Oh Shit! Looks like it's Netanyahu. Let the games begin

This story from the Associated Press (via MSNBC) sent shivers down the spines of every human rights activist here and in the Middle East. It will be more of the same, as Netanyahu is now favored to take over the government, even though confrontation with the Obama administration has been made inevitable.

And Shimon Peres, the sham peacenik President of Israel, is out there in right wing drag showing his true colors. It was up to him to bring together a coalition of parties to lead the country forward, not backward.

Netanyahu set for power after far-right backing is the title of the story.

Subtitle: Israeli ultranationalists endorse ex-PM for role he lost a decade ago

JERUSALEM - Far-right politician Avigdor Lieberman endorsed Benjamin Netanyahu for Israeli prime minister on Thursday, all but guaranteeing that Netanyahu will be the country's next leader. The divisive Lieberman emerged as the kingmaker of Israeli politics after the Feb. 10 election produced a deadlock between its two largest parties, and his backing of Netanyahu could be the basis for a hardline government.

Such a government could freeze peace talks with the Palestinians, hurt Israel's standing in the world and place it on a possible collision course with President Barack Obama, who has said Mideast peacemaking will be a top priority of his administration.

(snip)

Lieberman announced his decision in a meeting with President Shimon Peres, who is holding consultations with political parties this week before choosing a candidate to form a government. If Peres names Netanyahu, then Netanyahu will have six weeks to work out a deal with other parties to create a coalition. Lieberman has raised eyebrows around the world with his calls to make Israel's Arab minority swear loyalty to the state or lose their citizenship.

Netanyahu has been an open critic of current peace talks with the Palestinians, refuses to withdraw any settlements in the Palestinian territories to permit a Palestinian state to emerge, supports a undivided Israeli controlled Jerusalem, no right of return for Palestinians who became refugees after the 1948 ethnic cleansing, and recently stated that he would turn to his "natural" allies among the religious and nationalist parties in parliament. Presumably that would also include welcome a mat for the Christian Zionists he and Joe Lieberman courted these past few years.

Netanyahu's inevitable role in Israel's history will be the leader who dragged Israel into a formal state of Apartheid.

Who says that Jimmy Carter did not know what he was talking about?

Tags: Israel, Netanyahu, Palestine (all tags)

Comments

67 Comments

"...after the 1948 ethnic cleansing"

are you kidding? There was no ethnic cleansing. The British, who owned Palestine at the time said the Jews can have it, and thus established the state of Israel. I'm sorry if the Jews having their historical homeland, especially after the Holocaust is "ethnic cleansing," but your anti-Semitism sure is on your sleeve. The fact is there is a state of Israel, a JEWISH State of Israel, and there will continue to be. The Palestinians will have their land too once they stop listening to people, no THUGS like HAMAS. Even the Palestinian PM knows this

here's a good poem: "Israel above all, when for protection and defense it takes a brotherly stand together. From the Mediterranean to the Dead Sea, from the Golf, until Golan. Israel above all."

by Lakrosse 2009-02-19 08:40AM | 0 recs
Re: "...after the 1948 ethnic cleansing"

Well it is really time to stop the lies and stop calling people who tell the truth, antiSemitic. Came across this piece a few months ago. Read it. It was not for the British to give, as it belonged to another people for over a thousand years.

1. What is Plan Dalet?

Sixty years ago today Zionist political and military leaders met at the "Red House" in Tel Aviv and agreed to Plan Dalet, which called for the systematic expulsion of Palestinians from areas sought for the soon-to-be-founded state of Israel. The plan led to what Palestinians refer to as the Nakba.

At that time, Jews owned only about seven percent of the land in Palestine and constituted about 33 percent of the population. The Palestinians' presence and predominant ownership of the land were obstacles to the creation of a Jewish state. Moshe Sharett, Israel's second prime minister, said "We have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but we have come to conquer a country from people inhabiting it."

2. Who devised Plan Dalet?

Top leaders of the Haganah, the leading Zionist underground militia in Palestine at the time, formulated Plan Dalet. One of the key instigators was David Ben-Gurion, who became Israel's first prime minister. A long-time proponent of expelling the Palestinians, 10 years earlier he stated to the Jewish Agency Executive, "I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it.

3. When was Plan Dalet implemented?

Israel has since claimed that it was attacked by surrounding Arab states immediately after its founding on May 14, 1948, and that refugees fled due to the ensuing conflict. In fact, Plan Dalet predated the entrance of the Arab states into war with Israel. Some 250,000 Palestinians were expelled in the two months between the March 10 adoption of Plan Dalet and the establishment of Israel in mid-May. The stream of refugees into the Arab states created pressure on them to intervene to stanch the flow. It is more accurate to say that the refugee flight caused Arab intervention than the other way around.

4. What resulted from Plan Dalet?

Plan Dalet led to the depopulation of at least 450 Palestinian towns and villages, most of which were demolished to prevent the return of the refugees. By the end of 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinians - two-thirds of the Palestinian population - were exiled. It is estimated that more than 50 percent fled under direct military assault. Others fled in panic as news of massacres spread - for example, more than 100 civilians killed in the village of Deir Yassin on April 9 and 200 in Tantura between May 22nd and 23rd.

5. Why is Plan Dalet relevant today?

Israel will commemorate its 60th anniversary this May without acknowledging the ethnic cleansing and dispossession of Palestinians it perpetrated. At the same time, Palestinians will mark their dispossession and remind the world of their right to return to their homeland. An overwhelming majority of Palestinians believes that refugee rights must be remedied for peace between Palestinians and Israelis to endure.

No ethnic cleansing?

by MainStreet 2009-02-19 10:20AM | 0 recs
Is this part of the New World Order?

as this is not only not sourced, but heavily anti-Israel. If you wanna say how "Palestine" belonged to Arabs for "over a thousand years," I'll remind you that the long was the Jews for much longer before the Muslim invasion.

by Lakrosse 2009-02-19 10:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Is this part of the New World Order?

History doesn't march backwards. If the Zionists were willing to share the land in one state, it might have worked. But ethnically cleansing 800,000 indigenous people from nearly 500 villages and towns by force is just not justified, and six months later, the UN passed Resolution 194, the right of those ethnically cleansed people to return to their homes. We are still waiting for that to happen.

Sorry, but the post above came from The Institute for Middle East Understanding.

by MainStreet 2009-02-19 10:34AM | 0 recs
The 'Institute' - OMG.

First sentence from their website.

The Institute for Middle East Understanding offers journalists and editors quick access to information about Palestine and the Palestinians

That sounds non-biased!

From their get smart quick page:

1.4 - What is the significance of Jerusalem to Christians and Muslims?

No need to educate people why Jerusalem is important to Jews!

I love this piece of fantasy...

The first Zionist colony was established in 1882 in the coastal plain of Palestine, near what is today Tel Aviv. Palestinians quickly realized that the Zionist movement threatened their own aspirations for freedom and self-rule. Prior to the advent of Zionism, Christians, Muslims, and Jews had lived in Palestine in relative harmony.

This is your source, MainStreet?  If you don't see this website as propaganda then you are blind, my friend.

by oc 2009-02-19 10:59AM | 0 recs
Re: The 'Institute' - OMG.

There are plenty other sources describing Plan Dalet.

What you are suggesting here is that facts are propaganda. You probably need to look up the historians on these matters, like Ilan Pappe and Benny Morris. Since Morris is a hard Zionist, I'm sure that you will believe the conclusions of his historical analyses. Pappes' book is entitled the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. It is the source of information used by IMEU.

Sorry, if you prefer to call a legitimate academic source of knowledge propaganda, that's your choice.

Actually, this is pretty old hat stuff you're trying to counter. Recommend that you get up in the area. I'm no expert but then again I'm not a consumer of false histories either.

by MainStreet 2009-02-19 12:56PM | 0 recs
Re: The 'Institute' - OMG.

So you really believe the Christians, Muslims and Jews were making sweet love in the region prior to Zionism?  Wow.

So you don't think it's odd that your source for describing a complicated region (an I-P 101 type of Q&A) by explaining why Jerusalem is important for Muslims and Christians w/o mentioning Jews.

I'm sorry, but this is your choice.  

A tip: If your reading a website or book on the IP conflict and you never feel uncomfortable with what you are reading, then you're reading something too biased to be trusted.  I would never try to back a statement I made by linking to ZionismOnTheWeb.com - it wouldn't convince you and rightly so.  There is no such thing as pure non-bias, but one should aim for it.

Half truths are worse than lies.  

BTW, I do want to mention that I appreciate your respectful tone through this discussion.  Really.

by oc 2009-02-19 01:44PM | 0 recs
Re: The 'Institute' - OMG.

"Half truths are worse than lies."

I keep hearing these kinds of claims but then when I look, there is nothing backing them up. Just what half truths are you talking about?

by MainStreet 2009-02-19 03:33PM | 0 recs
Here we Dalet again...

You must have learned this talking point from Shergald, as well as your debate style (except you are polite).  Repeating junk doesn't make it real.

So I'll repeat...
I guess you don't know that Dalet (ד) is the 4th letter in the Hebrew alef-bet.  All gov'ts write up various plans to address hypothetical responses to hypothetical situations.

Do you know anything about:

Plan א
Plan ב
Plan ג

Guess what comes after Gimel? That's right, DALET (ד)!!  If Israel or the Haganah wanted to rid the area of Arabs, wouldn't the 'famous' 'Plan Dalet' been titled 'Plan Alef'?  hmmmm.

Did you hear about the arab plan of pushing the Jews into the sea, that sound's like ethnic cleansing, and the arabs actually implemented that plan (it failed).  Dalet was a conditional plan in case the Arabs succeeded.  

So ethnic cleansing, I think not.  You do know that Israel does have, and has had the capability for some time, to remove (whatever that means) every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank and every Arab Israeli for that matter.  Yet Israel has not.  Point is, if Israel wanted to perform ethnic cleansing, they would have, but Israel has not.

by oc 2009-02-19 10:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Here we Dalet again...

Provided the history sources above and will not repeat. Not even Israeli historians deny what the Palestinians call the Nakba, the ethnic cleansing of 1948. And here you are trying to do so, without any knowledge to back up how 800,000 Palestinians found themselves in refugee camps outside of what became Israel. The UN eventually counted 711,000 Palestinians in the refugee camps that came under its control through the newly created UNWRA agency, which still provides that humanitarian service. The others went into various Arab cities or emigrated to other countries.

These are facts, even though you apparently don't like them repeated.

by MainStreet 2009-02-19 01:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh Shit!

Netanyahu is a fucking insane thug.

by RichardFlatts 2009-02-19 08:42AM | 0 recs
I still have HOPE for CHANGE

as should you. There are actually some Palestinians leaders who are standing up for what is right and encouraging people to help rebuilt by giving to the people, not the terrorists, i.e HAMAS. We have a hands on President in Obama right now.

by Lakrosse 2009-02-19 08:47AM | 0 recs
Hope won't buy you a cup of coffee

... and I am sick of talking about change.

I never bought any of that nonsense to begin with.   This is about politics.

by RichardFlatts 2009-02-19 08:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Hope won't buy you a cup of coffee
Nice cliché!
...and stop ending sentences with prepositions.
by oc 2009-02-19 09:27AM | 0 recs
this is the kind of anachronistic pedantry

up with which no good writer should put.

by JJE 2009-02-19 10:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh S**t!
Brilliant comment.
And stop being a potty mouth.
by oc 2009-02-19 09:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh Shit! Looks like it's Netanyahu. Let the ga

At least Cheney's gone. He and Netanyahu in power at the same time would have been devastating for the entire world.

by JimR 2009-02-19 09:02AM | 0 recs
I thought it didn't matter

I believe you have stated that there is no difference between Barak, Livni or Netanyahu?  So why do you care who becomes the PM of Israel?  According to you and others in the anti-Zionists gang, they're all the same.

Note: Peres' job as President is to select a candidate to form a coalition after meeting with the various parties and hearing who they will back and, more importantly, who they will not back.  Livni had the backing of no party outside of Kadima.  Labor said they would not back Kadima and wants to be in the opposition.  So the only party that can realistically form a gov't is Likud (that is just fact).  That is not the choice of Peres.  If Netanyahu cannot for a gov't, then there has to be another election (I think).  So stop inferring that Peres gave something to Netanyahu out of preference.

Re 1948 ethnic cleansing: Propaganda
On Carter: Many

by oc 2009-02-19 09:15AM | 0 recs
Re: I thought it didn't matter

Peres, when he comes to America, never talks peace. What he talks about is how Israel was attacked by seven armies, but he never tells anyone what provoked the attack or that it was a humanitarian effort to save the Palestinians.

And I can't believe I have to post this twice. This staff is old hat, and I'm certain that you're aware of it.

1. What is Plan Dalet?

Sixty years ago today Zionist political and military leaders met at the "Red House" in Tel Aviv and agreed to Plan Dalet, which called for the systematic expulsion of Palestinians from areas sought for the soon-to-be-founded state of Israel. The plan led to what Palestinians refer to as the Nakba.

At that time, Jews owned only about seven percent of the land in Palestine and constituted about 33 percent of the population. The Palestinians' presence and predominant ownership of the land were obstacles to the creation of a Jewish state. Moshe Sharett, Israel's second prime minister, said "We have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but we have come to conquer a country from people inhabiting it."

2. Who devised Plan Dalet?

Top leaders of the Haganah, the leading Zionist underground militia in Palestine at the time, formulated Plan Dalet. One of the key instigators was David Ben-Gurion, who became Israel's first prime minister. A long-time proponent of expelling the Palestinians, 10 years earlier he stated to the Jewish Agency Executive, "I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it.

3. When was Plan Dalet implemented?

Israel has since claimed that it was attacked by surrounding Arab states immediately after its founding on May 14, 1948, and that refugees fled due to the ensuing conflict. In fact, Plan Dalet predated the entrance of the Arab states into war with Israel. Some 250,000 Palestinians were expelled in the two months between the March 10 adoption of Plan Dalet and the establishment of Israel in mid-May. The stream of refugees into the Arab states created pressure on them to intervene to stanch the flow. It is more accurate to say that the refugee flight caused Arab intervention than the other way around.

4. What resulted from Plan Dalet?

Plan Dalet led to the depopulation of at least 450 Palestinian towns and villages, most of which were demolished to prevent the return of the refugees. By the end of 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinians - two-thirds of the Palestinian population - were exiled. It is estimated that more than 50 percent fled under direct military assault. Others fled in panic as news of massacres spread - for example, more than 100 civilians killed in the village of Deir Yassin on April 9 and 200 in Tantura between May 22nd and 23rd.

5. Why is Plan Dalet relevant today?

Israel will commemorate its 60th anniversary this May without acknowledging the ethnic cleansing and dispossession of Palestinians it perpetrated. At the same time, Palestinians will mark their dispossession and remind the world of their right to return to their homeland. An overwhelming majority of Palestinians believes that refugee rights must be remedied for peace between Palestinians and Israelis to endure.

No ethnic cleansing?

by MainStreet 2009-02-19 10:28AM | 0 recs
Re: I thought it didn't matter

Just a note: this came from The Institute for Middle East Understanding site.

by MainStreet 2009-02-19 10:30AM | 0 recs
That's not fair...

...placing the same comment in two different places.  I responded to P L A N  D A L E T and your little website up above.  Go read, if you wish.

by oc 2009-02-19 11:04AM | 0 recs
Re: That's not fair...

I did read what you said, but I just didn't get it. The first Zionists settled in Palestine in the late 1800s. What's the problem? Most historians concur with that.

But what has any of this have to do with the 40 year military occupation of the Palestinian people and the colonization of their lands in the territories, contrary to international law, now 42% of it and increasing?

Just not getting it.

by MainStreet 2009-02-19 03:48PM | 0 recs
Re: I thought it didn't matter

Did the diary say that it did matter?

by Carl Nyberg 2009-02-19 11:33AM | 0 recs
Looks like you brought out the Bibi fans

I guess the servers at Little Green Footballs must be down.

by JJE 2009-02-19 10:56AM | 0 recs
Who's defending Bibi?

And I just pinged littlegreenfootballs.com, there up!

c:>ping littlegreenfootballs.com

Pinging littlegreenfootballs.com [74.86.198.236] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 74.86.198.236: byte=32 time=49ms TTL=50
Reply from 74.86.198.236: byte=32 time=49ms TTL=50
Reply from 74.86.198.236: byte=32 time=49ms TTL=50
Reply from 74.86.198.236: byte=32 time=49ms TTL=50

by oc 2009-02-19 11:09AM | 0 recs
uhh, I mean, 'they're up'

by oc 2009-02-19 12:29PM | 0 recs
You got all offended

when RichardFlatts called him a mean name.

by JJE 2009-02-19 12:55PM | 0 recs
Wasn't offended.

I wasn't commenting on Bibi, I was commenting on the s*t and f*k.

by oc 2009-02-19 01:26PM | 0 recs
welcome to the internet

it's full of those nasty swears.

by JJE 2009-02-19 04:00PM | 0 recs
This is probably for the better

at least now the cards are on the table.  Likud's honesty about their goals is refreshing in contrast to Kadima pretending it wants a two-state peace while expanding the settlements.  And hopefully we'll hear less empty mewling about how "Israel just wants peace!".

by JJE 2009-02-19 11:07AM | 0 recs
Re: This is probably for the better

Bingo.

by MainStreet 2009-02-19 01:13PM | 0 recs
I'd like to welcome Mr. Nyberg...

...he should be commenting shortly.

by oc 2009-02-19 11:18AM | 0 recs
Strange comment from you

in light of the fact that we rarely see you commenting unless the subject somehow relates to I/P, unless it's to troll Carl.

by JJE 2009-02-19 06:52PM | 0 recs
LONG LIVE ISRAEL

and it shall. It is an enduring oasis of democracy in a sea of Islamofascism, which shall lose, as has HAMAS and will HAMAS. HAMAS for some reason cannot just accept Israel's existence. There would be a ceasefire if they just released the Israeli they've been holding and probably tortured for years. Israel is a state, HAMAS is a terror organization, and it needs to know that. HAMAS has liberated nobody, unless you wanna consider the war they've brought as "liberation." They are to Palestine as what Bush was to Iraq, "liberators."

by Lakrosse 2009-02-19 11:25AM | 0 recs
Nah

Israel is the better fit for Bush in this analogy.  They both follow a simple plan:

(1) Do whatever the hell you want without regard for international law or human rights.

(2) If anyone criticizes it shout WAR ON TERRA!  SCARY TERRA-ISTS!  ISLAMOFASCISM!  UNDERPANTS GNOMES!

(3) Profit!

by JJE 2009-02-19 11:33AM | 0 recs
Israel a democracy?

Are Palestinians human beings?

Don't democracies usually respect human rights? Don't democracies usually allow people to vote to determine control of the government that rules over them?

Israel is a Jewish state, not a democracy. The policy of Israel is to maintain a significant majority of Jews. To achieve this Israel violates the human rights of non-Jews (Palestinians).

Was Apartheid South Africa a democracy because it allowed "Whites" to vote?

by Carl Nyberg 2009-02-19 11:38AM | 0 recs
Yes

Israel just had an election.  Didn't you even bother to read MainStreet's diary?  Arab Israeli's voted as well you know.  So did Israeli's from African and Asian origin.

The policy of Israel is to maintain a significant majority of Jews. To achieve this Israel violates the human rights of non-Jews (Palestinians).

So you think Palestinians should be able to vote in Israeli elections?  That's odd and wrong.  News flash, Palestinians are not Israelis.  That's why they want a nation.  I hear they want to call it 'Palestine'.

Should Israeli's be able to vote in Gaza elections?  The answer is 'no'.

This is a new idea you propose that non-citizens be able to vote in elections.  I like it.  Where can I register to vote in Iran?

by oc 2009-02-19 12:28PM | 0 recs
so why doesn't

Israel offer Palestinians citizenship of Israel?  Since Israel is not willing to allow them to have a state in any meaningful sense, it should allow them to be full citizens of Israel and then it could have the West Bank legitimately.

by JJE 2009-02-19 01:11PM | 0 recs
I don't run Israel.

My 2nd try...

Take it up with management (the U.N.).
I wasn't commenting on a single v. two state solution.  I was simply informing the previous commentor on why Palestinians do not vote in Israel.  Palestinians are not Israeli.

The U.N. created two states, one for Jews and Arabs to be called Israel and one for Arabs to be called 'Palestine' (I assume).

by oc 2009-02-19 01:24PM | 0 recs
Re: I don't run Israel.

And how long has Israel occupied that other country?

And how much of the land has been annexed?

by Carl Nyberg 2009-02-19 03:36PM | 0 recs
Re: I don't run Israel.

Update for you: Gaza and the West Bank hold elections for the Palastinians.  Arabs in Israel do vote.

Since no country existed, no country was 'invaded', no country is being occupied.  That's why it is called the Occupied Territories.

Rrrinnggg...

by oc 2009-02-19 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: I don't run Israel.

Yes, Zionism is good at creating legal exception for Palestinians. Palestinians are not citizens of Israel and Israel refuses to recognize Palestine. Ergo Palestinians are citizens of no country and therefore lack a country to protect their human rights, therefore Palestinians lack human rights.

This is sorta like Bush creating the identity "enemy combatants" b/c he neither wanted to extend the Geneva Convention protections to POWs or the Geneva Convention protections of civilians.

by Carl Nyberg 2009-02-19 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: I don't run Israel.

This is not ideological.  Palestine is not a country.  It's not complicated.  Really.  And it's not because Israel won't recognize Palestine, it's because it's just not a country.  Sorry to break it to you.  Ask the U.N..  Damn, ask Syria, Iran, Jordan, Egypt - they'll agree with that as well.  Every country on the planet sees that.  I thought all anti-Zionists understood that, until now.  That's what many people (and alot of Palestinians) are fighting for - a country for the Palestinians!  In 1948 the Palestinians refused to declare statehood...  ...that means no country.

and since you brought up Bush, as ignorant as he was/is, he even understood (after hours of explanation) that Palestine is not a country, it's a territory.  I know you've got more in your dome than Bush.

by oc 2009-02-19 06:33PM | 0 recs
Re: I don't run Israel.

The Arab people of Palestine had their country turned into Israel then two thirds of them were forced to leave their villages. It is the source of this conflict. This is not difficult to understand.

by MainStreet 2009-02-19 11:10PM | 0 recs
Re: I don't run Israel.

It is if you're deliberately trying not to.

by Jess81 2009-02-19 11:24PM | 0 recs
Re: I don't run Israel.

What other part of the world with significant habitation falls into this "not a country" definition?

by Carl Nyberg 2009-02-20 02:29AM | 0 recs
Wait

so you're saying there IS a state of Palestine?  Then what is all this fuss about and why do people keep talking about a two-state solution as if it's an aspiration rather than a fact?

by JJE 2009-02-19 03:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Wait

I put 'Palestine' in quotes for obvious reasons - there is and has never been a Palestine.

I do hope there is a Palestine in the near future though, in a manner is just for all (sane) people.

by oc 2009-02-19 04:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Wait

Never? Although these kinds of arguments are irrelevant to today's issues, when the Romans occupied Palestine it was called Palestinia. After the region became Arabic, you might like to learn, Jerusalem became known at Al Quds, a name still carried by a Palestinian university.

Palestine is the name of an Arabic country that in 1948 became Israel plus what later became known as the OPT, the UN nomenclature for the "occupied Palestinian territories."

No, it was never a land without a people.

by MainStreet 2009-02-19 05:31PM | 0 recs
So you erred

when you said that the UN created two states, since to create means to bring into existence.  

The likelihood of a Palestine separate from Israel is vanishingly small, as Israel is unwilling to grant the Palestinians anything remotely resembling genuine statehood and the status quo is to Israel's great advantage in achieving its aims in the West Bank.  

The day "friends of Israel" who also claim to empathize with the Palestinians are forced to come to grips with this reality and abandon the two-state fantasy will be a day of great progress.

by JJE 2009-02-19 06:42PM | 0 recs
Where can I register to vote in Iran?

When Iran invades and occupies your country and denies your country sovereignty I will fully support your right to vote in Iranian elections.

I'll even support you getting your country back if Iran doesn't allow you to vote.

Am I gracious?

by Carl Nyberg 2009-02-19 03:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Where can I register to vote in Iran?

I didn't realize there was ever a country called Palestine?

by oc 2009-02-19 04:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Where can I register to vote in Iran?

So, if a people don't have their own country, they don't have human rights?

A bunch of Zionists might be able to sit around at temple and talk themselves into the idea that because Israel doesn't recognize Palestine as a country that the occupation isn't an occupation.

But to people who aren't so ideologically committed to Zionism that their logic functions are short-circuited the argument makes no sense.

by Carl Nyberg 2009-02-19 05:41PM | 0 recs
Are your true colors starting to show?

you're walking close to the edge with this comment.

A bunch of Zionists might be able to sit around at temple

You're obviously ignorant to Zionism.  It has secular foundations and most Zionists never goto temple or even believe in God.  Religious Zionists were late to the party.

I'm not accusing you of anything, but...    שלום

by oc 2009-02-19 06:47PM | 0 recs
Re: LONG LIVE ISRAEL

No one doesn't want Israel to continue and any claim to the opposite is just propaganda, the latest "right to exist" meme.

All the Palestinians want is 22% of what was their country, original Palestine, back in order to be able to create a country of their own, to be free, to be a self-determining people. Israel, by contrast, does not believe in the right of Palestine to exist. That is so obvious from the facts on the ground, what 40 years of military occupation, continuing ethnic cleansing, and the colonization of Palestinian property. 42% of the Palestinian territories is now in Israeli hands, where almost a half million Israelis live.

It is just too late for most people to hear old hat propaganda intended to cover up these facts. What is sorrowful to me is my own contribution to these injustices, via my tax monies, which go to Israel every year.

by MainStreet 2009-02-19 01:21PM | 0 recs
Re: LONG LIVE ISRAEL

Let's try to be fair here. Israel is concerned with Israel. Israel would be fine with a Palestinian state if they believed it would not impact their national security - and this is the problem - they clearly believe that it would.

This is an understanding of the problem that provides a foundation to work from. If you maintain the "Israel does not believe in the right of Palestine to exist", then there is no point in trying to fix the problem - one side or the other is going to have to go, and that won't look too good for your side.

But if we approach this problem from the perspective that Israel has perceived national security issues, then we have someplace to work from. What can we do to bolster Israeli national security while still working towards a Palestinian state? That is a constructive understanding. That provides a framework for solution.

If both sides can tone down the propaganda a bit, we might be able to make some progress.

by pneuma 2009-02-20 05:27AM | 0 recs
Re: LONG LIVE ISRAEL

The security meme, focused within the past two years on Hamas, is a pure red herring.

Here we have the fourth largest military force in the world, equiped with America's latest weapons including missile carrying drones, against a small band of resistance fighters that represents only 16% of the Palestinian people.

No, the writing is on the wall. Israel is moving toward the annexation of the Palestinian territories and will provide any excuse to justify it.

Sorry but not everyone is so daft as to believe that the Zionist conquest is somehow related to security. IT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR 40 YEARS, DURING WHICH TIME WE HAVE SEEN A NUMBER OF RED HERRINGS THROWN OUT THERE TO JUSTIFY THIS CONQUEST AND COLONIZATION.

Apartheid has been with us for a number of years now. Like the South African solution to the population of Blacks needing control, Israel has stepped into pure racism through its exclusion of Palestinian rights to freedom and self-determination.

There are no longer two sides at fault in this conflict. Nothing is more obvious.

by MainStreet 2009-02-20 07:35AM | 0 recs
Re: LONG LIVE ISRAEL

Not only are there two sides in this conflict, there are at least 12.

The fear Israelis have for their security on a daily basis is real, not a cynical red herring.  It must be addressed if there is to be a peaceful solution that rehabilitates the rights and communities of Palestinians, both in Israel and in the territories.  How it serves Palestinians to redundantly scream bullshit and to reduce a complex reality to a melodrama that is as simplistic as a silent film completely eludes me.  You and I both seek the same outcome.  Most here seek it as well.  Your approach impedes progress as much as its mirror opposites do.

by Strummerson 2009-02-20 08:34AM | 0 recs
Re: LONG LIVE ISRAEL

Thank you Strummerson. I get really frustrated with Mainstreet. He seems determined to find the least constructive way of presenting his position.

by pneuma 2009-02-20 09:28AM | 0 recs
Re: LONG LIVE ISRAEL

If this so-called trumpted up security issue can be addressed at all, it is only by way of its causes. What is causing the Israeli people to feel insecure, if that is true?

When one people attempts to subjugate another by ethnically cleansing them from their homeland (1948), by keeping them under an incessant 40 year military occupation for the sole purpose of stealing their lands (since 1967), it is not really fear that they express, it is guilt and denial. After all, it was the Nazis that did the same thing to Jews in Europe, who ethnically cleansed them, and then, when that was not enough, killed them, just as 1300 Palestinians were massacred in Gaza recently. And who can say that dying from phorphous bombs was not the equivalent of the ovens of Auschwitz?

It is unbelievable that Israelis are unable to appreciate their insecurity. After killing Palestinians for 60 years, whatelse can it be?

So I suggest that you address your comments to someone else. Perhaps someone like Bishop Tutu can give you some understanding.

by MainStreet 2009-02-20 10:12AM | 0 recs
Re: LONG LIVE ISRAEL

Okay.  You are right as always.  You see everything so completely clearly, it's almost like a cartoon.  Why would I need Bishop Tutu to give me understanding when I have your crystal cogency to aspire to?  All we need to establish a liberal paradise in Israel/Palestine is to amputate large swaths of reality and dismiss all perceptions that do not accord with yours.  Why didn't I see it before?

Thank you for "giving me understanding."  I once was blind, but now I see...

by Strummerson 2009-02-20 10:26AM | 0 recs
Re: THE REALITY

Any time I can be of help, please feel free to call.

by MainStreet 2009-02-20 10:53AM | 0 recs
Re: THE REALITY

Thanks again.  But what need would there possibly be for that?  You've cleared everything up definitively.  When you reduce your lesson so effectively, your curriculum is exhausted within five minutes.  Unless, of course you learn something new to teach us.  But you seem quite averse to learning or considering anything new.  So I think we are quite done here.  I'm sure that if you indoctrinate enough of us to stumble around playing your three note broken record, peace and justice will manifest momentarily.

by Strummerson 2009-02-20 10:58AM | 0 recs
Re: THE REALITY

Well, thanks so much once again.

It has bene a long time, but I remember a cheap looking restaurant with very high prices in Baltimore. To avoid complaints, its published motto was: the value is on the plate.

If you just read the diary, or even just the title, you would have gotten all you need to know. Why bother complaining about comments? Who reads comments, except me, only by the obligations of a diarist.

by MainStreet 2009-02-20 12:27PM | 0 recs
I don't run Israel.

Take it up with management (the U.N.).
I wasn't commenting on a single v. two state solution.  I was simply informing the previous commentor on why Palestinians do not vote in Israel.  Palestinians are not Israeli.

The U.N. created two states, one for Jews and Arabs to be called Israel and one for Arabs to be called 'Palestine' (I assume).

by oc 2009-02-19 01:22PM | 0 recs
Ooops, wrong place, sorry.

by oc 2009-02-19 01:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh Shit! Looks like it's Netanyahu

Netanyahu will simply carry out the same plans his predecessors have - the only difference is that he doesn't sugarcoat things.  It's going to make it hard for Israeli propagandists in this country to justify what Israel is doing.

No more "we would let them have a state if they would just renounce terror" while they're shooting Palestinians and bulldozing homes.

by Jess81 2009-02-19 10:52PM | 0 recs

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