BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that he was Right

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The recent comments made by Barack Obama to an audience of well-monied, San Francisco bundlers and maxed out donors is yet another sign that the junior senator from Illinois is not nearly as smart or seasoned a pol as his followers and admirers were led to believe -- or would have us believe.

To use a sports analogy, Obama just committed an unforced error. And it was a big one.

It's humorous watching Obama and Obamaites in the media trying to spin this problem away by CLINGING to the idea that this is about whether people are bitter or not.

Sorry no, the same "rubes" that Obama has clearly showed he looks down on, arent so simple. They know how deeply insulting Obama was to them, thier culture, thier deepes beliefs.

As Rev. Wright would say, "NO, NO,NO...we're still in bible country here..."

Unlike the candidate's erudite speech on race, (which was designed to sanitize the mentally filthy Reverend Wright in our collective imagination), these comments need not a delicate sifting through of worthwhile thought to find itty-bitty bits of bad. It's just a stupid statement. Period. And now he's goes on and on to defend it

Yes, people do tightly clutch what they have in times when things all around them are being lost. (both residents of rural America and big time urban, hyper ambitous politicans)And yes, there is the tendency toward vesting one's hopes in remote and unseen gods to "get through the day." But the American people aren't clinging to their guns and gods because they are bitter. That is decidedly his argument, and he is wrong.

People cling to their guns and gods because they like them, know them and have a stated right to do so. In good times as well as bad, you will find small town Americans praying and shooting. They like to hunt and they like to believe an enormous universal intelligence is watching over them. They are not bitter. And unlike Obama (who "clings" to his own nutty religious institution) they are not cynical. Most joined their churches because they believe, not because it will get them votes on the South Side of Chicago.

Small town Americans may very well be a little more frightened these days, and rightfully so, but they are, pointedly, not bitter.

Read EX Obama sympatizer Michal Goodwin in today's NY Daily News:  Snob-ama slight a big-time error

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics /2008/04/13/2008-04-13_snobama_slight_a_ bigtime_error.html

Having grown up in one of those small Pennsylvania towns Sen. Barack Obama sneers at, I know what really makes people there "bitter." It's slick-talking politicians who look down on their beliefs and values.

Small-town people get doubly "bitter" when those pols have the gall to ask for their votes while demeaning their lives. See, even hicks don't like being played for suckers.

When they accused Obama of being out of touch for saying small-towners "cling to guns or religion" out of frustration, Sens. Hillary Clinton and John McCain were too kind.

Snob-ama is not just out of touch. He's from another planet.

He might consider going back there, because the White House now looks out of reach.

Snob-ama's lame concession yesterday that his mistake was "I didn't say it as well as I should have" only makes the repeated smear worse. He should get off his Ivy League horse and apologize to the millions of Americans he insulted. As it stands, he has confirmed he doesn't understand or respect them.

Through his warped vision, if you own a gun, oppose gay marriage or want our nation's borders sealed, you're just bitter over your lousy job. Amazingly, he even sees the embrace of God as a reaction to the bad economy.

As gaffes go, they don't get much bigger. Then again, it's not a gaffe when you believe what you're saying, as Snob-ama clearly does.

The trouble started when the Chicago Democrat, after saying Washington had failed to stem the tide of lost jobs, dropped a bombshell on his fellow Americans by saying: "And it's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

In one sentence, Snob-ama de-legitimized every choice people in America are free to make. It's arrogance on steroids, fueled by a secular, elitist view of middle America as filled with ignorant red-necks.

Turn his screed around and it comes out this way: If the hicks had good jobs, they wouldn't need God or guns. Then the borders could be wide open for the enlightened world to come here 'cause our hate would vanish.

Such a dark view of heartland hearts is not very Christian and suggests Snob-ama really did hear the rants of his pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright. The mentor who led him to Jesus Christ seems a bitter man who wraps his hate for America in the trappings of religion.

If Wright's typical of religious people, God help us. Thankfully, he's not. For the people I grew up with, faith is about salvation and at least trying to love thy neighbors, even as they gossip about them. For many, faith begets hope, charity, hard work and patriotism.

They don't "cling" to faith as a bitter reaction to immigrants or free trade, as Snob-ama uncharitably put it.

Lets get real.

Bill Clinton's first mention of the incident came last night at a Legion Hall in Jacksonville, N.C.

>

"Yesterday, Hillary's opponent got into a little bit of trouble by making some comment -- you may have seen it," the former president said. "But the thing that has got me is one more time their side alleged that there was really not much difference how working people fared under me and under the Bush administration. Now if you believe that, I urge you to vote against Hillary."

>

A must read new Politico piece lays out the reality of what the Clinton campaign believes but won,t say.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/040 8/9564.html

Why, ask many media commentators, won't Hillary Rodham Clinton see the long odds against her, put her own ambitions aside, and gracefully embrace Barack Obama as the inevitable Democratic nominee?

Here is why: She and Bill Clinton both devoutly believe that Obama's likely victory is a disaster-in-waiting. Naïve Democrats just don't see it. And a timid, pro-Obama press corps won't tell the story.

But Hillary Clinton won't tell it, either.

A lot of coverage of the Clinton campaign supposes them to be in kitchen-sink mode--hurling every pot and pan, no matter the damage this might do to Obama as the likely Democratic nominee in the fall.

In fact, the Democratic race has not been especially rough by historical standards. What's more, our conversations with Democrats who speak to the Clintons make plain that their public comments are only the palest version of what they really believe: That if Obama is the nominee a likely Democratic victory would turn to a near-certain defeat.

Far from a no-holds-barred affair, the Democratic contest has been an exercise in self-censorship.

Rip off the duct tape and here is what they would say: Obama has serious problems with Jewish voters (goodbye Florida), working class whites (goodbye Ohio) and Hispanics (goodbye, New Mexico.)

Republicans will also ruthlessly exploit openings that Clinton--in the genteel confines of an intra-party contest--never could. Top targets: Obama's radioactive personal associations, his liberal ideology, his exotic life story, his coolly academic and elitist style

This view has been an article of faith among Clinton advisers for months, but it got powerful new affirmation last week with Obama's clumsy ruminations about why "bitter" small-town voters turn to guns and God.

....one argument seems indisputably true: Obama is on the brink of the Democratic nomination without having had to confront head-on the evidence about his general election challenges.

That is why some friends describe Clinton as seeing herself on a mission to save Democrats from themselves. Her candidacy may be a long shot, but no one should expect she will end it unless or until every last door has been shut.

Skepticism about Obama's general election prospects extends beyond Clinton backers. We spoke to unaffiliated Democratic lawmakers, veteran lobbyists, and campaign operatives who believe the rush of enthusiasm for Obama's charisma and fresh face has inhibited sober appraisals of his potential weaknesses.

The concerns revolve around two themes.

The first is based on the campaign so far. If the voting patterns evident in many states in nomination voting continued into the fall they would leave Obama vulnerable if McCain can approximate the traditional GOP performance in key states.

The second is based on fear about the campaign ahead.

But all this was in a Democratic contest. What about about when Obama's running against a Republican?

Let's take the first point: Obama's electoral coalition. His impressive success to date comes predominately from strong support among upscale, college-educated whites and overwhelming support from African-Americans.

But there is reason to question whether he would be able to perform at average levels with other main pillars of the traditional Democratic coalition: blue-collar whites, Jews and Hispanics.

Obama lost the Jewish vote by double-digits in the battleground state of Florida--where this constituency looms large--and that was before controversy over the anti-Israel remarks of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

He won only about one-third of Hispanic votes on Super Tuesday - and did even worse a month later in Texas. A Democratic nominee needs big margins with Hispanics to win states like New Mexico, California, Colorado and Arizona. In the fall, Obama would be running against a Republican with a record on immigration that will resonate with Hispanics.

Then there's the lower-income white vote. Does it seem odd that a woman with a polarizing reputation would be rolling up enormous margins among some of the country's most traditional voters? Three out of every four blue-collar whites in small-towns and rural areas of Ohio voted for Clinton over Obama on March 4.
Fair enough. But McCain would be challenging Obama on a range of issues that would complicate this coming together---issues that Clinton did not use or used minimally because they would not be particularly effective.

McCain, by contrast, would have a free hand to exploit a paper trail showing Obama's evolution---opponents would say reversals--over the past decade from liberal positions on gun control, the death penalty, and Middle East politics. He would exploit Obama's current position in favor of driver's licenses for illegal immigrants and beginning diplomatic talks with U.S. adversaries like the dictators of Iran and Venezuala. Will those issues help lower-income white voters "come back together" with Obama?

Those issues are all in-bounds.

What about the issues that most journalists and probably McCain himself will consider out-of-bounds but that, if recent history is any guide, will echo nonetheless in the general election?

The last two Democratic nominees, Al Gore and John F. Kerry, were both military veterans, and both had been familiar, highly successful figures in national politics for more than two decades by the time they ran.

Both men lost control of their public images to the right-wing freak show--that network of operatives and commentators working mostly outside of the mainstream media--and ultimately lost their elections as many voters came to see them as exotic, elitist, out-of-touch, phony, and even unpatriotic.

Obama is a much less familiar figure than Kerry or Gore, with a life story that is far more exotic, who is coming out of a political milieu in Chicago politics that is far more liberal.

The freak show has already signaled its early lines of attack on Obama. Many Americans already believe---falsely--that he is a Muslim. Voter interviews already reveal widespread unease with minor and seemingly irrelevant questions like why he does not favor American flag pins on his lapel. Nor does it seem likely that voters have heard the last about Jeremiah Wright.

Obama's advisors said they are not naïve about freak show politics. Their response is that Obama's appeal to a new brand of politics, and his personal poise and self-confidence, will allow him to transcend attacks and caricatures in ways that Gore and Kerry could not.

Obama is indeed poised and self-confident. But the current uproar over his impromptu sociology lesson in San Francisco about "bitter" voters in Pennsylvania raise questions about his self-discipline, and his understanding of how easy it is for a politician in modern politics to lose control of his public image.

Clinton has her own baggage, to put it mildly. But it's been rummaged through for years, so what Democrats see is pretty much what they would get.

The frustration and even anger emananating from the Clintonites comes from being unable to say in public what they think in private.

Little wonder why. Bill Clinton's comments comparing Obama's support in South Carolina to Jesse Jackson's may have been rude and they were certainly impolitic. But it's absurd to contend, as many Democrats indignantly do, that they amounted to a shocking low blow or to "playing the race card."

The reaction underscored the essential prissiness of the Democratic contest so far. One can be sure the general election will not be such a delicate affair.

Tags: BITTERGATE, Pa, Snob-ama obama (all tags)

Comments

48 Comments

Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

Oh Lord help us, we have another idiotic nickname to contend with....

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-13 07:15AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

I read that story on politico and I have to say, I agree with it.

a lot of young voters don't realize what happened in the 1980's and the losses we dems endured.

Bill Clinton gave us 2 terms of a successful democratic presidency because he was able to work with republicans in the senate - he knew what battles to pick & choose.

The smearing of BC because his wife is running for president by "democrats" is, well, unprecedented.

and to hear the GOP talking points against Hillary by "democrats" is unprecedented and yet, somehow it is Hillary who is league with the GOP (according to some "democrats")?

un-freaking-believable.

by colebiancardi 2008-04-13 07:17AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

you say the "smearing of BC because his wife is running for President" is unprecendented...

Well, gee, when has there been a time in our history when the spouse of a former President has run for President...?  When has there been a time when a Democratic candidate for President has had to defend himself or herself from criticism from a former Democratic President...

In short, everything is unprecedented...

But...  I have to take my strongest issue with the notion made by you that it is somehow only Hillary that is getting hit by GOP tactics...  The use of GOP and Right-wing sources on this very blog in a calculated attempt to smear Senator Obama means that, by your measure, Clinton supporters too are Democrats that deserve quotation marks around the word...

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-13 07:22AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

well, we know that Obama runs on the "Democrat for a Day" theme, so that is why the words "democrats" was quoted.

and yes, Obama could restrain himself from smearing the last successful 2 term Democratic president.

as well as his supporters.  But they can't help themselves, obviously.

by colebiancardi 2008-04-13 07:24AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

I have said since January that BC was overplaying his role in his advocacy for his wife...  Why?  Well, gee, what if she doesn't get the nomination...?  Would it not be helpful to have a popular former two term Democratic President out on he stump for the nominee...?  Given his criticisms of Obama, how disingenuous will that sound?  No Democratic candidate should ever have to play defense against a Democratic President.  

Obama supporters do not own a patent on smearing popular Democrats by the way... Read posts from Clinton supporters regarding Kennedy and Richardson endorsing Obama... obviously, Clinton supporters cannot help themselves either.

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-13 07:28AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

I don't have any issues with Kennedy endorsing Obama , nor Richardson.

however, since Obama is running for president, his behavior to lumping BC with GWB is shameful, to say the least.

by colebiancardi 2008-04-13 07:30AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

you have no problem with it...  That same cannot be said for other Clinton supporters..

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-13 07:39AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

again, did Hillary attack Kennedy or Richardson personally?

no, she did not.

Obama attacked BC personally.

there is a difference.  Supporters and surrogates are attacking everyone, but look at the candidates and see who is doing the smearing.

by colebiancardi 2008-04-13 07:41AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

What makes you Clinton supporters think that the crucial swing voters, want the Clintons back in the White House. It was those voters who lost us Congress in 94', and you could say, because of, Clinton fatigue.

by lion king 2008-04-13 08:21AM | 0 recs
Re: because
If that's the case, and that's the issue you think they will vote on, well then we have nothing to worry about, they'll vote Dem. in the G.E. and this "crisis" will have meant NOTHING.
Glad we can all agree on that.
by lion king 2008-04-13 08:37AM | 0 recs
I don't agree that looking at right wing

sources is a calculated attempt to smear Barack Obama.

I actually take a look to see what the other side is saying, suggesting, planning and "thinking".

A couple of times I have seen an issue/diary raised here that was immediately shot down from discussion just because it had right wing source fingerprints on the basis used for discussion.

I am concerned about these issues in the Fall.  Not that Dems will raise them but that others will and Senator Obama will not have any answers.

I hear a lot of talk about Clinton giving us President McCain.  The same worry can be said about Senator Obama.

Now is the time to look and listen and plan.  Even if it means listening to things we don't like.

by CoyoteCreek 2008-04-13 07:37AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

Nothing has shocked me in this campaign...  well, that's not true...  the use of Right wing sources, a la "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" when it comes to sourcing stories here is a bit shocking...  It is helpful to remember that the enemy of your enemy will likely turn out to be your enemy soon enough...  

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-13 07:30AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

Obama is honest and describes things the way they are and Hillary and her supporters attack him. This just shows that Hillary is fake, just like John Kerry was fake and George W. Bush was fake (my god, clearing brush - give me a break!).  Americans are tired of fakes running for office.  

Think for a minute, do you honestly disagree with what Obama said about rural America - or do you simply think he shouldn't have said it because it's bad politics?

The reality is that rural America is full of gun toting religious wack jobs who are bitter and frustrated.  Ignoring that reality is not going to make it go way.  Just like George W. Bush before her, Hillary is trying to get elected by playing to people's ignorance whereas Obama is asking people to address issues honestly and think.  Look at the "education gap" - Hillary is intentionally exploiting the ignorance of her supporters by dumbing down the discussion of issues in this campaign.  

Obama is the only candidate in this race who is willing to tell the truth about the state of America - that's why he's going to win.  
 

by ruskin 2008-04-13 07:23AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

Obama is the only candidate in this race who is willing to tell the truth about the state of America - that's why he's going to win.

Yeah, sure, and what is that supposed "truth" he's been telling?

That voters in small town America are deluded fools whose most basic values are crutches they turn to only because they are desperate in their bitterness.

I'm sure he can put together a winning coalition around that idea. All the rubes of the country have to do is recognize the general worthlessness and irrelevance of their values and lives, as the Great One has beneficently chosen to explain it to them.

If the little people would simply acknowledge how little they are, there would finally come into being all the unity this country would ever need. And the Great One stands above us all to lead us to the better selves we should hope for, if only we can assemble the humility to cast off our old, confused, and feckless lives.

by frankly0 2008-04-13 07:58AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

Yes, if only you could!

by lion king 2008-04-13 08:40AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

"The reality is that rural America is full of gun toting religious wack jobs who are bitter and frustrated.  "

really?   that is the reality here?  

If that is the reality, lets just pack it up then right now and McCain will be the next president.

by colebiancardi 2008-04-13 07:25AM | 0 recs
The worst

Once again, another DINO finds it appropriate to lie, distort, and generally ignore reality to denigrate the Democratic nominee.  Nice job Redstate.

While acknowledging a couple of key facts,

Yes, people do tightly clutch what they have in times when things all around them are being lost.
yes, there is the tendency toward vesting one's hopes in remote and unseen gods to "get through the day."
you substitute your personal interpretation of what people feel when "all is lost" or the need something to "get through the day".  Are they bitter about the government breaking its promises and repeatedly letting them down?  You're damned right they are; and quoting the NY Post as a reputable source to the contrary does absolutely nothing for your credibility.

Read Obama's entire speech.  Examine the context.  What he said is damned straight and dead on true.  You and others who want to split this party and do the Republican dirty work disgust me.

by rb608 2008-04-13 07:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Redstate?

Oh BS.  Here's what he said:

You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, a lot of them -- like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they've gone through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.
There's nothing in there that compares the Bush & Clinton presidencies.  It's nothing but an acknowledgment that a lot of small towns have had eroding employment problems that were not fuuly solved by either administration; and that is not a comparison, that is a fact.

So go ahead, spin it any way you want.  You may allege my interpretation is parsing, but I'm saying your interpretation is a lie.

by rb608 2008-04-13 11:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Context?????

Yeah, context.  That means read the whole speech and understand the totality of his message, not just the single sentence the Redstaters want to highlight.

by rb608 2008-04-13 11:24AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

oh please hillary use gop talking points against obama all the tgime, deal with it

by nj49ers83 2008-04-13 07:26AM | 0 recs
Good job showing some reality

for those folks who are reality-impaired.

Snobama is a good name, whether he is or not, that is exactly how it comes off.

These problems, and his vulnerability in the GE, are the main reasons he wanted HRC to drop out. He became the "inevitable" personality, and then snobbily responded "my attitude is that HRC can run as long as she wants".

Obama's attitude is not one I appreciate at all, and neither will millions of people.  Voters will choose McCain over Obama because again at least we know where McCain stands. Same with Clinton.  We don't know the ultimate contours of an obama presidency because all he has talked about is hope.

His campaign is also a study in arrogance--thinking he can whip up excitement and just ride the wave.  He doesn't explain his positions to us ordinary Americans, I guess because we're too unsophisticated to understand them.

All I know about Obama is his willingness to throw many, many people, including his supporters, under the bus.  That is his track record.

by 4justice 2008-04-13 07:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Good job showing some reality

If you have no idea where Obama stands on policy after some 18 debates and countless pieces in the media explaining his policy stances, then you are willfully ignoring them...  

And no, it is not a good name.  No more than Hillbot is a good name...  It is juvenile and silly.

His campaign is not a study in arrogance...  it has bee fairly masterful.  That he, a single term Senator is steps away from securing the nomination is fairly stunning...  A year ago, everyone else was running for cabinet positions under Hillary's Presidency...  and now, here we are...

All you know about Obama is all you want to know...  you already dislike him, so any information that bears that out as the right opinion is all you pay attention to.

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-13 07:38AM | 0 recs
what an arrogant response

you can't take away these aspects of Obama's campaign, his positions, etc, assuming you know what I have researched and what I have not.

No, you're not paying attention, and the arrogance  you display is just like your candidate "dissing" anyone with an opinion that is not yours.

Keep shooting yourself and your candidate in the foot--it seems to be working.

by 4justice 2008-04-13 07:45AM | 0 recs
Re: what an arrogant response

I call bullshit...  you yourself said you didn't know his policy positions...  I you don't know what they are is is because you do not want to.

I am not shooting myself in the foot...  I'm voting Democratic in November... and while the GOP may liken that to shooting myself in the foot, I think it is for the betterment of the country.

I know the policy stances of all three candidates.  I am intellectually curious that way... if that makes me arrogant, so be it.

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-13 08:05AM | 0 recs
Re: from new york magazine

ah yes...  nothing like taking the words of an anonymous source as gospel....

Personally, I hope Edwards doesn't endorse either candidate... I have seen what happens in the blogosphere to those that do...

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-13 10:01AM | 0 recs
Re: what an arrogant response

4justice, why such "concern" for Obama supporeters? We know he said something stupid, big deal we'll get over it, but you guys just can't let it go. I know it's a good opening for Clinton, but why are you trying to come off like you're concerned for the entire electorate? The entire electorate does not vote in Dem. Pres nominating contests.

by lion king 2008-04-13 08:57AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that

this site is insane, hillary calls obama elitist which is amusing considering who hillary is, its gop talking points, obama does everything wrong but hillary is perfect according to this site

by nj49ers83 2008-04-13 07:29AM | 0 recs
Obama was right

having spent years in interviews and polling data - Obama, without a doubt, is right about wedge issues being seen as the be-all-end-all for a lot of voters.  Rather it is support of Israel to bring about the second coming.  Guns for defense against the Government.  Or, Gays destroying the institution of family... I say this as a kid from Huntsville Texas, so don't call me elitist, or a snob.

These issues people cling do have been the bread and butter of the Republicans for some time.  When economic hard times or political anomie (after 9/11) come religious expression becomes more evangelical, more political, and more hateful.  For instance, in these communities, more persons under 45 (those who report high economic hardship) believe the rapture is soon to come than those over 65 (who have a higher economic stability rate).  That is the rapture becomes more common as a belief as you get younger in rural America.  That has terrible political outcomes.

Sometimes a truth is hard to hear, but that does not make it more or less true.  And, Obama was simply saying something that was true.  He is going to have a hard time with rural voters because of them have fused their religious beliefs with their political beliefs.  It is rather disingenuous to attack his remarks here, unless you think the Politicians should not say what is true.  As Clinton's response has been completely inaccurate to the fact.

Btw. before you defend small town America too much... You have to admit a lot of persons there are rather backward.  I mean 27% of people in small-town America believe in Monsters.

by CardBoard 2008-04-13 07:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama was right

"Btw. before you defend small town America too much... You have to admit a lot of persons there are rather backward.  I mean 27% of people in small-town America believe in Monsters."

and what about the percentage of people who believe that AIDS was created by the US to kill the black man?

come on....

by colebiancardi 2008-04-13 07:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama was right

I don't have those stats... but I imagine they are pretty close to the number of people who believe Tuskegee never occurred.

by CardBoard 2008-04-13 07:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama was right

Tuskegee occurred and there aren't a lot of people who do not believe in that.

However, the US gov't didn't infect black men with syphilis, nor was it trying to kill all blacks in the US.

BC was the first president to apologize for the Tuskegee experiments to the remaining survivors.

btw, 30% of AA's believe that it is possible that the US gov't could have created AIDS in order to wipe out blacks.  10% of AA's believe it is absolutely true.

by colebiancardi 2008-04-13 08:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama was right

My point was that believing that the U.S. Government spread AIDS is not an insane belief, by any means, especially in the wake of Tuskegee

by CardBoard 2008-04-13 08:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama was right

again, it is insane, because the US gov't didn't INFECT anyone.

it was horrific what they did - deny treatment and tell lies to the men involved - but they didn't infect the men with syphilis and it wasn't widescale

by colebiancardi 2008-04-13 01:16PM | 0 recs
Perhaps I should be clearer

that I study sociology of religion, with a focus on religion in American Political beliefs, for a living.

by CardBoard 2008-04-13 07:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Perhaps I should be clearer

cardboard...this is no snark...how do you make a living studying something like this?  

by jentwisl 2008-04-13 08:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Perhaps I should be clearer

academics gets you into funny things... I live off of grants and hopes of getting published, but it is a pretty big field if you think about it.  There are a lot or people involved in Religion and Public Life at various schools

by CardBoard 2008-04-13 08:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama was right

You're right about them being the bread and butter of the Repug party.....THE REPUG PARTY. These are NOT democrats you talking about. the guns, god, and gays, issues have never resonated with DEMOCRATIC voters. Why you fear for the Reagan Democrat votes is beyond me. They are LONG gone. And what is all this FEAR about the big bad Repugs that goes on here. Fear is based in weakness and by all measures America is sick of the Republicans, 80% by the last measure.

by lion king 2008-04-13 08:14AM | 0 recs
Re: amazing

Gee Grendel, how could ANYONE know who is going to win or not? And it's not who I alone want as our nominee, it's the VOTERS who get to decide who our nominee is. Or don't you believe in Democracy anymore?

by lion king 2008-04-13 08:51AM | 0 recs
Re: amazing

Grendel, in the real world we can not know the future with ANY certainty. You may believe in fairy tales but I believe in Democracy and the will of the people. It is up to the majority of the voters who will decide. Voters get to decide if Hillary WILL win. As my state has already voted I have supported my candidate in the only measurable way we can, I voted for him.

by lion king 2008-04-13 09:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama was right

But since when did "anti-trade sentiment" become equivalent to socially conservative "God, guns, and gays" wedge issues? There is a perfectly legitimate case to be made against globalization and trade liberalization from a progressive viewpoint, and in fact Obama makes this case himself when he in front of certain crowds, but sings a different tune in front of others. That's why some of us see Obama as anything but the avatar of truth that supporters like you do.

Btw. before you defend small town America too much... You have to admit a lot of persons there are rather backward.  I mean 27% of people in small-town America believe in Monsters.

That's a confusing statistic -- depending on how you define the term, there certainly are monsters. And I'm sure that Samantha Power would agree.

by Inky 2008-04-13 08:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama was right

I don't remember the qualifier on the Monster question, but am pretty sure Clinton would not have met the requirements, it is just a number I remember from the Baylor Study on Religion last year.  And, whenever I'm talking to somebody who is really ignorant I remind my self that 1/4 people believe in Monsters - so don't expect too much.

I don't think many people on the policy level are "anti-trade" (save Lou Dobbs)... it is how you do trade that matters.  However, the reason that a lot of Americans are "anti-trade" is that they are anti-foreign, afraid of foreigners... this belief is the core of what leads to hate of Muslims, Anti-Asian opinions being the newly most explicit racism, and (on a more positive side) the religious tokenization of African poverty.  

Many people are anti-trade because they are anti-foreign.  It is pretty obvious that Obama is talking about non talking about Ross Perot non-traders but "Freedom Fries" non-traders.

by CardBoard 2008-04-13 09:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama was right

I wasn't associating free trade with wedge issues, but rater pointing out why some of us see CLINTON "as anything but the avatar of truth that supporters like you do".

by lion king 2008-04-13 09:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama was right

You weren't associating free trade with wedge issues, but Obama was:

You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them... And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Those who hold "anti-trade sentiments" are people who oppose the evisceration of our manufacturing base by means of FTAs that never provide sufficient protections for workers' rights or the environment. These people are not irrational and they are certainly not all social conservatives (despite what Goolsbee and others may say). We've had global trade for centuries, and no one has a problem with that. But many people oppose this headlong rush towards turbo-charged globalized capital, which has the twin effects of increasing economic inequality and destroying the environment whereever it is encouraged.

But it's pretty darn clear that Obama has one way of discussing trade when he's in front of well-heeled donors and a completely different way of discussing the issue when he is in front of working people. And  that bothers the hell out of me, especially when he and his campaign constantly rip into Hillary for her inconsistencies on NAFTA, when she was merely supporting (in a rather tepid manner) her husband's initiative at a time when his administration was under heavy fire and was trying to score a legislative "victory." Not that I'm trustful of Hillary's position on trade, but she does appear to me to be, if anything, at least slightly better than Obama on this issue.

by Inky 2008-04-13 10:22AM | 0 recs
BitterGate: The Clintons, Country Manor

Oh the Glee H.C. supporters are feeling now. This is almost as good as the Wright smear campaign. But alas, like Wright, which you said would sink him, this to will pass away. But fasten your seat belts, you all are in for a bumpy ride yourselves. With knowledge that both Bill and Penn were working FOR the Columbians, and Hillary's stance Against, the Columbian trade deal, the media is running with this story of hypocrisy. And don't forget Nancy Pelosi has the power to bring this trade deal up for a vote at any time, thus further embarassing Hillary. Guess it wasn't such a good idea to attack her after all!

by lion king 2008-04-13 08:32AM | 0 recs
Wright is going nowhere

Totally agree!  Wright has not and will not go away and if Obama gets the Denocratic nod, the Republicans will have a field day with him and his close relationship with the Obama family.

Train wreck coming....

by The Smoldering Crone 2008-04-13 10:09AM | 0 recs
Snob-ama CLINGS to the Idea that he was Right

No matter how many times his campaign trys to spin it, Obama trashed the heart and soul of America, because even if you live in a big city now, chances are yhou came from a small town and you remember it with fondness and oftentimes love.

by linfar 2008-04-13 09:02AM | 0 recs
SNOB

I "cling to" my religion out of my faith in God...but an elitist SNOBama wouldn't understand!!

by JoeySky18 2008-04-13 10:59AM | 0 recs
Re: BITTERGATE: Snob-ama CLINGS

Grendel, I'd like permission to use your graphic, if I may.  My email address is on my user page.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com

by Caro 2008-04-13 11:34AM | 0 recs

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