John Edwards is Done, But He Doesn't Know It Yet

Cross-posted at http://francislholland.blogspot.com/

I have been warned that I may be banned from MYDD.COM for expressing this opinion. Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting http://francislholland.blogspot.com/2007/02/banned-from-myddcom.html If so, see the warning and read more opinions like this one at my new Francis L. Holland Blog, http://francislholland.blogspot.com/2007/02/banned-from-myddcom.html

John Edwards, along with Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, says that America needs national health care.  However, John Edwards has made the immense tactical mistake of proposing new taxes to get there.  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2007/02/04/AR2007020400892_ 2.html?sub=AR As a result, now the anti-tax Republicans AND Independents would spend just as much money to defeat Edwards' tax increases as they would to defeat Hillary's womanhood.  Just as Reagan beat Mondale in 1984, a Republican with a "no new taxes" pledge would beat Edwards like an old rug in the 2008 General Election.  Seeing this clearly, Democrats will refuse to nominate Edwards, because even among Democrats new taxes are not that popular.

During [an] interview, Edwards also gave some new details of his plan for universal health care, a plan that he said would require new taxes.

He said he would propose spending $90 billion to $120 billion a year to expand Medicaid, provide subsidies for people who lack coverage, ask employers to take on additional coverage needs, and establish what he called "health markets" around the country to create some efficiencies.

"Yes, we will have to raise taxes," Edwards said. That would start, he added, by repealing the tax cuts introduced by President Bush during his first term.   http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2007/02/04/AR2007020400892_ 2.html?sub=AR

Ever since the anti-tax revolt of the 1980's in which Reagan was elected twice on a "no new taxes" pledge, every presidential candidate who has promised to raise taxes has been defeated.  Bill Clinton was careful to run on a pledge of "middle-class tax cuts", while suggesting specific taxes that should raised to pay for that and other costs.  But Clinton never said, in a way that could be characterized as a blanket premise, that Americans' taxes were too low.  Clinton made it clear, at every turn, in his every inflection, that only the rich would pay more.

Isn't it worth it to raise taxes to achieve national health care?  The problem is this:  If a candidate promises new taxes, the electorate has no trouble believing that new taxes will result from electing that candidate. But when the same candidate promises national health care, we all know that is an "aspiration" that he can't be sure to deliver even assuming his 100% determination to do so.  Americans are unlikely to agree to a certain tax increase on the vain hopes that a corresponding medical benefit will be enacted.  So, Edwards will be credited with a tax increase at the polls, but not with national health care.

Meanwhile, Edwards says that he was wrong on trust and wrong on substance when it came to his vote in favor of IWR.  He challenges Hillary Clinton to join him in the apology, so that they will seem equal in voters' eyes come the primaries in 2008.  

Right now, they are not equal.  He has has apologized ("flip-flopped" in television ad parlance) while Hillary has maintained that she did what she had to do under the circumstances and 'the tests of life provide no re-do's.'

Edwards began drawing attention to his Senate vote last fall, writing an op-ed piece in The Washington Post that began with the sentence: "I was wrong."

The soul searching continued today on NBC's "Meet the Press."

"It wasn't just the weapons of mass destruction I was wrong about," Edwards said. "It's become absolutely clear -- and I'm very critical of myself for this -- become absolutely clear, looking back, that I should not have given the president this authority."

Edwards's nationally-televised admission of guilt was just the start of what became a lengthy public dissection of the errors he said he made in casting the most important vote of his Senate tenure.

Some believe that kind of introspection has helped Edwards build a bridge to the most vocal anti-Iraq war quarters of the Democratic party, and may also help distinguish him from one of his chief rivals for the party's nomination, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.).  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2007/02/04/AR2007020400892. html?sub=AR

 

Rather than Edwards and the anti-war left pressuring Clinton to apologize to earn our votes, let's just let them each keep their respective positions and see who gets the most votes in the primaries.  Many Democratic primary voters may believe that the person who has not flip-flopped will do better in a general election than the candidate who has spent the primaries in a perpetual mea culpa designed to win votes on the Left.

And now, like the Republicans, Edwards says he was wrong because of bad information from the Clinton Administration:

During today's broadcast, Edwards said he based his vote not only on faulty information from traditional intelligence sources, but also from "former Clinton administration officials who gave me sort of independent information about what they believed about what was happening with Saddam's weapons programs."

"They were also wrong," Edwards said pointedly.

Further, Edwards said he believes "anybody who wants to be president of the United States has got to be honest and open, be willing to admit when they've done things wrong."

"If she believes that her vote was wrong," Edwards said when asked about Sen. Clinton, "then, yes, she should say so. If she believes her vote was right, then she should defend it." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2007/02/04/AR2007020400892. html?sub=AR

I think that rather than looking for new ways to blame the Clintons for the war in Iraq, we should just admit the obvious.  This is George W. Bush's war.  

Apologizing for how one voted three years ago will not bring the troops home now.  All it will do is give Republicans a hammer with which to beat our candidates over the head in 2008.  

If you don't believe Hillary regrets her vote, then vote for Obama or Edwards.  But if you want to win in 2008, then vote for a candidate who has not "flip-flopped", like Kerry did, on the IWR vote.

Disclosure:  I am among the 1.5% of MYDD.COM users who are Black.  You may freely discount my opinions while knowing that at least you have had a chance to know what they are.

Cross-posted at http://francislholland.blogspot.com/

Tags: clinton, Edwards, obama (all tags)

Comments

61 Comments

Re: John Edwards is Done, But He Doesn't Know It Y
I did not vote because apologizing now from a prez candidate looks like the person is being untrue.  Not meaning it and just doing it to get votes.
I don't agree with your assessment of Edwards apology, however.
I'm no Edwards supporter.  But, he was greatly admired and lauded for his apology.  It was not seen as a flipflop.  He won admirers for his op-ed.  Because he did it early it came off sincere.
The flipflop charges against Kerry was due to his own flub ups.  That would not have stuck with a more savvy candidate.
Indies will not hold the reverse against Edwards as they are just as against this war.
Edwards has other problems to hurdle thru but, this is not one of them.
by vwcat 2007-02-04 04:28PM | 0 recs
Re: John Edwards is Done, But He Doesn't Know It Y

If the Republicans' flip-flop ads aren't in the can already, you can bet they're getting ready.  Edwards is repeating his apology so often and in so many different ways, that the Republicans are sure to find a phrasing that will sound enough like a flip-flop for their campaign commercials.  They're not interested in truth or sincerity.  They just want to make our candidate look stupid.

Sometimes we imagine that what sounds good to us lefties when Edwards says it will sound good to everyone when they hear it taken out of context in a Republican attack ad.

I was against this war and saw it coming from long before it started.  But, I was not in favor of Kerry saying, "I voted for it before I voted against it."  I don't want to hear any of our candidates say ANYTHING that sounds vaguely like that this time.

by francislholland 2007-02-04 04:49PM | 0 recs
lol

and HRC is going to get around that how?

by areucrazy 2007-02-04 05:06PM | 0 recs
Re: John Edwards is Done, But He Doesn't Know It Y

I heard Edwards mention that taxes would need to be raised to pay for medical care. I am not too sure that people will care anymore. We have all seen that the less-and-less-tax solution leads to madness. So I am not sure people will even care, at this point.

As far as the 'war powers act' 'apology' issue is concerned, I didn't know that the gave apologies, but thought they expressed regret. (Except for Clinton) There is really a big difference.

Why you would be banned for this opinion is beyond me. People obsess about the horror and heartbreak of 'trolls' but some of the most vicious and hate-bating 'trolls' get by all the time. This is a valid point of view, which, while I don't quite agree with it, is understandable in general.

What bothers me is the possibility that this will all not matter if Congress continues to sit around and wait to see what Bush does next. That is driving us all nuts.

by blues 2007-02-04 08:18PM | 0 recs
Huh?

Wait... Repealing Bush's tax cuts is raising taxes?  Did I miss something?

BTW, what does being black have anything to do with it?

Also, calling people who had enough common sense to realize that this war wasn't legit the anti-war left demeans your candidate and your cause.  There are plenty of people who aren't anti-war that had enough brain cells to realize that the the war in Iraq was a fraud.

by areucrazy 2007-02-04 04:38PM | 0 recs
The Black Extinction Theory

Black Extinction Theory - The argument that Blacks can be accepted at white supremacist blogs if Blacks successfully hide their blackness from others. This theory encourages Blacks never to advocate for positions, goals or emphases important to Blacks, so that whites will not know that any Blacks are present at all.

However, for Blacks this approach to "blog harmony" eliminates any value that participating in a political blog might have, since extinguishing all signs and indications of our blackness makes it impossible for Blacks to advocate for Black issues.

by francislholland 2007-02-05 04:40AM | 0 recs
Re: The Black Extinction Theory

lol.  MyDD is a white supremacist blog?  You must have some serious issues.  I suggest you go work them out before continue to level ad-hominem insults at the participants of this blog.

Now, I've heard it all.

by areucrazy 2007-02-05 06:56AM | 0 recs
Re: John Edwards is Done, But He Doesn't Know It Y

This is nonsense.  Democrats must get over their fear of being labeled "tax and spend".  Right now in Illinois, for example we have a Democratic Governor and Cook County Board President both elected and sticking to "Read my lips, no new taxes pledges" and it's killing all the services government provides.

If Edwards really is dead just because he said he'd raise taxes, you might as well fold up the entire Democratic Party, Netroots, and the United States of America.  Everything we're doing here isn't worth a warm pitcher of spit in that case.

by sTiVo 2007-02-04 05:19PM | 0 recs
Go Ahead and Ban Me!

I have been warned that I can be banned for saying that John Edwards has made tactical mistakes and that he will be criticized as a flip-flopper.  I believe these things to be true and I will not stop saying them just because someone disagrees with me.

If you ban opinions then you are no better than the US forces in Iraq that shut down the Iraqis radio stations for criticizing the US government.  

If your ideas where clearly better, you would not need to ban me.  You could simply offer counter-arguments that everyone could see to be better.  Banning me simply shows that my ideas could gain currency if others were able to see and consider them. That's the same reason that Bush bans the opposition radio stations in Iraq.

Do as you will.   If you ban Black people on line, you will still have to meet us on street.

by francislholland 2007-02-04 05:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Go Ahead and Ban Me!

did someone say you would be banned?  i can't find that in this thread.

personally i prefer Edwards' contrition for the most serious mistake he made in his career to Hillary's mealy-mouthed failure to stand for anything bold

by lorax 2007-02-04 05:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Go Ahead and Ban Me!

The warning is posted at http://francislholland.blogspot.com/2007 /02/banned-from-myddcom.html

There's not a lot of transparency in these banning procedures.  Just frog march people out under cover of darkness and pretend they were never here, like something out of George Orwell's 1984.

by francislholland 2007-02-04 05:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Go Ahead and Ban Me!

I don't agree with you some of the assertions you have made in this dairy and others, too.  But I sincerely hope you don't get banned for the things you have stated here.  I don't even agree that you should be threatened for stating your opinion, unless it is disruptive to the dialectic process or whatever.

But, if you don't mind my asking, I wonder why you mention that you are Black, not that I mind, in contexts where it seems to have little relevance to the topic.  When I first encountered your diaries I had no idea of your race, or age or gender for that matter, and I haven't encountered a topic where it has seemed to matter.  I mean it is your choice, surely.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-02-04 06:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Go Ahead and Ban Me!

Many studies have shown that Black people see things differently from white people.  If a white majority at a blog decides what is "acceptable opinion" then Blacks will have no opportunity to express themselves and whites will have no opportunity to find out what Blacks are really thinking.

There are only 1.5% Blacks at this blog, according to a recent poll here.  Apparently, the owners think that is too many, because they want to ban me from participating here.  I think we all lose when we are so afraid of others' opinions that we try to gag them, like the US government does to opposition newspapers in Iraq.

My skin-color is relevant because if they ban me, they're probably banning the only Black man to offer his opinion here tonight, if not one of two.  Does that help the progressive movement or does it only help entrenched racism while retarding progressive goals?

by francislholland 2007-02-04 06:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Go Ahead and Ban Me!

Francis, I find it difficult to accept that you have been warned because of your race.  The only other time I have heard race discussed here was on a diary about Senator Obama's and HRC's support among black people when several bloggers self-identified their race, both black and white, to clarify their posts.  And it all seemed to be done quite fluently without any particular awkwardness or positioning by anyone along racial lines.

After reading your comment about the warning I took the trouble to go back over your diaries of the last  week or two to try and understand what caused the site hosts to warn you.

It reminded me that I, also, had found some of your diaries a bit polemic and declamatory, which is OK I guess, but almost uniformly negative regarding this or that candidate or position.

Well, we all have our bad days, I am having one today, when we get a bit snarky and critical.  But I can remember having thought to myself at that time, when looking back over your diaries, what is this guy on about?  And it is not as though you just do this in the context of other people's diaries but writ in ten foot high letters with strongly worded titles.  OK, we all need a bit of diversity, but maybe, just maybe, you should consider getting your opinions on the site in a slightly more collegial fashion.

Having said that I haven't noticed you getting troll rated, particularly, but you would no better than I would about that.  And I have been happy to post on your diaries where you raised a topic which I felt strongly about, pro or con.

Why don't you just relax a bit and take it easy.  I don't think anyone is trying to persecute you, honestly.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-02-04 06:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Go Ahead and Ban Me!

Somehow some one got francislholland upset, maybe they said they might ban him or something. People are human, and they get upset by things. Maybe some one didn't like the 'frames' he is using. Well, not everyone can be expected to use the 'right frames' all the time. He really doesn't seem to mean any harm. It takes time to learn the 'frame' thing. And maybe there is too much worry about it around here anyway.

by blues 2007-02-04 08:38PM | 0 recs
New ideas require new frames

I create my own "frames", because part of speaking powerfully is creating new metaphors.  If I accede to others' frames, I tacitly accept their opinions, beliefs and goals.

I am a Black person with a Black opinion.  Jesse Jackson created his own frames in 1988 and won 16 primary states even while white frames said, "Jesse can't win".  If he had acceded to white "dark horse" "long-shot" frames, then he could not have won all of the primaries that he won.

I have created the "43-term exclusively white monopoly of the Presidency" frame to defeat the "can she win" , "no she can't" frame and the "Is America ready for a woman" frames.  My frame highlights the fact that the traditional frames "Is America ready" frames are sexist, racist and are part of the reason why America has never elected a President who is not a white male.  My frame puts "white male supremacy" on the defensive.

Wherever ideas compete, frames compete.  If I cannot create and propose my own frames, as others do here, then I have surrendered in the battle of ideas.  I refuse to surrender in the battle of ideas and I refuse to stop proposing new frames just because others don't like them.

One of my priorities in 2008 is to end the "43-term exclusively white male monopoly of the Presidency".  This is a new frame that I created for this purpose.  Others want to perpetuate with their votes and advocacy the 43-term exclusively white male monopoly of the Presidency.  This is a fundamental issue and will be hotly debated over the next months, whether MYDD bans me or not.  However, if MYDD bans me then this debate will be had here in an echo chamber in which only the pro-white male monopoly forces will have their voices heard.

Of course those who want to perpetuate the white male monopoly say that doing so is merely a by-product of their progressive politics.  I say that progressive politics requires the retirement of the white male monopoly.  This is a disagreement.  I should not be banned for disagreeing about this, even if white people really dislike my opinion about this.

Banning Black voices promotes and creates Blog Apartheid and reinforces the overwhelming whiteness of the DailyKos/MyDD "whitosphere", where over 95% of participants are white and most are male.

Banning people for any type of expression is a fundamentally un-American way to behave in the marketplace of political ideas.  The political blogosphere ought not be like a suburban white tea party where we choose to be in the presence only of those with whom we feel most comfortable.  

As soon as you begin reviewing the ideas and expressions presented in my previous posts to determine whether I should be permitted to remain, you have begun to practice censorship.  When it is an almost exclusively white group that does the reviewing, it is inevitable that Black ideas will more often be considered unacceptable, leading to the Blog Apartheid that we currently have.

Meanwhile, the few Blacks who remain will be "Clarence Thomas Blacks" who only express those ideas and speak within those frames that are pre-approved by their white patrons.  I would prefer to be banned then to restrict my speech and expression to only those ideas that are pre-approved by a group that is 98.5% white.  If you accept my participation, and by extension that of Black people generally, you must allow us to express OUR ideas, not merely YOUR ideas.

If you ban me, and those who would express ideas such as mine, and thereby perpetuate a blogosphere apartheid, you will surely continue to meet us Blacks and other minorities - sullen, angry, misunderstood and resentful - on the streets of the United States of America.

by francislholland 2007-02-05 05:20AM | 0 recs
Re: New ideas require new frames

In respect of your 43-term exclusively white male monopoly of the Presidency frame, wouldn't a black man, Obama, end that frame just as definitely as a white woman, HRC?

by Shaun Appleby 2007-02-05 05:27AM | 0 recs
Yes, Obama would and so would Richardson.

by francislholland 2007-02-05 07:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, Obama would and so would Richardson.

Good point, I hadn't thought of that.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-02-05 10:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Go Ahead and Ban Me!

Which diary do you reckon you got warned because of?

by Shaun Appleby 2007-02-04 06:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Go Ahead and Ban Me!

I got warned tonight after posting this diary, but I have posted many diaries here and at DailyKos.  DailyKos and MYDD have an agreement that whoever is banned at DailyKos (I have been banned there) will also be banned at MYDD.COM. This means that when DailyKos, which has 2.5% Blacks bans someone, then that person will also be banned at MYDD, which has 1.5% Black participation.  

The First Amendment gaurantees of free speech do not apply here, but this treatment of Black people resembles the "pass laws" of South Africa; we can only come to white blogs if given a pass to do so by the white blog owners.  Apartheid in the "progressive" blogosphere is not going to help progressives or the Democratic Party.  Because after ignoring our opinions for the next year, we Blacks are going to have half the votes to cast in states like South Carolina.  

Latinos who are similarly absent at the white blogs will decide elections in a number of other states.  Cacooning and only listening to other whites is not the way to get the most information about voter opinions and preferences in the 21st Century.

by francislholland 2007-02-04 06:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Go Ahead and Ban Me!

Dude, you're free to set up your own blog and express yourself, as you apparently already have. You don't have the right to walk into someone's house and start ranting. When that happens, the owners of the house have a right to ask you to leave whenever they desire.

by clarkent 2007-02-04 06:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Go Ahead and Ban Me!

Fine!  When you see that Black man on the street and you feel so afraid of him, remember that you ignored him when he wanted to write to you over the Internet.  If blog apartheid with 1.5% Black participation is what you want, then you really are not progressives.  

When you come looking to round up black votes for your candidates, remember that you don't even let us speak our minds at your white apartheid blogs.

by francislholland 2007-02-04 06:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Go Ahead and Ban Me!

You're nuts.

by clarkent 2007-02-04 06:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Go Ahead and Ban Me!

enough already Francis ... get off the cross we need the firewood!

good god, you do natter on don't you?  did you every consider people respond to you the way they do becuase of your negativity and nor your color?

finally, i find your tax comments to be rather questionable and confusing. i wonder, what is your problem with edwards or any other left of center democrat?  

by bamabarrron 2007-02-04 09:26PM | 0 recs
The Argument Sketch

Did you want a five minute argument or the full half-hour?  

Give it a rest, Francis, and relax.  First Amendment issues are constrained by the terms and conditions of the site.  You agreed to them, what's wrong with abiding by them?  This site is free and nobody is persecuting you because of your race.

If you piss someone off you can't always blame the culture.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-02-04 06:40PM | 0 recs
Re: The Argument Sketch

In America, we don't "ban" people who piss us off.  This is a profoundly un-American concept created only in the last few years, in the white male supremacist blogosphere.

In America, the First Amendment gaurantees that we listen to what others have to say, even if we don't like it, before we get angry and shoot each other.

You can ban Blacks from the whitosphere and create a cozy white enclave, but you will inevitably meet us on the streets of America, angrier than before for having been consigned to the other side of a digital divide, in The New Online Apartheid.

by francislholland 2007-02-05 05:29AM | 0 recs
Re: The Argument Sketch

I wasn't actually referring to the banning thing in that comment, more the responses you had from other bloggers, not the site.  We like you, apparently, Francis and your contribution to this site has been positive.  Stay on the sunny side of the street and I think you could make a really positive contribution here.

BTW thanks for the Overtun Window comment, that was interesting.  How do you open the bloody thing?

by Shaun Appleby 2007-02-05 05:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Go Ahead and Ban Me!

Come on man, don't play the racist angle here.  Its Bullshit and you know it.  I don't necessarily agree they should ban you, but to say its because your black is ridiculous.  

You never answered my question... Do you work for HRC's campaign?

by yitbos96bb 2007-02-05 10:39AM | 0 recs
Healthcare beats taxes

The median American family now spends more on healthcare than on taxes. Americans have this kooky taxophobia; of course taxes are bad but they're not the leading expense for most Americans and really, for what we get (a functioning society) they are the most incredible bargain on earth. Now though, a government program (universal single-payer healthcare) could actually save typical families what they spend on taxes. The game is about to change.

by curtadams 2007-02-04 05:41PM | 0 recs
Re: John Edwards is Done, But He Doesn't Know It Y

why are you going to be banned for criticizing Edwards?  That makes no sense.  You have your right to your opinions.  You are not threatening anyone's life or whatever.

by vwcat 2007-02-04 05:56PM | 0 recs
Re: John Edwards is Done, But He Doesn't Know It Y

They don't like what I have to say, and I refuse to echo their Party line.  Plus, I constantly remind them that there are only 2.5% Blacks at DailyKos and 1.5% Blacks at MYDD.COM.  Instead of threatening me with expulsion, they should be giving me a daily column in the hopes that I might be able to bring some more Blacks in here.

They hate Black's opinions now, but they'll be wondering how to get our vote our for the next elections.  Unfortunately, there won't be a single Black around to help them.  

http://www.dailykos.com/search?offset=0& amp;old_count=30&string=francislholl and&type=diary_by&sortby=relevan ce&search=Search&count=30&wa yback=525600&wayfront=0&search_a rchive=yes

by francislholland 2007-02-04 06:20PM | 0 recs
Re: John Edwards is Done, But He Doesn't Know It Y

I don't think that was the reason he was warned.  The first post he made here was about how awful Kos was.  He's proceeded to attack Democrats for not being as cool as Clinton.

What it comes down to is he is a troll, plain and simple.  That he posts a private warning to him shows that.

Bye bye, Francis.

by Vox Populi 2007-02-04 06:24PM | 0 recs
Re: John Edwards is Done, But He Doesn't Know It Y

You think people should be banned in a "private", anonymous way?  Why?  Why not lay your cards on the table and take a formal vote, the way any Democratic organization would.  I understand that there is no right to free speech at white progressive blogs, but what about the Due Process clause?  

Or have we abandoned here all Constitutional protections for minorities in the face of the overwhelming power of the majority?

Instead of acting anonymously to drive someone out of town, like the Klu Klux Klan did, why don't you have a formal Due Process vote and indentify yourselves?  

I repeat:  You can ban all Blacks from your "progressive" and virtuall all-white blogosphere, but you will still need our votes and you will be unable to avoid meeting us on the streets of America.  As the blogosphere becomes more white, the resentment of the excluded minorities will become more acute, with predictable results.

Bush refused to negotiate with Iraq, Iran or Syria and insisted on starting a war instead.  Now, in your efforts to stop that war, you insist that you cannot engage in discussion even with the Blacks within your own party.  For everyone's sake, I hope your "no discussions" policy will be more successful in American than it has been in Iraq.  Engaging open in discussion is often very challenging and unpleasant, and yet is always preferable to engaging in open war.

by francislholland 2007-02-05 07:58AM | 0 recs
I don't really want francislholland banned, but...

I think the problem is that Francis just comes here to rant. I mean, I don't even know what this diary is about, other than Hillary good, Edwards bad.

by clarkent 2007-02-04 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: I don't really want francislholland banned, bu

One person's rant is another person's forcefully expressed opinion.  If you were Black, you might want to rant too.

I would think that white people would prefer for Blacks to express themselves in writing instead of burning cities down and beating people over the head.  

History shows that one way or another Blacks will be heard from.  There are only 1.5% Blacks at MYDD now and now there will be one fewer.  We can't make you share your blogs, but you will still have to share this country with us and it's not going to be pretty  if you shut us down every time we try to express our opinions peacefully, in writing.

by francislholland 2007-02-04 06:24PM | 0 recs
Re: John Edwards is Done, But He Doesn't Know It Y

When white people decide what a Black person may appropriately say in writing, then you have a riot in the making.

by francislholland 2007-02-04 06:30PM | 0 recs
Francs is done and he knows it

Looks like you're trying to get banned at this point.

by clarkent 2007-02-04 06:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Francs is done and he knows it

If I'm going to be threatened with being banned, then I'd like to say my peace first.

When in America do we tell people, "We don't like your opinions and so we are going to remove your right to speak"?  Is that a traditional American practice or something borrowed from Bush's Guantanamo Bay?

It is un-American to exercise censorship of speech unless it includes "fighting words" or an imminent threat to public order.  Lowering the bar for censorship of opinions ought not be the foremost priority of "progressive" blogs at this point.

If you let Black people tell you how we feel, it will certainly sound like "ranting" much of the time, at least at first.  If you make a rule against ranting and you let white people decide what is a rant and what isn't, then you will find that your blog is 98.5% white, which is what MYDD is now.  The present rules are a recipe for Blog apartheid, because studies show that Blacks and whites simply disagree about many things.  If you let us speak at all, then you will inevitably hear things that you don't like and don't approve of.

The question is whether those political disagreements should be addressed at Blogs, or in the streets, like they were in the 1960's and 1970's, and most recently in the streets of Australia and France.

With a couple of keystrokes, you can ban blacks from speaking at your blogs.  But, we'll still be sharing American with you.  Sullen, misunderstood, ignored and angry.

by francislholland 2007-02-04 06:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Francs is done and he knows it

Yes there are general differences in how people in different racial groups react to different circumstances and issues, but surely you don't believe that all black people react the same way to everything?  There are differing opinions within every community.

Given that, making a hard and fast claim that having an opinion of yours declared out of bounds, in the context of this site, is trying to suppress views of blacks, would be an unsupported stretch of logic. What if in this particular case your views were not widely shared in the black community? Pretty much the full range of viewpoints exist in every community. It is the proportional spread of the percentage of people holding one view over another that differs from one racial community to another.

The issues of free speech and basic fairness may still be in play here, and if a larger pattern can be argued, perhaps a case can be made that an expression of viewpoints common to one or another racial group may not be as well received here as are others, but so far I see a claim that the posting activity of you, an African American, is being unfairly challanged, not that of a racial community.

by Tom Rinaldo 2007-02-05 05:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Francs is done and he knows it

You have no idea what views are widely shared in the Black community, because your blog has virtually no Black participants who could help you to understand what Black people are thinking.

When Barack Obama blogged at DailyKos, then too whites demanded to know what (aside from being the only Black US Senator) gave Obama the right to speak for all Black people.  The fact is that if there were more Black people here, none of us could or would need to speak for all Black people.  Meanwhile, in any conversation where only one or two Black people is present, those are the best Black spokespersons available.

I used to organize anti-war rallies and pro-immigrants rallies, so I know something about getting minorities to participate in progressive causes.  A blog that is 98.5% white, and that bans people such as me, need not wonder any more why its anti-war rallies are almost exclusively white, devoid of minority participation.  

Maintaining an exclusively white blogosphere is not going to lead to larger, more inclusive anti-war rallies.  You will have to choose:  Either open the white blogs to a diversity of Democratic Party opinion or fight the anti-war fight all by yourselves.  If we are not here to hear the call, how can you expect us to appear at your anti-war rallies?

by francislholland 2007-02-05 05:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Francs is done and he knows it

Well, Francis, your helping us out 'cuz you seem to speak quite volubly.  You may only be 1.5% of the community but you are using a significantly larger portion of the waveband. :-)

by Shaun Appleby 2007-02-05 05:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Francs is done and he knows it

I'm not sure if you are actually speaking to me here since I don't have a participatory blog, thus by definition my blog is mono-racial.  I have no more to do with MyDD than you do.

I never claimed to know what views are widely shared in the Black community, I was just asserting logic, and I stand by that logic. I've known lots of people in every race who profess views that are not necessarily representative of anyone other than themselves.  And I've heard lots of people of every race claim to represent a far broader constituency than their own individual views. Making a claim does not make it so.  

In your case your claim may well be true.  Some people's views are fairly well alligned with a larger community of which they are a part and those views therefor can be called representative. But if Clarence Thomas claims to repreent the views of the African American community on affirmative action, should I simply take his word for it?

Look, We don't know each other but I am willing to start out with a positive bias, to use an emotionally charged word.  I am willing to presume a likelyhood that you indeed have your finger on a major pulse.  But I do not suspend all disbelief because someone claiming to represents Christian is wearing a crucifix. Especially if the discussion isn't about religion to begin with, but rather censorship.

Since you believe that the blogosphere functions in a way that leads it to be overwhelmingly white, and since you imply that more than economic disparities (access to going online) drives the overwhelmingly white nature of it, please expand on your point, because it is an important one. Hinging that point on one person's individual experience in a specific incident is not a strong way to establish that point.

For example, hypothetically perhaps most whites are culturally generally less comfortable with a certain style of expression than Blacks are. I really am just making up something here for sake of discussion, I am not making a real claim, but if that were so, perhaps a certain cultural form of expression more common in the Black than White community might come across as "rude" to some Whites.  That might lead to disproportionate censorship of one racial community over another based on supposed transgressions of a cultural standard for civility.

But you know what?  There will always be "rude" people in every cultural group. Sometimes no cross-cultural issue is at play.  Some individuals really are rude, period. If you want to open your concern up into a larger discussion, please do so.  But do so by truly opening it up, not by holding yourself up as exhibit A, and exhibit B, and exhibit C.

by Tom Rinaldo 2007-02-05 06:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Francs is done and he knows it

Imagine that two candidates are running for an office.  The simplest way for the white male owners of a "progressive" blog to manufacture a consensus in favor of their preferred candidate is to expel everyone from the blog who strongly and vocally disagrees with them. People who strongly and vocally disagree with us can simply defined as "trolls".

Markos runs a 95% white blog.  That is simply the truth, based on the blog's own internal polling. MyDD has only 1.5% Black participants, again based on internal polling. Is this an inappropriate issue to discuss here or at DailyKos?

Virtually ALL Black people distrust organizations that are 98.5% white.  It doesn't matter what reasons or excuses those groups offer for their lack of diversity.  Blacks know that, regardless of the reasons, those groups do not and cannot represent our interests unless they permit our participation.  When some among the few Blacks who join are subsequently banned, this feeds the perception that the groups are hostile to Black people.  

I am only a representative of the Black community in the sense that I am virtually the only Black person here at this moment, if your own internal polling is any measure.  The way to prove that my opinion is not representative is not to ban me from the organization but rather to involve more Black people who might offer a more representative sample.  

When I say that I have a "Black voice", I am not talking about "cultural forms of expression".  I am a lawyer and I have found that judges and administrative forums have never failed to understand my way of speaking and writing in English.  

However, we live in a society in which Blacks' substantive views about many things differ markedly from the those of whites.  We disagree about the prevalence of racism, the progress America has made, and other important issues.  There is often a significant difference between Blacks support for candidate and the white voting patters.  We have a history in which what whites perceived as benefitting them was often categorically opposed to what Blacks perceived as benefitting us.

In the face of such differences, if whites simply ban Blacks from blogs to avoid hearing what Blacks have to say, that will inevitably lead to blog apartheid.  Meanwhile, if Blacks need white's permission to participate and express themselves at blogs, then that becomes analogous to the pass system in Apartheid South Africa, where Blacks needed whites permission to enter white cities.  This is not going to lead to interracial harmony or cooperation within the Democratic Party or in America at large.

by francislholland 2007-02-05 08:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Francs is done and he knows it

I appreciate this post Francis, it furthers an important discussion.  I know that there is a direct relationship, even if it isn't causal, between the large point you are making here and your individual circumstance on this board and on kos also for that matter.  Because I feel your larger point is a critical one to look at, I suggest as much as realistically possible that you seperate that out for discussion from too narrow a focus on any one specific instance of acceptance or rejection.  

It makes it too easy to confuse your larger theme with potential personality conflicts, and/or what is or is not a reasonable enforcement of a particular blog's policies in a given instance, regardless of the race of a party in question, if this theme remains tied tightly to the pros and cons of a specific warning received.

It is a worthy theme for discussion on a Diary of it's own.  There is too much going on here for one cohesive discussion:  There are reactions to candidates running for Presdent and responding to your reactions of same, there is a discussion of what standards are reasonable for a blog site to impose on discussion, there is whether or not you are being treated fairly here as an individual, and there is the meta theme of racial participation and empowerment.  

by Tom Rinaldo 2007-02-05 08:56AM | 0 recs
Re: ?

What specifically are you writing that 1) identifies your comments as black? And 2) what about that are people trying to ban?

by justinh 2007-02-05 09:17AM | 0 recs
Re: John Edwards is Done, But He Doesn't Know It Y
I think the idea of having a black voice doing a posting with that perspective is a cool one.  I think it would be interesting and helpful for the white readers to get a black perspective.
It would be a great way to broaden understanding.
by vwcat 2007-02-04 06:32PM | 0 recs
Re: John Edwards is Done, But He Doesn't Know It Y

Yeah, you don't have to agree with what ANYONE says, but it's a good idea to hear from EVERYONE if you are counting on their votes in November.  

If I disagree about who should be the nominee, is it better that I say so here and now, or that half of Blacks stay home in November because white progressives were unwilling to listen to us when the choices were being made?

There is NO ONE who is more likely to vote Democratic than Black people.  I think that earns us a right to speak our peace, even at "progressive" white blogs and even if some white people think our opinions are outrageous.  

Because, in the final analysis, we are the most reliably Democratic voters that the Democratic Party has.

As the Iraq War shows, outrageous discussions are always better than conventional warfare.

by francislholland 2007-02-04 06:41PM | 0 recs
Socratic Dialogues

For over 2,500 years there has been a tacit understanding among intelligent people engaged in philosophic and political discourse (the theologians, sadly, don't get much of a look in here) that there are two basic rules accepted by both participants, who are known as interlocuters.  

You must accord your interlocuter the respect and dignity that:

1.  They are a well informed person, by right of their experience and learning as a human being, your equal.

2.  That they are genuinely engaged in the noble process of seeking after the truth (whatever that is) as you are.

The Hegelian dialectic is a variation of this which goes on to posit that this is the only true course for development of reason and that the interlocuters will always end up at a conclusion different from their respective starting points.

As far as I am concerned that is the only price of admission to such a forum (another good Greek concept) as this.  Tell me, Francis, do you think you abide by these constraints?  This transcends the right of free speech, my friend, this is the right of a free mind.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-02-04 09:27PM | 0 recs
Speech is the Alternative to War

I do not agree that we need to reference the ancient Greeks in order to understand that speaking to each other is the alternative to killing each other.  We need only look to Iraq to find out what happens when one group declares that speaking to the others is unacceptable.  The only alternative to negotiation is war.  You cannot negotiate with people with whom you are unwilling to have a dialogue.  And in a dialogue you can only determine what you will say, not what others will say or how they will say it.

Rarely in America do whites hear what Blacks really think.  Where would this occur?  At work?  In our segregated neighborhoods?  

Have you had a frank discussion at MYDD, with Blacks present, about what Blacks' goals are in 2008?  Of course you have not had that discussion! You could not!  There are virtually no Blacks here.

There is nothing about the way that I address you that is disrespectful.  If I expressed ideas with which you agree in the same way, then no one would object at all.  I'm "clean" and "articulate", but I have a Black perspective with which people are unfamiliar and uncomfortable.  It doesn't help that I don't like the Democratic presidential candidates that you like because I prefer the ones that happen to be considerably more popular in the Black community.

Ban me if you will, but that will make it harder to reach people like me with your Get Out The Vote drives in September and November of 2008.

A better strategy to achieve your own goals would be to encourage me to keep writing the things that you hate to read, in the hopes that it will attract more Black people to your "progressive" ideas.  You can't win without more Black people, and I think you know that.  If you ban me, you're just taking one more step in the wrong direction.

by francislholland 2007-02-05 05:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Speech is the Alternative to War

Francis, that was an invitation, not a judgement.  It was a mutual acknowledgement of respect and dignity.

If you are taking drugs, stop.  If you are not taking drugs, see a doctor and get some.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-02-05 06:27AM | 0 recs
This poster is INSANE

It didn't take him long to pull the race card.  Funny how it was him who in a diary recently was talking about the evil Jews.

If Francis thinks he's going to get banned because of the color of his skin, then he is more ignorant than his rants.

Blogger Apartheid?  Geesh.

by Vox Populi 2007-02-04 06:42PM | 0 recs
Re: This poster is INSANE

What do you call it when a Democratic Party blog has only 1.5% blacks and then bans the ones it has?  The leftist blogs are all white.  If you ban the blacks you have because you don't like the way we express ourselves or you don't like our opinions, then you will end up with just what you have now -  a virtually all-white blog.

That's not a "race-card", it's a race fact from your own internal polling.

by francislholland 2007-02-04 06:56PM | 0 recs
Re: This poster is INSANE

I could understand your point of view if it was only black posters getting banned for expressing themselves or behaving as you are.  But your skin color doesn't give you special rights to be obnoxious.

by Vox Populi 2007-02-04 07:01PM | 0 recs
Re: This poster is INSANE

Since when does America "ban" people for their modes of expression, short of outright calls to violence?  Is this a suburban tea party you're running here?  

You have created a system of controlled speech even more oppressive than the systems that you criticize when operated by governments.

You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.  History will judge harshly the censors who cared more about politeness than they did that their blogs were all white and getting all-whiter all the time.  Have your apartheid blogs!  You will meet Black people and Latinos and Asians on the streets and in the polling booths even if you ban us from your whitosphere.

by francislholland 2007-02-04 07:22PM | 0 recs
Re: This poster is INSANE

Considering I am Latino, I have to agree I'll meet my kind on the streets.

by Vox Populi 2007-02-05 02:46AM | 0 recs
Re: John Edwards is Done, But He Doesn't Know It Y

hey vox, I like your blog.

by vwcat 2007-02-04 06:48PM | 0 recs
Reasons for banning...

wow.  Well, first, these are just guesses, but...

1) Your poll is typical framing 101.  Someone who doesn't agree with your assumptions has no answer to give.  For example, if I think that "flip flopping" is bad in general, but in this case follows the trend of the nation, will not anger any liberals who aren't already in Nader-purity land, and will win over a lot of independents who have decided that yes, they were wrong too... what do I vote?  It's a cheap trick that should be discouraged.

2) Why do you think people are against targetted, limited tax raising?  Most people would prefer the Clinton 90s with higher taxes on the rich to the Bush 00s with lower taxes on the rich.  You don't meet the "rules of criticizing progressives" with your anti tax tirades.

3) Your immediate claim that it's about being black seems, well, overly defensive and a bit of a stretch.  I haven't gone back and read any of your other posts, but at least in this one, you don't defend your substance of your assertions, you just pull the "you can't understand a black man unless you are one!" card.

4) Your immediate claim that there is some sort of "party line" when the front pagers here seem pretty varied on the candidates they like seems... a bit of a stretch.  There have been a ton of anti-edwards posts lately.  Why would yours be so, so hated on?

by dansomone 2007-02-04 07:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Reasons for banning...

(1)  If you don't like my poll, post a better one to prove your point.

(2)  I have a right in America (but apparently not at this blog) to argue that people will not respond positively to blanket calls for tax increases.  Edwards has not called for a blanket tax increase, however, the Republicans will CHARACTERIZE what Edwards has said as a blanket call for a tax increase, no matter what Edwards has said.  This is my opinion, based on the results of the 1980, 1984 and 1988 elections.  If you disagree with me, you can make you point in a more American fashion by presenting other convincing arguments instead of trying to prevent me from presenting my facts and opinions.

(3)  There is a

(3)  I have not said that "you can't understand me because I'm black".  I've said that the fact that, at a blog with only 1.5% Black participation, you want to ban one of the few Blacks you have is evidence that you don't WANT to understand me or people like me.  If this is not so, how do you explain to yourselves the fact that you have virtually no Black participation?  Just as you would think twice before firing your only bricklayer on a contruction site, I submit to you that you should round up a few more black participants before you consider firing one of the few that you already have.  Blacks are a necessary progressive constituency and you don't seem to have a membership strategy that reflects that.

(4)  I never mentioned "front-pagers" at all.  I said that many people here do not like Hillary Clinton and they are hostile to any arguments that seem to support her, including the argument that John Edwards has become more like Clinton by adopting her "all options on the table" rhetoric.  

The idea that you should evaluate the arguments of Democratic party member posters to decide whether they should be permitted to participate here is un-democratic in the extreme.  It's unprecedented in the recent history of Democratic politics.  At our caucuses, we listen to EVERYONE and then decide by majority vote. We decide the ISSUE, NOT who should be ejected from the caucus.  Voting is the way that we decide whose views will prevail, not binding, gagging, exiling or executing those with whom we disagree.

by francislholland 2007-02-05 06:26AM | 0 recs
Vocabulary of the New Online Apartheid

Please refer to my website for the MYDD and DK-inspired "Vocabulary of the New Online Apartheid.

http://francislholland.blogspot.com/2007 /02/vocabulary-of-new-online-apartheid.h tml

by francislholland 2007-02-04 07:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Vocabulary of the New Online Apartheid

The new on-line apartheid?  A touch hyperbolic, isn't it?

by justinh 2007-02-05 02:12AM | 0 recs

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