An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary polls

(cross-posted at Daily Kos)

[Author's note: This is a hell of a long post...apologies beforehand!]

I have long espoused the views that polls in the Democratic presidential primary are not as important as the media (and the blogosphere, to some degree) makes it out to be. Nevertheless, we now stand barely 6 months from the Iowa caucuses (unless they are moved up earlier), so I figured it would be a good time to take a look at what the national polls are telling us about the race for the Democratic presidential nomination at this point in time. It was around this time in the 2004 election cycle that Howard Dean began his meteoric ascent in the national polls, which then remained largely unchanged until John Kerry's victory in Iowa. That being said, the dynamics around the race in 2008 are quite a bit different. I'll summarize the differences to keep in mind, then turn to discussing the national polling that has been done to date - and what it means for the candidates so far.

<u>2008 != 2004</u>

The first - and most important - factor to keep in mind is that this election will not be like the last. Why? The biggest factor, first and foremost, is that George W. Bush will not be on the ballot. Due to this, I think there will be a much less likely scenario where you have a "Dated Dean, Married Kerry" situation that happened. Because Democrats wanted to dispose of Bush last time around as much as possible, it's been posited that primary voters ended up going for the more 'electable' Kerry instead of either Dean or Dick Gephardt, who were the presumed favorites in Iowa (Dean had the money, Gephardt had the close labor ties and geographical proximity). That's why I think it's less likely that you'll have a similar surge in the Iowa polls, like Kerry did in 2004, in the last couple of weeks in the race.

The next important factor? George W. Bush will be on the ballot. By this, I am referring to the political environment surrounding the 2008 election. Although neither he nor Dick Cheney will be on the ballot, the circumstances that America faces are a direct consequence of their mishandling of the country. And instead of facing Bush directly when his approval was in the mid- to high-40s, he is now sinking into the mid-20s - with nothing to stop his continued descent towards Nixonian levels. The war in Iraq is deeply unpopular, and that has infected the public's view of just about everything regarding the White House and the Republican Party. What does that mean for Democratic primary voters? I think it's also likely that there will be less focus on the 'electability' argument as a result. The general sentiment around the country - whether it's the generic ballot polls, most of the head-to-head matchups, the online trading futures, you name it - is that the Democratic nominee will be elected in November 2008. Therefore, it will reinforce the point I made above; voters will be less likely to vote based on this notion of who is the most electable.

Now turning an eye towards internal party dynamics, I think the biggest difference within the Democratic field this time around is that there are much bigger names. In 2004, Dean was able to catapult himself into the spotlight because none of the other candidates - Kerry, John Edwards, Joe Lieberman, Bob Graham, and so forth - were well-known to the general public. This time around, three Democratic candidates - Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and Edwards - are pretty well-known by the voters, with another prospective candidate (Al Gore) getting a lot of media attention. I think this is the reason why the poll numbers (as you will see below) have been rather static. With so many big players on the stage already, it's hard for a Bill Richardson or a Chris Dodd to break out of the low single digits nationally (although Richardson has been rising slowly in Iowa). It's why, despite 258,000 donors to his campaign (a staggering amount by anyone's measure), Obama has been unable to make steady advances in the polls against Clinton.

<u>Analyzing the Polls</u>

The national polls that I included below are all from data coming from PollingReport.com. In terms of prominent polls that are missing, I was unable to obtain Rasmussen's numbers, as they appear to be behind a subscription-only firewall at their website. That being said, you can view their numbers here at Wikipedia. As another point, I have only included polling data that has ending dates after February 10 (when the last of the 'Big Three', Obama, officially entered the race) and polls that have at least 3 observations between then and the present.

One problem with ARG's methodology is that it includes likely Democratic primary and caucus voters. Does this focus strictly on registered Democrats, or does it include Democratic-leaning independents? A little clarity would be nice. Nevertheless, this poll doesn't show promising trends for either Edwards or Obama. Edwards dropped off quite a bit after nearly catching up to Obama, who appears to have steadily dropped off since officially announcing. Meanwhile, Clinton continues to steadily climb in the polls, commanding a 20-point lead over Obama as of the latest poll.

The NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll shows Clinton climbing back up to a double-digit lead after having just a 5% lead over Obama, well within the margin of error. Again, the glaring error in this poll is that it includes non-Democrats who said they would vote in a Democratic primary. As this varies state by state, it's probably not the best idea to include such factors that make it statistically more difficult to model. I would suspect that Obama's bounce in the April numbers could be attributed to a post-1Q fundraising boost. Nevertheless, it seems that Clinton jumped back up, possibly aided by her strong performances in the 3 debates to date.

Quinnipiac only has numbers that included Gore, so I had no choice but to graph the numbers as given. As you'll see later on, I think that what we're beginning to see is the marginalization (or demotion) of Edwards as a top-tier candidate. Gore's numbers have continued to rise in recent months - winning the Academy Award for "An Inconvenient Truth", releasing his new book, "The Assault on Reason", and his just-completed Live Earth concert series have been giving the former vice president plenty of media attention. Edwards, meanwhile, has only made notable news for the mix-up regarding his haircuts - everyone else in this poll rises except for Edwards in the latest numbers. To boot, Quinnipiac also polled Democratic voters, which presumably includes only registered Democrats. It might have been better to apply a likely voter model.

These numbers from CBS, which are defined as 'Democratic primary voters', are probably a decent reflection of where most primary sentiment is nationwide (although the Big Three were the only named choices) - and it's a boon for Clinton and highly negative for Edwards. Clinton has steadily risen in the polls, likely a product of the debates; Edwards has fallen since April, probably because of the haircut news and possibly because voters haven't been particularly impressed by his debate performances (he's gotten better, but he has only stood out for calling out Clinton and Obama in the second debate over Iraq). Obama has seemingly found a plateau (or floor, perhaps?) at 24%, but this illustrates that the number of donors and the money raised doesn't move sentiment.




The Fox News polls, which I'm generally disinclined to favor - it is Fox News, after all, and the results are from all registered Democrats - but it seems in line with what other polls are seeing - Clinton is steadily increasing her margins, while Gore continues to overtake Edwards despite being undeclared. One additional note is that when Gore is not added as a choice, Hillary Clinton benefits the most. That may surprise many of us in the netroots, where potential Gore supporters are more inclined towards Obama or Edwards. But it's a trend that is playing out in other polls, meaning that much of Gore's support in these polls may not be 'grassroots' support. It may be a result of high name recognition amongst low-information voters, or it could be that there is a lot of 'institutional' support for Gore, so to speak.




CNN's poll is interesting in that some of Clinton's potential rise in the polls is instead given to Gore when he is included in the poll. Nevertheless, while the numbers differ slightly, it's evident that Clinton still maintains a healthy double-digit lead over the other candidates. In addition, Obama doesn't show any real upward trend in his numbers since declaring. It's not clear if the polls are simply missing what appears to be his enormous grassroots support, but it's not showing up in the national numbers. That being said, this poll should be taken a little more lightly than others due to the inclusion of Democratic-leaning independents.




Cook, in conjunction with RT Strategies, includes independents in this poll. It could explain why the lead between Clinton and Obama is lessened, but I don't think it is a big contributing factor. While there is more variability in these numbers, it shows the same trends: with Gore in the race, he overtakes Edwards; without Gore, the top three candidates are all separated by a tangible percentage of voters.




Gallup, compiling data for USA Today, by far has done the most polling for the primaries to date. They are also the only poll to show Obama actually overtaking Clinton at one point (although it is only when Gore is included), although the lead is statistically insignificant. In addition, this poll once again includes leaners, which is disappointing. On to the numbers show a fuller picture: Clinton's lead, contrary to most of the other polls except for Cook, seems to be trending downwards. Obama has trended upwards slightly, but took a hit in the last poll numbers. Edwards has been steady, if not trending down slightly. With the exception of a few dates in April, Gore has led Edwards; again, with Gore out, Clinton benefits the most. I would be inclined to think the June 3rd results were somewhat of an outlier. But USA Today has other interesting numbers to peruse: the results of a direct Clinton vs. Obama matchup.

This seems to confirm the general trends shown above: since Obama's entry on February 10th, he has trended upwards, while Clinton has come down. True, she still leads Obama by 11 points, but that is a far cry from the 29-point lead she had just as Obama declared his candidacy. What is there to take away from this? It's possible that the anti-Clinton forces would benefit by coalescing behind either Obama or Edwards (who wasn't polled in a similar fashion by Gallup) and focusing their attention on the front-runner instead of each other, as seems to be the case online.

<u>Conclusions</u>

* Hillary Clinton remains in a strong position nationally. While I still think that whoever wins Iowa may be able to steamroll, the presence of an effectively 'national primary' on February 5th is undeniable - and makes these numbers somewhat relevant. This bodes well for Clinton, who has been able to maintain her lead despite being outraised in primary dollars by Obama. While some polls show her trending either up or down, she still maintains a healthy lead over her closest competitors.

* Barack Obama must find a way to expand his support. While he has made a splash with his entry into the race, along with raising ungodly amounts of money through an amazing base of support, Obama has barely been able to make the kind of permanent dent in Clinton's edge that he needs. I'd be interested in knowing how many of his donations came from people who are registered Democrats, as it's clear that he can claim support from independents and Republicans. It could just be the Clinton machine being more efficient than Obama's, as he hadn't been planning to run for president until a few months before he announced. Nevertheless, Obama has not seen the numbers on the national scale (or the local polls, either) that he should be seeing.

* John Edwards is being marginalized and is on the verge of becoming a second-tier candidate. It'd be interesting to measure the effect of the haircut snafu - however unfair it was to the candidate (and I thought it was), it seems to have had a chilling effect on his poll numbers (and perhaps his 2Q fundraising as well). He continues to lead in Iowa, but barely - both Clinton and Obama are breathing down his neck, and if he cannot maintain his lead in Iowa and win there, his campaign is dead. Regardless, his declining poll numbers - sometimes into the realm of single digits - is worrisome.

* Al Gore's potential candidacy will have a material effect on this race. If Gore does not enter this race, it will be an immense boost to Clinton's campaign - somewhat ironic, considering that Gore and Hillary Clinton never much liked one another. It is somewhat paradoxical, but having another 'anti-Clinton' candidate like Gore in the race would actually help make it more competitive. I also suspect that Gore's support in these polls is understated, as the average primary voter will remember what happened in 2000 - and then recall that Gore has been right on every single issue since then. Will he or won't he? That's a question that we will not have a definitive answer for until after the Nobel Prize winners are selected. At this point, though, only Gore's entry would have an earth-shattering impact on the primary.

Tags: 2008 elections, Al Gore, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards (all tags)

Comments

174 Comments

Amen.

the analysis echoes my impressions from following these polls over the last few weeks.

by NuevoLiberal 2007-07-08 01:57PM | 0 recs
BTW, very nice work, indeed.

I'll touch base with you on extending this work into a running project.

by NuevoLiberal 2007-07-08 02:18PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008

nice work,polls should tighten but i expect clinton to prevail

by bebe 2007-07-08 02:04PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008

great diary.  bad news for the clinton haters.  but they will say"polls don't matter now". hillary is cruisin.

by terrondt 2007-07-08 03:43PM | 0 recs
Who are these people who support Hillary?

Perhaps I live in some sort of giant bubble, but I don't know ANYONE that is enthusiastic over her candidacy. I know many people who are head over heels for Obama, people who love Edwards, but not a single soul that feels that way about Hillary.

My point is that I think that Hillary's high numbers are a result of the fact that most democrats are not ready to start thinking about 2008, and when asked for a choice they simply go with the obvious. I do NOT think that these numbers reflect Hillary's actual support.

I predict that by October or November, when the majority of Democrats start paying attention, Hillary's numbers will drop significantly and a lot of her support will go to Gore, Obama, or maybe Edwards. I think that she knows this and I think that is why her campaign is so obsessed with this inevitability strategy, they want there to be only one viable choice when people finally start thinking about their vote. This is why the Obama campaign is such a profound threat to HRC - because Obama is in the process of shattering Hillary's inevitability. He has grassroots support and a stunning ability to raise money that overshadows Clinton's money machine by sheer numbers (of donors). The fact that he remains 11 points behind nationally is not yet relevant, because most democrats have not started thinking about the election and have not yet considered him - eventually they will, and many of these people who reflexively answered "Hillary" will change their tune.

So, my point is: if Obama's numbers remain 11 points under HRC by late October, then he really has failed. As it stands now, he is without a doubt succeeding, and all that remains to be seen is whether HRC will succeed in preserving her inevitability, or whether Obama will succeed in giving the base a choice.

by alipi 2007-07-08 02:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Who are these people who support Hillary?

You are probably wrong.How do you explain her lead in the polls in NH where she is leading by 14points,the people over there are engaged and obama isn't leading,same with iowa,nevada,sc.You might be underestimating the impact of his short resume.

by bebe 2007-07-08 02:20PM | 0 recs
no, the people are not engaged yet

The case against Hillary has not been made yet. It will be, and Obama will have the money to make it.

Nevada has never had a caucus this early in the process. Even in Iowa, a lot of regular voters are not that tuned in yet.

by desmoinesdem 2007-07-08 08:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Who are these people who support Hillary?

"I don't know ANYONE that is enthusiastic over her candidacy"

My mom is very enthusiastic about a potential Hillary presidency. She has a ton of respect for Hillary and would love to a woman elected president. She was also very happy with Bill's 8 years of peace and prosperity and thinks a Hillary presidency would be a repeat of that.

by End game 2007-07-08 02:42PM | 0 recs
I know ONE person supporting hillary...

My Republican uncle. Went to an event last nightwith 80 people in attendance. No one is supporting Hillary.

by yann123 2007-07-08 09:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Who are these people who support Hillary?

My point is that I think that Hillary's high numbers are a result of the fact that most democrats are not ready to start thinking about 2008, and when asked for a choice they simply go with the obvious. I do NOT think that these numbers reflect Hillary's actual support.

I think it's just the opposite. Everyone I know who is supporting Hillary is quite engaged in the election, familiar with the three top Democratic candidates, following the news, and talking to friends and family about the election. All like Obama very much and would like to see him become President someday when he has enough experience, but are supporting Hillary because -- for a lack of a better way to put it -- she is ready to lead. The support is strong and all will vote in the primaries.

by hwc 2007-07-08 03:59PM | 0 recs
Intrade

An impressive analysis. I follow the Intrade betting markets as well as the polls, and at the moment Obama is about three points behind Clinton. He has been ahead of her a couple of times recently. Unlike many in the blogosphere I take the betting markets seriously. What do you make of the fact that he is doing so much better there than in the various polls? Obama's recent advance on Intrade clearly reflects his huge success at fundraising, but the people placing bets have access to the polls as well as the fundraising numbers and various other sources of information. So I think Intrade is at least as accurate a reflection of how the candidates are doing as the polls. Personally I don't see why Obama would want to be drawing close to Clinton in the polls at this point six months away from the first voting. If he were having trouble raising money that would give him a good reason, but he is not. In Ameridan politics it is far better to be an underdog for as long as you can. I think Obama is saving his money to make a massive push as the end, and I think this will work.

by herodotus 2007-07-08 02:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Intrade

The Politico recently had an article about manipulation on behalf of Obama at InTrade.  I think that article made a compelling case.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0 707/Selling_Hillary.html

by truthteller2007 2007-07-08 02:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Intrade

Referencing "persistent rumors" and quoting 2 random readers hardly makes a compelling case about anything.

I think the likelier explanation for Obama stocks' surge (and Hillary stocks' slide) is the release of the 2Q fundraising figures and the fact that Obama beat Hillary by about $10 million in primary money. The timing fits and any "manipulation" of the stock market should have already corrected itself by now.

by End game 2007-07-08 03:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Intrade

Intrade is manipulated by a few Obama supporters who are buying and dumping stocks at low rates.  That is indisputable.  This also explains why Obama supporters tout these manipulated numbers, for they were the ones stacking the deck in the favor of their candidate at that site.

by truthteller2007 2007-07-08 03:55PM | 0 recs
Nonsense

There is nothing to the article you recommend so strongly, and the author simply says it is a rumor. He does not even say he believes it. Who is stacking the deck in Obama's record breaking fundraising and his unprecidented number of contributors? You sound like a desperate Edwardian.

by herodotus 2007-07-08 04:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Intrade

I recommend you read and reread the article until its full import is comprehended: a stock expert noticed the manipulation.  

by truthteller2007 2007-07-08 03:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Intrade

That "article" was nothing but a 200 word post from 2 days ago which quoted 2 anonymous readers regarding rumors about the manipulation of Hillary stock.

The supposed expert (reader) says: "Somebody is offering 10,000 HRC contracts at 42.4. That is why there really aren't any bids for her contracts. The total amount of contracts outstanding is 196K so that offer is huge in that context and in general."

So someone dumped a bunch of Hillary stock at a price that still seems about right (today's close was at 42.6, previous close was 43.5). Maybe the person dumped it because s/he lost faith in Hillary's chances after the 2Q fundraising figures came out?

Could it have been a wealthy Obama supporter out to impact the spin and perception about the fundraising news? Maybe, but the case is not made in the article. The author should have provided some stats about how frequent such dumps are, how significant their impact is on the stock and the news spin and whether or not there's an actual pattern here rather than just an isolated incident. As is we are just expected to take the word of an anonymous reader based on his analysis of one single stock dump.

by End game 2007-07-08 06:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Intrade

link?

by markjay 2007-07-08 10:07PM | 0 recs
British numbers

I have been looking at the British numbers, and Hillary has also tanked there while Obama has risen. You must be talking about another British market; can you give a name or a link. Intrade has been shown to be quite accurate historically.

by herodotus 2007-07-09 04:50AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis

I really don't think Gore is going to run.  His recent comments are very strongly pointing into the "no run" direction.

Good analysis of the race form a national level, which shows a widening gap.  That gap becomes even more distinct if you take Al Gore out of the equation.   But the more telling is her performance in the first 5 primary/caucus states, which strongly points to a winning strategy for Clinton.  

by georgep 2007-07-08 02:22PM | 0 recs
what's interesting

is that while there a few polls that show a slow Clinton rise, most of them are cnsistent with nothing at all happening in the race (nationally) since Obama announced.  Look at the plots:  the points just bounce and up down by about 3 points, and the margins of error are 3-5 points anyway. It would be nice you could figure out how to plot error bars on the charts.  

And really, is this lack of movement surprising?  Few people are paying attention, the money raised has not yet been spent on ads, and there's no reason for the average voter to commit to anyone now.  Furthermore, if you were inclined to support Hillary Clinton, nothing has happened to make you change your mind.

by John DE 2007-07-08 02:29PM | 0 recs
One thing that remains to be seen is

how Obama would translate his fundraising superiority into improved poll numbers vs Hillary.

He needs to followup his stunning Q2 numbers with a tangible narrowing of the HRC-Obama margin within 1-1.5 months, per my read, in order to gain the momentum needed to overtake her eventually.

by NuevoLiberal 2007-07-08 02:36PM | 0 recs
Re: One thing that remains to be seen is

how Obama would translate his fundraising superiority into improved poll numbers vs Hillary.

Simple. Obama has to use his money to demonstrate the experience and toughness for voters to trust his abilily to lead the country in a crisis.

That is the whole ballgame for Obama. It is clear as day in the polling internals. It is a very tall challenge because the indisputable fact is that he was a state rep three years ago and does not have any real big league experience.

His campaign, to date, has not done anything to address "the experience thing". If anything, his timidity and vagueness on campaign trail has reinforced the notion that he is not ready...especially in contrast to Hillary who has been tough, confident, and discliplined on the campaign trail.

by hwc 2007-07-08 04:06PM | 0 recs
When's the national primary?

Truly wrongheaded post.

Iowa changes everything.

Why do you ignore that?

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-07-08 02:55PM | 0 recs
Re: When's the national primary?

Although I agree with you that Iowa changes everything, it's not "wrong-headed" to speculate that the drastically altered primary calendar might make national polls more relevant to who wins the nomination.

by Lassallean 2007-07-08 03:00PM | 0 recs
Re: When's the national primary?

it is if there is no proof other than bare opinion. Bowers- whatever one thought of him- would always give a lot more anlaysis to backup his conclusions. This isn't my interest, and I come here to see these kinds of anlaysis, but I am not going to go out and do this. The people who professed to be interested in showing us the state of the rate should- well show us the state of the race in the context of actual real analysis rather than regurgitating polls. What do the polls me- for example- when compared to not just 2004 but other years? Is it really all that different? If so- how? Has anyone been able to pick a candidate based on polls this far out when our primaries? if so- when?

By the way- your point- I could argue would make Big Tent's point even more accurate. That the stacking of the primaries close together gives more weight to whoever comes out of Iowa and NH doing well because that's who will get the positive press.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 03:40PM | 0 recs
let's see:

Iowa

Poll    Date    Sample    Clinton    Edwards    Obama    Richardson    Spread
RCP Average    06/13 - 06/30    -    24.7    25.3    17.3    7.3    Edwards +0.6

Nevada

Poll    Date    Clinton    Obama    Edwards    Gore    Richardson    Spread
Mason-Dixon    06/20 - 06/22    39    17    12    1    7    Clinton +22.0
American Res. Group    06/15 - 06/19    40    16    16    --    6    Clinton +24.0
Mason-Dixon    04/30 - 05/02    37    12    13    9    6    Clinton +24.0

NH

Poll    Date    Sample    Clinton    Obama    Edwards    Richardson    Spread
RCP Average    06/04 - 06/30    -    34.2    21.6    12.0    8.6    Clinton +12.6

FL

Poll    Date    Sample    Clinton    Obama    Edwards    Gore    Spread
RCP Average    06/04 - 06/25    -    37.8    21.8    13.3    --    Clinton +16.0

SC

Poll    Date    Sample    Clinton    Obama    Edwards    Spread
RCP Average    05/08 - 06/30    -    29.5    26.8    15.3    Clinton +2.7

National

Poll    Date    Sample    Clinton    Obama    Edwards    Gore    Spread
RCP Average    06/11 - 06/28    -    37.3    23.0    12.0    15.0    Clinton +14.3

by NuevoLiberal 2007-07-08 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: let's see:

i have no context for this data at all. you really don't get it do you? without context you are just talking out of your ass. down below you will see what i admit i know and what data i need. i admit its an inexact approach, but instead of doing you are playing this one upmanship bullshit, and frankly you are boring.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 07:27PM | 0 recs
Re: let's see:

Look, bruh21, I know you don't like a lot of people here, but can't you be a little more civil?   So, Nuevoliberal (a diehard Gore supporter, btw.) does not share your opinion.  That does not make him a bad egg.    

by georgep 2007-07-09 12:47AM | 0 recs
Re: let's see:

That RCP average leaves out a lot of polls.

by clarkent 2007-07-09 02:03AM | 0 recs
Re: When's the national primary?

As I noted in the comments over at dKos, I do think the state polls are relevant. I'll do a post on Iowa and New Hampshire next weekend - I'm sorry I don't have hours upon hours to compile all this data at once. This took long enough as it is.

by PsiFighter37 2007-07-08 03:12PM | 0 recs
Re: When's the national primary?

Your conclusions are present in THIS diary, not in your subsequent diary.

Your conclusions are based on solely national polls, wioth no consideration of how nbational polls change the moment Iowa returns results.

I stand by moy comment, this is a wrongheaded diary.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-07-08 03:15PM | 0 recs
Re: When's the national primary?

No, I think the conclusions are still relevant.

See you around.

by PsiFighter37 2007-07-08 03:20PM | 0 recs
Re: When's the national primary?

How are the conclusions of this diary that are relevant? More importantly how are they any different than what George and others post on a daily basis here? I didn't see anything new other than what everyone already knew before reading your diary. What new conclusions are you adding?

If you wanted to do something different, why not a more indepth analysis of the various polls from say 1980 through now, and what they have meant at this stage. You don't contextualize your assertions at all other than to tell us that this year is different? I mean you say HRC and Obama and Edwards are much more well known- based on what are you making this assertion?

For that matter- going back to Big Tent's point- how are you able to determine that this year will be different with regard to Iowa than in other years where big candidates were running? There were years in which we did have clear front runners- how does this year differ from those years?

If you are going engage in this analysis provide us a full picture because I have yet to see one diary do that. I am honestly not interested in cherry picking. Where ever the chips fall they fall. But this analysis even for a lay stats person like me, seems a bit weak on showing what it asserts.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 03:36PM | 0 recs
The consumate Iowa diary

has already been done it seems:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/6/13/1812 /34390#readmore

by okamichan13 2007-07-08 07:24PM | 0 recs
Re: The consumate Iowa diary

thank you- when this comes up again i will link to this

by bruh21 2007-07-08 07:28PM | 0 recs
Re: When's the national primary?

The state polls are certainly relevant. The problem, in most states, is that there are so few of them with such whopping inconsistencies, that it's difficult to put any stock in them.

It's not like the national polls where you have 10 pollsters releasing all the time, so you can spot the meaningless outliers. In Iowa and SC, I have no idea what's real or not.

by hwc 2007-07-08 07:27PM | 0 recs
Iowa will not have as much impact

for the same reason that the polls have been relatively stable: most of the names are well known, unlike 2004, when people weren't too sure about anyone.

Edwards would likely not get as much bounce from an Iowa win because he is expected to do well there, having invested quite a bit of time over the years. Obama may get a larger bounce out of Iowa, and if the bounce adds up to leading in national polls, that would be one scenario where he may manage to displace HRC come super Tuesday.

It is entirely possible that Hillary can sustain up to 3 losses (perhaps) in the front five, IA, NH, SC, NV, FL, and still come out of Tuesday headed for the nomination.

Finally, since Super Tuesday does have a national spread, national polls should perhaps be considered a measure of how the candidates may do subject to what comes out of the front five states.

by NuevoLiberal 2007-07-08 03:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Iowa will not have as much impact

You have been disproven so many times on this I must conclude that you simply want to believe it. Some one was nice enough the other day to actually- and Iw ish I could find the diary- finally do the break down regarding the early voting argument as well as the polling argument.

The rest of what you post is the exact same mimimize the outcome argument that has been floated around here before as well. Based on what are you making your arguments. What polling what analysis? Look. I am all for saying we don't know. That would be about what i think at this point. But those of you professing to know- there are so many holes in your analysis that it doesn't take much to question it.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 03:43PM | 0 recs
Blah blah blah

You have been disproven so many times on this I must conclude that you simply want to believe it.

I don't recall whatevr the hell you are talking about here.

Please link to exactly what you are referring.

I also want at least three occassions because you audaciously go on say "so many times" of whatever it is you're referring to.

Otherwise, please refrain from baseless charges you've pulled out of thin air.

But those of you professing to know- there are so many holes in your analysis that it doesn't take much to question it.

Blah blah blah.

This is all what we can say with with high level of confidence: if the primary election were held today in all 50 states, with very high likelihood, Hillary would win at least some 40 odd states.

Everything else is a set of projections and impressions. You have no place to come here and issue generic attacks on someone else's take, when anyone's projection, including your own, can be attacked using the exact same words.

~~~~~~~~

Now, let me see those links.

by NuevoLiberal 2007-07-08 04:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Blah blah blah

Every few diaries- unless I am getting the screen name wrong- you post similar comments along the lines that I see you posting here. Mostly about how the change in primary structure will lessen the importance of Iowa. If that's not you, then I appologize (but I am not going to waste time trying to prove it was you). The basic point remains the same- if Iowa comes this close to so many other primaries- increases the importance of Iowa- one would imagine, not lessens. SOmeone did a diary about how its worked in the past, why the primaries will occur this year, what the impact early voting if any would have etc. It was actually a pretty good primer because it went into the historical analysis that is lacking these days in all these diaries. You may or may not be right- but one would think to make such arguments you would rely on something more.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 05:05PM | 0 recs
readers, please see

below.

by NuevoLiberal 2007-07-08 05:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Blah blah blah

Oh- one of the points that was made that the early primaries would mean early voting which meant most people would vote during Iowa etc. That was disproven by the diary on early primaries.

Also, another discussed the specifics of your claim- or maybe it was one in with Armstrong in which someone broke down the prior election cycles- again I can't remember, but it pretty much showed that things like name ID and other factors have no been central. Someone showed that basically no one who hasn't won Iowa and NH has won the nomination, and that not winning Iowa is a near deathblow for most candidates. For example Kerry's lead going into NH before Iowa and Kerry's lead after was shifted by something like 15 pts. They also did other race years and it was also the case.

Can you show some historical analogy that suggests when the lead event has such an impact it's impact will be lessened due to things like you are doing- ie, playing the expectations game? Is that Hillary's strategy? To claim she expects to lose so it doesn't matter anyway?

by bruh21 2007-07-08 05:14PM | 0 recs
please see

below.

by NuevoLiberal 2007-07-08 05:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Iowa will not have as much impact

Um, that is simply not supported by the data.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-07-08 04:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Iowa will not have as much impact

Um, that is simply not supported by the data.

Can you be more specific?

by NuevoLiberal 2007-07-08 04:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Iowa will not have as much impact

Iowa's impact is demonstrated through the years, irrespective of the "Well knownness" of the candidates.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-07-08 04:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Iowa will not have as much impact

How about Hillary finishes a close second, and Obama lags far behind? Let's imgagine such scenario:

Edwards 35
Hillary 33
Obama   20

I suppose this to be the likiest scenario. I believe it'll will be over if this scenario materializes.

by areyouready 2007-07-08 04:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Iowa will not have as much impact

But that concedes my point.

If Hillary only barely loses, then the impact of Iowa will be miuted of course.

But she must finish there to do that.

Come now, this is obvious.

Hell, if Hillary wins in Iowa, it is OVER!

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-07-08 05:33PM | 0 recs
Totally agree.

by bookgrl 2007-07-08 06:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Totally agree.

I think EVERYONE pretty much agrees with that sentiment... The only way I could see it not happening is if she won by 1% or 2%  and you end up with a situation like you had in New Hampshire in 1992.  Otherwise, if she wins by 5% or more, its over unless she just makes a major gaffe, like using a racial slur or some kind of scandal like her having an affair... neither of which I see happening.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 08:30PM | 0 recs
if that were the result

then I would agree with you, Hillary could survive and cruise. Edwards would need a more convincing victory than that, and even then, Hillary could probably survive a second-place finish. We'll have to roll up our sleeves and push her down to third place.

She's got the lion's share of the major donors in Iowa, the best staff money can buy, and the Vilsacks campaigning for her full-time. If she can't win convincingly in Iowa, there is something seriously wrong with her as a candidate.

And, in fact, there is something seriously wrong with her as a candidate. She would lose the general. And count on the Obama and Edwards volunteers to explain that to undecided voters.

by desmoinesdem 2007-07-08 08:34PM | 0 recs
Re: if that were the result

the number don't buy your line?  What the hell does that mean?

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 09:55PM | 0 recs
Re: if that were the result

Nice ratings abuse Truthteller2007.  I hope they throw you off the site for this obvious TOS violation.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-09 07:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Iowa will not have as much impact

That Scenario is not going to happen though.  Obama may indeed come in third but Iowa is gonna be close among the big 3.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 09:56PM | 0 recs
the schedule is packed a lot

tighter after Iowa this time:


JANUARY 2008

January 14:      Iowa caucuses
January 19:     Nevada caucuses
January 22:     New Hampshire primary
January 29:     Florida primary, South Carolina primary (D)
February 2:     South Carolina primary

FEBRUARY 2008

February 5: Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado (caucuses), Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota (caucuses), Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Utah
http://uspolitics.about.com/od/2008elect ions/a/prez_primary.htm
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/path.pr esidency/

While one could argue that victory bounces will play a bigger role in a tigher schedule, it also depends on how the expectations are set as we enter the race and how the media ends up playing the results.

If a non-HRC candidate wins both IA and NV, then there may be enough bounce IF:

  1. one person wins both IA and NV
  2. there is a boom coming out of IA and NV
Otherwise, there is too little intervening time to make up ground in the other 3 states and then super tuesday.

Overall, my feeling (now looking at the actual dates) is that unless a non-HRC comes out of January with 3 wins, they don't have a chance to knock her out on super tuesday.

Of course, these are only impressions and not rigorous science.

by NuevoLiberal 2007-07-08 04:44PM | 0 recs
Re: the schedule is packed a lot

reading your additional responsive- i think you are the same person. In fact, I remember the comments disproving your claims about name recognition also being disproven by comparing multiple year races. I honestly don't know what you get out of this, but whatever, again if I am wrong, I apppologize, but  the whole name rec thing was also shown to be wrong by someone who looked at different Democratic primary years.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 05:07PM | 0 recs
please be more careful before bestowing innuendo

i think you are the same person.

links please.

In fact, I remember the comments disproving your claims about name recognition also being disproven by comparing multiple year races.

link please.

I honestly don't know what you get out of this

implied innuendo.

but whatever, again if I am wrong, I apppologize

you apologize at the same time as proceeding with  unsouced claims and implications?

but  the whole name rec thing was also shown to be wrong by someone who looked at different Democratic primary years.

I haven't had too many "name rec" discussions. I am looking the current numbers and trying to see what prospects the candidates would have to overcome HUGE deficits vs a well-funded Clinton machine. That's where I am coming from.

Can you show some historical analogy

There is not historical analogy. Hillary will try to make this a 3rd CLinton term for the primary portion of the race (and probably hide Clinton for the general if any scandal trouble looms).

that suggests when the lead event has such an impact it's impact will be lessened due to things like you are doing- ie, playing the expectations game? Is that Hillary's strategy? To claim she expects to lose so it doesn't matter anyway?

How am i supposed to know Hillary's strategy? I am not saying anythig other than my own opinions, and I am fairly regular reader of many if not most of the latest polls.

The way these lines read is as if you're suggesting that I am some kind of a Hillary supporter, which I am not. In fact, I oppose both Hillary and Edwards because of their war support.

If you don't have a link for any personalized remarks you want to make about another poster, just don't make them.

by NuevoLiberal 2007-07-08 05:45PM | 0 recs
Re: please be more careful before bestowing innuen

You know all I am going to say is get some help. You are on a blog. A blog. This isn't the New York Times. We are talking to each other. All this stuff about link and links and then going on and on- it just makes you seem fucking crazy after I said I wasn't sure. That should suffice for people who aren't kind of deranged.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 06:18PM | 0 recs
Evidence suggests that you are wrong

the impact of Iowa will still exist

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/6/13/1812 /34390#readmore

by okamichan13 2007-07-08 07:25PM | 0 recs
Dean would have won NH,

if he hadn't made the gaffe which would be blown out of proporation as the "scream". Interesting info, anyhow.

by NuevoLiberal 2007-07-09 04:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Dean would have won NH,

i'm sorry, but i don't believe that.  i was in new hampshire for dean, and while the new hampshire campaign was more organized than iowa, it was organized around this weird "what's your story" appeal that just didn't connect with voters.  add to that all the false 1's they got from their paid vendor, who had to be re-id'ed in the last weeks, the campaign was behind the 8-ball in new hampshire no matter how iowa turned out.

i strongly think dean would have done better, at least second, but i don't think he would have won nh based on his campaign "doctrine" there...

by bored now 2007-07-09 07:35PM | 0 recs
The implosion of his campaign

didn't have much to do with the scream. His lackluster performance in Iowa probably affected NH more than the scream.

by okamichan13 2007-07-09 07:42PM | 0 recs
Some of Dean's best campaigning came

in NH after Iowa. He was phenomenal. He would have pulled out a win, had the media not played the "scream" 10K times.

Dean actually gained 4-5 points in the second half of the week between IA and NH.

I was observing this portion of 2004 minute by minute, practically.

by NuevoLiberal 2007-07-09 10:58PM | 0 recs
yes...

we started to recover when we started distributing the abc interview.  but there wasn't enough time, and it couldn't overcome over infrastructure weakness inherent in the dean operation in new hampshire...

by bored now 2007-07-10 04:58AM | 0 recs
Re: When's the national primary?

only wrong post becuase you don't like the results.  ah yes, in denial.

by terrondt 2007-07-08 03:45PM | 0 recs
Re: When's the national primary?

You really, really, really don;t know what you are talking about.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 04:09PM | 0 recs
Re: When's the national primary?

You're also full of shit

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 09:53PM | 0 recs
Re: When's the national primary?

Sure.

Because my man Dodd will shock the world!

As you say, I am in denial.

Sheesh.

What sophisticated analysis we get here at MYDD.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-07-08 04:12PM | 0 recs
Why did Obama plateau/drop at the end?

If you look at the poll averages from pollster.com (which include Gore) you'll see that Obama went up steadily during the first quarter (and before) but then plateaued or dipped slightly during the second quarter. The last three polls in this diary also show a sharp dip in Obama's numbers from a few weeks ago. Anyone have a good theory as to why? Did he just max out on the potential support currently available out there or did he do badly in debates and campaigning?

As for Hillary's chances I think they largely depend on how she polls against against potential Repug challengers once people start paying more attention (right now it's still too early for that amount of detail). On the one hand her negatives are high, on the other she still beats Thompson, Giuliani, Romney and McCain in many current polls. I don't think her Senate record, DLC ties, earlier support for the Iraq war, campaign style or anything else can do her in. It'll come down to how electable people find her relative to Obama, Gore or Edwards.

by End game 2007-07-08 03:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Why did Obama plateau/drop at the end?

If you look at the poll averages from pollster.com (which include Gore) you'll see that Obama went up steadily during the first quarter (and before) but then plateaued or dipped slightly during the second quarter. The last three polls in this diary also show a sharp dip in Obama's numbers from a few weeks ago. Anyone have a good theory as to why?

Sure. It's not complicated. He got the big bump from all the hoopla surrounding his announcement and then, like all candidates, settled in where voters are evaluating his campaign on its merits relative to the other candidates. The good news for Obama is that he's been able to maintain his support. The bad news is that he appears to have hit a ceiling.

He's got to do something to change the dynamic of the race if he wants to catch Clinton because it unlikely that Clinton will be making a lot of big mistakes. Her campaign is hitting on all cylinders and she's proven to be a very capable candidate.

by hwc 2007-07-08 07:31PM | 0 recs
A Chance for Realignment

What strikes me is how much the Democratic primary this time around could be the exact inverse of the 2004 primary.

In 2004, you had Dean - who represented the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party - far in the lead nationally only to be foiled by Kerry in Iowa on electibility grounds.

This time, you have the play-it-safe centrist, Hillary Clinton, in the lead nationally who may crash in Iowa because she is not inspiring the Democratic wing of the Democartic Party.

I hope that the Iowans will realize that we have a historic opportunity here - an opportunity to realign the country along the lines of 1932.  We are living in a time where true evil has reared its head, an evil that has killed 3,600 American troops and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.  Nominating a candidate who has refused to apologize for abetting this evil, who has passed the buck to Bush at every occasion, who takes transparently opportunistic positions that alienate many and inspire none, would strangle our realignment at its inception and further alienate the American public from the political process.

by Lassallean 2007-07-08 03:15PM | 0 recs
Re: A Chance for Realignment

In 2004, you had Dean - who represented the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party - far in the lead nationally only to be foiled by Kerry in Iowa on electibility grounds.

Dean and Obama are the in the same boat. All the enthusiasm in the world won't mean jack if voter don't perceive the candidate as experienced enough to be President of the United States. Dean imploded because he never crossed the "Presidential gravitas" threshold. Obama has hit a ceiling for the same reason.

by hwc 2007-07-08 04:10PM | 0 recs
Until

all the candidates start running tv ads to introduce themselves or unveil their vision for the future, polls are meaningless. I promise.

I would hold off on you NH and Iowa post until September when TV ads start reaching Iowa and NH voters and we can get a sense of what narrative and vision is most compelling to dem voters. Until that time, these polls are largely name recognition polls, meaning, not that voters have never heard of Obama or Edwards, but that they do not know where they stand on the issues, do not know their resumes or backgrounds, or do not understand their vision for the future.

two pieces of evidence:

1) Richardson and Romney's rise in iowa and NH are due entirely to their running ads in those markets as evidenced by the fact that nationally they have not moved much. iowa and nh voters now know a little bit about richardson and romney and, as a result, are starting to choose them (for the time being) in polls.

2) This article provides good evidence that Obama is still not well-known, which will be a large part of his advertising campaign.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationw orld/bal-te.obama08jul08,0,2005400.story ?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines

A lot of people have a sense of who Obama is, (from his DNC speech or news shows) but very few know what he's done. The great thing (in my view) about his fundraising is that he'll be able to get his message out to all the important states.

by dpg220 2007-07-08 03:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Until

The problem is that his bio ads feature his years in the state legislature, because that's all he's really got.

He, from all reports, was a dandy state legislator. But, unfortunately, voters know the difference between a statehouse rep and a President of the United States.

by hwc 2007-07-08 04:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Until

What exactly has Hillary done with all her "experience" besides bungling Health Care in '93 and enabling Bush's invasion of Iraq in '03?

by Sam I Am 2007-07-08 07:39PM | 0 recs
i agree...

that obama does not have hillary's experience devising hillarycare or voting to invade iraq.  nor does he have her experience at alienating a substantial portion of the electorate.

thank god!

otoh, her experience is hardly relevant.  i still don't know why she's running for the presidency (except that she really likes living there, or some other nonsense), what she'd like to accomplish if she won, or how in hell she thinks she could divert the congress, media and country away from the inevitable psychodrama that surrounds her to get anything passed.

most of what hillary touts as experience is stuff that i'd like to see us move beyond.  i don't blame her, but i don't want to relive it, either.  and since i don't think clinton or rubin had much to do with the economic success of the 1990s, there is absolutely no reason for me to risk reliving the psychodrama.  when you start to account for all the democratic seats in congress that will be lost because hillary was president, it sure doesn't seem worth it.  she's a huge gamble -- for very little gain.

afaic, her experience is one of failure.  and she won't even admit that she made huge, immoral errors.  so it's double failure.

at least we know where barack wants to lead the nation, and we have confidence, based on his experience, that he can repeat his performance.  no one wants to see hillary's performance repeated...

by bored now 2007-07-09 04:45AM | 0 recs
Re:

This election is completely different from the 2004 election.  Some don't want it to be that way, because the candidate they like is far behind at this point, but there is no question that the primary calendar is different, the money situation is different, the early engagement is different and the players are well-known already, a complete reversal from 2004 when none of the candidates did anything for Democrats (they were to Democrats about what the current crop of GOP contenders are to Republicans.)   Now you have a quasi-incumbent running (Obama's own words) and a budding superstar.   This race is nothing like 2004, and I find it comical that some are trying to argue that way just because their candidate is at 12% to 14% nationally.  

by georgep 2007-07-08 04:25PM | 0 recs
It's over babay!!

Truly a ridiculous comment.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-07-08 05:31PM | 0 recs
Re: It's over babay!!

Nobody said that it is over.  Only that this election is different from 2004.  You obviously disagree, which is your right.  

by georgep 2007-07-08 05:40PM | 0 recs
Re: It's over babay!!

Every election is different in some respects.

But you are arguing that it is different than eveyr election for the past 30 years.

And that is simply ridiculous.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-07-08 05:43PM | 0 recs
Re: It's over babay!!

2004 - Kerry

2000 - Gore ran as quasi-incumbent, polled far ahead of Bradley everywhere, including Iowa.  Iowa served no slingshot function.  

1996 - Bill Clinton's re-election

1992 - Bill Clinton loses Iowa and New Hampshire.  The rest is, as they say, history.

1988 - Gephardt wins Iowa.  Dukakis places distant third.  Yet, wins nomination.

1984 -  While Mondale won Iowa he immediately went on to losing in New Hampshire to Gary Hart.  Jesse Jackson won South Carolina, Virginia and Louisiana, while Hart went on to win California and Ohio.  Mondale pulled it out in the end, but Iowa was certainly not helpful, as Mondale immediately thereafter went on to losing New Hampshire.  

1980 - Jimmy Carter runs for re-election.  

1976 - Carter came in second in Iowa to "uncommitted."  

---------------------------------------- --------------

Iowa's role as a kingmaker is certainly dubious at best.  Carter in 1976 placed second behind "uncommitted" and turned some heads.  Iowa certainly helped him make a name for himself against a crowded field.    In 84 an Iowa win did not translate into a boost for Mondale, who immediately went on to show poorly in New Hampshire and other early primary states.  In 88 Iowa did nothing for Gephardt.  In 92 Clinton won without Iowa.  You can make a case for Kerry, but the field this year is entirely different, and there is no historical evidence that a win in Iowa is the "be all," nor that a loss in Iowa means bad news for the rest of the race.  

Iowa has been less important to the nomination process than advertised by some here.  

by georgep 2007-07-08 06:21PM | 0 recs
Re: It's over babay!!

Your own polling suggests IA isn't dubious. You are confusing certainty with impact. Big Dems point has never been that IA will decide the race. His point is that it will have an impact, and if you are going to try to gauge inpact the IA outcome is far more likely to matter than national polling done 6 months out. The point of these postings is that we have no idea at this juncture what will happen, and that nayone using national polls to say they do are engaging in even more dubious analysis. IA at least has some predictative value, and so does NH- even if its imperfect. From what I can tell- the national polls 6 months out- and no one has produced data for this which is real problem- hasn't been proven to do much of anything other than be used as marketing tools. Your candidate faces an uphill battle for other reasons. The schedule is such that it will be a long battle if she doesn't obtain early wins. She may still win the nomination but this runaway claim is suspect. As is the claim that national polling means that she is doing better is suspect because it has nothing to back it up other than numbers from this year.

Where are the prior years polling data to indicate that 6 months out the polling data is such to let us know outcome. Your candidate has a real problem. You has almost universal name ID_ I have a link below for that in another part of this diary. The otehr candidates do not. In other words, her numbers maybe her ceiling, not her floor. That she won't do better than just under 40 percent in state wide polls in NH or elsewhere, ALl of which says to me that 2008 will be a brawl and slugfesgt rather than a sprint.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 07:22PM | 0 recs
Re: It's over babay!!

Ah, so you concede the point made?  Good for you.  You can hardly claim that Iowa has been a crucial factor in presidential nominations when the evidence shows that not to be the case as strongly as suggested.

I stated in my first response to the diarist the following:

"Good analysis of the race form a national level, which shows a widening gap.  That gap becomes even more distinct if you take Al Gore out of the equation.   But the more telling is her performance in the first 5 primary/caucus states, which strongly points to a winning strategy for Clinton.  

Iowa is one part of the equation, sure.  However, the poster claimed "Everything changes with Iowa," which is historically untrue, as shown above.   Iowa did NOTHING for Mondale, he won the state, then dropped immediately to lose a bunch of states, only Gary Hart's personal troubles did him in in the end, not Mondale's Iowa win.   It was not a problem for Clinton to lose Iowa and New Hampshire.  Gephardt gained nothing from his win in Iowa while Dukakis ended up the nominee, despite placing a defeated and demoralized distant third in the state.  Only Carter to a small extent and Kerry to a larger extent gained via Iowa.   New Hampshire has actually been a lot more instrumental than Iowa in the respect of being a kingmaker, if you look at nomination history, at least on the Democratic side.  

So, yes, state polls are absolutely more important than national polls.  Nobody denies that, and there has been no effort to claim it being otherwise, and as you can see above, I mentioned that prominently in my response to the diarist.   However, the state picture looks even better for Clinton than the national picture at this point, to the extent that even if the national polls showed a different reading (i.e. Obama ahead) looking at the state polls a strong nod and a strong likelihood of the nomination would have to go to Clinton.   Now, before you jump on:  Yes, there are still 6 long months to go and a lot can happen.   However, the same was said when the race was still 10 months away, and if anything, the state polls have just gotten better for Clinton all around since then (in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, Florida, California, Texas, etc. )

by georgep 2007-07-09 01:07AM | 0 recs
Re: It's over babay!!

by the way-the ceiling versus floor issue becomes a problem as other candidates drop out, undecideds make their decisions, electability becomes a factor, etc. long term analysis- that's about all I can say. Is look at the factors, and ask where does she grow?

by bruh21 2007-07-08 07:24PM | 0 recs
I don't know if I agree with this.

It seems Edwards has basically maintained his position in the polls, he's ahead in Iowa, he polls the highest in terms of likeability. Obama's fine, but I'm not as impressed with him as I was initially, and my impression of Edwards has improved.  I wouldn't totally dismiss him.  And, I predict he won't just wilt off the national scene if he doesn't make it past the primary.  He's a rising star in his own right.

by bookgrl 2007-07-08 06:56PM | 0 recs
Re: I don't know if I agree with this.

What would you see him doing?  He doesn't seem like cabinet material to me, nor can I imagine him winning the nomination after two failed attempts.

by markjay 2007-07-08 10:18PM | 0 recs
Re:

I agree 100%.  This race is definately different than 2004.  

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 08:31PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

To everyone claiming that 2008 is different from 2004- you do realize that the country didn't start in 2004 don't you? I mean its clear you are cherry picking when you limit the conversation to only one election cycle. Show me over the course of say since 1980 that you are right- then talk.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

We already have.  Yitbos showed in a previous diary (about 2 months ago) how little significance Iowa actually had in Democratic primary history.  In fact, Kerry was the only pol where you can even point to a slingshot effect Iowa provided.  In all other elections you either had someone already well ahead of everybody else or an incumbent running.  And, even with Kerry, the polls had moved well towards him (as the country was having strong second thoughts on Dean's ability and experience) in Iowa and New Hampshire before that election.  

This has already been chewed over in terms of Iowa.  Not sure if you were here for that though (you are fairly new here, right?)  

by georgep 2007-07-08 05:38PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Then Yitbos did some crappy work.

I doubt he did and doubt your description.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-07-08 05:44PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Um No I didn't... and George's description was right.

Iowa's significance is enhanced ONLY because of incumbent Presidents who have a BIG time advantage and I don't count as they skew things.  Unfortunately I didn't diary this but posted as a response and cam having a hard time finding it.  If I can, or I have the time, I'll repost.  Long story short, the winner of Iowa, WHEN NOT AN INCUMBENT VP OR PRESIDENT, has won the Dem nomination either 50% or less than 50% and the GOP was worse if I recall.  Incumbent Presidents usually win, which skews the numbers... but they have a VERY VERY VERY easy path.  The incumbent VPs since the modern system has started running for President have been Bush and Gore... Bush lost Iowa and Gore won Iowa so they cancel each other out.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 06:21PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

How does this factor into your analysis:

http://usconservatives.about.com/b/a/257 442.htm

and this

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/articl e/0,9171,1187184,00.html

This goes into name ID. You seem to not reflect that from what I can tell in your discussion of vps and pres. The value of incumbency is found in its power of ID, not the office itself.'

What's my point- that she's polling right under 40 percent. That what everyone is tauting as impressive is actually her ceiling, not her floor when one takes into account unfavorables with indies and other factors.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 07:09PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Again, I'd have to go back to the original post where I did the research.  I was posting what I remember.  The incumbents are left out of Iowa numbers BECAUSE they unrealistically skew the numbers when comparing to open elections like 2004 was and in 2008.  In the analysis, I pointed out that the winner of Iowa does not win the nomination even a majority of times when an incumbent President is not included.  

Agree or not, I really don't care... I just presented the cold hard facts... which show that winning Iowa does not guarentee a candidate in either party the Nomination.  In fact, the numbers are (and this is where I can't remember the exact) at best 50-50 when one eliminates an incumbent president (so for us 1980 and 1996) (who would have to be the biggest fuckup in history to not get renominated... and since it has only happened once with Pierce....) and I believe the actual numbers are worse than 50-50 even with the quasi-incumbent VPs of Gore and Bush the first, who lost Iowa, are included..  The GOP is even worse when one removes incumbent Presidents if I remember correctly.  It has been a while though since I posted it.

And for the record, I still don't think she will win Bruh.  I thought that was pretty obvious from my various comments on Mydd.  My statement then, and it remains the same now is that JUST because one candidate wins Iowa, it doesn't mean they will win the whole nom... it certainly doesn't hurt them, but the Kerry sweep was an anomaly rather than a regular occurence (unless you count incumbent Presidents which in my opinion shouldn't be included.)

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 08:44PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

I'm not sure how these articles have anything to do with historical Iowa data which is what I looked at.  GeorgeP has made the argument that whoever leads in the polls nationwide this far out generally wins the Nom, which I disagree with.  I could these articles as an argument against his hypothesis, but I don't see the relevance to my post on Iowa historical data, which is simply pointing out that in an open election, an Iowa win doesn't guarentee one the nomination.  Care to elaborate on the relevance of the articles, because I don't see it?

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 08:48PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Not quite, yitbos.  

There are two central arguments here.  

1.  Iowa

Does "everything change after Iowa"?   Not historically.   As I pointed out in a post above, Iowa has had fairly little significance on the Democratic nomination (and I recall where you showed that to be even worse for the Republican nomination.)   Iowa is somewhat overrated as a difference maker, historically speaking.

2. National polls

They are only meaningful to show trends, movement.  If a candidate was showing at a certain percentage and a month later an aggregate of polls shows him losing a good percentage, he is doing something wrong (and is in need of fixing whatever it is.)  It could be an errant comment, a bored debate performance or a "swiftboat" attack gaining traction.   Candidates' campaigns watch national poll movement closely to assess where their candidate needs to improve.   It is also true that February 5th is in a way a national primary, as there is no way the candidates can be present in all of these states right before that date, which in a general sense would make the national polls typically be the "general" poll for the vast majority of Feb. 5 states.

As for national polls having a predictive meaning for who wins the nomination:   It is historical fact that once a frontrunner has been established in either party, and that frontrunner holds that advantage through the third quarter, only once did that frontrunner not win his party's nomination since the primary system became the chosen way to select the nominee (Goldwater defeated Rockefeller for the GOP nomination in 1964.)  It is historically very likely that when a clear frontrunner is established and holds that advantage over a prolonged time, he/she eventually wins the nomination.  It is not that national polls are extremely accurate (all they really are are snapshots of popular opinion at that point in time they were taken,) but that prolonged frontrunner status comes with a bunch of advantages in terms of media coverage, how you are perceived by the public, a bunch of endorsements, money, etc. that is hard to combat by any challenger.   Of course, as the exception in 1964 for the GOP showed, it does not HAVE to be that way.  The only thing we know is that historically it typically holds true, but of course it does not HAVE to be that way this time.  

by georgep 2007-07-09 01:27AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

by the way- my analysis below indicates that IW and NH are enhanced regardless of incumbency.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 07:10PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Oy vey.

The ventual winner being from Iowa is NOT the issue. It is the effect of the Iowa results.

Sheesh. Honestly, that was really not incisive thinking on your part.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-07-09 06:50AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Unfortunately, it wasn't a diary but a post.  Please let me know if you can find it, otherwise when I have a movement I'll repost in an actual diary.  

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 06:21PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

I went through the Democratic nomination history and found the info (listed above.)  1976 was the year the new primary process was introduced, so that is as far back as is feasible.  And, from the looks of it, it is absolutely correct to state that Iowa has hardly been a kingmaker, the be-all of candidates.  Carter probably came closest in 1976 to make Iowa an important stepping stone, although he did not win there, but placed second behind "Uncommitted."  New Hampshire actually proved more important and critical for Carter's fortunes.  The country was very critical of the DC establishment because of the messy Nixon saga, so they were looking for a fresh, "unsoiled" face and found it in Carter.     The rest of the time, Iowa had very little role, if any, in the nomination process, except for Kerry's nomination in 2004.  

by georgep 2007-07-08 07:06PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

I just broke down the analysis below.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 07:09PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Wrong. Iowa MADE Carter. Only someone denying the obvious would write that.

The point is not who won, but the huge effect Iowa has.

Why sopme of you are so intent in denying the obvious is beyond me.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-07-09 06:53AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Well, then CLAIM Carter for Iowa.  I already stated that you can use Iowa for Carter and Kerry.  But, beyond that?   Look at the evidence.  Look at the last 30 years.   Iowa did do NOTHING for Mondale, quite the opposite.  Same with Gephardt.   Missing out on Iowa (Clinton) or placing a desolate, far-behind third (Dukakis) did not effect the rest of the nomination process.    Your entry here is just wrong, as historical evidence clearly shows.  

Only someone intent on denying the obvious historical facts (for whatever reason) would claim otherwise.    

by georgep 2007-07-09 08:34AM | 0 recs
George

Can you not argue honestly? No one claims Iowa is the determinative facfotr but that is is a big factor in what happens.

YOU deny the obvious by imputing to me opinions I have not expressed.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-07-09 08:45AM | 0 recs
Re: George

You stated "Everything changes after Iowa."  That looks to mean that Iowa is a huge factor in the nomination, which sometimes it was (i.e. Carter, perhaps Kerry) but usually really wasn't (i.e. Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton, re-election campaigns of presidents.)    If your statement did not mean to imply that Iowa is a true "change" agent, then we are on the same page.  It really is not that instrumental to look at Iowa as an important factor, as many times it was not a factor at all.  In certain settings it COULD make a difference (i.e. when most candidates are largely unknowns to the larger public trying to introduce themselves to the electorate like in 2004 and in 1976) but the argument advanced by Nuevoliberal and others, which makes a lot of sense, is that in this particular cycle we are not looking at such an alignment, rather a distinct group of very well known candidates, which to some (including myself) changes the "introductory" role an Iowa would play with lesser known candidates.    It is just a difference of opinion with your apparent point of view, nothing more.  

by georgep 2007-07-09 09:04AM | 0 recs
Re: George

Everything DOES change after Iowa.

But that does not mean the winner of Iowa wins the nomination.

What happens in Iowa is huge, even if it is nothing changing. For example, "nothing happening" in Iowa this cycle pretty much ends the race.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-07-09 11:23AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

I've been here since 2004 or 5. I also have been involved in politics as either a spectator or volunteer since the 1980s. All that is to say- I know the importance of the early primaries.

Clinton can not lose NH and IW. There is in fact only one person to lose both and go on to win- that person was her husband. In fact, the data shows if she loses IA she's in for a dog fight.

Bill Clinton- one of the best politicans of his generation and someone who didn't have upper 90s id plus high negatives.

I remember a certain governor having to say he was the come back kid on Nightline in order to address his lose in Iowa. Rather than arguing back and forth- here's what I found looking up the data:

2004

Before IOWA

NATIONAL POLL: dont have this data

Iowa:

Kerry 38 percent
Edwards 32 percent
Dean 18 percent

NH: Kerry defeated Dean

NOMINEE: Kerry

2000

Before IOWA NATIONAL poll:?

IOWA
Gore 63 percent
Bradley 37 percent

NH: Gore defeat Bradley

1996- Clinton Unopposed

1992

National going in: Don't have this data

Tom Harkin 76 percent (Harkin was from Iowa)
Tsongas 4 percent
Clinton 3 percent

NOMINEE: Clinton (atypical because Harkin from Iowa)
NH: Tsongas beat Clinton (extramarital affair o clinton hit press right before NH- bimbo eruption, and reprieve based on 60 Minutes during Superbowl Sunday w. HRC next to him denying Flowers claim- this is when they were new to us and people believed them).

Spin in press allowed him to win down South where he had been govenor *including delegate rich FL and TX. Does anyone here seriously think if HRC loses up north she can win down South?

1988

BEFORE IOWA NATIONAL POLL ??

IOWA

Gephardt 31
Simon 27
Dukakis 22

NH: Dukakais over Gephardt

NOMINEE: Dukakais

1984

Mondale 49
Hart 17 (affair crisis)

NH: Hart defeated Mondale

NOMINEE: Mondale

1980 (Carter inapplicable)

1976

National poll before Iowa

IOWA

Uncommitted 37 percent
Carter 28 percent

NH: Carter won

NOMINEE: Carter *inapplicable b/c uncommitted won

As has been stated IA and NH are critical. What I can't say, and no one is making that claim is how critical. The problem with much of the analysis here is that it's trying to pretend that 30 years of being critical is going to be wiped out.

Why exactly? Because of name ID. You know- that works both ways. You openned it up, and I am going to use that to bring up HRC's negatives among Democrats.

Here are the question marks on that one:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19140629/sit e/newsweek/

For NH- the number to watch are the indies who I understand can vote:

Clinton: 44% fav, 40% unfav, 15% no opinion
Edwards: 33% fav, 23% unfav, 34% no opinion
Obama: 41% fav, 18% unfav, 41% no opinion
Gore: 31% fav, 37% unfav, 31% no opinion

More to the point- part of her strategy is inevitability. She depends on her name to carry the day. Hence her strategy of downplaying issues and blurring how she differs from her competitors.

Many of you make wild claims here. I make no such claims. My only claim is that this thing is still wide open, and we really will not know which of the three strategies will work. Of the three, I believe Clinton and Edwards to be the strongest amongst traditional democrats. Armstrong tried to explain as much about Edwards the other day. I think Obama's problem is that he is the one most in need of taking down HRC, and yet he is the one least likely to do so. His fortune depends on HRC's fortune. Edwards- if you look at his strategy- does not. He's doing all the right move swith labor and other forces. He's thinking of the right wins.

This is just a quick analysis to prove a point. That this analysis here in this blog has been shit for a long time. I don't claim to be an expert, but I know when I am being fed cherry picked facts.

I don't know who will win. I don't have all the data. Most of what I don't have is important.

You know what distinquishes me from the rest of you- the fact I admit the limitations, and I am still using more data than you.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 07:04PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

And that's cool... again though, my whole argument and hypothesis was that Iowa was not a guarentee to victory.  New Hampshire and beyond wasn't included.  The argument was made in response to an Edwards supporter who felt that 2008 would be like 2004 and if Edwards won Iowa he would sweep the nomination like Kerry.  he felt Iowa was the key and a guarentee.  I pointed out it wasn't a guarentee.  That was all.  And what I said was 100% true.  It isn't a guarenteed victory just by winning Iowa.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 08:52PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

No sa guarantee to victory? And who for gawdsakes said it was?

Straw all over the place here.

But in some cases it would be a guarantee. If Hillary wins Iowa, it is over.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-07-09 06:55AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Some of your comments also come off a little more arrogant.  Not sure if that's what you were trying to achieve, but the comment "You know what distinquishes me from the rest of you- the fact I admit the limitations, and I am still using more data than you."  Really makes you sound like an asshole.  I was enjoying your post until that last little rant.  Just a bit of constructive criticism.  Other than your last paragraph, the rest of the post was very good.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 08:57PM | 0 recs
There was an excellent diary that showed

that the winner of Iowa got on average of 14 points bump into New Hampshire, see if I can find it.

by okamichan13 2007-07-08 07:15PM | 0 recs
Re: There was an excellent diary that showed

I was trying to do that same search- if you can find it much appreciation.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 07:25PM | 0 recs
Here it is

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/6/13/1812 /34390#readmore

it makes a strong case that while Iowa doesnt predict a winner, it does have a huge effect.

Personally I have no clue why we are even talking about national polls 6 months out from the first primary. National polls have always meant nothing in the primaries when there isnt a vp running.

by okamichan13 2007-07-08 07:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Here it is

2 possibilites- people are bored and/or they are ansy about the future- either way it's not useful i agree. on a brigher note - i see more diaries are being recommended that are actually on issues so thats a good thing.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 07:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Here it is

we talk about the polls because it's the Hillary campaigns strategy to do so and they are on Mydd for a reason. Never before have people made such a big deal of primary polling before this far out, the reasons being is no one outside of the "junkies" like us gives a shit, the NY times is doing an article tommorow on how Iowa voters are sick of the campaign and it's July! the reality is no-one who's up for grabs gives a shit and of the people who are showing interest Obama is doing extremely well.

by nevadadem 2007-07-08 07:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Here it is

My friend and I- said as much. I am just a political junkie so this is fun to talk about but honestly- he agrees with me that no one gives a shit yet.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 08:05PM | 0 recs
I thought your point about donors

downthread was a very good one. If she has such solid support why doesnt her donor base show that?

We'll know more around the 15th but I suspect her donor base is shrinking, especially her small donor base. It seems a pretty safe guess with how much she got for the general this time. I would bet that her donor base will be less than Edwards for the 2 quarters and possibly less than Edwards this quarter.

Last quarter most of her money came from fat cats at the top and I bet we see that % be equal to last quarter or go up.

by okamichan13 2007-07-08 08:09PM | 0 recs
Re: I thought your point about donors

i just thought of this, but that would also be some indicator of how much of her support is soft or hard and whether she is at her zenith or is this her floor. the fact she didn't want to give that number out isn't a good sign for those claiming she's at her nadir

by bruh21 2007-07-08 08:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Here it is

I may be mistaken, but didn't you post some items talking abotu the polls when Edwards was closing in on Obama in the polls?  I may be mistaken but I know there were some Edwards supporters to do that, just as some Obama supporters have done and the Hillary supporters are doing now...

Frankly I agree with you... Its too early to care about polls.  I don't care until Septemer or October and don't REALLY care until December or January.  Either way, I'm still confident Obama will win.  I could be wrong of course, but only time will tell.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 09:07PM | 0 recs
Nope the only thing Ive posted

about polls as far as diaries go is an Iowa poll related diary (which I think matters much more than national though caucuses are so hard to poll) and head-to-heads which imo also are more useful.

by okamichan13 2007-07-09 09:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Nope the only thing Ive posted

The Republican race is far too unsettled for head-to-head matchups go mean squat at this point. I don't know anyone who can predict the Republican nominee or what kind of shape he will be in when the nomination is determined.

Head to head matchups today are about like predicting the winner of the Superbowl next February. These kinds of predictions don't tell us much until we actually know the two contestants and where they stand at that point in the season.

And, I say that with my prefered candidate leading all the national matchups as of today. I still don't think it means anything.

by hwc 2007-07-09 10:58AM | 0 recs
A lot of work

for something that barely matters.

But let's assume that it matters. According to your graphs, Obama has dropped average of 2 points, Edwards only 1.6.

by david mizner 2007-07-08 05:48PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Great Job... The polls will tighten as we get closer to January with Obama going past Hillary the week or two before and winning Iowa, finishing close second in NH, winning Nevada and SC and then getting a big majority on Feb 5 to pretty much make it a cake walk to the nomination.  

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 06:11PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Are you saying this as a fact or its just wishful thinking.Seems a little far fetched to me , because in NV he barely as a campaign presence,in Nh the Clintons are loved and from all i am hearing they have that locked up and in Iowa odds on favourite is Edwards,so for you to make such bold predictions beats me,

Do you work in the campaign and are you privy to some information we don't have?,or is this just blowing smoke.

by bebe 2007-07-08 06:20PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Are you seriously asking that question?  Don't waste my time with that kind of crap... its the same kind of prediction EVERY supporter has said of THEIR candidate... and as everyone but you knows, its ALL IN FUN BECAUSE NONE OF US ARE PSYCHICS!!!!!!!!!!!  

So no, I DON'T work for the campaign, I don't have some magical future information from six months in the future and I'm not blowing smoke by pretending its actually the written future... I WAS HAVING FUN PREDICTING MY CANDIDATES SUCCESS AS WE ALL DO FROM TIME TO TIME UNTIL I HAD TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION!!!

And after Obama wins the Dem nom, he sweeps the EC in the general and gets all the EC votes except one abstaining vote as the Unanimous vote in the EC is reserved for Washington.  No, I'm not a psychic... my dog is though and she told me.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 06:31PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

You know you should try to at least let your predictions be grounded in some reality.No one will take you seriously with those type of predictions.I know I don't.

by bebe 2007-07-08 06:37PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

exactly. I think we are hitting on the core issue here. Some people come here to just engaged in blowing off steam to make shit up, and others want serious inquiry. This used to be asite- at least with Bowers aronund, whether you agreed with him or not, where some thought went into what people say.

If I wanted to just read made up shit, I would rather read fiction. At least that's more interesting. I guess what I am realizing more and more is that this site is going down hill. That's disappointing.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 07:13PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

"Great Job... The polls will tighten as we get closer to January with Obama going past Hillary the week or two before and winning Iowa, finishing close second in NH, winning Nevada and SC and then getting a big majority on Feb 5 to pretty much make it a cake walk to the nomination."

How will he feel if I said Gravel was gonna win it all,we all know thats not even gonna happen.He's made his prediction with so much absolute certainty that you will think he had some inside info,or was privy to some campaign strategy we don't know about

Okay even if you are just fantazing,which I really don't have time for,it should at least be based on some empirical evidence like polls,state of campaigns etc.

Currently Obama might have actually conceded Nevada to Hillary,since I don't see much of his campaign in there,she is leadind in the 20-25 range.

by bebe 2007-07-08 07:40PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

that's a hard state to poll and I believe it may come down to Edwards strategy of courting labor versus HRC's money there. I don't know which will win out or the impact of other prior primaries.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 07:48PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

yeah in that state it is between edwards and hillary.I don't see how obama wins nv,becos his campaign structure in there is almost non existent.the hispanics will go for hillary and labour either edwards or hillary

by bebe 2007-07-08 07:55PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

And your proof of this is...?  Since you are so certain, I'm curious to the info your privy too in your..."prediction".  

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 09:35PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol
I'm going to stop responding because my restraint is slipping and the things I REALLY want to say to you right now are about to come out.  1... Comparing Gravel to Obama is just plain pointless.  2... Many Many people have made predictions... ITS ALL FOR FUN; try to learn the concept of jokes, sarcasm and snark.  It makes life a bit easier.  3...  Obama has NOT conceded Nevada to Hillary,  http://nevada.barackobama.com/page/conte nt/nvhome  Just because you don't see much of his campaign doesn't mean its not there... and by your comment I am assuming you are from Nevada, otherwise if you are just using polls to make your hypothesis, then thats pretty pointless to do.  4...  Since I think the polls are pointless 6 months out, WHY WOULD I USE THEM FOR A JOKING PREDICTION... I'm not betting on the prediction or anything so WHY THE HELL DO YOU CARE?  How does my making a prediction, joke or not, effect you in any way.... cause if I have some unknown secret power, please let me know.  5...  If you want to predict Gravel, Edwards, Hillary, Kucinich or ANY other candidate will win... FEEL FREE... rather its a joke or a real prediction (which are worth about the same as the paper they aren't printed on) its OK to do so... its your right.  
6...  Don't just assume shit that isn't there... Nowhere in that post did I ever say it was Guarenteed, real or any such other stuff.  
by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 09:34PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

WHAT THE FUCK???  Seriously, who the hell shit in your cereal?  Where in my post was something saying... THIS IS SERIOUSLY GOING TO HAPPEN?  Its all in good fun until certain peopel take it way to seriously.  I find your comment especially fucked up since you previously posted at the end of your analysis that Hillary and Edwards have the only shot of winning Iowa.    

Nothing was ever serious in my post, it was all for fun and a little humor.  Apparently it went over your head... but if you hate the way MyDD is now, there's one solution for you... don't come and post or read posts here.  I'm sorry you think MyDDers shouldn't make stupid fun predictions that are obviously jokes to nearly everyone but a select "special" few... god forbid one do that.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 09:16PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

I apologize for this... The comments made earlier just pissed me off to no end and I reacted.  I might have been a bit harsh and apologize for that.  

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 09:25PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

While you went a bit overboard in language, I agree with your sentiments.  

by georgep 2007-07-09 01:36AM | 0 recs
I think that was his point

that predicting results in a primary 6 months from now based on national polling results is pretty silly but we can all take a guess according to how we want our favorite candidate to do.

by okamichan13 2007-07-08 07:34PM | 0 recs
Re: I think that was his point

okay then i am definitely sarcasm challenged on blogs- I totallhy missed that.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 07:49PM | 0 recs
Re: I think that was his point

You missed the sarcasm in saying that ANY candidate would win all the EC votes?  Seriously?  If so then I am amazed but apologize for my reaction.  Your comments just pissed me off royally as I found them very insulting.  

My apologies.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 09:24PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

ITS A FUCKING JOKE.  ITS ALL IT EVER WAS.  ITS THE SAME THING OTHER PEOPLE HAVE SAID ABOUT THERE CANDIDATES... HILLARY WILL IOWA AND SWEEP ALL THE PRIMARIES... OBAMA WILL WIN NEW HAMPSHIRE AND SWEEP THE REST OF THE PRIMARIES... EDWARDS WILL WIN IOWA AND SWEEP THE REST OF THE PRIMARIES...

Besides the fact, while they were made as a joke, saying that the primary scenario couldn't happen at all is a bit much.  It could easily happen with ANY of the big 3 candidates.  A week before Iowa, there were very few people saying Kerry would win Iowa and New Hampshire.  In all honesty, DO I think Obama will win?  yes I do, but then I'm an optimist and he's my candidate.  Do I think it will play out in the scenario I said above... most likely no, but there is a small chance it could... again though I would say most likely no.  As for the General election, if you failed to see the snark in that comment about Obama winning all the EC and at that point couldn't figure out that it wasn't serious, then I just feel bad for you.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 09:22PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

i am doing like three things- writing my screenplay, dealing with financial issues and reading blogs when I am not wanting to do my work so it's easy for me to miss humor sense in fact humor is the more sophisticated version of interaction. serious is easier to do than humor- trust me I am a writer I know. so if someone like me isn't paying close attention in a serious thread you should assume i just didn't get it was humor.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 09:30PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

by someone like me - i mean someone who tends not to take life all that seriously and can take a joke

by bruh21 2007-07-08 09:31PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Based on the rather bitter posts I have seen you make over the last few weeks, I would never have guessed you could make or take a joke.  Not meant to be an insult, but you may want to show your sense of humor sometime... or not do three things at once.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 09:38PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

the irony is that if i am talking to someone nice, i am nice, and if i am talking to somone who isn't, the reverse is also true. you read a few comments over a few weeks and seem to have made some rather unfounded assumptions.  if you go through my comments you will see i compliment nice people with whom i disagree (had that sort of conversation with an obama supporter with whom we disagreed who was the best candidate, and attacked a fellow Edwards supporter for being over the top. The difference? The Obama supporter wasn't trying to bullshit me or pretend his opinion was the gospel, and if you read my comments through I never say mines are either). i get turned off by the spin. this site used to be place you could come for some good analysis even if stoller occasionall stuck in some spin it was at least based on soemthing.  there are just more nasty people doing the regular political world spin up here than nice these days. i respond in kind.  it's really that simple.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 10:39PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

I'll give you I haven't looked at all your comments, so my comment was based on my experiences.  And until the day, none of it was ever directed toward me, so it was observation from a third party.  

Please before you attack make sure you know whether its a joke or not.  If you see me say "THIS IS THE ONLY WAY IT WILL HAPPEN AND ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE IS AN IDIOT"  then you know I am probably being serious and feel free to comment.  Otherwise its most likely a joke.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-09 07:49AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

its harder to show a sense of humor when you are arguing with someone you can tell is just plain old lying to you, and they are doing it in such as way as that its insulting. i mean like i told one person- i dont mind you spinning, but at least admit when you've been caught at it. the scary part is i think some believe their own spin. as i used to say of our illustrious idiot and chief- it's one thing to lie and have others believe it, and its quite another to believe your own lie. what's scary to me is there are folks like that on our team (the democrats) who seem able to convicne themselves of things too. my response at base to all of this is that none of us knows, and we should be able to discuss each candidates strength and weaknesses, and talk trhough issues with out being spun- again get enough of that off line.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 10:43PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Look, if this is aimed at me again, get over yourself already.  As was stated, you come across as extremely bitter.  And, I resent that you call me a LIAR.  I don't LIE on here.   That is an unbelievable accusation that you should be ashamed of making.   If you don't like the posters here, then just go to some other site where you like it better.   Your behavior is basically troll like, and it stinks to high heaven.   Try to engage in respectful discourse, and others will respond to you in kind.  This other stuff is demeaning to the discussion process on this excellent site.  

by georgep 2007-07-09 01:49AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol
a) no this isn't about you
b) get a grip
by bruh21 2007-07-09 05:10AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Are saying I'm lying to you?  I'm not sure how I did.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-09 07:45AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

I am not talking about anyone person. I am talking about spin.

by bruh21 2007-07-09 07:49AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

That's cool.  And I apologize for blowing up last night.  Hope all is cool.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-09 08:08AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

no prob- i didn't think anything of it. it was a misinterpretation

by bruh21 2007-07-09 08:29AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

You know what really grinds my gears?  You, America.  FUCK YOU!!!

LOL, sorry one of my favorite Family Guy segments of all time.  That is in no way directed at anyone, just meant to bring a smile to peoples faces.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-09 12:49PM | 0 recs
Re: 2008 Democratic primary pol

ps- there is a difference for why some people come to this site that's changed over the last year. I realized that along this thread- as the other poster mentions- bebe I think- who said he or she doesn't come here to read people's totally made up analysis. It used to be the case- not to long ago- that when people posted something it wasn't total spin. Some spin is expected, but this is no longer the case here.

when bowers and others used to do analysis- like I  said- even if you disagreed there wasn't any cherrypicking- they would do as I did below- explained the strengths and weaknesess of my arguments.

The poster the other day with whom I disagreed aknowledged the strengths and weaknesses of his arguments, and I did the same, so it was a conversation rather than spin.

I get the feeling some of you come on here these days for emotional validation of your choice for candidate. I see that among the edwards, obama and hrc people a like. I am an edwards supporter, but as I say- my candidate doesn't walk on water. None of them do. It gets tiring to read when people act as if theirs do. It used to be an attempt at a balance. There were minor flair ups in the past such as with Ohio's senate race, but this sort of cherrypicking didn't used to be norm. Now it feels like spin is becoming the norm here.

by bruh21 2007-07-09 07:56AM | 0 recs
Re: 2008 Democratic primary pol

I have been on here as long as you have, since 2004 (originally under another name, then my PC had trouble logging it in and I sent Jerome a message who said the account was fine,but since I couldn't get in before he responded I switched to my current name).  People have ALWAYS made crazy predictions... I remember the predictions of Kerry winning 350-400 ECs in the 2004 election.  

The problem is with the primaries... once they are over the site will return to the GOP bashing site it normally is.  I was not on MyDD for the 2004 Primaries, although from what i hear it was mostly Dean supporters... However, I would be there were others making crazy predictions all in good fun.  

I KNOW we saw it in 2004 and 2006.  Most people do it in good fun, some are too serious about it.  

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-09 08:16AM | 0 recs
Re: 2008 Democratic primary pol

yeah which is why I am going to start being more selective in who I am talking to regarding this stuff. realize I am not talking to someone who maybe is here for the same reason as me. i just come to talk politics even with soemone with whom I disagree with the understanding that we arent spinning each other

by bruh21 2007-07-09 08:31AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

If Hillary is loved why aren't people flocking to see her and donate to her campaign? I keep hearing how well is she loved from you guys but other than in polls of people not really paying attention thier simply is no sign of it.

by nevadadem 2007-07-08 07:54PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

people are going to se her,you probably haven't followed her campaign that much and of course she is not generating as much excitement as obama becos she is well known and for better or worse they already know if they are gonna vote for her or not.That is why I do not think She will loose her lead.Obama might shave off some points but I susupect not too much.Becos I think she has a high base of loyal supporters in about the low 30's which are mostly women and a good proportion of men too although in lower numbers that no matter the news about her they will vote for her anyway and this might be enough to get her through the primaries.Indeed this is shown by her consisitent lead in the polls in the 35 - 45% range,I susupect she has a floor or base of about 32% that are loyal no matter what.

by bebe 2007-07-08 08:02PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

actually her floor according to yet another diary on her is about as i understand is in the low 20s. The rest is soft support. The other two are in the teens. That also is an indcator if just why we shouldn't be putting too much stock in anything righ tnow. No one is really all that committed. I do have to woner with her name ID and favorables is this her ceilign rather than floor, but I don't even want to pretend I know because I dont

by bruh21 2007-07-08 08:08PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Yeah i dont want to go into a distinction between hard or soft support, because i seriously don't know how i can make the disnction with the polling data we have out there.However if i take her word for it She is still in a very good position with that level of hardcore supporters.And if i was a betting man I will say most of her soft support will probably stick with her,just becos of the quality of the campaign of other candidates.I don't see a reason why they will want to move to Edwards because he is obviously struggling now.Of course Obama is the other choice,but based on the internals of the demographics of her support I susupect they will stay with her,for example She is leading overwhelmingly with older citizens and I think that segment will stick with her becos of her track record with senior issues and of course I do not think they will want to shift their vote to Obama becos of the experience factor.

by bebe 2007-07-08 08:26PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

ITS BECAUSE...BECAUSE...BECAUSE

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 09:41PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

my view is either its all applicable or its not. good with the bad. saying that we should pay attention to the polls, but then ignore parts of the poll seems like cherry picking, and i don't like to cherry pick.

by bruh21 2007-07-08 10:44PM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

THAT I agree with.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-09 08:17AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

Her hard support is probably closer to the mid-30s right now.  A poster comes on and states that "it was proven in a diary that it is otherwise" means nothing.  We have seen poll after poll test the "strong support" question, and Clinton's support is generally assessed as more solid at this point.  

by georgep 2007-07-09 01:42AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

it wasn't a poster- it was a front page analysis discussing all of the candidates hard and soft support. Big Tent even made fun of it, but he has made fun of all of this as a joke.

by bruh21 2007-07-09 05:12AM | 0 recs
Re: An analysis of the 2008 Democratic primary pol

You left out one other very important point between then and now:

-then, we all worked our asses off because we thought the Democrats would 'change the course'.  Remember that?

now-we all know they still have their heads under the desk or up someone's ass and are neither willing nor capable of changing anything.

What that means in terms of your analysis is significant:  the Dems now aren't seen as that much different than the Republicans so the 'newbie' advantage is gone.  And, all the main candidates are right off the Congressional trash heap.

I'd start taking wagers on who has the worst voter turnout.  

And on Al Gore, Gore is the only one capable of boosting the Democrats chances to a surefire win.

He neither wanted to or needed to 'campaign' for the Presidency.

Can't you really see what he's doing, the brilliance of it all?

He's campaigning right now.  Under the best of terms and formats, on his favorite subjects, at his own pace!  
He avoids lowering himself to those pathetic focus groups more interested in yer favorite drinkin buddy than in solving the Mid-East conflicts.

Al Gore will win in 08'. Because the real Al Gore  is here, and he's been groomed for this very moment in our history.

by hazmaq 2007-07-08 06:11PM | 0 recs
Al Gore is NOT running.

by Regan 2007-07-09 06:12AM | 0 recs
The Big question

though is do national polls at this matter at all?

by okamichan13 2007-07-08 07:12PM | 0 recs
this talk of an obama surge

is overblown.  Just look at the polls: when Gore is removed, Edwards and Obama increase by equal increments.  If Gore's removal cannot thrust Obama within striking distrance now, how will he ever catch Hillary?  For Hillary, by the way, has a ton of money.  Somehow her warchest is bracketed in this discussion.  And we also cannot discount the probability that voters may reject the top two with all their money and advertising and choose someone whose campaign may be more subtle and less intrusive.

by truthteller2007 2007-07-08 07:28PM | 0 recs
Re: this talk of an obama surge

Obama has more money than Hillary overall, and none of the polling has absorbed the financial numbers to my understanding.  Now of course nothing might happen, but before you do an Obama hit post, wait until the polling actually comes out.  Amazing how inaccurate your screenname is.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 09:44PM | 0 recs
Re: this talk of an obama surge

Nice ratings abuse!

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-09 08:17AM | 0 recs
Hillary may win Iowa for and blow out

the field, but i don't buy for a second that she couls just shrtug off poor early state showings, losing Iowa will feed into the perception that she is too polairzing to be elected,losing new Hampshire because she lost Iowa will end it, the thing is Hillary's team knows that and will so evrything possable to avoid that happening. Obama is going top go hard with change v/s more of the same by having Bill in Iowa say "Yesterday's news was pretty good" Obama won't go negative it will be thank you for the good job but it's time as a country to move on. that's what all the money Obama has will be spent on.

by nevadadem 2007-07-08 07:51PM | 0 recs
Agree with that

she can't handle losses in the early states and Obama does need to put more pressure on her if he wants to win this. Not negative, but make clear distinctions.

Iowa will matter. Posted a link to this diary upthread but why not post it again:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/6/13/1812 /34390#readmore

by okamichan13 2007-07-08 08:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Agree with that

That I agree with 100%.  He let her negate his Iraq advantage and he needs to start hitting the distinctions.  I wish he'd remind people EVERY time he talks about iraq that SHE VOTED FOR IT AND LONG SUPPORTED IT.  

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 09:45PM | 0 recs
Re: puleeze...

You know, I don't have a problem with what you wrote... its that you act like a little spoiled child and post it 4 times... I was gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that you hit the submit button too much, but then saw the subject was changed.

by yitbos96bb 2007-07-08 09:49PM | 0 recs

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