Florida Debacle

by moevaughn, Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 10:50:53 AM EDT

This email was forwarded to me from a Florida Dem County Chair, and I thought it would be of interest, so am passing it along. I'll add a copy of the referred-to attachment as well.

Dear Democrat:

     If you haven't already received this it will make you real mad.  Open up the attachment and then open the link to Democratic Rep Ron Gelber's exchange.  The importance of this it gives us a true picture of the attitude of the Republicans in Tallahassee.  You will hear the Republicans mock and laugh at Rep Gilber as he pleads with them not to move the Presidential Primary to January 29.  Remember it was a Republican Legislature and the Republican Governor that made this happen.  Please forward this to your friends; we need to get the word out.  

Chair, Hernando County Democratic Executive Committee
Spring Hill, FL  34611

NEWS FROM THE FLORIDA DEMOCRATIC PARTY

For Immediate Release: March 7, 2008

re:  Crist's Concern for Dem Voters

TALLAHASSEE - While Florida's governor plays the role of nonpartisan leader on television, he's a true partisan Republican in real life. During his week-long media tour to "help" Democrats, Crist seems to have conveniently forgotten that he vowed to veto legislation proposed by Democrats to move the primary to February 5th.

Last year, Florida Democrats asked the Republican-controlled Legislature to set the primary on February 5th. The proposal elicited laughter and mocking from Republicans on the floor of the Florida House. Click here for the audio:
 http://www.dangelber.com/audio/RepGelber exchangewithRepRivera3May2007.wma

The Governor was no more helpful. "Crist said Tuesday that he would veto any bill attempting to change Florida's presidential primary to a later date... "It doesn't have a chance," said Crist, a Republican. "I think Florida's doing the right thing." [Associated Press, 9/4/07]

Tags: 2008, Election, Florida, Primary (all tags)

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35 Comments

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Amendment to push up to Jan. 29 was DEMOCRATIC

IT was a Democrat who introduced the amendment, even though they knew the stance of the DNC.

It passed with opposition from a single Democratic legislator.

After the DNC ruled NO DELEGATES, they went back and the GOP said, "too late"

The FDP got exactly what it bargained for, and now they're just a bunch of whiners.

by Walt Starr 2008-03-09 10:58AM | 0 recs
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Re: Amendment to push up to Jan. 29 was DEMOCRATIC

Walt, let me ask you a question. Do you want to win the election or just the nomination?

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-09 11:04AM | 0 recs
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Re: Amendment to push up to Jan. 29 was DEMOCRATIC

I want to win the election. It's the FDP that wants to lose it.

Screw 'em. IT's their fault. the Democratic nominee can win without FL.

by Walt Starr 2008-03-09 11:07AM | 0 recs
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Re: Amendment to push to Jan. 29

Obviously you totally missed the fact that the Dem Legislators pushed hard to make the date later and the Repubs refused and the Gov said he'd veto Dem legislation for an earlier date.

You also might not know that the legislation included the implementation of a paper trail, something the Dems have been fighting for since 2000.  Sneaky politics of the Repubs in charge to include the paper trail, because there's no way Dems would fail to vote for paper trail ballots.  

Maybe you would not like to have a paper trail in Florida, but all the Elecion Integrity people sure do.  

The fact is:  the Florida State Dems fought hard to make the primary a later date; the Republicans shot it down.

The fact is:  the 1.7 million Dem voters in Florida who turned out in all-time-record breaking numbers had nothing to do with the date change.

The fact is:  the DNC threw 1.7 million of its own babies out with the bathwater.

I know guys like you just love to blame the victims; and when the victims stand up and speak out about the injustice, you blame them again by saying they are playing a "victim card".   Slap!  Slap!  Slap!  

Knock it off already.

by moevaughn 2008-03-09 11:24AM | 0 recs
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Re: Amendment to push to Jan. 29

I didn't miss a damned thing. The petulant children demanded the right tio leapfrog against the rules. The petulant children introduced the amendment to election reform legislation that would lepafrog against the rules. The petulant children voted in favor of the amendment they introduced to leapfrog against the rules.

Then, when the petulant children were told, "we told you the consequences and now we are enforcing the rules", they paniced and went back to move the date back, begging the GOP to let them go back on what they themselves had done to themselves.

To hell with the petulant children.

by Walt Starr 2008-03-09 11:37AM | 0 recs
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Re: to hell with the voters

 Are you saying to hell with the 1.7 Democratic voters who had nothing to do with the State Legislature's date change?

Well,I'm glad your vote counted!  (assuming it did)

and I also think you are having a hard time accepting the fact that the Dem Reps in Florida DID try to legislate a later date, but the Repub-ruled Legislature shot it down.  There's only so much Dems can do against Repub-controlled legislature and a Repub. Gov.

by moevaughn 2008-03-09 11:51AM | 0 recs
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Re: Florida Debacle

Tell me how.  

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-09 11:10AM | 0 recs
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Re: Florida Debacle

ooops, this was supposed to be a reply to Walt.

Please tell me how the Democrats win in the general without Florida.

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-09 11:12AM | 0 recs
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Re: Florida Debacle

SUSA GE Polls that came out a while ago - I'm sure you had a look at them, right?

by marcotom 2008-03-09 11:17AM | 0 recs
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Re: Florida Debacle

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3 /6/145023/7178/225/470640

Here you go. Without Florida, Obama currently leads McCain in states with 280 electoral votes. With Florida, Clinton currently leads McCain in states with 276 electoral votes.

Note also that he's outperforming her in 33 states, while she's outperforming him in 15.

by vermontprog 2008-03-09 11:22AM | 0 recs
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Re: red states

This diary is more about the DNC's disenfranchisement of its own Democratic voters.  It's about election integrity, and the DNC's failure to protect the voting rights of all Democratic voters.

But since you brought it up, how many of those 33 states are in fact red states which, no matter which Dem wins the caucus, in the general election will go Republican?  What do the polls say about McCain v. Obama in those red states?

by moevaughn 2008-03-09 11:33AM | 0 recs
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Re: red states

Teh DNC didn't disenfranchise anybody.

The Michigan Democratic PArty disenfranchised their voters and the Florida Democratic PArty disenfranchised their voters.

Take it up with teh state parties. They knew what they were doing. They knew the consequences. Now they are whining about the consequences of their own actions. It's up to them to fix it and pay for the fix. They brought it on themselves.

by Walt Starr 2008-03-09 11:39AM | 0 recs
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Re: red states

The Florida dem party did no such thing.

The republican legislature changed the date, tacked it onto a bill no one could vote against and shot down any and every amendment to said bill to change the primary date.

In addition to that the DNC doubled the punishment their own rules called for.

You either don't care about the facts or you are willfully ignorant of them.

Read this part again:

Last year, Florida Democrats asked the Republican-controlled Legislature to set the primary on February 5th. The proposal elicited laughter and mocking from Republicans on the floor of the Florida House. Click here for the audio:
 http://www.dangelber.com/audio/RepGelber exchangewithRepRivera3May2007.wma

The Governor was no more helpful. "Crist said Tuesday that he would veto any bill attempting to change Florida's presidential primary to a later date... "It doesn't have a chance," said Crist, a Republican. "I think Florida's doing the right thing." [Associated Press, 9/4/07]

by americanincanada 2008-03-09 11:57AM | 0 recs
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Re: red states

Thank you americanincanada for jumping in on this.  Some of these commentators are having a really hard time with the FACTS!

by moevaughn 2008-03-09 12:13PM | 0 recs
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Re:

well, we'll see how Sen. Obama does in the general election without the now-alienated voters in Florida.

p.s. you remind me of the Bush people who have that strategy of repeating the same lie over and over and over, thinking that will make it true.

Your lie is the Florida Dem Party disenfranchised the voters.  Say it all you want, but it's not what the actual facts say.  The DNC disenfranchised the voters in Florida as punishment for what the Repub-ruled Legislature did.  Punishing the voters is not unlike Bush punishing Iraq for 9/11 even though Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

by moevaughn 2008-03-09 11:58AM | 0 recs
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Re: Florida Debacle

That's a pretty interesting map. Obama loses FL, PA and NJ and still wins the election. Talk about fantasyland...

Oh, and Hillary loses OR and WA, not.

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-09 11:42AM | 0 recs
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Re: Florida Debacle

SureveyUSA has by far been the most accurate polling operation this entire election season. You cannot deny their uncanny accuracy.

They called Bill Foster over Jim Oberweis dead on.

by Walt Starr 2008-03-09 11:51AM | 0 recs
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Re: Florida Debacle

Well, in this case the results make no sense at all. Clinton is not going to lose in Oregon and Washington, and Obama is not going to win the election without Florida and New Jersey.

Also, note that you also plan to throw Michigan under the bus, which would result in a 34 electoral college shift. This poll has Obama beating McCain there by only 1% so if you succeed in stiffing them too you lose Michigan and without Michigan Obama loses to McCain 275 to 263.

Dude, we can not win without Florida and Michigan. Wake Up.

The fact that the Obama campaign is trying to disenfranchise FL and MI so they can skip off with the nomination is not just anti-democratic, it is just plain dumb, and it will result in the Democrats losing the presidency.

The fact that his campaign is attempting this maneuver is further proof of their amaterism and how not ready they are to fight a national campaign to victory against the Republicans. They are playing right into the Republican's hands.

I'll say it again. Winning the nomination in a way that insures defeat in the fall is just plain stupid.

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-09 12:25PM | 0 recs
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Re: Florida Debacle

Dude, it's up to the Florida and Michigan Democratic Parties to fix the mess they created. Not the DNC. Not Clinton. Not Obama.

So don't whine to me.

by Walt Starr 2008-03-09 12:34PM | 0 recs
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Re: Florida Debacle

Walt, I'm not whining to you. I'm telling you that your candidate Obama, is trying to stop these delegations from participating in the nomination process. As a result, if he gets the nomination, he will lose. John McCain will become president and he will appoint three more "conservative" Supreme Court Justices.

You talk about Obama's vaunted leadership ability. Faced with this probable scenario, how can it not be his responsibility to do this right? He is running for President of the United States and right now he is pursuing a strategy that will destroy our chances to win in the fall if he gets the nomination this way. How is this not his responsibility?

Talking with you is difficult, because you just come back with the same old talking points, but I'd like to ask you to try and answer my questions here, without just using the simplistic argument that they broke it, they have to fix it. That has a nice ring to it, but if pursuing that strategy means we lose, then it is a flawed arguement. So, it is a flawed arguemnent.

Why is it not Obama's responsibility to make sure the Democrat's electoral chances are not destroyed by disenfranchising FL and MI?

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-09 12:48PM | 0 recs
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I blame the DNC

The states do as they please-- it's their prerogative to hold primaries and caucuses for both parties.

The DNC in Washington should have had alternative plans to accommodate competing interests of the early primary and caucus states.

Instead, they crossed their fingers and hoped that a nominee will emerge in due time so that MI and FL votes would not count in the end.

Dean and Brazile and the rest of the DNC in Washington must be held accountable.  Their ineptness is costing our party bigtime.

by Sieglinde 2008-03-09 12:18PM | 0 recs
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Re: I blame the DNC

Youre blaming the wrong people.

What you are doing is like blaming the sheriff for evicting you over foreclosure when it was the bank that foreclosed.

So take it up with Ickes and McCauliffe. They were the ones that voted to strip the delegates.

And better yet, put the blame where it squarely belongs, the FDP and MDP who were petulant children and brought the mess on themselves!

by Walt Starr 2008-03-09 12:36PM | 0 recs
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Re: I blame the DNC

In the first place, who elected Iowa and New Hampshire the favored children of our great family?

I say, why not Florida? why not Michigan?

The whole process is flawed at the core.  Primaries and caucuses are state prerogatives.  So why punish one state and favor others?  Why South Carolina?  Why Nevada?

The DNC is to blame.  McCauliffe and Ickes too, if they had anything to do with the current mess.

by Sieglinde 2008-03-09 12:42PM | 0 recs
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Re: I blame the DNC

In the first place, who elected Iowa and New Hampshire the favored children of our great family?

The entire DNC approved the plan in 2006, including affirmative votes from the Michigan and Florida delegates. The time to alter it was 2006, not halfway through the 2008 primary season.

I say, why not Florida? why not Michigan?

Because the entire DNC approved the plan in 2006, including affirmative votes from the Michigan and Florida delegates. The time to alter it was 2006, not halfway through the 2008 primary season.

The whole process is flawed at the core.  Primaries and caucuses are state prerogatives.  So why punish one state and favor others?  Why South Carolina?  Why Nevada?

Because the entire DNC approved the plan in 2006, including affirmative votes from the Michigan and Florida delegates. The time to alter it was 2006, not halfway through the 2008 primary season.

The DNC is to blame.  McCauliffe and Ickes too, if they had anything to do with the current mess.

No, the Florida and Michigan Democratic PArties are to blame. They had the opportunity to alter the course of the primaries in 2006. They sided with the entire delegation then. Later, they unilaterally determined they didn't have to follow the rules they themselves agreed to.

Put the blame where it belongs, on the Florida and Michigan Democratic PArties.

by Walt Starr 2008-03-09 12:48PM | 0 recs
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Re: I blame the DNC

Blame whoever you want. It does not matter. All that matters is winning in the fall against John McCain.

Whoever is our nominee has a responsibility to win the presidency, so the nominee has a responsibility to win the nomination in a manner that preserves their chance to beat John McCain.

It does not matter who's responsibility the mess is. Both candidates for the nomination have the responsibility to clean it up. Don't you see that?

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-09 01:02PM | 0 recs
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Re: I blame the DNC

So the DNC is completely blameless, in your analysis?

They had nothing to do with crafting the plan in 2006?  Why didn't they bother to look at possible implications of their perverted system of accreditation?

In my opinion, the Republicans' solution to MI and FL, which was to cut their delegation in half, at least gave a sizeable penalty, but without totally disenfranchising the two states.

by Sieglinde 2008-03-09 01:06PM | 0 recs
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Re: FL Primary

Do you know the states of IA, NH, and SC all broke DNC Rule 11A when they changed their date?  

Also, you want IA and NH to keep their first primary status.  So do I.  I'm actually from NH. The FL state legislature chose a date following IA, NH, SC, and NV so as not to encroach on their first status.

btw, I know it will likely upset you, but NH's own Sec. of State was ok with Florida changing its primary date.  From NH's Union Leader newspaper report:

Gardner OK with Florida Primary Jump  
Author:    BEVERLEY WANG The Associated Press
Publication: New Hampshire Union Leader,(Manchester, NH), May 22, 2007
Page Number: A2

CONCORD -- Florida's primary is inching closer to New Hampshire.

Gov. Charlie Crist made it official yesterday by signing a bill that sets Florida's Presidential primary on Jan. 29, 2008, vaulting ahead of a dozen states holding primaries or caucuses on Tuesday, Feb. 5.

And what does Secretary of State Bill Gardner, guardian of New Hampshire's first-in-the-nation primary status think?    He's OK with it.

by moevaughn 2008-03-09 01:39PM | 0 recs
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Re: Florida Debacle

DNC 2008 is much worse than the Rep & supreme court in 2000. Citizens across the nation will remember forever how their brothers and sisters were disenfranchised by the Democrats in2008. The DNC rules have much less validity than the rep rules in 2000.

by maxstar 2008-03-09 12:27PM | 0 recs
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Re: Florida Debacle

Excellent point. I want to highlight your comment here. The damage from disenfranchising FL and MI will be much greater than simply losing those critical electoral college votes.

Voters all over the nation will be turned off to the anti-democratic Democrats. The fact that Obama if successful was clearly part of the effort to stiff two huge states will drive voters in other states away from him too. New kind of politics, right! He will be subjected to attacks from the right that he got the nomination because he stiffed 2 million primary voters.

Disenfranchising these states is the worst thing our Party can do. Obama and his brilliant strategians are playing right into the Republican's hands, and if something isn't done to get FL and MI revoted it will cost us the presidency.

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-09 12:39PM | 0 recs
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Re: Florida Debacle

 Exactly.  And along with the Obama Campaign, the DNC is playing right into the Republicans hands.

by moevaughn 2008-03-09 01:18PM | 0 recs
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Re: Florida Debacle

Exactly.

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-09 01:26PM | 0 recs
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Re: Florida Debacle


Uh-huh.

Rules were made. Two states broke them.  Unless you want primaries a year and a half before the general, something has to be done.

by Bob Beard 2008-03-09 01:27PM | 0 recs
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Re: Florida Debacle

The Florida State party did nothing wrong here. How many times do you have to be reminded?

The Florida dem party did no such thing.

The republican legislature changed the date, tacked it onto a bill no one could vote against and shot down any and every amendment to said bill to change the primary date.

In addition to that the DNC doubled the punishment their own rules called for.

You either don't care about the facts or you are willfully ignorant of them.

Read this part again:

Last year, Florida Democrats asked the Republican-controlled Legislature to set the primary on February 5th. The proposal elicited laughter and mocking from Republicans on the floor of the Florida House. Click here for the audio:
 http://www.dangelber.com/audio/RepGelber exchangewithRepRivera3May2007.wma

The Governor was no more helpful. "Crist said Tuesday that he would veto any bill attempting to change Florida's presidential primary to a later date... "It doesn't have a chance," said Crist, a Republican. "I think Florida's doing the right thing." [Associated Press, 9/4/07]

by americanincanada 2008-03-09 01:33PM | 0 recs
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Re: rules

Do you know the states of IA, NH, and SC all broke DNC Rule 11A when they changed their date?  

btw, New Hampshire's own Sec. of State was ok with Florida changing its primary date.  From NH's Union Leader newspaper report:

Gardner OK with Florida Primary Jump  
Author:    BEVERLEY WANG The Associated Press
Publication: New Hampshire Union Leader,(Manchester, NH), May 22, 2007
Page Number: A2

CONCORD -- Florida's primary is inching closer to New Hampshire.

Gov. Charlie Crist made it official yesterday by signing a bill that sets Florida's Presidential primary on Jan. 29, 2008, vaulting ahead of a dozen states holding primaries or caucuses on Tuesday, Feb. 5.

And what does Secretary of State Bill Gardner, guardian of New Hampshire's first-in-the-nation primary status think?    He's OK with it.

by moevaughn 2008-03-09 01:42PM | 0 recs
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Re: rules

p.s.
I should also add NH's Sec of State was OK with Florida's date change, because Florida chose a date following IA, NH, SC, and NV, so those states could keep their first primaries status.
by moevaughn 2008-03-09 01:45PM | 0 recs

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