[Updated] Keep Secretary Gates On For Awhile

Crossposted at the Motley Moose

I expect I'll take some hits for this one, but it's an honest conclusion that I've held for months.  Nothing has changed my mind and I don't think anything will.  The only complaints are political, and I'm fighting for policy here.

Robert Gates, our current Secretary of Defense, is a foreign policy realist.  What this means is that he frames the whole of international relations as a question of what's actually going on and what can this country actually accomplish.  We have interests, and those interests must be secured.  This will mean doing business with bad people in bad places, from time to time.  Remember, Gates is one of Bush 41's people, and he was brought in to clean up W's mess.  Gates did NOT want the job, and had turned down a prior appointment by President Bush just the year before.  He rather liked Texas A&M.

Bob Gates has been an incredible improvement over his predecessor.  I want to be clear about this, folks.  Gates has done his job better than I thought anybody, even Superman, could have.  He hasn't won the wars or brought us all cotton candy or anything, but he has competently run the Defense Department and has managed to take on the top Air Force brass.  He's been very credible.

I've got several friends and relatives in uniform.  Without exception, every single one of them wants Obama to keep Gates on awhile (though not indefinitely).  Almost every one of those folks I've consulted is a Democrat.  Gates has been taking pretty good care of his people, and that counts for a lot in my eyes.

A buddy of mine is working on his doctorate in some kind of medical engineering at Texas A&M.  While Gates was president of A&M he stopped by my friend's lab.  He chatted with my friend for a few minutes, and my friend says that Gates comes across as a very level-headed and intelligent man.  Moreover, Gates seems to know what he doesn't know, and he asks very good questions.  He also listens to the answers.

Continuity matters in wartime.  Our folks in uniform spent most of the last seven years under Secretary Rumsfeld, a man of some positive qualities and accomplishments in the job (his focus on a leaner, faster, more mobile force was helpful in certain aspects of the early phases in both Afghanistan and Iraq), but the man basically browbeat the Pentagon into submission.  Rumsfeld set out to remake the .mil in his own image.  He had some success, and that success lead to our failures.  That man couldn't plan the postwar, and showed little inclination to have anyone else do it.  Rumsfeld cost American soldiers (to say nothing of Iraqis) their lives.

The point is that the military, the actual rank and file, think very highly of Gates as far as I can tell.  He's not an ideologue (as pertains to how he does his job, I'm not referring to his personal politics).  He's taken on the top guys at the Air Force, which frankly needed to happen.  The Air Force accidentally sent nuclear weapon parts to Taiwan, who absolutely did NOT want them (kinda pissed off the Chinese!) and have had other issues as well.  Gates has been a superb Secretary of Defense, and he's done this under the worst president in living memory.

I contend that President Obama should keep Gates on as Secretary for perhaps a year, with his current deputy being replaced by Gates' eventual successor, whom Gates would bring up to speed during that caretaker period.  Let's face it, there is some reluctance by many in the military to trust a liberal Democrat as president.  I think keeping Gates on would do one hell of a lot to smooth over the transition, to say nothing of the fact that he's doing a good job.

Many of you will likely oppose this because leaving a Republican in the cabinet, especially as SecDef, could be seen as sending the message that the Democrats aren't credible on defense issues.  So be it.  I don't think we should put politics ahead of policy when it comes to warfighting.  This wouldn't just be a token of bipartisanship, nor would it be simply saying "Putting Country First." If President Obama does this, he will be putting country first.  I've got too many friends and family in uniform to accept anything less.

Thoughts?

[Update]Friends, I'm not apologizing for my views. For those of you with whom I disagree, I say this: we can disagree without being disagreeable. Please remember that. Heterodoxy and all that. I am one of you, but I will not always agree with the majority of you.

Tags: robert gates (all tags)

Comments

41 Comments

Tips?

For keeping the only sane guy in an otherwise insane Administration?

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-10-20 12:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Keep Secretary Gates On For Awhile

You'll get no argument from me. I think it would be a smart move especially for the near term.

by jsfox 2008-10-20 12:37PM | 0 recs
Gates was also well-liked and respected

at Texas A&M by most, including those who recognized a need for the University to move forward on issues of diversity and social justice, and he, perhaps uniquely, had the political heft to move the campus forward on those sorts of issues.

While my alma mater is still a far more conservative place than most other Research I institutions, Gates receives a lot of credit for liberalizing the place; so much so that his successor is, almost inconceivably, a woman of color.  That wouldn't have happened if Gates hadn't been there first.

He may be a Republican, but Gates is no neo-con and he'd be a good choice to stay in place.

by aggieric 2008-10-20 12:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Gates was also well-liked and respected

Second this. As an Aggie I was sad to see him leave -- though I think we've found a very capable replacement, fortunately, she's not Gates -- but as an American I was hoping he could do a great job as SecDef -- and he's exceeded expectations.

I wrote a few posts on this a long while back. If there's anyone on Bush's team to keep on, it'd be Gates -- and that's largely because I don't see him on Bush's team at all, really, but on America's team, just appointed by Bush.

Texas A&M has benefited twice by bringing in apparently conservative people with strong military ties -- Earl Rudder, then Robert Gates -- to make sweeping changes that liberalized campus. Rudder broke the all-military restriction and opened A&M up to women; Gates greatly broadened diversity and pushed for enormous improvements in faculty size and quality.

I'm a Gates fan. I do see him as holding the position in a defined transitional role -- there are a number of Democrats who'd be great as SecDef, but continuity at this time would be a great move.

by Texas Gray Wolf 2008-10-20 04:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Keep Secretary Gates On For Awhile

no

by Alice Marshall 2008-10-20 12:57PM | 0 recs
Yes

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-10-20 12:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Yes

And so the Internet's noble tradition of "Even Stephen"-style commentary continues...

by username 2008-10-20 07:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Keep Secretary Gates On For Awhile
I say no too.
For the simple reason that I'm sure the Democratic party has similarly intelligent people that are well versed in Iraq, and international politics, as well as experience with the military- General Clark comes to mind as one.
We have transitioned through administrations while in war before, why should this one be different?
Let's put someone in there that supports Obama's policies (and not Bush's) as soon as possible.
by skohayes 2008-10-20 01:15PM | 0 recs
Clark legally cannot hold that post

IIRC, there are restrictions on flag officers getting that sort of job, something like ten years out of uniform first.  He hasn't hit that yet.

Also, Gates is not pushing Bush's policies.  Gates is one of the people moderating Bush's policies.  Bush has been a good deal less insane, vis a vis foreign policy, since Gates was confirmed.  Think about it.  Heard any more "Axis of Evil" speeches lately?  Have we invaded Iran?  Many thought we would have by now.

Just sayin', he's actually doing what Colin Powell intended.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-10-20 01:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Clark legally cannot hold that post
Yeah, you're right about Clark, I had forgotten that (since the primaries and all). Too bad.
 Gates is against invading Iran, and his influence (and Rice's) helped stop that idiotic move ( I hope), as well as the neocons fall from grace the last few years.
Anyway, this rumor has been floating around for months and Gates could be a benefit to the Obama administration when working with the Republicans in Congress (they can't call Gates a traitor or unamerican after 3 years under Bush, can they?).
So I can see your point, I would just rather have someone that supports Obama's policies.
by skohayes 2008-10-20 01:45PM | 0 recs
Haven't we been pandering to the GOP...

...long enough?

With an even broader majority in both houses, since when do we have to worry about pandering to the G.O.P.?

Furthermore, how can folks here support removing people like Pelosi and Reid and simultaneously support keeping someone like Gates around?

That's just illogical. There are many, many good Dem's and Independents--and even other Republicans--around that'd be better than Gates.

This election is about "change" dammit!

Let's change our position on Guantanamo. Let's seek a solution in Iraq that doesn't involve bribing tens of thousands of Iraqis with $300/monthly payments to not plant IED's and to not kill one another. Let's reinstate our great commanders, like Fox Fallon, back to the leadership roles they so rightly deserve.

What's this diary doing on a Democratic/Progressive blog?

by bobswern 2008-10-20 03:28PM | 0 recs
Bob, I think I see the problem

You see this as a hypothetical pander to the GOP.  I see this as a hypothetical pander to the troops and to pragmatism.  The man is good at the job.  That's why I want him to stay awhile.   The fact that he's a Republican isn't the point.  Morale among the troops matters more to me than how our base feels about it.

They're fighting two wars with very little real support from their government.  They finally get a boss who gets it, he gets enough time to make some improvements from the top and he gets tossed for what they will see as a highly political replacement.  It will hurt morale and it will hurt their effectiveness.  If Gates has a little time to ease in his (Democratic) replacement it will go over very well with the troops.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-10-20 04:10PM | 0 recs
Right. We have other good choices.

When Obama takes office, he needs to begin the discreet purge of the DOD and State of the Bush appointees.  I can see the argument for continuity, but at this juncture, I don't think we need or want continuity.  Not with the Bush administration, not even its less insane parts.

And why would we want continuity?  What pressing part of the Bush foreign policy do we need to be continuous with?  Iraq?  Afghanistan?  Iran?  There is nothing there to keep.  We need to get out of Iraq quickly and as painlessly as we can, giving a short time constraint, we need to try to chill the tensions with Iran, and we need to finish the job on the Pakistan border and then get out of Afghanistan.  We need to wind down the whole perpetual War on Terror and its concomitant massive hemmorhage of money to right-wing paramilitary welfare groups like Blackwater and KBR.  And then we need to focus on fixing America's business.  Continuity doesn't get us there.

by Dumbo 2008-10-20 02:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Right. We have other good choices.

I hate to be the devil's advocate especially when I don't know if I really want Gates to remain.  But there is a historical reason to keep him on in the near term.  The change for change's sake policy reminds me of what Bush did in 2000.  He discredited and ignored all the work that Clinton had done to try to catch and bring Bin Laden to justice before 9/11.  I would hate to see another "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the US" report ignored again.  If Gates is capable, honest, and willing to help Obama to enact the changes needed, then it is worth considering, at least, his retention for a period of time.

Please be clear, I am not advocating that this is what Obama should do, but that Obama should consider keeping on any person that is in a critical position (such as sec of def) who is doing a good job at least long enough to transition to a person who is more in tune with what policies Obama feels are right in regards to that position.

This would not be change for change's sake, but change for the people's sake.  That is what we need today.  As obama says, "we need to work together" to fix the problems in this country.  There is no room for a hard ideological stance when it puts the future of this country in jeopardy.  That is what Bush gave us for 8 years, and that is the choice this November:

More of the same, or change we can believe in?

by Why Not 2008-10-20 03:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Keep Secretary Gates On For Awhile

No way.  His Pentagon just submitted a budget calling for $450 biliion more in the next 10years and they openly admitted that it was really political, not military requirements.  This would be even worse than Clinton leaving Powell in charge, and we see where that got Big Bill.  Powell sandbagged him ASAP.  Not just no, but hell no.  There also need to be major changes in the make up of JCOS.  Lots of retirements please.

by Demo Dan in Dayton 2008-10-20 02:12PM | 0 recs
couldn't agree more

with something like defense, things like these don't work, specifically because GOPers have such a different foreign policy outlook. You made a great point about Powell vs. President Clinton. That led to the "gays in the military" disaster along with Black Hawk Down, during which Powell was along for the ride right before it.

by Lakrosse 2008-10-20 07:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Keep Secretary Gates On For Awhile

I'd thought about this issue as well.  I think most would agree that Gates has been far better as SecDef than Rumsfeld.

My problems with it, though, as as follows:

  1. It reinforces the "Democrats can't handle defense" meme.  Like when Clinton put Cohen (a Republican) in charge.
  2. Obama's change message was initially most focused on Iraq.  Even though the economy now looms larger, how does keeping Bush's guy at Defense demonstrate change?
  3. Are we engaging in the soft bigotry of low expectations?  Again, I agree he's a realist, he's better than Rumsfeld, not hyper-partisan, etc.  But is that really the best we can do?
  4. What is there to gain from doing this?  There are presumably other competent people, and I don't think keeping Gates at defense is going to make Republicans any more accepting of the Obama-Biden Administration.  

by bosdcla14 2008-10-20 02:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Keep Secretary Gates On For Awhile

Who cares about memes? If Obama decides to keep Gates it means we won the election so what difference is a meme going to make? Republicans make shit up anyway to attack us. I don't see how keeping a competent R as sec dev for the sake of continuity is really going to hurt D's in an election 2-4 years later.

As for continuity. Its pretty important during wartime. Instead of spending six months getting a new person, new staff, etc up to speed--time which could prove crucial with afghanistan on the brink and Iraq unstable--we keep things rolling. Continuity in this case doesn't mean convenience, it means people's lives--soldiers, civilians,etc, as well as money. Gates has gone on the Hill and stood up to Bush. That says something about the man's character and although I'm sure there are very competent D's, how do we know they'll stand up to Obama if need be? As long as he's willing to implement Obama's policy I'm all for it. Screw partisanship. Screw memes.

by bigdaddy 2008-10-21 04:48AM | 0 recs
No way.

If Bush pushed the button on Iran, Gates would've been there carrying out his directive.

We're paying tens of thousands of Iraqis $300 to not plant IED's and to not kill one another right now. That's not a strategy; that's political cover.

You are tacitly endorsing this?! And, it's fine and dandy that Gitmo's still up and running, too?

I don't think so.

Meanwhile, it's dawned on some folks in the administration that...yeah...maybe we should've paid more attention to Afghanistan.

Gosh! What a concept...

Too little, too late.

Compared to Rumsfeld, whom you do somewhat apologize for (despite comments to the contrary), Sarah Palin might have looked good running the Department of Defense! So, naturally, Gates looks just shock 'n awesome.

It's all relative.

And, relatively speaking, come January 20th, everyone needs to go. Every single one of these Bush rubber stamps.

Having read this diary now, I can say that I put your politics in different light, too.

Or, is endorsing/supporting the removal of Fox Fallon--perhaps the greatest military commander of our generation--from his command a good thing? Apparently, the diarist thinks that's okay.

I think that royally sucked.

We can do better after January 20th. And, we will do better...with better people running the show.

Mediocrity is not a goal in President Obama's administration. It may be for some of his supporters, however.

You might want to rethink this diary.

by bobswern 2008-10-20 02:47PM | 0 recs
Re: No way.

If you think that Gates can close Gitmo over the objections of Bush & Cheney, I have some bridges I'd like to sell you.

I agree with Reap.  Gates has been a moderating influence and he's pretty damned competent, whether you agree with him on everything or not.  I'm confident that if Obama orders some changes of direction, Gates will execute accordingly.

I don't know who Obama has in his camp with high-level, credible military policy background.   I was a hell of a lot more comfortable with Hillary's crew.   Wes Clark may play a role somewhere but I don't know that SecDef is it.

Good post, Reap.  

by InigoMontoya 2008-10-20 03:22PM | 0 recs
Fox Fallon would be a great...

...Secretary of Defense...one of dozens better than anything we have now.

This post isn't so great...any continuity regarding anything about GW's administration is not something we should even be considering now.

This election is about change. CHANGE!

by bobswern 2008-10-20 03:32PM | 0 recs
Re: No way.

Funny you should mention, I am convinced that Gates actually made an attack on Iran a legal impossibility for the Bush administration early last year.  As I've diarised before I don't believe a conventional attack on Iran would achieve the implied objective of crippling their well protected nuclear program and according to our current war plans and chain-of-command the SECDEF is the only other official whose assent the POTUS requires for a pre-emptive nuclear strike.

I believe that Gates let the Bush administration know such agreement would not be forthcoming around the time of his 'just another day in the Persian Gulf' comment in February of last year.  The smile said it all.

Whether that suggests he would be a good choice as SECDEF for Obama's first term is an open question but it certainly doesn't disqualify him.  Given the likelihood of some new national security challenge early in Obama's tenure it may not be such a bad idea.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-10-20 03:41PM | 0 recs
I hate to be redundant here...

...but, for emphasis, if nothing else...restraining someone from pushing the button on a "pre-emptive nuclear strike" does not make someone qualified to be the SecDef in the Obama administration.

Sanity is a basic qualification in everyday life.

Are we sitting around here saying since Gates was the only sane person that kept us from nuclear annihilation that this should be a reason to keep him on?

Alrighty then...could we set the bar a little lower, please? Is that even possible?

by bobswern 2008-10-20 03:50PM | 0 recs
Re: I hate to be redundant here...

Well, it seemed a pretty important 'bar' at the time and there didn't seem to be many serious domestic political obstacles to such an attack either, even among some high-profile Democrats.  As an example of moral courage it seems to stand on it's own merits, whether it is true or not is a matter of discernment.

The real question is what is best for Obama's interests, if some national security issue 'blew up' in the first month of his presidency?  A 'caretaker' appointee of the Bush administration in this important and sensitive position, especially one in solidarity with the new administration, could have some definite benefits, both politically and from the point of view of operational continuity.  It's a matter of judgement and responsibility as much as political opportunity.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-10-20 04:01PM | 0 recs
So, keeping G.W. from pressing...

...the button, starting WWIII, is grounds for keeping someone around in a new administration?

Can you set the bar any lower?

IMHO, not an acceptable argument, sorry.

by bobswern 2008-10-20 03:35PM | 0 recs
Re: So, keeping G.W. from pressing...

Curiously, though, that's exactly the kind of thing his numerous detractors here are criticising Powell for not doing.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-10-20 03:54PM | 0 recs
And, here's more choices...

former Senator Nunn, Senator Hagel, Senator Webb...there's a lengthy list...all better choices...

by bobswern 2008-10-20 03:37PM | 0 recs
Bob, dial it back a notch

We can disagree without being disagreeable.  You know that and I know you do.  Gates has been a change at the DoD, and not a small one.  If you think he's a bad choice, that's fine (and hardly surprising) but I do not appreciate your tone here.

Change does not require tossing out what's actually working.  And as for Gitmo?  Nobody outside of it wants it shut down more than me.  It's my understanding that Gates isn't much of a fan either.  You'll recall he wasn't SecDef when they opened that fucking abyss.

Bob, he's done good work.  Please understand that I very specifically stated that I would want a caretaker period, no more than a year.  And the policies would change to precisely those Obama wants.  If Gates can't sign on, then he'll obviously not be kept on.

I ask that you be open-minded enough to treat my blog with a little more respect than you have.  You don't have to agree with me to accept the fact that I've got an argument.  So do you, and I freely admit it.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-10-20 03:48PM | 0 recs
Your comment is inappropriate.

You posted this diary, not me.

You're proposing that we keep someone on from the Bush Administration--and a high-ranking member of the cabinet, at that.

The primary argument here, in the comments, is that he restrained Bush from pushing the button (and starting World War III with a pre-emptive nuclear strike; that's not an argument to keep him on, in my book).

If you expect it to go unchallenged, then you're mistaken.

Admittedly, this place can sometimes be an echo chamber. But, not tonight...not on a subject such as this. Sorry.

Admonish someone else please.

by bobswern 2008-10-20 04:00PM | 0 recs
Bob, he's done good work

The Defense Department is competently executing the orders it has been given.  The SecDef has pushed back where he could against the worst excesses.  Even liberal Democrat friends of mine in uniform all say the same damned thing: he gets it and they want him to stick around.

Gates is precisely the kind of person that Bush ignored going into the war.  He's the only member of this Administration I would even give a passing grade, and frankly I give him a B+.  Find me an error he's made, please.  I don't know of one.

Obama's appeal is change, and that will be his mandate.  That word is somewhat amorphous and non-specific.  Is that change a set of new policies or a new tone and approach?  I would think it is both.  If, and I wanna stress this is not a given, but if Obama and Gates can sit down, hash things out, and agree on how we go forward then I want him to stay on a little while.

Even a busted clock is right now and again.  The fact that Gates works for Bush does not change the quality of his work or his excellent approach to his job.  I say this as someone who'd probably give up his left hand to have stopped this damned war from starting, and all the rest of it.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-10-20 04:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Keep Secretary Gates On For Awhile

I have read through the diary and every comment.  And I see little actual hard evidence to suggest that Gates has pushed back hard, or is truly competent for that matter.  I'm willing to entertain the idea that he has and he is.  But making statements about Iran and Guantanamo that are one degree separated from the administration's official positions are not close to enough for me.

Now please, I am not saying Reaper's position has no merit.  I'm saying that I have seen no real evidence other than individual opinions based on discussions and facts to which I am apparently not privy.  I'll be the first to admit that serving in the Bush administration - and in defense no less, the scene of Bush's biggest mistakes (and yes, the surge and the BS in Afghanistan since Gates took over are huge mistakes) - is a big negative to start.  And I don't see the positive evidence to overcome that.

by edparrot 2008-10-20 04:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Keep Secretary Gates On For Awhile

So long as Gates is willing to work with an Obama administration and not at cross purposes, I agree.  There are so many political appointees that need to be purged (like, oh, the entire top several layers of the DOJ), it would be rash to take on a million projects at once.  Gates was a very non-partisan choice, he's been a good moderating influence after Rummy, and there's nothing wrong with keeping an evil keel while the Obama folks figure out exactly what approach they want to take.

by Dreorg 2008-10-20 04:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Keep Secretary Gates On For Awhile

'Evil' keel?  Forgivable Freudian slip, to be sure.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-10-20 05:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Keep Secretary Gates On For Awhile

Hah!  Awesome!

by Dreorg 2008-10-20 06:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Keep Secretary Gates On For Awhile

As I read this, the key reason for retaining him is that the troops want to keep him, is that correct?  If so, then he HAS to be replaced.  The military/Pentagon has been WAY out of control for a number of years.  Reassertion of rational civilian control of the military is essential.  The names mentioned above are also absolutely out of bounds.  Sam Nunn the Powell enabler under Clinton?  ummm NO.  Senators Hagel and Webb Republican and former Republican.  No and No again.  If I had my way Dennis Kucinich would be in charge of the Pentagon on Jan. 20.

by Demo Dan in Dayton 2008-10-20 05:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Keep Secretary Gates On For Awhile

Wow reaper we agree on something....

And its you being pragmatic at that...

=p

by dtaylor2 2008-10-20 05:13PM | 0 recs
at first i thought...

this was a jokey diary title.  and then i read on and started rubbing my eyes to make sure that i was at mydd.  first the hailing of powell as a hero and then suggestions of bush cabinet ministers in a potential obama administration????

i need some advil.

by canadian gal 2008-10-20 05:14PM | 0 recs
CG, could you mail me a couple? n/t

by bobswern 2008-10-20 05:41PM | 0 recs
No.

Part of the issue is that we need to change the overall strategic posture of the Pentagon, and by far the simplest way to do that will be to install a new leader there who has taken that posture as a personal mission, and will press for it among the brass.

Gates hasn't been a total buffoon, which is above average for this administration (he and Norm Mineta can make tee-shirts or something to celebrate), but his presence would prevent someone absolutely committed to changing our military's direction from getting his feet wet, and the institutional holdover effect of keeping Gates there (while, presumably, restaffing the sub-cabinet offices) just seems like an unnecessary burden.

by Jay R 2008-10-20 08:09PM | 0 recs
Re: [Updated] Keep Secretary Gates On For Awhile
If Gates is willing to stay on for a year then I say go with it.
Obama faces an immense task in rebuilding our foreign policy establishment. And while I can't deny that partisan ideology hasn't infected the military, the military is probably the least infected institution. Duty, honor, country are truly its overriding guiding principals.
So much authority and power has been ceded to the military (because it was the only effective institution standing), the other institutions need to be rebuilt before restoring it. To minimize the turmoil that will involve must be part of the goal. Maintaining a popular and effective Sec Of Def. does some of that. As we draw down in Iraq the strain of the military will reduce allowing an extension of the transition.
The military is also the institution that has retained if not enhanced its reputation domestically. Reassuring the public during a period where the military will have to be deemphasized is also something that should be accomplished.
What I would like to see is Wes Clark named as NSA. From that position he can oversee the disentangling of the military as the support structures are rebuilt and begin the longer term reenvisioning of the military, assuming DOD after Gates.
by Judeling 2008-10-20 09:41PM | 0 recs
Re: [Updated] Keep Secretary Gates On For Awhile

Clean sweep

Nothing less

No cover ups

by wblynch 2008-10-21 04:29PM | 0 recs

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