Why I support warrantless electronic surveillance (long)

I have voted for the Democratic Party every election since 1972. I have also been a full-time organizer for the United Farm Workers union and the Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador. I have a long history as a progressive activist.

Yet I disagree with virtually the entire netroots in the issue of FISA and telecom immunity. Let me state my position and please tell me why  you disagree.

The world has always had small numbers of people who would choose to do violent harm in society, whether for criminal reasons, political reasons, religious reasons, or just crazy discontent.  For most of human history, the harm that could be done by a small number of individuals was minimal.

Over the last few centuries, this has started to change, and that change has accelerated in recent decades.   The amount of devastation that could be inflicted by a small group of people is now immense, due to several factors:
(1) Increased population density, with huge numbers of people living in crowded cities around the world
(2) Increased communication capacity, with small numbers of violent people better able to locate one another and conspire together
(3) Increased knowledge available, with small number of violent people better able to use online sources to figure out how to inflect harm
(4) And, especially, increased weapons capacity, with highly portable biological, chemical, and/or nuclear weapons now potentially accessible to small numbers of people with violent intent

For these reasons, I think we have to step up our vigilance in protecting society from those that would do harm to us.  At the current time, the most likely group to launch an attack with weapons of mass destruction (WMD) is probably Al Qaeda, or indpendent groups with similar ideology as Al Qaeda.  However, such an attack could also be launched by domestic terrorists (e.g., Oklahoma City) or by a religious cult (e.g., the group that launched the sarin attack on subways in Japan a few years ago).  In the future, other groups might pose similar dangers.

How then can we protect ourselves from such groups?  Well, there are several ways, one of which is trying to keep people around the world as contented, well off, and educated as possible, so that fewer people have the kind of grievances that would result in such attacks.  But in a world of 5 billion plus people, there is always the danger that groups will emerge that will seek to wreak havoc.

I believe that the use by terrorists or cults or criminals of a weapon of mass destruction is a distinct possibility, and such an attack would absolutely devastate our country and world.  Think of the chaos that followed Sept. 11, when 3,000 people were killed.  Imagine the economic, and social upheaval worldwide if an attack with WMD killed hundreds of thousands or millions of people, and contaminated one or more U.S. cities.

So I think we need to do anything in our power to prevent such things from happening.  And one of the ways--certainly not the only way, and not necessarily the best way, but one small way together with many other ways--is through improved surveillance.

Sweden recently adopted legislation that will allow warrantless surveillance of all telephone and Internet communication from foreign countries into Sweden.  Software will be used to look for key terms, etc., to try to identify potential threats that deserve greater attention.  I think such surveillance is an excellent idea and should in fact be extended.  I would be in favor of using such widescale surveillance not only for international communications, but also for domestic communications.

Yes, I will agree that such surveillance is far from perfect.  Terrorists or criminals can go "under the radar" by using codes, etc.  But even codes can sometimes be cracked.  And forcing terrorists to use codes already disrupts their communications a bit and makes them work harder to achieve their ends.  (I have heard that Al Qaeda makes much less use of cell phones these days due to the possibilities of surveillance, which must make their work much more difficult.)

What about the 4th amendment, which prohibits unreasonable searches of peoples papers and effects?  I would argue that such surveillance is reasonable in today's society, not unreasonable. (One could also argue that the use of electronic telephone lines or online communications involves use of a public utility and thus need not be protected.)

What about our basic moral right to privacy?  Well, we give up that right all the time in the interest of security.  I don't hear the left complaining about the use of metal detectors on airplanes, which  arguable represent  a more disruptive and intrusive invasion of individual privacy)  If we are willing to have our luggage and person searched in order to fly (in the interest of security), we should be willing to have our communications monitored in order to use public communications networks (similarly in the interest of security)

Every day I look at my three young children, and I want them to grow up safe and sound.  I am not worried at all about having my phone calls or Internet messages automatically monitored, together with everybody else's.  But I am interested in keeping my children safe from violent attack.  I realize that there are many other terrible that can happen to them and that the chances of a major terrorist attack are still pretty small.  But the chances are growing, and I would like to keep them small.  And I see mass electronic surveillance as one way of contributing to that end, with very little downside.

OK, please have at it.  What do you think is wrong with my thinking?

Tags: FISA, telecom immunity (all tags)

Comments

64 Comments

Re: Why I support

Fair points.

Please understand that we can craft a regime of surveillance that allows and requires meaningful oversight by the other two branches.  If that is present, then I can live with it.

The problem is the "warrantless" bit.  It need not work that way.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-06-21 02:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support

If we are going to monitor ALL communications, using software to detect key words, etc., then what is the point of a warrant?  How would that work?

by markjay 2008-06-21 02:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support

We shouldn't monitor everything.  Sure, it might be a great tool against terror, but it has huge potential for abuse.  

Do we want to use the same technology to find pot users?  

by libertyleft 2008-06-21 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support

OK, that's a decent argument--that it could be used to monitor lots of other types of technically illegal behavior that are not really a public security threat, or that it could intimidate people from frank discussion about that kind of behavior under fear of the surveillance.

No comment right now, I need to think about that, but I just wanted to thank you for putting forward a serious counter-argument.

by markjay 2008-06-21 02:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support

And the key to making sure it doesn't bleed over is oversight.  This oversight takes two parts: in the regulations that determine what is and isn't valid for surveillance (which should be determined by Congress), and in continually ensuring that those lines aren't crossed (which is a role for the federal judiciary).  Once the judiciary gets involved, you're in the neighborhood of warrants, even if they're not officially issuing them - which is something I can live with.

The problem as I see it is when there is no oversight - when the Executive Branch is empowered to do whatever they want with few or no checks from the other branches.

by mistersite 2008-06-21 02:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support

What if Congress passed a law allowing warrantless surveillance of telephone and online communications that could be used solely for the purpose of preventing violent crimes and terrorist acts.  Would that solve the matter of executive oversight, while also preventing the problem mentioned elsewhere in this thread of abusing this to hunt down pot smokers?

by markjay 2008-06-21 03:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support

It may still run afoul of the Fourth Amendment.  Congress can pass whatever laws it likes, but the judiciary decides if those laws violate the Constitution.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-06-21 03:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support

The problem isn't as much regulating - hell, there have been regulations on wiretaps since the original FISA, if not before - as it is monitoring and checking the executive.  I still think it would need continual monitoring by the judicial branch in some way - there is no other way to verify that the wiretapping is being used "solely for the purpose of preventing violent crimes and terrorist acts."

by mistersite 2008-06-21 03:36PM | 0 recs
Before.

The Wiretap Act. FISA when en acted creatred a 2nd channel for exemptions from the Wiretap Act.

by benmasel 2008-06-21 05:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support

That idea is unrealistic.  What if the people monitoring this system find out that some massive fraud scheme is going on, or a drug trafficking ring, or any number of nonviolent crimes?  You expect that they will ignore it because these crimes aren't in their purview?

This exact scenario occurred with the FBI's National Security Letters, authorized in the Patriot Act to combat terrorism alone.  That turned out perfectly fine, right?

by semiquaver 2008-06-21 04:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support

Well wouldn't the government need to show evidence in court, and have that evidence stand up? If the evidence was obtained with illegal wiretaps surely their case would be thrown out.

The issue is much bigger, obviously, but I just thought I'd add that random thought.

by animated 2008-06-21 02:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support

Sure, but what if they aren't using the wiretaps in court, but instead to blackmail or spy?  

Need to involve oversight to make sure that power isn't abused, which is why we use warrants.

by libertyleft 2008-06-21 02:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support

The response to 'produce your evidence in court' has under Bush been that they cannot do so and should not be required to do so because of 'national security' concerns of one sort or another. That's why the warrant is so necessary, and FISA is itself a sad compromise (10,000 applications and 2 denials).

by Christy1947 2008-06-22 10:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support

Who would you grant access to this data?
Who would create the watch words?
What measures would you put in place to prevent spying on political opponents?
Would law enforcement use the data in court?
If inadmissible, what would the justice system do to 'suspects' arrested based on this data?
Which crimes would warrant less surveillance data be allowed to prevent?

Doesn't this trajectory lead to a 'Minority Report' type scenario?

by Is This Snark 2008-06-21 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support

Man Reaper you're forcing me to give you my what 2nd or 3rd mojo in days.

To the diarist: I think the bane of most reasonable peoples contention ( or at lest mine is )is that FISA new law under Bush, disregarded the need to go to congress, did it in secret and the companies that followed that lead , did so knowing fully well that it was contentious at best. They also used this law w/ no oversight for abuse as it took place , proven w/ that the FBI a few months ago reported ( if u remember when the head of the FBI reported that an internal audit found unlawful requests for wire tapping)

I don't have a no wire tapping or to hell w/ security stance. My stance you must have an oversight body as a check and balance.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. And we need to make sure a President and his AG don't have absolute powers.


by aliveandkickin 2008-06-21 02:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support

Have to address a big misconception about FISA and Warrantless.  Most folks who will comment unfortunately dont know the history.

1. FISA existed before BUSH
2. WARRANTLESS taps existed before Bush.

but you could only go warrantless for 5 days before you had to jump through hoops and paperwork to rush to the courts ( note: even democarts were in agreement that it was a cluster phuck of paperwork)

what Bush did was effectively say- they do not have to go to courts if the president in " war time" issued the permission slip / gave authority to do so. AND!!! he also contended that he could do so---w/o having any oversight body to look into each such grant.

by aliveandkickin 2008-06-21 02:44PM | 0 recs
72 hours in original FISA.

5 days was an extension dating to the 1st WTC bombing.

by benmasel 2008-06-21 05:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support

We already have the Echelon program.  Any leads found from the program go through the NSA and if coming into the U.S., would go through the proper FISA system.  The way it is supposed to work.

by TxDem08 2008-06-21 05:36PM | 0 recs
NO!

It has been done fo9r decades without it being "warrantless"!

This is BULLSHIT!

FISA has always allowed them to start doing this BUT they then HAD to go and get a warrant within, I believe, 72 hours.

STOP giving up your rights! Geeeez! I am so sick of people wanting to bend over to "the masters", because THEY must know best, all for FALSE Security!

Once again, THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO WIRE TOP! ALWAYS! They just had to get a fucking WARRANT within 72 hours! This kept them somewhat HONEST!

by kevin22262 2008-06-21 02:17PM | 0 recs
geeez

I need to spell check my frickin rants!  

by kevin22262 2008-06-21 02:22PM | 0 recs
Here's why I oppose warantless wiretapping

I have two reasons.  One:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
Two:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

by semiquaver 2008-06-21 02:18PM | 0 recs
in other words

You want to override the constitution?  Fine, the framers have graciously provided a mechanism to do exactly that, please use it.  Oh, it requires too much support that you don't have?  There's a reason for that.

by semiquaver 2008-06-21 02:20PM | 0 recs
This diary

just sounds like the same thing gdub and friends spread but in a nicer way.

Sell us on giving up our right by using Fear and Concern!

Sorry... I am NOT buying it!

by kevin22262 2008-06-21 02:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support warrantless electronic surveilla
Hey markj
If your involvement has been this long...
certainly you have links to verify this...
Given your background....
what  sites could you share with us to help
our informational background....
by nogo postal 2008-06-21 02:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support warrantless electronic surveilla

Post your name and email address and I will be glad to email you with a link.

by markjay 2008-06-21 02:47PM | 0 recs
How I feel, anyway

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

-Ben Franklin

by libertyleft 2008-06-21 02:21PM | 0 recs
This is a great quote

but it is also falsely attributed to Ben Franklin and it also comes in many forms.

by kevin22262 2008-06-21 02:23PM | 0 recs
Re: This is a great quote

It's been paraphrased many times, but he certainly said it in some form.

by libertyleft 2008-06-21 02:28PM | 0 recs
First said by him in

Benjamin Franklin, "Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor", November 11, 1755; as cited in The Papers of Benjamin Franklin, vol. 6, p. 242, Leonard W. Labaree, ed. (1963)

It's also inscribed with attribution to Franklin on the Statue of Liberty (though the phrasing is slightly altered).

by semiquaver 2008-06-21 02:32PM | 0 recs
You are correct

http://www.ushistory.org/Franklin/quotab le/quote04.htm

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Fr anklin#Sourced

   * They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    * Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
          o The first variant was written by Franklin, with quotation marks but almost certainly his original thought, sometime shortly before February 17, 1755 as part of his notes for a proposition at the Pennsylvania Assembly. See Memoirs of the life and writings of Benjamin Franklin. [1]
          o The second variant was used as a motto on the title page of An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania. (1759) This book was published by Franklin; its author was Richard Jackson, but Franklin did claim responsibility for some small excerpts.[2]
          o A variant by Franklin: "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." (Poor Richard's Almanack, 1738)
          o This saying has appeared in many paraphrases:
                + "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
                  "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
                  "Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither."
                  "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security."
                  "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."
                  "People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both."
                  "If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both."
                  "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
                  "He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither."
                  "Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither."

by kevin22262 2008-06-21 02:35PM | 0 recs
Re: How I feel, anyway
Here Here!
And why are people so afraid of these "terrorist"?
You act as if they have an army or a navy or even an air force. For gods sake they have no way of launching a large scale attack on us.
by venician 2008-06-21 02:32PM | 0 recs
Re: How I feel, anyway

You don't need an army or a navy or an air force to deploy a suitcase nuclear bomb or launch an anthrax attack.

by markjay 2008-06-21 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: How I feel, anyway

Me thinks you watch to much tee vee! You do know that Fred Thompson isn't really the president?

by venician 2008-06-21 02:43PM | 0 recs
Re: How I feel, anyway

So do people who agree to be searched when going onto airplanes deserve neither Liberty nor Safety?

And if not, then why is giving up some privacy to fly on an airplane any different then giving up some privacy to use the Internet or the telephone?

by markjay 2008-06-21 02:37PM | 0 recs
Re: How I feel, anyway

Nice try. Strawmen are for cornfields.

by venician 2008-06-21 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: How I feel, anyway

I don't understand why that's a strawman?  I'm saying that we give up privacy all the time in the name of security and I see this is no worse than some of the other ways we do so.

by markjay 2008-06-21 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: How I feel, anyway

Sorry, I just realized you are a troll and will no longer be feeding you.

by venician 2008-06-21 02:44PM | 0 recs
Re: How I feel, anyway

What makes me a troll?  Because I have a position at odds with the conventional wisdom on the left?  What is trollish about this diary?  I didn't attack anybody, I just put out an argument.  Let's hear your disagreements, but what makes this trollish?

by markjay 2008-06-21 02:56PM | 0 recs
Sorry

I agree to a specific search when entering a plane.

I know they are not sniffing for traces of the joint I smoked before going on the plane.

Under your plan I have no such assurances of a limited search when I use the phone.

by Is This Snark 2008-06-21 02:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry

Fair enough.  What if legislation were passed indicating that such surveillance was to be used only for the purposes of preventing violent crimes or violent acts of terrorism?  I would see this as analogous to a search before entering a plane, when they are only looking for items that can be used in a violent attack.

by markjay 2008-06-21 03:07PM | 0 recs
hmm

Man on the phone to friend after reading his visa bill full of charges his girlfriend made : "Man, I'm going to kill her when I get home"

Friend: "make sure you don't break anything you'll want to return, haha."

Should the NSA send the tape to the local pd and have him picked up on the way home? Should the nsa first pull the guys records ton see if he has a history of violence, and calculate the probability of his sincerity?

If he does go home and assaults her, could/should this conversation be used as evidence in court, if not to prevent the violent crime?

What about rape?

Should convicted sex offenders be subject to constant total surveillance at all times even long after their debt to society has been paid?

Please see my questions to you in a reply above.

by Is This Snark 2008-06-21 03:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry

Maybe the argument would make better  (or 'some') sense if the Govt had ever in the last seven years even once demonstrated that all of this warrantless garbage had in fact protected anyone. One of the problems I have always had is that not once have we in fact gotten any actual proof that any of this has in fact made our country safer in  so much as a single instance. We haven't. The only people who are made safer by it are the dictator wannabees who keep wanting just a little more of this and just a little more after that because they NEEEED it so badly. As if it's a power jones and not a protection of you or me at all. How about a little proof?

by Christy1947 2008-06-22 11:04AM | 0 recs
They ARE searching for weed when u board

by benmasel 2008-06-21 05:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support warrantless electronic surveilla
Can I ask?
given your background...your thoughts on Corky?
by nogo postal 2008-06-21 02:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support warrantless electronic surveilla

I don't know what/who Corky is.

by markjay 2008-06-21 02:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support warrantless electronic surveilla

Once a government starts spying on its own people it will start using the results of that spying to control and manipulate the populace. What is to stop a future administration from building an enemies list based on warrantless wiretapping data? Combine this with a loss of habeas corpus and you have a perfect environment for a new gulag system filled with domestic opponents.

The belief of many people is that we have more to fear in the long run from our own government gone bad than we do from terrorists. True or not, it is a valid concern.

by MS01 Indie 2008-06-21 02:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support warrantless electronic surveilla

OK, that's a good point.  Could you imagine legislation that could be crafted that could make legal  automatized massive surveillance of phone and online communications but restrict the ways that such surveillance could be used?

by markjay 2008-06-21 03:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support warrantless electronic surveilla

Yes, I can. It's called judicial oversight. Anything that puts the power in the hands of one branch of government with no review is just asking for trouble. We would also need a sundowner clause for all non-relevant data. Something on the order of 72 hours then it has to be permanently erased.

by MS01 Indie 2008-06-21 04:18PM | 0 recs
One thing to remember...

Our commitment to personal liberties isn't judged by what we do when things are easy, but rather what we do when things get tough.

by TCQuad 2008-06-21 02:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support warrantless electronic surveilla

Markyjay...if you do not know who Corky is...please stop your bullshit about involvement with the UFW and their background....
I will suggest you start with the word Chicano.
I suggest you quit trying to pretend your background is more extensive in regard with the UFW without knowing the importance that Corky in the movement.

A poem for a troll

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/lati nos/joaquin.htm

by nogo postal 2008-06-21 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support warrantless electronic surveilla

I worked for the UFW for one year in 1976, in Oakland, San Francisco, and San Jose.  I never claimed to be familiar with every important Chicano activist in U.S. history.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make?  I have been making reasoned posts here for quite a while, sharing lots of information about my personal background.  If you disagree with what I have to say, let's hear your arguments.

by markjay 2008-06-21 02:55PM | 0 recs
Re: troll music

Oh yeah..the first serious political action in my life took place in the summer of 1968(I had my HS graduation in June) helping to organize workers in Weld County CO into the UFW...
"Don't try to lay no boogie woogie on
the king of rock and roll"
so...tap yer toes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfbKIOexL Dc&feature=related

by nogo postal 2008-06-21 03:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support warrantless electronic surveilla
I guess,; my problem with your post is simple...
You claim to have a background involving the UFW..
Your failure to recognize Corky's efforts says a lot....
Perhaps...maybe..just maybe...our efforts in support of the UFW are different.
Can you understand why I challenge you on your background?
After you post your activity...I will do the same....
See you here in Denver...when the largest demonstrations will involve immigration.  
by nogo postal 2008-06-21 03:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support warrantless electronic surveilla

In February 1976, shortly after I graduated college, I joined what the UFW called "the boycott".  I lived in what were called "boycott" houses in San Jose, Oakland, and San Francisco from February 1976 to November 1976.  We got paid room and board and $5 per week.  We learned Saul Alinsky-type organizing techniques via Marshall Ganz.  We went to church groups, student groups, labor groups, etc. and made presentations on behalf of the UFW.  Initially, we were building support for a  grape or lettuce boycott, organizing picket lines at stores, etc.  Then, we worked to try to defeat California proposition 22.  I also traveled with the UFW during that year up to Oregon to assist on Jerry Brown's presidential campaign (who was supported by the UFW).  During that year, I got to know Dolores Huerta, who I later got to know better during my Central America work (see below) and still know (albeit as a distant acquaintance) today.

In the late 1970s/early 1980s, I was involved in Central America solidarity work in San Francisco.  I then went to CISPES national office in 1981 for one year, where I was the national labor coordinator (coordinating activities to build support for progressive trade unions in El Salvador).  After leaving CISPES national office after one year, I helped found the Labor Network on Central America, which was a grassroots organization with local chapters in several West Coast cities designed to build progressive labor support against U.S. intervention in Central America and against the repression of progressive unions there.  I helped lead three labor delegations to El Salvador and Nicaragua, one of which was for a world festival of trade unions in solidarity with the Nicaraguan people, and one of which was to investigate trade union repression in El Salvador.  That last trip was pretty scary, because of the very repressive Salvadoran regime in power, but that's another story.

by markjay 2008-06-21 03:39PM | 0 recs
Your thoughts on surveillance of CISPES

during the period you worked there?

by benmasel 2008-06-21 05:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Your thoughts on surveillance of CISPES

OK, that's probably the best question on the thread.

Though I was, and am, against it, I also look back on it as pretty harmless, as we weren't engaged in any illegal activity and some of the attempts to prove that we were were pretty ham-handed.  Anyway, it was just something we took for granted--we always  assumed that our phones were bugged and are communications were monitored.

by markjay 2008-06-21 07:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support warrantless electronic surveilla

I would rather be blown to a thousand pieces by a terrorist bomb, than surrender a single right(which I have enjoyed) that belongs to future generations. I suspect that anyone who advocates otherwise on this site is one of the useful ones who help bring us the last eight years and have now turned their affection on Barack.  Repeat after me "sound bites are not more important than policy, I will not support bad policy no matter who proposes it or how many times they apologize for it. Any Democrat that proposes legalizing spying on US Citizens without a warrant should be kicked out of office then tarred and feathered".

by RedstateLib 2008-06-21 03:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support warrantless electronic surveilla
"I have also been a full-time organizer for the United Farm Workers union and the Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador. I have a long history as a progressive activist."
You subsequently write
" I worked for the UFW for one year in 1976, in Oakland, San Francisco, and San Jose."
So your involvement was at most one year..
If you want to make a point cool...
but save pumping up your resume for your next job...
This is 2008...if you are not aware of the reality of immigrants in your area...
wake the fuck up and get involved....
Start out with your local AFSC..
(you do know who these folks are right?)
by nogo postal 2008-06-21 03:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support warrantless electronic surveilla

I apologize if you thought I was exaggerating my resume.  I simply said I worked as  a full-time organizer for the UFW, I didn't say for how long. (Actually it was 9-12 months.  I can't remember the exact length.)  Next time I will indicate the approximate duration.

by markjay 2008-06-21 03:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Why I support warrantless electronic surveilla

I share your concerns about security both individual or national .

However I do not agree these surveillance should be done without warrants .

These surveillances can be done within the confines of our constitution.

There is the potential for abuse if we start allowing surveillances that goes beyond what is constitutionally allowed.

However I am for streamlining the process to make it as effective as possible so we don't lose vital information either because of the ineffectiveness of bureaucracy involved in the process or the slowness .

This can be achieved by passing new laws.

I am not against the compromise that has been reached in congress , I am not one that is overly stuck on the immunity thing.

by lori 2008-06-21 03:42PM | 0 recs
Here's what is wrong with your thinking.

You start with the premise that we need to enact laws that restrict our freedom and invade our privacy. Why not start with making the U.S. a better playmate in the world's sandbox? Then they won't want to kill us and we won't need your telecom immunity giveaway.

Change the world. Start at home.

by edg1 2008-06-21 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Here's what is wrong with your thinking.

Actually I agree, that's part of the solution.  But I think that, in a world of 5 billion people, there will always be a considerable number (albeit a small percent) of violent discontented folks.  Think, for example, of the cult in Japan which tried to spread Sarin gas in the subways.  I don't think they were motivated by how good or bad a playmate Japan was.

by markjay 2008-06-21 07:21PM | 0 recs
Thanks

I'd like to thank everybody to took the time to respond to this diary.  I think you made a lot of excellent points and asked some tough questions.  I'll continue to think about this issue more.

Thank you again.

by markjay 2008-06-21 07:22PM | 0 recs
Lemme add my thoughts

I wrote a complex comment then lost it in a mouseclick (god I hate computers!).  Here is a condensed version coment from a different diary with some other alterations.

My view is that this is a complex issue not limited to privacy issues, the actual threats are real as well.  FISA, the Patriot Act and a great deal of structural stuff that the current administration has done for many years now has made it difficult to address the real threat and simultaneously redress the mess they have made.  The legal aspects of this are not my specific forte, but I work in the field of addressing the threats of cyber terrorism and information security as a whole, and I think we have bigger problems to address to strike the correct balance between privacy, security and accountability than this one vote.

We need to change the entire mindset of the federal administration to deal with that balance, so not allowing this administration to sit in place for four more years is the only answer to the issue that FISA has brought (back) to everyone's attention.

I did kick the nest on one of the infosec lists I inhabit, and the overwhelming consensus is that it is a piece of crap (nothing new there).  I guess from my perspective we both need to see how this plays out politically and with specific attention to how the telecom immunity works out.  In the end we need to stop the assholes who want to kill us all while also stopping the assholes who want to pry into our lives for unrelated reasons.

-chris

by chrisblask 2008-06-21 09:24PM | 0 recs

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