Why I Oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, Cordoba House, Park51, whatever you call it

I have nothing against individual Muslims. I believe there is a constitutional right to build a 13 story mosque and Muslim community center 2 blocks from Ground Zero. But just because there is a right to build it, it doesn't mean it IS right, morally. This is the view most Americans have the same view

Siena found 63% of voters oppose the project, compared to 27% who support it

Nearly two-thirds of voters - 64% - think the developers do have a Constitutional right to build the mosque and Muslim community center near Ground Zero, compared to only 28% who say they do not

There is barely a Muslim population in Lower Manhattan, so him building this to serve the Muslim population of lower Manhattan is a joke. Therefore, its size is only going to serve one purpose: being 13 stories and a mosque. There are already 2 other mosques which were built BEFORE September 11 around the area, and not as close to Ground Zero, not within enough distance to pass the mosque coming from one direction and turn your head to see the WTC within a minute.

Second: would you support building a 13 story Serbian Orthodox cultural center in Srebrenica, where Serbs carried out a genocide against Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks)? Would you support an 13 story American cultural center in My Lai, or Abu Ghraib(where not many people actually died) A 13 story German cultural center in Treblinka? A Turkish cultural center/mosque in Armenia? A 13 story Afrikaner cultural center in Sharpville? I think not. And in all cases, not every member of the offending group supported the actions. But enough did to carry out the acts and support those who were acting on behalf of the offending group. But the matter is that why would you remind the victims who live near (or were exterminated near in the case of Treblinka) the very site of an atrocity committed in the name or a nation (religious or ethnic) everyday about the people who did it by building a large building dedicated to them?

Yes there were Muslim victims, including first responders of 9/11, but they were not attacked as Muslims but as Americans whereas the attackers attacked overtly and expressedly as practicing, devout, pure dedicated Muslims AGAINST Americans. And in honesty, the vast majority of 9/11 victims were not Muslim.

Also, in the Middle East and wider Muslim world, the FACT that, yes, Muslims carried 9/11 out is widely questioned!!! The CIA and the Mossad are named by a large number of Muslims, who aren't even in Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Jemaah-Islamiya, etc, as the perpetrators. Also, close to the time attacks happened, Osama Bin Laden was very popular in the Muslim world. Although his popularity has declined, the fact remains that the guy was popular in the Muslim world enough to find support and shelter to plan the attacks AND not be captured, as he is being protected by somebody. So the Muslim world would see a Muslim religious site go up near where members of their community, in its name, carried heinous acts while many Muslims cannot accept the responsibility that even individual Muslims had for this attack. I'm not saying all Muslims are responsible, but there are Muslims who did the acts AS Muslims, who are responsible.

This is very different, than say, "Jewish bankers," like Madoff, who did evil things, but he did not do what he did to serve the Jewish People, nor did he ever say he did, so therefore that horrid analogy doesn't apply.

Also, about the Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf: he purports to be a moderate, and his supporters point to the sensitivity training he gave to soldiers during Bush's term. (IRONIC, HUH?) Well, I have no idea why Bush did this, tho he might have close connections with the Saudis, most likely. But he is a radical, not just for his comments that America was an accessory to 9/11. Tho, some did try to blame us for helping Afghanistan resist Communist Occupation, when personally I think its not that we did that, because some of Afghanistan's current government are Russo-Afghan war vets, its that we didn't push for peacekeepers to go there after the war ended. My problem is with him, obviously, saying that, not admitting that Hamas is a terrorist organization, but also, he has some Huffington Post blogs which came long after his 9/11 comments. Heres some samples:

Rauf on Sharia law

Rauf on Fort Hood

Now notice how in his article about Sharia law,

Islamic law is about God's law, and it is not that far from what we read in the Declaration of Independence about 'the Laws of Nature and Nature's God.' The Declaration says "men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights; that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...The principles behind American secular law are similar to Shariah law - that we protect life, liberty and property, that we provide for the common welfare, that we maintain a certain amount of modesty...Some aspects of this penal code and its laws pertaining to women flow out of the cultural context. The religious imperative is about justice and fairness. If you strive for justice and fairness in the penal code, then you are in keeping with moral imperative of the Shariah.

First off, my biggest problem is his token mention of things like stonings, beheadings, burkas, amputation. But not one paragraph in this article is dedicated to ENDING AT LEAST ONE OF THESE INHUMANE PRACTICES which are enforced by penal code. And then he tries to compare this Sharia to the Declaration of Independence???? ARE YOU SHITTING ME??! This kind of thing is "justice and fairness?" So just that a female rape victim needs 4 male witnesses to prove rape? Stoning for adultery, jail or worse if she takes off her burka so maybe men who will treat her better can see her, if she's in a bad marriage? Amputation for stealing something worth much less than an arm, for which the lesson could be taught by a prison sentence or criminal record which hurts job searches instead? He then says:

The two pieces of unfinished business in Muslim countries are to revise the penal code so that it is responsive to modern realities

So you can tell us how you compare this barbarism to America's pride, but you don't tell us HOW to revise the penal code to fir modern realities? Or maybe the problem is that Sharia, as applied in Muslim countries, IS the penal code, and is prescribed as such in the Quran, Hadith and Sira. Ok, I get that no one wants to violate the Holy Book, but in the West, its done all the time, which is why gay rights, abortion, and divorce are widely legal in the West, and gay marriage is gaining ground in the US and legal in much of Western Europe, and gay marriages done in Cyprus are recognized in Israel. Also, Mr. Rauf, describe the cultural context of Sharia law which you don't condemn.

Lets looks at:

What this unfortunate Army major did was against the laws of Islam, even though news accounts said he was an observant Muslim. It is too early to understand his motivations and mental stability. He obviously was violating his faith when he undertook this act. Killing is as much a sin in Islam as it is in Christianity, Judaism and all the major religions. Taking the law into one's own hands is against Islamic teachings.

We do not know how our soldiers will react under the stresses of war. It is something that we as religious leaders should take seriously as we minister to our troops.

I am concerned that this incident will cause some Americans to react against the Islamic faith and Muslim Americans. Our fellow Americans should understand that every major American Muslim organization has condemned it in no uncertain terms. Thousands of American Muslims serve in the U.S. armed forces, and they are essential to the U.S. goal of bringing peace, stability and democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan. They are supported by millions of American Muslims.

"Take the law into his own hands?" He did not take the law into his own hands, because that means one tries to punish an actual crime when he's not a cop. The people he MURDERED (word is not used once in the piece) were NOT criminals, so he wasn't taking any laws into his own hands, he was breaking laws with his own hands. Also, this is not an acceptable way to crack under the stress of war. It sounds like Rauf is trying to have it both ways: somewhat condemn the act of terrorism but rationalize it. Now he is right that American Muslim soldiers are patriots serving their country and are needed to help us win. But it sounds like he's more concerned with how what people will say about Muslims than about the victims and their families, the effect it will have on the war effort, and the problem with extremism, also another word he fails to use. Also, I see no explicit condemnation on his part about the attack, only those of others.

Also, it MUST be noted that given that, as you saw, many Muslims refuse to believe that individual Muslims carried out the attacks, many also supported the attacks, which is why OBL is was, and still is, so popular in the Middle East, along with Islamist parties in the Muslim world. Also, Islam does have a history of building mosques over sites conquered. This occurred in the Middle Ages and in the dawn of Islam. Islamists would like to return to this glory, the same glory which built the mosque of Cordoba over a visgoth Church in Spain before the reconquista, built the Al-Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount, the Lala Mustafa Pasha Mosque over St. Nicolas Cathedral in Cyprus during the early Ottoman years, Hagia Sophia, the Ummayad Mosque in Syria over the church with John the Baptist's remain's which are still there. Islamists would LOVE to see a mosque on the site where landing gear hit from the 9/11 attack, and symbolically located, with full deliberate intent, by Rauf.  Moderate Muslims see why this is wrong:

"Many Muslims fear that the mosque will become a shrine for Islamists, which would remind Americans of what Muslims did on 9/11,” Dr. Gamal Abd Al-Gawad, director of Al-Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies in Cairo told The Media Line..."Some people express concern that if the mosque will be built, it will harm Muslims and Islam in America. It’s not good for Muslims and Islam to be in the heart of such a controversy..."

Abdul Al-Rashid says:

I cannot imagine that Muslims want a mosque on this particular site, because it will be turned into an arena for promoters of hatred, a symbol of those who committed the crime. At the same time, there are no practicing Muslims in the district who need a place of worship, because it is indeed a commercial district.

Why can't the Park51 supporters see this? Who does Rauf think he is fooling? He is a sympathant for terrorism, who clearly does not give a damn less about those who when down with the towers. There American people are a decent, good people, which is why they, along with myself, agree that there is a constitutional right to build it, but also agree why it isn't right. THIS IS NOT A RELIGIOUS FREEDOM ISSUE. That is a smokescreen excuse to ignore the problems, and pretend that any criticism of Islamic extremism or connection between Islam and the 9/11 attackers is racist, which is ridiculous. The 9/11 terrorists attacked us as Muslims for Islam, as expressed by themselves. They see thru this guy, and so do I. So does Harry Reid, and a majority of Americans in both parties.

The fact is 9/11 attacks were part of radical Islam's problem, which is that it requires Muslims to use their religion politically as justification to conquer opponents and, as they seek, territory to gain caliphate, and create a society based on Sharia law, which Rauf doesn't seem to mind. They do it not just against Israelis or Americans, but in every inhabited continent in the world. Rauf may not be a terrorist, but his political outlook, based on his desire to see Islam as the sole source of societal norms (whereas in the West Christianity is not the sole source of society, hence today's decadent liberal societies) is the attitude which gives Islamic terrorists power. Clearly, it will NOT promote tolerance, as yes, some of the haters are genuine bigots, tho most like me are not, but mostly because of the views of Rauf and his ulterior motives. Also, Islamists would see it as a shrine to their brilliant deeds and to hate on Jews, infidels, etc. Has this promoted tolerance since the brouhaha started? I think not.

Most Muslims are peaceful people, and most mosques don't preach radical jihadism. However, there is a large enough portion that do which gives these groups enough power in the Muslim world to operate and gain support. It is a battle within Islamic civilization, not just Radical Islam vs. the West. I'm not against building mosques simply because they are mosques. But the man behind this mosque symbolizes the battle, via his radical views and deliberate decision to provoke this fight. I cannot accept and ideology and a man who condones and doesn't criticize women being forced into burkas, or stoned for adultery, people beheaded for minor crimes, amputated, lashed, and so on. No one, especially if you call yourself "progressive" should accept a man who believes in this stuff.

I hope the Democrats in Congress see this, and start following the lead of Reid, because Obama has made a big mistake. The Democratic Party is in trouble, and given the truth behind this issue, doing a Bloomberg or Obama on this is asking to lose seats. This is one issue, which unlike immigration, health care, jobs, the economy, abortion, gay marriage, and environment, unites Americans.

 

 

 

Poll

What do you think of the Park51 plan? (we all know they have the right.)

| 14 votes | Results

Tags: Ground Zero Mosque, 9/11, Islamism, terrorism (all tags)

Comments

126 Comments

And so the MyDD resident Islamophobe breaks his silence and speaks.

 

Isn't it wonderful that you can do so. What enables that is something called the Constitution. Why don't you try reading it?

And why don't you shorten this post, as it will encourage people like me actually read beyond the title.

by MainStreet 2010-08-19 10:21AM | 0 recs
Are you really serious?

And why don't you shorten this post, as it will encourage people like me actually read beyond the title.

This coming from someone who, on average, posts 8-10 comments responding to his own diaries. I mean, more often than not, you are the ONLY person who comments on your little articles. I guess you just enjoy talking to yourself.

Get a life, Main Street.

 

by BJJ Fighter 2010-08-19 10:44AM | 1 recs
MainStreet is a huge part of the problem.

he refuses to debate, and loves to be in his own echo chamber. He is a spam troll, and I'm sick and tired of it. He is way to the left of the Dem party on foreign policy, and all he thinks about is Palestinians. He probably lives in a place decked out with punching bags with Israeli flags, a shrine to Arafat, a Sharon clothespin cushion, you name it. His type of Palestinian is why the conflict continues. hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he is someone's payroll.

Mainstreet, will you at least address the merits of the arguments I make? Will you at least explain why you might think Rauf is a moderate given the things he says AND doesn't say? I assume you voted in the poll, explain if and why you think the mosque would be beneficial, please.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-19 11:12AM | 1 recs
RE: MainStreet is a huge part of the problem.
Rage Against Islam: the New Anti-Semitism Recent attacks on Islam in the United States echo old slurs against Jews. August 19, 2010  |
After Abraham Foxman waded into the “Ground Zero Mosque” controversy,opposing plans to construct an Islamic community center a few blocks from the World Trade Center site, the Anti-Defamation League chief was assailed by critics who charged that the ADL was giving license to bigotry and betraying its historic mission “to secure justice and fair treatment to all citizens alike.” A week after initially coming out against the mosque, Foxman announced that the ADL was bowing out of the controversy, but the damage to the group’s reputation had been done.
http://www.alternet.org/story/147899/rage_against_islam%3A_the_new_anti-semitismPoor Foxman. Ran the ADL into the ground by pumping up antiIslamic bigotry. Abe. Stick with the anti-Semitism, then some people might actually believe your sincerity. Can't believe you would ever say that, criticism of Israel forments anti-Semitism. Maybe it is the right wing that is doing the formenting. Poor sucker. Ran a venerable organization into the ground.
by MainStreet 2010-08-20 01:00PM | 0 recs
Al Franken: Conservative Criticism To Mosque 'Disgraceful,' Gingrich Nazi Comparison 'Offensive'

Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) said on Wednesday that conservative criticism of plans to develop a mosque and Islamic community center in close proximity to "Ground Zero" in New York City is "one of the most disgraceful things that I've heard.""I don't know how many of you have been to New York, but if a building is two blocks away from anything, you can't see it," he said, according to the State Journal-Register.

“It’s a community center. They’re going to have a gym. They’re going to have point guards. Muslim point guards,” Franken said, to laughter and applause. “They (Republicans) do this every two years. They try to find a wedge issue, and they try to work it.”

Franken also reportedly called out former House Speaker Newt Gingrich specifically for incendiary comments about the proposed religious center earlier this week. "The most offensive thing I heard was from Newt Gingrich: 'We can't let the Nazis put up a building next to the Holocaust Museum," asserted the Democratic Senator. "That's equating all Muslims with Al Quaida. George W. Bush said Al Quaida is 'a perversion of Islam.'"

by MainStreet 2010-08-19 04:27PM | 0 recs
Franken's a panderer on this issue

he's pandering to the Air America crowd, which is not the mainstream party, or mainstream America. I don't agree with Gingrich either.

I side with Harry Reid on this issue. He's more in touch with America.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-20 03:12PM | 1 recs
Lakrosse, DELETE THIS "HATE" DIARY

You are doing nothing less than causing the spread of hatred toward innocent Muslim-Americans and possibly inspiring acts of violence.

DELETE THIS DIARY AT ONCE.

by MainStreet 2010-08-21 10:11AM | 0 recs
RE: Lakrosse, DELETE THIS "HATE" DIARY

From Open Left:

Fallout of Hate Is Spreading Across America from 9/11 Site

The hysteria over a planned Islamic community center in downtown Manhattan is only the tip of the iceberg, as Joshua Holland (Alternet) reports.

One thing is clear: the feverish discourse about Muslims' role in American society is not about the proposal to build an Islamic community center a couple of blocks from the World Trade Center site. Park 51, as it's being called, merely let an ugly genie out of the bottle. The dark stain of Islamophobia had spread far and wide long before the controversy erupted.

In May, a man walked into the Jacksonville Islamic Center in Northeast Florida during evening prayers and detonated a pipebomb. Fortunately, there were no injuries. (If the man had been Muslim and the House of worship a Christian church, the incident would have garnered wall-to-wall coverage, but while the story got plenty of local press it was ignored by CBS News, Fox, CNN and MSNBC.)

It was the most serious of a series of incidents in which mosques far from the supposedly hallowed earth of Ground Zero have been targeted. A mosque in Miami, Florida, was sprayed with gunfire last year. Mosques have been vandalized or set aflame in Brownstown, Michigan; Nashville, Tennessee; Arlington, Texas (where the mosque was first vandalized and then later targeted by arsonists); Taylor, South Carolina; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; Eugene, Oregon; Cape Girardeau, Missouri; Tempe, Arizona; and in both Northern and Southern California. A mosque in a suburb of Chicago has been vandalized four times in recent years.

In May, an Arab man was brutally beaten in broad daylight in New York by four young men. According to the victim's nephew, "They used the bad word. 'The mother bleeping Muslim, go back to your country.' They started beating him and after that he don't know what happened." A Muslim woman in Chicago was assaulted by another woman who took offense at her headscarf. A Muslim teacher in Florida was sent a white powdery substance in the mail. In San Diego, a man in his 50s became so incensed by the sight of an American of Afghan descent praying that he assaulted him after screaming, "You idiot, you mother f**ker, go back to where you came from."

Read on: http://www.alternet.org/story/...

by MainStreet 2010-08-21 10:17AM | 0 recs
how bout YOU delete YOUR diaries

as your hatred, double standards, delegitimization, and demonization of Israel actually causes anti-Semitic incidents all across the world.

I am not attacking all Muslims, or Islam per se. I am just expressing the views of America, which are correct in saying this is in bad taste and bad faith. I'd love to see you support a 10 story synagogue in Sabra or Shatila

by Lakrosse 2010-08-21 01:02PM | 0 recs
RE: Islamophobia.

Since Islam has a long history of religious tolerance toward Judaism and even Christianity, I don't see this as a problem. By contrast, the lack of tolerance of the Israeli government (not all Israelis) toward Muslim cemeteries in East Jerusalem is just outrageous.

by MainStreet 2010-08-21 01:18PM | 0 recs
not to mention

its not like I'm saying that "all I need to know about Islam I learned on 9/11" or anything. I have nothing against a mosque per se. Just at this location with such a size with the radical imam behind it. I do not condone attacks on innocent Muslims, and I condemn them. Just as you should not condone attacks on innocent Jews around the world when Israel does something u don't like. But u do.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-21 01:04PM | 1 recs
not to mention

its not like I'm saying that "all I need to know about Islam I learned on 9/11" or anything. I have nothing against a mosque per se. Just at this location with such a size with the radical imam behind it. I do not condone attacks on innocent Muslims, and I condemn them. Just as you should not condone attacks on innocent Jews around the world when Israel does something u don't like. But u do.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-21 01:04PM | 1 recs
Even for you, that's a little melodramatic

Good lord......"inspiring acts of violence"???

Dude...most of us enjoy MyDD and find it interesting, occasionally stimulating, and a nice alternative to the loons over at Daily Kos. But it's read by a few dozen people, and that's on a good day. It's not like this is broadcast to thousands and is going to alter mass behavior, or cause riots or something.

Get over it. You take yourself way too seriously.

 

by BJJ Fighter 2010-08-21 05:16PM | 1 recs
Part of the Muslim tradition

is to erect a mosque at the site of what they regard as great victories over their enemies. Hence the reluctance to take this monstrosity to another site in New York.

More troubling is the fact that Imam Rauf won't reveal the source of his funds (over $100 million) to build the mosque. Maybe the ultimate insanity in this whole mess is that Mayor Bloomberg has the time to delve into his citizens' salt intake, but not into the source of funding from radical islamists for this mosque.

This is yet another example of political correctness run amok. Years from now, we will look back on this controversy and wonder, "what were people thinking" when they turned a blind eye to something so dangerous and threatening to our freedoms.

Liberals are always babbling about "sensitivity" and "feeling people's pain", yet in this case they are completely insensitive to the families and loved ones of those who died on 9/11. Even more ironic is that this may be the first time I can remember so many liberals being anxious to protect an organized religion. More often than not, faith and religion are something they sneer at , something that is beneath them. Surely we can all remember those poor, bitter Americans in Pennsylvania, "clinging to their guns and religion...."

 

by BJJ Fighter 2010-08-19 10:34AM | 1 recs
RE: Pure BULLSHIT.

But keep up the comments and maybe we can get this ludicrous diary on the rec list.

by MainStreet 2010-08-19 10:43AM | 0 recs
Matthew Rothschild, Editor, The Progressive re. scapegoats

Dear Progressive Reader:

I’m very worried about where our country’s headed, aren’t you?

The mishegas (as we say in Yiddish) over the so-called Ground Zero mosque has risen to ridiculous heights.

As has the scapegoating of Latin immigrants.

I recently posted something on this: “ Xenophobia Runs Rampant.

And a good friend of mine, Kevin Alexander Gray, just wrote a terrific op-ed for our Progressive Media Project entitled “ 14th Amendment Nullification Threatens Core of Citizenship.” He lays it all out brilliantly.

On a separate subject, I was not taken in by David Petraeus’s PR offensive last weekend. I believe he was just doing the bidding of his commander in chief, who wants wiggle room to stay in Afghanistan. You can read my thoughts on this maneuver here.

War, nativism, a horrible economy, a declining empire. . . . These are toxic ingredients.

Thanks for being an antidote.

Best,

Matthew Rothschild
Editor, The Progressive

by MainStreet 2010-08-19 03:14PM | 0 recs
RE: Part of the Muslim tradition

People of religious faith,in all religions and all over the world, build places of worship wherever they live.

Is it wrond for Christians to build churces anywhere that there didn't use to be Christians (like, all of the Americas,for instance)?

Are you saying that there are no Mosques built anywhere that are for worship instead of statements of conquest?

The fact that you could make such an easily debunked argument suggests that you are not thinking critically and are instead being ruled by emotion.

by jeopardy 2010-08-19 01:15PM | 1 recs
Is it safe to say that the majority of right wing Likudnik Zionists are Islamophobes?

How ironic. Read here from an article by Jeff Halper, founder of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolition (a major tool used by Israel in the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians):

Yesterday, the day before the Muslim holy month of Ramadan began, at 2:30 in the morning, workers sent by the Israeli authorities, protected by dozens of police, destroyed the tombstones in the last portion of the Mamilla cemetery, an historic Muslim burial ground with graves going back to the 7th Century, hitherto left untouched. The government of Israel has always been fully cognizant of the sanctity and historic significance of the site. Already in 1948, when control of the cemetery reverted to Israel, the Israeli Religious Affairs Ministry recognized Mamilla "to be one of the most prominent Muslim cemeteries, where seventy thousand Muslim warriors of [Saladin's] armies are interred along with many Muslim scholars. Israel will always know to protect and respect this site." For all that, and despite (proper) Israeli outrage when Jewish cemeteries are desecrated anywhere in the world, the dismantlement of the Mamilla cemetery has been systematic. In the 1960s "Independence Park" was built over a portion of it; subsequently an urban road was built through it, major electrical cables were laid over graves and a parking lot constructed over yet another piece. Now some 1,500 Muslim graves have been cleared in several nighttime operations to make way for.....a $100 million Museum of Tolerance and Human Dignity, a project of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. (Ironically, Rabbi Marvin Hier, the Wiesenthal Center's Director, appeared on Fox News to express his opposition to the construction of a mosque near Ground Zero in Manhattan, because the site of the 9/11 attack "is a cemetery.")

The irony stems from the fact that, throughout its thousand year history when Jerusalem was known as Al Quds, Muslims like Saladin and the Palestinian inhabitants of Al Quds, always protected the small numbers of Jews that continued to live in Al Quds.

Now the tables are turned, and Jewish Israelis have no problem with wrecking a sacred Muslim cemetary in order to rid Israel of its Palestinian past.

by MainStreet 2010-08-19 10:59AM | 0 recs
what is Al-Quds? Is that a word in English?

because not even in anti-Israel writings do I see that term used. It is JERUSALEM. Jews were there thousands of years before Muslims conquered it and built the dome of the rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque on the Temple Mount to signify their victory.

Oh...Al-Quds is the name the Ottomans used for the city, when it was part of the Caliphate. In the hadith is was called Bayt al-Maqdis.

Also, this isn't about Israel, this Ground Zero Mosque debate. But its not a surprise Islamists like Rauf don't condemn Hamas, want to raise money from Iran, which is illegal here in America, and blames America for September 11.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-19 11:45PM | 1 recs
WTF?

The people practicing their religion there (who have been there for around 35 years, btw) have nothing to do with 9/11.

Not. One. Thing.

 

by jeopardy 2010-08-19 11:36AM | 1 recs
how about the hijackers?

and their ideology, which is Islamism? What is Islamism based off and seeks to do? Rauf's comments and non-comments on Sharia, which has everything to do with Islam?

by Lakrosse 2010-08-19 11:46AM | 1 recs
RE: how about the hijackers?

what about the hijackers?

there are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world.

It is simply not logical to assign some sort of blame or even a connection between 19 people who try to use a religion to carry out a political act and the 1.5 billion people who had nothing to do with that act.

Again, it's actually illogical mathmatically.

by jeopardy 2010-08-19 11:50AM | 1 recs
RE: how about the hijackers?

also, how about the 15 thousand Islamic terrorist attacks all around the world since 9/11, where the perpetrators had the same ideology as the 9/11 attackers? The same ideology which seeks as large a society as possible, thru conversion and murder of non believers, under Sharia law with regards to all personal matters! The motives of the mosque, given the Imam's radical views, are in bad faith. That is a punch in the face to all 9/11 families. Its not Islam per se which is the problem, but how people like the 9/11 hijackers, their supporters (which are millions), and other Islamists practice Islam that is the problem with this mosque.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-19 12:57PM | 1 recs
RE: how about the hijackers?

per Taleb's book "Black Swan", which is basically abount logical fallicies,

Lets say there are 10,000 Islamic Terrorists around the world (a probably much too large estimate). That is still only a very tiny % of the total Muslim population, and it is therefore irrational to consider all Muslims of the same cloth as the terrorists.

Again, it's a logical fallacy.

Some Muslims are terrorists does not equal all Muslims are terrorists.

You provide no evidence, none, zero, nada, that these people had anything whatsoever to do with 9/11.

Do you hold other faiths to the same illogical standard? Is it wrong for Christians to build churches anywhere where Christians committed crimes (say, all of the Americas, the Holy Land because of the Crusades, Spain because of the Inquisition, or really anywhere else in the world)?

But you are not using logic, you are using emotion and so you want to limit the peaceful practice of religion by innocent people.

by jeopardy 2010-08-19 01:11PM | 2 recs
RE: how about the hijackers?

there are the actual terrorists, but I was referring also to the Islamists who give them money, or support their political causes, such as implementing Sharia at every facet of life either in their countries or outside their countries, or who support nuking Israel. People who actively aid the Taliban, or the people who gave aid to Chechen groups, morally, politically, financially. People who don't wanna believe there were Muslim individuals who did 9/11, or people who think that their act was legitimate.

I have said before, and I'll say again: not all Muslims are terrorists, but almost all the world's terrorists are Muslims.

In regard to other faiths: how many Christian groups go around the world blowing up buidings, etc. for Jesus? and don't tell me Iraq, because we're not trying to mass convert them, hell we allowed Islam to be in their constitution. Also, how many churches has the US government built in Iraq/Afghanistan? NONE.

This IS an emotional issue, for the families of 9/11 victims.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-19 01:47PM | 1 recs
RE: how about the hijackers?

hell we allowed Islam to be in their constitution.

OMG We are so totally awesome!

 

Or total pussies?  I mean, like, we actually allowed this?  Imagine the Good Ol' USA allowing Islam to be in the constitution of a Moooslimish country that we invaded liberated!   Pshaw!

 

by January 20 2010-08-19 11:08PM | 1 recs
their constitution didn't have to mention

a religion. The word "Christianity" is nowhere to be found in the US constitution. When we were rebuilding Iraq and Afghanistan, we proved, further than it was, that it was not a "holy war" on our part. Its just that some of you compare America to Radical Jihadists,, like Osama, Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, when thats false, given the fact Afghanistan is an "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan," and that the Iraq constitution says Iraq is part of the Arab and Islamic nations.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-19 11:24PM | 0 recs
RE: their constitution didn't have to mention

"Osama, Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah"

Since when did Hamas or Hezbollah become involved in Al Qaeda politics and terrorism? That's just the point. You are here to disseminate Israeli propaganda as if it were the reality. Hamas and Hezbollah were developed to fight Israel's occupation of Palestinian lands, while it colonized (stole) them. And while doing so, Israel engaged in state terrorism, killing ten times as many Palestinian civilians as the Palestinians killed Israeli civilians, and they did so first, as the history of second Intifada attests.

by MainStreet 2010-08-21 08:52PM | 0 recs
blah. blah. blahhhhhhh.

this isn't an I/P diary. But the fact is Hamas, Hezbollah, OBL, and Al-Qaeda have the same Pan-Islamist goal in mind, and all hate America, Americans, everything we stand for, want to implement Sharia law into all aspects of all lives, and all have used terrorism to try to achieve this goal. Hezbollah has attacked America, in Africa, remember? Hamas has attacked America not simply by attacking its close ally, but by receiving and giving assistance to and from Iran, which gives to the Taliban, who kills our boys fighting terror in Afghanistan. We label, unlike Rauf, Hamas a terrorist group that it is for a reason! Hamas murdered the opposition in Gaza, Hezbollah ferments sectarian violence in Lebanon to its advantage AND has cells around the world, in countries which are not America or Israel/PA or Lebanon.They all want to wipe America and Israel off the map: Ahmadinejad constantly talks about a world without America and wiping Israel off the map.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-21 09:18PM | 1 recs
RE: More garbage.

Saudi Arabia imposes Sharia law on its people. Are you suggesting that Saudi Arabia financed the 9/11 attack?

This is all really stupid. If you want people to believe your garbage you should blog on sites where the intellectual level of blog members is not high. Try FARK.

And speaking of intellectual levels, what can yours be if you actually believe people around here are going to buy into your right wing pro-Israel Islamophobia? I really think that was the main reason Strummerson was embarrassed by you. You supported his views, but he didn't want you to.

by MainStreet 2010-08-19 01:58PM | 0 recs
hahahahah

much of the money that the 9/11 attacks got is from Saudi nationals. The reason Saudi Arabia is the way it is is because in the 1800's, Wahabbism spread and took over much of the people's minds. The Saud family came to power and realized the only way to maintain legitimacy in the eyes of such a people is by kowtowing to their views, which is how they justify being so soft on terror. So yes, while the Saudi family and King Abdullah didn't personally finance, most of the private money came from there. But Al-Qaeda also has large donors in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories, Pakistan, etc.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-19 02:07PM | 1 recs
RE: hahahahah

Once again Lak, you're making up stories. If you have no links to proof, you really ought to shut your mouth, because it sounds like the same old Islamophobia you have been spouting here for years now.

 

by MainStreet 2010-08-20 06:00PM | 0 recs
everything I say is common knowledge

prove what I say wrong. Oh, you can't.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-20 06:42PM | 0 recs
RE: everything I say is common knowledge

EVerything you say is part and parcel of GIYUS talking points to defame people who are Muslims. It is propaganda intended to foster a hate for Islamic peoples.

It is ISLAMOPHOBIA, of which you are well aware. It is pretty much like anti-Semitism.

by MainStreet 2010-08-20 08:55PM | 0 recs
RE: everything I say is common knowledge

so opposing Islamic radicalism is a conspiracy of the Jews? So yea our fight against jihadism was really just a big scam by the Israel cabal to turn opinion against the Palestinians.

 

I don't know what the equivalent of Betty Ford Clinic in your country, but thats where you go if you happen to live in America.

 

by Lakrosse 2010-08-20 09:00PM | 0 recs
RE: how about the hijackers?

15 thousand terrorist attacks?

I suspect this number includes the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.  Where we invaded their country.

You impeach your credibility when you use a ludicrous statistic.

by RickD 2010-08-23 01:56PM | 1 recs
RE: Why I Oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, Cordoba House, Park51, whatever you call it

The poll should have another option:

"It's nobody's damn business if people practice their religion peacefully on their own private property."

by jeopardy 2010-08-19 12:11PM | 1 recs
you didn't read this diary did you.

I explicitly said they have the right to build and worship in it, as do most of the American people, as expressed in the poll I cited.

However, to the victims' family members, given the radical views of the Imam, which represent the ideology of the terrorists, its not hard to see why they would be bothered buiding that kind of mosque purposely near where 3000 died.. Thousands died, which means hundreds of thousands of people are family members, friends, or relatives of 9/11 victims. Telling the victims, as you have, that only 19 people out of 1 billion actively carried the act out doesn't change the fact that these people are never coming back. Plus, thousands of people, by money or shelter, gave aid, comfort, funding, and shelter to the terrorists. No one said, EVER, that all Muslims are terrorist, or that 1 billion Muslims supported the attacks. This is not about that.

I, and millions of other Americans, simply feel that the planners should build elsewhere.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-19 12:30PM | 1 recs
RE: you didn't read this diary did you.

You didn't read my comment, did you?

I said that I think the poll should have another option that fits the situation better than the two options available.

by jeopardy 2010-08-19 01:04PM | 1 recs
horsepuckey

No one said, EVER, that all Muslims are terrorist, or that 1 billion Muslims supported the attacks. This is not about that.

 

Except you just spent most of the diary trying to do just that (i.e. Sharia law, Muslims question whether Muslims did 9/11, etc). You WERE trying to connect the people, and Muslims in general to 9/11. You can't have it both ways.

by jeopardy 2010-08-19 01:48PM | 1 recs
no I was connecting the Imam to the ideology

which brought about 9/11, and poo-poos it. Sharia law was what the 9/11 hijackers and OBL explicitly said they wanted America to live under, as well as strengthen sharia in our Arab allies countries. Not every Muslim supports full sharia law, and many do condemn the evils of it. The Imam, however, has no problem with Sharia. And the Imam, who allows it to be questioned whether Muslims did commit 9/11, is trying to pretend as if Islam had nothing to do with the attack, which is bullshit. he then blamed us for 9/11 more than he did the terrorists. He's having it both ways.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-19 01:53PM | 0 recs
RE: no I was connecting the Imam to the ideology

And you can't support any of this made up stuff.

by MainStreet 2010-08-19 06:00PM | 0 recs
Additionally

This one is to be 2 blocks from Ground Zero. There is already one 4 bloack from it that nobody freaked out about, and there are other "non-desireables" the same distance away as this new one, 2 blocks, like a strip club.

by jeopardy 2010-08-19 01:19PM | 1 recs
the mosques that are already close

a. were built before September 11

b. therefore their location wasn't deliberate

c. are not 13 stories tall

d. the ideology of strip clubs wasn't what made anyone blow up the towers.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-19 01:50PM | 0 recs
From the mouths of babes...

Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, among others, has referred to the area around Ground Zero as “hallowed ground.”

But for Chris, who declined to give her last name, and other dancers at the two strip clubs within three blocks of the World Trade Center site, the neighborhood is just where they go to work.

“I don’t know what the big deal is,” Cassandra said. “It’s freedom of religion, you know?”

Down on Church Street, one block east of the proposed Islamic center and two blocks from Ground Zero, men placed bets on horse racing at an Off-Track Betting facility. One bettor said he could see why the families of victims might get upset about the mosque and community center, but scoffed at the notion that the area around the betting parlor was hallowed ground.

“The bums used to sit right in front of it,” he said of the Park51 location, which would replace a former Burlington Coat Factory store damaged in the terrorist attack.

But if Ground Zero has been made sacred by tragedy, it’s hard to say the same for the Pussycat Lounge one block south of the site. The front entrance of the strip club and bar, which has been there for more than four decades, offers a clear view of the ongoing construction at the World Trade Center site. There weren’t many customers on Wednesday afternoon, when a television reporter stood in the middle of the street filming a report on the Park51 controversy.

Inside, a bartender who said her name was Dasha offered brief remarks against the proposed Islamic center. She said she’s uneasy about organized religion in general.

But Chris, the stripper who volunteered in the Ground Zero recovery, sat on a barstool in a tiny, shiny red dress and defended Park51. “They’re not building a mosque in the World Trade Center,” she pointed out. “It’s all good. You have your synagogues and your churches. And you have a mosque.”

Chris said she lost eight friends on Sept. 11, 2001 — firefighters from the Brooklyn firehouse next to her home at the time. “The people who did it are not going to the mosque,” she said.

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2010/08/19/for-strip-clubs-near-ground-zero-its-business-as-usual-amid-mosque-uproar/

by jeopardy 2010-08-19 10:44PM | 1 recs
sorry, but her voice is outweighed by the overwhelming

opinion of way more friends, relatives, and family members of 9/11 victims, the polls show this.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-19 11:27PM | 1 recs
Which 9-11 families

Not these:

 

http://www.peacefultomorrows.org/article.php?id=977

 

New York – Today, September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows, a nationwide group founded by family members of those killed on 9/11 issued the following statement, which may be attributed to their spokesperson, Donna Marsh O’Connor:

September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows strongly supports efforts to bring an Islamic Cultural Center to lower Manhattan, near the Ground Zero site. We believe that welcoming the Center, which is intended to promote interfaith tolerance and respect, is consistent with fundamental American values of freedom and justice for all.

We believe, too, that this building will serve as an emblem for the rest of the world that Americans stand against violence, intolerance and overt acts of racism and that we recognize that the evil acts of a few must never damn the innocent.

by jsfox 2010-08-24 04:53PM | 1 recs
The GOP is trying to turn the proposed mosque into a campaign issue.

And here we have a right wing Republican getting it on a recommended list on a liberal Democratic blog. Only in America.

by MainStreet 2010-08-19 01:52PM | 0 recs
RE: The GOP is trying to turn the proposed mosque into a campaign issue.

yeah, in a matter of a few weeks, the biggest stories in the Right-wing press were:

1) evil Muslims trying to "conquer" Ground Zero,

2) Evil Hispanics dropping babies for citizenship, and

3) Evil Blacks like Sherrod hurting Whites and setting up Black Panther groups.

See a trend there?

by jeopardy 2010-08-19 01:56PM | 1 recs
RE: The GOP is trying to turn the proposed mosque into a campaign issue.

I support amnesty for all illegals here now, finish the border fence, and oppose deporting illegals except for criminals. I am in shock that the GOP wants to change the 14th amendment, and find it ridiculous. Illegals do the jobs that Americans won't do.

So am I still a "Republican?"

Or do you hold it against me that a majority of Democrats, Republicans, and Indies oppose the Ground Zero Mosque?

by Lakrosse 2010-08-19 02:19PM | 0 recs
RE: The GOP is trying to turn the proposed mosque into a campaign issue.

Well you see, lak, one purpose of our Constitution is to establish our rights and to oppose the tyrany of the majority that would ever seek to abrogate them.

by MainStreet 2010-08-19 03:25PM | 0 recs
well 54% of Democrats oppose the location site.

Why shouldn't the view of the Democratic voters be expressed? Most of us are not extreme left-wing Israel hating America-blaming kooks, and we're not right wing Republicans either. The site says "Users who are excessively bashing the Democratic Party...will be banned." You're off to a good start, not only considering your I/P spam where you post on your own blogs, but you're bashing the position of most of the Dem party voters and calling us right wing Republicans. But then again, you're far to the left of the Dem party.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-19 02:16PM | 1 recs
RE: well 54% of Democrats oppose the location site.

Why do you hate the First Amendment?  Freedom of religion?

by RickD 2010-08-23 01:58PM | 0 recs
I know why you oppose the mosque....

and I didn't even have to read this diary to figure it out.

by Ravi Verma 2010-08-19 02:15PM | 3 recs
RE: I know why you oppose the mosque....

You beat me to it!!

by tarheel74 2010-08-19 04:00PM | 1 recs
RE: I know why you oppose the mosque....

It's pure Islamophobia pretending to be the Democratic position on freedom of religion.

by MainStreet 2010-08-19 06:50PM | 0 recs
well I guess the Democratic position is

"Islamophobic," because a MAJORITY of my party's voters think it shouldn't be at that location. They clearly don't see it as this as a freedom of religion issue, which it is not. 

by Lakrosse 2010-08-19 08:26PM | 1 recs
RE: well I guess the Democratic position is

Who cares what Democrats or Republicans see. Jefferson is the issue here, not a bunch of lakrosse style anti-Islamic bigots.

by MainStreet 2010-08-20 11:07AM | 0 recs
RE: well I guess the Democratic position is

Don't you understand your constitution, Lakrosse. It's there to protect minorities

Historically, a majority of Americans would have objected to a synagogue, Catholic church or Black Baptist chapel being built in their neighbourhood: does that make them right..... As for your odious comparison with Srebrenica - a site of a deliberate massacre of 8,000 men and boys because they were Muslim: a) The town is mainly Serb Orthodox now and b) 9/11 was an attack on multicultural multi denominational New Yorkers, not on one religion.  All I can conclude from this article is that you're still the idiot you were during the primaries - but now you've become a dangerous idiot

by brit 2010-08-20 07:02PM | 1 recs
9/11 was an attack on ALL AMERICANS!!!!!!!!!!!!

the Islamic terrorists tried to kill as many Americans as possible. How dare you claim that just New Yorkers were the victims, and I live in NYC.9/11 was a deliberate massacre of 3000 Americans. The terrorists said their goal was to kill as many Americans as possible, not specifically New Yorkers. How dare you lie about the legacy of September 11.

Why is Srebrenica not majority Bosniak today, like it was in 1991? BECAUSE THERE WAS A GENOCIDE, AND THE REMAINING BOSNIAKS LEFT. Just like there are no Jews who live in Auschwitz, yet the Pope got rid of the convent there there. The fact is remaining Bosniaks would not tolerate a Serbian Orthodox church built near the mass cemetary.

I'm not gonna address your dumb first comment.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-20 07:43PM | 0 recs
RE: Where's Strummerson?

Lak, I hate to say it, but you did much better when Strummerson was nearby to keep your idiocy under control. So where has he gone? Even a right wing Likudnik Zionist like him could not tolerate your ridiculous statements. It was an embarrassment to the Likuds.

by MainStreet 2010-08-20 09:56PM | 0 recs
answer this question:

was 9/11 just an attack specifically on New Yorkers, as Brit says, or an attack on ALL AMERICAN AND AMERICA AS A WHOLE?

 

hint: most Americans, Democrats, Republicans, independents and myself choose one of these options.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-21 01:34AM | 1 recs
RE: Where's Strummerson?

You prove once again that when someone can't win an argument based on merits, they resort to snarky personal attacks. You should just go away.

 

by BJJ Fighter 2010-08-22 11:56AM | 0 recs
It's doesn't mean all Americans

get to decide what does and doesn't get built in Lower Manhattan. All Americans may have been "attacked," but New York City suffered the direct consequences...and we still are.

 

 

by DTOzone 2010-08-21 01:50AM | 2 recs
70% of New Yorkers oppose the Ground Zero Mosque

what do you say about that? I'm not saying all Americans get to "decide" per se, what gets built. No one is calling for federal legislation on this. Also, why does the President get to "decide" if it gets built, given his comment and attempt to make it a religious freedom issue in front of a Muslim audience, but then backtrack the next day?

All Americans "may have been" attacked? All Americans WERE attacked, and there are no quotes around attacked. We all saw 3000 of our countrymen be brutally murdered before our very eyes either on TV or live as those towers fell.

All Americans, however, have a right to express their opinion. It was an attack on us all, and our hallowed ground. The builders have a right to build their 13 mosque/"cultural center" (tho the mosque part will hold more than many mosques combined), but Americans don't feel it is the right thing to do. The builders should listen to their countrymen, if they want to be moral.

Also, we all suffered direct consequences.  Stop belittling September 11.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-21 02:22AM | 0 recs
I say they're wrong

and it's sad that they're so wrong, and I appreaciate the President standing up for what's right, even if he is going to end up on the bad side of this. He didn't have to do it, he probably shouldn't have, and I'm sure some people, like Jerome, would think completely different of the situation had he not.

You know, it has to be said...9/11 was hardly the worst travesty religious fundamentalists ever inflicted on the world. It pales in comparison to the Inquision unleashed on Muslims and Jews in Europe for 300 some odd years. Lets stop making it into a major turning point in world history, because it isn't.

I'm so sick of people using 9/11 to defend whatever boneheaded hateful belief they had. Do you want to be better than them or do you want to play in the mud with them?

And before you start judging me, I lost a friend in 9/11, and I lost a friend to a suicide bomber in Israel years ago, so I'm not immune to this shit. I'm just tired of people who feel the need to stoop to their level.

by DTOzone 2010-08-21 03:31AM | 3 recs
Furthermore Lakrosse

you'd be singing a different tune about public opinion if 70% of Americans thought we should cut off all aid to Israel.

by DTOzone 2010-08-21 03:34AM | 3 recs
I guess it is

and that's sad.

by DTOzone 2010-08-21 01:49AM | 0 recs
I guess it is

and that's sad.

by DTOzone 2010-08-21 01:49AM | 0 recs
RE: Why I Oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, Cordoba House, Park51, whatever you call it

There are already 2 mosques in the neighborhood of the WTC site as well as places of worship for other religious denominations as you would expect in any large American city. Opposing a cultural center of any religion because it's in the vicinity of Ground Zero is morally repugnant and fundamentally un-American. 

Sufi Muslims are targets of both the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. More then 40 were killed in Pakistan recently in a Taliban terrrorist attack. The Imam behind this cultural center would be as dead as those Pakistani Muslims if Al-Qaeda ever gets the close to him. So unlike the armchair warriors who are demonizing Islam and spreading fear and hate this guy is actually risking something to marginalize the extremists. Not adhering to the Likud party line does not make one a terrorist sympathizer even if you are a Muslim. Plenty of Jews and Christians find Neo-Con and Likud policies to be not much different then the thuggery of Muslim extremists.

Cordoba is an appropriate name for the center as for several centuries Islamic Spain represented a period of enlightenment and tolerance unknown in the middle ages where Jewish culture flourished to a greater degree then anywhere in Christian Europe. 

It's sad to see a religious minority being demonized and used to spread fear and hate. But it's not the first time this has happened in history. Next Lakrosse and his friends will be demanding that Muslims wear yellow badges so they can be easily identified (since they are all potential terrorist threats).

by hankg 2010-08-21 07:42AM | 1 recs
RE: Why I Oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, Cordoba House, Park51, whatever you call it

Well said.

by MainStreet 2010-08-21 11:02AM | 0 recs
Eboo Patel says it well

Lemon:  Don't you think it's a bit different considering what happened on 9/11?  And the people have said there's a need for it in Lower Manhattan, so that's why it's being built there.   What about 10, 20 blocks . . . Midtown Manhattan, considering the circumstances behind this?  That's not understandable?

Patel:  In America, we don't tell people based on their race or religion or ethnicity that they are free in this place, but not in that place --

Lemon:  [interrupting] I understand that, but there's always context, Mr. Patel . . . this is an extraordinary circumstance.  You understand that this is very heated.  Many people lost their loved ones on 9/11 --

Patel: Including Muslim Americans who lost their loved ones. . .

Lemon:  Consider the context here.  That's what I'm talking about.

Patel:  I have to tell you that this seems a little like telling black people 50 years ago:  you can sit anywhere on the bus you like - just not in the front.

Lemon:  I think that's apples and oranges - I don't think that black people were behind a Terrorist plot to kill people and drive planes into a building.  That's a completely different circumstance.

Patel:  And American Muslims were not behind the terrorist plot either.

by jeopardy 2010-08-21 01:16PM | 1 recs
RE: Why I Oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, Cordoba House, Park51, whatever you call it

The accusations of Obama being a Muslim, portraying Muslims as a fifth column and Islam as a terrorist, violent religion and the manufactured outrage about the Cordoba House is all to familiar. In another era FDR's more unsavory right wing opponents suggested he was really a Jew, at the same time as they pushed rabid conspiracy theories about Jews being behind the nation's economic ills, in the 19th century Lincoln's bigoted enemies spread rumours he was a Catholic and pushed anti-Catholic hysteria.

Hate and bigotry spread by political hacks smells just as bad now as it did then. I'm sure apologists in Hitlers Germany would have been happy to point out that the majority supported the Nazi's actions against a maligned religious minority. 

by hankg 2010-08-21 01:42PM | 0 recs
Monotheism

Now who is going to protest the rebuilding of St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox church at the actual WTC site?

After all, don't they realize that's the site that monotheists perpetrated the greatest terrorist attack on US soil?

To paraphrase Sam Harris, the claim that the events of September 11, 2001, had “nothing to do with monotheism” is an abject and destabilizing lie.

by jeopardy 2010-08-22 04:54PM | 0 recs
nice try

but the fact it is that Islamists carried out their terrorist jihad in the name of Islam for Islam, per their proclamation.

If a bunch of ultra-evangelical Christians blew up a whole hospital because it had an abortion clinic, and Pat Robertson then tried to build a 13 story church masked behind a cultural center to "bring about the truth on the religious right," you'd oppose it, as would I. Why does anything related to Islam get immunity from criticism?

by Lakrosse 2010-08-23 01:07AM | 0 recs
RE: nice try

If a "bunch of ultra-evangelical Christians" committed a terrorist act, would you then protest the building of any Christian churches? 

by RickD 2010-08-23 02:00PM | 0 recs
RE: nice try

its not about the building per se. Its about who would be behind it. In the hypo that I just posed, even tho Robertson wouldn't be behind it, it would still have been rhetoric like his which drives people to do it. And only someone that audacious would build a very ostentatious imposing structure like that near such a site. Rauf is that audacious and disrespectful.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-23 05:31PM | 0 recs
RE: Monotheism

Sam Harris is an idiot.

by mikes101 2010-08-24 01:05AM | 1 recs
RE: Monotheism

wow, way to add to the discussion......

by jeopardy 2010-08-24 12:52PM | 0 recs
RE: Monotheism

>>To paraphrase Sam Harris, the claim that the events of September 11, 2001, had “nothing to do with monotheism” is an abject and destabilizing lie.

I could also say "the claim that the events had nothing to do with humanity is an abject and destabilizing lie".  But it also had to do with radical Islam - see - and that is more specific, and therefore more meaningful - much more meaningful in this case.  Hence Sam Harris attempting to claim that this is about monotheism is completely missing the point, and is therefore an idiot.  Q.E.D.

by mikes101 2010-08-24 04:13PM | 1 recs
RE: Monotheism

you seemed to have missed the point.

the point is where and why is the scope of who is to blame where the people opposing the project say it is.

 

You could blame the terrorists themselves.

You could blame al-qaida

You could blame certain Muslim Sects

You could blame people from certian Muslim countries

You could blame Islam in general

You could blame Monotheism in general

You could blame religion in general

 

But I have heard no good reason to put the scope of the blame on American muslims or Islam in general and stop it there. 

Why does that make more sense than making the blame more narrow in scope (the terrorists themselves) or wider in scope (monotheism, or religion)?

by jeopardy 2010-08-24 06:17PM | 0 recs
RE: Why I Oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, Cordoba House, Park51, whatever you call it

 

What the hell do Osama and his crew have to do with the Muslims building this center? Sufi Muslims in general and this Imam in particular are as much targets of Al-Qaeda as Jews or Christians. Just because in their twisted minds Al-Qaeda thinks they represent Islam does not in reality make it so any more then the terrorists who blow up abortion clinics or bombed the Ohklahoma Fed building represent Christianity. But in your twisted mind and those of the hate mongers you support you'd like to paint all Muslims and their religion as a threat that needs to contained. An African American walking to work by the anti-mosque demonstration was attacked by demonstrators because they mistook him for a Muslim. By your logic because Bernie Madoff was Jewish being suspicious of Jews in finance is OK and anti-semitism on the part of anyone who lost money on Wall Street would be understandable. Just like you their are hate-mongers who would use Madoff as justification of thier racism. You want to talk about the Quran? Read the Old Testament, brutality, slavery, misogyny and ethnic cleansing. It's all in there but that does not make all followers of the Judeo-Christian religious traditions medieval savages? You are carrying water for the extremists and their message that this really is a war between the west and Islam. That Americans hate Muslims and the Imam and Muslims who preach tolerance and pluralism at risk to their own lives are fools. General Patreaus may as well pack in his winning the hearts and minds campaign right now you as your buddies have effectively killed any chance of success of that now that you have handed our enemies a new weapon to undo everything we have been trying to do.

What the hell do Osama and his crew have to do with the Muslims building this center? Sufi Muslims in general and this Imam in particular are as much targets of Al-Qaeda as Jews or Christians. Just because in their twisted minds Al-Qaeda thinks they represent Islam does not in reality make it so any more then the terrorists who blow up abortion clinics or bombed the Ohklahoma Fed building represent Christianity. But in your twisted mind and those of the hate mongers you support you'd like use the extremist kooks to paint all Muslims and their religion as a threat that needs to contained. An African American walking to work by the anti-mosque demonstration was attacked by demonstrators because they mistook him for a Muslim. All that's missing now are the brown shirts.

By your logic because Bernie Madoff was Jewish being suspicious of Jews in finance is OK and anti-semitism on the part of anyone who lost money on Wall Street would be understandable. Just like you their are hate-mongers who would use Madoff as justification of thier racism. You want to talk about the Quran? Read the Old Testament, brutality, slavery, misogyny and ethnic cleansing. It's all in there but that does not make all modern followers of the Judeo-Christian religious traditions medieval savages?

You are carrying water for the extremists and their message that this really is a war between the west and Islam. That Americans hate Muslims and the Imam and Muslims who preach tolerance and pluralism at risk to their own lives are fools. General Patreaus may as well pack in his winning the hearts and minds campaign right now as you and your buddies have effectively killed any chance of success of that, now that you have handed our enemies a new weapon to undo everything we have been trying to do.

 

by hankg 2010-08-23 07:30AM | 1 recs
RE: Why I Oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, Cordoba House, Park51, whatever you call it

<blockquote>By your logic because Bernie Madoff was Jewish being suspicious of Jews in finance is OK and anti-semitism on the part of anyone who lost money on Wall Street would be understandable. Just like you their are hate-mongers who would use Madoff as justification of thier racism. You want to talk about the Quran? Read the Old Testament, brutality, slavery, misogyny and ethnic cleansing</blockquote> I hope ur kidding. Bernie madoff has never said he cheated people because he was Jewish nor did he say he did it to further Judaism's aims.

Also, no, I won't compare the Koran and Old Testament. In Israel, women aren't forced into burkas, adulterers aren't stoned, rape victims don't need 4 male witnesses But in Muslim countries....

so no, you can't compare. Practice matters.

Your anti-semitism is showing. Or plain retardation.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-23 09:13AM | 0 recs
RE: Why I Oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, Cordoba House, Park51, whatever you call it

 

"In Israel, women aren't forced into burkas, adulterers aren't stoned, rape victims don't need 4 male witnesses" neither are they in the US muslim community. "Bernie madoff has never said he cheated people because he was Jewish nor did he say he did it to further Judaism's aims" What do Osama's delusionary claims about the justification for his actions have to do with American  muslims? nothing at all. Any more then Bernie Maddoff's religion has anything to do with his actions except in the twisted minds of hate mongers similar to yourself. It's the same logic. You continue to make the claim that because Osama is Muslim and this center is Muslim sponsored that that means they are connected. You continue to use examples that have nothing to do with American Muslims to smear them and invent a controversy about a project that should be a non issue. "In Israel, women aren't forced into burkas, adulterers aren't stoned, rape victims don't need 4 male witnesses" neither are they in the US muslim community. "Bernie madoff has never said he cheated people because he was Jewish nor did he say he did it to further Judaism's aims" What do Osama's delusionary claims about the justification for his actions have to do with American  muslims? nothing at all. Any more then Bernie Maddoff's religion has anything to do with his actions except in the twisted minds of hate mongers similar to yourself. It's the same logic. You continue to make the claim that because Osama is Muslim and this center is Muslim sponsored that that means they are connected. You continue to use examples that have nothing to do with American Muslims to smear them and invent a controversy about a project that should be a non issue.

 

by hankg 2010-08-23 09:59AM | 1 recs
RE: Why I Oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, Cordoba House, Park51, whatever you call it

you're a moron. The terrorists and Osama openly said they did it to advance Islam. Did you miss all of OBL's videos?

by Lakrosse 2010-08-23 10:05AM | 1 recs
RE: Why I Oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, Cordoba House, Park51, whatever you call it

the moron is the guy who thinks what osama says should be taken as reality and given any respect.

by hankg 2010-08-23 10:09AM | 1 recs
RE: Why I Oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, Cordoba House, Park51, whatever you call it

Baruch Goldstein massacred muslim worshipers for religious reasons and there were jews who praised his actions. But only a moron would claim that Goldstein's actions and his supporters had anything to do with the Jewish religion as practiced by millions of American Jews. Just like only a moron would use osama's actions to tar American muslims.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

g

by hankg 2010-08-23 10:32AM | 1 recs
RE: Why I Oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, Cordoba House, Park51, whatever you call it

Nobody here is saying that most Muslims are terrorists; however, most terrorists are Muslims. What do you think was going on with the Fort Hood shootings? Or the Times Square bomb plot? Does the name, "Faisal Shahzad" ring a bell with you?

You may want to ignore reality, but fortunately, most people in this country believe that our freedoms are worth defending.....as are our allies, like Israel.

For you to say that this project "should be a non issue" reflects a frightening disconnect with reality. The greatest threat to our country is radical Islam, regardless of what a small intellectual elite may believe. 

 

by BJJ Fighter 2010-08-24 12:31AM | 2 recs
RE: Why I Oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, Cordoba House, Park51, whatever you call it

 

More Americans have been murdered in the USA by right wing terrorists loons in the last 8 years then by Muslim terrorists. Far more. No one is running around with there hair on fire on Fox news screaming about radical Christians though. The biggest threat to the USA today is not external, it is the destruction of our economy and our democracy by the right and the hysteria over this center is part of the problem. There are violent fringe elements in every religion. An Israeli Prime Minister was murdered by a Jewish terrorist. Hindu fanatics have slaughtered 1,000's and there is a virulent violent lunatic fringe right here in the US and they aren't Muslims. Attacking Muslims in the US will do nothing to make this country safer. Demonizing a religion will not make this country safer. It will however strengthen the racist anti-democratic hate-mongers who are attacking Mexicans, Muslims , Gays, etc., to advance their cause. It's not only at Ground Zero but all over the US groups are trying to prevent the construction of Mosques and people who look Muslim are being attacked. This is a racist, bigoted steaming pile of crap cooked up by right wing extremists. When this Center was first announced Fox news and Laura Ingraham spoke of it positively. For years the Bush administration trotted out this Imam as an ally in the fight against terrorism. During appearances in front of students in Egypt he was accused of being an American agent. Suddenly it's a terrorist plot? How easily people are manipulated by the right wing noise machine. This hysteria is more damaging to the US and it's security then was Abu Ghraib.  You don't defend freedom by instituting a pogrom against people because of their religion.

More Americans have been murdered in the USA by right wing terrorists loons in the last 8 years then by Muslim terrorists. Far more. No one is running around with there hair on fire on Fox news screaming about radical Christians though. The biggest threat to the USA today is not external, it is the destruction of our economy and our democracy by the right and the hysteria over this center is part of the problem.

There are violent fringe elements in every religion. An Israeli Prime Minister was murdered by a Jewish terrorist. Hindu fanatics have slaughtered 1,000's and there is a virulent violent lunatic fringe right here in the US and they aren't Muslims. Attacking Muslims in the US will do nothing to make this country safer. Demonizing a religion will not make this country safer. It will however strengthen the racist anti-democratic hate-mongers who are attacking Mexicans, Muslims , Gays, etc., to advance their cause.

It's not only at Ground Zero but all over the US groups are trying to prevent the construction of Mosques and people who look Muslim are being attacked. When this Center was first announced Fox news and wingnut Laura Ingraham spoke of it positively. For years the Bush administration trotted out this Imam as an ally in the fight against terrorism. During appearances in front of students in Egypt he was accused of being an American agent. Suddenly now it's a terrorist plot? How easily people are manipulated by the right wing noise machine. They had most people believing that Saddam was responsible for 911, just because they had people believing it did not make it so.

This hysteria is more damaging to the US and it's security then was Abu Ghraib. You don't defend freedom by instituting a pogrom against people because of their religion. 

 

by hankg 2010-08-24 07:11AM | 1 recs
Building the mosque is stupid

Lakrosse is not against the right to build the mosque.  The American people are not against the right of Muslims to build the mosque anywhere they want.  But for Democrats and the Muslim leaders who plan to build this thing not to realize how colossally stupid and insensitive this looks to the average American voter is difficult to comprehend. 

Also, to most Americans, saying that something is 2 blocks away from something else still makes it *incredibly close*.  Generally the unit of measurement is miles, not city blocks.  90% of us do not live in New York city or in areas of comparable density, and if you want us to understand that this mosque is "far away" from the World Trade Center, you are going to have to do a better job.  A far better job, actually.

But go ahead - call Lakrosse and me "haters of the Constitution" or what have you.  You are missing the point - this is a political issue, not a Constitutional one.  Constitutionally, as Democrats, we all agree that the Muslim group should be ABLE to build this thing.  Most of us also realize that by building it, this group will be showing the American people their insensitivity for 9/11 and its victims.

by mikes101 2010-08-24 12:58AM | 1 recs
the irony is that

Pelosi and other Democrats who support this are out of touch with most of the party: as I showed at the top, 54% of Democrats oppose this. Harry Reid and Howard Dean have condemned this mosque even. The Democratic Party seems to have activists and bloggers who are very, very different from most of its voters.

Not to mention, after work today, I decided to visit the site of the proposed Ground Zero mosque, and it is REALLY close to Ground Zero, hence the name. Two blocks is a matter of feet, at most, and maybe like 1.5 mins, or less walk. If you stand on the northeast corner of Park Place and Church Street, you can actually see both the Hallowed Ground and the proposed mosque site.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-24 02:23AM | 0 recs
Obama and Pelosi ARE the problem

This is showcasing the schism in the Democratic Party: Pelosi and Obama lead a politically correct band of intellectual elites who are out of touch with regular Americans. When Pelosi calls for the investigation of those who oppose the building of the mosque, she only serves to further maginalize the party that she purports to lead. These "leaders" are obsessed with counting the number of settlements being built by Israeli citizens, but seem disinterested by the number of missiles being built by a terrorist state like Iran.

How much more damage can these morons do? They're wrecking our economy, wrecking our standing in the world by projecting weakness, and wrecking our national security. Like many other centrists here, I can't wait for 2012; let's just hope we survive until then.

 

by BJJ Fighter 2010-08-24 11:18AM | 1 recs
ditto

this is a real test for so-called "liberals," as it separates the true-liberals from the leftish-doctrinaire liberals. The true liberals, such as myself, don't give Islam or Muslims a free pass when religious ideology is injected into politics. The doctrinaire ones, like Rosie O'Donnell, Pelosi, the European left, Mainstreet, etc. like to ignore things like 

He should say his administration respects many of the guiding principles of the 1979 revolution—to establish a government that expresses the will of the people; a just government, based on the idea of Vilayet-i-faquih, that establishes the rule of law.

Defending that is worse, in my eyes, than defending the death sentence on Salman Rushdie's head. There is nothing just whatsoever about presidential candidates having to meet approval from the Ayatollah, rigging elections, stoning, all the things Rauf defends or doesn't condemn.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-24 12:26PM | 1 recs
RE: Building the mosque is stupid

Well said; this whole thing is not about "rights", it's about decency.

The tipping point for me came when Gov. Patterson offered to broker a compromise, and even suggested the possibility of state assistance in finding a new location for the mosque. The fact that Imam Rauf chose not to explore this alternative proves that he has a political agenda. He doesn't want just any location; he wants THIS location.

 

by BJJ Fighter 2010-08-24 10:38AM | 1 recs
This is truly sad

1) One of the reasons The Constitution and Bill of Rights exists is to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. So how x percent think or feel is somewhat irrelevant. A majority of people of during our history have thought some pretty stupid and hateful things. This is one of those times. 

2) Let's stop calling Cordoba House something it isn't:  A mosque. It is a Community Center Open to all, not just Muslims.

3) Let's stop calling the Ground Zero Mosques. It isn't. It is a Community Center two blocks away.

4) And finally let's stop giving those that really do hate America ammunition that shows to the world that our values are false and we do not live up to our own ideals. The folks spouting fear and hate are handing Al Qeada a greater victory if this Community Center is stopped.

4) And to those on this site agreeing with this drivel - Shame on you. I expect it from Lakrosse not the rest of you.

by jsfox 2010-08-24 09:11AM | 1 recs
RE: This is truly sad

OMGZZZZ Al Qaeda are gonna hate us more!!! WHAT CAN WE DO TO MAKE THEM LIKE USSSS!!!!!

by Lakrosse 2010-08-24 11:48AM | 0 recs
RE: This is truly sad

OH MY GOD you've convinced me. 

by jsfox 2010-08-24 11:59AM | 1 recs
RE: This is truly sad

I agree with #1.  My opposition to the mosque, and 70% of the country's opposition to it, is somewhat irrelevant.  But I feel that it is also important as a citizen and Constitutionally protected to be able to register your displeasure with what another group is doing.  My freedom to say that this is a stupid, insensitive project is just as important as the freedom of the group to go and build it.

Also, suggesting to build the mosque somewhere else is hardly "the tyranny of the majority".  Perhaps some are taking this much farther than me, but all I'm saying is that this project is incredibly stupid and insensitive - and I'm well within my rights to say so.

by mikes101 2010-08-24 04:00PM | 2 recs
the "offending group" says it all.

There is no "offending group" on whose behalf the 9/11 terrorists acted.  That's tarring all Muslims with the actions of a handful of criminals.  That is the core of the rotten argument made by those who seek to stir up hate against all Muslims.  It's disgraceful.

by Thaddeus 2010-08-24 10:12AM | 0 recs
RE: the "offending group" says it all.

I have yet to hear one single argument for why the community center should not be built that doesn't rest on prejudice.

Unless you are attributing the acts of those terrorists to other Muslims, there is no reason to give a damn whether the thing is built or not.

by jeopardy 2010-08-24 12:58PM | 0 recs
Ah, now the "prejudice card".....not-so-distant cousin of the race card

Each time liberals can't win an argument based on the merits, they do one of three things:

a) play the race card, b) blame George W. Bush, and now, c) play the prejudice card

Lakrosse and numerous others have presented arguments here as to why this mosque should not be built---and not one of them is based on prejudice. Common decency would dictate that Imam Rauf accept Gov. Patterson's very generous offer to compromise, and find an alternative site.

Your charge of "prejudice" is about as ludicrous as Jimmy Carter's charge---back during the health care debate last spring---that opponents of Obamacare were racists. I wondered when he said it if all those who opposed Hillarycare back in 1993 based their oppostion on racism as well.

 

by BJJ Fighter 2010-08-24 02:50PM | 2 recs
the "socialist card" for conservatives,

ie anything that isn't conservative is socialist or communist has an equally dubious equivalent in the race card for some liberals, ie everything that isn't a doctrinaire liberal view is racist.

In reality, both far-leftism and racism are big problems in society. But not everything is based off them.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-24 03:09PM | 0 recs
RE: Ah, now the "prejudice card".....not-so-distant cousin of the race card

also, lets not forget that Islam IS NOT A RACE.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-24 03:41PM | 0 recs
RE: Ah, now the "prejudice card".....not-so-distant cousin of the race card

incorrect.

none of Lakrosse's or anybody elses arguments work unless you connect Islam in general to the terrorist acts.

by jeopardy 2010-08-24 06:12PM | 0 recs
RE: the "offending group" says it all.

I don't REALLY give a damn.  But, if you gave me a choice of another site, I'd pick the other site.  Just like if the US was building a military showcase museum in Japan, and my choices were "Hiroshima" or "some other site", I might be inclined to pick another site.

If the question is whether the building is insensitive, I think the answer is clearly yes.  Now, does my opinion matter?  Maybe not... but at some level politicians and leaders are accountable to the preferences of their constituents.

I guess you could say I am very modestly opposed to this project.  I think probably a good chunk of the US population is in the same boat.

by mikes101 2010-08-24 04:18PM | 1 recs
And a majority

Americans thought Japanese internment was a good idea and interracial marriage should be against the law. Does the fact that a majority feel it's wrong or offend their sensibilities make right? And do a majority think Cordoba House it's wrong because of all the wrong reasons.

 

A) they think it's a mosque, which it clearly is not.

B) They think it is at ground zero, which it is not.

C) They think it is being funded by terrorist groups. Which it is not since it has no funding what so ever at the present time.

D) They have no understanding of the difference between Islamic sects.

 

And let's face it until Geller decided to stir the pot on this no one was even paying attention and thew whole thing could have happened and no one would have cared one bit.

You could have gone to Ground Zero paid your respects and not even know there was a community center two friggin' blocks away.

by jsfox 2010-08-24 04:29PM | 1 recs
it IS a mosque.

There is a place in it designed to hold 2000 to pray to Mecca 5 times a day AND have the Friday sermon. Thats going to be the principle purpose. Also, no one is interning Muslims, so no you cannot compare.

I could give a shit less about Geller or Spencer. I never was a fan of either. But I'm not a fan of Rauf, Hamas, and the far-left either.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-24 04:43PM | 0 recs
RE: it IS a mosque.

So please show me the plans for this space that will hold 2000. Or are you just repeating rumors? Because so far all that has been presented is a rendering of the outside of the building. And on Cordoba House web site it just says prayer space nothing about size or capacity.

by jsfox 2010-08-24 04:50PM | 1 recs
by Lakrosse 2010-08-24 05:03PM | 0 recs
RE: it IS a mosque.

Thank you. Now Every Friday. So you mean there will not be a call to prayer here everyday let alone numerous times a day. Pretty lossy goosey mosque/community center if you ask me.

by jsfox 2010-08-24 05:17PM | 1 recs
no never said that, why are you now

going from defending it to denying there's a mosque there? The website says there is a mosque inside, and a mosque by all definitions has daily prayer.

according to Shafayat Mohamed, imam of the Darul Uloom mosque in Pembroke Pines, Fla. "The main thing that makes a mosque a mosque is the establishment of praying five times a day at that spot," Mohamed said. "If people pray five times per day, then it is considered a regular mosque."

The Cordoba site says there's a mosque, there will b people coming five times a day.

 

by Lakrosse 2010-08-24 07:08PM | 0 recs
RE: And a majority

>>Americans thought Japanese internment was a good idea and interracial marriage should be against the law. Does the fact that a majority feel it's wrong or offend their sensibilities make right?

I'm not suggesting we take away anyone's rights.  Clearly the majority can be in the wrong if it advocates we do so. 

>>And do a majority think Cordoba House it's wrong because of all the wrong reasons.

I think it is a mosque.  I think it is too close to Ground Zero.  And from what I can see, this Rauf guy is questionable - especially since he is not taking community input seriously and has not called out Hamas in previous speeches.  Understanding the difference between Islamic sects is not my problem nor do I claim to be an expert on Islam.

by mikes101 2010-08-24 04:54PM | 2 recs
RE: And a majority

You need to show me another mosque that has: 

  • outstanding recreation spaces and fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court)
  • a 500-seat auditorium
  • a restaurant and culinary school
  • cultural amenities including exhibitions
  • education programs
  • a library, reading room and art studios
  • childcare services
  • a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all
by jsfox 2010-08-24 05:03PM | 1 recs
RE: And a majority

Aren't most religious spaces in the country "open to all"?  I've never been denied entrance to a place of religious worship - anywhere.  And most big religious spaces have things like schools, adult education, athletic facilities, libraries, art stuidos, etc.  My place of worship has all of these things.  Still doesn't change the fact that this is a mosque.

by mikes101 2010-08-24 05:17PM | 1 recs
And who says

you cannot go in to the prayer space? And the rest of the facility is open to all.

by jsfox 2010-08-24 05:38PM | 1 recs
RE: Why I Oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, Cordoba House, Park51, whatever you call it

 

What an idiotic remark. No one cares what Al-Qaeda thinks. But you can bet that American soldiers who are putting their lives on the line care a lot about what the local Muslims they are trying to win over think. While they try and convince Muslims that we are not at war with their religion you serve as the propaganda arm for the Taliban and Al-Qaeda providing them with all the ammunition they need. The extremists can point to an Imam who worked with the FBI, George Bush and the state department, risking his life traveling the mid-east to defend the US and is still a victim to anti-Muslim hysteria and hatred. All the proof they need to advance the propaganda that America hates Muslims and is out to destroy Islam. 

"OMGZZZZ Al Qaeda are gonna hate us more!!! WHAT CAN WE DO TO MAKE THEM LIKE USSSS!!!!!"

What an idiotic remark. No one cares what Al-Qaeda thinks.

But you can bet that American soldiers who are putting their lives on the line care a lot about what the local Muslims they are trying to win over think. While they try and convince Muslims that we are not at war with their religion Lakrosse and friends act as the propaganda arm for the Taliban and Al-Qaeda providing them with all the ammunition they need to undue everything our soldiers on the ground are trying to accomplish.

The extremists can point to an Imam who worked with the FBI, George Bush and the state department, risking his life traveling the mid-east to defend the US and is still a victim to anti-Muslim hysteria and hatred in his own country (USA). All the proof they need to advance the propaganda that America hates Muslims and is out to destroy Islam. Patreaus may as well pack in the hearts and minds strategy and come home.

This has nothing to do with "Liberals" or Nancy Pelosi. Joe Scarborough and Ron Paul have pointed out how shameful this is and neither is a liberal. Bloomberg is no flaming lefty either. Bloomberg said it well:

But if we say that a mosque and community center should not be built near the perimeter of the World Trade Center site, we would compromise our commitment to fighting terror with freedom. 

We would undercut the values and principles that so many heroes died protecting. We would feed the false impressions that some Americans have about Muslims. We would send a signal around the world that Muslim Americans may be equal in the eyes of the law, but separate in the eyes of their countrymen. And we would hand a valuable propaganda tool to terrorist recruiters, who spread the fallacy that America is at war with Islam. 
Islam did not attack the World Trade Center -- Al-Qaeda did. To implicate all of Islam for the actions of a few who twisted a great religion is unfair and un-American. Today we are not at war with Islam -- we are at war with Al-Qaeda and other extremists who hate freedom.

[snip]

The members of our military are men and women at arms -- battling for hearts and minds. And their greatest weapon in that fight is the strength of our American values, which have always inspired people around the world. But if we do not practice here at home what we preach abroad -- if we do not lead by example - we undermine our soldiers. We undermine our foreign policy objectives. And we undermine our national security.

 

by hankg 2010-08-24 08:39PM | 0 recs
RE: Why I Oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, Cordoba House, Park51, whatever you call it

Joe Scarborough works at MSNBC, now the Fox News of the left. Ron Paul is a wacko, indistinguishable from Kucinich on foreign policy and jihadism.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-24 08:42PM | 0 recs
Last word: Bloomberg Launches Another Impassioned Defense Of Cordoba House

"But if we say that a mosque and community center should not be built near the perimeter of the World Trade Center site, we would compromise our commitment to fighting terror with freedom.

We would undercut the values and principles that so many heroes died protecting. We would feed the false impressions that some Americans have about Muslims. We would send a signal around the world that Muslim Americans may be equal in the eyes of the law, but separate in the eyes of their countrymen. And we would hand a valuable propaganda tool to terrorist recruiters, who spread the fallacy that America is at war with Islam.
Islam did not attack the World Trade Center -- Al-Qaeda did. To implicate all of Islam for the actions of a few who twisted a great religion is unfair and un-American. Today we are not at war with Islam -- we are at war with Al-Qaeda and other extremists who hate freedom.

[snip]

The members of our military are men and women at arms -- battling for hearts and minds. And their greatest weapon in that fight is the strength of our American values, which have always inspired people around the world. But if we do not practice here at home what we preach abroad -- if we do not lead by example - we undermine our soldiers. We undermine our foreign policy objectives. And we undermine our national security."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/24/bloomberg-cordoba-house-another-defense_n_693334.html

by MainStreet 2010-08-24 08:52PM | 0 recs
Nicely done, Lakrosse.

I've struggled with myself on this question, but I cannot endorse an Imam who refuses to condemn Hamas, what with its Jew Killing Agenda, or who opposes the two-state solution.

Cheers!

by Karmafish 2010-08-25 01:59AM | 1 recs
RE: Nicely done, Lakrosse.

Rabbi's, Priests, Ministers or Imams don't require any political partisans approval in order to build community centers or religious centers. At least not in America. Adherence to neo-con, Republican or Likud policies is not a pre-requisite to being granted religious freedom.

Be careful what you wish for. The keep America a white Christian country crowd may be after Muslims and Mexicans now but it was not long ago that Jews were their targets and if they are victorious don't think that any religious or racial minority is safe.

by hankg 2010-08-25 05:22AM | 0 recs
RE: Nicely done, Lakrosse.

this has nothing to do with illegal immigrants, not with me. I'm all for all illegals currently here getting amnesty while we finish the border fence. Its about decency and sensitivity for the thousands of victims and their countless relatives, friends and family who were affected irrevoccably on September 11, 2001.

You guys make everything about racism, just as conservatives make everything about communism. You're no better than the ultra conservatives.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-25 11:43AM | 0 recs
RE: Nicely done, Lakrosse.

You selectively decide what issues to side with Hate Groups on: Immigrant bashing No, Muslim bashing, OK.

So a Muslim family visiting Ground Zero to mourn a family member lost in the WTC should disguise themselves so as not to offend the sensibilities of people who wrongly blame them for what happened? 

We need to be sensitive to ignorance and bigotry? Actually the Tea baggers and Fox would like to encourage bigotry and ignorance by making stuff up about this project and the Imam. Glen Beck calls it "Allah-tells-me-to-blow-up-America mosque", Gingrich claims its a triumphalist monument to Jihadist victory on 911, it gets crazier and more virulent from there. This is the same crowd that pushed the Obama is a Muslim crap.

The reality is this Imam worked for the Bush and Obama state department and the FBI advancing the interests of the US and a moderate and modern vision of Islam. The concept for the Cordoba House is modeled on the Jewish 92nd St Y.

Quotes from this Imam before he became controversial as a result of a gined up slander campaign:

Rauf argues that "American democracy is the embodiment of Islam's ideal society."

Rauf, Khan formed organization to "meld Islamic Observance with women's rights and modernity."

RAUF: A century ago or more than a century ago the Chief Mufti in Egypt made a statement which was very well known in the Muslim world and among scholars of Islam even in the West.

 

On a visit to Paris and to France he returned and said that in France I saw Islam but no Muslims and in Egypt I see Muslims with no Islam. It's a very important point for people to understand, both Muslims and non-Muslims.

The reason why Muslims are fleeing many of their societies to countries like Australia, western Europe, United States and Canada is because the societal mandates of an Islamic society and Islamic State is in fact the kind of structure of society that we see in Western societies - the ability of people to participate in issues of governance, issues of the economic wellbeing and economic pie are fundamental to Islamic principles of governance. 

Rauf: "I am a supporter of the State of Israel." The New York Times noted on August 21 that Rauf "is often described as having refused to call Hamas" a "terrorist organization." When asked about the Hamas designation in a radio interview, Rauf stated:

Well, I'm not a politician. ... The issue of terrorism is a very complex question. ... I am a bridge builder. My work is ... I do not want to be placed nor will I accept a position where I am the target of one side or another. My attempt is to see a peace in Israel. ... Targeting of civilians is wrong. It's a sin in our religion, whoever does it. ... I am a supporter of the State of Israel.

Rauf's Cordoba Initiative states on its website: "Hamas is both a political movement and a terrorist organization. Hamas commits atrocious acts of terror. Imam Feisal has forcefully and consistently condemned all forms of terrorism, including those committed by Hamas, as un-Islamic."

Are you required to agree with the Imam's politics or his project? No but you don't in America get veto power over others freedom because of your bigotry and prejudice. This project is both very much in the interests of the US and will be a positive addition to NY.
by hankg 2010-08-25 08:56PM | 0 recs
RE: Nicely done, Lakrosse.

what does being sensible on immigration have to do with the Ground Zero giga-Mosque? Why must one subscribe to being doctrinaire?

Also, when asked person to person in an interview, why didn't he call Hamas a terrorist organization, instead of his staff constantly altering the website?

by Lakrosse 2010-08-25 11:13PM | 0 recs
RE: Nicely done, Lakrosse.

What does it have to do with immigration? Same hate groups behind the "outrage" and driving the movement.

He's made it clear he opposes terrorist violence by Hamas. He however recognizes that like the Irish Republican Army and the Jewish Irgun (or the Likud for that matter) they are also a political force that will have to be engaged in any political resolution.

You may not agree with that, no matter. But as to this IMam and his project being some threat to the USA, nonsense. On the one side we have a Republican and Democratic administration, state department and the FBI on the other Glenn Beck, Fox News and right wing hate groups. WHo has more crdibility?

Ted Olsen a very prominant conservative who lost his wife on 911 spoke out against the hysteria against the center because having been victimized by extremist violence does not make ant-semitism or religious intolerance OK or excusable.

 

by hankg 2010-08-26 05:06AM | 0 recs
I suppose

your position on this would be if the Cordoba House folks would just think of our sensibilities it wouldn't have happened: (just go to the back of the bus and don't rock the boat)

NY Cabby Stabbed for being Muslim

A city cab driver is in the hospital after being stabbed by a passenger who allegedly asked if he was Muslim, police tell NY1. 
Investigators with the New York City Police Department say it all began Monday night when a 21-year-old man hailed a cab at 24th Street and Second Avenue in Manhattan.

Police say the passenger asked the driver, "Are you Muslim?" When the driver said yes the passenger pulled a knife and slashed him in the throat, arm and lip.

The 43-year-old driver was able to lock the passenger in the back of the cab and call 911.

Both the driver and the passenger were taken to Bellevue Hospital.

As of late Tuesday, no charges had been filed.

 

And you need to stop speaking for all 9-11 families because not all think like you . . . thankfully

by jsfox 2010-08-25 11:52AM | 0 recs
RE: I suppose

when are you gonna come out against violence against Jews when Israel does something people don't like?

I hope the culprit gets a nice long jail sentence. What he did was a hate crime. No ifs, ands, or buts. Lets see you guys do that.

by Lakrosse 2010-08-25 11:11PM | 0 recs

Diaries

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