amiches 2008-05-17 04:38AM | 0 recs
The votes, remember? It's where they count them!

by itsadryheat 2008-05-16 12:51AM | 0 recs
No. The convention, this year, was designed to be

a big advertisement for the nominee and the party. That's why Terry McCauliffe and others put in 8 weeks before the election. That's why they put a two month gap between the last contest and the convention. It wasn't so that we could have uncertainty and divisiveness all summer and then a huge bloody fight in August leaving us wounded and weakened to fight McCain for a few weeks and lose.

by Travis Stark 2008-05-16 03:21AM | 0 recs
Actually they said it was because the

Republicans got all the great press for their convention right before elections and the money for the general had to last the dems a lot longer because the time between convention and election was so long.

by itsadryheat 2008-05-25 02:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!
This is the second time I've seen you post this comment.  Either post the source, or admit it's not true.
 If Hillary can beat Obama on issues, facts, or in delegates, then fine.  If you have to lie about Obama to beat him, then tell me what the difference is between you and a Republican.
by haremoor 2008-05-15 08:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

You're right; it isn't over.

But there are 45 seconds to go, Clinton is down by two touchdowns, and Obama has the ball.  All he has to do is take a couple of knees and run out the clock.  Technically the game isn't over, but that doesn't mean we don't all know who's going to win.

by mistersite 2008-05-15 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

If obama wants to win the GE he better get Hillary's voters even if he loses a small percentage it is all over for Obama.

by indydem99 2008-05-15 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

That's funny, because all the national polls have him leading McCain pretty healthily - at the very moment when Clinton's voters are most likely to say they won't vote for him.

If Clinton's voters care in the slightest about the things Hillary Clinton stands for, they won't betray her by not voting or voting for McCain.  She's urged her supporters to vote for the Democratic nominee and promised to work her heart out for him/her; I would hope that her supporters are mature enough to see the issues at stake and follow her lead.

by mistersite 2008-05-15 06:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I hope so too.

by indydem99 2008-05-15 06:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!
Geeze, indydem, will you please stop with the threats about Hillary supporters in the GE?
Supporters of Senator Clinton are not the petulant children you're hoping they'll be.
by toyomama 2008-05-15 06:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I think the correct term would be marginally leading McCain & Clinton's lead is larger. Funny for someone so out of the mainstream, alot of the big DLC players have tripped over themselves getting behind Obama.  That generally doesn't happen for the person who is outside the fringe of party politics. Usually they have difficulty mustering party support & are called things like a "spoiler" or "divisive" or urged to stop pursuing their objectives.  Gosh when it is put that way it sounds like a completely different candidate could be considered outside the fringe of DLC politics.  

by jrsygrl 2008-05-17 11:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Jesus, which is it? 10%? 5%? a Small Percent?

Which is it?

You don't know, NO ONE KNOWS?

Besides, Indy, you KNOW there is nothing Obama can say, do, write, speak, to make ANY OF YOU happy right now?

So, right now, his job is to soldify the party around him and keep moving forward?

How Senator Clinton ends her campaign is up to her?

After Oregon, and they settle MI and FL, she will have a decision to make?

Go to the convention, and TRY to fight it out?

Which will destroy her career, and ASSURE that if, as you all think Obama loses to McCain, she is persona non gratis in 2012?

Think about it?

Her BEST strategy is, to make peace, and LET HIM LOSE, RIGHT?

That's what you all want? Hillary in 2012?

The only problem is...

He is going to win.

by WashStateBlue 2008-05-15 07:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Only two?  I think the analogy is that Bill Belecheck (sp?) has already left the field.

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-15 08:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I don't like those sport analogies people keep using to describe the nomination because according to those Obama is always way ahead and has completely trampled Clinton.

But in reality Clinton isn't down "by two touchdowns" or 8 homeruns etc. This is the closest primary ever, Obama's lead is the slimmest possible. It's just that there is no way to catch up.

There simply is no sport that allows for a really small lead that cannot be overcome.

by Ernst 2008-05-16 03:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Football: Obama is up by three with 10 seconds left, has the ball, and only needs to take a knee to win. As long as he doesn't fumble while taking the knee, he'll win.

Basketball: Obama is up by two with one second left and is dribbling on his side of the court. All Hillary can do is intentionally foul right now, and even if he somehow blows both freethrows, it's not feasible that Hillary will have the time or luck to launch a full court shot to win.

Baseball: Top of the ninth, one run up, two outs Hillary is at bat, and grounded the ball to first. All Obama has to do is field the ground ball and step on the plate to win.

Hockey: Up by one, 3 seconds left, Obama's team has a power play and is skating on Hillary's side of the ice with the puck. She took her goalie out and has five guys on the ice, but to tie, she has to stop Obama's team from launching the puck into the empty net and somehow steal the puck and launch a shot from center ice, and then win in a shootout/OT.

by pacopoolio 2008-05-16 05:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

except that these all depend on time and lack of opportunity to limit the comeback. Seeing that the same situation has lasted for the last quarter/couple of innings already...

With the current delegate system we really need to have a sport where both sides score at the same time...

by Ernst 2008-05-16 06:56AM | 0 recs
They are deciding, aren't they?

Add 34 for Obama in the last week. He's gotten 43 since IN/NC. With defections, Clinton nets 3 during that period. That's a +40 for Obama, or the equivalent of winning WV by 100%-0% (plus an add-on for good measure).

by bookish 2008-05-16 06:47AM | 0 recs
Can he finish what he starts for once?

It's not quite over. Maybe Mr. Upstart could actually finish his run for the nomination, unlike he finished his first and only Senate term.

by catfish1 2008-05-16 01:49AM | 0 recs
Which news organizations

have declared her the popular vote leader?

Who projects her to even win the popular vote?

Links?

by Lost Thought 2008-05-15 05:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Which news organizations

ABC?  

by anna shane 2008-05-15 05:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Which news organizations

Link? Because this is news to me if they did

by Lost Thought 2008-05-15 05:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Which news organizations

http://abcnews.go.com/politics

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-15 05:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Which news organizations

That isn't a useful link, dingdong.

by mydoubleds 2008-05-15 05:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Which news organizations

They have a count, which under certain absurd assumptions, currently lists her as leading in the popular vote. Even if I grant that count as valid, that is distinctly not what you said in the diary.

Update the diary to be accurate or provide a link for this statement

It's projected that Hillary Clinton will have more popular votes than Barack Obama on June 3rd. Some news organizations have already declared her the popular vote leader.

by Lost Thought 2008-05-15 05:30PM | 0 recs
Specific link?

Y'know, to an actual statement or article?  If you'd be so kind?

by Shem 2008-05-15 05:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Which news organizations

looks like she is down by around 600,000 to me.

by netgui68 2008-05-15 06:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Which news organizations

Wow - useful link...sort of like the one to your craptastic blog...grats.

by RockvilleLiberal2 2008-05-15 06:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Which news organizations

Again with the popular vote meme?  

Look at it this way:  If the Patriots had more yards total offense in the last Superbowl (a significant chunk of which from penalties), did the Giants lose the game?  Of course not--it's all about the points on the scoreboard.

In presidential primaries, delegates are points.  At the end of the game, they're the only statistic that matters.

By the by, for those who think that the popular vote total will have any significant sway with Supers, you should check out this fact filled site.

by fogiv 2008-05-15 07:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Which news organizations

Yeah, if you give Obama ZERO votes in Michigan?

A state in the current polling HE NOW LEADS?

I prefer my elections US style, not Soviet Union circa 1948, when only ONE candidate is on the ballot...

by WashStateBlue 2008-05-15 08:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Which news organizations

All I see at that link is "Florida, Michigan Cannot Save Clinton". Is that what you meant?

by lexluthor 2008-05-16 08:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Which news organizations

Anna doesn't need any silly vote totals, she just KNOWS Hillary is going to win.

by interestedbystander 2008-05-16 02:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Which news organizations

Depending on the relative turn out and the margins of victory in OR versus KY, as well as PR, and depending on how you treat MI and FL, then it's possible she'll end up the popular vote leader.

by TCQuad 2008-05-15 05:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Which news organizations

Possible theory != News organizations declaring her the winner

by Lost Thought 2008-05-15 05:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Which news organizations

Well, a week ago Russert declared Obama the winner and no Obamoton questioned that.

by Tolstoy 2008-05-15 05:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Which news organizations

That's cuz 1+1=2 no matter who says it.

by Firewall 2008-05-15 05:44PM | 0 recs
Does this include states that held caucuses?

So we are to count MI and FL but not Alaska, Colorado, Idaho, Kansas, Minnesota, North Dakota, Iowa, Nevada, Nebraska, Washington, Maine, Wyoming, Hawaii, Montana, District of Columbia, American Somoa... How stupid do you think we are?

by grasshopper 2008-05-15 08:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Sorry. But you don't speak for Hillary's supporters.

by fugazi 2008-05-15 05:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

but, quite a few?  

by anna shane 2008-05-15 05:13PM | 0 recs
Just one

She'll suspend her campaign sometime in June.  She's  smart and gracious and thus knows this convention talk is nonsense.

by JJE 2008-05-15 05:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

No, a very, very small number of diehards.  Please realise that only a tiny proportion of Hillary supporters read blogs - how many do we have here at MyDD, 30 or so?  Of which, only about 10 are diehard delusional Alegra, TD types.  The vast majority of Hillary supporters will be disappointed when she concedes in a couple of week, but they will be over it in time to vote for Obama in the GE.  The polls are alrteady showing this, with Obama receiving a bump as it becomes obvious the race is over.

by interestedbystander 2008-05-16 02:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Hillary will not have the lead in popular votes because you cannot count Michigan because Obama was not even on the ballot.  And nobody is talking about it except Clintonistas.  So there you go.

by Spanky 2008-05-15 05:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Obama voluntarily took his name of the ballot for political purposes in Iowa, as you know.  It was a strategic error he'll have to live with.

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-15 05:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Hahahaha. He'll have to live with. Like YOU have say over ANYTHING.

Al Gore and Bill Bradley also took their names off the MI ballot in 2000 because of the same reason Obama and Edwards did.

The DNC isn't made up of people who don't know the rules so this delusional flailing about is just sad.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-15 05:35PM | 0 recs
So did every other candidate but yours

Most other candidates believe in keeping to their agreement that Michigan would not count...some people seen to lose all honor and dignity when the chips are down.

by netgui68 2008-05-15 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

MI voluntarily moved their primary up and thus made their delegates null. It was a strategic error they'll have to live with.

by Zotnix 2008-05-15 09:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

If the SD's cared about this, they could just factor in the numbers when making their decision on who to endorse - they don't need to wait for the DNC to decide MI and FL for them.  Same with popular vote tallies.  They have done so already, they are endorsing Obama in overwhelming numbers.

by interestedbystander 2008-05-16 02:46AM | 0 recs
Let's see where we are on May 30

The RBC will make their judgment on MI/FL on May 31. It's looking more and more like Obama will have crossed the 2025 threshold before then, thus giving him the right to declare victory under the standing rules. Do you really think that after he's won according to those rules that the DNC members are going to turn around and change the rules  to take the nomination away from him? Not a chance.

by bookish 2008-05-16 07:02AM | 0 recs
they were throwing rotten fruit at him

Didn't you see that hostile crowd during the Edwards endorsement in Grand Rapids yesterday?

He has totally lost Michigan for November.

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-15 06:00PM | 0 recs
Re: they were throwing rotten fruit at him

All I can say is that the Obama campaign is absolutely brilliant.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 06:13PM | 0 recs
Re: they were throwing rotten fruit at him

Hostile to Hillary.  Was that boos we heard? - such a class act by Obama supporters!

by mcctx 2008-05-15 06:30PM | 0 recs
Re: they were throwing rotten fruit at him

Yes, Booing...

Wasn't that strange?

You Clinton supporters have been telling us FOR WEEKS they hate Obama for disenfranchising them?

Maybe they don't agree with you so much?

(pssssttt...Obama is leading in Michigan polling now....that is how much they are made at him for disenfranchising them....)

by WashStateBlue 2008-05-15 08:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

It's getting to the point where you don't even need to count Michigan.  West Virginia was bigger than anyone anticipated: 146,000.  Given that turnout is still high in that area of the contry and Kentucky has three times as many registered Democrats...

Even with a smaller spread (30% instead of 41%), Kentucky is a PV bonanza for Clinton.  Oregon, by contrast, is expected to be a much narrower Obama lead and it has only half the amount of registered Dems.

Oregon: Obama +50,000
Kentucky: Clinton +275,000

by BPK80 2008-05-15 08:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

"Oregon, by contrast, is expected to be a much narrower Obama lead and it has only half the amount of registered Dems.

Oregon: Obama +50,000
Kentucky: Clinton +275,000"

So, are YOU going to show up here the Night of Oregon to back up those numbers?

Cause, ain't going down that way, from out here in the PNW!

by WashStateBlue 2008-05-15 08:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I will.

I think they're pretty conservative.  Both states use closed primaries.  

Oregon: 800,000 registered Dems.

Turnout = ?

50% (high) would be 400,000 votes.

10% spread = 40,000.  Generously added 10,000 votes.  

Kentucky: 1.6 million registered Dems.

Turnout = ?

50% like West Virginia would be 800,000

32% spread = 288,000  Conservatively subtracted 13,000 votes.

by BPK80 2008-05-15 09:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I respect the heck out of HRC, but Obama is the nominee and she will be a very strong advocate for his candidacy.

by Pat Flatley 2008-05-15 05:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

will you feel crushed when she wins the nom?  It isn't over, don't declare it so, it's bad karma.  

by anna shane 2008-05-15 05:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

You now know exactly what it's like when Republicans suggest that Iraq is going well.  I know you're well-meaning and passionate about Hillary, but it's time this was a reality-based community.  Iraq was a mistake, and Barack Obama is the nominee.  These are two facts.

by Pat Flatley 2008-05-15 05:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Do you honestly believe that she is going to win the nomination at this point?  Truthfully?  If so, you are quite an optimist.  It isn't impossible, I suppose.  But it's about .001%.

by ProgressiveDL 2008-05-15 06:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

By your logic we shouldn't refer to McCain as the nominee yet either because it isn't official yet.  

by fugazi 2008-05-15 05:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

You know the media must hate people from Arkansas...just look at the way they're ignoring Mike Huckabee. They've still got five states to go, and no one votes until the convention... HE COULD STILL WIN.

Shame on the media for declaring the race over for the Huckster.

by Tatan 2008-05-15 05:24PM | 0 recs
Re: "We go with her."

I'm with you -- and her too.  

by moevaughn 2008-05-15 05:10PM | 0 recs
Re: "We go with her."

seconded!

by canadian gal 2008-05-15 05:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

TD, it would be sexism to operate in ways outside of the rules in order to pick a candidate because of her gender.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 05:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

she's not my candidate because of her gender, she's getting smeared though and that makes me identify.  go figure.  

by anna shane 2008-05-15 05:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Who's smearing Clinton?

by fugazi 2008-05-15 05:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Let me count the names................

by Tolstoy 2008-05-15 05:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Yeah, why don't you?  Because otherwise, you have no evidence of any smears.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 05:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Exactly: if it's racism for black voters to vote for Obama merely because he's black - something I've often heard round here - then it's sexism to vote for Hillary merely because she's a woman.

by duende 2008-05-16 03:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Some news organizations have already declared her the popular vote leader.

Emphisis mine.

Could you possibly point us to the news organizainos that "have already declared her the popular vote leader"?

You state that as fact not opinion so I think links to those declarations of her popular vote lead directly correlates to your veracity or lack of such.  

I checked ..
ABC
CBS
MSNBC
CNN
FOX

So your assistance is greatly appreciated.

by nextgen 2008-05-15 05:16PM | 0 recs
Where do I sign up?

I don't trust our Party to speak up for women's rights when Dean, Pelosi, et al have been silent about the sexism in this year's primary race.  It's time to push back, and not be the good little girls who always give in.

by izarradar 2008-05-15 05:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Where do I sign up?

so its 'girls' who are pushing this delusional crusade?

by toyomama 2008-05-15 06:54PM | 0 recs
Don't put words in my mouth

please.

by izarradar 2008-05-15 07:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

You do realize our primary system makes no sense if you count popular vote?  Every state does things differently so the popular vote metric is basically worthless.  If you guys/gals are so gung ho about making that how we pick candidates, the party needs to eliminate caucus's and implement universal rules (ie no cross over voters, independents yeah or nay).  Oh yeah, you will also need to come up with tens of millions of more dollars for these states to hold primaries like that.  

But until then, our system is set up to use delegates as the metric so you are out of luck this time.

by Xris 2008-05-15 05:16PM | 0 recs
All hail the Belarus model!

I want another people voting in Belarus to illustrate a call for counting MI and FL!
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/14/1516 3/2605

The Council of Europe has barred Belarus from membership since 1997 for undemocratic voting and election irregularities in the November 1996 constitutional referendum and parliament by-elections.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus#Pol itics

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 05:17PM | 0 recs
Re: All hail the Belarus model!

I wonder what these international bodies would think of the Texas caucus.  

by BPK80 2008-05-15 08:10PM | 0 recs
Re: All hail the Belarus model!

I know what way they think of Florida and Michigan.  An election is illegal if campaigning isn't allowed.  And if there's only one name on the ballot, I'm sure you can figure out how that looks.

by Agent77 2008-05-15 08:38PM | 0 recs
Re: All hail the Belarus model!

Michigan simply looks like one candidate voluntarily forfeited the state for tactical reasons.  

If we want to disparage Democratic elections, I see no reason to exempt caucuses.  

by BPK80 2008-05-15 09:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Hillary is stronger on health care, stronger on the foreclosure crisis, and stronger on national security.

All Dems, wake up.  Americans want a strong president who will fight for them.

by moevaughn 2008-05-15 05:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

These are arguments you could have made months ago. Without commenting on their substance, you must realize that they are now moot.

by fugazi 2008-05-15 05:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

If by "stronger on national security" you mean "more belligerent" then I agree.

by ProgressiveDL 2008-05-15 06:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Please every economist on the planet says that Hillary's proposal to freeze interest rates on home mortgages is the worst load of crap to come down the pike since Hoover.  It would dry up all money available to home building industry and cause it to implode.  If that's strong give me weak.

by conqdad 2008-05-15 08:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Housing industry will do even worse with all those homes in foreclosure.

Economists told FDR not to tinker with free marklet capitalism.  Thank God FDR didn't follow the economists' advice.

by moevaughn 2008-05-16 01:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!
If Hillary promised a chicken in every pot, it wouldn't mean she was better on poverty abatement.  It would mean that she was pandering...
Outside of pandering, I have no confidence that she could lead important legislation through congress.  She is just too shitty a salesperson and has no skill engaging the opposition.
by zadura 2008-05-16 04:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Hillary trounces BHO in OH, TX and he marches "Judas" Richardson out to deflect from her win.

Hillary trounces BHO in WV and he marches Mr. $400 haircut out to deflect from her win.

The elite males of the party: Kennedy, Bradley, Dashle, Edwards, Kerry, Leahy - want to ensure that their elite male choice wins.

The problem is that half the party doesn't agree.

I hope that this works against BHO and that Hillary supporters stand up and shout even louder - through their voices and through their votes in the upcoming contests.

West Virginia was a landslide victory with a historic turnout.

Loud and Clear - the base of the party wants Hillary Clinton as their nominee. But the elite male, dominated party good ole boys - want Obama and they are going to try and FORCE him on us.

I hope Hillary takes this to the convention floor for a fight and we will all be there in Denver with her and behind her cheering her on to victory.

by nikkid 2008-05-15 05:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

What complete and utter bullshit.

Obama has gotten votes from lots of women. I just got back from my county caucus for Obama in a state that voted months ago and it was hugely crowded with about 60% women.

And in most states exit polls show he got votes from the majority of women under 65.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 05:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Yes it's all a vast right-wing conspiracy.

by fugazi 2008-05-15 05:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Funny how the "vast right wing conspiracy" has become a vast left wing conspiracy!  They are taking solace in Fox News while dissing Edwards, Kennedy, Kerry. Pelosi, Moyers, Olbermann, Maddow, etc.

by haystax calhoun 2008-05-15 07:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I get it.  You're a crusader.  The kind that leads hosts into an absolute and total defeat because you couldn't plan your way out of a paper bag.

YOUR CANDIDATE FUCKED UP.

She didn't have a plan for anything after Super Tuesday.  Why should I cheer for someone who can't deliver?

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-15 05:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Is it fun for you to totally smear good, hard working Democrats?

by hootie4170 2008-05-15 06:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

You have successfully internalized the ugliest things that Republicans say about Democrats in a single screed.  Perhaps you are in the wrong party... and don't let the door hit ya' on the way out.

by zadura 2008-05-15 07:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Damn those elite, male dominated, good ole boys at NARAL!!!

by soccerandpolitics 2008-05-15 07:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Heres the thing?

YOU and a lot of pissed off bloggers on Mydd and Hillaryis44 MIGHT want to go to Denver and make a funeral pyre of the convention?

But, guess who doesn't?

Hillary and Bill Clinton, and all the democratic insiders that work for them?

They want a career after this?

Matter of fact, if you were THINKING right now instead of in a white hot plasma of anger, you would realize...

IF you THINK Obama is going to lose to McCain AND you want Hillary to be the candidate in 2012,

Then is going APESHIT in Denver, when Obama WILL ALREADY have enough supers to cross the finish line by then, good for Hillary's Future?

Think Political for a change, not about anger?

by WashStateBlue 2008-05-15 08:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Party Officials, as far as I have seen, just don't want the division expanded anymore.

by Falsehood 2008-05-15 05:18PM | 0 recs
You Said

"Hillary Democrats" will feel aggrieved if the Superdelegates over-turn their votes.

Really?  Hillary walked into the primary with a ton of Superdelegates under her belt before the first person even cast a vote...and now you have a problem with Superdelegates?

by Sychotic1 2008-05-15 05:19PM | 0 recs
Re: You Said

I thought HRC thought superdelegates should be the ones who decided this thing since a lead in pledged delegates wasn't enough?

And how can someone take this away from Clinton when she's behind by all metrics, most importantly the metric the DNC uses, you know, to pick the nominee.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 05:26PM | 0 recs
Re: You Said

Delegates are not locked in until they vote. In point of fact, any delegate can change their vote once they get to the convention.

by Little Otter 2008-05-15 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: You Said

Sure. But they won't do it in a way that helps Clinton.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-15 05:30PM | 0 recs
You never know

a million crazed rants emailed from the dead-enders might turn the tide.  It's been effective in the past.

by JJE 2008-05-15 05:32PM | 0 recs
True true but if they check IP addresses

they'll see all the emails are from Taylor Marsh and that will blunt their effectiveness.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-15 05:43PM | 0 recs
I should have added /snark

I was referring to the recent statement from a super that the ravings from the TM/HillIs44 crowd were hurting, not helping, Hillary's chances.

by JJE 2008-05-15 05:56PM | 0 recs
Re: I should have added /snark

I knew that:)

by heresjohnny 2008-05-16 04:53AM | 0 recs
Good point

Hillary had over 100 superdelegates before a single primary vote had been cast.

Her superdelegate lead was the only reason she got to keep saying she was ahead for so long. In point of fact, Obama has led in elected delegates from the first primary, and he has NEVER fallen behind her.

by Angry White Democrat 2008-05-15 07:01PM | 0 recs
Tex you can join my new party

by NewHampster 2008-05-15 05:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Tex you can join my new party

When you get on the field or on the court, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 05:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Tex you can join my new party

LOL, Hampster.

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-15 05:27PM | 0 recs
I think the middle letter should be C

not B.  You're definitely smoking that dust.  

by JJE 2008-05-15 05:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Tex you can join my new party

That's really what this is about for you isn't it? You just don't want to see anyone younger than you in the Whitehouse.

That's why you're always going on and on about how the young whipper-snappers don't have any 'respect for their elders'?

I think we've found a new block of voters... the anti-youngtites.

by Tatan 2008-05-15 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Tex you can join my new party

Kind of explains the threats to vote for McCain!

by Firewall 2008-05-15 05:38PM | 0 recs
I love it!

I am soooooo stealing that image, but future applications may not be as flattering for it's intended cause. I just can't pass up any image that uses the phrase "disenfranchised old people" ;)

by Lost Thought 2008-05-15 05:44PM | 0 recs
Re: I love it!

you could make your own.  Thief

by NewHampster 2008-05-15 05:50PM | 0 recs
Re: I love it!

But then it wouldn't have the ironic beauty of coming from a diehard Hillary supporter ;)

by Lost Thought 2008-05-15 05:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Tex you can join my new party

Any party of Hamps is a party of mine.  Sign me up and mix that martini.

by Tolstoy 2008-05-15 05:52PM | 0 recs
I wonder if it's BYOB.

Will they provide mixers?  So many details to iron out.

by GFORD 2008-05-16 04:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

These grapes taste sour.

by SFValues 2008-05-15 05:26PM | 0 recs
Your 1st sentence is completely wrong.

Should I waste my time reading the rest? I think not.

Do what ya need to do. I'd say the blood is on your hands but a few thousand loons spread all over the country will be meaningless.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-15 05:30PM | 0 recs
Will you also be counting caucus totals in

Texas & primary totals in Nebraska, Washington, etc?

by bobdoleisevil 2008-05-15 05:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Will you also be counting caucus totals in

Would hope they would include the count of primary in Wa State. the caucus was a farce....most people did not even know there was to be a caucus and mailed in their ballots.

Check the results, the primary numbers are far greater than those of the caucus where the obamabots scammed and gamed the system.it was my experience with the rudeness and thugs at the Wa Caucus that made me adamant I would never vote for the Obama...he for sure is not my 'chosen one'.

by RosWaState 2008-05-15 05:44PM | 0 recs
(Comment Deleted)

This comment has been deleted by an administrator.

by Little Otter 2008-05-15 05:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Goood luck with the Take My Ball and Go Home Society, or PBP

by SFValues 2008-05-15 05:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Your commitment to good public policy is so touching.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

They truly think that they are simply entitled to their votes

You think we're not entitled to our own votes?

by Tatan 2008-05-15 05:38PM | 0 recs
Re: (Comment Deleted)

umm, what is  your camp if not Barack and not McCain? you do realize this site is for electing Democrats, right? we're devoted to electing the Democratic nominee. If that conflicts with your "camp" you're free to go elsewhere.

by Todd Beeton 2008-05-15 05:52PM | 0 recs
Re: (Comment Deleted)

Nice Todd!!!

by hootie4170 2008-05-15 06:48PM | 0 recs
It's not going to the convention no matter what

you do. Sorry.

I strongly doubt that the majority of Hillary supporters are going to throw away every progressive principle they believe in and get John McCain elected President because by the rules Hillary lost the nominating process and the party refused to overturn the result. Call me skeptical.

I know TD that there will be some who will never accept the loss. In fact, there always are, but most of us are going to move on soon to fight the general election.

Also, you're getting really close here to advocating that people don't support the Democratic nominee once he is chosen, which would, I believe, be a bannable offense.

by Travis Stark 2008-05-15 05:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

While a applaud your absolute unwavering desire to see Hillary the nominee, be careful what you wish for.  There is a strong possibility if this turns in to a bloody floor fight - Hillary may lose the GE.

And if she does loose in November, because of a floor fight, her political career could well be over. She could end up losing her Senate seat not to mention a great deal of prestige.

I am not threatening just pointing out a strong possibility. Hillary is a great woman and she also a very smart politician. She knows when to pick her battles and this won't be one she will pick.

And as unfair as you may think it is the primary is not a popular vote contest. It cannot be because of and dare I say it, the caucus states.

It's a delegate contest. You can scream and wail, but it won't change anything this time around.

by jsfox 2008-05-15 05:33PM | 0 recs
One Simple Question

Texasdarlin',

First, I love Texas women.  I dated one for a year in high schoo, she was a very sweet girl with a big heart who cared about everything and everybody.  You seem cut from the same mold, a big-hearted woman with an abundance of personaltiy!

That said, if Hillary Clinton conceeds the nomination prior to the convention--say, for example, June 5th--are you going to support with as much zeal an Obama candidacy?

by AK Democrat 2008-05-15 05:36PM | 0 recs
Re: One Simple Question

Arf, apologies for the spelling errors!

by AK Democrat 2008-05-15 05:37PM | 0 recs
Re: One Simple Question
TD,
   I'd love to see your passion and intelligence working for the nominee in the fall.  No matter who it is.
by haremoor 2008-05-15 08:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Given that 12 or 13 states held caucuses, how can the popular vote from the other states that held primaries be an accurate gauge of either who is truly winning or elecability?
by GrahamCracker 2008-05-15 05:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Shorter Texas Darlin:

I'm a woman and the woman didn't win. I'm pissed off about that. And I'm going to do something because I'm pissed off, probably something really stupid.

Repeat, every fucking day.

by DeskHack 2008-05-15 05:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I'm sorry Hillary let you down. But women are 52 per cent of the US population. Hillary's near successful candidacy has proved the glass ceiling is not intact. There will be woman nominee for president within the next ten years I betcha. But with a much better campaign.

Don't give up the hope.

by duende 2008-05-16 04:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Again I ask...

What happens to Obama in the GE if McCain announces a "secret plan" to end the Iraq war within 180 days of taking office?

Obama's one-trick will have trotted right out the door.

If you think it won't happen then you don't know Republicans and their raw thirst for unmitigated power.

by wblynch 2008-05-15 05:43PM | 0 recs
McCain said 2013 today

Helps to pay attention

by JJE 2008-05-15 05:53PM | 0 recs
I would hope that someone on Obama's staff

knew enough history to recognize the BS that Nixon said about the Vietnam War in the '68 election.  

You might want to change the phrase "secret plan" Its a dead giveaway when you steal teh exact phrasese that Tricky Dick used

pathetic

by xenontab 2008-05-15 09:29PM | 0 recs
Easy

We point to the republican record of lies and failure and call it what it is... a not so secret plan to win the election in November by trying to fool the citizens one more time.

They can say whatever they want to.  The neocon Koolaid has gone flat and nobody wants to drink it anymore.

by protothad 2008-05-16 08:46AM | 0 recs
Well some aren't.

Hillary Rodham Clinton's assertions that she leads Barack Obama in the popular vote are a stretch, at best.

The New York senator is using such claims to shore up supporters and help justify why she's still in the Democratic presidential race despite trailing Obama in the number of convention delegates earned in primaries and caucuses.

The argument is supported only by using dubious math on two fronts: by excluding several caucus states won by Obama and by including Florida and Michigan primary results that the Democratic Party, to date, is rejecting.

source

by heresjohnny 2008-05-15 05:44PM | 0 recs
One Precious Vote

I thought about this very hard.  I am 59 and never thought I would get the opporunity to see an intelligent, competent, female run for President of the United States.  But, I did.

Yup, I am one of those 'old ladies' that the Obama people like to talk about.

I thought about giving my vote to someone else, but in my conscience, I cannot vote for either candidate.  But, I have ONE vote this year in the general election.  It isn't worth much to some people; since I am white, bitter, old, fearful and female (things that my ex-chosen party has decided not to represent this year).

So, I made a decision.  I have decided to be a Suffragette and to exercise my right to vote to honor those ladies who so daringly fought for 88 years ago.  The right for a woman to vote!  They fought, they won, I get to vote.  And, I count that vote as a very precious right, and I treat it as such.

I will be for Hillary Clinton; regardless of the outcome of these primary elections.

If she loses, I will proudly (most likely with tears in my eyes) write her name in on my Arizona ballot. I refuse to lose the opportunity to vote for a women who deserves, more than anyone I know, to be President of the United States of America!

I will do this knowing that the 'good old boys' have tried to beat us women down again.  But, we are resilient.  We have endured decades of inequality in the corporate and business world. And, we keep fighting.

We will come back, stronger, and harder than ever before. I just pray that we have a candidate as intelligent and competent as Hillary Clinton to stand behind.

by lanesharon 2008-05-15 05:45PM | 0 recs
Re: One Precious Vote

With all due respect, good old boys have NOTHING to do with Clinton losing this race.

The majority of women under 65 voted for Obama in almost every state.  That's a lot of women!

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 05:49PM | 0 recs
Re: One Precious Vote

HMMMM, I am under 65!  LOL

by lanesharon 2008-05-15 06:30PM | 0 recs
Re: One Precious Vote

Well, I realize that. And you're in the minority of women in that age group.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: One Precious Vote

I agree that this election was much much more about young vs. old than men vs. women.  The generational thing doesn't play as well for hate-mongers though.  

by ProgressiveDL 2008-05-15 06:48PM | 0 recs
Re: One Precious Vote

Hillary wants you to vote for the Democratic nominee. If you truly respect Hillary, you'd do your part (per her request) to elect our party's nominee.

by Firewall 2008-05-15 05:50PM | 0 recs
Re: One Precious Vote

That is what is great about a democratic society.  We get to go in that polling booth and make our OWN CHOICE!  Yeah, Democracy!

by lanesharon 2008-05-15 06:29PM | 0 recs
Re: One Precious Vote

Awesome move Sharon.  You will be personally responsible for putting women back about 50 years with your single, arrogant vote.  

by zadura 2008-05-15 07:11PM | 0 recs
Re: One Precious Vote

Nah...I'm planning on us beating McCain by much more than 1.

by freedom78 2008-05-15 08:41PM | 0 recs
Re: One Precious Vote

Hillary's biggest "good old boys" problem was with people like Mark Penn. His twisted style of politics turned enough people away from her campaign.

by lizardbox 2008-05-15 06:12PM | 0 recs
I wonder if Hillary knows she's creating

such disarray in the party. Somebody should send her a link to this diary.

by Travis Stark 2008-05-15 05:48PM | 0 recs
Re: I wonder if Hillary knows she's creating

Hillary did not CREATE my desire to vote for a competent intelligent female for President.  I created that dream as a little girl.

by lanesharon 2008-05-15 06:28PM | 0 recs
No she didn't, but...

what she has encouraged is this insistence that damn the rules, damn the vote, damn the primary itself she should be the nominee, that she's entitled, and that in turn has left a whole lot of her supporters in a worse situation than they would otherwise have been in.

by Travis Stark 2008-05-15 06:57PM | 0 recs
The General

I don't think it is coincidental that the last six or so front page pieces have been about the GE not this primary.  Although analyses of why Hillary lost this are certainly valid, attempting to construct a scenario where she hasn't is pretty near impossible at this point.  I understand the feelings of her supporters but I think at this point this is not the battle we need to be fighting, not with the Republicans coming at us like this, and I think she knows it better than anyone.

Hillary's campaign style has changed over the last few days.  As a responsible Democrat, she is aware that she cannot add another attack anymore to the GOP attacks on Obama, it's not good for her, not good for our chances in November.  If she needs to fight the good fight for herself and her supporters, more power to her, but it is being fought very differently now.

I think Obama has a very good chance of winning in November, and I think that Hillary's political career past the Senate is very far from over.  But, for the moment, there is an onslaught coming that needs to be dealt with.

by mady 2008-05-15 05:50PM | 0 recs
clinching even if FL and MI were included
Those 18 delegates: Edwards' endorsement also did another thing: It undercuts Clinton's Florida/Michigan argument. As we know by now, Obama will gain a majority of the pledged delegates after Tuesday's contests in Kentucky and Oregon. But if you award Obama Edwards' 18 pledged delegates -- who technically can vote for anyone at the convention, but whom you'd also expect to side with Obama -- then Obama, if he picks up about 50 delegates on Tuesday (less than half of the delegates up for grabs that night), he would obtain a majority of pledged delegates even if you include Florida and Michigan's entire delegations. Here's the math: 4,051 (the DNC convention voting total) minus 797 (superdelegates) equals 3,254 plus FL's (185) and MI's (128) delegates equals 3,567. Divide that by two (and round up), and here's the number needed for a majority: 1,784. Obama currently has 1,599 pledged delegates. Add in those 18 Edwards delegates, add in our low estimate of 50 for him Tuesday and that gets you to 1,667. Now, add in the Clinton best-case scenarios in MI/FL, giving her the delegates with the voting as is, Obama would then reach a majority of the pledged delegates OVERALL. Assume a 105-67 split in FL and a 73-55 split in MI. That gives Obama a grand total of: 1,789.
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 008/05/15/1024654.aspx
by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 05:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I don't understand why it just can't be an Obama-Clinton ticket? Why not keep the energy and passion going straight into November???

by rossinatl 2008-05-15 06:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I know Clinton folks get mad when we start talking math, but here goes anyway.

If we assume Hillary wins KY & PR with 67% (a generous assumption), and Obama wins OR, MT & SD with 52% (very conservative assumption), then Obama finishes with 1677.5 pledged delegates. He now has 291.5 supers.

1677.5 + 291.5 = 1969

2025 - 1969 = 56

So Obama needs only 56 of the remaining 233 supers to clinch.

Now, let's do the math for Hillary:

Using the same assumptions, Hillary will finish with 1557.5 pledged delegates. As of today, she has 271.5 superdelegates.

1557.5 + 271.5 = 1829

2025 - 1829 = 196

So Hillary would need 196 out of the 233 remaining supers to win.

by fugazi 2008-05-15 06:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Keep in mind that the numbers keep getting better for Obama every day.  Let's go to the videotape!

Clinton lost one delegate today from the final count in NC.

Obama gained 13 today.

  • 4 superdelegates
  • 8 Edwards delegates (these were pledged delegates)
  • 1 pledged delegate from the final count in NC.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 06:07PM | 0 recs
Texas Darlin

your concern is duly noted and shared by GLaDoS.

This was a triumph.
I'm making a note here: HUGE SUCCESS.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.
I'm so CONCERNED
I do what I must
because I can.
For the 'good' of all of us.
Except the ones who are calm.
But there's lots sense crying over every mistake.
You just keep on being 'concerned' till you run out of cake.
And the Doubt gets sowed.
And you annoy the bold
For the people who are still calm.

I'm not even concerned.
I'm being so insincere right now.
Even though you broke my talking points.
And mocked me.
And tore my points into pieces.
And threw every piece into a fire.
As they burned it hurt because I was so concerned for you!

Now these points of "data" make a beautiful line.
And we're out of talking points.
We're concerned all the time.
So I'm GLaD. I got concerned.
Think of all the things we tried
on the people who are still bold.
Go ahead and leave me.
I think I prefer to stay concerned.
Who will I vote for?
Maybe John McCain
THAT WAS A JOKE.
HAHA. FAT CHANCE.
Anyway, this concern is great.
It's so delicious and moist.
Look at me still talking
when there's doubt to be sown.
When I look out there, it makes me GLaD I'm concerned.
I've diaries to right.
There is logic to fight.
from the people who are still bold.
And believe me I am still concerned.
I'm doing not so well and I'm still Concerned.
I feel CONCERNED but you're still calm.
While you're calm I'll be still concerned.
And when you're victorious I will be still concerned.
STILL CONCERNED

by Student Guy 2008-05-15 06:03PM | 0 recs
reading the comments

of Obama supporters in this thread says to me that they don't get it.

by Coldblue 2008-05-15 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: reading the comments

Don't get what? Please be specific.

Thanks! :}

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 06:11PM | 0 recs
try reading the diary n/t

by Coldblue 2008-05-15 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: try reading the diary n/t

I did read it and there were lots of claims.  

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 06:15PM | 0 recs
Shorter version

"WE WUZ ROBBED SOMEHOW!"

It just cries out for a good lolcat graphic.

by Dumbo 2008-05-15 07:14PM | 0 recs
Re: reading the comments

We don't get how 1+1=3 if you squint hard enough!

by Firewall 2008-05-15 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

A man in Clinton's position would have been forced to drop out about two weeks ago.

by rfahey22 2008-05-15 06:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Actually, earlier -- probably in the middle of those 11 straight losses.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 06:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I've yet to hear of any candidate dropping out when he could win a significant portion of the contests ahead and a good lock on a large part of the electorate.

Could you point me to such a candidate?

If not, could you refrain from using gender as an excuse?

by Ernst 2008-05-16 03:55AM | 0 recs
Obama's party

by LindaSFNM 2008-05-15 06:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's party

Hey, I just realized, Donna Brazile didn't say "No Women Allowed".

by LindaSFNM 2008-05-15 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's party

The nun can't vote anyway, given the new voter ID laws in Indiana...

by tomchaps 2008-05-15 11:04PM | 0 recs
Welcome to the braindead instant

gratification media age nomination.  Obama's got the shallow platitudes down, the telegenic smile, and the multi-ethnic appeal.  Obama's easy to get in 20 seconds.   Sorry, this one's over - he's the nominee.  Though I agree that Clinton can have the VP slot if she wants.  

Typical narrative, the older, more qualified woman being passed over for the younger shmoozer.   Now playing for the media age.

by activatedbybush 2008-05-15 06:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome to the braindead instant

Don't forget Hillary's pandering with the gas tax, her unilateral unquestioning support for Israel, her near-constant negativity, and her "misspeaks."

by ProgressiveDL 2008-05-15 06:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome to the braindead instant

And her war vote.  That one vote, alone, probably cost her this nomination more than anything else.  Obama's early traction was because of the war.  Had she voted against it, this would have been a Hillary/Edwards race, with Hillary coming out on top, most likely.  People can tout her experience (then why didn't they vote Biden or Richardson, instead?).  They can tout her policy knowledge (again, Biden anyone?  Dodd?  These guys know policy!).  But they fail to realize that that one vote cast a harsh light on her claims of experience.

by freedom78 2008-05-15 08:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome to the braindead instant

Give me a break about the one war vote.  Obama was not even qualified to give a vote at the time.  He only gave a speech.  Many gave such speeches at the time!  Who knows what he would have voted?!  He himself said so. This is pathetic.  It is comes down to this one little fictitious thing that never happened to give him all the glory.  But trust me, it would not last.

by observer11 2008-05-15 11:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome to the braindead instant

Call it a fortunate turn of events for Obama, but the fact is, he did not vote for the Iraq War.  More importantly, he did not continually pretend like that vote was the right one.  If Hillary had come out and said "I regret my Iraq War vote.  It was the wrong choice.  I allowed myself to be deceived by the administration, and I did not look closely enough at all the information.  I was wrong." then Obama would never have won this race.

by ProgressiveDL 2008-05-16 03:17AM | 0 recs
It was the money

Money runs things, and he has more of it.  No knock on him for that.  His campaign understood the rules, and no one can accuse the Clinton campaign of not knowing the same thing.

I saw a post that suggested that her biggest mistake was not seeing Wright as an opportunity.  If she had raised this point herself before IA, Obama would have been done before he began.

by activatedbybush 2008-05-16 05:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome to the braindead instant

It doesn't matter whether you think he's a valid anti-war candidate.  The fact is that the anti-war vote rallied around him, because he quickly became the most likely anti-war candidate to win the nomination.  Her war vote has dragged her down in this campaign.  In early states, those who said that the war was their #1 issue went for Obama over Clinton in all but states she won big (Arkansas, for example).

As for your criticisms of his position, Obama did what all (but far too few) Americans should have done.  He spoke out against it.  That was the only power he had at the time, and he used it.  If a few more Democratic Senators had done so, at least the Democratic party could claim that a majority of its Senate Democrats were against it.  If all of them had done so, the AUMF would have been defeated.  

by freedom78 2008-05-16 07:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome to the braindead instant
If 23 Senators could find the courage to vote against the bill, what makes you think Obama wouldn't? Just admit Hillary f*cked up and sold out our soldiers beacuse she wanted to "look strong on defense".
by mikeinsf 2008-05-16 04:26PM | 0 recs
Last I checked

Obama's IL gas tax holiiday worked.  

Also last I checked, Obama and Clinton have the same Israel policy.

Also last I checked, Obama is the one with foot in mouth disease -- slow motion disowning of Jerry Wright, bitter comments, sweetie.

And I wouldn't say either candidate has been near-constant in negativity - haven't you ever seen a GOP Presidential contest - but both have gone negative too much - I agree

by activatedbybush 2008-05-16 05:36AM | 0 recs
Welcome to the braindead instant

gratification media age nomination.  Obama's got the shallow platitudes down, the telegenic smile, and the multi-ethnic appeal.  Obama's easy to get in 20 seconds.   Sorry, this one's over - he's the nominee.  Though I agree that Clinton can have the VP slot if she wants.  

Typical narrative, the older, more qualified woman being passed over for the younger shmoozer.   Now playing for the media age.

by activatedbybush 2008-05-15 06:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Definately!  This goes to the floor.  Why should we nominate the less qualified, less electable candidate?  No way.  The guy peaked in Wisconsin.  We take this to the floor!

by masslib1 2008-05-15 06:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

It's not going to happen. I learned today about the process for being a national convention delegate from my state. The ones who get there for Clinton will be the regular party folks and they are not going to create a scene on national tv and undermine it for the Democrats this year.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 06:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I don't think YOU get it.  If Hillary is not the candidate AND Florida and Michigan votes do not get counted, Obama does NOT win.  Real simple.  Sorry guys.  

by lanesharon 2008-05-15 06:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Firstread pointed out that Obama will probably clinch this soon even under the absurd numbers you would like to be used for FL/MI. That's been made much easier by the Edwards endorsement.

However, after the DNC was ignored by those states they will have to penalize them for breaking the rules or they won't be able to hold the line at all in the future.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 06:58PM | 0 recs
Really? Why is he flowing with cash and delegates

and your candidate is in the RED!!!!! and losing delegates...certainly not strong in accounting and finances...whats up with her supporters not funding her?  Obama is very well funded by his supporters...put your money where your mouth is and pay her 20 plus million debt and give her some spending money.

by netgui68 2008-05-15 06:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Really?

I don't know.  I do know that she's won 300K more votes than him since he peaked in WI.  He's unelectable.  I will be there in Denver urging the Party not to take us over the cliff with him.

by masslib1 2008-05-15 07:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Really?

Good luck with that...I doubt it works out to well for you...and by the way...based on the polls he looks more electable than her...he even has a larger margin over McCain in California than she..looks like she is losing support there...also in Ohio...I think they did not appreciate the Columbia trade agreement ordeal.  As the DNC rules say and confirmed by Dean and Pelosi...this is a delegate race and you do not have the numbers.

by netgui68 2008-05-15 07:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Really?

Well, you won't have the votes.

by masslib1 2008-05-15 08:14PM | 0 recs
Fortunately....my loss will

be your loss as well...Enjoy 4 more years of Bush and the loss of all your freedoms and reproductive rights.

P.S.  Hope you do not have a relative in Iraq...she would feel real crappy if you and others like you caused them to come home in a wooden box all because your desire for revenge and making a statement. Fortunately my children are underage and you can't F*ck them like you plan to do to other peoples.

by netgui68 2008-05-16 08:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Is winning NC by 14 and winning by 1.1% in Indiana (where SUSA had her up 12 two days before) peaking in February?  86% of voters were white in IN why couldnt she do better than a near tie with her base being 86% of the voters?

by affratboy22 2008-05-15 07:55PM | 0 recs
If you prefer McCain over Obama it is your right

to vote for him...go ahead and do it...maybe we lose but women will lose much more than us...watch your children come back in a wooden box and you will certainly lose your right to choose...if you are so bitter and vendictive...quit talking about it and just do it.  I have no more sympathy for your nonsense, I do not even see you as a democrat anymore...you sound just like a Republican...whining is for babies and brats...which one are you?

by netgui68 2008-05-15 06:39PM | 0 recs
Wake the fuck up!!

If a Democrat is so stupid as to vote for that Fuck Face McAncient who wants to nominate SCOTUS judges to overturn Roe v Wade, to continue our broken system of Healthcare, to continue the Bush Tax Cuts which only gives corporations and lobbyists more power in Washington, to continue the war and have thousands more of our brave men and women be killed and maimed....

I say fuck you, my sister got an abortion when she was seventeen after being raped, I have shit for healthcare and won't use it because the deductible is so high, I work two fucking menial jobs just so me and my boys can eat, and have a place to call home, I have a cousin on his second tour in Iraq whose only request is to tell people to get a Democratic president because he wants to see his daughter again...

What's at stake is people's lives and well-being not your fucking feelings about how your nominee was wrongfully treated.  I gotta feeling HRC is going to be just fine after this election.  That is more than I can say for myself or the millions and millions of Americans that need a Democrat in the White House.

by hootie4170 2008-05-15 06:41PM | 0 recs
Don't confuse them with facts and logic!

It does not exist amongst this clan. On the upside...I am with you and I understand whats at stake...for these people...it is all about feminism and having a woman in office...the are blinded by their agenda.

by netgui68 2008-05-15 06:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Don't confuse them with facts and logic!

Feminism is a wonderful thing. I am a feminist for Obama. Feminism does not mean supporting someone because she is a woman.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 06:52PM | 0 recs
I am not insulting feminist...just fanitical ones

I am malist but I don't vote for someone because they are male, nor do I judge someone's ability by their gender...I am all for women helping women grow professionally and obtain equal footings in every arena...but when you take it as far as these people....it becomes a sickness and extremism...I feel they think Hillary should get it as a gift to make up for all the injustices women have gone through...I think that creates an injustice when you over compensate or demand more than equal rights...she needed to earn it...I did not vote against her cause she is female and I doubt very few Obama supporters did either.

by netgui68 2008-05-15 07:15PM | 0 recs
But, but, but

MUST HAVE HILLLLLARRREEEEEE!

Many of the so-called feminists regularly used derogatory terms for Michelle Obama, Donna Brazille, female newscasters and other female politicians.  These people are either freepers or obsessed with Clinton to the point of dangerous neurosis.  

by GFORD 2008-05-16 04:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Don't confuse them with facts and logic!

I need a little sanity...thank you..

by hootie4170 2008-05-15 06:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Wake the fuck up!!

Nice language.  Typical of many Obama supporters.  Bodes well for your candidate.

This has nothing to do with 'feelings' and everything to do with experience and realism.  We need a Democrat, but not just ANY Democrat.  We need a strong Democrat who will lead us in the unpopular issues.

I chose the BEST candidate, and I am stickin' with it!  And, your well chosen words cannot change my mind.  LOL

by lanesharon 2008-05-15 06:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Wake the fuck up!!

Thanks for your empathy...

by hootie4170 2008-05-15 07:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Wake the fuck up!!

Agreed, not the best choice of words but the sentiement is understood.  So thousands more die in Iraq, young girls die in back alleys because they can't access legal abortions, millions more lose access to health care, and you are OK with that?  Just wanted to make sure I understood your position.

by Rick in Eugene 2008-05-15 10:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Wake the fuck up!!

Wow, I'd mojo the hell out of this post if my rec/rate privileges hadn't been stripped.  Well put.  

Any so-called 'Clinton Democrat' who votes for anybody but Obama in November is simply voting against his or her own self interest for no good reason.  Even Hillary has said that such people are fools.

by chinapaulo 2008-05-15 09:45PM | 0 recs
Questions people might ask

... ask the media and ask Obama supporters, IF the numbers were reverse, if it were Obama  trailing in delegates by a minor number, if superdelegates kept dribbbling over to Clinton, if a big win in WV by Obama was quickly swept from media spotlight, if Obama supporters felt strongly that he would hold the popular vote lead ....

HOW WOULD YOU FEEL?  WOULD YOU FEEL WRONGED?  Would you think that your candidate was getting the raw treatment and, if you thought that way, would you be asking yourself WHY?  Would you try to understand the thinking and motives of those pushing our candidate out the door well before the convention.

And if you TRULY believed, as you say you do, that Obama is the greatest candidate, the man for the hour in America, the ONE who can take on and beat McCain and get a Democrat in the WH, how would you be thinking and feeling???

Just curious if anyone can try to switch shoes for just a sec ..... before jumping up and saying "but Hillary said this, and Bill said that..." because folks, I've got my list of "but Obama said this, and Michelle said that ...."  

I'm just trying to say that if the roles were reversed, I think we would be hearing the same exact things from Obama supporters.

by Southern Mouth 2008-05-15 06:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Questions people might ask

If Obama was behind, I'd be congratulating Clinton.

It's not like this hasn't happened before. I've been for candidates who didn't win the primary many times. And then you go ahead and work for heart out for the fall victory.

So that's it. I've thought other candidates were superior to the ones who got the nomination. But then they lost.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 07:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Questions people might ask

Just wondering if this is the first nomination fight Clinton supporters have been involved in -- These kinds of questions sort of suggest that maybe that's so.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 07:02PM | 0 recs
Honestly...me too

I did not whine when Edwards lost and I would not whine if Obama had lost...but he didn't Senator Clinton has for all intents in purposes lost. I can accept rules and math...I feel sorry for those who can't seem to tap into reality and do the same.

by netgui68 2008-05-15 07:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Questions people might ask

If the situation were reversed, Obama would already be gone.  The party would have closed ranks around the Clintons.  And then I take a minute, clear my head, and start donating to her GE campaign.

by rfahey22 2008-05-15 07:04PM | 0 recs
Nope.

That's a simple answer.  If the shoe on the other foot, if Clinton had more delegates, and a lower popular vote (and no, she doesn't have the popular vote even now), then you would not see a call for revolution.

This is the Clintons' party.  They got to choose the shape of the game board that everybody is playing.  They have been on a first name basis with many of the superdelegates and other party insiders since well before Hillary announced, and even before Bush became president.  The very idea that the Clintons could cry that the system is somehow UNFAIR now is preposterous.

I remember just a few months ago when, before anybody in Iowa or the other states had cast a single vote, Hillary had a gigantic surplus of 160 superdelegates on her side and they didn't mind boasting about it as proof of their inevitability.  They used that as a bludgeon in their fundraising.  They even threatened to punish some big Democratic fundraisers if they gave to other candidates.  "You're either with us or you're against us," Terry McAuliffe told them.

And they are the victims of circumstances beyond their control?  

So it's hard to imagine the shoe being EXACTLY on the other foot, but if it were, you can be sure that there would be little recourse for Obama, and the media would have declared this thing over and done with a long time ago.

by Dumbo 2008-05-15 07:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Questions people might ask

If Obama were so far behind Hillary, I'd say:

Our democracy depends on our collective wisdom, so I don't always get things my way.  And I can live with that.  It's a noble (if challenging) way to do things.  

I respect the party's decision, even if I think it's utterly wrong.  I wouldn't try to subvert the process just to get things my way.  And I'd never accept anyone else subverting the process to get things their way either.

I believe he's a better candidate than she is, on balance, considering all their strengths and weaknesses, considering my personal values.  If you disagree, that doesn't make you my enemy.  I know we're all operating in good faith.  And it's even possible you're right and I'm wrong.  I've got my blind spots, same as anyone.

It hurts to see him lose, knowing that racism played a part in this... yet I can rejoice in knowing that a female candidate overcame sexism to be our President.  Both racism and sexism are so unjust, and so important, I can be damn happy either way.

Now, the question back at you: What would you do if your candidate had already won the pledged delegate contest by a lot, was already being acknowledged the presumptive nominee, you were already seeing the party coalesce around her, yet the opponent was insisting on a divisive fight all the way to the convention?

by Matt Smith 2008-05-15 10:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Questions people might ask

Sometimes your candidate wins and sometimes they lose.  If Obama was losing, I'd do the same thing I did when Dean lost - grumble a bit and get behind John Kerry.

Have none of you ever been through a primary before?

by Jess81 2008-05-16 03:08PM | 0 recs
Why stop at the convention?

Why not start a third party and mass-defect to it?  Then you can run against Obama and McCain! It's not like there are any important issues this election cycle that would make such a thing look silly and petty.

by Dumbo 2008-05-15 06:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

TexasDarlin,
You have been a wonderful voice for Hillary here on MyDD. Trust me, I am very distressed over this as well, but I think it's in all of our best interests to back Senator Obama. Even if it's with as little as your vote and nothing else, this has to be done. While I agree that there have been some injustices done to Hillary throughout this campaign, unfortunatley, we have to be forced to turn the other cheek because any injustices would be far outpaced by what a President McCain could do to us over a 4 or even 8 year term, especally with the Supreme Court problems that will arise over the next 4 years.

I can't bring myself to do something that would make his path to the White House easier, and make our fight for abortion rights, gay rights, respect for women in the workplace and other things like that even harder.

I know that Hillary would agree, because she is a fighter for progressive values.

I know how hard this is, and it's  hard for me every day. But let's not let the GOP win this war. Because, even if Obama loses in the GE, the winner isn't Hillary Clinton, it is them.

by zcflint05 2008-05-15 07:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Excellent comment.  Would that I could rec it.

by Same As It Ever Was 2008-05-16 05:30AM | 0 recs
Yeah, this is realistic

You can't read the signs in the reporting because of your blind devotion, can you?  She's already conceding without saying the words.  She's playing out June 3rd and she's done.  

by LtWorf 2008-05-15 07:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah, this is realistic

And I can respect her decision to finish out the primary season.  It must be costing her quite a lot to do it, but it's her money after all!

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah, this is realistic

Given her change in tone, I have little problem with it either.

by LtWorf 2008-05-15 07:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I'm going to Denver to protest the way the DNC has handled this.  Not one of them has condemned the sexism in the MSM.  Not one of them has condemned the criminal behavior in the Texas caucuses.  This has been an outrage to me, and I'm intending to show it.  I'm going to go to Denver, and protest.  

by FarWest 2008-05-15 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

This is a free country.  Enjoy!

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 07:09PM | 0 recs
She DOES have the popular vote lead

If you count Michigan, where no one campaigned and where only three people were on the ballot, and Florida, where no one campaigned either. Also, don't include any caucus estimates, because caucuses are completely undemocratic. Damn those states operating under the American federal democratic republic system.

So there's alot of ifs, ifs, ifs, and don't's. That sounds like there is alot of contortion to make the evidence back up one's point.

Here are some undeniable facts. With FL counted and without the caucuses taken into account, it's about a 300,000 popular vote lead for Obama. With MI and FL into account, Clinton is up 30,000 votes. With Obama favored in four of the last five states, I don't see how one can argue that Clinton is assured of winning the popular vote. Nor have I ever heard a mainstream media outlet claim that Clinton will win a true popular vote count.

Regardless, this is a race for delegates. Does that sound familiar? Perhaps some top Clinton operative said that.

by irish09 2008-05-15 07:10PM | 0 recs
Re: She DOES have the popular vote lead

Only in your dereams she does Hillary have a majority

by Lefty Coaster 2008-05-15 09:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

The whole "popular vote" metric as a method for evaluating the strength of a candidate is ridiculous, and I am sure that if the roles were reversed and Obama was peddling this, the MyDD community would be incensed that someone would be that deluded and purposefully dishonest.

We don't choose a candidate based upon the popular vote, we choose a candidate based upon the delegates that they win in each of the respective 54 or so contests. If we did, there would be no such thing as a caucus in Iowa or any other state. If we did, each candidate would stake out in the 10 states with the highest population and score what they could.

Obama, it looks like, will win the contest based upon the rules that were set up when the primary process began.

by unionfield 2008-05-15 07:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

If he was such a STRONG candidate, and she was such a WEAK candidate; why didn't he get 75% of the popular vote?   Why such a small margin?

You are right.  Usually, by now, the primary season is over and a candidate is chosen, based on an overwelming majority of the votes.  But, this is not a 'normal' primary season.  It is close and SHOULD go all the way to the floor.

And, on the floor, I think every superdelegate should have to disclose how much money they took in 'contributions' for the candidate they are endorsing. If the candidates need to have full disclosure, then the delegates that vote for them should also.

by lanesharon 2008-05-15 07:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Re: contributions to superdelegates. Just look it up. There are two websites which track each and every federal contribution. fec.gov and opensecrets.org

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 07:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

They are both very strong candidates, which is why it was such a close fight all along. But there can only be one winner, and the results have shown who that will be.

by KyleJRM 2008-05-15 07:21PM | 0 recs
By what metric should we choose a candidate?

Not delegates obviously.  Which poll should it be?  Gallup?  Rasmussen?  I guess you'll have to look up which one favors Hillary more before you make a decision.  

We have rules and someone won.  You don't like it and blame it on sexism and some vast "Old Boy" conspiracy.  Hillary had EVERY advantage imaginable before she lost in Iowa.  She lost.  Deal with it.  

I invite everyone who can't deal with friggin' primary election results (because theyve emotionally attached every slight and wrong theyve ever endured for being a woman to ONE woman) they don't like to PLEASE, pretty please stop smearing Obama and "threatening" to leave the party and just do it already.  You are the minority.  After your INCESSANT smears, attacks and lies spread on this and other "Democratic" blogs I truly would feel much better with all these people being NOT WELCOME in the Democratic party.  

Reality based Democrats who backed a different candidate and havent spent every day for the past six months lying, smearing and attacking other Dems and then whining are more than welcome in the party.  The rest of you all.... don't let the door hit you on the way out.  

by ThisPlaceIsCrazy 2008-05-15 10:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Well, part of it may have been her crazy head start.  That's not a criticism of her.  But certainly her prior name recognition and party connections gave her a huge head start... not just based on her own ability/accomplishments, but on her standing as former First Lady.  

So even catching up with her indicated Barack's a stronger candidate; much less passing her by.  I don't think it takes a 75% lead to show he's been the far superior candidate.  

No disrespect towards her - she'd be a great, effective, historic President - but she hasn't run the better campaign.

by Matt Smith 2008-05-15 10:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

If she was such a STRONG candidate, and he was such a WEAK candidate; why didn't she get 75% of the popular vote?   Why is she losing in every possible category?

And enough with the rants that all Obama supporters are sexist.  I would vote for HRC in the GE were she the nominee.  I happen to prefer Barack Obama as a candidate, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with genitalia.

I was as proud as anyone when the gavel was handed to Nancy Pelosi and she was announced as "Madame Speaker."  In fact it brought a tear to my eye to witness such a historic moment.

I will be just as proud when I have the chance to vote for a female candidate for president, but it will only happen when that candidate is the person I feel will lead this country in the best possible direction at the time.

Right now, Hillary Clinton is not that candidate for me.  That does not make me a sexist, just as you voting for Hillary does not make you a racist.

I promise that sometime soon, a woman WILL be elected president.  Don't set the cause of women's rights back another 50 years (if McCain gets elected and appoints SCOTUS justices that overturn Roe v. Wade) just because you're bitter it didn't happen this time.

by doschi 2008-05-15 11:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Feel free to take it to the floor.  Only a very small, deluded minority buy your attempts to spin the situation (this vote counts, this vote doesn't, etc., all conventiently favoring Clinton).

Take it to the floor if you wish. It matters not, Obama will be the nominee.

by KyleJRM 2008-05-15 07:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Who, exactly, do you expect to take this to the floor? Do you have a clue about how delegates to the national convention are chosen?  

When you figure that out, you'll realize that these are not the kind of people to lead demonstrations on the convention floor.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 07:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

And by "how delegates to the national convention are chosen," I don't mean how many delegates each candidate gets but rather who those delegates are.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-15 07:24PM | 0 recs
I can't wait

To the convention?  I really can't wait until Hillary tells you to shut up about all this foolishness.  Should be in about three weeks.

by map 2008-05-15 07:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

We weren't outraged because of the electoral college. We were outraged because Gore won Florida.

Also, following the rules != throwing Hillary under the bus.

by mattw 2008-05-15 07:37PM | 0 recs
Take it to the floor!

To the window!  To the wall!

Who knew SoCal was a Ying Yang fan?

by JJE 2008-05-15 07:42PM | 0 recs
Skeet, skeet skeet!

Hilarious.

by DeskHack 2008-05-15 07:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Take it to the floor!

Why the HR on this?

by fogiv 2008-05-15 08:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

If a Hillary Democrat is one who is not willing to concede the nomination once the votes have been cast and the superdelegates have made their preference known, then a Hillary Democrat is no Democrat at all.

Putting your own personal inability to face reality above your country is disgusting and from my perspective, does not belong in our party.

Fight for Hillary, even now, when its apparent she cannot win. Fight to win each remaining primary. Fight to persuade the superdelegates. Raise money for your candidate. Register new voters. Continue to fight until Hillary drops out or the primaries end.

But for the sake of your party and your country stop this childishness. You are not advancing the cause of feminism by calling everyone around you sexist. You are doing nothing for your candidate by threatening to sabotage our nominee because you can't understand that Hillary and Obama have been fighting for months for the nomination, and the one you picked didn't win.

Get over it. If you truly believe anything you write about. If you really care about the causes Hillary champions, then you will not fight to make John McCain president.

I realize tensions are high now and I'm fine with the venting of frustrated Hillary supporters, but this kind of talk is not healthy for our party or our country.

by BlueGAinDC 2008-05-15 07:58PM | 0 recs
Kindly take your smug pronouncements elsewhere

Get ready for censorship if the Obamanazi's take over.  
Not only will they dictate who "belongs" in the Democratic Party (a la Donna Brazile),
but they'll label you childish

or maybe sweetie

if you disagree.  

***A

by adrienne4dean 2008-05-15 10:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

To the stupid notion that Hillary Democrats are not Democrats at all, then, please explain how in the HELL would you win the General Election when one-half (1/2) the party bolts on your chosen candidate. When the drug effects have worn off, then, please rejoin this discussion to provide credible comments.

by Check077 2008-05-16 04:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

If you read my comment you will see that I was only referring to Hillary Democrats as referring to those who will not support the nominee and who are advocating a floor fight not being this is an actually close nomination battle, but because they don't really care about beating John McCain, they just care about doing as much damage as they can to Obama.

A Democrat should be a Democrat. If you are unaffiliated and only support Hillary, then fine, but leave this site because its for Democrats. If you are an actual Democrat, then you should reassess your priorities if you think electing Hillary is the only possible option.

by BlueGAinDC 2008-05-16 07:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

You Go, Texas. I'm a with ya!!!!!!!

by susanclare 2008-05-15 08:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

If Hillary is robbed of the nomination Democrats deserve to lose in November. I've never seen a smarter, better candidate in all my 30 years as a voting Democrat. I'd never vote for BO, and think he is the only person who could potentially be a worse president than Bush. If Democrats were going to be hateful to women and totally denigrate and dismiss them they should have, at the very least, put up a qualified substitute.

by seattlegonz 2008-05-15 08:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

HR'd for trashing a Democrat.

Seriously.

by DeskHack 2008-05-15 08:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Trolled for trashing our party's nominee ..

by stryan 2008-05-15 08:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

lol! Hillary 'robbed of the nomination'?  You mean when she loses according to the RULES that were established at the outset and even when she loses after trying to go back and change the rules so they're more favorable to her?

by chinapaulo 2008-05-15 09:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I feel sorry for you. I really do. There's so much hurt under your message. Sometimes you can take politics too seriously (or project on political candidates too much).

Regardless of how you feel, one thing you should recognize is that most women under roughly age 35 do not have the same lens whatsoever. Younger women do not think that female solidarity requires them to vote for the female candidate. And they do not think that criticism of Hillary Clinton, such as the opening skit on SNL last weekend, are sexist.  That's why they tend to favor Barack Obama. He connects better with them regardless of his gender.

by drmark 2008-05-15 10:10PM | 0 recs
trolling worthy of a 4-year old

It's pathetically obvious. Take some lessons from catfish or one of the other senior trolls.

by obsessed 2008-05-16 01:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

I just got here.

It's like walking into the Twilight Zone.

You guys are really taking this loss hard.

Please stop the divisive comments.

by spacemanspiff 2008-05-15 08:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Way to go Texasdarlin.  Keep dividing the party with your threats.

You have been a bad, bad democrat.  

by hienmango 2008-05-15 09:05PM | 0 recs
Hillary's speech to the Convention will endorse BO

for President.

by Lefty Coaster 2008-05-15 09:45PM | 0 recs
What are the stakes here.

When people talk about voting McCain, or seem happy about an Obama loss just because your candidate is not winning, a little reminder here about the stakes.

John McCain has promised Conservative Judges, and already has a group forming to help him pick the right (with a capital R) judges.

Are you really willing to set back all progressives causes for decades, to squander a golden opportunity to deliver a mortal blow to the GOP, to begin to lay the foundation for a more egalitarian society?

How many dead bodies is your pride worth, how much poverty and inequality?  Because that is what you are now saying. War goes on, reproductive rights sent back into the stone age.  No problem according to you.

You would rather see a president elected that would turn the Supreme Court into the most conservative, right-wing legal instrument since the Inquistion than support the person who beat your candidate.  How proud you must be.

Well if that is the way you feel, the door is over there, the rest of us will double down and work harder for progressive ideals.  

And you can take pride in being this century's Dixiecrats.  And oh yeah, by the way, we won without them too

by xenontab 2008-05-15 09:49PM | 0 recs
Re: What are the stakes here.

I don't think they care about the stakes.  

These diaries are seriously doing damage to Hillary's reputation.  It's as if Hillary has no control over her supporters.

by hienmango 2008-05-15 10:11PM | 0 recs
Re: What are the stakes here.

She hasn't, and niether has Obama over his.

After having read a couple of hundred comments about how clintons share of the vote in certain regions showed that people who voted for her are racist scum, I'm not all that convinced that any support on the internet has any right to complain about the other side.

by Ernst 2008-05-16 04:02AM | 0 recs
And that's Fo Real!

by KLRinLA 2008-05-15 10:37PM | 0 recs
This is for Tex

by ragekage 2008-05-15 09:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Recipe for a typical highly-rec'd diary at MyDD:

- Short on facts

  • Heavy on dishonesty
  • Not open to reasonable discussion
  • Laden with unprovable and incomprehensible analysis
  • Mean-spirited and threatening at its core
  • Anti Democratic Party
  • Candidate-above-issues
  • Candidate-above-party

This one's a winner!  Well done!

by chinapaulo 2008-05-15 09:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!
I love how this is the third diary today that says "Hillary is projected to be the winner of the popular voe on June 3rd"
First of all never mnd the whole BS business of counting FL and MI, and ignoring the caucuses, but who is projecting that exactly ?
Besides, you know, your imagination.
by Benjaminomeara 2008-05-15 10:16PM | 0 recs
It's okay, I'll wait til you're sober.

by benmasel 2008-05-15 10:31PM | 0 recs
So what do you want us to do?

As an Obama supporter am I supposed to also write congress and tell them to give it to Hillary because you said so, because you want her to be the nominee?

And even if Congress doesn't listen to us, am I to join you in not voting for Obama?

Or since I am not a HRC supporter am I just supposed to STFU and if Obama wins the nomination afterall, I just get to watch and hear about how guys voted for McCain?

So basically, regardless of powers out of your control (or rules, or truth, or facts), if HRC doesn't win you are going to vote for McCain, plain and simple, and we should shut up because that is how it is going down.

Is that your point?  It has to be, there is no other interpretation.  Its a terrible day to see humans regress into tantrums, cries, threats, and muckrackery because they didn't get their way, even worse when it was in the face of a mountain of contradiction.  

Reflection can be illuminating

by KLRinLA 2008-05-15 10:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!
Texasdarlin,
   While your passion is impressive, I think that you've lost your objectivity about what has happened over the last year. Clinton isn't losing the nomination because democratic primary voters don't like women - women comprise around 60% of the voters in the democratic primaries. And if she were handicapped by sexism, she wouldn't have had such overwhelming support to start with. Clinton started out with massive support: she started out with all of the name recognition, dominance in the polls, a huge fundraising organization that collected a record amount of money, all of the political support from the establishment, tons of endorsements, tons of campaign workers, the support of the majority of blacks as well as whites, men as well as women, and was portrayed by the media as being the inevitable winner. The nomination was, as the saying goes, hers to lose.
   Then two things happened.
   First, her team settled on an extremely risk strategy, thinking that if they piled up enough money and dominated in a few large, early states that they would lock out the competition, rendering the rest of the states irrelevant. So they ignored all small states, all states with primaries after Super Tuesday, etc., and even structured their fund-raising strategy so that they maxed out all of their donors for Super Tuesday, assuming that they wouldn't need any money after that. This, of course (in retrospect) left them highly vulnerable to the campaign running long, which they were unprepared for.
   The second thing that happened is that Obama turned out to be able to energize voters, raise an unbelievable amount of money from huge numbers of small donors (who weren't maxed out, so he didn't run our of money when the contest didn't stop early), and managed his campaign extremely effectively.
   The result is that instead of locking the nomination up early, Clinton was forced to battle (and lose extremely badly) in a whole series of primaries that they weren't prepared for, while Obama, a candidate who started without money, connections, or institutional support, as well as several obvious disadvantages (half-black, foreign-sounding name) managed to out-do her campaign by every measure.
    In some ways worse than her initial failures, the way that she handled them showed two (IMO) fatal character flaws.
   First, she appears unwilling to admit mistakes, so she created disasters out of what should have been minor issues if handled properly. For example, her vote to give Bush the authority to go to war was a mistake, but if she'd admitted it, as several other candidates did, the issue would have been closed. But instead she insisted in defending her decision, turning a one-day apology into months of accusations and justifications dragged through the press. Whether she was "right" or "wrong" isn't the issue, it's that she mismanaged the issue and turned it into a huge problem for her campaign that cost her the support of much of the core of the democratic party. Similarly, when the campaign strategy of being able to out-raise the competition and shut them out early was clearly not working (i.e. as soon as Obama started raising serious money, well before Super Tuesday) she stuck with the failed strategy and the team that made the mistake for months, wasting time and money that might have saved her campaign, and again revealing that her unwillingness to admit mistakes and address them badly hurt her campaign.
   Second, once she'd effectively lost the nomination, rather than conceding for the good of the party, or campaigning in a way that would allow for future cooperation (for example, how Huckabee and Ron Paul continued to campaign after McCain had effectively won the republican nomination - aggressive but not destructive), she's followed a series of increasingly implausible and destructive strategies. In particular, once it became clear that she could not win the elected delegate count, her only possible hope was that the super-delegates might decide that Obama was somehow unelectable, and could therefore be convinced to over-ride the elected delegates and select Clinton as the nominee. While that's an unlikely scenario, it's not impossible, and she's got every right to try. But what I find unacceptable is that in pursuing her sole remaining option she violated the "11th commandment" of not attacking your own party. She's waged an aggressive campaign to attempt to convince super-delegates that the primaries that she lost were invalid for a variety of reasons, and even worse, she has tried to render Obama unelectable. By pursuing divisive, destructive tactics she hurt Obama, and herself, and the democratic party. I'm not talking just about the appeals to racism and sexism, as bad as they were, but also the vindictive behavior that's driven so many former Clinton supporters to leave her campaign. That behavior is unacceptable for anyone to aspires to leadership. Not only is it simply unacceptable behavior on the human level, it's simply stupid for someone aspiring to a leadership role to behave in such a selfish, destructive manner, because even if it were successful as a tactic to win the nomination, and somehow she still managed to win the general election after disenfranchising the majority of the democratic party, she would have destroyed the trust that's required to govern. She has, to her credit, toned down her divisive rhetoric in the last week, so while the last month has been quite self-destructive, perhaps the party can pull back from the brink of destruction.
    Let me emphasize the key points: Clinton didn't lose because democratic primary voters are sexists, because they supported her at the start of the campaign, and it hardly seems plausible that voters would suddenly become sexist mid-way through the primaries. And she didn't have the nomination stolen from her, because she's lost the vote.
   So what we're left with is that Clinton started out with all of the advantages, and managed to lose to a virtually unknown candidate who started the campaign with nothing. Taking a strong lead and turning it into a loss is not what you want in a President.
    So while Clinton is an admirable woman, who's done a lot of great things, she's demonstrated over the last year that she shouldn't be President, at least not this year. But sometimes losing an election can be good for a politician - look at how Gore matured and gained perspective. So perhaps with a little more experience and wisdom, she can be a great President some day.
by laird 2008-05-15 10:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

She'll have the popular vote lead if you count Michigan and Florida but not all of the caucuses.

So basically, what you're saying is that Hillary Clinton leads in popular vote if you don't count voters in certain states that went overwhelmingly for Obama.

Oh, and also, we're allowed to count Florida, where Barack Obama did not campaign, and Michigan, where he was not on the ballot, but we cannot count certain "undemocratic" caucuses because it is hard to project popular vote information from caucus results.

I didn't realize that Karl Rove's school of math was catching on.

by chicagovigilante 2008-05-15 11:09PM | 0 recs
Soldiers continue to die in Iraq while we bicker

amongst ourselves

nice, very nice.

I'm truly convinced you Don't care about winning this election at All cost because if you did then you would not want to go to the convention.

Thank god these decisions Don't rest in your hands.  Thank god for the soldiers who are depending on this party to get them safely home and thank god for the rest of us!

by hope monger 2008-05-15 11:21PM | 0 recs
It's just the presidency, why the rush?

People want to get this over with. That was Bush's argument for counting Florida. Well don't you wish Florida had come out differently?

by catfish1 2008-05-16 02:32AM | 0 recs
There is no immediate rush. But I believe

we cannot afford to go the convention without a clear nominee.  I'm not the only person who holds this opinion.

by hope monger 2008-05-16 10:11AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Or we could just go with following the rules everyone agreed to before the campaigns started.

by Rick in Eugene 2008-05-16 12:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

WHY do we keep saying that the democrats "broke" the rules (and should be punished as such) if it was the Republicans who moved the primary in that state? This doesn't make sense to me.

by devoted1 2008-05-16 12:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

My understanding is that this is not true. In Michigan, the Democrats were very eager to move up the primary. In Florida, the Republicans did the deed but the Democrats put up no resistance and were in favor of the move. Although you do often hear this.

by drmark 2008-05-16 06:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Tell me how counting popular votes is fair to caucus states that broke no DNC rules.

by Skaje 2008-05-16 01:25AM | 0 recs
This is just so wrong.....

...on so many levels.  This is exactly why I JUST posted a diary that speaks exactly to this type of misinformed, ill-advised rhetoric.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/16/684/ 15859

I feel like feminism will be set back forty years after this campaign.  Thanks for nothing, Hillary.

by JulieinVT 2008-05-16 02:15AM | 0 recs
No way, Hillary has done A LOT

for women. She got people used to the idea of a powerful woman in the spotlight.

I think my own (now reformed) Hillary-hate (or Hillary dislike) stemmed from the cognitive dissonance of such a commanding charismatic woman in a female's body.

by catfish1 2008-05-16 02:33AM | 0 recs
Re: This is just so wrong.....

Women being set back would be done by Obama and his neanderthal attitude. He obviously sees us as some sort of inferior species.

Get in line, my *ss!

by Ga6thDem 2008-05-16 03:54AM | 0 recs
Re: This is just so wrong.....

Women being set back would be done by Obama and his neanderthal attitude. He obviously sees us as some sort of inferior species.

Bat. Shit. Crazy.

by BlueinColorado 2008-05-16 09:20AM | 0 recs
Re: This is just so wrong.....

That's Obama's attitude. Do you think condescendingly calling a professional reporter "sweetie" not neanderthal? I guess not.

by Ga6thDem 2008-05-16 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: This is just so wrong.....

The reporter wasn't upset by it, for one.

by KyleJRM 2008-05-16 01:12PM | 0 recs
Re: This is just so wrong.....

We're holding politicians accountable for every word? No allowances, no forgiveness, exact words? Okay.

how Sen. Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me.

by BlueinColorado 2008-05-16 01:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Feminism

Pardon me, but you're full of it:

Here are the popular vote totals:

http://abcnews.go.com/politics

Clinton will win the popular vote by June 3rd.

Feminism is set back by a man who repeatedly addresses women [union members, professional journalists and others] as "SWEETIE" and gets a PASS FROM Adoring WOMEN who don't see that as anti-feminist.

So, your CONCERNS about FEMINISM ring hollow--SWEETIE.

by Tennessean 2008-05-16 05:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Feminism

Sweetiegate - TM, Fox News

By the way, where is Hillary's flag pin? Does she not love America? How am I supposed to vote for someone who doesn't express their patriotism?!

by Massadonious 2008-05-16 05:56AM | 0 recs
oh dear me

right from the start you have a problem:

"It's projected that Hillary Clinton will have more popular votes than Barack Obama on June 3rd.  Some news organizations have already declared her the popular vote leader."

please show me a popular vote calculation, specifically one that doesn't ignore caucus states (i know you're not SO "undemocratic" as to want to exclude anyone's voice), that shows clinton ahead. it ain't gonna happen. she will lose by every metric available, including the popular vote.

beyond that, you're call for hillary dem's to the floor is laughable. it would be a small mydd cocktail hour, nothing more. hey, but you should have some fun there, and politics should be fun too. so i'm all for it.

by j cantarella 2008-05-16 02:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh, Dear Me!

please show me a popular vote calculation, specifically one that doesn't ignore caucus states (i know you're not SO "undemocratic" as to want to exclude anyone's voice), that shows clinton ahead. it ain't gonna happen. she will lose by every metric available, including the popular vote.

Oh, dear me, j cantarella. You've apparently missed the popular vote calculations:

Following Hillary Clinton's historic 41-point win in West Virginia, in which she netted nearly 150,000 votes, the popular vote totals from Real Clear Politics (RCP) for the primaries are:

*Total votes cast:  33,391,125
Clinton:  47.7% (HC leads by 29,471 votes)
Obama:  47.6%

Total votes cast, including estimates from the caucus states of IA, ME, WA, and NV: 33,949,071
Obama:  47.7% (BO leads by 80,751)
Clinton:  47.5%

Notes on the Popular Vote:

1. As stated above, there is no authority for disregarding raw votes from Florida and Michigan. Any claim that they should be excluded from popular vote totals is especially problematic given Obama's opposition to re-votes in both states, and the fact that he ran TV ads in Florida in violation of the pledge. Also keep in mind that Obama voluntarily removed his name from the Michigan ballot, against the advice of some of his allies, for political gain in Iowa. As Obama now heads to Florida and Michigan, presumably to campaign for general-election votes for the Democrats, it's increasingly ludicrous to cling to the position that these 2.3 million votes shouldn't count towards selecting his party's nominee.

2. The RCP estimate of popular votes that includes caucus states is skewed towards Obama given the undemocratic nature of caucuses. There are now at least three examples -- Texas, Washington, and Nebraska -- where the candidates were virtually tied in primary elections but caucus results in the same states heavily favored Obama. Two new myDD stories provide excellent analyses about this dynamic, here and here.

3. A blogger also points out that Clinton has now won the popular vote in 195 US Congressional Districts, compared to 187 for Obama. Including Florida and Michigan, it would be 227 for Clinton and 195 for Obama.

A virtual tie:

By June 3rd, no matter how you slice it, this race will be a dead heat.

Clinton is likely to lead Obama (and McCain) among all votes cast in presidential primaries, even when including the skewed caucus results. Obama will maintain his pledged delegate lead, but it will be narrower than it is now, possibly within 100.

Of nearly 20 million votes cast and among 4,000 or so delegates, they will be separated by a fraction on both metrics.

How Superdelegates will decide:

Now, Obama and his supporters rightly point out time and again that delegates, not popular votes, determine who wins the nomination. True, but only if you get 2210 pledged delegates. Since neither Clinton nor Obama will reach that number -- it's the responsibility of the automatic (or "super") delegates to vote at the convention.

Links active at:
http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/05 14/will-of-the-people

by Tennessean 2008-05-16 05:33AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh, Dear Me!

oh dear me, i guess you can't read...? i said: "specifically one that doesn't ignore caucus states". so let's look at your numbers a little more closely (not just a few of the selected ones):

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/democratic_vote_count.htm l

spread:

pop vote total: obama +593,610
w/IA,NV,ME,WA: obama +703,832
w/FL: obama +298,838
w/FL,MI (no caucuses): clinton +29,471
w/FL,MI,IA,NV,ME,WA: obama +80,751

so the ONLY count that has her ahead is one that gives obama zero votes for michigan and doesn't include the caucuses. i thought this was supposed to be an argument that was a rallying cry to hillary supporters to the floor of the convention?? do you really think counting votes like this is going to convince anyone?

good luck with that. it's just not a sound argument.

again, there is not a popular vote metric that includes an estimate of the caucus states with which hillary wins.

and she's lost in the most important metric of all, the one that actually decides the nomination (lest we forget): the delegate count. as is becoming clearer by the day, obama will be far enough ahead to clinch the nomination both before MI and FL are decided (that is, according to the current state of things) and after MI and FL are decided.

the popular vote argument is and will be moot.

by j cantarella 2008-05-16 09:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

We're tired of being treated badly by Obama, his surrogates and his own attitude towards women. "Sweetie" anyone? Ugh.

We're simply not going to have Obama forced down our throats. We'll vote McCain or stay home.

by Ga6thDem 2008-05-16 03:52AM | 0 recs
great idea

so how is giving mccain the choice of 2 more supreme court justices going to affect the court's "attitude towards women"???

i think you need to get some perspective here.

by j cantarella 2008-05-16 04:36AM | 0 recs
Re: great idea

Put a sock in it. This is exactly the kind of arrogant "get in line" crap that is really making us ticked off. If the party isn't that concerned about the supreme court why should I be? After all putting up a sure electoral loser like Obama means that they aren't concerned right?

by Ga6thDem 2008-05-16 04:42AM | 0 recs
Re: great idea

McCain needs you sympathy, he's so disappointed in being denied the opportunity to "beat the bitch".  

You are a kind person

by wrb 2008-05-16 06:49AM | 0 recs
Re: great idea

put a sock in it?? that's intelligent.

and how is this arrogant? please, explain.

i don't think i said "get in line." i'm making an argument about the importance of the supreme court; if all you can say is "put a sock in it," then you're clearly not interested in arguing the merits of your position. hmmm, who's the arrogant one here?

and the party isn't concerned about the SC?? again, if you have an argument to make regarding that, please present it. you just sound bitter.

so your argument is that by obama winning the primary (um, remember that, he won. clinton lost),  the democratic party clearly can't care about the SC?? again, you're gonna need to flesh that argument out a bit, since it really doesn't make sense.

but i gather you're not interested in actually supporting an intelligent position or having reasoned debate; you just want to run around and say "put a sock in it."

have fun with that.

by j cantarella 2008-05-16 08:54AM | 0 recs
Re: great idea

It's not respecting or asking for our votes, it's this will happen if you don't vote for Obama totalitarianism.

The supreme court is gone. That was the 2004 election. All the court needs is a good challenge and roe v. wade will be gone whether anyone likes it or not.

Bitter? Is this the standard Obama talking point? All the voters are bitter? Is that the excuse he's going to use for losing in Nov. It's disrepectful and stupid.

Obama has managed to lead in the primary due to caucuses where college students show up. A lot of this voting was done before Rev. Wright came on the scene too. The DNC knows that Obama is unelectable. The handwriting is on all the polls. They know that he's unelectable yet they want to nominate him? That to me says that the supreme court argument really isn't valid. If they cared about the supreme court they would try to get the one that can win in Nov. not the one that's a sure loser. And don't forget how 2 important swing states are being disenfranchised.

I'm using the facts on hand. You are not. You are apparently drunk on the kool aid. Well good for you.

by Ga6thDem 2008-05-16 09:38AM | 0 recs
Re: great idea

"The DNC knows that Obama is unelectable."

Your entire response to the Supreme Court argument rests on this unprovable assertion.  Got anything else?

Give me one thing that Clinton wants to accomplish in office that you're confident a President McCain would achieve.

By arguing for McCain, you're arguing AGAINST Clinton.  What will you do when she endorses the nominee?  Work against her interests?

by Koan 2008-05-16 11:35AM | 0 recs
Re: great idea

Besides, you guys have already said that you don't need our votes so why should you care? Now, all of a sudden comes the concern about the Supreme court? Should have thought of that before voting for Obama.

by Ga6thDem 2008-05-16 04:43AM | 0 recs
Who is "us"?

You us the first person plural. Who are you speaking for? Aggrieved women? Women in virtually every category except over 65yo voted for Obama in great numbers than Hillary.

Maybe your us is just cranky, Hillary die-hards. But that's not a political constituency. Your point of view doesn't make any sense.

by drmark 2008-05-16 06:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Where are the facts and links?  Which "news" organizations are predicting Clinton's lead in the popular vote?  Since when is it acceptable to just make statements as if they are the truth without providing backup within the text of the diary?  You should add "opinion" to the tags and title until you provide links and facts to backup your statements.

by temptxan 2008-05-16 05:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Popular vote totals:

http://abcnews.go.com/politics

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/democratic_vote_count.htm l

Following Hillary Clinton's historic 41-point win in West Virginia, in which she netted nearly 150,000 votes, the popular vote totals from Real Clear Politics (RCP) for the primaries are:

Total votes cast:  16,680,827

Clinton:  47.7% (HC leads by 29,471 votes)

Obama:  47.6%

Total votes cast, including estimates from the caucus states of IA, ME, WA, and NV: 17,014,911

Obama:  47.7% (BO leads by 80,751)

Clinton:  47.5%

h/t
http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/05 14/will-of-the-people

by Tennessean 2008-05-16 05:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

EV for November as presently projected:

Obama v. McCain
Obama 248
McCain 290

Clinton v. McCain
Clinton 290
McCain 248

The Will of the People:

http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/05 14/will-of-the-people

by Tennessean 2008-05-16 05:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Again, Kerry was winning Florida and Ohio in polls in May of 2004.

Good thing that held up, huh?

by Reeves 2008-05-16 05:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Here is some mojo. You got troll rated by "bitch" for providing some stats.

by grlpatriot 2008-05-16 07:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Crazy Texan

by bitch 2008-05-16 05:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

TEX IS A REPUG

by bitch 2008-05-16 05:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

So should we call Yippies?

Maybe something that refers to Hil.. Hippies?  ... no that's taken.. Clippies...? Fippies?... Wippies?

by wrb 2008-05-16 06:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Are Hillary supporters going to the "floor" to duck sniper fire?

by feliks 2008-05-16 07:16AM | 0 recs
You said it, Texas!

I'm with Hillary all the way to -- the convention floor -- to the White House! Fight like hell, Hill! If the Latte/Insider/Sellout Democrats insist on propping up a wiener, then they all need a good thumpin'. Hillary is a winner, fighting with everything against her, and she is still winning. Put that in your Hope bong and smoke it!

by grlpatriot 2008-05-16 07:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

TD- this is exactly the problem with rants like this in a vain attempt to defend Hillary. You cry sexism, but the sexism only lies with you. "They attack her character and integrity," uh, no sh*t. Its politics. there has been no DEm Presidential candidate who hasn't had their character and integrity attacked. Its part of the game and Hillary and her surrogates have never missed a chance to scold Obama for saying this or that is out of bounds. There is no out of bounds. Thats the point. It was after all Hillary who said if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

The endless victimization and perceived oppression of Hillary supporters is sad. She lost to a candidate who ran a message that resonated with people and in an election that is very much predicated on the idea of a new direction in Washington, running as the inevitbale, experienced candidate was a losing strategy. The very idea of another Clinton follwoing another Bush is antithetical to the mood of the country.Most importantly, however her opponent raised more money than she did. Every fair-minded ovbserver of politics would genrally agree with the assumption that the person with the deepest war chest wins the election, almost without fail. and yet here, none of that matters, sexism is rampant in this country, according to texasDarlin and this and this alone is the reason why Hillary is not the nominee. Reading this it is clear that there is no way that Hillary could have ever been beaten fairly. Its simply a matter of the white man keeping a strong lady down. I am sorry you feel that way, I really am, but you need to stop kidding yourself. Hillary lost this fair and square and every perceived slight and example of irrational hatred for Hillary the candidate is a feeling shared by everyone who has ever tried to run for the PResidency. Thats just a fact.

by AHunch 2008-05-16 07:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

 What perplexes me even more than the obious truth of what you just said is that so many women believe that Hillary has much in common with them beyond 2 X Chromosomes.

by xdem 2008-05-16 07:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

"Put that in your Hope bong and smoke it!"  roflmao, grlpatriot!  May I steal that line?  (With attribution to you, of course.)

by Caldonia 2008-05-16 07:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Absolutely. I'll share credit with NewHampster. He posted a nice little graphic of a blue bong with Obama's logo on it recently. LOL!

by grlpatriot 2008-05-16 07:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary

so IF, IF by August, it is apparent to the superdelegates that EITHER candidate is damaged for the general election....(as is apparent to some of us).....what should they do?.....pick Al Gore

The whole PURPOSE of the convention is to choose a nominee.  Because we are an impatient society, we keep moving the date up.  Why even bother to have a convention is it is just a "beauty pageant"?  The purpose is to choose a nominee.  

It isn't over just because camp Obama and the media say so.

by WolfmanJack 2008-05-16 08:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Sorry but some of us could never vote for any ticket with Hillary on it...that's just the way it is.

She has to be the most devisive politician I have witnessed in my 30 some years of voting. I mean really, she is even in the process tearing her own political party up.

I hope New York dumps her next chance they get...they deserve better.

by GeeMan 2008-05-16 08:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

And that's just how I feel about Obama, GeeMan.

by No Blood for Hubris 2008-05-16 08:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

(Or perhaps I should have said, "That's just how I feel about Obama, sweetie.")

by No Blood for Hubris 2008-05-16 09:00AM | 0 recs
"Cross posted at TexasDarlin"???

So you set up your own blog with that silly, fraudulent name?

I guess "AffluentSouthernCaliforniaDarlin" didn't have quite the same ring to it?

by BlueinColorado 2008-05-16 09:21AM | 0 recs
How would


   the superdelegates turn over Hillary's votes? Obama GOT MORE VOTES!!

  There's nothing to feel aggrieved about. Hillary lost.

by southernman 2008-05-16 10:36AM | 0 recs
Suicide

You ended your screed with this threat:

" 'Backlash' is a real social and psychological phenomenon.  Don't say I didn't warn you."

When I don't get my way, I shout:

"You'll be sorry when I'm gone!!!"

It never does more than get a laugh, though.

by xdem 2008-05-16 10:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Just wait until the Super D's have to VOTE. They can't vote now, they only can vote in August at the Democratic Convention.  They will choose Hillary, as she can beat McCain as the polls show, and McCain Beats Obama (electoral college poll map, CNN).

by JohnnyB 2008-05-16 10:45AM | 0 recs
Sure thing.

And when you wish upon a star, makes no difference who you are.

by GFORD 2008-05-16 04:06PM | 0 recs
Please stop rec'ing this kind of diary

There's nothing constructive here. The intent of this kind of diary is to divide the progressive community in order to strengthen the case for a particular candidate.

It's putting a candidate ahead of our shared values.

And too many Obama supporters fall for it and jump in with fightin' words.

While the scope is obviously very very different, the diary's of Texas Darlin and Alegre are the equivalent of Israeli and Palestinian extremists who try to provoke further conflict because peace and unity are not convenient for their extremist political goals (in this case placing a candidate before our shared values.)

The end doesn't justify the means.

Stop it.

by luckymortal 2008-05-16 10:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

You claim that the popular vote is a better measure of the will of the people, and should therefore be the metric on which the nomination is awarded. I don't agree with this claim, but I can see it as a valid argument.

How can you claim at the same time that Clinton: 328,309, Obama: 0 is an accurate representation of the will of the people of Michigan? The only way the Clinton surpasses Obama in your preferred metric of popular will is by relying on this claim, and it is a horribly flawed claim.

by DesideriusErasmus 2008-05-16 11:22AM | 0 recs
infuriating isn't it?

It's absolutely mind-boggling that anyone would use the popular vote argument when Hillary only leads if you award Obama zero votes in MI.

And the diarist won't dignify this with a response.

The nomination is being "stolen" from Clinton unless she's allowed to:

1) change the rules so that popular vote is the deciding metric

2) change the rules so that Obama gets zero votes in MI

by obsessed 2008-05-16 01:11PM | 0 recs
Theirs more.

Recently I've noticed a few of the H44 crowd (yes, we know who you are) throwing around the idea that since Obama had a national ad that ran in FL, he should be stripped of all his votes there too.

Desperation knows no bounds.

by GFORD 2008-05-16 04:18PM | 0 recs
I meant There's more. /eom

by GFORD 2008-05-16 04:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!
You know, just because you say it, doesn't mean it's true. Those of us who got through our high school math classes understand the situation Hillary's in in terms of both delegates and popular vote, and wishing it away won't get you back to Kansas. Also, I am seriously sick and tired of being called a sexist because I won't vote for your candidate. The question should really be why couldn't Hillary convince ME to vote for her, since I'm a 40 year-old feminist. Maybe I'm not the problem. She also couldn't convince my mother, a 66 year old retiree living in rural WA, or my Aunt, a 68 year old historian and cancer activist living in California, or my adopted sister, a latin american immigrant political junkie. And we're sexist because we made different choices in a contested election? Bite me.
by travelerkaty 2008-05-16 12:37PM | 0 recs
I guess "injustice" is relative

All the kids dying in Iraq under a McCain Administration will thank you for taking your starstruck stand.

by mikeinsf 2008-05-16 02:55PM | 0 recs
If you insist

I suggest you wear comfortable shoes.  You will be standing around a lot but it won't be on the convention floor...this may surprise you but the convention is not open to the public, just for delegates.

by GFORD 2008-05-16 03:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

To the convention!  (My new rallying cry.)

Gallup again shows Hillary beating McCain and Obama losing.  when are the superdelegates going to get the message?

by avrdream 2008-05-16 05:20PM | 0 recs
Pretty funny

"Hillary Democrats" will feel aggrieved if the Superdelegates over-turn their votes.  

----

That's pretty funny.

Hillary's been begging the Supers to take it away from Obama for a couple months now.

by Bush Bites 2008-05-16 05:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Onward to the million woman hissy fit, starting in Denver!  This country has no time for sore losers like you.  Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out...

by NJIndependent 2008-05-16 06:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Hillary lost because of Mark Penn, not because people are sexist.   I know Hillary might have made a good president, but her campaign made mistakes early on that cost her the election.

I think people should be angry at Mark Penn, who misdirected her campaign from the beginning.  Now that he's not in the forefront, her campaign is much tighter and on message, but it's too late.

For example, he's responsible for all the mistakes in Hillary's general planning:

Her campaign ran a big state campaign, the campaign she would have to run for the general election.  Obama ran a delegate campaign, the campaign he had to run for the nomination.

Her campaign  planned to win by Feb 5, and they wasn't prepared to run after that, in terms of message, strategy, or fund raising.  Obama had a 50 state plan in mind.

Her fundraising plan was old style political machine.  It turns out that Obama perfected the fund raising machine that Dean developed.  Hillary's campaign didn't develop her internet outreach until the race was essentially over.

These are all things that Mark Penn could have and should have helped with, as the key strategist.

by Kiku 2008-05-16 06:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

you sure this wasn't yesterday's talking point

by IowaMike 2008-05-16 07:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

You call it a hissy fit, I call it democracy. To the convention! We stand with Hillary.

by grlpatriot 2008-05-16 07:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

And although our leader would be gracious in asking us to disregard the injustice, millions of "Hillary Democrats" will be unable to do so.  

So, if Hillary acknowledges that Obama won the primary and asks her supporters to support him in the GE, you still won't be able to?  That's not democracy, that's full-on four-year-old level temper tantrum.

That is the difference between TD and alegre.  Alegre said that as long as Hillary is in the race fighting, she will be fighting for her.  Fine, I don't agree with her smear tactics sometimes, but whatever, as long as her candidate is in the race, she is right - she should be fighting for her.  OTOH, TD says that even after Hillary concedes and asks for you to support Obama against McW, she still won't.  That's just sore loserism and should be considered trolling this site.  If you agree with TD, then you are a troll who should be banned as well.  And don't let the door hit you in the ass, either.

by NJIndependent 2008-05-17 04:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

And win Hillary wins the nomination. Will you supporter her?

by grlpatriot 2008-05-17 05:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!
I think most Obama supporters have been very clear that they would vote for Hillary if she won the nomination. I certainly would. That's not to say I wouldn't be very concerned about her ability to win, given how betrayed many of those new voters and african americans would feel if she got the delegates to overturn the agreed-upon process, but I would definitely vote for her because I strongly support Democrats and progressive policies. In fact, I challenge you to find more than a handful of Obama supporters on this site who have threatened to vote for the Republican or sit out the election, a threat which I hear over and over from Clinton supporters.
by travelerkaty 2008-05-17 06:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

It depends on what level of support you are asking for.  I won't contribute my money or time to her campaign as I would Obama, but I will certainly vote for her over McW every day of the week.  Without a doubt.

by NJIndependent 2008-05-17 01:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

Hillary doesnt have more popular votes than Obama.  You forget caucus states dont count popular vote and his name wasnt on the ballot in Michighan like Hillary promised to do as well.  Oh wait popular vote doesn't select the democratic nominee.  Perhaps if Hillary and her staff knew how primaries work, you know proportionality and the whole nine yards she wouldn't be in the position of loser that she is now.

by Adept2u 2008-05-16 09:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary Democrats to the Floor!

And oh yeah where were all you feminist when Carol Mosley Braun ran.  Guess only white lady Senators count huh.

by Adept2u 2008-05-16 09:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Another Diary for Y'all

Yes, you definitely want to bring attention to that diary!

by obscurant 2008-05-16 09:34PM | 0 recs
A Change of Mind About VP

This may be the very worst thread to post this on but here goes.  I had been emphatic about thinking an Obama/Clinton ticket would be toxic.

I am thinking I was very wrong about that, watching her campaign the last few weeks, with a postitive and powerful campaign message and with Bill not so everpresent, so, at this point I believe they would make a very good ticket together, for what it is worth to anyone.

by mady 2008-05-17 10:44AM | 0 recs
Re: A Change of Mind About VP

I have thought this would be an excellent ticket since NH.  I have thought this is the inevitable ticket since 3/5 (TX, OH).  I still think so.  The two of them have too many complementary strengths for it not to benefit both to be on the ticket together.

by NJIndependent 2008-05-17 01:19PM | 0 recs

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