Roberts Nomination--An Historic Aberration

Excellent. Also, read this useful essay on the power of the Chief Justice. Further, the start of the hearings on Roberts have been moved back to Monday at noon, so I'm back in Philly for now--Chris

Sixteen previous men have served as Chief Justice. A quick survey of all 16 shows that all of them had a more substantial public record than John Roberts. If G.W. Bush had an extraordinary record of appointing talented unknowns, then perhaps we could overlook this aberration. But with hundreds, perhaps thousands of bodies scattered throughout New Orleans, trust in Bush's appointments is justifiably low.

Going Nuclear With The Stealth Candidate

After the worst week in the Bush presidency-yes, worse than 9/11-he has the audacity to up his stealth nominee to the Supreme Court into a nominee for the top seat-Chief Justice.  There were already abundant reasons to oppose Roberts for any seat on the Court. So it was completely typical for Bush to take a dubious (at best) nominee, and try to elevate him even further.  

There have been 16 Chief Justices in American history, and--as will be seen below--every single one of them had a significantly more extensive public record than this nominee.  What's more, one Chief Justice only served a single interim term, because the Senate refused to confirm him, and three other nominees withdrew because the Senate would not confirm them.  Taken all together, the historical record shows Roberts to be an extreme aberration, who should be rejected out of hand.

The idea of appointing someone with virtually no record that he will stand by to the Supreme Court is bad enough. (All his work as a lawyer is being disavowed as "just serving his client").  But this is typical coming from a President whose own record and "accomplishments" are all spin.

Let's look at the record. There has been a good deal of latitude in the degree of judicial experience that Chief Justices have had. Some have had none at all. But they have held other forms of government office, where they have been publicly accountable.  First, let's look at Roberts, then let's look at the 16 previous Chief Justices.

The Extent of the Record for Roberts

Roberts served as Deputy Solicitor General under George H.W. Bush, and argued 39 cases before the Supreme Court. He was appointed to Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia in 2003, and has written 40 opinions, most of them narrow, and without dissents.  Politically, this presents a low profile if one accepts the GOP rationale that all his other work was simply serving clients, and did not necessarily represent his views. However, this defense is coupled with a vigorous attempt to hide his views by withholding documents from his government service-which suggests deliberate bad faith in putting forth his nomination.

The Extent of the Record for Previous Chief Justice Nominees

In contrast, past Chief Justices have had a wide range of experience, from a former President to men who had won just one election to state-level office. Three never won any public office, but served 13, 14 and 16 years as Associate Justices, before being elevated to Chief. All were known quantities to a greater or lesser extent--quite unlike John Roberts, at least the John Roberts his defenders would like us to believe in.

Here then is a brief summary of the record, derived almost entirely from Wikipedia, so that the facts can be easily checked.

Wikipedia has a list of the Chief Justices in its entry on Chief Justice.  The office got off to a rocky start. Washington made three appointments, none lasted long. Then Adams appointed Marshall, the principle of judicial review was established in Madison v. Marbury, and things got serious, with tenures lasting for multiple Presidential terms.

John Jay was appointed by George Washington in 1789. Jay served as  the fifth President of the Continental Congress from December 10, 1778 to September 27, 1779.  He was a diplomatic representative to France during the Revolutionary War, along with Benjamin Franklin and John Adams, and was one of the co-authors of the Federalist Papers.  He was clearly a major political figure of the day.

John Rutledge was appointed by George Washington in 1795. He was a delegate to the First and Second Continental Congresses, helped write South Carolina's state constitution, became president of the lower house of the state legislature, then governor. At the US Constitutional Convention he chaired the Committee of Detail. Washington appointed him to Supreme Court, where he served just two years before becoming chief justice of the South Carolina supreme court. Four years later, Washington appointed as Chief Justice, but he only served one term, as the Senate rejected his appointment, partly for political reasons-his opposition to the Jay Treaty (opposition to the treaty fueled the development of the Democratic-Republican [later Democratic] Party)-and partly because of his questionable mental health following the death of his wife.

Oliver Ellsworth was appointed by George Washington in 1796. Ellsworth represented Connecticut in the Continental Congress, in the Constitutional Convention (where he served on the Committee of Five, who prepared the first draft), and in the US Senate, where he was one of the state's first two Senators, and chaired the committee that framed the bill organizing the federal judiciary.

John Marshall was appointed by John Adams in late 1800, and took office in early 1801.  Marshall's record was more slight than his predecessors, primarily because he often refused diplomatic appointments preferring to remain in Virginia.  He served in the Revolutionary war, rising to the rank of captain. But in 1797 he did serve on the 3-man commission to negotiate with France--and wrote the blistering rejection of the attempted extortion in the XYZ Affair, which made him a sort of national hero.  Adams wanted to appoint him to the Supreme Court as an associate justice, but he ran for Congress instead, and was elected in 1799. Adams appointed him Secretary of State in mid-1800, then appointed him Chief Justice.

Roger Brooke Taney was appointed by Andrew Jackson in 1836. He began his political career at the age of 22 in Maryland's House of Delegates. He served in Maryland's Senate, and was appointed Maryland Attorney General in 1827. Jackson appointed him US Attorney General in 1831. He was a politically controversial figure--not least for his role supporting Jacksons war against the  Second Bank of the United States--but one with a long public record.  The Senate postponed his initial nomination as an Associate Justice, but approved his appointment as Chief Justice the next year, after its makeup changed considerably.

Salmon P. Chase, appointed by Abraham Lincoln in 1864. He was a prominent Ohio lawyer, politician and anti-slavery advocate, who had a powerful impact on national politics.  As a lawyer, he argued cases against slavery all the way to the Supreme Court (losing, of course.)  In 1849 he was elected to the US Senate where he was a leading anti-slavery advocate. In 1855 he was elected governor of Ohio. He was re-elected to the Senate in 1860, but resigned to serve as Secretary of Treasury.

Morrison Remick Waite was appointed by Ulysses S. Grant in 1874.  He had one of the slimmest resumes of any Chief Justice nominee, but was nonetheless a prominent and widely-respected figure at the time of his appointment. He served one term in the Ohio General Assembly in 1850, and declined an appointment to the Ohio Supreme Court in 1863. In 1871, Grant appointed him to a commission established to settle claims against Great Britain for its assistance to the Confederacy during the Civil War. The proceedings-in Geneva- resulted in an award of $15.5 million to the United States. Upon his return from Europe, Waite was elected to the Ohio Constitutional Convention of 1873 and was unanimously selected to serve as its president.  He was Grant's fifth choice-one turned him down, and three withdrew when the Senate threatened rejection.

Melville Weston Fuller was appointed by Grover Cleveland in 1888. He had the slimmest resume of an Chief Justice nominee, but had a long public record of his political views, in addition to a legal practice that took him before the Supreme Court. He came from a family of lawyers-both grandfathers were judges and his father was a prominent lawyer. He was a newspaper editor and minor political figure as well as a prominent lawyer, who argued cases before the Illinois State and US Supreme Courts. He served one term in the Illinois House of Representatives, and was a delegate at the national Democratic Conventions of 1864, 1872, 1876, and 1880.  

Edward Douglass White was appointed by William Howard Taft  in 1910.  He was a Louisiana lawyer who served briefly in the Louisiana State Senate in 1874 and as an Associate Justice in the Supreme Court of Louisiana from 1879 to 1880. He served in the US Senate from 1891 to 1894, and served as an Associate Justice of the US Supreme Court from 1894 until his appointment as Chief Justice 16 years later. At the time, this was a point of controversy, as no previous Associate Justice had ever been elevated to Chief Justice.

William Howard Taft was appointed by Warren G. Harding in 1921.  Taft was the only Chief Justice to also have served as US President.  Before becoming President, Taft served as a federal Appeals Court judge, as Governor-General of the Philippines, and as Secretary of War.

Charles Evans Hughes was appointed by Herbert Hoover in 1930.  Hughes was a Governor of New York, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, and  US Secretary of State, and narrowly lost the 1916 Presidential election to Woodrow Wilson..  He served as a judge of the Permanent Court of Arbitration and the Permanent Court of International Justice in The Hague, The Netherlands.

Harlan Fiske Stone was appointed by Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1941. Stone was dean of Columbia Law School, Attorney General of the United States, and Associate Justice of the US Supreme Court for 16 years before Roosevelt elevated him to Chief Justice.

Frederick Moore Vinson was appointed by Harry S. Truman in 1946.  Vinson served in the House of Representartives (from Kentucky) for twelve years, served as a Federal Appeals Court judge from 1937 to 1943 and served as Secretary of Treasury under Truman before being appointed Chief Justice.

Earl Warren was appointed by Dwight D. Eisenhower in 1953. Warren served as District Attorney of Alameda County, California, California State Attorney General, and Governor of California-winning election three times, once with no opposition. He was the Republican Vice-Presidential candidate in the very close 1948 election.

Warren Earl Burger was appointed by Richard Nixon in 1969. Burger served under Eisenhower as Assistant Attorney General in charge of the Civil Division of the Justice Department, and then was appointed to the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, where he served 13 years until his appointment by Nixon.

William Hubbs Rehnquist was appointed by Ronald Reagan in 1986. Rehnquist served as an Assistant Attorney General under Richard Nixon, who appointed him to the U.S. Supreme Court as an Associate Justice in 1972. Reagan elevated him to Chief Justice 14 years later.

Conclusion

The point of the above summary is to show how standard it is for a Chief Justice nominee to have an extensive public record by which he can be known, and how deviant it is for a Chief Justice nominee to have such a slim public record-at least according to his own proponents-that nothing sensible can be known about him, and we must accept him simply because he has been nominated.

As for the argument that he should be approved simply because he has been nominated, the record shows that Washington's second nominee was rejected, and that three of Grant's nominees withdrew in the face of certain defeat, after his first choice turned him down. Even Grant's fifth choice, however, had a much more substantial record than Roberts does.  To think that George W. Bush is due more deference than George Washington and Ulysses S. Grant is clearly absurd. Yet, this is what Roberts' defenders are arguing, in effect.

There are plenty of substantive reasons to oppose the Roberts nomination. The historical record shows that there is every reason to require a public accounting from him.  To do otherwise would lower the bar for no reason whatsoever, except to hoodwink the American people.

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48 Comments

Please Note!
I'm not saying that all the above were great men. To the contrary, some--such as Taney--were clearly anything but.  However, all were public figures, which gave us a fair opportunity to judge them ahead of time and allowed the Senate to perform its duty to advise and consent with informed consent.

By laying out the historical record in condensed form, I hope to have shown how extraordinary the current situation is. How unwarranted is the demand that such a slippery, ill-defined character be approved for the highest judicial office in the land--an office with a lifetime tenure.

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-09-05 03:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Please Note!
This our first post-Bork CJ nomination, so I'm not too surprised that we're getting a nobody instead of a statesman. I suppose it's too bad that the premium that's been placed on recent AJ nominations -- lack of a paper trail, and the need for youth in order to promote on-the-bench longevity -- has trickled up to the CJ level as well.

That said, I don't think having Roberts as CJ instead of AJ is any more inherently damaging, other than sending a weird message about how screwy the country's sense of meritocracy has gotten. The CJ doesn't have the power to determine alone what cases get taken, and he doesn't get a weighted vote... the only way he can throw his weight around is by assigning which member of the majority gets to write an opinion (by assigning the opinion to the most lukewarm member of a majority, he can dilute the impact of an opinion by a majority he doesn't agree with).

(Someone over at Kos had a good analogy; being CJ is like being a department head at a university. It sounds impressive, but you don't get extra privileges, your extra duties are just ticky-tacky administrative BS, and you're left in charge of herding eight strong-willed people who always disagree and feel entitled to talk all they want. Some might aspire toward the job, but most are thankful every day they don't have the job.)

Bush was partly boxed in because none of the existing conservative AJs are that promotable, and he doesn't want to have to fight three confirmation fights instead of two. Scalia and Thomas don't cut it because they'd prompt fights from the left (and Scalia is too much of a jerk to be CJ and Thomas apparently lacks the candlepower), and Kennedy would probably prompt a fight from the right, of all places. That leaves only the alternative of bringing in some statesman instead -- Orrin Hatch comes to mind, I suppose -- but by already using one pick on Roberts, now there's probably even more pressure on him to pick a woman and/or person of color with the second pick, not the whitest guy on earth (i.e. Hatch). So, Bush is left with the new guy, who seems pleasant enough and on familiar-enough terms with the other justices (since he's argued in front of them dozens of time, as the private sector's de facto solicitor general, and probably socialized with them all the time) to be able to run the ship effectively. (Just not in a direction that we liberals want it to go.)

by Crazy Vaclav 2005-09-06 11:35AM | 0 recs
The Problem With Bork Was Bork
A lot of people on both sides of the aisle just don't want to face up to this for some reason, but Bork was a terrible nominee, and he deserved to be defeated, not because of his ideology, but because of his psychology--his lack of judicial temperament.  And this is what his hearings revealed above all.  Bork had taken a number of different extreme positions over the course of his life, and then abandon them for other extreme positions. He never struck a judiciaous balance between claims, and the only person he ever seems to have been persuaded by was himself.  

This is fine for a German philosopher. For a US Supreme Court Justice, not so much.

But people took the wrong lesson from this. They thought it meant that anyone with a record couldn't be confirmed.  That's simply not so.  Bork was a psychological basket case, and his subsequent ravings have underscored that point.  He was totally atypical of the pool he was drawn from.  And thus, he is wrecking ball that just keeps on giving... or taking, as the case may be.

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-09-06 12:26PM | 0 recs
Re: The Problem With Bork Was Bork
Very good point... especially since elsewhere in history, nominees have gotten Borked on far less grounds than Bork himself. There was the whole string of Fortas/Haynsworth/Carswell in the late 60s, and your historical account makes it clear that Borking was alive and well in the 1790s with Rutledge. (I just found a good Wikipedia article on the sad tales of the rejected Supreme Court nominees.) Bork really seems to have left a permanent psychic scar on the Senate, though (he's the only guy on the list who became a verb... nobody ever gets Fortassed).
by Crazy Vaclav 2005-09-06 12:43PM | 0 recs
I'm concerned about his age
Rhenquist served for 19 years which seems to be a record. If Roberts is appointed he could easily be Chief Justice for the next 30 years and perhaps 40 years.

Roberts is guaranteed to get every single Republican vote. The Democrats should insist on complete examination of every single document the White House is holding back as a minimum requirement for a single Democratic vote.

Harry Reid should let it be known that this is a leadership vote and committee seats will be pulled for crossing the line. I suspect that one of the reasons Bush and Hatch are so confident that Roberts will win confirmation is that they know Harry Reid will not fight a Roberts confirmation.

Harry Reid has been a spineless disaster as minority leader and I expect Harry Reid will continue to be a spineless disaster.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-09-05 03:56PM | 0 recs
Not Quite How I See It
Markos has been ecstatic over Reid. You have been mercilessly critical. I think you're both mistaken, though you're both pointing at something important and real.

I don't think Reid is spineless.  I think he has fought very smart and very well on some occassions. He has gone farther than the DC Conventional Wisdom.   But I think that Markos mistakenly, sometimes unconsciously uses that (the DC CW) as his benchmark, and that leads to a very distorted view of what makes sense and what doesn't.  So I think it's more Reid's perspective than his spine that needs adjusting.

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-09-05 04:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Not Quite How I See It
I have no problem with naming Reid's problem one of perspective. In fact, it is probably a more accurate description and I heartily endorse it. I'm a firm believer in naming a problem accurately. Thank-you for the insight.

What is frustrating is how difficult it has been to get the attention of the Democratic leadership. Thinking of it as a perspective or mind set explains their stubborness. It also is somehow even more depressing. The old adage "You can't teach an old dog new tricks" comes to mind.

Your insight does not affect my belief that the Democratic Party will never be an effective opposition party until it has a new minority leader, or God willing a new majority leader after 2006. I've seen no evidence that Reid has an oppositional bone in his body.  

by Gary Boatwright 2005-09-05 05:49PM | 0 recs
Perspective Is A Bitch!
What is frustrating is how difficult it has been to get the attention of the Democratic leadership.
That's pretty damn close to the essence of it, IMHO.  

That and the insane notion that you lose politically by putting up fight, unless you are guaranteed to win it in the first place.

They've been keeping their powder dry so long that someone forgot to tell them we don't use flint-locks anymore.

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-09-05 06:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Perspective Is A Bitch!
They should have a warehouse full of powder by now. They can afford to use a little bit.
by Gary Boatwright 2005-09-05 06:33PM | 0 recs
A Warehouse Full of Powder
Except, I think that Katrina just swept it out to sea.

(Backwash is a bitch, too!)

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-09-05 07:50PM | 0 recs
Just Spin
Roberts was on everyone's list of the top appellate attorneys in the country. The American Bar Association has rated him "Well Qualified". Attempts to portray him as unqualified are doomed to failure.
by SLinVA 2005-09-05 04:33PM | 0 recs
Spin Yourself!
This is a summary of historical fact. Rather than respond to it, you repeat a talking point.  

It doesn't take a particle detector to figure out who's spinning here.

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-09-05 04:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Spin Yourself!
And isn't part of your point that we don't know enough about him to tell if he is qualified?  Without any public record I think your point is well taken.  An excellent analysis Paul and I recommended it.
by Demo Dan in Dayton 2005-09-05 04:53PM | 0 recs
Yes, And Even More...
As noted above, the first time that an Associate Justice was elevated to Chief Justice, this was regarded as very controversial. The notion that lawyers alone should be the final arbiters would have been laughable then.  

Even now, many--perhaps most--thoughtful lawyers would say the same.  "Well qualified" by a lawyer's yardstick simply means he passes one test, not that all other considerations should be tossed out.  

One thing this history should make plain is that a wide range of different public experiences have been considered adequate preparation.  In general, a broad knowledge of public affairs has been favored: those who have been in more than one branch of government and/or at more than one level. (Rather like George H.W. Bush, in fact.) Compared to this preference, Roberts is cloistered, indeed.

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-09-05 05:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, And Even More...
I forget the details and individuals, but some of our greatest Supreme Court justices were never appellate judges. I believe Brandeis was one example.
by Gary Boatwright 2005-09-05 05:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, And Even More...
William O. Douglas was never even a judge before he was nominated, and I think he was one of the greatest justices ever to serve on the bench.
by craverguy 2005-09-05 05:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, And Even More...
That was the one I was trying to remember. Those were the good old days.
by Gary Boatwright 2005-09-05 06:04PM | 0 recs
Earl Warren Was Never A Judge, Either
He was a prosecutor--county DA and State AG--and a governor, but never a judge.  That's one reaons people were so surprised by the direction he took. Figured he be "tough on crime."

Thing is, he was. He just knew the difference between being tough on crime vs. tough on criminals. Busting a two-bit criminal for something he didn't do just to make your record look good---that didn't sit well with him.  And, truth be told, plenty of people in law enforcement are quite pleased with the changes he helped bring about.  They have proceedures clealy established that substantially improve the quality of their work, reduce the number of false arrests, and increase the likelihoods of convictions once they've done their work.

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-09-05 06:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Earl Warren Was Never A Judge, Either
Douglas was none of those things. His only legal experience was as a law professor and as head of the SEC.
by craverguy 2005-09-05 06:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Earl Warren Was Never A Judge, Either
Sorry, I thought we were still talking about Douglas.

...Just ignore me.

by craverguy 2005-09-05 06:32PM | 0 recs
Not One Democrat
The Judiciary Committee Democrats are a bit more liberal than the caucus as a whole, and a reasonably partisan bunch, but I predict not one of them will follow the diarist's lead and suggest that Roberts is not qualified or lacks the experience to be CJ. Not one. The reason is that it's an easily rebutted argument. Arguing 39 cases before the S. Ct. (winning 25) is more of an accomplishment than the diarist acknowledges. Better check how historians and S. Ct. scholars rate some of those on that list before touting their superior credentials.
by SLinVA 2005-09-06 03:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Not One Democrat
I think we should just skip this crap and filibuster the guy when he comes to the floor. There's no way in hell the Republicans can beat the Democrats if even five of them decide to filibuster.
by craverguy 2005-09-06 03:13PM | 0 recs
Changing Subject Is No Rebuttal
The subject here is the pattern of history, and where Roberts fits within it.

I think everyone here realizes that one of the problems with DC in general and the Senate in particular (the Senate that only has 1 black person it, the Senate that did not have ONE member willing to challenge the 2000 Florida "election") is that it lives in a bubble, cut off from the real world.  This means it is (1) cut off from the people, (2) cut off from expert knowledge, and (3) cut off from its own history.

Thus, it would be no surprise if no Democrat makes this argument, but that's precisely the problem!

SLinVA is simply pounding on a rightwing talking point.  Focus your attention narrowly, ignore the broader context, throw out any criteria or capacity for critical questioning, and voila!  You have an entire Administration and all its appointees of the highest possible calibre.

But all they do is turn the world to ash and ruin.

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-09-06 03:33PM | 0 recs
Not Much To Rebut
History doesn't support the notion that the public or the Senate knew more about previous CJ nominees than Roberts. Most of the folks on that list didn't even testify before the Senate. Cutting & pasting biographical blurbs is hardly analysis. How are those folks better qualified than Roberts?

There are numerous Democratic attorneys in DC that know Roberts well. They aren't questioning his credentials, Democratic Senators aren't likely to challenge his credentials, and the ABA has already found that those credentials make Roberts "Well Qualified" for the Supreme Court. Roberts is one of the top appellate attorneys in the country, many would say the best, especially before the Supreme Court. I doubt very much that anyone will still be touting this line of attack after watching Roberts' performance before the Judiciary Committee.

by SLinVA 2005-09-06 04:02PM | 0 recs
Still Spin In Place of Logic
History doesn't support the notion that the public or the Senate knew more about previous CJ nominees than Roberts.
It doesn't?  Care to provide some evidence to support this claim?

Cutting & pasting biographical blurbs is hardly analysis.
Neither is typing keys on a keyboard.  

You are committing what philosopher Gilbert Ryle dubbed "a category mistake."  

If you have a specific criticism of the points I've presented, then let's hear it.

How are those folks better qualified than Roberts?
No, I've already presented the argument. It's up to you to present the counter-argument.

There are numerous Democratic attorneys in DC that know Roberts well. They aren't questioning his credentials, Democratic Senators aren't likely to challenge his credentials, and the ABA has already found that those credentials make Roberts "Well Qualified" for the Supreme Court. Roberts is one of the top appellate attorneys in the country, many would say the best, especially before the Supreme Court. I doubt very much that anyone will still be touting this line of attack after watching Roberts' performance before the Judiciary Committee.
Asked and answered.

I think you're out of your depth here. Better go back to the shallow end.

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-09-06 07:16PM | 0 recs
Oh, Please
Most of those CJ candidates didn't even answer a questionaire or testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Most provided few documents to the Committee, either. There is no historical basis for the diarist's assertion that the Senate or public knew more about previous CJ nominees than Roberts.

The argument that Roberts isn't sufficiently qualified simply will not play. It will not even be seriously raised by Senate Democrats because they know how easily it could be rebutted. Rather than acknowledge that fact, after the hearings I suspect some here will suggest Senate Democrats were "spineless" or worse for not making the argument.

I'm not going to get into a personal resume contest, but I doubt very much that I'm the one out of my depth when it comes to the federal judiciary.

by SLinVA 2005-09-06 07:52PM | 0 recs
Dude
You are out of your depth in a wading pool.
by Gary Boatwright 2005-09-06 08:29PM | 0 recs
Typical
Such a substantive rebuttal! Resorting to ad hominem attacks seems to be SOP for some here.
by SLinVA 2005-09-06 09:04PM | 0 recs
Rosenberg smoked you pal
If you can't see that, you can't see. I was just stating the obvious. Why doesn't anyone understand logical fallacies?

Rosenberg: I think you're out of your depth here. Better go back to the shallow end. Accurate observation.

SLinVA: I doubt very much that I'm the one out of my depth when it comes to the federal judiciary. Failure to recognize Rosenberg kicked your butt.

Boatwright: Dude (none / 0)

You are out of your depth in a wading pool.  Accurate observation.

Your arguments are factually inaccurate. Rosenberg answered them and instead of responding to his arguments, you repeated your defeated talking points.

You made a big deal about Roberts record as a Supreme Court Advocate. Who was the best Supreme Court Advocate of all time? According to The Volokh Conspriacy, Justice Stevens said it was Judge Bork. That doesn't bode well for one of your strongest arguments for Roberts, does it?

Being an advocate and being a Chief Justice are two entirely different things.

Better check how historians and S. Ct. scholars rate some of those on that list before touting their superior credentials.

So if better qualified and more rounded nominees were not highly regarded by historians and scholars, the solution is to accept a less qualified nominee? It is not an opinion, but a fact that Roberts is not as well qualified or as experienced as previous Chief Justices.

Your arguments are lame and have been throughly refutted. Whatever expertise you believe you have has been very well disguised.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-09-06 10:18PM | 0 recs
Not Reality Based/This Diary Has No Clothes
The entire diary is no more than biographical snippets cut & pasted from Wikepedia, couple with the diarist's conclusion that the experience of prior CJs made them better qualified than Roberts. There is not the slightest discussion of the abilities prior CJs brought to their various positions nor how they performed in those positions. Despite the fact that most of the CJs didn't even testify before a Senate Committee, didn't fill out an extensive questionaire, and didn't release voluminous documents, the diarist makes the bald assertion that the Senate and the public knew more about those nominees than Roberts. That's a remarkable conclusion considering that most of the CJs served prior to the advent of radio, TV & the Internet. The "not qualified" and/or "no public record" arguments won't fly, but don't take it from me, try to peddle it to Senate Democrats or the news media. I don't think anyone will pick up this theme, especially when there are numerous statements from Clinton Administration attorneys disagreeing. Of course, since they disagree with the premise of the diary, they too must be "out of their depth". LOL.
by SLinVA 2005-09-07 03:29PM | 0 recs
Roberts may be a stealth Bork
But he may not. The problem is that everybody else on Bush's list have public records that are truly scary. Rejecting Roberts doesn't magically get you another Harry Blackmum or David Souter or Earl Warren. Do I particularly like what I see in Roberts? Hell no. Do I want to substitute Luttig or Wilkinson or Jones or Rogers? Not even. Roberts may be an unproven disaster for every progressive movement in the country, but every public alternative is worse.

If we had six months to the next Presidential election it might be worth trying to play out the clock. But we need to face facts. Bush is going to get to replace a Conservative with a Conservative.

Republicans were hoping to use Roberts to establish ground rules for future openings. They wanted a twofer: replace a moderate with a conservative and put guidelines in place that would discourage tough questioning of candidates. Democrats need to vote against Roberts while accepting the fact that he is going to make it through. We can huff and puff as much as we want but the fact is that we don't have as much powder in the magazine as we would like, and half our gunners are still aiming at targets within our own fleet.

You don't have to like Roberts for Rehnquist but it is not worth a suicide assault right into enemy guns. Sometimes you just have to take some cannonballs in the side while holding your own fire. This is the wrong sea battle at the wrong time. The good ship BushCo is taking on some serious water and this is not the right time to give it a convenient bailout.

by Bruce Webb 2005-09-06 09:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Roberts may be a stealth Bork
Your analysis was appropriate before Bush nominated him to Chief Justice. It is very possible that even Scalia and some of the senior justices will be offended by an inexperienced nominee being elevated to Chief Justice.

Let's see how the next week plays out, how many documents Bush continues to hide and how the politics of Hurricane Katrina play out. Bush is trying to demand that Roberts be confirmed before the session starts so the court will not be short a justice.

Reid already derailed Frist's demand that the Roberts confirmation proceed before Rhenquist's body is even in the ground. The best political strategy is still to oppose. The Democrats don't have to take it to a filibuster, but they have to start demanding some respect for being a loyal opposition.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-09-06 10:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Roberts may be a stealth Bork
Unfortunately, how hard we should fight Roberts depends on who they're going to nominate to replace O'Connor. That's probably why the strategic minds at the GOP took the O'Connor seat off the table temporarily, so we have no sense of what's coming down the pike next and we're just left judging the Roberts-for-Rehnquist swap on its own merits.

Up until this weekend, yeah, I would have said let's throw everything and the kitchen sink at Roberts, filibuster included... but that was largely because of how dramatically a Roberts-for-O'Connor swap would shift the court's balance. At this point, now that it's a Roberts-for-Rehnquist swap (which doesn't really affect the court's balance much), the calculus has changed and it might be acceptable to let Roberts by on a 60-to-40 vote with strenuous questioning, so that the basic ground rules remain the same for the O'Connor replacement.

That's because the O'Connor replacement is really the one that matters, that can swing the balance of the court way to the right. If Bush has the balls to nominate Janice Rogers Brown for that seat (and considering how much water he's taking on at this point, I doubt he would now), that's when the kitchen sink comes out. Because I'd hate to throw the kitchen sink at Roberts, miss, have him get on the court anyway, and not have the sink available when it's time to use it on Brown or Edith Jones.

by Crazy Vaclav 2005-09-06 11:51AM | 0 recs
Still trying to figure out the logic...
It seems that the logic is, "We don't know anything concrete about Roberts, therefore we MUST oppose!" I don't get that. Bush was going to nominate a conservative and that's his right. From my perspective his candidate list looked like scary, scarier and scariest, while Roberts earned more of an "ominous" to me. Of course I don't like many of the positions he argued on behalf of Republican adminstrations but you have to take those briefs with a big grain of salt. That is, they don't necessarily reflect his personal views. What do I want in a nominee? That he or she will listen to each side of the case before them and render a sincer, rational, thoughful decision based on precedent and their own interpretation of the constitution. What I don't want is advocates, whether they be conservative or liberal.

What I am getting at is if you want Dems to unanimously vote "no" on Roberts or even filibuster, then it seems that, for all intents and purposes, you want Dems to fight ANY conservative nominee. For all the polls that show poor approval ratings for GWB, approval of Dems has been nothing to brag about. Americans are sick of partisan politics and obstructionist tactics. If you want the Dems to strongly oppose Roberts, thereby almost ensuring things get protracted and nasty, then you better have a damn good reason. From my perspective, the only two reasons liberals/dems are advocating opposing Roberts is:

  1. He's a conservative
  2. We don't know enough about him.

Point #1 is not a legitmate reason, and as for point #2, the candidates that we DID know a lot about were really really scary so I'm GLAD we didn't get one of those. I guess I just don't know whom liberals/Dems were realistically expecting. GWB ran on a very conservative platform. Republicans, in general, have shifted to the right, IMO. Americans, fully aware of this, elected them into office. Conservatives control both the legislative and executive branches of the gov't. Americans that voted for GWB et al. expect that he will nominate men and women to the judiciary that share this conservative outlook. Put simply, conservatives who elect conservative into office expect them to appoint conservative judges; likewise for liberals. I think this is a reality with which many of us haven't fully come to terms. Americans will simply see us as "crying wolf" over any conservative nominee and at the end of the day Roberts will STILL be confirmed and we'll be viewed as the same old sour grapes democrates.
by bigdaddy 2005-09-06 01:26PM | 0 recs
Actually We Know Quite A Bit About Him
But Roberts' supporters are trying to explain it all away, and say he wasn't responsible for what he wrote.  

Whether you know it or not, you are simply repeating one of the most powerful rightwing spin points.

As the NAACP explained in announcing it's opposition [PDF]:

Of specific concern to the NAACP is Judge Roberts past actions on issues including Affirmative Action, Voting Rights, Desegregation, Education, Employment Discrimination and Court Stripping.

Some of the more objectionable policies supported or promoted by Judge Roberts include:

  • VOTING RIGHTS: The fact that he was a principal architect of opposition to the "effects" test under the Voting Rights Act. The "effects" test allows voting discrimination to be proven even if discriminatory motivation to deny or abridge the right to vote could not be demonstrated as long as you could establish a discriminatory outcome. Congress overwhelmingly voted to maintain the "effects" test.

  • AFFIRMATIVE ACTION: While working for the US Department of Justice, Judge Roberts called the U.S. Civil Rights Commission's support of Affirmative Action `circular' and stated that "no recognition of the obvious reason for failure: the affirmative action program required the recruiting of inadequately prepared candidates."

  • DISCRIMINATION IN EDUCATION: Also during his tenure at the Department of Justice, Judge Roberts fought to restrict the application of federal laws banning institutions that receive federal funds from discriminating in Grove City College v. Bell.

  • EDUCATIONAL ACCESS: Judge Roberts' criticism of the U.S. Solicitor General's Office for failing to support a Texas statute allowing school districts to deny enrollment to the children of undocumented U.S. residents.

  • SCHOOL DESEGREGATION: His conclusion that it was within Congress's authority to prohibit federal courts from ordering public school integration strategies such as busing.

While the NAACP will continue to review Judge Roberts' record as more of his past documents are made available, we have, at this point, seen enough to know that Judge Roberts' past positions are in direct opposition to the values and priorities of the NAACP. Thus we oppose Judge Roberts' nomination, and we strongly urge that he not be confirmed.

Now, if GW Bush can't find a single conservative who has a better record on race than that, then perhaps he ought to consider nominating a moderate instead.

Heck, I'll even volunteer to give him the names of a few liberals, if he's really stuck.

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-09-06 02:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Actually We Know Quite A Bit About Him
I'll read the article you posted as soon as I get the chance. But I am not concerned whether what I said is a "spin point" or a "talking point" or whatever. I don't pay attention to all that nonsense. I simply believe what I believe to be correct regardless if that's liberal, conservative, or none-of-the-above. I didn't say Roberts "isn't responsible" for the briefs he wrote. I don't think saying "I was following orders" earns you a get out of jail free card. Instead, what I was saying is that you can only glean so much from those briefs and that they should be taken with a grain of salt. How big? You decide. But I think in the absence of actual judicial opinions on key subjects, attempting to turn said briefs into smoking guns is logically flawed. I think having some unknows is better than having the knowns of almost all of GWB's candidates
by bigdaddy 2005-09-06 05:30PM | 0 recs
What You Don't Know CAN Hurt You
But I am not concerned whether what I said is a "spin point" or a "talking point" or whatever. I don't pay attention to all that nonsense.
If you don't pay attention to it, then you are all the more vulnerable to it.

"The unexamined life is not worth living."
   -- Socrates

"And gets you in a world of hurt, too!"
   -- Sun Tzu

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-09-06 07:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Actually We Know Quite A Bit About Him
But I am not concerned whether what I said is a "spin point" or a "talking point" or whatever. I don't pay attention to all that nonsense.

If you repeat the talking points of the RWNM, you shouldn't be surprised at being labeled a troll. Parrotting right wing talking points is a specialty of the gang at Blueprint Magazine. Will Marshall is a neo-con sockpuppet:

Marshall was one of 15 analysts who wrote the Progressive Policy Institute's foreign policy blueprint, "Progressive Internationalism: A Democratic National Security Strategy". (2) Using language that mirrors that of the neoconservative Project for the New American Century (PNAC), in October 2003 PPI hailed the "tough-minded internationalism" of past Democratic presidents such as Harry Truman.

When you use the language and talking points of the RWNM, you shouldn't be surprised to get raked over the coals by progressives.

But I think in the absence of actual judicial opinions on key subjects, attempting to turn said briefs into smoking guns is logically flawed.

Would you mind taking one side of an argument? Initially you claimed that we know quite a lot about Roberts. Now the absence of judicial opinions is the reason we can't rely on the opinions Roberts argued in his briefs. Which is it? Do we know a lot or not enough?

Save your political canon-volley for a true ultra-right wing nutjob.

Is a political canon-volley bad? That's a label straight out of the troll dictionary. I don't have any idea what a "political canon-volley" is, but that's exactly the type of language ultra-right wing nutjobs use.  Are you asking me to be nicer or to not disagree too strongly?

Gee. I can't imagine why I ever mistook you for a troll.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-09-06 10:39PM | 0 recs
The logic of strawman arguments
From my perspective, the only two reasons liberals/dems are advocating opposing Roberts is:

He's a conservative
We don't know enough about him.

In addition to all of the reasons Paul listed, environmentalists have serious concerns:

Earthjustice Executive Director Buck Parker said that the non-profit environmental law firm he leads is "concerned that Judge Roberts may fail to uphold our key environmental safeguards as a Supreme Court justice."

In a key 2003 environmental case, Rancho Viejo, LLC v. Norton, Judge Roberts questioned the constitutionality of Endangered Species Act safeguards, Parker said.

"Roberts's arguments advanced a distorted view of Congressional power that could threaten to undermine a wide swath of environmental protections, including the Clean Air Act and the Clean Water Act," said Parker.

In another case, Parker said, "Judge Roberts also displayed a flippant attitude towards preventing the extinction of what he called `a hapless toad that, for reasons of its own, lives its entire life in California...'" Parker said this language contrasts with the consistent recognition of the value of species reflected by every court to consider the issue, including decisions by conservative Republican-appointed judges.

In opposing the 2003 nomination of Roberts to the D.C. Court of Appeals, the Alliance for Justice, which advocates for an independent judiciary, said Roberts has a record of "limiting the role of federal courts in protecting the environment."

There are also specific reasons to be concerned about Roberts' views on the Patriot Act and related issues:

Judge John G. Roberts Jr. was interviewing for a possible Supreme Court nomination with top Bush administration officials at the same time he was presiding over a terrorism case of significant importance to President Bush.

Roberts recently released details of the months-long interviewing process showing that he met with Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales and other administration officials about the Supreme Court job while sitting on the three-judge panel that eventually allowed Bush to resume the use of military officers to conduct trials of terrorist suspects held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The "military commissions" are central to Bush's anti-terrorism strategy.


There is a whole host of specfic reasons to be concerned about Roberts' views about federalism and the Constitution.

Since when did asking a nominee to be Chief Justice of the Supreme Court become "crying wolf"?

Could you also explain why trolls always pretend to have Pretty Heavy Degrees? Does it give your opinion greater weight in Freeperville if you say you have a PHD?

by Gary Boatwright 2005-09-06 04:45PM | 0 recs
Re: The logic of strawman arguments
What's amazing to me is that you accuse me of using a strawman argument (I wasn't) then go on to use an ad hominem attack by calling me a troll. I have a PhD in biomedical sciences and currently work at UCSF, not that it's relevant to this conversation. Why don't you go to the hannity.com forums and look up "mawst95"--that's me--and see me and a few other liberals take on the conservative nutbags on their turf.

What's dissapointing is that numerous cons there have started threads about how whenever they've joined DU or other liberal sites they are almost universally banned or instantly labeled trolls. It seems that being attacked for disagreeing with the majority isn't a trait soley exhibited by conservatives. Of course, I told these cons they they were probably being antagonistic or inflamatory and that's why they were attacked and/or banned. But now I get to experience it first hand. I am a proud progressive and I stand up to right-wing BS no matter what. Why don't you guys come over to the hannity forums. Believe me, we are vastly outnumbered but we put up a pretty good fight. And you should watch their anti-stem cell and intelligent design arguments crumble when debating a real scientist. Its a beautiful thing:)

As for the crying wolf comment--I was simply reitterating what several apparently well-respected commentors have stated. Save your political canon-volley for a true ultra-right wing nutjob.

by bigdaddy 2005-09-06 05:41PM | 0 recs
Well Respected Commentators Are Our Problem
In case you hadn't noticed yet.
by Paul Rosenberg 2005-09-06 07:06PM | 0 recs
Re: The logic of strawman arguments
What's amazing to me is that you accuse me of using a strawman argument (I wasn't)

Why can't a PHD recognize a strawman argument? Look at what you said:

From my perspective, the only two reasons liberals/dems are advocating opposing Roberts is:

He's a conservative
We don't know enough about him.

If you are not a troll, you are ignorant about the in depth critiques that have been presented against Roberts. Paul and I have just presented a summary of most of the arguments that have been raised about Roberts' qualifications.

If you have a PHD, you should be able to count to seven. Paul raised five distinct issues of concern and I threw in two more. The "only two reasons liberals/dems" oppose Roberts are clearly strawman arguments. You are denying the obvious.

Let's look at another one of your "arguments":

Americans will simply see us as "crying wolf" over any conservative nominee and at the end of the day.

That's a blatant right wing talking point. Did you pick that up from Hannity or O'Reilly? Crying wolf? The hearings haven't even started and you are already accusing Democrats of "crying wolf."

Who are the "well respected commenters" who stated "crying wolf" was a problem for Democrats?

If you are a progressive, you should consider spending less time at hannity.com. It is warping your brain and your perspective. Or maybe you should stick to scientific arguments you know something about. Your arguments have no foundation and are ludicrous.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-09-06 08:41PM | 0 recs
Re: The logic of strawman arguments
He can't recognize the strawman argument because he built it himself... out of hey! that was my joke!
by Paul Rosenberg 2005-09-06 11:18PM | 0 recs
Your success in Little League is noted
Why don't you go to the hannity.com forums and look up "mawst95"--that's me--and see me and a few other liberals take on the conservative nutbags on their turf.

Congratulations on your success at conquering the dimwits at hannity.com. I guess we all have to try out our training wheels somewhere. Welcome to the reality based community bigdaddy. Unfocused, irrational gum flapping isn't considered persuasive in this neck of the woods.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-09-07 04:35AM | 0 recs
Skipping all that nice analysis stuff
I'm not the history buff you guys are, but I love the talking point.

We don't need any more GOP insider hacks. Lack of experience, incompentence for an important job--these are important things to consider. Picking  John Roberts to be Chief Justice of the Supreme Court is like putting Michael Brown in charge of FEMA.  

by Colorado Gringo 2005-09-06 04:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Skipping all that nice analysis stuff
Not quite.

The "drive this mother into the ground" attitude is there in both selections...but Roberts's youth is important. His legal opinions are very unsettling...he tends to believe that the federal government really has no power over the states...See Rancho v. Norton...and that the Fourth Amendment does not imply a freedom of movement...Hedgepeth v. WMATA.

Anchoring Roberts as Chief Justice allows Bush to pick another solid legal conservative to replace O'Connor and cement his legacy with the next vacany in Stevens or Ginsburg.

Nevertheless...Roberts is not a partisan hack. He's a judicial activist who has opinions far outside the mainstream. Hopefully the Democrats aren't afraid to say that.

by risenmessiah 2005-09-06 10:45PM | 0 recs
Nail. Head. Whap! Whap! Whap!
He's a judicial activist who has opinions far outside the mainstream. Hopefully the Democrats aren't afraid to say that.

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-09-06 11:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Nail. Head. Whap! Whap! Whap!
How do you do that tag for the posts?
by risenmessiah 2005-09-07 10:20AM | 0 recs

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