Clinton, Obama and the "Trust" Factor

I wrote this for today's Beyond Chron, San Francisco's Alternative Online Daily.

In the presidential campaign, we've heard a lot about "experience" (a plus for Hillary Clinton), "change" (Barack Obama's strongest point), and "electability" (which helps John Edwards.)  But one factor that has yet to play a role is "trust." It is one thing to hear what a candidate has to say, but how can progressives know who will stick to their guns when the right-wing noise machine attacks - and who will capitulate, triangulate and take our support for granted?  If "trust" becomes a major concern for Democratic primary voters, Hillary Clinton could be in trouble.  And while a candidate can tout their resume to boost "experience," their platform to project "change," and good poll numbers to push "electability," there isn't much they can do about the fact that voters don't trust them.  Especially when you've been in the public eye for 15 years.

Lately, I've heard some argue that there is little difference between Clinton and Obama on the issues.  They both oppose gay marriage, but support civil unions.  They both promise universal health care, but Obama says he'll do it by the end of his first term and Hillary at the end of her second.  They both say they'll get us out of Iraq, but have been vague about residual forces - and were both wishy-washy on the question of de-funding the War after Congress could not muster enough votes for an actual deadline.

The real difference, however, is on trust.  Obama has always been against the War in Iraq since before it started, while Hillary voted for it, refuses to apologize for that vote, and never supported withdrawal until right before the 2006 elections.  It's not enough just to hear what each of the candidates have to say.  Where they stood at moments when it was not popular tells you whether you can trust the candidate to stand on principle.

As a progressive, I don't trust Hillary Clinton because her husband repeatedly betrayed the Left whenever it was convenient.  The last Clinton Administration brought us Don't Ask Don't Tell, NAFTA, the Defense of Marriage Act, the Telecommunications Act of 1996, the Helms-Burton bill, and Welfare Repeal.  Hillary could have shaped her own path as a U.S. Senator, but Iraq has only solidified the mistrust that began in the 1990's.

Hillary's top campaign pollster, Mark Penn - who helped engineer Bill Clinton's anti-progressive campaign in 1996 of triangulation - is the C.E.O. of a union busting firm.  And while Hillary loves to say she worked at the Children's Defense Fund for a year, the vast majority of her legal career included representing Wal-Mart, Tyson Foods and other corporate interests.  

But to get the nomination, Obama still has a way to go on the question of trust.  As I've argued before, Obama is in a better position than Clinton or Edwards to seize the mantle on Iraq because he was always against the War.  All other things being equal, primary voters should trust him more on this question.  But having been right in 2002 is not enough; Obama needs to set himself apart from Clinton regarding what we do today.

And it looks like Obama is finally getting the message.  In a major speech yesterday, he broke from his prior position of waffling on how to get us out of Iraq.  "The best way to protect our security," he said, "and to pressure Iraq's leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops. Not in six months or one year - now.  If we start now, all of our combat brigades should be out of Iraq by the end of next year."

John Edwards has successfully gotten anti-war progressives to trust him on Iraq - even though (like Clinton) he voted for the War in 2002.  That's because he firmly repudiated his prior position, repeatedly apologized, and has taken a more consistent stance on getting out than either of the two major candidates.  It's ironic that Obama, who should have sewed up the progressive vote by now, has actually lost ground because Edwards has given the Left more reason to support him.

In the absence of knowing much about a candidate like Edwards or Obama, trust can go a long way.  But when a candidate like Clinton is a known quantity - and has given voters 15 years reasons not to trust her - it will be very difficult to convince them otherwise.  
"If Democratic voters pick experience," said pollster Mark Blumenthal at Yearly Kos, "Hillary Clinton wins. But if they pick trust as the most important issue, she could lose."

Because Hillary has the advantage on "experience," her campaign has tried to confront two other issues where she has a perceived weakness - "change" and "electability." She argues that her 35 years of experience has made her the "most effective agent of change," and recent poll numbers show that she could beat any Republican nominee.

A slick re-invention campaign can persuade voters who want change that you are that candidate, and Democrats who want to win are swayed by poll results that objectively show you're electable.  But "trust" is a more powerful gut feeling that voters have, and I don't see what Hillary could do if it becomes a theme in the race.

A recent New York Times poll found that voters - on both the left and the right - don't trust Hillary.  "This wouldn't be that big a deal if it weren't for the last seven years," said columnist Andrew Sullivan.  "But we are at war; and we have lost trust - with very good reason - in the leaders of this war.  One reason why the current debate about what to do next in Iraq has become so bitter so quickly is precisely because none of us can trust what the government says or its motives."

Voters think, but first they feel.  And before they can objectively conclude that your campaign platform and your experience is worth supporting, they must first have that gut feeling that you are telling them the truth.  If Hillary Clinton does not get challenged on "trust" during the primaries, Democrats run the risk of having the Republican nominee attack her on this in the fall.  And they will regret it later.

Send feedback to paul@beyondchron.org

Tags: Barack Obama, Change, Electability, experience, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, presidential primary, trust, Yearly Kos (all tags)

Comments

67 Comments

Re: Clinton, Obama

A recent New York Times poll found that voters - on both the left and the right - don't trust Hillary.

 - It will be more believeable if you had a link to the poll.

Voters think, but first they feel.  And before they can objectively conclude that your campaign platform and your experience is worth supporting, they must first have that gut feeling that you are telling them the truth.

-  Apparently they must have made that decision as recent polling shows.

Democrats run the risk of having the Republican nominee attack her on this in the fall.  And they will regret it later.

- this is a bogus line . Republicans will attack on anything they want too regardless.

John Edwards has successfully gotten anti-war progressives to trust him on Iraq - even though (like Clinton) he voted for the War in 2002.

- Do you know that Clinton has a serious lead among anti war liberals.

by lori 2007-09-13 06:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama

good job lori, I am one of those anti war liberals.  My preference would be to vote for Gore.  But of all the people running now, I will vote for Clinton.  The past is past. Let's move on, neither Edwards or Obama is going to win me over by attacking her with any of the lame issues they have used and most particularly not with the sexist attacks EE has launched.

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2007-09-13 07:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama

I agree here.  I would like to see the link.  Otherwise, it is suspect.

by iamready 2007-09-13 01:47PM | 0 recs
It's Nice to Know Obama Supporters

Are so committed to Environmentalism that they not only recycle their empties but their rhetoric as well.

by Edgar08 2007-09-13 07:15AM | 0 recs
What does that even mean?
Every single pro-Clinton dairy or comment is utterly unique, like a snowflake???
by HatchInBrooklyn 2007-09-13 07:30AM | 0 recs
Yes. LOL.

Like a snowflake.

by Edgar08 2007-09-13 07:31AM | 0 recs
Re: What does that even mean?

yes and each one smells fresh like a early spring snowflake.  Thank you for noticing! = )

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2007-09-13 07:42AM | 0 recs
Re: What does that even mean?

Actually, who knows if each snowflake is unique.

Since the earth was formed about 4.5 billion years ago, about a million million million million million snowflakes have fallen - but Mr. Bentley made his pronouncement of the cold hard facts after looking at just over 5,000 of them.
However, one may say with a reasonable degree of certainty that some of those Clinton diaries sure are flaky.
;)

http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments /s1784760.htm

by misscee 2007-09-13 09:47AM | 0 recs
The "Trust" Factor

This continual rehashing of lies is tiresome. I realize that in order for you to make the case for Obama you have to tear Hillary apart because if you don't there is nothing that makes Obama seem a feasible alternative. But at least, maybe, have the good sense to state facts and then maybe someone will take Obama seriously.

Here are a few facts that perhaps you might consider:

1) Hillary did not vote for a war. What she did vote for was giving Bush the authority to "threaten" the use of military force if Hussein did not allow the inspectors back into Iraq to complete their UN mandate. Bush is the one that ignored the UN mandate and attacked Iraq. Bush is the one that lied to the Congress, to the American people and the international community.

2) When Obama was confronted with the fact that he had not been in the Senate when he voiced opposition to the war conceded that if he had been in the Senate at the time he may very well have voted the same way as Hillary.

So there you go. A few nice facts. I know that I don't trust a candidate that has surrogates that distort other candidate's positions like you do. No matter how much crap you write about them.

by DoIT 2007-09-13 07:21AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm not an Obama supporter

I'm not committed to anyone, but I'm leaning towards Edwards.

by Paul Hogarth 2007-09-13 07:28AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm not an Obama supporter

You are leaning towards Edwards nice to know .

One question :

Is Edwards of 04 the same Edwards of 08.

If he is not which one do you trust more ?

by lori 2007-09-13 07:31AM | 0 recs
propaganda

Your confusing campaign propaganda for facts. Intentionally, I know, but still...

Here are some "facts" for you from the other side... Newsweek

Obama's aides believe her vote for the war offers a possible chink in the formidable Clinton armor. They eagerly point out that she failed to read the full and classified National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq. Unlike the public version of that report, the full NIE included multiple caveats and disclaimers that cast doubt on key assertions by the White House.

And they draw attention to one key passage of Clinton's Senate speech on the authorization of the war. "In the four years since the inspectors left," Clinton stated in 2002, "intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile-delivery capability and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001."

Hillary was totally on-board with Bush's war from the beginning. She just hopes we all forget that.

by JoeCoaster 2007-09-13 07:57AM | 0 recs
Re: propaganda

Are you aware that the NIE you refer to was created two weeks prior to the vote? Before the vote there had not been a NIE for nearly 10 years on Iraq. Not a single one. Tenet hurriedly put together the NIE from mostly old material with a little added analysis just to make it appear authentic. The "caveats" were added because there had been no NIE on Iraq for so long that no one could confirm the information one way or the other. It was all old information and speculation in other words. So why would anyone in their right mind place so much emphasis upon someone not reading the entire trumped up mess to begin with? I mean other than trying to manufacture a political hit job.

by DoIT 2007-09-13 08:08AM | 0 recs
it was all trumped up...

The whole case for war was trumped up! That's the point! Hillary was being fed crap and thought it was caviar.

by JoeCoaster 2007-09-13 08:14AM | 0 recs
Re: it was all trumped up...

number 1,  Bullshit

number 2, not one cares, how long are you going to post this shit on blogs when no one cares and it is not hurting Clinton or helping your candidate?  Why are you so dedicated to loser politics?
 I didn't start out this race hoping to watch Clinton wipe the floor with the competition.  But that is what is happening because their staff and strategy has been so freaking lame.
Her polls keep rising, The others keep falling and you all are banging your heads against the same brick walls.  It seems insane to me.
And you are telling me I am digging a hole?  I think you are looking up as and can barely see my point as it flys past a mile over your head.
I have never seen a group of people so dedicated to losing an election primary as the people advising Obama and Edwards and those advocating for them on line.

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2007-09-13 02:28PM | 0 recs
Oh pleeeeeeze....!

Hillary voted for the war. Period. All that nonsense about how she Reeeeeaallly just voted to give Bush the authority to go to war but that wasn't reeeeeaaaalllly a vote for the war is just about as lame of an excuse as it's possible to deliver.

Everyone knew in 2002 that Bush was bound and determined to attack Iraq. Hillary voted to give him the authority to do just that. This is realyy not that complicated....

Hillary Clinton voted "yes" on the Iraq war. She was incredibly wrong to have done so. There was no rational or logical excuse except political cowardice. She has shown a lack of either judgement or a lack of courage... or both.

Hillary Clinton supported the invasion of Iraq with her Senate vote. Period.

Now please, no more lame rationalizations.

by Mystylplx 2007-09-13 08:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

A kucinch supporter will tell you obama voted for the war too

- rationalize that .

by lori 2007-09-13 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

Obama voted to fund an existing war which we were already enmeshed in because of the stupidity of the administration and the cowardice of too many Congressional Democrats. That's a big difference from voting to attack Iraq in the first place. The first was voting for a stupid mistake--the second is voting to take responsibility for a stupid mistake.

by Mystylplx 2007-09-13 08:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

A kucinich supporter will dismiss that as rationalization.

If you were against the war you won't have funded it for years , Kucinch says I was in the house I voted against the war and I voted for all the money since then so if you thought it was wrong , immoral and a mistake why did you continue the mistake by funding it continuously till now , the primary season . So if you are looking for someone who has consistently been against the war its me ( Kucinich) not Obama because he voted continuously to continue the mistake , the other excuses are rationalization Kucinich will say.

by lori 2007-09-13 08:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

America invaded Iraq--Iraq didn't invade America. What's done is done. Grownups take responsibility for their mistakes. Obama didn't make this particular mistake, but his votes show he's adult enough to know you can't just close your eyes and pretend it never happened.

To Hillary Clintons credit, she also has been unwilling to just close her eyes and pretend it never happened (unlike Edwards) but it's nonsense to try to excuse away her vote with rationalizations that a third grader would see through.

Hillary voted for the war. You can forgive her for that, and even still vote for her, but don't try to pretend otherwise. Obama voted to fund an existing war which he opposed from the start, but he was mature enough (unlike Kucinich) to realize that once we were there we were there.

by Mystylplx 2007-09-13 08:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

See rationalization is in the " eye of the beholder" the way you dismiss Hillary Clinton's position as rationalization , so can a Kucinich supporter dismiss your " Excuses " for Obama as rationalization , So if you are looking at purity on this debate each individual has his/her own way of interpreting it .

note ; i am not rationalizing clinton's vote , i think its the wrong vote.

I am just pointing out that what is a valid discussion for you can be rationalization to another especially in the iraq war debate.

by lori 2007-09-13 09:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

I think what Kucinich's rationalization is, is the idea that voting to fund the troops is the same as voting for the war. It's patently not. Voting for the war means someone said "yes, let's invade Iraq! This is a good idea." Voting to fund the troops in an existing war is saying, "OK, this was a dumb idea, but you can't unspill milk, so let's try to behave responsibly from here on out."

The point being that Kucinich's argument that voting to fund the troops is the same as voting for the war is patent and obvious nonsense. Edwards was one of the biggest supporters for the war, but nowadays he's trying to make that same nonsensical argument.

The word "rationalization" means trying to construct a logical justification for a flawed decision. We can argue all day about whether voting to fund the troops in an existing war was a "flawed decision." But I suspect what nearly everyone on earth agrees with is that voting 'Yes' on the AUMF was a flawed decision.

For Hillary Clinton to argue that she wasn't reeeeaaaalllly voting for the war is the worst kind of rationalization--a dumb one.

by Mystylplx 2007-09-13 09:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

You misuse the word when you talk about the situation here.

Edwards doesn't rationalize his decision because he says it was wrong. A rationalization would imply not admitting one's mistake.  

You also label any effort to take action now as conveniently an impossibility. Why is that? Is defunding really an impossibility or does it allow you to rationalize behavior and actions right now?

The question becomes what do we do now. As BTD points out- so far the options are "wait until I am President" or do something now. Of the candidates running, Edwards is putting his campaign money where his mouth is tonight and Dodd is using his bullypulpit as a legislator.

Where is Obama substantively on this?

Obama and Clinton's actual plans are substantially similar.

As per the link here:

http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId =1169

Therefore, I believe the only rationalization is by  you.

On Clinton, I don't fault her for her vote. I fault her for the aftermath of her vote. She made a bad choice as did Edwards. But, when i t comes to issue, I believe in the Janet Jackson, by asking the candidates "what have you done for me lately."  That for me, at least, is the litmus test. I don't have rationalize past behavior, I don't have to require Clinton, Obama or Edwards to be perfect, and I don't have to agree perfectly with their solutions- but I do have to think that its going to get our troops out as fast as possible.

by bruh21 2007-09-13 09:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

I didn't say Edwards was rationalizing his vote. He admitted his vote was wrong and apologized for it, so I give him credit for that. But when it comes to Edwards 'feel-good plan of the week' I really don't think he has a clue. Cutting the funding wouldn't end the war--it would just make it worse. Even Edwards (in his saner moments) says what we need is a sensible and responsible phased withdrawel which cutting the funds would not accomplish.

The problem is there's only one safe and responsible way for Congress to end this war, and that's to get the votes to override Bush's veto. Other than that we can hope Bush comes to his senses, or we can wait for the next President.

Or to put it another way--the real problem here is we have a moron in the white house who refuses to act responsibly. And both John Edwards and Hillary Clinton voted to give that moron a blank check on this war. It's too late now to act all surprised that the moron in question cashed the check they wrote for him.

by Mystylplx 2007-09-13 10:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

So a plan that people have been discussing for a while, is a feel good plan of the week. Although  he has also been calling for it since the failure back in March? See, what's funny is that I predicted that your version of reality would become th e Democratic norm, and they would once more convince themselves they are doing the right thing by capitulation. Sad to see I am probably going to be right on this.

by bruh21 2007-09-13 10:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

Which plan are you talking about? Cutting the funding? Sending the same bill back to the President over and over in a big game of chicken? Or his phased withdrawel plan, which isn't bad but how's he going to get it to happen? Or are you referring to his petition? I actually like his petition drive, but it's not exactly going to accomplish big things.

The fact is we need to over-ride Bush's veto, or we need to impeach Bush, or we need to just wait for the next President. Those are the realistic choices.

by Mystylplx 2007-09-13 10:58AM | 0 recs
BTW

Why do you think so many Republicans are salivating at the very thought of Dems cutting the funds? Such an act would take them off the hook and earn Dems the blame for the catastrophy that followed. Funny thing is it's already a catastrophy, but that doesn't matter in this case because Democrats aren't being blamed for it currently.

Cutting the funds is not only a dumb idea politically for Democrats, it's also a dumb idea strategically, IMO. It's almost as dumb an idea as voting for the AUMF was in the first place.

by Mystylplx 2007-09-13 11:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

Forgot to mention- the other element to this- if you search you can find that Edwards changed his views well before the public was solidly against being in Iraq. The formulation that he did not, and therefore that this isn't his real beliefs (not sure if  you intend to imply this or not) is false. You can look up by googling both his name and when his decisions were made versus the polling data. If this were as calculated as some seem to think you would see some correlation between the two. There isn't.

by bruh21 2007-09-13 09:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

I think most Democrats were opposed to the war by the time Edwards came out against it, but I'm not sure.

But all I'm really saying is that Edwards, once a very vocal supporter of the war, is now the most vocal opponent. And his plans for withdrawel seem to be designed to make angry anti-war Democrats 'feel-good' but don't really take into account the complexities or dangers inherant in the situation which he helped to create.

by Mystylplx 2007-09-13 10:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

Did you do the research that I suggested?

by bruh21 2007-09-13 10:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

No. I'm busy and if you have a point you want to make it's up to you to supply the information.

by Mystylplx 2007-09-13 11:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

uhm, since you ae the one making broad claims- shouldn't you- well have done your research to substantiate the claims beyond the surface arguments that have already been repeated about a million times?

by bruh21 2007-09-13 12:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

I'm not making any claims about when Edwards changed his tune on Iraq--you are...

if you search you can find that Edwards changed his views well before the public was solidly against being in Iraq.

I never claimed otherwise. What I did say was I thought the majority of Democrats turned against the war before Edwards did, but I also said I wasn't sure.

by Mystylplx 2007-09-13 12:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

I also don't see what this has to do with whether Hillary Clinton and her supporters are rationalizing when they try to argue that she didn't reeeeaaaallllyy vote for the war--she was reeeeaaaallllyy just voting to give Bush permission to go to war while hoping he wouldn't reeeeaaaallllyy do it....

by Mystylplx 2007-09-13 12:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

just because you think Clinton is a liar doesn't make it so/  I happen to think Edwards and Kerry were lying and that Clinton was telling the truth.  She wasn't running in 2004 and had a lot less reason politically to feel she had to vote the way she did.  Her explanation sounded a lot more valid to me considering her white house experience. There was no one more pissed off about that vote at the time than I was.  It was why I supported Dean and why I still hope that Gore runs. But barring that, I trust Clinton more than Edwards or Obama.

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2007-09-13 03:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

She's either a liar or she's stupid--and I know she's not stupid.

Everyone on earth knew GWB was bound and determined to invade Iraq. Her whole "I wasn't really voting for the war; I was voting to give a man, who had made it abundantly clear to everyone that he was determined to invade Iraq, permission to invade Iraq... but I was really hoping he wouldn't use that permission...."

Nonsense.

by Mystylplx 2007-09-14 08:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

Also if you check you will find that Edwards didn't want Kerry to apologize for the vote during the 2004 election-He didn't think it would be a good "political" idea- He's a trial lawyer- for goodness sake- He can't vote now and he's blaming Congress- The junior Senator made his vote initiallly, according to Bob Strum, for political reasons- No matter what you want to believe facts are facts.  -Boston Globe "John Edwards's changing tune on the Iraq vote"  http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articl es/2007/04/17/john_edwardss_changing_tun e_on_the_iraq_vote/

by Menemshasunset 2007-09-13 12:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

i have checked, and i know the good and the bad of what he did and didn't do. that's rather the point because the above poster commenting apparently does not fully know his background and history. you are also cherrypicking by the way from a set of facts you know from one article. thanks.

by bruh21 2007-09-13 12:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

thank you, I remember yelling at the TV when Kerry gave that idiotic answer, when they asked him if he would vote for the IWR again, knowing what he knew now and he said yes.  I wanted him to say "not with this president in office", instead he said "yes".  Now I know that was Edwards idea.

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2007-09-13 03:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh pleeeeeeze....!

Nice rationalization.  In fact Obama said that had he been in the Senate he might has voted just like Clinton did.  Rationalize that.

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2007-09-13 02:47PM | 0 recs
we all know that barack considers all aspects...

before reaching a decision.  it is safe to assume that he would have reached the same conclusion had he had access to the intelligence because there was nothing conclusive in the intelligence.  you could only support invading iraq if you started from the position that saddam was cheating.  given barack's approach of looking at things from all angles, he wouldn't have started or ended with that assumption...

by bored now 2007-09-13 05:18PM | 0 recs
Don't you get it

Even if you were right which you are not (that is why Edwards voted for the war and Kerry..Clinton was not running in 2004 and is a different story and gave a very different explanation from a very different point of view) all that a five bucks will get you a really mediocre cup of coffee at Starbucks. Do you not understand that America doesn't give a shit?  For the sake of your candidate can't you move on and find an issue that people care about?  Why are you beating this dead horse?

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2007-09-13 02:40PM | 0 recs
Re: The "Trust" Factor

Hillary did not vote for a war.

What does this mean?

disarm or be disarmed.

Try hard????

I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_ 101002.html

by misscee 2007-09-13 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: The "Trust" Factor

Hillary did not vote for a war. What she did vote for was giving Bush the authority to "threaten" the use of military force if Hussein did not allow the inspectors back into Iraq to complete their UN mandate. Bush is the one that ignored the UN mandate and attacked Iraq. Bush is the one that lied to the Congress, to the American people and the international community.

Good luck trying to thread that needle during the general election.  Didn't work for John Kerry, but hey, maybe things will be different for Hillary.

by Will Graham 2007-09-13 01:42PM | 0 recs
Re: The "Trust" Factor

it didn't work for John Kerry because that is not what Kerry said.

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2007-09-13 01:57PM | 0 recs
Maher askTHE question

It's not only that progressives should not trust Hillary on issues it's hard to trust her judgment.

As Bill Maher asked her directly...

Why Should America Vote For Someone Who Can Be Fooled By George Bush?

by JoeCoaster 2007-09-13 07:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Maher askTHE question

You must mean " bloggers " like you shouldn't trust her judgement because there is another world outside of the blogs who trust her judgement overwhelmingly . On experience , leadership , ability to lead and who is best to handle the war her lead is alomst 20 points on those issues to any one of their closest rivals.

I would rather trust in their own choices than a bunch of bloggers who cannot see the inconsistencies in their position , they throw their support to a candidate who sponsored the war resolution and spoke for the war on forceful terms and yet criticize Clinton in the same breadth and we shouldn't vote on her based on that.

There seems to be a confusion among some " bloggers " who think that they represent the entire swath of the progressive spectrum .

by lori 2007-09-13 07:51AM | 0 recs
trust American's judgement?

Your saying we should all believe in the wisdom of polls. I have no faith in American's judgement after the '04 elections. I pretty sure the wrong person will be elected president in '08....but hope springs eternal.

by JoeCoaster 2007-09-13 08:10AM | 0 recs
joe joe joe
now you are twisting the meaning of polls.  No one has ever said the predicted who should be elected.
We are just saying polls are proving you wrong.
by TeresaINPennsylvania 2007-09-13 08:16AM | 0 recs
Re: joe joe joe

Actually that's exactly the argument Lori was making.

Lori wrote:

On experience , leadership , ability to lead and who is best to handle the war her lead is alomst 20 points on those issues to any one of their closest rivals.

Teresa wrote:

No one has ever said the predicted who should be elected. We are just saying polls are proving you wrong.

Do you see the irony? Joe was saying the polls don't prove him wrong, then you say they do... yet you also say they don't predict who should be elected...

Funny.

by Mystylplx 2007-09-13 08:30AM | 0 recs
Re: joe joe joe

no, you are making no sense.  Reading comprehension may not be your best talent.

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2007-09-13 10:45AM | 0 recs
stop digging ...

you're in a hole.

by JoeCoaster 2007-09-13 11:04AM | 0 recs
Re: stop digging ...

ummm, do you need a window on your stomach so you can see where you are going? How about a gas mask?  Can we get you one?

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2007-09-13 01:55PM | 0 recs
how clever

That question was in 2004 when I asked it of Edwards.  But you notice that Maher doesn't ask Edwards that question because he said "sorry" and Bill likes him.  In actuality bill just doesn't like Hillary like he didn't like Gore in 2000, so we can expect him to spend the whole election season tearing her apart and leaving the asshole republican mostly alone like he did in 2000.  But by all means, let's promote what a great political mind Maher is.  Let's forget he is almost single handedly responsible for putting Ann Coulter on the map as a political strategist/pundit TV personality.
by TeresaINPennsylvania 2007-09-13 08:11AM | 0 recs
trust

Can you trust you? I doubt it after your false charaterization of Hillary's appearance at YKOS was debunked by many non-Hillary supporters...

Get a life...

by areyouready 2007-09-13 07:44AM | 0 recs
Get A Life?
Stay classy, areyouready.
by HatchInBrooklyn 2007-09-13 08:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Get A Life?

yeah, because areyouready is the only person on this blog who has ever told anyone to get a life and it is such a classless thing to say. ...little rolling eyes smiley should go here....

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2007-09-13 08:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Get A Life?

EXACTLY...Yesterday for example, dataguy got rated mojo for calling areyouready moronic, then he proceeded to call another poster clueless, I think someone else was idiotic and yet there was no big cry of outrage.  DennyCrane was the only one who asked him to lighten up on the name-calling.  Frankly,I think all of the name-calling is juvenile, but to take great offense at one poster and praise another is ridiculous.

by Kingstongirl 2007-09-13 09:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Get A Life?

lling Maher and ass.  I am still chuckling over that one.  People were outraged, just outraged that  I would say such a thing about Maher.  lol

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2007-09-13 10:31AM | 0 recs
try again

I got troll rated for calling Maher an ass. It was by a lot of Edwards supporters who were angry that I would dare call him an ass while he was in the process of saying something nice about Edwards. I am still chuckling over that one.

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2007-09-13 10:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Get A Life?

Yes, I saw that and was going to comment on the hypocrisy, but I had done so the night before already when I saw that nobody cared for another Edwards' poster's inflammatory remarks, not a soul, and highlighted that.  

by georgep 2007-09-13 10:45AM | 0 recs
Re:

TRUST is exactly what drives this election the most.  Democrats trust Clinton the most of all candidates.  On everything from "what to do with Iraq," "terror," "crisis management," "health care," "education," "stem cell research," etc.  In fact, there is not an issue in which Clinton does not have a major TRUST advantage with us.   This is not to be confused with LIKEABILITY or WARMTH, where we see Clinton beat the other candidates strongly amongst Democrats, but goes to the way people believe Clinton when she makes a statement.  They trust her, whereas with the other candidates they see a lot of politicking, statements made for political gain, not true conviction.

BTW, the "electability" question has strongly turned around from your previous perception.  We have seen your contention proven wrong in many state polls lately, but also nationally Clinton is seen as the most electable of the 3 (she leads all candidates against Giuliani, for example)

by georgep 2007-09-13 09:11AM | 0 recs
I look on the bright side

At least Mr. Hogarth didn't ask a five part question about legislation passed more than a decade ago.

by hwc 2007-09-13 09:12AM | 0 recs
Re: I look on the bright side

LOL!

by DoIT 2007-09-13 09:21AM | 0 recs
"Trust" Factor

Hillary hasn't been hurt IN THE LEAST by her stance on her Iraq vote or by the way she has handled it.  The new poll out yesterday is proof.
She is, far and away, the most trusted to end the war and bring the troops home.  She is more trusted than Edwards and Obama or any of the others.  Who was polled?  Democrats across the country, many of them declared anti-war Democrats.

This diary is redundant.  

by Regan 2007-09-13 09:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton

This line of argument about her vote failed six months ago and polls showed back then most Americans would not hold it against her so it certainly not going to work now either.

But you are right about one thing- I do "trust" Obama.  I trust him to never seem to know what he is talking about- I trust him to never be detailed or specific, I trust him to rely on pie-in-the-sky rhetoric that has no real substance, and I trust him to be a disaster if he was elected President because he simply does not have the experience or know-how to be able to effectively do the job.

by reasonwarrior 2007-09-13 01:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton

thats becaue they have no idea where she stands; hence why i will start reposting this on this subject. If the links do not work, I will repost them so that they do. we need to move from having abstract discussion in which you and others can ignore the point to substantive ones:

comparison of each candidate's plan with regard to Iraq:

http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId =1169

Money quote: "It appears that both Clinton and Obama would keep 40,000 troops in Iraq for a while if they become President, plus between 6,000 and 20,000 advisors and an always unspecified numbers of private contractors.
She plans to hold significant number of troops"

This appears to go until 2012. However, there is this:

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?dia ryId=1167

Money quote: "The United States would maintain a significant military presence in the Middle East and Persian Gulf region, probably including a continuous Navy and Air Force presence as well as Special Operations Forces and ground forces. Precise numbers and posture of the forces would depend on conditions at the time in Iraq and elsewhere in the region, as well as other demands on U.S. forces globally."

The Democrats knowledge of the candidate's plans with regard to Iraq

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?dia ryId=1177

Money quote:

Options given:

1) Make no cutbacks in U.S. troops in Iraq

Leave a substantial number of troops in Iraq, but have them concentrate on training Iraqis and targeting Al Qaeda leaders in Iraq.

Start withdrawing troops within the next three months, with all troops out within nine months from now.

Begin an immediate withdrawal of all U.S. troops in Iraq

What the American peo think Clinton supports?

Clinton 6% (option 1), 10% (option 2), 48% (option 3) and 28% (option 4). A huge 76 percent believe she will leave within 9 months of being in office.

by bruh21 2007-09-13 03:05PM | 0 recs

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