Outside the echo chamber

by Kombiz Lavasany, Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:49:55 PM EST

I also don't feel the need to score points on this one, but I trust numbers. I especially trust numbers more than I trust demagogues. I really like it when numbers pour cold water all over demagogues--Chris

I have an opinion but I'm not sure that we should be out to score political points in the way the far right has decided is necessary. This poll was posted last night on pollingreport.com, and I thought I'd share.

www.pollingreport.com :

ABC News/Washington Post Poll. March 10-13, 2005. N=1,001 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3. Fieldwork by TNS.

"Do you personally have a so-called living will or health care proxy to deal with your wishes for medical treatment if you're unable to do so, or not?"
Yes No Unsure
% % %

42 57 1

"As you may know, a woman in Florida named Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage and has been on life support for 15 years. Doctors say she has no consciousness and her condition is irreversible. Her parents and her husband disagree on whether or not she should be kept on life support. In cases like this who do you think should have final say, the parents or the spouse?" Options rotated

    Parents Spouse Other Neither Unsure
    %     %     %     %     %
    25     65     2     2     6

"If you were in this condition, would you want to be kept alive, or not?"

Kept Alive Not Kept Alive Unsure
%     %     %
8     87     4

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so it goes...

Republicans care about life, but not quality of life.

by johnny longtorso 2005-03-18 11:52AM | 0 recs

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Re: so it goes...

Whats amazing is, how quick the Democrats in Congress fall in line, just because they see strident Republicans. Like Conrad yesterday; of course the ovbious is the right decision here, regardless of the minority fundamentals.

by Jerome Armstrong 2005-03-18 12:19PM | 0 recs

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Re: so it goes...

The best response for Dems is that the Republicans are trying to politicize an internal family issue. I was just schocked when I saw those numbers last night, even the hardcore pro-lifers who make up about 17-19% of the electorate aren't all on board.

by Kombiz Lavasany 2005-03-18 12:24PM | 0 recs

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Re: so it goes...

If it wasn't for ovaries, the Democrats wouldn't have any balls.

I don't even understand it any more. It apparently doesn't make a bit of difference how much public support there is for an issue. If Rush or Hannity squeal loud enough the Democrats all take a dive.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-03-18 12:50PM | 0 recs

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Re: so it goes...

Do you really think they care about life?

I think they couldn't care less.

by bellarose 2005-03-18 01:28PM | 0 recs

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Euthanasia and the Bankruptcy bill

Interesting that the party promulgating the "culture of life" voted unanimously for a bankruptcy bill which offers no financial protection for people like Terri's husband.

Which means, of course, spouses of people in a situation similar to Terri's, who make the choice to continue life, will be held financially responsible for outrageous medical bills once the insurance runs out. And they will be held responsible forever.

So. . .what choice are they offering people? Their own law will ultimately force spouses to quickly opt for euthanasia.

by bellarose 2005-03-18 12:50PM | 0 recs

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Re: Euthanasia and the Bankruptcy bill

An excellent point, although "euthanasia" isn't quite the correct term in this case.

In fact, euthanasia would be preferable, IMO, to waiting for a person to die "naturally" through dehydration. Good thing she has no consciousness and therefore no ability to suffer as a result.

by Mathwiz 2005-03-18 01:15PM | 0 recs

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Re: Euthanasia and the Bankruptcy bill

You're right and I stand corrected. Euthanasia is not the appropriate term.

I know most of society probably isn't ready for this but, if she was my sister, I'd much rather see her go swiftly than have to passively wait through her drawn-out, inevitable end.

by bellarose 2005-03-18 01:27PM | 0 recs

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How about torture?

I'm not entirely sure that torture isn't the correct expression for what they are doing to Terry. That is if there were any consciousness left.

I don't understand these people at all. They get all holier than thou over the most atrocious, demeaning, vile and un-Christian values.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-03-18 02:19PM | 0 recs

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Re: Euthanasia and the Bankruptcy bill

From TPM guest blogger:

This is a case of the brain dead subpoenaing the brain dead.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-03-18 02:31PM | 0 recs

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Re: Euthanasia and the Bankruptcy bill

As has been observed, Terri Schiavo has been kept alive through the proceeds of a medical malpractice suit that was filed after she became in a persistent vegetative state. It is my understanding that the money has about run out. The same Republicans screaming about keeping her alive want to stop malpractice suits, or at least cap the very damages that are keeping her alive. They also want to cut funds for Medicaid, what would keep her alive when the money runs out.

They are truly people that don't think about, or are not willing to accept, the consequences of what they do.

It is not that hard to do a "living will." In California the Medical Association has a form that is available on line. Having been through this with my father, I cannot urge too strongly that people get such a document, and discuss with their family what they want before it is too late. When you have to make a difficult decision, it is a great comfort to know that you are doing what the person wanted you to do. Hospice services can be very helpful as well.

by Mimikatz 2005-03-18 03:52PM | 0 recs

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Isn't it obvious?

They're forcing them to send all of their money - plus some - to wealthy creditors.

Quite clever, really.

by Drew 2005-03-18 07:49PM | 0 recs

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Of course we should politicize this issue

If you can't politicize an issue you have 87% support on, what the hell are you in politics for? The GOPers are politicizing it with 13% support and absolutely vile ethical standards to back their position.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-03-18 12:52PM | 0 recs

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Re: Of course we should politicize this issue

Heh, I knew you'd disagree, that's why I hid it in the diaries.

In all seriousness I'm not sure there's much to say besides that the right has for some reason decided to demagouge a private issue, one which most americans disagree with them about.

by Kombiz Lavasany 2005-03-18 01:16PM | 0 recs

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Re: Of course we should politicize this issue

They are doing this for a reason. Any time there is this much consensus among the wingnuts, you can bet your bottom dollar that there is a think tank method to their madness.

Look for a soap opera appearance on national television if this subpoena thing flies. I'm almost looking forward to it. I hope they get some long continuous close ups of the dead husk sitting in a chair in front of a micro-phone.

I think over 87% of Americans will be disgusted unless the GOPers are allowed by the media and the spineless Dems to stage manage and choreograph the entire thing.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-03-18 02:22PM | 0 recs

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Re: Of course we should politicize this issue

I believe their next step will be to go after Living Wills and HEPAs.

Next thing you know, the state and only the state, will be making these life and death decisions for the rest of us.

by bellarose 2005-03-18 03:56PM | 0 recs

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Re: Of course we should politicize this issue

This is not a "think tank" issue as much as it is throwing a bone to the religious conservatives. Better yet, as a "life issue" it's one where they can get evangelicals and Catholics on board at the same time.

87% of Americans may be disgusted, but how many of them will actually pull the lever one way or another on this issue? Very few. 13% of Americans support what is going on. How many of them will actually pull the lever on this issue? Considerably more.

This is how the majority of people can agree with Democratic positions down the line and the Republicans can still win elections.

by wayward 2005-03-19 02:58AM | 0 recs

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Notice republicans are taking Peggy Noonan serious

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110006442

I think democrats should be quick counter punchers

on this, because republicans have to blame somebody...now the so called southern baptist
republican judge is a dyed in wool liberal..we
need to counter punch,but at the same times
preach the merits of a living will. Might slip
in there as well church taxation to pay for
the Teri Schiavos of the world.

Counter punch on Bush with Karla Faye Tucker
Paul Begala did that today and I thought he
was effective.

Anyway also heart sick over that 9 year old
girl...we need to come down hard on why was
this guy not accounted for in the criminal
justice system..and death penalty for this guy
yes I said the death penalty for this guy.

by Aslanspal 2005-03-18 03:32PM | 0 recs

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There You Go Again! Using Numbers To Hide!

To hide from the inescapable truth that the Democrats are doomed to be a minority party till the end of time.

Haven't you read your Criag Farmer?

Don't you believe Joe Lieberman?

Can't you understand the New Republic?

Just because 87% of the people agree with you, doesn't mean you're out of touch with the mainstream.

See, they just trust their gut. That means they're just like Bush.

You're looking at numbers. That's so French!

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-03-18 04:02PM | 0 recs

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Re: There You Go Again! Using Numbers To Hide!

It's not quite so simple.

Republicans take these unpopular positions to win over single-issue voters. 87% of the electorate may think this is crazy, but they don't care about it enough to vote that way in the voting booth. The other 13% is more likely to. Gun control is similar. I believe 80% of Americans support the assault weapons ban, but the other 20% is more of a force at the ballot box because they care and the 80% doesn't. More people are pro-choice than pro-life, yet people who vote based on the abortion issue alone vote 2-1 pro-life.

The Republican strategy is to divide America as much as possible on every single issue, then take the bigger half. The Democrats have come up with no effectives strategy to counter it.

by wayward 2005-03-19 03:04AM | 0 recs

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Re: There You Go Again! Using Numbers To Hide!

Ummmmm. Yes, that was my point.

The GOP rules from an extreme minority position, while the DLC types keep bashing us for being outside the mainstream. And others here tell us it's a mistake to focus on mobilizing our base because there aren't enough of us.

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-03-19 04:13AM | 0 recs

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living will

Do you believe that 42% of americans polled actually do have a living will or proxy? Maybe they were confused or thought it would sound better, i.e lied. I know I'm thinking about getting one soon. I really don't want congress deciding what measures to take to keep me alive.

by ruralvoter 2005-03-18 05:27PM | 0 recs