Throw Mamma From the Train [Updated]

And Grandma Under the Bus

The thing that strikes me the most about Obama's race speech today is that his campaign intends for this to be the definitive and last word on the subject. It is as if they believe that Obama himself is entitled to play by his own set of rules while holding Hillary, her campaign and her supporters to another standard entirely. Lets begin by examining some of words that Obama used and see if what he claims measures up with the facts on the ground.

In describing his intimate relationship with Reverend Wright Obama took great pains to create an image of a true reverend of a man, a patriot dedicated to helping others in need and preaching the gospel of Christ.

But the truth is, that isn't all that I know of the man. The man I met more than twenty years ago is a man who helped introduce me to my Christian faith, a man who spoke to me about our obligations to love one another; to care for the sick and lift up the poor. He is a man who served his country as a U.S. Marine; who has studied and lectured at some of the finest universities and seminaries in the country, and who for over thirty years led a church that serves the community by doing God's work here on Earth - by housing the homeless, ministering to the needy, providing day care services and scholarships and prison ministries, and reaching out to those suffering from HIV/AIDS.

All very well and good. It seems logical that if Obama had the deep feelings for this man that he describes in many places he would look up to him and regard him as a role model. Not just to himself but to others. But what Obama doesn't mention is that the "values" that Reverend Wright and the Trinity Unity Church of Christ believe are "black" value system. Not the Christian value system. On the face of it seems that Obama's church of 20 years is a segregationalist church. In fact it is.

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

1. Commitment to God

  1. Commitment to the Black Community
  2. Commitment to the Black Family
  3. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
  4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
  5. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
  6. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
  7. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
  8. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
  9. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
  10. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
  11. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

For the strangest reason this Black Value System was "disappeared" from the Trinity Church's website. This occurred sometime between March 15, 2007 and March 29th, 2007. Here is a link to an archived copy of the page for your reading pleasure: About Us But as it turns out the Black Value System page of the Trinity website still does exist. It is now a little link on the Home Page just under where it says: For more information click here The Black Value System.

You will notice that this goes into much more detail as to what the Black Value System is and what they expect of their adherents. And frankly I don't find anything that they state to be objectionable. In fact they are all worthy goals. Except for the fact that they emphasize that they are black goals for black people. And they are exclusively for blacks. But isn't exclusivity segregation?

And occasionally it finds voice in the church on Sunday morning, in the pulpit and in the pews. The fact that so many people are surprised to hear that anger in some of Reverend Wright's sermons simply reminds us of the old truism that the most segregated hour in American life occurs on Sunday morning. That anger is not always productive; indeed, all too often it distracts attention from solving real problems; it keeps us from squarely facing our own complicity in our condition, and prevents the African-American community from forging the alliances it needs to bring about real change. But the anger is real; it is powerful; and to simply wish it away, to condemn it without understanding its roots, only serves to widen the chasm of misunderstanding that exists between the races.

I wondered about his choice of words here considering the fact that his church, while not segregated, is indeed segregationalist with it's "black" value system. What is Obama trying to say to us? Is he claiming that churches in white neighborhoods preach a "white" value system too? Well in fact, Obama's choice of phrase comes from the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. who used it frequently in describing his religious experiences in the deep south during the 1960s.

Most Segregated Hour

Miller: Don't you feel that integration can only be started and realized in the Christian church, not in schools or by other means? This would be a means of seeing just who are true Christians.

King: As a preacher, I would certainly have to agree with this. I must admit that I have gone through those moments when I was greatly disappointed with the church and what it has done in this period of social change. We must face the fact that in America, the church is still the most segregated major institution in America. At 11:00 on Sunday morning when we stand and sing and Christ has no east or west, we stand at the most segregated hour in this nation. This is tragic. Nobody of honesty can overlook this. Now, I'm sure that if the church had taken a stronger stand all along, we wouldn't have many of the problems that we have. The first way that the church can repent, the first way that it can move out into the arena of social reform is to remove the yoke of segregation from its own body. Now, I'm not saying that society must sit down and wait on a spiritual and moribund church as we've so often seen. I think it should have started in the church, but since it didn't start in the church, our society needed to move on. The church, itself, will stand under the judgment of God. Now that the mistake of the past has been made, I think that the opportunity of the future is to really go out and to transform American society, and where else is there a better place than in the institution that should serve as the moral guardian of the community. The institution that should preach brotherhood and make it a reality within its own body.

So Obama claims that we need to move on from the past while at the same time holding on to the definitions of the past. He claims that we need to reach out beyond the racial divide to seek unity and racial equality and yet he belongs to an Afrocentric church that preaches the "black" value system. And this man
that Obama admires so much who is supposedly "doing God's work here on Earth" apparently does so by condemning the United States with his 10 essential facts.

Destiny's Child

Wright takes the pulpit here one Sunday and solemnly, sonorously declares that he will recite ten essential facts about the United States. "Fact number one: We've got more black men in prison than there are in college," he intones. "Fact number two: Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!"There is thumping applause; Wright has a cadence and power that make Obama sound like John Kerry. Now the reverend begins to preach. "We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional KILLERS. . . . We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God. . . . We conducted radiation experiments on our own people. . . . We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means!" The crowd whoops and amens as Wright builds to his climax: "And. And. And! GAWD! Has GOT! To be SICK! OF THIS SHIT!"

Whew! That sure doesn't sound like any church I ever attended. In fact, in the churches I attended it was taught that we weren't supposed to use words like "shit". And we were taught that all races and all people are equal under God's law. But Obama explains....

They are full of dancing, clapping, screaming and shouting that may seem jarring to the untrained ear. The church contains in full the kindness and cruelty, the fierce intelligence and the shocking ignorance, the struggles and successes, the love and yes, the bitterness and bias that make up the black experience in America.

Sorry there Senator Obama. It isn't the dancing and the clapping or the screaming and the shouting that jar me. It is WHAT they are dancing and clapping and screaming and shouting about.

And those who know him well agree that apparently Obama agrees with Wright.

"If you want to understand where Barack gets his feeling and rhetoric from," says the Rev. Jim Wallis, a leader of the religious left, "just look at Jeremiah Wright."

So it is understandable that Obama might be unwilling to distance himself from his pastor, spiritual mentor and close personal friend of 20 years. He is like a member of his family.

I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother - a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.

These people are a part of me. And they are a part of America, this country that I love.

So, is he saying that because Granny said some racist things more than once during his lifetime and she is white that we can now excuse Reverend Wright? Or is he saying that because Reverend Wright is like a member of his family and that well, racism runs in the family so there really isn't anything he can do about it? It makes one wonder. But Obama finally offers the real excuse.

But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist in the African-American community today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of slavery and Jim Crow.

Jim Crow laws existed in 17 states: AL, AZ, AR, FL, GA, KY, LA, MD, MS, NM, NC, OK, SC, TX, VA, WV and  WY. The Jim Crow laws did NOT exist throughout the entire United States. In fact they did not exist in Illinois where Reverend Wright preached his hate for those many decades. The President that put an end to the Jim Crow laws was a man from Texas. His name was Lyndon Baines Johnson. And Hillary was berated and declared a race baiter for bringing this fact up by Senator Obama's campaign. In fact Senator Obama himself alluded to it. So much for his experience and capability trying to heal racial wounds.

As his speech comes toward conclusion the oratory reaches new heights, entreating us to put aside these differences and work toward the common good.

This time we want to talk about how the lines in the Emergency Room are filled with whites and blacks and Hispanics who do not have health care; who don't have the power on their own to overcome the special interests in Washington, but who can take them on if we do it together.

This time we want to talk about the shuttered mills that once provided a decent life for men and women of every race, and the homes for sale that once belonged to Americans from every religion, every region, every walk of life.

This time we want to talk about the fact that the real problem is not that someone who doesn't look like you might take your job; it's that the corporation you work for will ship it overseas for nothing more than a profit.

This time we want to talk about the men and women of every color and creed who serve together, and fight together, and bleed together under the same proud flag. We want to talk about how to bring them home from a war that never should've been authorized and never should've been waged, and we want to talk about how we'll show our patriotism by caring for them, and their families, and giving them the benefits they have earned.

And yes they are beautiful words. But remember. They are words. Just words.

Indeed, when Senator Obama has been caught associating with a despicable man that he considers his spiritual advisor it is time to change the subject and discuss the "real" issues. According to him, his campaign and his followers it does not matter what Senator Obama has done. It is only what he says he will do that is important. Because this isn't about him, it's about you. Isn't that a convenient "out" for hanging out with a racist for 20 years? Because this race isn't about him. It's about someone else. And that is who we should be talking about.

Never mind that the man asking you to do this has demonstrated horrible judgment in associating with such a despicable man that used the sanctity of the church to spew his racist hatred. Never mind that the man asking you to do this has a spiritual mentor that praises and is friends with one of the most vile racist and antisemitic beings on the planet. Never mind that the man asking you to embrace racial unity is a long standing member of a black segregationalist church. And never mind that when his opponent for the Democratic nomination offers detailed solutions to help ordinary Americans as he says we must do, he tears down her character, brings up the most horrible references from her past and laughs to his audiences about it.

No. Never you mind any of that. Because this isn't about him. This is about you.

Update [2008-3-18 22:56:32 by Fleaflicker]:Juan Williams discusses the speech.

Tags: Barack Obama, Jeremiah Wright, Philadelphia, Racial Unity, racism (all tags)

Comments

165 Comments

Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Um, you missed the point of the speech.  Go back and re-read.

(but checking your diary history, distortion is your motive, so nevermind)

by neonplaque 2008-03-18 02:07PM | 0 recs
Of course

it is.  Otherwise, they'd be forced to discuss the math of the race; and frankly, we all know that this isn't a strong point for Hillary's campaign at this moment.

It was a good speech; a great speech at times.  It is getting great reviews on the networks and on the 'net.  This pushes public opinion as much as anything else.  

by Cycloptichorn 2008-03-18 02:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

If you mean what Obama"hoped" I would take away from the speech then indeed I did miss his point entirely.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 03:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Cognitive dissonance is a very strong force.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-18 04:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Very funny. Fortunately I evolved the ability to make judgments on my own. Try it sometime.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 04:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

I regret my comment.

However, am not happy by what I perceive (and, of course, my perception could be incorrect), which is that many have already made up their minds and then they do a lot of cognitive work to fit any and every event and happening into that mold.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-18 05:19PM | 0 recs
So, we should change our minds, huh?

Why?  Because he gives a speech under political pressure?  Of course, fifteen minutes of words are worth far more than a 20 year association with a vile and vulgar racist minister who is almost obscene in his denunciations of Bill and Hillary Clinton.  Or how about the fact that Obama has chosen to raise his daughters under this tradition?  That education should be a sure fire ticket for his children's journey to move beyond race and develop a tolerance and understanding of all peoples.  

by lombard 2008-03-18 05:42PM | 0 recs
Re: So, we should change our minds, huh?

Without saying what I really want to, let me just make this point:

It is not up to you to judge how anyone else raises his or her children.  

It would be BEYOND easy to make a point about the example Bill Clinton's past behavior, and Hillary's in tolerating it, has set for their child.  And that would be equally irrelevant to his quality as a President/leader and her quality as a Presidential candidate.

by freedom78 2008-03-18 09:20PM | 0 recs
Re: So, we should change our minds, huh?

It is not up to you to judge how anyone else raises his or her children.  

So Hitler youth would be ok with you?

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 09:30PM | 0 recs
Re: So, we should change our minds, huh?

Wow.

Just...wow.  Way to overdo it.  A pastor who now has about 90 seconds of offensive material on the record, and Obama taking his kids to that church is compared with the Hitler youth.

Nice.

by freedom78 2008-03-18 09:36PM | 0 recs
No. He wasn't overdoing it

Go read some old Nazi anti-semetic speeches sometime. What we've heard from Rev. Wright is on par with them.  

Typical lefty.  Only the identity of the person delivering the hate matters.  If it's a rural white Republican, it's damnable.  If it's an urban black minister, it's excusable.

by lombard 2008-03-19 08:13AM | 0 recs
Oh, p.s.

And go ahead and "say what you really want to" if that makes you feel better. I really don't care that much about your opinion of me.

by lombard 2008-03-19 08:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh, p.s.

Thanks for the offer...but I'll pass.  

You can call my side all the moronic things you can think of, but you won't catch me making Hitler references with respect to your candidate.  It truly shows how deranged some in the Clinton corner have become.

Obama's kids compared to the Hitler youth.  

Stay classy.

by freedom78 2008-03-19 12:48PM | 0 recs
I don't remember making that comparison

The other poster didn't either.  He merely asked where you would draw the line at not passing judgment on organizations that one chose for their children.

What I said was that some of Wright's speeches were no less inflammatory that some of those old fashioned Jew hating Nazi speeches.

by lombard 2008-03-19 01:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Believe this or not:

I tried desperately to "get" Obama. Many of the people I communicated with and many I know support him. I watched his announcement speech in Springfield and was impressed with his gift of oratory. But when I examined his record I didn't see anything that seemed Presidential to me. We do share a common bond in that we both were against this war from the start. But once he made it to the US Senate he didn't do anything to stop the war.

The thing that took me over the edge with him and which sealed my decision not to support him is the Democrat for a Day campaign. I remember reading that memo stating that if republicans wanted to defeat Hillary because she is so polarizing they should register as a Democrat, vote for him and then afterward change their Registration back to being a Republican. As a hard core Democrat to me that is heresy. Ask the republicans to help choose our nominee? I think not! So yes, I did make my  mind up about Obama a long while ago. And his lack of good judgment has only gotten worse since.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 07:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Apparently not, b/c you're throwing right-wing stereotypes out there as if they were the true sentiments of the community.

by nklein 2008-03-18 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Another excellent diary.

Rec'd.

by cmugirl90 2008-03-18 02:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Thank you!

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 03:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Another hit-piece on a Democrat. The far Right are pleased to have you doing their work for them.

by LandStander 2008-03-18 02:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Why is it a hit piece to point out hypocrisy?  Obama's camp and supporters have never stifled themselves when calling out Hillary for some transgression - real or imagined.  They never worried about how it might play in the fall - is that because they've been so arrogant from the beginning that they assumed she would never make it to the fall?

And do you think this kind of stuff is going to stay hidden?

by cmugirl90 2008-03-18 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

There are ways to point out problems with a candidate without resorting to hit pieces.

by LandStander 2008-03-18 02:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

It is an opinion piece. Every time your guy gets in trouble he pulls out the "can't we all just get along" card and attempts to look pure and above the fray.

Your dude started this. Then went after Hillary on Ferraro demanding that she disassociate herself from her. Then when asked to do the same with Wright we get the "can't we all just get along" stuff.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 03:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

It's always ok for you folks to say the most horrendous things about Hillary. Someone returns the favor in a factual way toward your guy and you accuse them of siding with the right wingers. At least we know that the hypocrisy starts at the top of this campaign. It filters down through to the adorants as well.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 03:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

This line of argument reminds me of a seven year old

But he did it too!!!!

by politicsmatters 2008-03-18 04:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

It's called turnabout is fair play. Politics 101.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 04:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

But there's nothing persuasive about it. It's just cheerleading.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-18 05:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train
I agree with the main post. I had (notice the tense) a distant relative who was brilliant and did many good works. He was an environmentalist and engaged in positive activities to keep our planet functioning in a natural way. He was kind to me, brought a bottle of wine or flowers when he dropped by to visit. He played with the dogs, and they loved him. He could belt out a good song as he pounded an oldie but goodie on the piano. He had a great place on a lake where we could stay any time. It had a speed boat and the kids would love to fish there. But then one day it came out. He detested Mexicans--called them lazy and stupid, and they should all go home. He said their language was simple and inferior which is why they would never rise above "their place." The first attempt is to have a rational discussion. No, that banged up against his racist armor and bounced back onto me. One tries a couple more times. Then comes the reckoning. It's a painful decision, but you let go. No one should endure that toxicity. You cannot expose your family to it. You just cannot.
by The Smoldering Crone 2008-03-18 02:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

I agree, The children are the ones getting harmed the most by this church.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 03:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Some of us find ways to maintain relationships with people who say hurtful things because we value those relationships.  

I am not going to judge you because you can't do that as I would hope that you would not judge others because they made a different choice.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-18 04:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Some people are masochists. Some are psychopaths. Not sure why they all seem to support Obama.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 04:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

A Clinton supporter (who advocates "turn-about is fair play" and "your dude started this") making snide pop-psychology diagnoses about people who choose forgiveness when faced with a familial relationship that appears confusing, even dysfunctional and "masochistic", to outsiders....

...nah, too easy. Why sink to Fleaflicker's level by pointing out Hillary Clinton's repeated public humiliations at her husband's near-constant philandering over the course of their marriage?

by BlueinColorado 2008-03-18 05:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

I know women (yes, lots of women and really not any men) who have said that they can't understand why Hillary didn't leave Bill and that makes them not trust her.

I have always said that marriages are complicated and she had a commitment to the marriage as an entity in itself.

In much the same way, one can have a commitment to a relationship with another person or to an organization.  This is what Obama expressed.  

Personally, I appreciated the sophistication and nuance Obama offered today, just as I have rejected those who called for simple responses by Hillary to Bill's repeated humiliations of her and his breaking of his marriage vows.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-18 05:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

I couldn't care less about the Clintons' sex life. It's none of my business and they seem to love and respect each other, whatever conventions they've chosen to ignore. More power to'em.

I was commenting on Fleaflicker and all the other vile little cretins who are distorting Obama's speech to make it look like he used his grandmother as rhetorical prop. Their hatred (and in this case, as is now pretty obvious, racism*) is astounding.

*How many jumping around , clapping and shouting, high fiving parishioners do you have to see to convince you. /Fleaflicker

by BlueinColorado 2008-03-18 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

My understanding is that Chelsea is the reason Hillary stuck it out. But you know, Bill Clinton isn't a racist. And he didn't blame an entire race of people for anything. Only Wright did that. If Obama wants to forgive him for his transgressions that is his right. But don't expect the rest of us to do so.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 05:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Your hate-filled and vile invective doesn't change the fact that Obama is the Democratic nominee and will run against McCain in the fall. Time to make a choice, Fleaflicker.

by amiches 2008-03-18 02:44PM | 0 recs
So says you.

I don't recall that Clinton has ceded. Gotta link, oh arrogant one? And far be it from me to speak for fleaflicker, but it could just be possible that the diarist HAS made a different choice, a better choice.

by Soitgoes 2008-03-18 02:56PM | 0 recs
Re: So says you.

She hasn't ceded, but she cannot win. Michigan and Florida will not re-vote, supers will not support someone who hasn't won the delegate race and the popular vote, and it's almost a statistical impossibility that Clinton gains enough votes in the next contests to overtake his lead in that metric. The race is over.

There are thousands of very important things we as a party need to begin taking on. You can continue to focus on ephemera like a few choice quotes from an angry black preacher, or you can help attack the issues we as a country are faced with in the next decade or so.

by amiches 2008-03-18 03:03PM | 0 recs
Re: So says you.

Your guy can't win either. Not with delegates.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 03:36PM | 0 recs
Re: So says you.

Yes. The point is that she has not ceded and this race is not over. The Obama camp can make all the racist claims they want but when Senator Obama himself is caught in a racist scandal he comes out with the "can't we discuss the real issues" crap. I don't accept it and I don't buy it. It is a distraction from the facts of his character and his famous sound judgment.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 03:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

I don't support this hypocrite that is attempting to perform a coup on the Democratic party by having Republicans vote for him and determine our nominee. I made that choice long ago.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 03:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

If you want to keep Obama out of the Oval Office, then you had better start working for John McCain now. The Democratic primary race is over.  

by amiches 2008-03-18 03:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Thats what people like you, actually probably you under a different name, said about March 5th.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 03:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Nope, I've only had one name here.

You've seen the math, you've seen what has to happen for Hillary to win the nomination, and you, at least in your head, understand that that scenario is at best highly unlikely.

As I said above, if your goal this cycle is to keep Obama out of the Oval Office, go work for McCain. He's the next opponent.

by amiches 2008-03-18 03:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

I got your for us or against us message the first time you said it.

So nice of you to embrace The Bush Doctrine.

How very "new politics" of you.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 04:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

That's not at all what I said, and you know it. I said that if your goal was to keep Obama from being President (which is certainly your right) then you should work for the person that still has a chance to defeat him, John McCain.

If you don't think either should be President, then don't vote, which is also your right.

If and when you decide to support the Democrats this fall, we'll be happy to have you back. That's all I'm saying.

by amiches 2008-03-18 05:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Can I see a link describing Obama's "coup" plan, please?

You make a strong claim--that Republicans are voting for BHO in order to determine who our nominee will be--I'd like to see equally strong evidence.

by shef 2008-03-18 06:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

I think I have the actual document somewhere. I will look. I know that Taylor Marsh has it.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 07:11PM | 0 recs
The Proof

Here ya go. This was distributed by the Obama precinct captain in Nevada.

Photobucket

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 07:44PM | 0 recs
Re: The Proof

I do--and I mean this without snark--appreciate you taking the time to run this down and get back.

Here ya go. This was distributed by the Obama precinct captain in Nevada.

If this is "the proof", then really what you have demonstrated is that this Obama precinct captain was willing to use these kinds of tactics.

You're claiming--and I'm assuming here--that the Obama campaign--the institution--is trying to get republicans en masse to disingenuously vote for Obama.

This simply doesn't prove this. Frankly, even granting that the Obama campaign is full of malicious, despicable people who are willing to do anything to win, you'd have a long way to go in order to demonstrate some kink of conspiracy on their part in order to get Repubs. to vote for them.

Nevertheless, I do thank you for providing this in response to my question.

by shef 2008-03-18 08:45PM | 0 recs
Re: The Proof

Actually I prefaced the flyer with that phrase because that is where this particular flyer came from. I thought I had a copy of the original document and I did. This one came from Nevada. The same program was repeated in Florida as well as in many other states including Ohio. It is currently being done in Pennsylvania.

I realize that you won't change your mind about this regardless of the proof presented. Proof simply isn't good enough for you if there is some fancy way of making excuses for what's happening. And honestly i don't think you give a damn what Obama does to get elected. It seems to be a pattern among Obama supporters.

You asked for proof and I provided it. I will not entertain your insincere requests again.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 09:37PM | 0 recs
Re: The Proof

The same program was repeated in Florida as well as in many other states including Ohio. It is currently being done in Pennsylvania.

Okay, FF, if this is a program endemic across the Obama campaign, then you need to demonstrate that. This is not proof because it doesn't demonstrate that. You make a specific claim here, again, not backed up by provided evidence, that this is being done in Pennsylvania. If you want me to change my mind, then change it. Don't back up your un-evidenced statements with more un-evidenced statements and then blow me off as someone who doesn't give a damn what Obama does to get elected."

Frankly, what you said is insulting, as I've done everything in my power to demonstrate that, yes, if you provide solid evidence for claims of a massive, nation-wide effort by the Obama camp to disingenuously get Rs to mess with our primary, then I will believe you. This is the bar I'm setting--the same bar I've had since my initial comment:

You make a strong claim--that Republicans are voting for BHO in order to determine who our nominee will be--I'd like to see equally strong evidence.

If asking for evidence of a nation-wide campaign to you is "a fancy way of making excuses", then I'd say that you're the one unwilling to change your mind, not me.

by shef 2008-03-19 02:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

So I suppose you've also stopped supporting Hillary Clinton, since one of her most prominent surrogates (and a former President of the United States) went on Limbaugh's show to get Republicans to vote for her and determine our nominee?

Or is it only hypocritical when you get people to vote for you who actually like you?

by Texas Gray Wolf 2008-03-18 07:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Perhaps if you were telling the truth I would pay attention to you. You aren't.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 09:38PM | 0 recs
Your attack on that church

is real bs.

I favor neither Obama nor Clinton, but I know racist bullshit when I read it.

You demean Hillary Clinton, a good woman who spent much of her life fighting for racial justice, with this diary.

by TomP 2008-03-18 02:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Your attack on that church

Racist bullshit is the stuff that comes out of this church. How many videos do you need to see to prove it. How many jumping around , clapping and shouting, high fiving parishioners do you have to see to convince you.

I have had so many people call me a racist for pointing out the hypocrisy of Obama's race baiting that it doesn't even bother me now.

I checked out some of your other comments and you don't believe that blacks CAN be racists. So I don't consider your point of view any more valid that Reverend Wright's.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 03:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Your attack on that church

Oh my -- high fiving !!!  Nasty stuff that.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-18 04:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Your attack on that church

It is when they high five racist statements.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 05:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Your attack on that church

Saying that white people control the power structure in this country is not racism, it is acknowledging reality.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-18 05:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Your attack on that church

When their race is used as the reason for their control it certainly is.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Your attack on that church

uhh...do you think it was just some random thing?

by amiches 2008-03-18 05:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Your attack on that church

In this day and age? Yes.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 07:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Your attack on that church

Wait - let me get this straight. You think that yes, white people do have advantages over black people, but that it's not because the system benefits white people, but rather that it's random?

You're a truly laughable, hateful individual.

by amiches 2008-03-19 02:36AM | 0 recs
The Obamas have a lot more money and power

than the overwhelming majority of white people in this country.  Reverend Wright has a lot more power (and maybe more money) than most of them, too.

The PC sociologists have taught you well. Just assume that anyone who is black is oppressed and anyone who is white is privilaged.

I'm also one of those white people who lived in predominately black neighborhoods for a number of years in my life.  Let me just say that one in my position had to develop pretty thick skin.

by lombard 2008-03-18 05:51PM | 0 recs
Re: The Obamas have a lot more money and power

Stop posting to progressive blogs if this is what you believe. Seriously, it's time to go back to RedState.

by amiches 2008-03-19 02:38AM | 0 recs
Who are you to determine who is a Democrat?

We don't all have to be lapdogs for leftists.  If we were, we'd never win another election.

by lombard 2008-03-19 08:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Who are you to determine who is a Democrat?

You may be a Democrat, but you certainly aren't a progressive, and this is a progressive blog. Go back to RedState.

by amiches 2008-03-19 04:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

The most amazing thing to me is that he presented himself as the solution to healing racial divides, then in the next breath attacked Ferraro by equating her with Wright. He is so comfortable with hypocrisy that it is astounding and confounding.

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-18 03:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

And then he also called out his own supporters for focusing on the ephemera like Ferraro. This was an even-handed, complex look at race relations in America, and I'm sorry that you were spending so much time looking for the "gotcha" moment to understand that.

by amiches 2008-03-18 03:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

One thing you are right about is that it was his gotcha moment. The rest of the speech was meaningless nonsense, but the attack on Ferraro was substantive.

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-18 03:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Consider my jaw dropped. Obama articulated the progressive viewpoint on race in America better than anyone else has ever been able to, except maybe Dr. King, and this speech was better than a lot of King speeches.

He acknowledged the complexity of the issue at hand, rejected Wright's comments while explaining their root and context, and explained racism as not the attribute of a skinhead or a Black Panther but as a demon common to all of us.

Why do you post here? Is it just to enjoy the echo chamber? Or are you honestly looking to hear from the other side?

by amiches 2008-03-18 03:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Now amiches, consider my jaw dropped:

Obama articulated the progressive viewpoint on race in America better than anyone else has ever been able to, except maybe Dr. King

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-18 04:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

That does seem to be the consensus outside of Rush and mydd.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-18 04:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Can you believe this person actually believes this?

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 04:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Can you name someone else that has done better since Dr. King died? I admittedly am not very old, so I may not be remembering someone, but I did major in 20th century history and did my thesis on the civil rights movement.

Care to enlighten us?

by amiches 2008-03-18 05:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

How about Bill Clinton?

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-18 06:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Imagine that! :)

by amiches 2008-03-18 06:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

except maybe Dr. King

A truly arrogant audacious statement.

And I suppose that Reverend Wright articulated Christianity better than anyone except maybe Jesus?

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 04:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Again, if you can name someone who did a better job since 1968 at explaining the nuances, complications, and ambiguities surrounding American race relations, I'd love to hear that person's speeches.

Looking forward to it.

by amiches 2008-03-18 05:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

I would say Spike Lee explores those nuances most honestly and perceptively. But for speeches Jesse Jackson knows the history better and is not nearly as self-serving, his speeches stand the test of time. And of course few have a better grasp of the whole picture of race in America better than Bill Clinton.

I find this speech of Obama's pretty thin gruel in comparison. This is obviously not a comprehensive survey of people who do a better job on the subject than Obama, just the people I personally have heard speak. No doubt a person who follows politics and race relations more closely would have much better examples since 1968.

by souvarine 2008-03-18 05:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Thanks. I'm familiar with both of those speeches and love them too - Spike Lee films as well. But in those speeches I don't see much on the nuance and contradictions of racism - understanding how the hatred and mistrust affects all sides involved.

I'm sorry you weren't inspired by his speech today - but I think we can agree that nothing Barack Obama says will ever inspire you.

by amiches 2008-03-18 06:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

No, we can't even agree on that. Obama's Iowa speech got me (this speech borrows pretty liberally from that), and of course his 2004 convention speech got me. He's a good speaker.

by souvarine 2008-03-18 06:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

It is obvious from watching the speech that it comes from his head and not his heart.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 07:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

and he's like Lincoln too, but with more experience!

by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor 2008-03-18 08:41PM | 0 recs
See

You're still missing the point.

Hell - Obama supporters that want to keep attacking Ferraro miss the point to.

You're stuck in this morass where Jeremiah Wright, a flawed man who said something regrettable -- but has a lifetime of service to his community (and try finding me someone without an ax to grind who thinks he's some sort of monster) -- is a monster.

Obama's saying we ought to move beyond using petty caricatures and taking the easy way out.

He wasn't attacking Ferraro, the person - he was defending her in the same breath he was defending Wright, the person.

For someone who is supposedly "all talk and rhetoric" -- he was telling us that we need to move beyond words.

Like I said in another thread - I personally take it to heart.  I was among those attacking Ferraro's choice of words; I think I tried to avoid attacking Ferraro, the person - but I take the point that we need to stop fumbling for the easy soundbite and the easy sound bite analysis.

I'm sorry you're unable to see past your preconceptions.

by zonk 2008-03-18 03:08PM | 0 recs
Re: See

If he want's people to stop attacking Ferraro then the best way to do it is to stop attacking Ferraro, and tell his minions to do the same.

The rest of your logic just has my head spinning as much as Obama did a few hours ago. Something about burning down the house to keep everyone warm and cozy, right?

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-18 03:17PM | 0 recs
Re: See

I guess I'll just respond with what I'm pretty much settling on as my "agree to disagree"....

There are none so deaf as s/he who will not hear.

by zonk 2008-03-18 03:22PM | 0 recs
Re: See

Great, I agree we disagree.

And, from Barack Obama I've heard quite enough.

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-18 03:24PM | 0 recs
Re: See

I do not think Rev Wright is a monster.... I do not think ANYONE is a monster (isn't the definition of a liberal "one who believes that noone is a monster"!)

My beef with Obama is not that he did not denounce and reject his church and pastor for hateful/incendiary speech, but that he stood silently and watched.  You can love your pastor but you can also chide them when they say hateful things... indeed, if you love them, you will chide them.  He could have chided his pastor in any number of ways.  He could have walked out, or had a quiet word afterwards.  Apparently, he did nothing.

As an aside, I am also miffed that he was claiming (but is no longer claiming, it seems) that he had not heard anything incendiary till recently.  

by SevenStrings 2008-03-18 03:21PM | 0 recs
Re: See

...how do you know that he did nothing? You couldn't possibly know that.

by amiches 2008-03-18 03:23PM | 0 recs
Re: See

You are right, I dont KNOW that.  I also DONT know that we evolved from monkeys... I only have a reasonable suspicion.

And based on how his story has evolved, I have a reasonable suspicion that he did nothing.  If you know of ANYTHING he did do, or have any circumstancial evidence to add, then please do so.

Until then, I have my reasonable suspicions.

by SevenStrings 2008-03-18 03:37PM | 0 recs
Re: See

You're certainly welcome to have suspicions, but don't pretend like they're based on anything other than your own prejudices, and certainly don't qualify them as facts.

by amiches 2008-03-18 03:39PM | 0 recs
Ummm...

I guess when some groundbreaking scientist writes on "Origin of Obama", you're point becomes valid.

I mean... sheesh... The Theory of Evolution = The Theory of Obama is black nationalist America hater?

With my new attitude, I've decided I'll just be amused by this statement, rather than pissed.

by zonk 2008-03-18 03:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Ummm...

Wow, talk about jumping to conclusions...and  I had assumed that you were a reasonably intelligent person!

I chose the theory of evolution for a reason ~ it can never be proven true, but it can be easily proven wrong.  All you have to do is point out one fact which can disprove it, and 10000 other facts that are consistent with that theory go out the window.

The theory of evolution is the most famous example of such "theories".  Perhaps I should have cited the (now disproven) theory that diffraction limits dictate the size of the smallest lens be greater than the wavelenght of light (approximately!)... but then you would not have known what I was talking about, would you ?

by SevenStrings 2008-03-18 03:59PM | 0 recs
So you're

equating what began with Darwin's work -- a long, thorough study using scientific methods...a theory that has more than a century of rigorous study.

You feel its appropriate to compare that to your theory on Obama and his church?

Did I miss something?  Did you do your PHD dissertation on "Obama, Jeremiah Wright, and their relationship"?

How in the world can you compare the two... Because theories cannot be proven?

Hell... you can't prove or disprove "intelligent design", either.

Sooo... how about if I say:  No - I think your theory is more like Intelligent Design, a crackpot theory by someone predisposed to such nonsense?

by zonk 2008-03-18 04:04PM | 0 recs
Re: So you're

I hope you are just pretending to be stupid, and that this is not a permanent state of affairs with you.

#1 I am not equating my suggestion (theory) that Obama heard something incendiary, and did not do anything with the theory of evolution.  That comparison is entirely in your head.  

#2  I offered you a prominent example of a theory, just to set the bar really really low for you.  Anyone can knock down a theory with one dissonant fact.  I am giving you a chance to knock down my "theory" with one dissonant fact.

#3  By your pursuit of a worthless argument (that I am equating my theory with the theory of evolution), you seem to be trying to avoid the main issue:  do you have any facts, or circumstantial evidence to counter what I suggested.  And, I have to admit...I am wondering why ?

#4 "Intelligent design" cannot be disproven!  THAT  is the point of intelligent design.  THAT ALONE is the point of intelligent design.  I am surprised you did not know that.

#5  It is PhD, not PHD.  More precisely, it is Ph.D., but PhD would be acceptable too.

by SevenStrings 2008-03-18 05:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Ummm...

Just a point in fact.  Evolution is not a theory, it's a fact.  There are recorded cases of evolution in bird species in the last 200 years.  What is a theory is the evolution of man.

by shalca 2008-03-18 05:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Ummm...

I hate to offer a minor correction, but...

what has been proven (by directed evolution, and a number of similar experiments) is that things CAN evolve.... even that "we" can evolve.  It has not yet been "proven" that we evolved the way suggested by the theory of evolution. !!

by SevenStrings 2008-03-18 06:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Ummm...

Correction to your correction, natural evolution has been observed in peppered moths and in mice as well - http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.ht ml?res=9B0CE0D71538F934A25755C0A9659C8B6 3

Not a directed experiment, but a scientific observation.

by shalca 2008-03-18 06:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Ummm...

I guess you can say that evolution is more than "a theory", but it is still not proven.

But thank you for that link...makes fascinating reading.

by SevenStrings 2008-03-18 08:18PM | 0 recs
OK

Despite the fact that we need to stop playing gotcha...

Obama was NOT in church for the youtube video that sparked this controversy.  

You're trying to do exactly what Obama was saying we shouldn't be doing... take the easy way out.  conflate a 60 second clip with "incendiary", then try to play with the false logic of "incendiary" being a giant blanket you can toss... Obama admits hearing something incendiary - and he didn't walk out.  

So what -- now we need him to define which incendiary thing he heard?  Then we play the game of whether that particular incendiary statement met the "walk out" standard?

Do Obama supporters then need to catalogue 30 years of sermons?  Should we index them all, crunch the numbers -- and compare them to the "incendiary"' statements?   Is there a scale we can use, a common vernacular of judgment?

You're trying to wonkify this -- you're trying take a clip, make it into a 30 year blanket, then wrap Obama in that 30 year blanket.  What's worse -- you're trying to confuse a 'spiritual adviser' with some sort of "patriotism adviser".

Wright is a pastor.  He's not a senator, a CEO, or anything like that.... Wright says "GOD DAMN AMERICA"?

As Bob Dylan once alluded -- God is NOT on "our side".   Wright's influence on Obama seems pretty limited with a spiritual relationship with God.

It seems pretty clear that Obama is able to separate his relationship with GOD from his love for his country.

Can you?

Are should we all be attending megachurches that love to show stirring videos, juxtaposing fighter jets with crosses, American flags with Jesus, and all the other nonsense?

by zonk 2008-03-18 03:31PM | 0 recs
Re: OK

#1:  You do not KNOW if he was, or if he was not in Church for those YouTube sermons.  His denial is actually a non-denial denial (he was not in the pew, or some such nonsense).  If you have any evidence that supports your categorical statement, then I would LOVE to see it

#2:  I am not trying to conflate anything: I already told you I did not think Rev. Wright is a monster.  And as to who is taking the easy way out ~ I would suggest that you are.  Race relations is not something that can be solved with one speech.  My beef with Obama is for something that you pointed out: he heard something incendiary, and he did not walk out (or do anything else).  You do not question why, but I do ?

#3:  Yes, I do need an answer as to why he heard his pastor say something incendiary, and not register even the minimal protest... up until it became necessary (i.e., at the beginning of his Presidential campaign).

#4:  You are welcome to catalogue Wright's sermons; his sermons do not interest me, actually.    I am sure that, in his time, he has helped plenty of old ladies cross the street.  I already told you I did not think he was a monster.

#5:  Again, my beef is that Obama did not register  any opposition to Wright's incendiary language..not with Wright himself.

#6:  I do not comment on my relationship (or lack thereof) with God ~ I am a private citizen.  You are being arrogant, if you feel entitled to ask that question.  

by SevenStrings 2008-03-18 03:50PM | 0 recs
Re: OK

Whatever.

So we have to play this game.

OK.  What "incendiary statement" offends you.

Obviously we need to take this point by point.

by zonk 2008-03-18 03:54PM | 0 recs
Re: OK

Hmmm...I am not interested in this "game" (as you put it).

I have a simple theory:  Obama heard some incendiary statements (which even you seem to be admitting that he probably did) AND did nothing.

I am more interested in the sort of game where you offer me any circumstantial evidence to knock that theory down.

That evidence could be, for example, something like: Obama said this to Rev. Wright in response to ...

by SevenStrings 2008-03-18 08:24PM | 0 recs
Historical Hypocrisy

"I understand MSNBC has suspended Mr. Imus," Obama told ABC News, "but I would also say that there's nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group. And I would hope that NBC ends up having that same attitude."

And yet it took Obama OVER a year to sack the good Reverend. That doesn't strike you as the least bit hypocritical? Or is this YET ANOTHER fine example of the Obama double standard.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 03:56PM | 0 recs
Re: See

Silence is generally taken as agreement.

by Ga6thDem 2008-03-18 04:32PM | 0 recs
Re: See

Like he did not denounce and reject his long-time friend, mentor and contributor Rezko.

by oh puhleeze 2008-03-18 09:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Yeah, his equating Ferraro and Wright in one breath and condemning Ferraro and embracing Wright in the next is abhorrent and hypocritical.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 03:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

I love this spin. Absolutely love it. It's amazing.

A straightforward reading of the speech tells you that Obama said that Ferraro was not someone who harbored a deep-seated racial bias.

But if you stand on your head and squint, you can make it into an attack on Ferraro.

I see quite a lot of people out there praising Obama for ending the infighting and giving Ferraro honorable recognition. I hear it on talk shows, when people discuss the speech.

And then I come here... only here... and somehow it's an attack.

I guess it's just ingrained at this point. If Obama says it, it must be nasty and an attack, even if it requires mental gymnastics to make it so.

by Texas Gray Wolf 2008-03-18 07:28PM | 0 recs
Feel your pain
I understand the frustration. As a supporter of John Kerry I watched him lose control of the conversation and get attacked on his strengths. Hillary too is losing on what should be her strength: that she cares for the common person. Her message is getting eclipsed by the drama of Obama and his life story.
But then that is Obama's gift: to take a weakness and turn it into his strength. Mr.Wright is helping him keep the focus on himself.
by LibDem 2008-03-18 03:23PM | 0 recs
sinking ship

I'll wave to Obama from dry land as I watch his sinking ship.

by grlpatriot 2008-03-18 03:54PM | 0 recs
Re: sinking ship

And I will be dancing in the streets singing the Hallelujah Chorus at the top of my lungs.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 03:57PM | 0 recs
Re: sinking ship

The bitterness in your comment is understandable. To have such a well prepared policy intellect who suffered a lifetime of  humiliations from her husband to get this point and then be defeated by a superior political talent must be frustrating.

by LibDem 2008-03-18 05:39PM | 0 recs
wink

;)

by grlpatriot 2008-03-18 06:31PM | 0 recs
Re: wink
Why talk when you can nod
Why nod when you can wink..
by LibDem 2008-03-20 03:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

That is exactly what happened. The facts and the time line support it.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 03:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Yup. That crafty Obama. He knew that a story that had been in the media for months would explode about a week after Ferraro made some decidedly inflammatory comments. Of course, this is Hillary-partisan-land, so the conventional wisdom is that the comments weren't inflammatory, of course not... even though Hillary Clinton denounced them... but of course they couldn't have been, because they said something negative about Obama and anything negative about Obama must be true and right, even if it's denounced by Hillary Clinton.

I bet he's so crafty he paid Ferraro to make those comments. Heck, I bet he paid her to do the same thing back in 1988, because he knew that this would be an issue in 2008 and wanted her to be completely ready to create a minor distraction for a much larger story, severely staining her reputation in the process.

No, wait... he actually bribed Mondale to put her on the ticket so she'd be a national figure, so she could race-bait Jesse Jackson, so she could do it again for Obama.

Maybe it's even more sinister... maybe Obama's grandmother paid Ferraro's parents to get together. I bet that's it.

Seriously. Do you listen to yourself? "The facts and the timeline support it"? What facts? What timeline?

by Texas Gray Wolf 2008-03-18 07:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Undies...you've done it again. Masterful. Now can you please have Chris, Keith, PBS and the rest of the Obama-fawners read and report? Oh...they're biased and won't do it? I'm for truth, and may the truth win out...this election is too important...we need a "big girl" to do this job.

by susanclare 2008-03-18 04:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

No way, Chris' leg is tingling and Keith is mashing up his Obama=MLK+JFK Special Comment at this very instant.

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-18 04:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

"Need a big girl"? Hmmm... sounds suspiciously sexist to me ... but of course, I guess we know that all the bias and hate is only on the Obama side. (You know how those blacks are...) /snark

by brucearmstrong1 2008-03-18 08:15PM | 0 recs
This country was founded on racist genocide

That's a fact. Between the destruction of the Native Americans to slavery, the most historically important thing this country did at its founding was the destruction of millions of brown people. The whole kicking out the British thing was great if you were white and male and owned land, but for everybody else it didn't change a goddamn thing. I can't believe you're trying to weasel away from that historical legacy and make it seem cookoo and out of line to talk about. It bugs me out seeing liberals and progressives who refuse to accept that it's at least a plausible argument that the country has been run by racist white people for 400 years.

by Etchasketchist 2008-03-18 04:25PM | 0 recs
Re: This country was founded on racist genocide

Well, that is certainly true. Is that what you heard Obama say today?

by MediaFreeze 2008-03-18 04:30PM | 0 recs
No

I'm not talking about Obama. I'm talking about Rev. Wright's facts. The bold ones up there that I'm supposed to be so freaked out about. I don't know how anyone couldn't condemn the crimes that went down at this nation's founding. Every time we sanctify our founding fathers like they could do no wrong and pretend that white people have been totally awesome forever! it's an insult to the millions of people of color who died and suffered so that this nation could be born. And when self-satisfied white people get all high and mighty and "condemn" "racist" Rev. Wright and don't give a fuck about real racism in this country, I just want to puke all over myself. It's so pathetic. Like it was so awesome to be a black person in Illinois in the 60's even though they didn't have Jim Crow laws. Yuck. Give me a break. I'm from Lancaster, PA. The KKK still has parades where I'm from.

by Etchasketchist 2008-03-18 04:44PM | 0 recs
Re: No

Unfortunately, Wright didn't stick to the facts. He went to vicious attacks on how Bill "did 'us' like he did Monica", God** America, the silly assertion , which is by the way, not fact that America was responsible for 9/11 and that the White Americans are somehow responsible for the infecting of Black people with AIDS. What should scare you is that these are not facts and are motivated by hatred.

What was fact is that yes, America is guilty of many wrong doings to the poor, women and non-whites, but many of the things that Wright said are NOT true. These are the things that concern voters. There aren't many countries that are innocent of doing a disservice to fellow citizens. Most countries are guilty.

I don't know if Wright is a racist, but he certainly did not speak completely with fact. To suggest that he said facts is worrisome.

by HillaryKnight08 2008-03-18 05:07PM | 0 recs
A preacher not sticking to the facts!?!

Oh no! What'll we tell the children?

by Etchasketchist 2008-03-18 05:59PM | 0 recs
Re: A preacher not sticking to the facts!?!

I was responding to the fact that its seems that just because he said some facts means that the rest of his comments were not somehow racist. Yes, his remarks were racist regardless of any fact that was mixed with them.

by HillaryKnight08 2008-03-18 06:36PM | 0 recs
Re: No

And when self-satisfied white people get all high and mighty and "condemn" "racist" Rev. Wright and don't give a fuck about real racism in this country, I just want to puke all over myself. It's so pathetic. Like it was so awesome to be a black person in Illinois in the 60's even though they didn't have Jim Crow laws. Yuck. Give me a break. I'm from Lancaster, PA. The KKK still has parades where I'm from.

This is where you are wrong. I DO care about real racism in this country. That is exactly why Reverend Wright's racist rants are so wrong. He sees all white people as racists and personally that offends me. That he does this in a House of God offends me even more. I have stood up against racism ANY time I have witnessed in my entire life.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 05:18PM | 0 recs
Aw, poor baby

You're personally offended. That motherfucker. Let's go beat him up. He hurt your feelings!

by Etchasketchist 2008-03-18 06:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Aw, poor baby

You really are quite the ass.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 07:18PM | 0 recs
He is demonstrating

Obama's "new politics". I really did not get it until Obama backers like Etch showed me how it works.

by itsthemedia 2008-03-18 11:21PM | 0 recs
Re: This country was founded on racist genocide

As someone with very deep Cherokee roots on both sides of my family I do understand quite completely that ethnic cleansing was used in this country. Many of my relatives lost their lives on the Trail of Tears. Others stuck around and were disowned by their tribes for trying to conform with the white man. So yes, I understand the racial prejudice from a few sides.

But that does not in any way diminish why this country was created or for what it stands.

I disagree entirely with the last 13 words of your last sentence.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 05:05PM | 0 recs
Re: This country was founded on racist genocide

Ah, could we instead say that this country has been run by white MEN...and not all white men were racists.  It infuriates me when I see a statement like "racist white people for 400 years", because it is pitifully ignorant and arrogantly RACIST.  

"This country" has not been in existence for 400 years...in the 1600s, when the European colonization began, native peoples were still occupied with killing one another. And during the 1800s there were many, many white people devoted to the abolition of slavery.  My great-grandfather was a Union officer who served and died in the Civil War to end slavery.  

So don't tell me that this country has been run for 400 years by racist white people.  It is NOT a plausible argument.  It is profound indifference to the historical record.  

by miriam 2008-03-18 05:53PM | 0 recs
Re: This country was founded on racist genocide

Saying that white people control the power structure is a statement about institutions and structures, it is not a statement about individual white people.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-18 05:59PM | 0 recs
During the 1800's

there were many abolitionist white people. But they did not actually abolish slavery until after the Civil War. Therefore, they were not running the country. After the civil war, there were many white people who were against lynching and segregation. But oops, lynching and segregation was still official policy. Why's that? Oh yeah, racist white people running things. Fuck. Would don't they just stop already? Let some one else get a turn. But noooo. Racist white people just can't get enough of running the country. They're addicts. Like right now, there are plenty of non-racist white people who aren't running the country. Tons of us would love to rebuild New Orleans and get people out of those toxic FEMA trailers. Tons of us who would be happy to grant amnesty to hard working illegal immigrants who pick our fruit. But what's that in the white house? Oh no! It's a racist white person. Who's that in the majority in Congress voting against all the awesome bills the very tiny minority of non-white Congresspeople and non-racist white Congresspeople keep writing? Damnit! Racist white people. And why? Cuz their afraid that racist white people will vote them out of office. Arrgh! It's just so darn frustrating you wanna spit sometimes, y'know!

by Etchasketchist 2008-03-18 06:59PM | 0 recs
Re: This country was founded on racist genocide

Thank you!

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 07:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Thank you TexasDarlin. Your words mean a lot to me.

Yes, this is a painful subject. And it is painful to write about. I think that some here think I enjoy saying these things. I really don't. But they need to be said.

I agree with you. Our leaders need to be above the fray. After 7+ years of the absolute worst example for our children to emulate we need a leader they can look up to. Someone to set an example. And for better or worse that begins with their morality. The fact that Obama didn't fess up until confronted with damaging facts is reason enough to doubt his abilities as a leader.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 05:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Our leaders need to be "above the fray"?  Good luck finding the perfect person out there. They don't exist.  

Nor did the founders ever expect there would be.  If you read about what Madison and others said, it was that there would also be imperfect people and different interests and points of view. None of them thought that our leaders should be role models, only that they could work with others to figure out some approximation of the common good through compromise and debate.

Personally I want someone who can talk with nuance and sophistication ABOUT the fray.  And imho Obama does that.  

by politicsmatters 2008-03-18 06:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

You said "After 7+ years of the absolute worst example for our children to emulate we need a leader they can look up to."

I will leave it to someone else to comment about "the children" and the role models president provide them....

by politicsmatters 2008-03-18 06:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

And perhaps that person (gee, I wonder who you mean?) could release her tax returns, her papers from the health care task force, and her papers from the Office of the First Lady?

And before you whip out the ol right-wing talking points canard, let's remember just who is getting support from Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and the like, ok? Why, golly gee, it's Her Royal Clintonness!

by brucearmstrong1 2008-03-18 08:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

You wrote -- Whew! That sure doesn't sound like any church I ever attended. In fact, in the churches I attended it was taught that we weren't supposed to use words like "shit".

Under the principle of free exercise of religion, people can worship as they please. The vast majority of people in this county don't have the religion or the religious experience I do, but I'm not out there criticizing it.

I don't care what people do in church, whether they are evangelical pro-life, anti-gay Christians, or whatever. I am pro-choice and strongly committed to equal rights for gays and lesbians. But I care what they do when it comes to public policy.

What does any of this have to do with the policies Obama supports?  Have you seen him pursue anti-white policies?  

by politicsmatters 2008-03-18 05:31PM | 0 recs
A Hachet Job on a GREAT SPEECH

You should be ashamed.

by Lefty Coaster 2008-03-18 05:53PM | 0 recs
Re: A Hachet Job on a GREAT SPEECH

Thanks. I have exactly as much shame as Reverend Wright and Barack Obama at this very moment.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 07:21PM | 0 recs
Non-Negotiable Commitment to Africa

What happened to that line?  When I researched Obama after IA, that is the line in teh black value system that turned me off the most.  They took it off the site completely?  How strange.

Why are they changing the site around now?

by Scope441 2008-03-18 06:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

I've never written a diary and I thought to myself that maybe I should write one on race and try to explain to people on this site how racism in this country has effected the black community.  How the response to that racism in today's world could seem incendiary and racists itself to someone who has not grown up with racism.  How, despite what many would like to believe there is still an institutional racism in this country that may be difficult to see if you aren't a minority, or haven't grown up in a black community.  And finally how although a younger generation is trying to move past this, the older generation who lived through fear of lynching, fear of dying by the hands government authority throughout the country (not just the south) would never feel the same about this nation as those growing up in it today.

But my girlfriend said to me that the people I would be trying to convince would not hear me.  They don't want to be convinced.  When I see statements that Obama's speech simply equated Ferraro with Wright on the front page of MyDD, I feel that she's correct.  When I see diaries like this one that clearly ignore the substance of the speech to pick apart specific sentences, that ignore the substance of the church to allege that it's separatist, that ignore the sad and violent historical context from which these feelings evolve I begin to believe my girlfriend.

What's worse, I see the same people saying these things are people who have recommended and written really nasty, unsubstantiated diaries (one called Michelle Obama a corporate and government welfare queen, and someone tried to defend the statement as out of context.  What context does that not sound as a simply a character attack based on stereotypes?).  Then defend themselves with the dubious claim that the republicans will do worse.  I'm sorry, but I've never seen republican that's taken seriously do worse.

So yeah, the diary would have been a waste of time, because too many people here aren't interested in speaking about race honestly.  They don't even acknowledge that black people may indeed be offended about things said by Clinton surrogates independent of the Obama campaigns stance on those statements.  Too many people here aren't interested in arguing the policy differences that either candidate would bring to the white house.  Too many people here are simply interested in bringing down a candidate in any way possible, regardless of how others on this site may feel about their statements on race.

I think that's sad.
 

by shalca 2008-03-18 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

How come he did not hear those sermons on Friday yet on Tuesday he admitted that he did?  How come the Rezko fundraisers totaled $50-60,000 one week yet last week with the Chicago Tribune they added up to $250,000?  How come it is okay for his campaign to call the Clintons racists then admonishes everyone else to put that aside?  I am a little confused here since other blogs are going into raptures about this speech and my doubts are rising again.  Just so we are clear here, but does this man maybe have a credibility problem?

by Pat J 2008-03-18 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

He has NEVER said that he heard those particular sermons.

He has ALWAYS said that he heard some controversial statements.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-18 06:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

He said that he became aware that his pastor was making controversial statements at the moment he began running for President. That isn't the same thing you claim at all.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 07:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Depends on what your definition of "heard" is.

by oh puhleeze 2008-03-18 09:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Good questions.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 07:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

I see a lot of confusion about what Obama heard and when.  Hope this clarifies it:

He was not in the church during the specific incendiary statements that have been making the rounds on YouTube.  He first learned about them when he began his Presidential bid.  About a year ago, he renounced them in media interviews, which he did again last week.

He did hear Wright say other incendiary things during his twenty years there, though they were presumably not as baldly upsetting to Middle America as "God damn America".

Both of these statements can be true without contradiction, and neither contradicts anything Obama has said in his speech or his press release.  I don't know what he's said in every interview; if you can produce a quote that offers a contradiction, then I'll happily admit you have a point.

Hope this clears things up.

by jere7my 2008-03-18 10:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

"So, is he saying that because Granny said some racist things more than once during his lifetime and she is white that we can now excuse Reverend Wright?"

No, he's asking for understanding and tolerance for people who have a different life experience than we do.  Christian tolerance.  But I don't see any attempt at understanding or tolerance in this post.

I know it's easy to be polarized because this campaign is so important, and because GWB/war has gotten us so polarized.  A little tolerance would go a long way to moving the pendulum back.

by GaryK 2008-03-18 06:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

Obama never said that anyone should "excuse" anyone.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-18 06:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

I saw the "Christian tolerance" of his "spiritual mentor". I don't have to listen to him.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 07:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Throw Mamma From the Train

It's your right to be intolerant, you can damn him for his pastor, but I hope for your sake you don't have anyone close to you who has ever said anything stupid.

by GaryK 2008-03-19 07:34AM | 0 recs
That's Some Grade-A Spelunking Flea.

..I am no longer shocked at the depths (as dark, dank, and riddled with vermin and offal) to which you will lower yourself to cobble together paranoid, if not downright zany ramblings.

Your attempt here to rattle or somehow harm the Obama campaign or cause its supporters to quail, is noteworthy not for its detail or value as a politcal device, but for its lack of historical context/awareness and its regrettable lack of logical substance.

George W. Bush's National Guard record is less a work of fiction than your strange and unfortunate missive, and from this day forward, I will never read another one of your posts.

by a gunslinger 2008-03-18 08:13PM | 0 recs
Re: That's Some Grade-A Spelunking Flea.

...one final note.  At least Universal, Texas Darlin', Praxis, and Carloina Dawn will temper their posts..and responses to mine with some class and express a willingness to embrace that pesky little idea known as "reality" ona little planet we humans call "Earth"...but this Diary is so far wack-a-doodle-doo...

...I must flee for the night.

Good night and Good luck, dear reader.

by a gunslinger 2008-03-18 08:18PM | 0 recs
Re: That's Some Grade-A Spelunking Flea.

No one here thinks that a single Obama supporter will change their mind. We have all watched carefully as you defend his continual lies. We get it.

You don't care that he is a liar. You don't care that his spiritual advisor is a racist that is BFF with another racist and antisemite. In fact some of us are starting to get the impression that that is the reason you are supporting Obama to begin with.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 09:44PM | 0 recs
Re: That's Some Grade-A Spelunking Flea.

Wow.. did you just indirectly call Obama supporters racists and anti-semites?  Honestly, the supporters of both of our candidates need to cool it with this type of bile towards one another.

The majority of Obama supporters are calm, rational people.  The majority of Clinton supporters are likewise calm and rational.  Reading some of these comments is really depressing.

by thatpurplestuff 2008-03-18 09:53PM | 0 recs
Re: That's Some Grade-A Spelunking Flea.

It is bewildering how you can support a candidate with these deep personal associations. What is one supposed to think?

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-19 07:44AM | 0 recs
Here's a clue

White Americans have no idea what it means to be black in America.

And while we have come a long, long way, we still have a long way to go.

One of the most striking things about this incident is how no one defends Rev. Wright's right to speak his mind.  I think it's very telling that some Democrats are willing to play off of this for political gain.  If Rev. Wright were white, this wouldn't be an issue.

by jaywillie 2008-03-18 08:17PM | 0 recs
Mr. Wright has a right to speak his mind!

Okay, satisfied, or does it feel irrelevant?

Wright's beliefs are wrong, they're counterproductive for most of the black community and for the rest of us non-privileged people of America. We need Martin Luther King's politics now, even Obama recognizes that in his rhetoric, not Wright's.

by fairleft 2008-03-18 08:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Here's a clue

If Rev. Wright were white, this wouldn't be an issue.

I am not so sure that I agree with you about whites having no idea what it means to be black. But after the reading the above comment I know that I have no idea what it means to be a complete dumbass.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 09:47PM | 0 recs
King recognized the tragedy of segregated churches

While Wright makes separatism the bedrock value of his church. And Obama asks us to believe he didn't notice that.

by fairleft 2008-03-18 08:38PM | 0 recs
Re: King recognized the tragedy of segregated chur

He must have been too busy running for President. For decades.

by Fleaflicker 2008-03-18 09:48PM | 0 recs
Re: I've been hoodwinked!

Why did I get a lecture on race when he's got a crisis in his campaign about his judgment and about lying to the press?  

by oh puhleeze 2008-03-18 09:42PM | 0 recs
even Mike Huckabee understands

   HUCKABEE: [Obama] made the point, and I think it's a valid one, that you can't hold the candidate responsible for everything that people around him may say or do. You just can't. Whether it's me, whether it's Obama...anybody else. But he did distance himself from the very vitriolic statements.

   Now, the second story. It's interesting to me that there are some people on the left who are having to be very uncomfortable with what Louis Wright said, when they all were all over a Jerry Falwell, or anyone on the right who said things that they found very awkward and uncomfortable years ago. Many times those were statements lifted out of the context of a larger sermon. Sermons, after all, are rarely written word for word by pastors like Reverend Wright, who are delivering them extemporaneously, and caught up in the emotion of the moment. There are things that sometimes get said, that if you put them on paper and looked at them in print, you'd say "Well, I didn't mean to say it quite like that."

   JOE SCARBOROUGH: But, but, you never came close to saying five days after September 11th, that America deserved what it got. Or that the American government invented AIDs...

   HUCKABEE: Not defending his statements.

   JOE SCARBOROUGH: Oh, I know you're not. I know you're not. I'm just wondering though, for a lot of people...Would you not guess that there are a lot of Independent voters in Arkansas that vote for Democrats sometimes, and vote for Republicans sometimes, that are sitting here wondering how Barack Obama's spiritual mentor would call the United States the USKKK?

   HUCKABEE: I mean, those were outrageous statements, and nobody can defend the content of them.

   JOE SCARBOROUGH: But what's the impact on voters in Arkansas? Swing voters.

   HUCKABEE: I don't think we know. If this were October, I think it would have a dramatic impact. But it's not October. It's March. And I don't believe that by the time we get to October, this is gonna be the defining issue of the campaign, and the reason that people vote.

   And one other thing I think we've gotta remember. As easy as it is for those of us who are white, to look back and say "That's a terrible statement!"...I grew up in a very segregated south. And I think that you have to cut some slack -- and I'm gonna be probably the only Conservative in America who's gonna say something like this, but I'm just tellin' you -- we've gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told "you have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie. You have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant. And you can't sit out there with everyone else. There's a separate waiting room in the doctor's office. Here's where you sit on the bus..." And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment. And you have to just say, I probably would too. I probably would too. In fact, I may have had more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me.

   MIKA: I agree with that. I really do.

   JOE SCARBOROUGH: It's the Atticus Finch line about walking a mile in somebody else's shoes. I remember when Ronald Reagan got shot in 1981. There were some black students in my school that started applauding and said they hoped that he died. And you just sat there and of course you were angry at first, and then you walked out and started scratching your head going "boy, there is some deep resentment there."

by politicsmatters 2008-03-19 04:19AM | 0 recs

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