Uproar and Trolls: A Rewrite

I rewrote this post. Apparently the term "troll" originated in the 16th century to describe political debate and insult in London coffee houses. The term is thrown about too loosely. When I was active in bipolar listservs in the mid-1990s, a troll was a despicable person who joined the group pretending to be bipolar. He often set people against each other, preyed on the vulnerabilities of achingly vulnerable people, pretended to be in crisis, etc. We all knew what the word meant. Who knows what it means in political debate? In my first weeks on mybarackobama, I was accused of being a troll daily. Anyone capable of rational debate is not a troll. We all get intellectually lazy about explaining our principles and policies. It does us good to be challenged.

Parents learn to ignore obnoxious toddler or preschool behavior rather than to make a big fuss about it. Why don't you ignore the people that you consider trolls, don't bother rating their diaries and comments, don't comment on their diaries nor respond to their comments, don't impose timeouts. Concentrate on writing your own diaries

When my oldest daughter was 1 and 2, she pulled hair and dumped sand on people's heads. I finally realized that she wasn't inherently vicious; she just adored uproar. Her criminal behavior only occurred in the presence of parents absolutely guaranteed to go round the twist. She stopped eating sand when her pediatrician looked her in the eyes and told her how important it was to eat enough sand daily to stay healthy.

Real trolls love uproar. If you enjoy the insult game, you can't complain about your comrades in insult being trolls because you obviously relish uproar as well.

Here is what the devil child is doing now.
http://www.ipacademy.org/about-ipi/peopl e/vanessa-hawkins-wyeth

She no longer eats sand, although she has spent a suspiciously long time in African deserts unobserved by me. So there might be hope for trolls and the troll accusers.

Tags: Debate, trolls (all tags)

Comments

44 Comments

Re: Uproar and Trolls

But sometimes being mean to trolls is fun!

by psychodrew 2008-07-12 12:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Uproar and Trolls

But being mean is uproar. If you enjoy snarking at trolls, you should be grateful for their presence.

by redstocking 2008-07-12 12:24PM | 0 recs
But that's just it...

Trolls LIKE it! They crave attention, and they don't give a damn whether it's positive or negative. They'll take whatever they get.

That's why I'm trying to mostly ignore the resident trolls here. I don't want to give them what they're craving. Now THAT pisses them off! hehe ;-)

by atdleft 2008-07-12 12:29PM | 0 recs
Re: But that's just it...

Xactly right.

I don't negotiate with terrorists...

But I will provide background music.

:~)

-chris

by chrisblask 2008-07-12 01:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Uproar and Trolls

Good to see the 'devil child' is working for peace ;) Nice post.

by Roberta 2008-07-12 12:25PM | 0 recs
Good point.

But they're like a train wreck -- horrible, but you can't look away.

by sricki 2008-07-12 12:47PM | 0 recs
You must be humiliated because you support a

flip flopper! Not me!

The trolls are loving uproar. It must compensate for the humiliations of the primaries. Deprive them.

Obama flipped all you guys. But you guys are beyond shame!

I would vote for a Democrat in November. It is unfortunate that Obama is the Democratic party nominee.

Unfortunately even he can not prevent me voting for a Democrat. Obama is a chicago machine politician. Nothing more! Nothing less!

by indydem99 2008-07-12 12:56PM | 0 recs
Re: You must be humiliated because you support a

Is this snark? Serious question.

by MS01 Indie 2008-07-12 01:15PM | 0 recs
Re: You must be humiliated because you support a

Are you drunk?

by Kysen 2008-07-12 01:16PM | 0 recs
Re: You must be humiliated because you support a

I don't recall saying you were a troll. I was lukewarm about both Clinton and Obama, although I supported Clinton. Both are pols. No one but a pol would have the hubris to run for president. Pols flip-flop, say what they think the electorate wants to hear. Obama is a smart pol; otherwise he wouldn't be the presumptive nominee.  Obama was always a compromiser; only the naive could have thought he was more progressive or liberal than Hillary. His Reagan remarks were the tipoff.

Bill Clinton was the last Democratic candidate who was a smart pol, and he certainly was a flip-flopper. The civil rights movement, feminist movement, anti-Vietnam War movement, environmental movement were not led by pols. Only an energized progressive, feminist movement will win real change. That is why I am so frustrated by everyone sniping at each other.

by redstocking 2008-07-12 01:26PM | 0 recs
Obama supporters always claimed that he is

the messiah and not a politician! His positions  are same as Hillary but the guy lied his way through the primaries. He and his supporters claimed the Clintons are racists. He is a two bit politician pretending to be some one else!

by indydem99 2008-07-12 01:33PM | 0 recs
My dog likes cheese.

by chrisblask 2008-07-12 01:37PM | 0 recs
My dog loves to bite people like you!

by indydem99 2008-07-12 01:39PM | 0 recs
Re: My dog loves to bite people like you!

Are these two posts in code? Could someone transliterate?

by redstocking 2008-07-12 01:40PM | 0 recs
No I am being factual!

My dog has very little patience for people who make statements such as:

My dog likes cheese.

by indydem99 2008-07-12 01:53PM | 0 recs
From where I'm sitting...

"My dog likes cheese" made more sense than anything you've posted in this thread yet.

Huh.  Go figure.

by Elsinora 2008-07-12 03:24PM | 0 recs
Elsinora Gets the Prize!

My dog thinks you are very smart.  Licks your face!

:-D

-chris

by chrisblask 2008-07-12 05:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama supporters always claimed that he is

Obama supporters in the primaries were too often  babes in the woods who were ignorant of politics and history. I actually think he is to the right of Hillary. I found the racist charges incredibly offensive.

But I think all presidential candidates are pols pretending to be someone else. However, Obama listens to liberals and progressives, has the interests of working-class  and poor Americans at heart, does not plan on further dismantling the New Deal, is making some enlightened pro-women, pro-family proposals. McCain thinks Viagra is more crucial to the national survival than effective birth control.

by redstocking 2008-07-12 01:39PM | 0 recs
I never claimed that Hillary is not a politician!

I am a Democrat and would vote for the Dem Presidential ticket but that does not mean I should forefeit my right to criticise Obama. He is a hypoctite and should be called so. That is not trollish behaviour. I would hold my nose and vote for the Dem ticket. I have no respect or regard for Obama. I am not going to kiss his ass like Obama supporters.

by indydem99 2008-07-12 01:47PM | 0 recs
Criticism is not trolling

I agree 1000 percent that you should not forfeit  your right to criticize Obama, either as a candidate or as president. Calling him a hypocrite is not trolling behavior. The "I am a Democrat and would vote for the Dem presidential ticket" is the crucial thing.

I was appalled the night of the FISA vote when I went to an Obama happy hour and was expected to participate in Obama rah, rahing. I certainly wouldn't attend any event where I was expected to cheer.

But why assume everyone who is supporting Obama is enthusiastic about him rather than grimly determined to end Republican dictatorship?

by redstocking 2008-07-12 01:54PM | 0 recs
I agree with you

by indydem99 2008-07-12 02:03PM | 0 recs
Re: I agree with you

It's funny that you say this, you can resort to personal insults of our nominee and not consider that trolling behavior, which I strongly disagree with in some cases like your initial post here, but if I was to consistently tell you off (or anyone) with personal insults, that is trollish behavior in many of your crews minds, why is that?

by Dog Chains 2008-07-12 03:54PM | 0 recs
I do not think he has any beliefs!

He is a Shapeshifter.

by indydem99 2008-07-12 01:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama supporters always claimed that he is

Snark, right?

by politicsmatters 2008-07-12 02:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Uproar and Trolls

I get sucked in every time I see them on the rec list.  I've decided to Rec every diary that isn't written by the "nobama" fools with the hope that they will eventually be pushed off of the rec list.    I'll stop when they're gone.

by Renie 2008-07-12 01:21PM | 0 recs
That's the spirit!

by chrisblask 2008-07-12 01:22PM | 0 recs
Re: I apologize for using the word humiliated

I apologize for using the word humiliated. I think Hillary supporters have every reason to be outraged by the media and netroot treatment of Clinton. I certainly am. But it has inspired me to commit myself to a new feminist movement, not waste time fighting with people whose basic politics are probably similar to mine.

I spend six months posting dozens of emails to my daughters arguing that they misperceived Obama. I could have posted the best of them to my blogs and diaries, boasting about my superior insight into Obama. But instead I joined mybarackobama, blogged frequently, and established two groups that are safe havens for former Hillary supporters. Any email or blog post that bashes Hillary is trashed. I have absolute control of the groups. I have reported Hillary bashing posts on other groups as objectionable content.

by redstocking 2008-07-12 01:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Uproar and Trolls

Well, I usually didn't interfere in sibling squabbles unless blood was involved.

by redstocking 2008-07-12 01:41PM | 0 recs
I can't decide who are the trolls

I think I better put the "she who laughs, lasts" quote back on my signature. Or better still, Jane Austen's, "For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbours, and laugh at them in our turn?"

Maybe we should explore the similarities between our relationship with our siblings and our relationship with people we regard as trolls. Bashing siblings is always fun.

I can't decide who are the trolls, so I don't know whom to ignore:)

by redstocking 2008-07-12 01:48PM | 0 recs
Disappointed

My diary on whether feminists could be misogynists had a higher caliber of comments. Maybe we all should move over there. Or,  we might enjoy the diary on bipolar disorder:)

by redstocking 2008-07-12 01:56PM | 0 recs
Re: No rating

I am eternally grateful I decided never to rate comments, hide them, or report them as trolling.  I would be agonizing about this thread all night.

by redstocking 2008-07-12 01:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Uproar and Trolls
You are a Rock Star.  I'm certain there are many reasons why this is so.  But it is sufficient for me to claim you as such once I read about the daughter you raised, via your link.
Van Halen in redstocking(s)!
by ChitownDenny 2008-07-12 02:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Uproar and Trolls

ChitownDenny,

You made my day. Can I be Bob Dylan in redstockings? My husband has complained I am not actually wearing redstockings, preferably with a short Catholic schoolgirl skirt. I have another impressive daughter. Google Katherine and "Obsidian Wings". Jane Mayer just published a book: "The Dark Side: The Inside Story of How The War on Terror Turned into a War on American Ideals." Katherine help edit and research the book. She also helped edit, "Guantanamo and the Abuse of Presidential Power" by Joseph Margulies. Her law firm is suing Blackwater, and she is only 29 years old.

by redstocking 2008-07-12 02:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Uproar and Trolls

Hello, Bobby!

by ChitownDenny 2008-07-12 02:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Uproar and Trolls

Um, should be:  Hello Bobbie!

by ChitownDenny 2008-07-12 02:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Priorities

My diary on "discovering childhood bipolar disorder" is by far the most important one I have posted, and only my friends have recommended it, and  7 people have commented.

The Soviets used to drug political resisters and lock them up in psychiatric gulags. We are doing that to our kids. Doesn't anyone care?

by redstocking 2008-07-12 02:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Uproar and Trolls

Being manic/depressive myself..
there are times I can brush off the noquarter folks..and times that the "fuck'em" attitude plays out..

Saturday afternoon music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i48BP1PUo FI

by nogo postal 2008-07-12 02:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Uproar and Trolls

That was fun, thanks. I should post some Phil Ochs and Tom Lehrer songs.

by redstocking 2008-07-12 02:29PM | 0 recs
Substance vs. Judgement

A common practice on Mydd (and other blogs) is try to discern the motivation of the diarist rather than respond to the substance of the diary.  

Its a mistake.  When you put your intellectual energy toward responding to the logic (or lack there of) in a diary, you don't have to decide whether or not its written by a troll.

I read a lot of diaries on Mydd.  Very few strike me as trollish.  The ones that do, I just ignore.  All the others, I take at face value.  I assume that the diarist actually believes her/his argument.

If its a subject I find interesting, I read and perhaps offer a comment.  If I think there is an obvious flaw in the argument, I try to point it out in the most compelling way that I can.  (Though I don't often succeed.)

Give people the benefit of the doubt, for goodness sake.  Maybe you really really really don't agree with their point of view.  But from my perspective, its the Admins' right to decide which conversations they want to host and which they don't.  

Any time the Admins say there's a conversation they don't want to have here, we should all be prepared to move that conversation elsewhere.  Until that point, forget about trying to decide whether someone is a troll or not.  Begin from the presumption that the diarist's are speaking from their heart and true beliefs.

by dbrown04 2008-07-12 02:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Substance vs. Judgement

Thank you for some very useful advice. When I was active in bipolar support groups, a troll was someone who pretended to be a manic depressive and got his kicks causing mischief, setting people against each other, pretending to be in crisis--a  destructive creep who could really hurt achingly vulnerable people. On political blogs, I am beginning to realize the term is used as a substitute for thinking, as a way to play the insult game, to egg people on.  

by redstocking 2008-07-12 03:32PM | 0 recs
Interesting perspective

Your parallel between behavior in support groups and blogs is an interesting and informative one.  I think I'll add families to the list.  Gaining control by creating chaos is a behavior that I have a lot of personal experience with.

I wonder, though, whether the Admins at Mydd are going to let their site be pacified by a bunch of wise old ladies.  ;)

BTW: I like your sig line.

by dbrown04 2008-07-12 04:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Uproar and Trolls

Redstocking, I respect your views but definitely disagree when it comes to supporting a candidate who abandoned progressive and democratic principles  (e.g. free speech, intolerance for sexism, the sanctity of all votes) during the primary season.

About the racial politics during the primary, I don't believe the Clintons are racists (I'm NOT accusing you for saying they are!).  Since I'm a great admirer of Jesse Jackson and his work over the years--and since I voted for him in 1988 when he ran for the presidency--and since he won 11 primaries (a first for any African American), I didn't see how referring to Obama and Jesse Jackson in the same sentence was racist.  Like other persons of color, I have a radar for racism, but believe me Clinton's statement about Obama winning the S.C. like J. Jackson was NOT racist.  

Also, I agree that Obama is and has always been to the right of Sen Clinton--his FISA vote makes the point.  

About the "trolling" issue: Have any pro-Obama trolls been censored or banned from this site?  I'm referring to those who insult or otherwise try to intimidate dissenting view points when it concerns Obama, his slippery character, and his shifting positions.  
I wonder . . . .

by trixta 2008-07-12 03:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Uproar and Trolls

As you can see, I rewrite my diary as I changed my mind about what is really going on with trolling.

I agree entirely with you about the Jesse Jackson statment. Jumping on Clinton for her explanation of LBJ's role in the civil rights movement was so ignorant that you have to question people's motives.

I am not happy about Obama. I find it excruciatingly painful to see the progressive blogs finally seeing the light when Hillary supporters were banished for speaking the truth 10 months ago. But I have been voting for Democratic presidential candidates as the lesser of two evils all my life. And McCain needs to be crushingly defeated.

I hope Obama selects Clinton as his VP nominee, although I have no trust that he has the sense to do that.

by redstocking 2008-07-12 04:02PM | 0 recs
I want reasonable party unity

and reasonable support for our democratic nominee.

The trolls need to be banned or called out as such.

by missliberties 2008-07-12 04:36PM | 0 recs

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