CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

Yay, the rec list!

What a great day for all Liberals, people of every gender and sexual orientation, and especially us Californians!

The California State Supreme court has declared that the ban on Gay Marriage is illegal.

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/doc uments/S147999.DOC

Here's a link to the NYT article discussing the decision:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-CA-GayMarriage.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- The California Supreme Court has overturned a ban on gay marriage, paving the way for California to become the second state where gay and lesbian residents can marry. The justices released the 4-3 decision Thursday, saying that domestic partnerships are not a good enough substitute for marriage in an opinion written by Chief Justice Ron George. The cases were brought by the city of San Francisco, two dozen gay and lesbian couples, Equality California and another gay rights group in March 2004 after the court halted San Francisco's monthlong same-sex wedding march that took place at Mayor Gavin Newsom's direction.

This represents a very real victory for proponents of equal rights here in CA. Many of my associates at Bay Area law schools attended the arguments, and we had been hoping that the decision would go this way. The judges seemed pretty skeptical as to the quality of the arguments presented by the State, and those presenting the defense seemed dispirited and a little upset that they were having to support a position they didn't believe in.

This is likely to go back to the ballot initiative this Fall; there will always be enough mouth-breathers to get stupid stuff on the ballot. So the fight isn't over yet!

Congrats to equality!

From the decision (hat-tip to Slim Tyrrany!):

[W]e conclude that the purpose underlying differential treatment of opposite-sex and same-sex couples embodied in California's current marriage statutes -- the interest in retaining the traditional and well-established definition of marriage -- cannot properly be viewed as a compelling state interest for purposes of the equal protection clause, or as necessary to serve such an interest. A number of factors lead us to this conclusion. First, the exclusion of same-sex couples from the designation of marriage clearly is not necessary in order to afford full protection to all of the rights and benefits that currently are enjoyed by married opposite-sex couples; permitting same-sex couples access to the designation of marriage will not deprive opposite-sex couples of any rights and will not alter the legal framework of the institution of marriage, because same-sex couples who choose to marry will be subject to the same obligations and duties that currently are imposed on married opposite-sex couples. Second, retaining the traditional definition of marriage and affording same-sex couples only a separate and differently named family relationship will, as a realistic matter, impose appreciable harm on same-sex couples and their children, because denying such couples access to the familiar and highly favored designation of marriage is likely to cast doubt on whether the official family relationship of same-sex couples enjoys dignity equal to that of opposite-sex couples. Third, because of the widespread disparagement that gay individuals historically have faced, it is all the more probable that excluding same-sex couples from the legal institution of marriage is likely to be viewed as reflecting an official view that their committed relationships are of lesser stature than the comparable relationships of opposite-sex couples. Finally, retaining the designation of marriage exclusively for opposite-sex couples and providing only a separate and distinct designation for same-sex couples may well have the effect of perpetuating a more general premise -- now emphatically rejected by this state -- that gay individuals and same-sex couples are in some respects "second-class citizens" who may, under the law, be treated differently from, and less favorably than, heterosexual individuals or opposite-sex couples. Under these circumstances, we cannot find that retention of the traditional definition of marriage constitutes a compelling state interest. Accordingly, we conclude that to the extent the current California statutory provisions limit marriage to opposite-sex couples, these statutes are unconstitutional.

I'd like to mention that this issue is very personal to me. Living here in the Bay Area, we have become very close to many people, of all ages and sexual orientations, and the idea that the rights of some of these people is less then others has always been impossible for me to accept. There's nothing different, or unAmerican, or wrong, about people wanting to live a happy and stable life together.

I'm an Obama supporter. I don't want to turn this into a candidate diary, b/c it has nothing to do with him. But this is something that we had the Audacity to Hope for, for a long time now. It's a sign to me that positive change can happen, if people work hard at it. Let that be the lesson for Obama supporters everywhere: it's the hard work that got this decision to go our way, NOT the sense that we were RIGHT. Being right on an issue is only the first step.

Cheers to you all!

Tags: California, Gay Marriage (all tags)

Comments

140 Comments

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage!

gotta say I love Arnold! he opposes the initiative to change the CA Constitution! and get an amendment to vote this november!

way to go Arnold!

by TruthMatters 2008-05-15 09:22AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage!

Arnold is a girly man who has no guts just like Edwards.

When he had a chance to approve gay marriage in Ca, he declined. TWICE!!!

by 1986dude 2008-05-15 10:59AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage!

by Trey Rentz 2008-05-15 11:23AM | 0 recs
Oh Puh-leeze

Don't try to turn this into a victory for the one candidate that threw gay people under the bus in the South Carolina Homophobic Road Show.

I don't want to turn this into a candidate diary, b/c it has nothing to do with him. But this is something that we had the Audacity to Hope for, for a long time now.

Give me a break...Obama is the LAST person I would be voting for...precisely because of the way he has treated glbt people during his campaign.

I was going to recommend the diary until I read that line.  Damn!

by SoCalVet 2008-05-15 03:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh Puh-leeze

jason west, a green mayor in new paltz ny (thats right hill's home state) took a stand on gay marriage a couple of years ago.  many court dates, protests etc etc. and the one thing i can tell you is that not one of those three senators looking to become POTUS came to new paltz. not even the one who happens to be the senator of ny. this was a big national story and an opportunity to take a stand, but noone did. NOONE.

so............?

by citizendave 2008-05-15 08:27PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme

hmmm. Just in time for a Presidential election.

by WolfmanJack 2008-05-15 09:22AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme

uber-conservative initiatives fell flat in 2006, and would be even flatter in 2008, methinks. the first gay marriage amendment to be voted down was in 2006, South Dakota voted down an incredibly restrictive abortion ban and only passed a gay marriage amendment by a whopping 4%. that was a smaller margin than Oregon!

by terra 2008-05-15 09:27AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme

Yeah, that wedge issue ran its course in 2004, I think.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-05-15 09:32AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme

We can all whine later about the problems this could cause in Nov, but for right now, lets kick back and celebrate this hard fought victory!

by iowa dem 2008-05-15 09:54AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme

This will have backlash, because there's always backlash. But having this early in the cycle (May rather than October) means the backlash will subside significantly. Heck, we may not even hear about it very much after Tuesday because of the next batch of primaries.

More likely, it'll quiet and then June/July will be the apex for the topic, when the first actual marriages occur (from the article, 30 to 60 days from the time of the ruling), but after that, the conventions will refocus the discussion, using the economy, Iraq, etc., unless the DNC specifically chooses to emphasize gay marriage.

by TCQuad 2008-05-15 12:44PM | 0 recs
YES that was the first thing I thought of......

I am all for gay rights, and I also live in California.  But I do fear the backlash of this.  I pray to God it doesnt become the dominating force behind some people's presidential choice.

by Sandy1938 2008-05-15 11:20AM | 0 recs
I'm not worried at all

I'm surprised at how non-political the issue is becoming. To quote David Weigel on Reason.com: "The way things are going, Mitt Romney will be leading a pro-gay marriage campaign by 2016 or so."

by Rationalisto 2008-05-15 01:41PM | 0 recs
Re: YES that was the first thing I thought of.....


I'm in Massachusetts. There are two phases of backlash- one of dealing with the concept, which was the nastier one, and it lasted until the actual issuing of marriage licenses.  I think that one is actually over in California- four years since Gavin Newsom's actions, all's been said and vented.

The second phase is when there are pictures on TV and in newspapers of two men in tuxedos or two buxom women, looking a bit unconventional, and captions telling that they're happily married.  That part only lasted a few weeks here-- four, maybe six at most.

Three months after the issuing of licenses here, polls showed what everybody already knew: average people were totally over the novelty of it.  It took a while longer for it become socially comfortable, but the political fuel just went away.

At that point average people didn't back it per se, but they didn't see the point of annulling the marriage licenses either.  Things changed remarkably quickly from 'I feel uncomfortable about it' to 'why not?  Just let them'.

Now the attitude is 'I've met some people like that who are married- they're good people, I don't see why should I be against that.'

by killjoy 2008-05-15 08:55PM | 0 recs
Awesome

Thanks for linking to the decision!

by Slim Tyranny 2008-05-15 09:22AM | 0 recs
Sweet

Makes me want to become gay and get married.

You know, for a second or two.

But seriously, this is good news, even if it comes from one of our most liberal states.

by Dracomicron 2008-05-15 09:23AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage!

I think I really might cry now.

Yup, here are the tears...

by jarhead5536 2008-05-15 09:23AM | 0 recs
I'm with you jarhead. It is very

gratifying to see that, what I never thought would happen in my lifetime, is actually happening. In the slow, inexorable march of history, truth does prevail. Now it's time for a little dustup in my state, Maine. After a 30 year struggle we finally secured protections against discrimination when it comes to work, housing, and public accomadation. We have a domestic partnership registry, and same sex couples can now adopt. After we fend off the fiendish Michael Heath of the Christian Civic League and his attempt to force a referendum to undo all of that, and more, we will push big-time for marriage equality in Maine. Marriage equality - coming soon to a town near you!

by Rumarhazzit 2008-05-15 10:44AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage!

Hooray for equality!

I wouldn't normally say this, but - plz recommend?  It's the most important news of the day by far.

by Lawyerish 2008-05-15 09:26AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage!
i'm sure that for a number of californians (& perhaps americans generally), this is one of the most important news of a lifetime.  :-)
s.
by synth 2008-05-15 09:44AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage!

Like the fall of the Berlin Wall, something I had thought I would not live to see.  My faith in humanity is slowly being restored as time inexorably marches on, sweeping ignorance and hatred aside...

by jarhead5536 2008-05-15 09:53AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage!

I have several professors that I work with here who are absolutely ecstatic - and are planning their weddings!

by Lawyerish 2008-05-15 09:57AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage!

i'm not a lawyer but the language that the court used seems very reminiscent of brown v. board of education, specifically:

that gay individuals and same-sex couples are in some respects "second-class citizens" who may, under the law, be treated differently from, and less favorably than, heterosexual individuals or opposite-sex couples

this is another way of phrasing: separate is inherently unequal, no?  & doesn't this then essentially align the struggle for marriage equality with the civil rights movement?

imo, it is, of course, & i might be reading too much into the language because i already think this.  but it seems like the court is framing this decision in such a way that the scotus, when this is appealed, would have tie themselves up into knots to refute.
s.

by synth 2008-05-15 10:06AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage!

those are probably lifted directly from the briefs

by sepulvedaj3 2008-05-15 10:56AM | 0 recs
Wonderful! I was trying to watch it on CNN,

but someone trapped me on the phone. So excited about this! Another step in the right direction -- a small step, but an important one.

by sricki 2008-05-15 09:27AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage!

:-)

by hornplayer 2008-05-15 09:28AM | 0 recs
The key passage:

From the decision:

[W]e conclude that the purpose underlying differential treatment of opposite-sex and same-sex couples embodied in California's current marriage statutes -- the interest in retaining the traditional and well-established definition of marriage -- cannot properly be viewed as a compelling state interest for purposes of the equal protection clause, or as necessary to serve such an interest.

    A number of factors lead us to this conclusion.  First, the exclusion of same-sex couples from the designation of marriage clearly is not necessary in order to afford full protection to all of the rights and benefits that currently are enjoyed by married opposite-sex couples; permitting same-sex couples access to the designation of marriage will not deprive opposite-sex couples of any rights and will not alter the legal framework of the institution of marriage, because same-sex couples who choose to marry will be subject to the same obligations and duties that currently are imposed on married opposite-sex couples.  Second, retaining the traditional definition of marriage and affording same-sex couples only a separate and differently named family relationship will, as a realistic matter, impose appreciable harm on same-sex couples and their children, because denying such couples access to the familiar and highly favored designation of marriage is likely to cast doubt on whether the official family relationship of same-sex couples enjoys dignity equal to that of opposite-sex couples.  Third, because of the widespread disparagement that gay individuals historically have faced, it is all the more probable that excluding same-sex couples from the legal institution of marriage is likely to be viewed as reflecting an official view that their committed relationships are of lesser stature than the comparable relationships of opposite-sex couples.  Finally, retaining the designation of marriage exclusively for opposite-sex couples and providing only a separate and distinct designation for same-sex couples may well have the effect of perpetuating a more general premise -- now emphatically rejected by this state -- that gay individuals and same-sex couples are in some respects "second-class citizens" who may, under the law, be treated differently from, and less favorably than, heterosexual individuals or opposite-sex couples.  Under these circumstances, we cannot find that retention of the traditional definition of marriage constitutes a compelling state interest.  Accordingly, we conclude that to the extent the current California statutory provisions limit marriage to opposite-sex couples, these statutes are unconstitutional.


by Slim Tyranny 2008-05-15 09:28AM | 0 recs
Re: The key passage:

Thanks - will add to the post.

by Lawyerish 2008-05-15 09:32AM | 0 recs
W00T!

Let the record show that I, a straight white male living on the opposite side of the country from California, just did a little happy dance around my apartment.

by Purplepeople 2008-05-15 09:28AM | 0 recs
Re: W00T!

Can we expect to see that on You Tube soon?  :-)

by Denny Crane 2008-05-15 09:59AM | 0 recs
In this day and age?

It's probably been posted already. ;)

... although considering that I dance like a white straight male from Maryland I wouldn't advise watching it anywhere hysterical laughter would be inappropriate ...

(My apologies to any members of my demographic who actually can dance ;)

by Purplepeople 2008-05-15 10:22AM | 0 recs
Re: In this day and age?

Purple People...  Hmmm...

The B-Side to Spark by Tori Amos?  Or just a coincidence?

by BPK80 2008-05-15 02:12PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage!

This is fantastic news! Hooray for Equality!

Recc'd with enthusiasm!

by dannybauder 2008-05-15 09:28AM | 0 recs
Two down...

...48 to go!  I hope WA will be on this list soon!

by thezzyzx 2008-05-15 09:30AM | 0 recs
Good news

I actually just simultaneously got an e-mail from a friend in CA telling me to watch for a Save the Date!

Looking forward to taking a trip to celebrate her and her partner's nuptials.

by zonk 2008-05-15 09:33AM | 0 recs
Obama's coattails

With an initiative likely on the California ballot this november to amend the state Constitution, I'm afraid of Obama's coattails.  With African-Americans in California in Support of this amendment by a greater than 2:1 margin, any increase in turnout energized by Obama's presidential bid will help the amendment pass.

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollRepo rt.aspx?g=618d0ff4-8b30-4496-90de-5ebd41 c5b320

by DaveOinSF 2008-05-15 09:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's coattails


Dude, it's not all about Messiah Obama.  You guys are getting all culty in 2001 Bush supporter fashion.  Soon you'll fear for his life every time he takes an airplane trip.

He's not much of a supporter of gay marriage legalization, either, so it's nice to see progress despite the social conservatives and centrists that make up his coalition.

by killjoy 2008-05-15 10:08AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's coattails

let's hope the people of california keep their good sense and pass the constitutional amendment.

Democrats, please stand up for traditional moral values.

Also, I don't want the amendment to get caught up in phony debates like,  "if this passes then traditional marriage is somehow threatened".

up or down on the issue.

by yellowdem1129 2008-05-15 10:12AM | 0 recs
You are a homophobic troll.

I am on to you, buddy.  And to think all this time I thought you were one of the good guys.  What the hell are doing on a Democratic site?

by jarhead5536 2008-05-15 12:09PM | 0 recs
Re: You are a homophobic troll.

g You found the one black person on the Internet that prefers Hillary to Obama, and he happens to hate gay rights. Bummer for you, man. :-)

And forgive my hyperbole there :-)

by Aris Katsaris 2008-05-15 01:35PM | 0 recs
Re: You are a homophobic troll.

I am black also (well, half to be honest), and I support Hillary.  Thing is, his attitude re: gays is consistent with the AA community's position and he and I know that.  I just expected that someone cultured and intelligent enough to be a regular blogger would have evolved past such blatant hatred.

by jarhead5536 2008-05-15 01:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's coattails

"traditional moral values" ?

How traditional do you want us to become?

Once upon a time forbidding black people from marrying white people was another "traditional moral value".

If we go even further back, whipping misbehaving slaves was a traditional moral value.

Declaring Independence certainly went against every traditional moral value of obedience to your monarch.

But if we go really back in time, I'll remind you that Jesus bashed adultery (to which he included remarriage after a divorce) but he never bashed homosexuality.

by Aris Katsaris 2008-05-15 01:33PM | 0 recs
This rocks!

Awesome news!!!

by X Stryker 2008-05-15 09:37AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

YEs!!! YES!!! Yes!!!

Thus Gay man can now redraw his future :D

by el mito 2008-05-15 09:42AM | 0 recs
Rec list!

C'mon folks, let's get this up there. :)

by Purplepeople 2008-05-15 09:45AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!
ABOUT FRAKKIN TIME!
48 to go guys!
by iowa dem 2008-05-15 09:52AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

WOWWWWWW!!!!!!

Tears to my eyes....

YES!!!!

by markjay 2008-05-15 09:54AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!


Beautiful.  California drives hard- breaks through the defensive line, goes most of the way... and gets stopped just short of the goal, at the 1-yard line!

But it's enough for 4 new downs!  And lots of time on the clock.

Excellent news.  My expectations of the CSC were a lot lower.  On trend voter support for gay marriage legalization should be just a little under 50% in the state- maybe 48% or so.  This ruling should keep any referendum from succeeding.

by killjoy 2008-05-15 10:03AM | 0 recs
Of relevance to the campaign

this is one of the places we have an actual policy difference between Obama and Clinton.  The Defense of Marriage Act, signed into law by Bill, means states do not have to recognize same sex marriages from other states.

Obama is on record as wanting to repeal the DOMA in its entirety.

Clinton is on record as wanting to make some modifications to the DOMA, but leave that aspect of it in place.

by Rorgg 2008-05-15 10:06AM | 0 recs
Re: I fully expect

not ready for it because it is wrong.

I abhor everyone trying to act as though this is inevitable.

We can make rational choices as a society out of love for our culture and famlies and the desire to do what's right.

It's not a one way street because some people say it is.

by yellowdem1129 2008-05-15 10:13AM | 0 recs
Re: I fully expect

Don't do this.  Don't do this in my diary.

If you disagree with the decision, go away, please.  I don't want to get into an argument, but this equality for all is one of the fundamental pillars of the Democratic party and you SHOULD support today's decision.

by Lawyerish 2008-05-15 10:19AM | 0 recs
Re: I fully expect

oh i see,
you get to celebrate, and please don't interrupt with other opinions, and facts?

I would start a diary but I've already written one today and don't want to be banned.

by yellowdem1129 2008-05-15 10:21AM | 0 recs
Re: I fully expect

You're allowed to write two in one day; go write another one if you are looking to make people angry.

I'm sure you're well aware that nobody is going to agree with you on this issue.  This is a question of equality and nothing more.  Your personal morality should have no more to do with equality then mine does; it's a question of law.

by Lawyerish 2008-05-15 10:25AM | 0 recs
Re: I fully expect

"not ready for it because it is wrong.
I abhor everyone trying to act as though this is inevitable.
We can make rational choices as a society out of love for our culture and famlies and the desire to do what's right.
It's not a one way street because some people say it is."

and then

"please don't interrupt with other opinions, and facts?"

Which, exactly, of these statements is a fact?

by Koan 2008-05-15 11:40AM | 0 recs
Re: I fully expect

Oh, you're gonna be banned alright.  I'm surprised you're still here.

Go away and NEVER come back.

by jarhead5536 2008-05-15 12:10PM | 0 recs
Re: I fully expect
go join the republican party since you are opposed to civil rights. Your candidate McCain
opposed civil rights once so you should feel right at home.
by applecrispbetty 2008-05-15 01:56PM | 0 recs
Re: I fully expect

John Edwards came out against gay marriage.

Should he be expelled?

by switching sides 2008-05-15 10:30PM | 0 recs
Re: I fully expect

Hmm.  This is disappointing coming from a Hillary supporter.

by chinapaulo 2008-05-15 10:46AM | 0 recs
Re: I fully expect

From one Hillary supporter to another, please shut up. I honestly can't believe that anyone would be using right wing talking points to try to counter this. You should be ashamed to call yourself a progressive.

by zcflint05 2008-05-15 11:29AM | 0 recs
Re: I fully expect

So your America should make rational choices to oppose equality, and legislate religious oppression.

Your America sounds like Iran.

by Tumult 2008-05-15 12:26PM | 0 recs
Re: your opinion

I'm on the fence on the subject of gay marriage.  Not really against, but not for, either.

But this is going to kill us in the GE.

by switching sides 2008-05-15 10:28PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

it's not all. People who are in love with their children can't marry each other.

People who are in love with people under 18 can't get married.

3 people who love each other can't get married.

the point is: I disagree with this decision.

I hope Democratic voters in California overturn it.

We the people have a right to define morality as we determine it.

That makes us human.  It is not hateful or bigotry.

If democrats don't stand for common sense, we will lose the majority we are now creating, and we should.

by yellowdem1129 2008-05-15 10:10AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

what does two consenting adults have to do with the things you list? of which you list, I think 3 people should hold the right to "wed".

by alex100 2008-05-15 10:16AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

i think incest is wrong. Do you? Do democratic politicians?

I hope so.

yet, the logic here, by the cal. court and elsewhere is:

if 2 consenting adults are involved it can't be wrong?

no.  
we have a right to maintain moral values and define society as we wish, otherwise there's an argument for almost anything.

for example:

i eat cow meat (beef) it is a living animal that is killed for food.

what if someone says:
i eat cat meat , it is a living animal that is killed for my food.

ok?

no.
we have a right in our culture to determine that it is ok to eat beef and not cats.

I use this example to show you all behavior and choices don't have constitutional protection.

by yellowdem1129 2008-05-15 10:19AM | 0 recs
Re: If someone wants to eat a cat

try winning an election on that one.

try it yourself and wind up in jail.

by yellowdem1129 2008-05-15 10:21AM | 0 recs
Re: I don't eat cats

you, me, and we the people through our elections, through referendums, not courts.

the governor veteod the legislation.

so guess what?

next election that could be a big issue.

It should not be up to 1 vote on a court.

this will set up a circumstance now where the people will be "overturning" a court decision, rather than defining what they want.

I have to go but I will be back later, just in case people think I left because I couldn't answer.
thanks

by yellowdem1129 2008-05-15 10:26AM | 0 recs
Re: I don't eat cats

your argument is logically bankrupt. Courts are completely valid in our society and have been through our nation's history.

but not only that, if our constitution decries freedom to pursue happiness, the courts not only have a say, but they have an obligation to do the RIGHT thing to protect that pursuit of happiness (and freedom). Any and every argument you can make for banning same-sex couples from union can be disposed of easily.

by alex100 2008-05-15 11:39AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

What an insult to gay people and your thinly veiled homophobia comes through loud and clear!..hence the TR

by feliks 2008-05-15 11:16AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

just because I wouldn't do something doesn't make it "wrong" for someone else.

and the cat analogy is lost on me. I'm a vegetarian. I don't care if you eat cat or dog or cow. It's all the same to me. really. I don't look down on meat eaters for catering to the diet they think is "morally" okay.

by alex100 2008-05-15 11:31AM | 0 recs
Re: So

explain to me this:

a grown woman 23 loves her dad as a "lover".  They are consenting adults.

ok with you?

not with me.

I have moral standards that say that is wrong.

yet, it has and will continue to happen, but we don't celebrate it. We don't condone it, we don't make it normal and legal.

There is no way to distinguish legally between incest and  so-called gay"marriage'.

I agree with your mental issue comment, but if i say that about a man who likes other men, I'm hateful.

Yet, i'm not hateful.

In our democratic republic, the people should be able to determine what's right within the constitutions framework.

by yellowdem1129 2008-05-15 10:16AM | 0 recs
Re: So

There is no way to distinguish legally between incest and  so-called gay"marriage'.

What an absolutely stupid thing to say.  You don't know what you're talking about, from both a legal and ethical standpoint.

by Lawyerish 2008-05-15 10:20AM | 0 recs
Re: So

I agree with your mental issue comment, but if i say that about a man who likes other men, I'm hateful.

You're also out of step with mainstream mental health professionals, who removed homosexuality from the DSM in the early 70s.  

The vast majority of mental health professionals (psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, and social workers) do not consider homosexuality to be a mental disorder.

by Captain Bathrobe 2008-05-15 10:45AM | 0 recs
Re: So

You may not think you are hateful. But I think you are retarded. And we the people have the right to call you a retard. It's in the Declaration, you retard.

So, in summary, you are on the wrong side of history. The retarded side.

by Rationalisto 2008-05-15 01:50PM | 0 recs
Your Morals, Not Mine, Not Everyone Else's

With all respect, if you don't agree with gay marriage, isn't the best course of action for you to simply

NOT marry a member of the same sex?

People in the United States have "morals" of all shapes and sizes that vary from person to person.  My understand is that the best way to aspire to one's own moral standards is simply to live up to them, not to force everyone else to do the same.

by BPK80 2008-05-15 02:18PM | 0 recs
Re: So

so you can legally distinguish between incest or a valid marriage between those of the opposite sex, but you can't legally distinguish between incest or a valid marriage between two people of the same sex? I call shenagians!

by Quinton 2008-05-15 03:40PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

We the people have a right to define morality as we determine it

The California legislature -- the elected body representing the people of California -- voted to legalize gay marriage, but the legislation was not signed by Gov. Schwarzenneger, who said that he was awaiting the results of the Supreme Court decision.  I hope and expect that another bill will be passed by the legislature shortly.  They are the elected representatives of the people who, according to you, have a right to define morality.

by markjay 2008-05-15 10:22AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

i don't disagree. but i hope the people vote in a referendum and write common sense marriage laws in the state constitution.

if the people do it, i'll have to accept it.

i won't accept this from a court.

i'll be sad and dissappointed if the people don't overturn this, but i fear eventually they will be cowered by political correctness and the msm to leave it alone.

by yellowdem1129 2008-05-15 10:24AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

Well, I have questions about the extent to which whether the majority should be able to impose their morality on the minority.  (I don't think the majority should have had the right to impose slavery, even if they considered it moral; and I don't think the majority should have had the right to prevent black and whites from marrying each other, even if that had majority support).

That aside, though, my question to you, is (political considerations aside), why in the world would you want to impose your moral opinion on this matter on others?  If you personally don't believe in same-sex marriage, then why not just simply not marry someone of your same sex?  What do you care if somebody else marries somebody of their own sex?  (Don't bring up analogies of eating cats; talk about this issue -- why do you care if somebody else chooses to marry someone they love?)

I could also understand somebody saying, well, I support gay marriage, but this is unfortunate politically at this time.  But you seem to be going further than that.  Why?

by markjay 2008-05-15 10:38AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

I disagree with the whole idea of "gay marriage" because I think society has defined marriage appropriately as 1 man and 1 woman. I agree with that.

Further I disagree with the civil rights terminology because ultimately we are talking about behavior and not people.

We have a right to define behavior right or wrong, that is what culture is.

I use the "cats" analogy because most people eat meat of some type, yet they won't eat  every meat of every type and think that those who do are "inhumane", "crazy", "strange", etc.

I agree with this. This is our culture.  We don't eat dogs or cats, but we do eat cows and pigs.

It's not a constitutional issue, even though it affects people's freedom to eat what they want.

The analogy matters because just because you or I say something and have others agreeing, doesn't make it a civil rights issue.

by yellowdem1129 2008-05-15 11:18AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

It is a civil rights issue.  People who are Gay are Gay, they didn't choose to be that way.  It isn't a question of their behavior.  It is an inherent quality - as much so as your skin color.

The idea that any gay man or woman is only choosing to be that way is highly insulting and not supported by evidence.  It is an opinion generally held by Republicans.  Once again, I state that you are no democrat, sir, if you do not believe in equality for all people.

by Lawyerish 2008-05-15 11:35AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

sorry to tell you this but your analogy sucks. on so many levels.

but i regress, marriage deserves to be redefined. We've finally come to a time in our nation's history that we can start breaking outmoded and hurtful definitions of marriage.

by alex100 2008-05-15 11:44AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

yellodem

You are homophobe and don't belong in this party.

by devoted1 2008-05-15 01:42PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

Uprated to unhide the refutations of yellowdem's post. I disagree completely with yellowdem's argument, but unless the argument is visible, those who think like yellowdem will miss the discussion.

by Black Anus 2008-05-15 02:47PM | 0 recs
ok, good to know

by 4justice 2008-05-15 04:34PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

Uprated to unhide refutation of post, with which I happen to disagree completely.

by Black Anus 2008-05-15 02:50PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

TR'ed for Sam Brownback esque homophobia.

by zcflint05 2008-05-15 11:31AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

Ya know, it's probably best for you to just avoid these discussions.  Post in other threads about other topics where we are on common ground.  I hate trying to stifle debate, but your views are so reactionary that debate is not helpful to anyone, and you end up getting troll-rated.

by Skaje 2008-05-15 11:42AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

You are not even stating facts. There are several states where under 18 folks can get married. Do your homework.

by applecrispbetty 2008-05-15 01:59PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

this is gonna kill us in the GE..

Here come the 'obama in a limo' political ads.

by switching sides 2008-05-15 10:34PM | 0 recs
Re: So

oH YOU are low.

You are very low, and vile.

You should be banned.

by switching sides 2008-05-15 10:31PM | 0 recs
that's great

superb news.

by alex100 2008-05-15 10:15AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

This is awesome!!  My wife and I almost didn't get married because we felt like it was wrong to claim a liberty not extended to all americans.  We eventually caved when we decided to have children and wanted the legal rights that came with marriage.  We felt like creeps for it, and we don't go against our beliefs lightly.  That fact that we chose to illustrates how important this is.

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful!!

Let's hope that it spreads.

On a related, but slightly different topic:

Surveys are showing that a lot of forms of bigotry are the shortcoming of the generation currently in its twilight while the generation ascending to control of government doesn't feel the same.  Sounds great to me.

by lockewasright 2008-05-15 10:21AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

i've been in the same boat for the past 4 years with my girlfriend. I think I'll be caving soon as she's none to happy with the wait.

so much for my ideology. I do get to marry the most amazing person I've ever met though.

by alex100 2008-05-15 11:47AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

I did too.  Works great for me.

Sappy free advice:

Spend your life showing her that you love her, not just telling her.

by lockewasright 2008-05-15 12:03PM | 0 recs
i havent read through the decision

but it looks like they just struck down the law as unconstitutional...

did it actually create gay marriage as well?

by sepulvedaj3 2008-05-15 10:27AM | 0 recs
Re: i havent read through the decision

Gay marriage doesn't have to be created, lol

If it isn't banned, it's legal.

by Lawyerish 2008-05-15 10:30AM | 0 recs
Re: i havent read through the decision

Is that really the case throughout California?  Or does that require some other state or local ruling or decision?

by markjay 2008-05-15 10:40AM | 0 recs
you are right.

the decision gives the plaintiff's the "writ of mandate" (writ of mandamas) to compell the appropriate state officials to enforce the decision.

If they dont enforce (arguably within a reasonable time) then the plaintiff's can file a motion to compell, or a motion to hold those officials in contempt of the decision of the court.

I dont think the decision says "since its not illegal, it must be legal"

Also, there are going to have to be administrative laws dealing with how to hand them out etc.

Plus, the Cali/ government is going to need time to print up new forms (presumably the old ones had husband and wife... but that wont fit anymore).

Then there's all the marriage licenses.  What do those say? Does the language now have to be gender neutral?

It isnt like i can walk up to the courthouse tomorrow to get married.

by sepulvedaj3 2008-05-15 11:06AM | 0 recs
Re: you are right.

Sadly no, but it ain't like they can tell you no anymore either!!  The people who are right won and the people who are wrong lost.  It's time to jump through some hoops, but the Supreme Court of the state of California says the shutting away of that right is not kosher!

I digg it!

by lockewasright 2008-05-15 12:10PM | 0 recs
thankfully

by sepulvedaj3 2008-05-15 12:24PM | 0 recs
well NY court

struck down the "man and woman" statute but said it was up to the legislature to decide what to do next.

by sepulvedaj3 2008-05-15 10:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Right

yes i know - i am also in ny

by sepulvedaj3 2008-05-15 12:26PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

Wow! I thought there was a conservative majoirty on the Cali Supreme Court, but hey this great news.

by bsavage 2008-05-15 10:28AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

There is, really - which is why it was a 4-3 split.

But three Deukmejian/Wilson-appointed justices joined with a Gray Davis-appointed justice to point out that "separate but equal" is not.

by Last Frontier Democrat 2008-05-15 01:07PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

I wish our party had the guts to stop playing defense on this issue!  But this is still a huge win for all Americans who hate bigotry and the fear based politics of gay bashing.  I'm very happy for the people of California, and I hope any gays who want to marry head in from Oregon, Washington, Nevada, Arizona, and wherever else they may be!  

The more gay marriages, the better!  People will see how little it affects anything and, I hope, resistance will fade.

by freedom78 2008-05-15 10:29AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

why, so we could lose? Being for, or being seen as for gay marriage loses the White House, exhibit a: John Kerry. Bush and the GOP implied that Dems and Kerry wanted it, made people believe it, put initiatives on ballots, including Ohio, and won the 2004 election. Kerry didn't come out hard enough against it. That is why a plurality of 2004 voters chose moral values as their issue, and went 80+ percent to Bush. We can't afford that this year. We need to win the White House first, and I'm scared this decision will hurt us in the general election again this year, just like the MA decision cemented Kerry as a "massachusetts liberal"

by DiamondJay 2008-05-15 10:42AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

I didn't mean to imply that it had to be a part of a Presidential candidate's platform.  But, yes, fighting discrimination and legalized bigotry isn't something we should shirk from.  

Fighting at the state level is good, but will only go so far.  Eventually, this will come to the SC, probably in the form of people who were married in one state but denied their rights as a married couple in another.  

by freedom78 2008-05-15 10:56AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

This will likely be appealed to the US Supreme Court. Guess what'll happen there?

by VAAlex 2008-05-15 10:42AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

I'm not a lawyer, but I doubt the U.S. Supreme Court would hear this.  This was in reference to a California referendum.  I think the issue stops here in California.

by markjay 2008-05-15 10:43AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

Wouldn't those appealing have standing on the grounds that it was decided on the equal-protection clause? That's federal territory, I think. Not a lawyer either.

Anyone with knowledge want to chime in?

by VAAlex 2008-05-15 10:47AM | 0 recs
nope
they cant
BECAUSE OF DOMA it cannot be challenged
by sepulvedaj3 2008-05-15 10:59AM | 0 recs
its not only federal territory

federal EP is the baseline.

Each state then start at that baseline, and can expand on it.

The decision does not affect the other states because of DOMA so there isnt any federal repurcussions (other states are not affected).

This is solely a California state issue.

by sepulvedaj3 2008-05-15 11:01AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

It in all likelihood won't be heard by the US Supreme court at all.

Why the negativity, Nancy?  It's a wonderful day!

by Lawyerish 2008-05-15 10:48AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

The Massachusetts supreme court decision was NOT appealed to the supreme court and the movement to overturn it just fizzled out

by feliks 2008-05-15 11:13AM | 0 recs
Why wasnt it appealed?

hmm?

by sepulvedaj3 2008-05-15 12:27PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

It won't.

My understanding is that this decision is based either in whole or in part on the California Constitution, not the U.S. Constitution.  The U.S. Supreme Court has no grounds to review it.

by BPK80 2008-05-15 02:22PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

Top of the Rec List!!!  Wonderful!!!

by markjay 2008-05-15 10:44AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

What great news! Aside from my joy at a decision that comes down squarely on the side of equality and basic human rights, anything that causes pain and anguish for our local whackjob, Fred Phelps, is a good thing in my opinion.

by Not the only Dem in KS 2008-05-15 10:55AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

And cheers to you for caring. San Francisco where I went to school for my sheepskin has a way of teaching tolerance of all kinds--including the weather :) But seriously, Gavin Newsome, a wonderful Democrat who endorsed Hillary, deserves the lion share of credit for this decision. He stood up for civil rights of all Amereicans!!Too bad Obama didn't want to have his picture taken with him.

by linfar 2008-05-15 11:25AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
Thursday, May 15, 2008
Contact: Mayor's Office of Communications,
415-554-6131

Thursday, May 15, 2008

11:15 AM PST
Mayor Newsom to hold media conference call re: California State Supreme
Court ruling on same sex marriage
For Domestic Calls Dial: 800-868-1837
For International Calls Dial: 404-920-6440
The participant code: 956723#
To ask a question, dial #1
The call will be moderated. Space is limited so please be prompt
 calling
in.

12:00 PM
Mayor Newsom, City Attorney Dennis Herrera, and National Center for
 Lesbian
Rights (NCLR) to hold press conference re: California State Supreme
 Court
ruling on same sex marriage
Grand Staircase
Rotunda, City Hall

Giselle Barry
Deputy Director of Communications
Office of the Mayor
City Hall, Room 291
(415) 554-6131
fax: (415) 554-6690

by linfar 2008-05-15 11:26AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

It's great to see us all here, Obama and Clinton partisans, celebrating this momentous day.  From everything I've read, they can't take this to the US Supreme Court due to the nature of the ruling (based on California's constitution).

We just gotta focus on beating back any constitutional amendments that rear their ugly heads in response to this.

And to any Republican who tries to turn this happy day into a bludgeon to beat Democrats with....FUCK YOU.

Marriage equality is here to stay.

by Skaje 2008-05-15 11:46AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

This is wonderful news and something all Democrats should be supporting. Yes some of us love Obama and some Clinton but at the end of the day it really is the ISSUES that matter

by rossinatl 2008-05-15 01:20PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

My partner just told me that I'm running out of excuses and running out of states in which to hide.

Darn.

:)

by Rationalisto 2008-05-15 01:45PM | 0 recs
Love it!

<3's for you.

by BPK80 2008-05-15 02:23PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

That's the next step in equality for me.  I know my girlfriend wants to marry me and is just waiting for me to ask and present the ring (damn they're expensive).  But why can't it work the other way?  In anycase, I've demanded a PS3 when I pop the question, she shouldn't be the only one to get gifts.

by shalca 2008-05-15 03:47PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

Word.

by Rationalisto 2008-05-15 09:20PM | 0 recs
WONDERFUL!!!

This is the kind of stuff that makes me happy to come together.  

But I'm still a Hillary warrior until she says otherwise.

rawr

by BPK80 2008-05-15 02:00PM | 0 recs
In the internet age

progress doesn't come in small steps. It moves in leaps and bounds.

Two very compelling lessons here. The telling judicial commentary in regard to this historic ruling is that six of the seven justices on the CA bench were appointed by Republican governors. Think about what that says about Baby Boomers-- and then move on to what Gen Y are and will be doing.

Also noteworthy is that this legislation began when a single individual-- one politician-- San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom, issued a ruling. Mayor Newsom acted alone based upon what he believed to be right, not what he thought he could get.

Jim Neal
Chapel Hill, NC

by Jim Neal 2008-05-15 02:58PM | 0 recs
Re: In the internet age

I beg to differ.  I believe this result came about from years of work by unknown Californians who made their beliefs known such that it sank into the public consciousness, eventually making up a California supreme court that would rule in this way.  Newsom played a very important part, but even he is the product of growing up in a city and a state filled with ordinary people who slowly but surely were showing the way to justice and equity.  His actions were the culmination of what had gone before and he stood on the shoulders of unknown giants (to coin a phrase) to achieve what he did.

by Montague 2008-05-15 06:48PM | 0 recs
Clinton and Obama

They have both promised to revise the law so that the federal government will have to recognize these marriages as legitimate.  For all of these gay couples in California (and MA and more to come to come), we need to support the nominee to make sure that these couples receive federal benefits.

by psychodrew 2008-05-15 03:59PM | 0 recs
Congratulations California!

... and welcome to the civilized world.

love,
Proud Mass. Liberal

by lilnev 2008-05-15 04:00PM | 0 recs
Would the full faith and credit clause of the

constitution apply here?

Meaning if same-sex marriage is legally recognized in California, through the full faith and credit clause it is also recognize in all states.

I am not a lawyer and i am just asking a question.

by likelihood zero 2008-05-15 04:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Would the full faith and credit clause of the


No, the 1996 federal Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) says that states do not need to recognize SSMs contracted in other states.

DOMA may be in violation of the FF&C Clause, but arguing the FF&CC gets pretty gray zone.  After all, there are various things that one state permits that others don't, and it's hard to outline exactly where to draw the lines.  It's more accurate and practical to argue that DOMA is in violation of the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause.

The best course of action is that Congress and the President repeal DOMA.  And that states pass SSM legalization and/or recognition voluntarily.

Eventually there will be a federal court case against the holdout states, and the Supreme Court will ultimately decide it on whether a permanent-seeming 'national consensus' about definition/redefinition marriage has been reached.  (There is no Constitutional definition of what marriage is to work with.)

by killjoy 2008-05-15 08:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Would the full faith and credit clause of the

Again i am not a lawyer, but i would think if we assume that the act of marriage is basically a contract between 2 people, then as every contract in the US, marriage must benefit from the FF&C clause, am i wrong?

I think if someone challenge DOMA (and i am sure someone will get married in California and will try to seek legal validation in another state) in the SC, i think they can win.

What do you think?

by likelihood zero 2008-05-15 09:27PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

Yay for me!  I can get married in Cali now....I just need a boyfriend LOL

by gorebeatbush2 2008-05-15 05:46PM | 0 recs
I was gonna rec

until the Obama bit.  You should have left that out of this diary entirely.  It wasn't the audacity to or of hope that brought about this ruling - I lived through homophobia times in California - it was the nose-to-the-grindstone work of thousands and thousands of people who drew the strength from within themselves to get this work done, not from an external politician who inspired them.

by Montague 2008-05-15 06:43PM | 0 recs
Re: I was gonna rec

Perhaps you missed this part -

Let that be the lesson for Obama supporters everywhere: it's the hard work that got this decision to go our way, NOT the sense that we were RIGHT. Being right on an issue is only the first step.

I totally agree with you.  

Hope just helps you decide what to work for.

Cheers

by Lawyerish 2008-05-15 09:19PM | 0 recs
Re: I was gonna rec

No, I didn't miss that part.

by Montague 2008-05-16 09:06AM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

Best political news in ages! I'm happy to be a Californian today!!!

by OtherLisa 2008-05-15 08:21PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

please folks,

don't forget jason west, who fought this battle in new paltz.........yes, ultimately he lost....but he did bring it to the spotlight.

by citizendave 2008-05-15 08:31PM | 0 recs
Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

Awesome!!!

And who knows, maybe Reverend Hagge (sp?) will have something really good to say about it.  I'm sure there will be locusts involved.

by Rick in Eugene 2008-05-16 03:00AM | 0 recs

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