What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

So what is your tipping point? Over the last month we have seen our nominee shift from a "new kid of politics", to the same old pandering we know and loathe. Oh, don't get me wrong, I understand why he's doing it. I just think in the process Obama has lost the very thing that drew me to him and made his candidacy special.

The elect Obama movement of the last year and a half was based on having principles and sticking with them. Not proclaiming principles, and shifting to new ones to appeal to moderates. All of us who volunteered and worked for Obama have been preaching this very message. So it's been very disturbing to see his positions change, and I'm left wondering, what is my tipping point with Obama? How many positions can he "refine" before I say enough.

FISA was a slap in the face to his base, that has outraged many online and offline. His reversals on things from public financing to the Cuba embargo are disheartening. What are we to do? How many issue shifts is too many?

We all want and need a Democrat back in the Oval Office, let's demand that he bring the core principles of the party with him, and fight for them.

So what is your tipping point?

Tags: barack obama center compromise (all tags)



My tipping point?

When he stops pissing off people like the diarist.  Let's pray to Gawd that doesn't happen anytime soon.

by Blue Neponset 2008-07-08 08:33AM | 0 recs
Re: My tipping point?

Do I have a twin?

I did a double take on the diary title when I saw it. I thought to myself " did I repost my diary again"? lol

Why? See below.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/7/7/199/9 7816

by roxfoxy 2008-07-08 08:40AM | 0 recs
Re: My tipping point?

Err No spacemanspiff, I'm not this diarist or yet another A/k pretending to be me, pretending to be others, pretending to be this diarist.

by roxfoxy 2008-07-08 08:43AM | 0 recs
Re: My tipping point?

WOW! How did I miss your diary. I guess great minds think alike. :)

by ObamaGurl08 2008-07-08 08:44AM | 0 recs
Re: My tipping point?

Well, wait till you get accused by spacemanspiff of being aliveandkickin shortly.

You have now tied yourself to me and thereby to several others bloggers he imagines being A/k and thus doomed by the powers of his magical crystal ball.

by roxfoxy 2008-07-08 08:49AM | 0 recs
Re: My tipping point?

My tipping point with Obama came when he fought to discount the MI and FL votes.  Now I'm just sitting back watching him throw about a million voters under the ....um, bridge.

Essentially, he used you and now he's discarding you. He doesn't need your vote anymore, he's going for that big fat center now.

Consider yourself tossed.

by William Cooper 2008-07-08 10:55AM | 0 recs
Re: My tipping point?

"I guess great minds think alike. :)"

Girl Power!  :)

by roxfoxy 2008-07-08 09:00AM | 0 recs
Re: My tipping point?

That's actually genuinely disturbing.  "it puts the lotion on its skin" disturbing.

by MeganLocke 2008-07-08 02:48PM | 0 recs
Re: My tipping point?

I was not replying to willam cooper. I was showing a fellow gal above some love.

by roxfoxy 2008-07-08 03:34PM | 0 recs
Re: My tipping point?

Ya.  Sure makes you wonder doesnt it.

by herenow 2008-07-08 09:21AM | 0 recs
Re: My tipping point?


Why did my harmeless comment below warrant a TR?

by roxfoxy 2008-07-08 08:52AM | 0 recs
Re: My tipping point?

Because you were banned from this site, AliveandKickin

by DemsLandslide2008 2008-07-08 09:36AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

Dead Girl/Live Boy.  I kid, I kid.  

Really, though, unless it comes out that he was a mass murderer or something like that, I'll still support and vote for him.  Miles better than the alternative by any stretch.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-08 08:33AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

But isn't this the problem with politics nowadays? We choose sides, and we support "our guy" no matter what they do or say. At what point do we take back our country and demand that they do what they promised.

by ObamaGurl08 2008-07-08 08:36AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

When their side is better than our side. We're not there yet.

by vcalzone 2008-07-08 08:38AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

Of course it's the problem.  And we try to solve it on the local level first.  Example: find a local candiate who you really beleive in, who champions the issues that you support, and support them.  Build their power in the system, which gives them a platform to push the policies and ides that you support.

For Statewide or National candiates, it's different.  You have to comprimise, or be severely dissapointed.  Unless you're a Nader or Barr supporter, I don't think you're going to find a candidate that won't disapoint you some of the time.  And I have some policy disagreemtns with Nader, so there we are.

I am certainly not for blindly following "our guy", but I am most certainyl not for giving McCain the keys to the car because Obama has dissapionted me with some of his more recent statements and positions.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-08 08:44AM | 0 recs

It's pretty damn obvious that there are 2 choices here.  Are you seriously suggesting that you are going to "tip" over to the other side?  Do you expect me or anyone that is actually a Democrat believe that makes any sense given where these 2 political parties stand?


There is only one option here if you have any interest in any progress on any level.  Of course you have to continue to voice your opinion and try to make a difference that matters.  

This whole meme, flip-flopping etc. is just complete bull shit.  Seriously.  Give it up.  This guy is running for president.  Of course he is going to try to represent the most (as in over 50%) of the voters that will vote.  Anything less and he looses.

So you can go either "tip" yourself to a no-vote based on some justification in your own mind, or "tip" off to the other side and vote McSame.

Or you can actually voice your opinion, support your candidate, and continue to try to make a difference that matters.

by herenow 2008-07-08 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

At what point do we take back our country and demand that they do what they promised.

And who is this "we" you are referring to?  You use it as if all Democrats/Independents have the same stances on on every issue.  While some Dems are disappointed in him on his recent comments many others agree with him on certain ones.

You are forgetting most Democrats have alternate views on fiscal, social, domestic, foreign and national security issues...It's a big tent.

by hootie4170 2008-07-08 10:19AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

the only thing Obama lost points on with me was FISA,

but there will be no tipping point unless he becomes a Republican, he is still the best chance for change and getting this country to start moving left again.

by TruthMatters 2008-07-08 08:37AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

No, he flip-flopped on all those other things on which he never flip-flopped. He said he wanted to stay in Iraq forever! I know it's true 'cause the media said it. And then he said he wants women to have forced pregnancies! And how dare he refuse public financing! I wanted him to have LESS money to spend against McCain or something!

And then I'll show up out of the blue and post a diary under a username created to give the appearance that even the most loyal Obama supporters  are mad as hell and have given up on Obama!! He's politics as usual! He's not all new and sparkly like McCain!

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-07-08 08:54AM | 0 recs
I do find it funny

6, 7, 8 months ago Obamamaniacs seemed so sincere in their rants about Obama being differnt, and Clinton being a shill who would say or do anything to be elected, and she was only about winning.

Now that Obama will say or do anything, and the Obama supporters say we'll that is okay now, because it is all about winning afterall, it is perfectly  okay with them for Obama to change course to collect votes.

I know what that says about Obama ... it says he is an elected official.   But what does it say about Obama supporters?

by dpANDREWS 2008-07-08 10:58AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

When his policies are less progressive than McCain's. Any other point would result in a useless symbolic vote.

by vcalzone 2008-07-08 08:38AM | 0 recs
The Twilight Zone?

I'm pretty sure I've already commented on this diary...perhaps in another dimension?  But here's what I said.

I'm not particularly bothered by anything Obama has said or done lately.  I'm not a fan of his recent support of the death penalty, but I realize it's politically smart and I've no reason to believe he hasn't always held that position.  And, since it was a SC decision, I've also no reason to believe he can really change that decision, barring making the death penalty some sort of SC litmus test.

I'm bothered by FISA, but not so much because of Obama but because Congressional Democrats didn't have the guts to stick to their guns on no immunity.  

I'm not bothered in the least by his abortion stance, and I think the whole Iraq fuss is much ado about nothing, given his statements during the primaries and the fact that common sense dictates that a Presidential candidate can't make military decisions without consulting with the JCoS.

by freedom78 2008-07-08 08:48AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

He breaks his promise to his daughter that they will buy a dog, or he starts talking how bad cats are.

I agree with the diarist that Obama need to keep his promises and stick to his core principles. In the long run, such tactics really do politically work.

by Zzyzzy 2008-07-08 08:49AM | 0 recs
I will tip

if he announces that he is switching to the Republican party.  Other than that, he's my guy!

by activatedbybush 2008-07-08 08:50AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

My tipping point is when his "supporters" learn to read and not regurgitate silly talking points. He never flip flopped on public financing or Cuba and FISA is the one area I disagree with him on (yet he is still far better than the alternatives). but i do understand your "concern".

by Dog Chains 2008-07-08 08:51AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

I vaguely recall a day when people here would fight back against untruthful memes...now they just embrace them. It's like all the years of people learning how to see through fake media narratives have just disappeared.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-07-08 08:57AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

Um, yes he did. Obama was out front pushing for all candidates to use public financing. No matter how you shake it, he did a 180 on it. And yes, he changed positions on the Cuba embargo. A few years ago he was pushing for an end to the embargo, yet switched to a keep the embargo stance during the primaries.

by ObamaGurl08 2008-07-08 08:58AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

So go vote for not-Obama then.  Why do you think we give a shit?

by Blue Neponset 2008-07-08 09:01AM | 0 recs

I think people give a damn because this is a progressive site, why are you here Blue Neponset? Why would I vote for McCain? You do realize I have been volunteering for Obama since early last year.

I'm TRing your comment.

by ObamaGurl08 2008-07-08 09:07AM | 0 recs

Why would I vote for McCain?

Because that is who you want to win?  

I'm TRing you for being a troll.

by Blue Neponset 2008-07-08 09:14AM | 0 recs

Yes, you state a very good point, so let me ask, what could possibly be the tipping point for a group of "progressives" to vote against someone who has stood up and voted for us pretty much their entire career vs. a guy with a track record of 95% Bush supporting? If you answer that question with an actual tipping point, then you are a far different progressive then I!

by Dog Chains 2008-07-08 09:16AM | 0 recs

This diary isn't about switching support over to McCrazy. It's about how far we will allow our nominee to stray from our principles, before we call him out.

This is the problem with party politics. We can't criticize our nominee without being attacked.

by ObamaGurl08 2008-07-08 09:32AM | 0 recs

Crticism is allowed.  Look at the Anti-FISA comprimise group on his own website as an example.  He didn't purge the page, and did response to our concerns.

Smearing is not allowed.  Neither are right wing flip-floppng memes.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-08 09:38AM | 0 recs

Amen to that.

We aren't lemmings here, so just because something we didn't like happened and our prefered candidate made a policy decision with which we disagree doesn't mean we should follow the Repulican Lemmings off the Straight Talk McCliff.

by Why Not 2008-07-08 09:42AM | 0 recs

"Before we call him out"

Um, yeah, I must have missed people calling his stances out here, on Kos, on Huffington...Calling him out is one thing, using unfactual material generated by a lazy and corrupt media and the RNC is another. And you know how i know the media is complicit, because they refues to present the other side of their current story. And regardless of the fact that a 1 term senator is BEATING a 30 year, respected war veteran with a compliant media, ever notice how every story involves Barack "not doing good enough" or "where Barack is losing support" or "what position Barack has changed". it is really a sight to see.

by Dog Chains 2008-07-08 09:43AM | 0 recs

This is bs too.  Any normal human discusses principles and ideas and policies to state their views and to learn those of others.  That's progress.

This whole personal attack, offended emotional, finger-pointing, etc... is what children do.

There are a bunch of them here.  Playing both sides.

Of course you can have an intelligent conversation without getting personal with anyone about anything.  If that is what you want.  

Or you can come to a progressive blog and write a diary of rw talking points questioning our candidate (the only choice we have btw)... asking us when we are going to give up on him.

Seriously.  What exactly were u expecting.

by herenow 2008-07-08 09:58AM | 0 recs

what could possibly be the tipping point for a group of "progressives" to vote against someone who has stood up and voted for us pretty much their entire career

Let's see.. how many 'present' votes did he make?  

And how many Senate votes were recorded as 'not voting'?

And how many votes where he voted the 'wrong' way -- perhaps even FISA -- supposedly because there weren't enough votes to pass it?

I really don't see Obama standing up and voting for us pretty much his entire career.  I see Obama not standing up and leading when he should be.

Perhaps if he had the guts to stand up and do what's right, others would too and we could get stuff passed.

by wblynch 2008-07-08 12:17PM | 0 recs

If you actually have been volunteering etc, then snap out of this tangent and get it together already.  Seriously.  If you cannot see the bigger picture here, then do some reading.  Educate yourself on the actual issues and positions.  In case you havent noticed yet, this is an election.  For the president.  Of the United States.  (as in all of them)  And the winner is who has the most votes.  

You should be impressed by Obama's attempts to position himself where he has in the last week.  Because this is just getting started.  There are 527 ads coming out claiming he is the Abortion candidate.  Shit, the NRA has 40$million to spend to lobby their position with the voters.  He had to be ahead of the curve on these issues.  Period.

Your entire argument is bs.
There is no f'ing "tipping-point".
A flip-flop is a useless shoe.

This is not about you and your personally offended principles.  This is about winning against those that already hold the power.

You are either going to do something useful... or "tip".  Your choice, but don't expect people here to follow you over the edge.  

by herenow 2008-07-08 09:45AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

No, he didn't, he always indicated he would seek an agreement with McCain outside the purview of the current system (you see, reading comprehension tells me that if someone states they will seek an agreement with a specific person, it means the current system doesn't work for them, so they need to stipulate other things, otherwise why would they need to seek an agreement?). but McCain says the talks never happenned, and he's always been such a straight shooter? As far as Cuba goes, read his quotes, sometimes it takes some time to read proposals that don't take the new bush/Media/youtube sensation of one liners/up or down/no nuance or thought positions.

by Dog Chains 2008-07-08 09:05AM | 0 recs
public financing....he did a 180 on it.

It's classless (trollish) to repeat McBush's lies on this Democratic blog.

Obama said he would try to reach an agreement with the GOP candidate regarding public financing. When McBush refused to renounce unlimited 527 support, Obama could not possibly agree to such a disadvantage.

Get your facts straight.

by Beren 2008-07-08 09:23AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

This one's been working hard at expressing "her" Concern. Here's "her" first comment, defending the racist trash at FoxNews.

Baby mama is just another way of saying the mother of my kids. It has nothing to do with illegitimate children. That said, Fox needs to stop trying to use slang because it makes them look even more foolish.

by ObamaGurl08 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:06:45 PM EST
[ Reply to This |

by BlueinColorado 2008-07-08 09:06AM | 0 recs

You do realize that I'm black, don't you. Re-read that thread, and you'll see that I pointing out what the phrase meant, not defending FOX News.

by ObamaGurl08 2008-07-08 09:11AM | 0 recs
Re: WOW!

I've looked at your comment and diary history. You don't exactly give yourself a lot of credibility based on what you post here since you register three weeks ago.

Lots and lots of Concern.

Hillary for VP or Bust for this Obama Supporter

What Change Will Obama Bring?
by ObamaGurl08, Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:32:43 PM EST

I'm a longtime supporter of Obama's. I use to watch his podcasts, and have told everyone I know to vote for him. But over the past months, and specifically the past weeks, I find myself questioning what kind of change Obama is bringing to the table.

"I'm a lifelong member of the Democrat Party, and I've been a supporter of Barack Hussein Obama in spite of his history of far-left America-bashing...."

by BlueinColorado 2008-07-08 09:16AM | 0 recs
Re: WOW!

As Obama shouts "Et Tu, Obamagurl"

by Dog Chains 2008-07-08 09:18AM | 0 recs
Re: WOW!

I stand by all my previous comments, and diaries. Do you have a gripe with them? All of them had healthy discussions.

by ObamaGurl08 2008-07-08 09:22AM | 0 recs
I stand by all my previous comments, and diaries.

Standing by a pile of crap doesn't make it smell any better.

by Beren 2008-07-08 09:26AM | 0 recs
What really smells...

Yeah! Let's make sure we all toe the line here.  Hell, it doesn't matter if Obama agrees with every Republican position, so long as he has a "D" as his party affiliation!  Because policies don't matter, only that our "team" wins!  

There are so many assholes willing to jump on every legitimate point made that takes Obama to task.  And dude, you're one of them. Take solace, though.  You're far from alone.  

by DaTruth 2008-07-08 01:04PM | 0 recs
Obama agrees with every Republican position

That's even too crazy to get you a ticket to fantasy island.

But I'll give you credit for understanding the value of the BIG LIE when it comes to distracting the argument away from facts.

And you're obviously one of those assholes who jumps on every GOP talking point that is against Obama.

by Beren 2008-07-08 01:58PM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

FISA is the one area where he changed, and I'm sadly convinved he had little to no choice in the matter.

It was either switch, or look weak and more "left" than his own party. Not a good strategy.

by Falsehood 2008-07-08 08:53AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

Principles should overrule strategy. The GOP is going to call him all these things no matter what he does, so why compromise and sellout his base. That's my issue.

by ObamaGurl08 2008-07-08 09:03AM | 0 recs
Principles overrule strategy?

I'm not sure what "principles" would lead a longtime "Obama supporter" to think that Hillary Clinton was the only choice for VP.  If that matching has any value, it's in political expedience, not principles.

You have a lot of work to do before your motives are no longer opaque.

by Dracomicron 2008-07-08 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Principles overrule strategy?

Read the diary and not just the title, and you'll see my reasoning.

by ObamaGurl08 2008-07-08 09:35AM | 0 recs
I read the diary

Your premise is ridiculously transparent.

by Dracomicron 2008-07-08 09:39AM | 0 recs
they can call him what they want

but they won't have hours of filibuster footage talking about god knows what to splice into an attack ads.

If pleasing the Dem base was a good GE strategy we'd have President Kucinich.

by JJE 2008-07-08 09:35AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

That the GOP will call him on it doesn't mean the media will run it and give it legs.

by Falsehood 2008-07-10 11:07AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

If he pulls off his Scooby Doo mask and reveals himself to be John McCain, I'm out.  Other than that, I doubt that I would ever have a tipping point with any Democratic nominee.

Also, I find the various "flip-flops" on your list, other than perhaps FISA, to be wrong.

by rfahey22 2008-07-08 08:58AM | 0 recs
Agreed with you on this one. Thus

your comment is mojo'ed. I had a laugh though on the Scooby Doo mask allusion..

However our support for Obama doesn't mean we have to agree on his campaign's posture on FISA.

by louisprandtl 2008-07-08 09:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Agreed with you on this one. Thus

I guess your second line is the point.  We can support our candidate, but we nare not required to support his positions.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-08 09:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Agreed with you on this one. Thus

But how many positions can our candidate not support, before our support for him/her begins to wain?

I don't think anyone here has any intention of voting for the senile GOP nominee, the question is whether we will demand OUR nominee live up to our principles.

by ObamaGurl08 2008-07-08 09:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Agreed with you on this one. Thus

Oaky, let's take this at face value.  If we (progressive/liberal Democrats) start bashing the Democratic nominee for overblown, media manufactored charges (with the possible exception of FISA) then we are, in fact, aiding the efforts to elect McCain.  We would be introducing doubt, and turing off undecided voters.

There has to be room for criticism, but right now We need to focus on the best course of action - putting a Democrat back in the White House.

Bottom line: I'm not going to damage our nominee because of his position on FISA or Free Trade or just about anything else during the GE.  But I will damn sure be critical of him during his presidency on those issues.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-08 09:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Agreed with you on this one. Thus

I see where you're coming from, and that was my inspiration for this diary.  Is getting Obama into office no matter what, more important than getting him into the oval office while standing up for our core principles. And more to the point, what is, or is there a tipping point where we all say enough, even if it hurts him in the fall.

It's a tough question, I'm glad you at least gave me a serious answer.

by ObamaGurl08 2008-07-08 09:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Agreed with you on this one. Thus

Of course it is.  What part of a either-or situation do you not understand?  It is either Obama... or McSame.  PERIOD.

After the fact then if you have an issue about anything that matters to you or people you care about... say something.  Do something.  Make your voice heard.

Until then, the ONLY thing that Obama can do is try to appeal to more then 1/2 of the voters.  The only thing you can do is make sure that happens.

This entire "tipping-point" argument has no place here.  You can go ask redstate people what they think our tipping point will be.  I'm sure they will give you all kinds of interesting answers.

But I can tell you what it actually is.  There is none.  

Not this time.  

by herenow 2008-07-08 10:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Agreed with you on this one. Thus

No sorry, that's not how it works. Do you truly believe that Obama will shift back once in office, LOL. Seriously, if we can't hold him accountable before the election, there is zero chance of doing so once he takes office.

Once he's in office, the argument will be, "Don't criticize Obama because it weakens his power, and we need such and such bill/policy passed". The don't criticized our guy chant will never end if you allow it to take hold.

The time to voice our opinions is now, not just later.

by ObamaGurl08 2008-07-08 10:32AM | 0 recs
Your right about 1 thing, the time is now.

I'm sorry, but this is completely and absolutely wrong.

At all times you have numbers to call, groups to donate to, and ways to get your views heard....

... if you have a government there that has any interest in them at all.  You have to get that government in, those people in, and a President in that will represent you first.

This is an election.  Obama can do nothing, we can do nothing, until he wins.  Period.

There is no tipping point.  It is either we get behind and support who we have and try to shape their decisions in the future, or we loose.  

This faux-outrage you claim, and this argument that you have that Obama won't "shift" in the future is complete bullshit.  The only people that don't shift are those that have no interest in your interests, and hide behind justifications such as wars and flags to stifle dissent.

You want to win this election?  Then the time is now to support your candidate.  Cause when this is over, and if we loose, your faux-outrage won't make a lick of difference.

by herenow 2008-07-08 10:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Agreed with you on this one. Thus

On the majority of this I agree, but I'd like to point out that expressing your dissatisfaction on one issue (like FISA) is not necessarily working for McCain so long as it is based upon contructive criticism and an understanding that after the election (and even during the convention plank votes) pressure will be applied to try to correct a stance on a bill that has strayed away from the path we'd all like to see.

This, however, shouldn't undermine the overall support for the candidate since there are many more, and (dare I say) more important issues at stake than just FISA.  What does it matter if a bad FISA bill passes or not if we get unemployment above 50%?  How important will FISA be if we go into 2 or 3 more wars draining all of our resources and forcing a reinsitution of the draft?  How important will it be that there will be no proper review of said FISA bill because we allowed the Suprime Court to be stacked with conservative justices that have no interest in justice or the constitution?

These are just a few of a plethora of issues in which it would be absolutely rediculous to miss the opportunity this election brings over one position, which (I'd like to add), Obama opposes the immunity portion of and would probably be redressed by congress once he got into office and they could pass it with a simple majority.

It's really beyond beleif that any progressive would be unable to see the forest for this tree.

by Why Not 2008-07-08 09:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Agreed with you on this one. Thus

Well put.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-08 10:15AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

I have been getting excoriated at Kos for questioning Obamas moves.  I will support him till the election.  I guess I have no choice.  He is far from an ideal candidate.  It is disheartening to see the base willing to give up so much.  I am not sure why Obama was so against DLC membership, he is almost as perfect a DLC candidate as Hillary.  No good can come from this push to the center.  I know he was always there, but he sold himself in the primaries as not a member of the center.  When he goes to the center the lines between rep and dem get  blurred.  It is much easier for people to cofuse the issues and the candidates.  Dems can win on the left.  Why are so many afraid to push to the left?

by bfuentes 2008-07-08 08:59AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

Jeez, and here i am judging him by his voting record, not 1 or 2 policy disagreements? Who knew

by Dog Chains 2008-07-08 09:07AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

His voting record is very centrist.

by bfuentes 2008-07-08 10:21AM | 0 recs
There's a difference

You can be centrist and practically-oriented without being DLC.

The DLC was a desperate attempt to save the party from Reagan; it's more about capitulation to the Right's framing of debates than centrism.

Obama isn't letting the Right frame our national debate, he's taking these issues off the table by not being a leftist idealogue.  If we wanted that guy, we would've nominated Kucinich.

Just for fairness, though, I love Kucinich and his ridiculously beautiful wife.  They'd be terrible in the White House, though.

by Dracomicron 2008-07-08 09:34AM | 0 recs
Re: There's a difference

There are many places on the spectrum between Obama and Kucinich.  To suggest that they are the only choices is disingenuous at best.  

by bfuentes 2008-07-08 10:26AM | 0 recs

I concede that easily.  Why is it important to question my purposed hyperbole?

by Dracomicron 2008-07-08 10:37AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

I catch him hugging Bush :)

Next these never ending diaries about the GE shift are getting a tad boring. All this concern on how he's screwing and or ignoring  his base by these shifts. My attitude, his base gets really screwed and ignored if he doesn't get elected.

by jsfox 2008-07-08 09:03AM | 0 recs
a tad boring

The reason they're boring is because they're just bad pulp fiction trying to become urban legend.

Obama has been consistent all along.

by Beren 2008-07-08 09:17AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

So long as Obama remains better than McCain, that is both necessary and sufficient for my support.

If and when he makes it in, though, that's when we need to pressure him to support our priorities.

by Angry White Democrat 2008-07-08 09:06AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

Everyone needs to understand the difference between campaigning and governing.  Right now, we just need to get Obama in office because we know he's better than McCain.  Once he's in office, then we fight for our policies.

by CA Pol Junkie 2008-07-08 09:11AM | 0 recs

We can fight it out once we have something to fight over.

by Angry White Democrat 2008-07-08 09:14AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?
The Following Users Have Recommended This Diary:
Jacob Freeze
by venician 2008-07-08 09:08AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

Looks like two well known PUMAs, one republican, and a likely shame Rec.  That about says it all, doesn't it?

by fogiv 2008-07-08 09:15AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

No surprise that the team is standing by their Gurl.

by January 20 2008-07-08 09:41AM | 0 recs
Says it all doesn't it.

by herenow 2008-07-08 09:18AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

Rather reeks of "All right, gang, you know what to do!", doesn't it?

I wonder which of our old friends picked this new identity.

You can find more convincing disguises every October, in a plastic bag at Walgreen's for $12.99

by BlueinColorado 2008-07-08 09:24AM | 0 recs
Just another McTroll diary


by Beren 2008-07-08 09:10AM | 0 recs
Luckily for BHO...
the bar is set pretty darn low. So its all good until he seems a worse choice than W.
Thanks for asking!
by Ida B 2008-07-08 09:12AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

This is on the rec list?  

MyDD has strapped on it's helmet and nuzzled up behind Arthur Fonzarelli.  Revving the motorcycle.  VROOOM!  VROOOM!

by fogiv 2008-07-08 09:21AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

I second this!

and add:

WTF!? So much for the streak of awesome diaries on the rec list.

[no offense to diarist-]

by alyssa chaos 2008-07-08 09:35AM | 0 recs
But more importantly...

Liberal Bloggers Accuse Obama of Trying to Win Election


by Ida B 2008-07-08 09:24AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

I don't really have a tipping point in regards to my vote.  However I get really tired of the freak outs whenever a Democrat mentions they might not be happy with Obama.  We are allowed to disagree.  One of the reasons we have had our ass handed to us by the Republicans is because some Democrats act like mealy-mouthed pissants instead of adopting some thicker skin and getting ready to rumble.  The Republicans are not light weights they are hardcore unethical pricks.  We have to stand our ground or we will continue to get our asses kicked.

by JustJennifer 2008-07-08 09:39AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

This makes no sense whatsoever.  It is precicely because Democrats can't get it together and stand by their candidate that they do not win.  

Believe me, republican's are not sitting around this afternoon wondering when the "tipping" point will be.  They vote in lock step.  

No matter what.

If you want to win, then you have to vote against them.  Every time.  Not wonder when the fucking tipping point is when you won't.

I'll tell you when it is.  My tipping point is when Obama (or any dem (you reading this Joe?)) becomes a Republican.  There is no other choice.  

by herenow 2008-07-08 10:24AM | 0 recs
Uprated to counter

roxyfoxy/aliveandkickin's stupidity.

by JJE 2008-07-08 11:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Uprated to counter

Ya, nice.  Even if they are not one in the same, they are either 2 loosers, or one serious one.

by herenow 2008-07-08 12:34PM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

Obamagurl08, what drew you to support Obama over Clinton in the first place?  Don't mean that as a hostile question.  So many of these threads get started by people who only started commenting after the primary race ended, though, it's only fair to wonder how many are sock puppets (and, well, you don't seem to like him that much).

by IncognitoErgoSum 2008-07-08 10:06AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

His approach to politics is what drew me to him. His attitude of holding our leaders accountable, and bringing real change to our government was music to my ears.

I want to believe that his words during the primary were sincere, which is why I'm less than pleased by his actions.

by ObamaGurl08 2008-07-08 10:13AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

But a lot of his pitch about "new politics" was grounded in an argument that personal attacks, wedge issues, etc., don't work, and to get anything done Dems have to reach out to rank-and-file voters are indies and, yes, even Republicans.  

Just trying to understand where you're coming from.  He didn't present himself as a traditional progressive (and for many who have this politics he was the second choice after Edwards).

Did you start off supporting Obama?  Or did you switch sometime during the primary season?  

by IncognitoErgoSum 2008-07-08 10:26AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

I started supporting Obama early last year. And his "new politics" message was all encompassing, hence the blank check approach. It's one thing to reach out to Indies and Repubs, it's another to pander to them, something he preached against.

by ObamaGurl08 2008-07-08 10:40AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

I don't think he has pandered, and will suggest his comments about Cuba offer a good example of how this flip-flop meme is so wrong-headed.  When Obama ran for the Senate he suggested that US foreign policy towards Cuba has failed and he supports some form of normalization (this was a short answer to a short question).

What has been his position throughout the primaries? (and it hasn't changed).  If elected president he'd end restrictions on travel and remittances (no conditions).  He'd then negotiate personally with Raul Castro (nothing needs to happen for this to occur).  And then  he'd tie normalization in other areas (eg. the embargo) to the Cuban government's willingness to do things like free political prisoners, end controls on the press, hold free elections, etc.

Who is he pandering to?  Right-wing Cuban-Americans?  They don't believe US policy towards Cuba should be changed at all.  Left-wing Castro supporters?  They think the embargo against Cuba should be lifted.  Is Obama's suggested policy incoherent?  To the contrary, it's bold--he's proposing that the US should do with Raul Castro what LBJ wanted to do with Fidel.

So who is pushing the flip-flop meme?  Republicans (who want to make the case that there are only two stances--stasis or immediate normalization) and, during the primaries, Democrats who supported Clinton (since she tried to gain some milage from the "Obama will negotiate with dictators" line).

But is there any real flip-flopping going on?  No.  And fortunately, I think most voters are smart enough to see this (eg. on this issue younger Cuban-American voters in Florida don't have the same opinions as the old warhorses).  

Granted, this is an anonymous forum, but you come off as somebody who supported Clinton (you see "pandering" where others see "nuance", not suggesting there's anything wrong with someone's having supported Clinton, but this was one of the basic dividing lines during the primaries).

Anyway.  If I'm wrong, I apologize.  But he's the same guy he was during the primaries.  For what it's worth, on Daily Kos (the flagship website for progressives) people routinely put up polls asking this question--are you now disappointed in Obama--and consistently those who say "yes" seem to account for approx. 5% of respondents.

Obama isn't the first politician, of course, to present this case that he can pursue some "third way" (Clinton did the same thing in '92, but this is a very old tactic).  Thing is, some politicians deliver (eg. Willy Brandt).

Just have difficulty seeing how anyone who said he'd negotiate with Raul Castro can be seen as practicing the "usual" politics (and that's true down the line, no national politician who supports the federalization of health care should be called a centerist, no one who supports raising taxes on high earners to the extent Obama does should be called a phony progressive, etc.).

by IncognitoErgoSum 2008-07-08 11:21AM | 0 recs
My tipping point came and went

...a long time ago...with the South Carolina Homophobic Road Show.

I'm glad to see others have realized that he panders to the right, throwing the core democrats, well, you know where.

but it's nothing new to me, so I am not in on this latest Obama outrage.  Same stuff, different day, as far as I'm concerned.  

It's why I am now an independant, and not a Democrat, for the first time in my 46 years.

by SoCalVet 2008-07-08 10:40AM | 0 recs
Good lord

The only people in the country who know who Donnie McClurkin is are Donnie McClurkin's parents and blog-readers. And the only reason the latter know it is because of bitter, obsessive Clintonites who need some factoid to hang their hatred on.

by BlueinColorado 2008-07-08 10:49AM | 0 recs
I bet you were outraged

when Bill C. signed the DOMA and hung out with Billy Graham amirite?

by JJE 2008-07-08 11:38AM | 0 recs

We get stuck with Obama because people like YOU really believed his stuff on the stump 6 months ago.

I said then, I'll say it now.  He is a pol ... he'll run over an old lady to collect a vote.  He isn't, and never was, "different."

The only question becomes do we risk 4 years of McCain?    

My fearless prediction is that based on the war and the economy, no matter who wins, they are a 1 termer.

by dpANDREWS 2008-07-08 10:56AM | 0 recs
Re: What is your Tipping Point with Obama?

Ok, so to summarize:

You don't know where Obama stands on issues, but you've been a strong supporter for a long time.  You think any ticket without Hillary on it is doomed, and have not had anything positive to say about Obama other than backhanded compliments.

"Can ANYONE tell me what change Obama will bring us."

"I'm not confident of unity if Hillary doesn't get the VP spot."

"For me, going back on his word is not a minor issue. Sorry, but I have put my heart and soul into promoting Obama and I have been preaching his pledge to people for over a year."

"I'm cool with it too, but he promised so much more. Many of us having been working like mad to get him nominated, he needs to deliver for us."

"The problem I'm having is that I don't really see much change with Obama right now. That's why I came here, I thought people would give me a million ways he'll change things."

"Truthfully, I never really understood what change Obama was bringing outside of a new attitude. I've been following for a few years now, but his message has always been a little open ended."

So I think I finally get it now.  You're a character actor, and right now you're playing the young and naive Obama supporter who has become disillusioned with the messages of "hope" and "change".  You never took the time to find out his positions on anything, yet in your blind enthusiasm you preached about how awesome he is to others.  I'm guessing that in a week or so, we'll all see the real epiphany occur in diary-form in which you realize that we should have nominated Hillary, and that it's not too late to change the supers minds.  This cry will be all the more legitimate because come on, let's face it, it's coming from someone who used to support Obama and even uses Obama's name in their moniker.  It's not too late, gang!

by thatpurplestuff 2008-07-08 11:05AM | 0 recs


Advertise Blogads