Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

"Trailer trash with an elite college veneer"

That's an exact quote from a poster, in reference to the Clintons, on TPM yesterday.

It's only one of the many unlovely things said by Obama supporters about the Clintons, or Hillary Clinton's supporters, over the course of this campaign.

What's the problem with the quote? Not that it will hurt the Clintons personally, it won't. But that it is a perfect, and unfortunately far from unique, example of the ugly classism of the now triumphant branch of the Democratic Party.

Such attitudes are not compatible with progressive politics. Not at all.

Take a look at the candidate himself -- the video of his "periodically""feeling down" swipe at Clinton. Watch his face; see how amused he is with himself, how shamelessly he demonstrates his disdain for his opponent, not as a competitor, but AS A WOMAN. Tell me such disdain has no repercussions for all the women who have put their trust in this party over the years or the issues they care about. Give me concrete arguments for why I should vote for this mean-spirited, self-satisfied man at the top of the ticket? Why I should continue to make monthly contributions to a party that supports this kind of behavior? Why I should devote time and energy to supporting the thoughtless, clueless sexism and classism of the people he represents?

This has nothing to do with the Clintons. Hillary Clinton was always my last choice for the nomination. She didn't win my vote, Barack Obama, by his own behavior and tactics, lost it. As for all the Democratic politicians and so-called "progressive" bloggers and supporters who defended him when he used race and gender as a campaign tactic, who have refused to stand up to what has happened in the media, who, for instance, went to bat for a media personality who suggested that Clinton had "pimped out" her daughter rather than for the Democrat who was maligned in this despicable way, they've lost my support too. No more checks, no more "contributions," no more subscriptions, no more votes. I'm done.

The Republicans have a lot of bad ideas, yet, as a business owner, if I was someone who only voted my own self-interest, I wouldn't have much to complain about from the last almost 40 years of mostly Republican rule. The only party that's really let me down is the one I've supported. It was organized Feminist agitation in the 1970s and 80s that helped create economic opportunities for me -- not the Democrats. But, did the party follow through with real support on the health care, child care and pay equity issues those feminist wanted? No.

The Iraq war has been a disaster. But one speech 6 years ago, when he had no political skin in the game, doesn't convince me that Obama is any different from the Democrats who are most responsible for his candidacy - most notably, Senator Kerry and former Senator (now lobbyist) Daschle. These are men who over their careers consistently showed themselves to be more afraid of Republican criticism of their weakness and their patriotism than afraid of the actual consequences, for real people, of their votes. A trait that Obama's compromising campaign rhetoric, and his record of ducking hard votes, has led me to suspect he shares. Plus, frankly, I'm sickened by the hypocrisy of people (many now on the Obama payroll) who initially supported the war, who did everything they could to defeat the anti-war candidate in 2004, who instead supported the candidacy of someone who voted exactly as Hillary did, and who now argue that, this time around, when the die is cast, the options limited, and both candidates basically have the same policy toward Iraq, I should punish Clinton for her vote in a way they argued against punishing Kerry. In 2004, for the sake of "getting a Democrat in the White House" I held my nose, swallowed hard, and voted for a candidate who voted for the war. I don't see any point, now, in taking a stand against that vote -- other than to reward the cynicism of Obama's operatives -- and, of course, to make it obvious that there really is no end to how many times I'm willing to be the Democrats' fool.

I come from a working class family and have always supported Labor. But let's be honest, this party started walking away from Labor close to 40 years ago with McGovern and his youthful and mostly affluent supporters. Carter let the Rust Belt rust without lifting a finger. During most of his administration, Reagan had both a Democratic congress and Senate - but they let his efforts to weaken labor continue apace. Now Obama supporters tell me that I'm abandoning Labor if I vote for Clinton because she served on Wal-Mart's Board of Directors 30 years ago, when it was still just a regional retailer? That I should, instead, vote for the man anti-labor Wall Street interests are most interested in seeing in the White House?

Frankly, I haven't had an opportunity to vote for any Democratic presidential candidate with a real Labor record since I cast my first presidential vote for Shirley Chisholm many decades ago.  And Obama doesn't change that. I long ago swallowed my disappointment with this party, its lip-service only support for, and its many betrayals of, Labor. What has mostly kept me a Democrat is the issue of race and gender equality and the family welfare issues that, in a new economy (in which Labor no longer has a real voice), I believe are essential for the survival of middle class families and a requirement for poor families hoping to move into the middle class.

But in this campaign I've seen the only Democratic president in almost half a century to stand up to the inevitable abuse caused by paying anything more than lip service to those issues -- who took care to make his administration "look like America" including an America that actually has women in it, who at least partially addressed the issue of family leave, who tried but failed to get comprehensive health care reform passed (defeated not by Republicans, who didn't yet hold the majority in Congress but by spineless fellow Democrats spooked by "Harry and Louise") but did get expanded health coverage for children, who initiated innovative small and micro-business programs that gave Americans, including many minorities, without access to the usual financing resources an opportunity to become entrepreneurs, who oversaw a huge expansion of small business and the increases in domestic job creation and wages for those at the bottom that expansion contributed to -- denigrated by Obama supporters as not only no better than, but actually worse than, Bush. Am I really supposed to support a party this stupid?

Carter and the spineless performance of the Democrats under Reagan almost drove me away from the party several years ago. It was the Clintons, as imperfect as they are, who gave me some reason to hope that the party would once again take the plight of its working class constituents seriously. But now the party is ready to embrace a standard bearer who is running against the only successful two-term Democratic president in almost half a century; while providing praise for and seeking comity with Republicans who have worked purposefully to undo those small gains. A candidate whose whole campaign has been based in denigrating the only small measure of hope the party provided for working class Americans in 30 years.

Frankly, with Obama at the head of the party, I no longer have a clue as to what the party is suppose to stand for; other than being hipper than the Republicans. His own supporters, when they are honest, admit that he isn't an economic progressive. His foreign policy doesn't differ from Clinton's (and his advisors are all former Clinton people). And, his own behavior suggests that he simply doesn't understand issues of gender and class.

In fact, insensitivity to issues of gender and class are the things that, along with actual experience, more than anything else, distinguish his campaign from Hillary Clinton's.  

For all those who refuse to see fault in Obama, and say he shouldn't be held accountable for the sexism and classism of his supporters, here is the bottom line; these are the people Obama has intentionally courted, the people he has asked to bring him to the ball. That means that he, and his party, will have to dance to their tune.

Tags: It supports classism and sexism (all tags)

Comments

326 Comments

Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Sanctimonious attitudes are the reason we lose elections. We actually need those people that Obama supporters are trashing to vote for his.

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-20 12:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Ha! What about Mark Penn belittling all the states that Hillary didn't win? Or so many of the Clinton backers calling those who back Obama "cultists?"

Love is a two-way street, ain't it?

by Bob Johnson 2008-02-20 12:53PM | 0 recs
Bob

i haven't seen you say a nice thing to a Clinton supporter in a couple of months...  and I distinctly remember you being a nice guy on Dkos.  

Take now for instance, you didn't have to say anything, but you did.  You should be a gracious winner- your candidate is ahead and more likely to be the nominee.

by linc 2008-02-20 12:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Bob

Like I wrote, it's a two-way street. To claim that only supporters of one candidate or another are the bad guys is ludicrous.

by Bob Johnson 2008-02-20 01:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Bob

Where did anyone claim that "only" the supporters of one candidates are the bad guys? Obviously there are jerks in every corner, but I can tell you as an Edwards backer who used to spend a lot of time on the Daily Kos, the jerks on the Obama side are out of control over there.  

I remember a happier time, when we all were at least marginally civil to one another and when you were one of the warmest and funniest posters on dKos. I doubt that that time will ever come again.

by Inky 2008-02-20 01:31PM | 0 recs
Couldn't agree more. n/t

by bartimaeus blue 2008-02-21 04:44AM | 0 recs
oh, bob

your nose is going to grow, and you were soo close to being a real live boy. You told me to come here, and now you're following me?  No one thinks for a second that Hillary's supporters, who blog consistently about her plans and who challenge Obama to meet them rather than say ugly things about him can hold a candle to the HIllary hate you have come to represent over at kos. If there could be one pro-HIlary diary that doesn't have a bunch of repetitive nasty remarks put up, you'd maybe have a case. Is there even one?  Do you guys even sleep? I suppose it's possible that you all have the same idea at exactly the same time and it's coincidence that so many can jump into pro-Hillary diaries before the tip jar is up, but it's kind of unlikely.  If you could only support him without saying hateful things about her and about those of us who blog for her, I'd think you might have a chance.  But it's almost never positive about him, it's negative about her. what goes, where's the hope?  

by anna shane 2008-02-20 01:37PM | 0 recs
Re: oh, bob

Current count at mydd: 4 rec'd diaries attacking Obama, 1 positive about Clinton.  Both sides have supporters who are completely irrational and rude.

by ficus1 2008-02-20 02:31PM | 0 recs
Re: oh, bob

Well, go over to Daily KOS, where it is eight to one in the other direction.  Have you made any posts complaining about that?

Frankly, the reaction that Obama supporters have over being occasionally outnumbered is very much like the reaction that Obambi has on the rare occasion when some faux journalist on MSNBC or CNN actually asks him a real question.  He screams UNFAIR.  Why, he couldn't even stand it when Paul Begala or James Carville was allowed on the network without one of his dogs there too.

by PlainWords 2008-02-20 02:51PM | 0 recs
Re: oh, bob

I'm just pointing out that the perception that Obama supporters are the only ones being negative is wrong.  Thank you for proving my point with some of the language in your post.

by ficus1 2008-02-20 05:25PM | 0 recs
anna, I'd venture a guess that I've been here

... much, much longer than you have.

Is this site exclusively Hillary backers? Should I clear that with Jerome?

by Bob Johnson 2008-02-20 05:22PM | 0 recs
Re: anna, I'd venture a guess that I've been here

There is justice in this world. I would have the final laugh of this campaign when I see Obama lose in a landslide. I have been a life long Democrat but it is people like you at daily kos who have driven me out of the party.

by indydem99 2008-02-21 03:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Bob

bull,

obama would be gone if he didnt falsely accuse bob kerry, andrew cuomo and both clintons of playing the race and race baiting.

john lewis,andrw young, charlie rangel and even jesse jackson have all said that was bullshit and that it was the obama camp that played race politics to get his 90% of the black vote.

ll never forgive him and his for that and i do think those who support obama are also culpable for those disgraceful, disgusting, deceitful false smears and attacks.

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 02:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Bob

Do you really start citing Andrew Young as a source?  Tricky territory.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-02-20 02:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Bob

If Obama tried to minimize his losses by demeaning the votes of women (who've been a majority of every Dem primary and caucus thus far, I believe), then that demo would be 90-10 against him as well.

That's why the Clinton camp is playing up the "when she's feeling down" line -- because Obama never screwed up relationships with the largest part of her base as badly as she did with his. That's fine, and if the line winds up offending a lot of women then Obama will take a deserved hit for it.

Black voters can tell just as well as anyone when they've been put down: Clinton used to be leading among African Americans, and what they did in SC (which was made an early state specifically to give black voters influence over the nomination) did her real damage. (That's why the LGBT community is not so warm to Obama despite him coming to bat for them in his MLK Jr day speech -- same dynamic.)

"I'll never forgive him" -- get over yourself.

by scvmws 2008-02-21 07:03AM | 0 recs
Re: Bob

"Coming to bat for them." Saying not to hate people is "coming to bat?" What has he done substantively for gay people? How is publicly saying that a group of people does not deserve hatred and contempt something that should inspire obeisance? Gay people know all about liberals and their lip service. Show us tangible results and we'll show you support. We're not impressed when a candidate "comes to bat" for us by saying persecution is bad. If this is considered bravery, then the bar has been set painfully low.

Your analogy is misguided. I don't think the dynamic is comparable, at least not at all in the way you claim it is. Use some other group to justify your Clintonhate rationalizing.

by dr benway 2008-02-21 10:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I'm not going to defend Penn. He's just as skanky as Axelrod. Maybe we need a whole new class of political consultants. The ones we have are terrible.

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-20 01:07PM | 0 recs
Say what you want about Axelrod...

... but he has smoked Hillary's braintrust.

by Bob Johnson 2008-02-20 01:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Say what you want about Axelrod...

with the active help of 100% of the msm.

yeah, he's brilliant.

they just hated to hear the obama camp slime the clintons from day one.

pure genius.

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 02:17PM | 0 recs
Seymour, does Clinton's campaign

... (and the candidate, herself) bear any of the burden of her failure to this point?

Or is it all someone else's fault?

by Bob Johnson 2008-02-20 02:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Seymour, does Clinton's campaign

THE MEDIA AND THEIR ACTIONS OR INACTIONS ARE AT FAULT FOR EVERY BAD THING FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS.

WHAT YOU DONT SEE IS THAT THE OBAMA MEDIA CAMPAIGN -IS- THE MSM IN ANOTHER FORM.

IF OBAMA WINS THE NOMINATION BY MIMING THE SAME MSM ATTACKS ON THE CLINTONS...

THE PRESS CORPS WINS AND OUR TEN YEAR FIGHT AGANST A PETTY, CORRUPT MSM IS LOST, POSSIBLY FOREVER.

ASK BOB SOMERBY...OR AL GORE...  

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 04:12PM | 0 recs
So Clinton's lousy campaign...

... bears no responsibility for her poor performance.

IT'S ALL JUST THE MEDIA AND THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN ACTING LIKE THE MEDIA!!!!!

Got it.

You're off the rails, Seymour. Not that that's news.

by Bob Johnson 2008-02-20 04:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Belittles FL and MI

CNN has been consistently calling them "beauty contests" as well.  This reference definitely turns me off.

by cameoanne 2008-02-20 03:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Belittles FL and MI

This is a very old term.  Perhaps you haven't followed politics long and don't know that.  All it means that you don't get delegates from the vote, sort of like a straw poll.

by mainelib 2008-02-21 06:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Belittles FL and MI

You don't know how long I've been following politics.

Doesn't matter what your definition is ... it's offensive to women and sexist.   How about we call a debate between Obama and McCain a "Testosterone Fest".

by cameoanne 2008-02-21 12:12PM | 0 recs
I don't know why some Hillary supporters

paint with such a broad brush in characterizing Obama supporters as impolite.  Most of us are just involved and concerned citizens voting and supporting the candidate we think would be best for the job.

by DreamsOfABlueNation 2008-02-20 04:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Obama would be a great at the top of the ticket .

I frankly don't understand they whole bad blood for Obama.

He has run a great race , he has packaged himself well.

Even if I think there is a lot of deception there in terms of his record , but thats a sign of a great politician.

Supporters tend to be a little overzealous.

However Obama vs Mccain , would pose a tough dilemma for quite a few democrats I know , including me.

Both of them are great in their own ways.

by lori 2008-02-20 12:47PM | 0 recs
Re: A little deception is the sign of a great

maybe deception isn't the right word.

At least not George Bush type deception .

Just an ability to get people to focus on something else apart from an issue that might be less appealing.

by lori 2008-02-20 12:52PM | 0 recs
Re: I think obama is very much a Bush

Bah. You know nothing about him except your biases.

He is remarkably consistent, even if he is not enough of a partisan for me.

by Bob Johnson 2008-02-20 12:57PM | 0 recs
Re: I think obama is very much a Bush

bahb ack.

for his own benefit, he portrayed and slandered bob kerry, cuuomo and the clintons as racists.

he is a deceiver.

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 02:21PM | 0 recs
Re: I think obama is very much a Bush

Links to sources please. . .

by shalca 2008-02-20 02:57PM | 0 recs
by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 03:47PM | 0 recs
Re: I think obama is very much a Bush

Seymour, linking back to blog posts that link to other blog posts does not constitute proof of your statements.

by Bob Johnson 2008-02-20 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: I think obama is very much a Bush

What utter nonsense.

by fugazi 2008-02-20 08:04PM | 0 recs
I agree. An empty suit with a "Me"...

world view.

by Shazone 2008-02-20 01:49PM | 0 recs
I pray that she runs

as a third in the general. Please Hillary, save us from another savior.

by JimR 2008-02-20 02:52PM | 0 recs
Re: I pray that she runs

If she does, that assures us McCain.  And the substantive issues on which Obama will be better than McCain are too many to count.

Come on, keep your eye on the substance, not the style or the packaging.  

Your suggestion is just not constructive.

by bartimaeus blue 2008-02-21 04:54AM | 0 recs
Re: I think obama is very much a Bush

No. That's just plain wrong. Obama will be a very, very different president than Bush, if he is elected.

Bush has no no mental acuity or agility.  Bush plainly is not in charge of his Administration; Bush is profoundly ignorant of the world and lacks even the basic skills or interest to change that.

Whether Obama is deceitful or not -- I happen to think not and that his spin is based in part in the fact that he doesn't have a lot of substantive achievements to work with -- the results will be quite different than Bush.

Now it would be a good question to ask whether and how Obama would address the unitary executive...

But that's another issue.

by bartimaeus blue 2008-02-21 04:52AM | 0 recs
Re: I think obama is very much a Bush

Obama sucks in the debate. he can't think on his feet and he copies what other people say and then adds some fluff to it. He does well when he reads from a teleprompter. Just because he went to Harvard does not make him brilliant. W went to Harvard too.

by maxstar 2008-02-21 07:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

So it would be a dilemma deciding between ending the Iraq war or having t continue until we're completely bankrupted?

Really?
 

by MGarvey 2008-02-20 01:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

It is not as black and white as that... so to speak.

by RJEvans 2008-02-20 01:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

My mom will vote for McCain and so will most of her coworkers if Obama is the nominee. They are all Democrats. I'm undecided, but I'm leaning McCain.

by RJEvans 2008-02-20 01:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

There is only one candidate that is ready to beat Republican.  And it's Hillary.

by JoeySky18 2008-02-20 01:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Yeah, my mom won't vote for Obama either. She voted for Kerry in 2004. My husband switched to Dem in 2004 to vote for Kerry but I don't know if he'll vote for Obama. The plagarism thing really turned him off. He thinks Obama is a joke since that was revealed.

My Dad wouldn't vote for either Hillary or Obama or even Edwards so I don't consider his opinion valid.

My sister voted for Kerry but won't vote for Obama but probably would vote for Hillary.

Obama is going to have to give me a reason to vote FOR him instead of voting against McCain. It was easy to convince people to vote against Bush but I don't think it'll be as easy against McCain. For all the yammering, he comes off as a moderate.

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-20 01:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party
Wow, you are no less than the third person here to say they are going to, or seriously considering voting for John McCain. The same John McCain who said that making tax cuts for the wealthy a permanent staple of economy during a huge financial debt is a good idea, and the same McCain who sees no problem being in Iraq for another 100 years.
You guys either arent real Democrats (yes, a "real" Democrat would vote for a Democrat)- in which case I'm wondering why you spend your time on this site- or more likely you're a bunch of sniveling whiners who are upset you got beat and cant take it in stride.
By the way, all this wonderful anecdotal evidence about my "(fill in family member) who usually votes for Democrats but wont vote for Obama" is not supported by scientific polls. They show that more Democrats would be satisfied if Obama was the nominee, and that he does far better in a general election match up against Clinton.
by AC4508 2008-02-20 02:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Wow, more condescending rhetoric from an Obama supporter.

Here in GA he loses 1/3 of democrats so he'll pretty much get blown out.

People like you make it harder to vote for Obama.

Those polls right now don't reflect jack. Kerry was leading by 10-15 pts this time 4 years ago.

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-20 02:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party
He'll lose a third of the Democrats in Georgia... a state he absolutely trounced Clinton in, but somehow he's LESS viable in that state? And how will he lost a third of the Democrats? For what reasons?
I am not condescending, its just nice to have the facts on my side. A larger percentage of Democratic voters have expressed that they would be satisfied with Obama as the nominee than Clinton.
By the way, if you are so weak-minded that you wouldnt vote for the person you thought was best for the country because you couldnt stand of the people who supported that candidate, then thats very disappointing.
by AC4508 2008-02-20 02:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

..more likely you're a bunch of sniveling whiners

...I am not condescending, its just nice to have the facts on my side

Really?

By the way, if you are so weak-minded...

And you wonder why some people say they can't stand Obama supporters.

by Denny Crane 2008-02-20 05:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Why dont you put the "facts on my side" and "weak-minded" statements in context Denny? Then let people judge them fairly.

by AC4508 2008-02-20 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Your comments are there for everyone to see.  People around here aren't idiots.  They're perfectly capable of reading exactly what you wrote and judging for themselves.

The context is that you call names and demean people, which is entirely uncalled for and unnecessary.

by Denny Crane 2008-02-21 05:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party
Well if people are perfectly capable of reading exactly why I write and judging for themselves, I'd thank you not to take a specific quote like "I have the facts on my side" and isolate it from its context to make your point that I am condescending.
I agree most people are not idiots; when a greater majority of Democrats say that they would be satisfied with Obama as the nominee than Clinton, then all this thread's apocalyptic bellyaching about how Democrats will stay home in November and lead to an Obama defeat is ridiculous.
Furthermore, people making these audacious claims are also saying that they too will consider voting for McCain. As avowed Clinton supporters, they cant stomach the idea of voting for Obama. Given that Obama and Clinton are practically the same on policy issues as compared to McCain, and that this is a PARTISAN blog, those statements have no merit here. If you truly believe in voting for a Republican President, this is not your sight. These people- DEFINITELY A MINORITY- are classless whiners, plain and simple. I stand by what I said and dont believe it was offensive.
by AC4508 2008-02-21 07:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Obama isnt a real Democrat. He doesnt even respect Bill Clinton and democrats from 90s (unless they endorse him). So you are proving your post didnt make sense.

The Reagan democrats who are supporting Hillary are most likely going to go for McCain.

by Sandeep 2008-02-20 02:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Most progressives were extremely critical of Bill Clinton when he was president, but now we have to praise him to the skies??  Why???

by mainelib 2008-02-21 06:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

What exactly then makes you Democrats?

by mady 2008-02-20 03:17PM | 0 recs
Poor child....you need to get out more often!

Look what you said about someone you support for one of the most powerful positions on the face of the eart....

"He has packaged himself well."
"Even if I think there is a lot of deception there in terms of his record..."
"Supporters tend to be a little overzealous..."

And McCain v Obama would post a tough dilemma.

So vote for McCain - at least he has experience.

by Shazone 2008-02-20 01:46PM | 0 recs
Obama as Harlem Globetrotter

Many of Obama's top surrogates have suggested that the Clinton's are racists. Jesse Jackson Jr. for example, said that Hillary never cried for Katrina. I will not forget that. The Clintons, like everyone, have faults, but they are not racists and they deserve respect for decades of service.

Obama has run a good race with a "little" help from the media. Its like the Harlem Globetrotters vs. the Washington Generals. The game is fixed. Once the general election begins they will destroy Obama.

He only served 1.5 years in the U.S. Senate before running for president and the nation is involved in two wars. Bad bet.

by mmorang 2008-02-20 02:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama as Harlem Globetrotter

do you have any idea how loaded that is?

by omar little 2008-02-20 02:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama as Harlem Globetrotter

I didn't mean it any other way then the way I used it in my comment. I saw the globetrotters and loved them.

I was hoping nobody took it the wrong way. I was in no way trying to be provocative.

by mmorang 2008-02-20 03:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama as Harlem Globetrotter

im just saying, the Harlem globetrotters are thought of as a modern day minstrel show by a lot of people.

by omar little 2008-02-20 03:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama as Harlem Globetrotter

I see the Globetrotters as what they are: talented, hardworking gentlemen trying to make a living and entertaining a lot of families in the process.

I should have used pro-wrestling instead. My point is that the officiating is biased and fixed.

by mmorang 2008-02-20 03:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Let me get this straight: you're saying that you would have a tough time deciding whether to vote for McCain or Obama?

On what issue is McCain closer to your position than Obama?

by Carl Nyberg 2008-02-21 06:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Well, I will make Obama's party my party- but right now it's gonna be a tough pill to swallow.  Not that I don't like him, but I cannot STAND a lot of his supporters.  They have been so condescending and self-righteous, it's hard for me to support Obama.  I really hope this distaste will fade after the primaries, I really do.  I am a diehard Democrat- and I loved Obama the first time I heard him speak.  I just don't personally think he's ready to be President.  That being said, I'd shoot myself before letting McCain get elected.  I just hope all this nastiness fades.  I can't even BEAR to go to DailyKos, Huffingtonpost, or even watch MSNBC anymore.  It's like all of my friends were taken away from me by the new kid at school.  I just want my friends back....

by easyE 2008-02-20 12:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Isn't that always the way after a tough, hotly-contested presidential primary?

I know people decry the "bad blood" that tough presidential primaries like this typically dredge up, but, ultimately, I think it helps crank up the party for the general election.

I remember in `04 when the cries from the establishment Dems was, "Dean will run third party and split the Dems and cost us the nomination."

Only it turned out that many of those same Dean supporters who swore up and down during primary season that they'd never vote for Kerry ended up being incredibly hard workers for the Kerry campaign.

As counterintuitive as it sounds, I think tough primary fights are good for the party.

by Bob Johnson 2008-02-20 01:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I hope you're right.  I have never cared about a primary before so I don't remember how they wash out.  I'm guessing this is normal, and that all the hurt feelings will fade.  I hope so (for my own sake).  

by easyE 2008-02-20 01:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

There are crazy partisans among both parties, I hate to say.  Take a look at the recommended diaries on this site from day to day and you'll find the same right-wing garbage against Obama recycled over and over  Not only that, you have Clinton partisans hoping that the "Rezko" deal will somehow blowup for Obama to cost him the nomination (and likely a promising political career, president or not), or that if it doesn't, they hope it'll somehow cause him to get slaughtered in the general election just to prove their point.

Honestly, if we all claim to be democrats here we should support the Democratic nominee.  I do know one thing, though: If Clinton manages to win the nomination by subverting the will of voters (through super-delegates), then I'll be making my way to re-register as independent the next day.  I'd still vote for Hillary in the GE because I can't stand to think of a McCain presidency (although this kind of move would virtually guarantee it), but I would not consider myself a democrat any longer, and I imagine others like me would not be nearly as forgiving.

by leshrac55 2008-02-20 02:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

That's where my problem lies with Obama supporters. They are never consistent. If rules are rules then super delegates can vote as they want. Why make it like voting against poeple's wish? Because your heart is not clean, you only see logic when it fits with your candidate.

by Sandeep 2008-02-20 03:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I think I replied to you elsewhere about this, but again... I agree with you.

Super Delegates should vote for what they feel is best.

Both camps are making arguments as to how they should "best" decide their vote.  HRC says that they should vote for who they think is the stronger candidate, and BO says that he doesn't think they should subvert the popular will.

I personally think he's right, and I think Super Delegates will ultimately feel the same way for fear of nuking their party.  They probably feel more strongly about winning in November than they do for one of the candidates.  If they really feel that Obama is such a bad candidate that it's worth risking internal civil war (and likely the White House in November), well, I guess I can't do anything about that... but it'll signal to me that the Democratic party no longer cares about the people's votes and I will re-register as an independent the following day.  I'll still vote for HRC, but I won't be involved with a party that essentially mocks democracy.

by leshrac55 2008-02-20 04:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

WHat?  You're saying yes and no at the same time.  First you said this:

I agree with you.

Super Delegates should vote for what they feel is best.

And then this:

BO says that he doesn't think they should subvert the popular will.

I personally think he's right

Those are two contrasting statements.  Am I missing something?

by Denny Crane 2008-02-20 05:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I agree with those statements and don't find them contrasting.

It's the difference between the rules the party has chosen and the policy you would like them to adopt.  I certainly believe and understand that the super delegates are allowed to vote as they want.  I urge them to vote however they best feel would reflect the will of the people, but I acknowledge that they're under no techincal obligation to do so.  If the party at large, and its voters, want to require them to vote in a certain way, they should do so, but they can't change the rules mid-race.  Believing that they SHOULD vote in a certain way, being the way I want them to, doesn't contradict that.

The Democratic leadership in MI and FL, on the other hand, broke established party rules fully knowing what the consequences should be.  Silly rules?  Arbitrary rules?  Sure.  Bur rules.  They cannot be seated.

Process matters.

by Koan 2008-02-20 06:17PM | 0 recs
After you've been through it time and time again..

...it wears pretty thin.  This one has made me change my registration from Dem to Independent.

The Obama Dem Party does not represent me.

by Shazone 2008-02-20 01:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

uuh....no...

i worked for harkin and happily went to fight for clinton.

this is like 80, when kennedy and his crowd destroyed the dem party and  directly elected reagan.

i know i was 18 and i was there with 'uncle teddy'.   I still havent forgiven myself for that...but that debacle caused the creation of the super delegates which will save us in the end this time ...so...

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 02:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

At least it isn't like 1968 yet. Agree that Teddy has been a bad influence in the national contests for almost 30 years. He also gave us Dukakis.

by DaleA 2008-02-20 02:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

YES INDEED HE DID.

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 03:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

That's a really funny way to look at things... because the way I see it, if the Super Delegates "save" us from an Obama nomination this time, they will have virtually guaranteed a McCain presidency with the backlash that it would cause.

by leshrac55 2008-02-20 02:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

It shouldn't create the backlash. The way Obama supporters are talking big words about coming together for Nov, they should keep those words in their mind. But they wont:-)

by Sandeep 2008-02-20 03:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I'll still (grudgingly) vote for HRC for fear of a McCain presidency, but you can guarantee that tons of people wouldn't. But, I would leave the Democratic party for the same reasons that people like Chris Bowers and Donna Brazile have already said, and I won't rehash here.  (My "grudging" vote, btw, would have nothing to do with her policy or even capability as a president, but simply the fact that she would have effectively stolen the nomination).

Not only that, even McCain would use this against Hillary.  "She cares nothing about voters, only winning", etc.  It'll make her look really BAD, and if that's what you want, by all means.

But I'm not worried about this situation.  Like you, I believe that the Super Delegates should do what they think is best... and I just don't see the vast majority of them thinking that nuking the party would be best (and we're already starting to see Super Delegates switch for this very reason).

And btw, I'm willing to admit that I'll still vote for HRC even if she effectively steals the nomination... many here are apparently unwilling to do the same for Obama even if he wins it fairly.  How about you?

by leshrac55 2008-02-20 04:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

well too f-ing bad.

its the DEMOCRATC Party, not the dems for a day party.

this has been OUR PARTY'S system for 25 years, deal with it!

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 03:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Yeah, you're right...

And the DEMOCRATIC Party in each state determines whether they think it's valuable or not to include an open primary or not.  If you think that sucks, oh well... guess you should try and change it for the next time.

And like I just said above, I agree with you.. I think Super Delegates should do what they think is best.  I am not worried about this because, in the end, I think the vast majority of them will think that nuking the party isn't for the best.  Sorry to disappoint!

by leshrac55 2008-02-20 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

"In fact, insensitivity to issues of gender and class are the things that, along with actual experience, more than anything else, distinguish his campaign from Hillary Clinton's.  

For all those who refuse to see fault in Obama, and say he shouldn't be held accountable for the sexism and classism of his supporters, here is the bottom line; these are the people Obama has intentionally courted, the people he has asked to bring him to the ball. That means that he, and his party, will have to dance to their tune."

It's a two-way street and I'm sure if Obama were in the position Clinton is in right now, we'd be hearing the same from his supporters.

by venavena 2008-02-20 12:50PM | 0 recs
Let's see...

News item from last night:

A CLINTON SURROGATE, A DEM DIVIDE?

But it was Obama supporters for whom Buffenbarger saved his most vitriolic contempt, and he proved that the Democratic Party's coalition is nothing if not fragile. Channeling Howard Beale from the movie "Network," he yelled into the microphone, "Give me a break! I've got news for all the latte-drinking, Prius- driving, Birkenstock-wearing, trust fund babies crowding in to hear him speak! This guy won't last a round against the Republican attack machine. He's a poet, not a fighter."

Now that you've written this:

But that it is a perfect, and unfortunately far from unique, example of the ugly classism...

I suspect you'll be publishing a follow-up diary decrying this ugliness from Camp Clinton.

Right?

by Bob Johnson 2008-02-20 12:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Let's see...

that was totally out of line.

I put that part of her rally on mute.

by lori 2008-02-20 12:52PM | 0 recs
Yeah it was out of line.

But to read Clinton-leaning blogs like Taylor Marsh, it was...

The

Best

Speech

Ever.

by Bob Johnson 2008-02-20 01:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah it was out of line.

Buffenbarger

is

the

MAN!

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 02:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Let's see...

Perhaps this gentleman has been reading too many internet posts by Obama supporters. I'm sorry to see a class war developing in the party -- but let's not forget, working class people don't have any voice in the political conversation. Not in the media or the blogosphere. So to hold this little candle of frustration up to the same standard as all the pontificators on cable, the networks, public television and radio, in the political journals and on the blogs is pretty foolish and unfair.

by esmense 2008-02-20 01:08PM | 0 recs
Obama won 'working class' voters in Wisconsin

... last night. Go figure.

But I like how you even attempt to blame Obama supporters for this clown's asshattery:

Perhaps this gentleman has been reading too many internet posts by Obama supporters.

That inane passing of the baton of responsibility for one's actions made me laugh.

by Bob Johnson 2008-02-20 01:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama won 'working class' voters in Wisconsin

Honey, you lost "the baton of responsibility" deep in the weeds the minute you suggested that one heckler is the equal of a campaign's intentional tactics and the bad behavior of the powerful political media.

by esmense 2008-02-20 01:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama won 'working class' voters in Wisconsin

i think he reads mydd...

I called  obama a two faced Janus here a week ago here and even had pictures to prove it!

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 02:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Read George Lakoff ... Democrats lose elections over and over because we run on a laundry list of proposals and not on values.  Obama is the first national candidate of the Lakoff era, he gets it.  That's why he appeals to people who don't agree with him on the issues (and I get the sense that he'd be the most liberal Democrat to win the nomination ever.)

Now, I'm sorry if a lot of yahoos are supporting him.  Clinton supporters have called us (and therefore me) either latte drinking trust fund babies or celebrity obsesssed airheads.  We all can take personal offense from this campaign if we look for it.

Calm down, listen to what he's actually saying and not what the most hyped up supporters pretend he's saying ... he's a mainstream Democrat who will get liberal policies passed by bringing along the centrists and moderates to our positions, not caving in to their demands.

by Dan Conley 2008-02-20 12:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

It's up to him to convince us not his supporters.

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-20 01:09PM | 0 recs
He's on his way over to your house.

Look for a series of black SUVs.

by Bob Johnson 2008-02-20 01:14PM | 0 recs
Re: He's on his way over to your house.

What are you saying, Bob?  The candidates shouldn't have to work for our votes?

by Denny Crane 2008-02-20 05:58PM | 0 recs
Think about what you said....

"That's why he appeals to people who don't agree with him on the issues."  Why would you vote for someone who doesn't agree with you on issues?

And if the worst that you've been called is a latte-drinking, trust fund baby who is celebrity obsessed airhead...how would you like to be called (as I have on many occasions) a stupid, f*cking, lazy idiot...simply because two months ago I was asking really reasonable and legitimate questions.

The result:  I looked closely at Clinton, Edwards and Obama.  I went to Edward and then to Clinton.  I doubt I can ever go to Obama.

by Shazone 2008-02-20 01:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Think about what you said....

OR A RACIST?

AS BOB KERRY, CUOMO AND THE CLINTONS WERE.

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 02:36PM | 0 recs
How to say it?

Without being labeled a racist?

The Obama campaign has singlehandedly set back race relations 50 years.  They took the Clintons - who had a strong and positive record of AA support - and trashed it for their own benefit.

The have raised the ugly specter through direct - and indirect - reference of black versus white.  And I am pissed at that.

Shame on them for creating an additional divide in this country.  W has done enough of that already.

Shame.

by Shazone 2008-02-20 02:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I've read Lakoff. He's an academic. The problem with Democrats is they think communicating with voters is an academic problem, rather than an exercise in empathy, respect and understanding. Democrats lose elections over and over because they don't have much respect for most Americans, and it shows. That lack of respect means they don't know how to tell stories, that reveal their values, that many ordinary Americans can relate to in powerful way. They don't, for instance, just to give one example, understand what "merit" means to most non-elite Americans (in has to do with over-coming obstacles, not gaining credentials). They don't tell stories that make people feel good about who they are and what America is, instead, they preach or pontificate about what they think it needs to be. They don't credit the American sense of fair play, instead they congratulate themselves for being more enlightened than most Americans -- and tell others they must be more enlightened too.

Obama is the perfect speaker for elite liberals -- he confirms that they really are as wonderful as they think they are. He promises that he, and they, can be the country's saviors.

In other words, he's just a more eloquent (or, at least Axelrod is) speaker than all the earnest Democratic presidential candidates who have failed before him.  

by esmense 2008-02-20 02:03PM | 0 recs
Exactly

Here's a wonderful example of an Obama supporter's approach:

"We are the experts. We know more about politics and the political process than most Americans do. We are more informed and we help to shape the direction of the party and the platforms than do low-information voters."

That little tidbit was over at DailyObama.  The sig line for that "progressive" individual was "Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls."  

The staggering display of irony aside, the towering selfishness and arrogant self-absorbed elitism is one prime reason I cannot stand Obama.  This is not the mindset we need in this country.  I'm sick of the adulation of another minimally qualified feel-good candidate.  The last minimally qualified feel-good candidate was George W Bush.

by newhorizon 2008-02-20 02:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I have looked at what he is saying, and nope, I don't like it.

There are his often those dogwhistle sexist remarks.

I have looked at his policies/platform and if you think he'll be the most liberal Dem you're deluding yourself.  

He's already moved to the right on healthcare (not universal, subsidy $ not as much as clinton etc.).  That means when he gets in office, they'll have to concede even more, in the spirit of bipartisanship doncha know?

He wants to fund NCLB (clinton wants to dismantle it).  NCLB is the biggest disservice to the educational system in this country.

He may be for school vouchers (it's yes but maybe no with Obama--you're never quite sure), which is pretty freakin' terrible.

Obama doesn't bring up bush's war on science and how to rectify it.

Obama was for coal to liquid, but (hopefully) now he's not.  He let nuclear agencies water down what could have been a good regulatory bill.  He's all for building more nuclear power.

When he was a Sen. in chicago, he "worked" with industry lobbyists on healthcare to water down that bill as well.  

As a partisan democrat, I'd have to vote for him but it'll be a vote against McCain, not for Obama.  I really, REALLY hope that you're right.  Seriously, I'd love to be wrong, and that he'll become a great leader and a tribute to our party and my (some day) kids can ask me WTF? i was thinking when I didn't support him in the primary, but I don't think so.

He's all about unity, coming together, the middle ground and that's exactly what you'll get.  watered down, not very good progressive legislation that spits in the wind and in four years the repubs can point to all of it as a failure of the dem party platform and once again take the reins.  

that's assuming McCain doesn't either barely win and/or crush Obama.

joy.

by notableabsence 2008-02-20 03:12PM | 0 recs
They've got us by the short hairs

It's hold your nose and think of the Supreme Court. Sounds a lot like Queen Victoria's "Shut your eyes and think of England."

I'll probably vote for BO in November, but I know I'm being scr***d, and  I know it's saying good bye to the healthcare dream. I hope the SC is worth it. For all I know  BO will appoint another John Roberts. He seems to like Roberts fine.

I say probably, because I don't know how much more misogyny I can tolerate from BO. Any more and I might have to stay home rather than lose my soul.

Is the Green Party for Labour?

by votermom 2008-02-21 04:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

If you think Clinton hasn't worked with lobbyists to get legislation passed, you haven't been paying attention.

by mainelib 2008-02-21 06:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

So, to recap, you can't stand Obama for the mean things that some of his supporters say about Clinton; you misinterpreted his remark about Clinton (who says she can take anything the Republicans dish out, but apparently not anything from Obama); and you think in some odd way that the Republicans will be better for women than Obama?

Is that right?  If so, are you wired to the same planet as the rest of us?

by rayspace 2008-02-20 12:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Clinton's a big girl, she can take care of herself. Obama's obvious willingness to make sexist appeals is objectionable for what it reveals about his character, and his cynicism.

by esmense 2008-02-20 01:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

And there's no space in the universe where you consider that Obama was poking fun at her without being sexist?

by rayspace 2008-02-20 01:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

He was poking fun of her as a woman, not as a candidate. There is no other word to describe that other than "sexist."

by esmense 2008-02-20 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

So when Hillary referred to him as "irresponsible," that was playing into a common stereotype of black men, so Hillary was being racist, right?

by rayspace 2008-02-20 02:30PM | 0 recs
Re: You Can't Misinterpret the Fact that he Chose

You can't just throw out accusations without backing it up.  How did he disrespect the Democratic Party?  And isn't disrespecting the Democratic Party establishment one of the reasons there are blogs like this?

The Democratic Party is still a big enough tent (and getting bigger, thanks to Obama's candidacy) to allow for differing views on our officeholders.  Perhaps you are too young to remember how Democrats piled on with Republicans in ridiculing Jimmy Carter after his term was over.  

Obama is far from messianic.  His rhetoric is all about "we."  I much prefer it to the smug condescencion of "Hillary Knows Best."

by rayspace 2008-02-20 02:20PM | 0 recs
OK, don't vote for him, unless....
you live in a swing state.

If you live in California or any state that is solidly blue (or red) and you don't like Obama, by all means stay home.

But if you live in a tightly contested state, please think before you act. Not only are you aiding and abetting the creation of President McCain (shudder), but think about the Clinton legacy. If you want Clinton's name to do down alongside Nader's go ahead and hand this election to the Republicans.

Hillary Clinton will be a pariah if the story is that her hard core supporters cost us the election.

Is that what you want?

by PhilFR 2008-02-20 12:57PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, don't vote for him, unless....

Pariah? If we lost the election she will once again become the front-runner for 2012.  Just remember that as everyone trashes her.

by easyE 2008-02-20 01:01PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, don't vote for him, unless....
Maybe she'll run a less tone-deaf campaign next time around.
by PhilFR 2008-02-20 01:07PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, don't vote for him, unless....

I do agree with that.  I think she is 75% responsible for her loss (if she loses)- 25% is due to Obama's charm.  Let's remember, though, if Obama hadn't won so many of the caucuses- Clinton would still be the leader.  This "primary only" strategy was fatally flawed.  Maybe this loss will be good for her and she will be very strong the next time around....

by easyE 2008-02-20 01:26PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, don't vote for him, unless....

4 years of McCain would be bad enough... he'd probably still get to appoint 1-2 replacement justices from the "liberal" bloc of the court, probably unbalancing the court for a minimum of 20-30 years.

by leshrac55 2008-02-20 02:59PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, don't vote for him, unless....

Great point, I mean that's why Dean was the Frontrunner this year right? And why Ted Kennedy was the Frontrunner in 1988?

by Socraticsilence 2008-02-20 03:05PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, don't vote for him, unless....

I might write in another candidate or vote 3rd party at the top of the ticket. Getting a Democratic Senate, and electing real progressives down ticket, is much more important than having an inexperienced right of center Democrat at the top of the ticket.

by esmense 2008-02-20 01:34PM | 0 recs
A President McCain appointing Justice Stevens

replacement could do more damage than I can imagine.

Success down ticket is important, but not on a relative scale.

That said, I don't have the problems with Obama that you do (obviously, since I voted for him in the primary).  I have a hard time reading the extreme stuff from both sides.

As I keep saying, there are sane and civil people out here.  But it takes us longer to type.

by mijita 2008-02-20 01:47PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, don't vote for him, unless....

I believe Obama's voting record is slightly more liberal than Clinton's voting record.

by shalca 2008-02-20 02:01PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, don't vote for him, unless....

oh right ...obama dividing the party will be clintons fault too....

and if she is the nominee and obamacrats stay home, that will be her fault also.

amazing

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 02:43PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, don't vote for him, unless....

I live in Washington, a swing state. I won't vote for him.

by Sensible 2008-02-20 03:08PM | 0 recs
Why do they continually

taunt yellow dogs to sit on their hands and not help them.  They are doomed to make Dukakis look like a super action hero.

by Beltway Dem 2008-02-20 01:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Aptopix Bush State of Union

by campskunk 2008-02-20 01:31PM | 0 recs
That picture says it all! n/t

by Julia02110 2008-02-20 04:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Given your tagline, it's obvious that nothing Obama did or could have done would win your vote.

I want a President who will govern, not rule.  That's why I don't support Clinton.

by rayspace 2008-02-20 01:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Yeah, I'm done with the Party for the reasons you lay out.  I no longer have a Party.  I could have tolerated his vile supporters, but it's Obama and the Party elite that I take issue with.  He expresses a dismissive attitude toward women that leaves me cold.  The Party not once stepped in to confront any of the sexism either spouted by Obama or hurled by the media at the first female Democratic candidate with a shot at the presidency.  There's just nothing in it for me.  

by masslib1 2008-02-20 01:41PM | 0 recs
spouting

What sexism did he spout? Care to confront it right now?

by Jumbo 2008-02-20 01:50PM | 0 recs
Re: spouting

Oh all kinds.  The "tea" parties.  The "periodically moody".  The "Hillary attacks" site for even the slightest criticism.  The "divisive" meme.  The "snub".  The "likeable enough".  It goes on and on.  Look, I liked Obama at the beginning of this campaign.  But, I know sexism when I see it. And, I don't give a crap if you don't see it.  I do.  I don't say that lightly.  

by masslib1 2008-02-20 01:56PM | 0 recs
How is that sexism?

What's the tea party quote? You put periodically moody in quotes, but can you actually find a link to where he used those words? How is calling someone "divisive" have anything to do with gender? I think you're reinforcing the sexist stereotype that feminists do nothing but scouring subtexts for invisible insults instead of actually worrying about the important issues that effect women's equality.

http://slate.com/blogs/blogs/xxfactor/ar chive/2008/02/18/obama-s-sexist-dog-whis tle.aspx

by Jumbo 2008-02-20 02:02PM | 0 recs
Re: How is that sexism?

Everyone knows about the tea parties and the periodically moody unless you have been living under a rock.  As for the divisive bullshit, Hillary has a record of being anything but divisive.  It's dogwhistle for bitch. Don't blame me for Obama's disusting behavior.  

by masslib1 2008-02-20 02:08PM | 0 recs
Re: How is that sexism?

I'm not blaming you, I'm trying to have a conversation with you. Here's how it works with most people: they make an assertion, I challenge it, they respond to my challenge. We have what's known as a "back-and-forth". It's great fun if you're into it. Wanna give it a go?

I think divisive means "has high negatives" which is factually based in her poll  numbers and has nothing to do with her chromosomes. And I'm pretty sure he said "periodically, when she's down" meaning down in the polls not pre-menstrual. I don't remember the word "moody" being used, but if you've got a link, I'd love to see it. I still don't know what the tea party thing is so if you'd care to inform me, that'd be rad. I live in the San Fernando valley which is near some rocks, but not technically under them.

by Jumbo 2008-02-20 02:15PM | 0 recs
Re: How is that sexism?

Well, frankly, that's naive. In fact, every time I heard this comment, "has high negatives" it was like hearing nails on a chalkboard.  "periodically, when she's down"  Have you ever, ever heard a male politician referenced in such a way?  Look, we can't have a back and forth on this.  I think he has displayed an egregious dismissive attitude towards Hillary Clinton, laced with sexism.  You do not.  We won't find common ground here.

by masslib1 2008-02-20 02:23PM | 0 recs
Dismissed

I guess I've been dismissed. Lame. You should maybe get a blog where people can't reply to comments. It'll save you the trouble of actually having to talk to people who disagree with you.

by Jumbo 2008-02-20 02:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Dismissed

oh stfu

she responded to you over and over.

more than you deserved.

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 02:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Dismissed

Hey now. Don't be uncivil. Only Obama supporters are uncivil, remember.

Oops, sorry. Never mind. My bad. STFUing from now on....

by Jumbo 2008-02-20 03:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Dismissed

I HAVE UTTER CONTEMPT FOR ANYONE WHO -TO BOOST THEIR FAVE - SAYS THE CLINTONS ARE RACISTS.  

F THOSE PEOPLE.

THATS ME BEIN' GENTLE..

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 03:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Dismissed

Oh yeah! Well I hate caps lock! Grrr!

by Jumbo 2008-02-20 03:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Dismissed

He was respectful and factual, she was vehement, abusive, and irrational.

There is a certain demographic that sees attacks on their group everywhere (whether it's attacks on women, on men, on gays, on Christians, on their ethnicity, whatever). It allows them to go about their lives in a constant state of energizing self-righteousness and freedom from responsibility. Only a tiny fraction of women are afflicted with this personality defect, fortunately.

by EMTP democrat 2008-02-20 03:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Dismissed

Look, I reall dislike the way Obama has operated and I find it offensive, as well as the failure of the Party elite.  But, I'm not going to support McCain or anything.

by masslib1 2008-02-20 03:44PM | 0 recs
Re: How is that sexism?

no worries...

this was all expected since obamacaats played the race card after nh.

but good tides are coming.

closed primaaries to come..

remember hill still leads with dems!
---
hill will win

close in tex and ohio

big in pa

and indiana,

then ky then pr..

and then with the late big mo...

she will get more and more super delegates...

and the nomination.

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 02:58PM | 0 recs
Re: How is that sexism?

Every time the say he's not ready do you hear the word "uppity" because that's just as valid a criticism.

by Socraticsilence 2008-02-20 03:12PM | 0 recs
Re: How is that sexism?

Nope.  I see a guy two years out of his part-time job as a state leg.

by masslib1 2008-02-20 03:18PM | 0 recs
Re: spouting

If you honestly feel that Obama was sexist with any of these remarks, then I have to ask if you feel that Clinton margianlized African Americans with her remarks about Louisana, and her husband's remarks about Jesse Jackson in relation to South Carolina, and her campaign manager's remarks regarding latinos voting for black candidates.

If you honestly believe that Obama is a misogynist, then you should probably believe that Clinton is a racist.

by shalca 2008-02-20 02:11PM | 0 recs
Re: spouting

ready...

ge close to your screen,
i wanna whisper to you...

f.u.

the clintons arent racists you fool.

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 02:51PM | 0 recs
Re: spouting

I don't know what Clinton said about LA -- but if the people calling it "racist" are the same people who suggested her comment about LBJ was "racist" then I'm not inclined to believe it was. Was Bill Clinton's remark about Jesse Jackson racist? No, it was historical fact and maybe wishful thinking on the part of a competing campaign. What I thought was really objectionable was the dismissive and denigrating way the media, in their efforts to dis Clinton, referred to Jackson and his historic candidacy. As for some of the other comments the Obama campaign spun as racist -- the Cuomo quote was not only not racist it was not even made in reference to Obama or his campaign. Bill Clinton's "fairy tale" quote was basic campaign questioning of an opponent's campaign claims, nothing more. And the genuinely stupid remark made Bob Kerry -- a man who brought about a hasty end to his own presidential bid by making a tasteless lesbian joke in front of a live mike -- didn't have anything to do with the Clinton campaign. The man is just an idiot (who is clueless enough to think he was being genuinely complimentary to Obama).

Now, look back at what Bill Clinton did during his administration; appointing more minorities to powerful, high profile posts than any administration in history and setting a precedent that even Republican administrations now feel obligated to follow. Look at both Clinton's long history of commitment to Civil Rights. Do YOU really believe these people are racist?

by esmense 2008-02-20 02:54PM | 0 recs
Re: spouting

You're not getting the point of my post at all.  I DO NOT believe that the Clintons are racist.  But I think that the proof that Obama is a woman hating sexist is just as sparse as the proof that the Clintons are racist.  I think if you truly believe one, then you should probably believe the other.

by shalca 2008-02-20 03:03PM | 0 recs
Re: spouting

If I believe Obama is sexist I have to believe the Clinton's are racist? Nonsense.

It was the Obama campaign that spun quotes, like the LBJ and "fairy tale" quote to the Clinton hating media as "racists." That's race-baiting. And it is dispicable.

It is Obama surrogates who have spun things like Clintons "tears" in a sexist way, and flatly stated that her supporters vote for her on the basis of tears and emotion. That's sexist.

It is Obama himself who has used sexist code words -- "calculating" "claws come out" "tea parties" -- again and again against his opponent.

Now, he either does it because he is a sexist and isn't bothering to hide his disrespect for his opponent's gender, or, he does it because he thinks using gender references is an effective way to diminish her in the eyes of many of his voters who do have sexist attitudes. Whichever it is, it is reprehensible.

by esmense 2008-02-20 03:18PM | 0 recs
Re: spouting

I give up, you're part of the fringe.  I hear people state crap like Bill Clinton referring to Obama as a "kid" is a dogwhistle racist comment. I hear the Jesse Jackson comment used as proof that Bill is a racist.

Now words like "calculating," "claws," "periodically" and "down" are sexist code words.  In both cases, you have no f**king clue the state of mind of the speaker, and in both cases their past actions speak against the assumptions made.  Open your eyes.

by shalca 2008-02-20 03:41PM | 0 recs
Answers.

Q. "Do YOU really believe these people are racist?"

A. No.

Q. Do you really believe Barack Obama is sexist?

by Jumbo 2008-02-20 03:04PM | 0 recs
Re: spouting

Let me add; I think what Clinton said about South Carolina was dumb, I think it indicated that he didn't believe Obama would be as strong a candidate, nationally, as he turned out to be. But I don't think he under estimated Obama because he was black -- I think he underestimated him because he has been on the national political scene for such a short while.  

by esmense 2008-02-20 03:04PM | 0 recs
Re: spouting

They won't see it.  They are blind.  But millions of women do see it.  They are the ones who piled into the voting booths in New Hampshire after the fawning media pronounced Hillary dead after one primary in a nothing state with tiny little elite caucuses.

We may not be enough to elect Hillary, but we sure can stop Obama.

by PlainWords 2008-02-20 03:02PM | 0 recs
Hmm.

My mom and my sister (Barnard graduate!) didn't see it. They're hardcore Obama supporters. Are they blind or do they just hate women? What about 49% of the women of Wisconsin?

by Jumbo 2008-02-20 03:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Hmm.

My mom and my two sisters also voted for Obama. I guess they're dumb, too.

by BlueinColorado 2008-02-20 04:33PM | 0 recs
Not dumb

They're just secretly Republicans who hate women.

by Jumbo 2008-02-20 05:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

VROOM VROOM! Democratic party, under the bus!

by X Stryker 2008-02-20 07:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Why exactly would Democratic women stay at home if Obama's the nominee? How did he steal the vote?

What has Obama done thats so bad that its worth helping McCain win? What has Obama done thats so bad that its more important than pro-choice Supreme Court Justices? More important than healthcare reform? More important than a Democrat in the WH?

by liberalj 2008-02-20 01:47PM | 0 recs
If you / they feel that way

they may be left with a devil of a choice.  Because McCain is truely committed to seeing abortion made illegal.  

The next President could replace 2-3 justices.  The idea of it being McCain is enough to freeze my blood.

by mijita 2008-02-20 01:49PM | 0 recs
Re: If you / they feel that way

You see, that's the problem. Would Obama even put pro choice judges on the bench or would he be too worried about offending evangelicals? Until he actually says who he'll put on the bench, i'll reserve judgement on voting for that reason alone.

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-20 02:20PM | 0 recs
Re: If you / they feel that way

GIVE ME A BREAK!  You're going to not vote for him because he hasn't explicitly said that he will put prochoice judges on the bench (which, really, is pretty obvious), thereby enabling McCain who has already sworn that he will put ANTICHOICE judges on the bench.  

What kind of logic is this????

by bluedavid 2008-02-20 02:28PM | 0 recs
Re: If you / they feel that way

You see, you're proving my point. He hasn't said it. He's too worried about offending evangelicals I guess. You are saying that I should just hope Obama does those things.

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-20 02:59PM | 0 recs
Re: If you / they feel that way

He has said it.  Publically in the debates and in speeches.  He's also written it.  

Here's his Presidential position statement to NARAL affirming his postion on choice:

   "A woman's ability to decide how many children to have and when, without interference from the government, is one of the most fundamental rights we possess.  It is not just an issue of choice, but equality and opportunity for all women.

   "I have consistently advocated for reproductive choice and will make preserving women's rights under Roe v. Wade a priority as President.  I oppose any constitutional amendment to overturn the Supreme Court's ruling in this case.

   "I believe we must work together to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies.  I support legislation to expand access to contraception, health information, and preventative services to help reduce unintended pregnancies.  That is why I co-sponsored the Prevention First Act of 2007, which will increase funding for family planning and comprehensive sex education that teaches both abstinence and safe sex methods.  It will also end insurance discrimination against contraception, improve awareness about emergency contraception, and provide compassionate assistance to rape victims.

   "Finally, I support the enactment and enforcement of laws that help prevent violence, intimidation, and harassment directed at reproductive health providers and their patients."

by mijita 2008-02-20 08:46PM | 0 recs
Re: If you / they feel that way

Except he HAS explicitly said that he would put judges on the bench that would protect choice. He said it in the debate - where all the Democrats said that - with the exception being Kucinich...who was vague in his answer.

by Elise 2008-02-21 09:43AM | 0 recs
Re: If you / they feel that way

He's defended a woman's right to choose throughout his public life.  He's stated his belief in Roe v. Wade repeatedly in public and in print.

By contrast, John McCain has actually said the opposite -- that he's committed to seeing Roe reversed.  

Has anyone running actually said who they'll put on the bench before being elected?  It would be insane and presuptious for a candidate who hasn't even gotten their party's nomination to start talking about who they would appoint to SC vacancies that haven't even happened yet.

by mijita 2008-02-20 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: If you / they feel that way

Obama says prochoice but here's a tidbit of info from a blog on reproductive health.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/ 02/06/obama-loves-you-back#comment-2728

"In response to the question: "Does Senator Obama support any restrictions on abortion, or does he believe it should be entirely up to the woman?" his answer was:
"Obama supports those restrictions that are consistent with the legal framework outlined by the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade."
Sen. Obama was a Constitutional Law professor. Surely he knows that the Supreme Court has held that a host of restrictions are compatible with Roe v. Wade.
This answer is a far cry from affirming a belief in the Constitutionally grounded right to privacy and personal autonomy. To say the least."

by notableabsence 2008-02-20 03:25PM | 0 recs
Re: If you / they feel that way

   *  Expand access to contraception; reduce unintended pregnancy. (Feb 2008)
    * Rated 100% by NARAL on pro-choice votes in 2005, 2006 & 2007. (Jan 2008)
    * Voted against banning partial birth abortion. (Oct 2007)
    * Stem cells hold promise to cure 70 major diseases. (Aug 2007)
    * Trust women to make own decisions on partial-birth abortion. (Apr 2007)
    * Extend presumption of good faith to abortion protesters. (Oct 2006)
    * Constitution is a living document; no strict constructionism. (Oct 2006)
    * Pass the Stem Cell Research Bill. (Jun 2004)
    * Protect a woman's right to choose. (May 2004)
    * Supports Roe v. Wade. (Jul 1998)
    * Voted YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007)
    * Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
    * Voted YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)
    * Rated 0% by the NRLC, indicating a pro-choice stance. (Dec 2006)

http://www.ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama. htm

by goodnbad 2008-02-20 04:10PM | 0 recs
Re: If you / they feel that way

Well, the Democrats COULD refuse to confirm them. They could filibuster, etc.

But, oh my goodness, that would be playing partisan hardball. It would be "divisive." And good little Democrats just don't do that kind of thing anymore.

You know, what Obama supporters really want is to live in some dream world where no one ever has to fight for progressive values. Where "change" just falls from the sky like magic gumdrops with nary a whisper of criticism from anyone.

Well, it is not possible. Every progressive advance in this country's history -- from labor rights to civil rights to voting rights for women -- has been accompanied not simply by harsh words and powerful resistance, but often by terrible violence and violently repression.

If Obama's not willing to fight, then he's also not likely to accomplish anything.

by esmense 2008-02-20 02:36PM | 0 recs
Re: If you / they feel that way

A Senate that won't even stand fast on granting immunity to telecoms (Clinton wasn't much help there) isn't one I'd trust to block nomination after nomination.

We need a Democratic President making those nominations.  I do support Obama, but I'd vote for ANY Democrat in order to beat McCain.  We can't afford another 4, let alone 8, years of Republican court appointees or we'll find ourselves back in 1970 in terms of privacy and reproductive freedom.

by mijita 2008-02-20 02:47PM | 0 recs
Re: If you / they feel that way

Given Obama's catering to the center-right and "postpartisan" position, I cannot imagine him ever nominating any prospective justice that would be unpalatable to the GOP in general.  The idea that he would appoint anyone even remotely appearing to be some liberal crusader is ludicrous.  

If McCain wins a GE, it is equally foolish to assume that he would have a lapdog Senate rubberstamp any appointee he selects.  Further, I would expect Obama to exercise his powers of leadership on his Senate brethren to avoid any right-wing extremist from getting on the bench.  

by newhorizon 2008-02-20 02:48PM | 0 recs
Re: If you / they feel that way

The extremists are already there.

All it will take is a right of center moderate to tip the balance.  Especially since they'll be replacing a liberal justice.

This matters. And there's only going to be so many times that nominees can be turned down -- especially if they've been clever enough (Thomas) not to put their anti-choice positions into writing.  That's already been shown.  

by mijita 2008-02-20 08:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

so your premise against supporting Obama is because of a few unnecessarily vocal supporters?

you do realize that the Clinton camp has some pretty rude backers as well, and that it's just an unfortunate part of elections and campaigns, right?

really, it's an unfortunate side effect of the internet, so i guess we should blame Al Gore then, huh?

i won't excuse those rude supporters of Obama's.  in fact, i'd probably shout them down.  but i'd also say that we should be looking at the campaigns and the candidates themselves instead of a few loudmouths from The Internet.

gosh.

by fightinfilipino 2008-02-20 01:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Bravo! Thanks for expressing so well what I feel. This campaign season is ending badly, with the party split into factions. And I can't see where the winners can heal, even if they wanted to do so.

by DaleA 2008-02-20 01:54PM | 0 recs
Not my party anymore

"As for all the Democratic politicians and so-called "progressive" bloggers and supporters who defended him when he used race and gender as a campaign tactic, who have refused to stand up to what has happened in the media, who, for instance, went to bat for a media personality who suggested that Clinton had "pimped out" her daughter rather than for the Democrat who was maligned in this despicable way..."

Soon as I can, I'm changing my registration card to Independent.

by Rome890 2008-02-20 01:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Not my party anymore

Me too.  It's kind of freeing actually.

by masslib1 2008-02-20 01:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Not my party anymore

I might do what my boss does:  stay registered as a Democrat so I can vote for the weaker candidate in the primary.  He voted for Obama in our primary, but he's a McCain supporter.  He's just loving this.

by PlainWords 2008-02-20 02:06PM | 0 recs
The Big Sin

Calling the Clintons racists is the big sin in my opinion. Obama could have done well without resorting to playing the race card. Puting down Clinton's presidency and the Dem's in general while complimenting Reagan and the Republicans won him some short term Independent and Republican votes but it hurt the party he wants to lead.

Obama will be destroyed by the Republicans and old man McCain. We know Obama can play offense with the best of them, but can he play defense? He hasn't been tested because he had the media on his side. That will change and his supporters, hopefully, will learn a thing or two (like backing an untested one term Senator when the nation is involved in two wars is not too swift).

How many offended Democratic and Independent white women will be voting for McCain? We shall see.

by mmorang 2008-02-20 01:57PM | 0 recs
Re: The Big Sin

I'd never vote for McCain.  

by masslib1 2008-02-20 02:00PM | 0 recs
Re: The Big Sin

Rumor is that McCain is going to pick Christine Todd Whitman as his running mate. Lots of soccer moms etc will flock to that ticket.

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-20 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: The Big Sin

Christine Todd Whitman?  Seriously?  That would be poke in the eye to the Republican base.  She's reviled by the conservative wing party for not completely towing W's line while at the EPA.

We can only hope that McCain is this dumb since it would be mean as easy Democratic victory as hard core conservatives sat this election out in disgust.

by Monkey In Chief 2008-02-20 02:33PM | 0 recs
Re: The Big Sin

Christine Todd Whitman would be a great choice. The Repub's have no where to go and they would love to put the first woman in the Whitehouse.

McCain will be tough to beat if he does that. Especially since Obama camp has called the Clintons racists and angered a lot of people, especially women.

by mmorang 2008-02-20 02:52PM | 0 recs
Re: The Big Sin

I highly doubt that McCain would choose Whitman for VP. I'm actually of the belief that he doesnt need to spend much time kissing up to conservatives because they'll have no choice but to come home in November anyways, but this might actually be one way to keep them home: a pro-choice running mate.

by AC4508 2008-02-20 03:02PM | 0 recs
Re: The Big Sin

It doesn't have to be Whitman. He could chose a pre-life female Senator. He said he will only serve one term, so we would have the first woman president in 4 years, only she'll be a Republican because the Dem's are too stupid to nominate someone with experince.

McCain could pull the same trick with an AA, like Powel. The Repub's will make lemonaide out of lemons.

by mmorang 2008-02-20 03:09PM | 0 recs
Re: The Big Sin

People have also mentioned the current Governor of Alaska. I think her name is Palin?

If McCain puts a woman on the ticket and comes up with a half way decent health care plan (and it doesn't have to have mandates! Obama has already made that clear), he'll get a lot of women. All any Republican has to do to win is keep women from voting too heavily for the Democrat, and get a higher than average vote from Hispanics.

Obama, on the other hand, is going to be faced with the task of trying to keep the women he has dissed from staying home, try to win Hispanic votes from a man who is from, and is popular in, the region where the largest number of hispanic voters live, and try to gain the votes of those Independent and moderate Republican men who Democrats are always hankering after but rarely win. Not an easy task.
 

by esmense 2008-02-20 03:27PM | 0 recs
Re: The Big Sin

"McCain will be tough to beat if he does that. Especially since Obama camp has called the Clintons racists and angered a lot of people, especially women."

Yes, this must be true because Obama's support with women has only increased since Super Tuesday, not decreased.

But there are all those women just angry as hell that Obama supposedly called the Clinton's racist?

by leshrac55 2008-02-20 03:09PM | 0 recs
Re: The Big Sin

I got that from a recent poll. The poll included all of Clinton's supporters and 5% of them said they would not vote for Obama if he's the nominee. The percentage of Obama's supporters who would not vote for Clinton were smaller.

If McCain, as has been mentioned, puts a AA or a woman on the ticket he will get many Dem and Independent votes. And yes, he has pissed a lot of women off.

I think Obama will lose big because he will get destroyed in the press. I could be wrong. We will see.

by mmorang 2008-02-20 03:15PM | 0 recs
Exact opposite shown in exit polls...

There will be a certain percentage of each crowd who will say they won't vote for the other if their nominee doesn't win.  So, the question is, which one gets more of the other candidates votes should they lose?

According to the WI exit polls, Obama clearly comes out ahead in the question of whether the voter would be "satisfied" if they are the nominee.  If Clinton were the nominee, 31% of WI voters would not be satisfied.  If Obama were the nominee, 17% would not be satisfied.

by leshrac55 2008-02-20 04:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Exact opposite shown in exit polls...

Polls regarding Obama don't mean a thing right now because he has not been beat up yet. He will and his numbers will fall dramatically.

Think I'm wrong, lets chat in 2 or 3 months or whenever the race is officially over. Playing the race card will backfire on Obama.

by mmorang 2008-02-20 04:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Exact opposite shown in exit polls...

Ok, then don't cite your own polls as evidence if it's all crap.  I guess we just don't know how it'll shake out yet, but you seem pretty sure so I'll hit you up in a few months to see how it's going.

by leshrac55 2008-02-20 04:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Exact opposite shown in exit polls...

I'm not sure of anything except that all the happy talk about Obama will change 180 degrees. I have seen it over and over again. The media is largely controlled by the right and they will be gunning for Obama.

I might be defending Obama when it happens, but right now I don't like the fact that his camp labeled the Clintons racists. I have a problem with that.

by mmorang 2008-02-20 04:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Exact opposite shown in exit polls...

Can you point me to exactly where Obama said the Clinton's are "racist"?

I personally don't think the Clinton's are racist, but I do think that Bill Clinton potentially used some racially charged rhetoric, trying to make Obama the "black" and therefore "unelectable" candidate.

In any case, I'm not attacking here, I'm merely asking if you could point me to something showing Obama saying that the Clinton's are racist.  I'd like to see what you're referring to exactly.

by leshrac55 2008-02-20 05:15PM | 0 recs
Re: The Big Sin

The Big Sin

agreed.

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 03:01PM | 0 recs
Re: The Big Sin

But calling Obama a sexist is all good?

by Socraticsilence 2008-02-20 03:14PM | 0 recs
Re: The Big Sin

Obama's top level surrogates have called the Clintons racists. I'm not talking about a few yahoos on the blogs spouting out nonesense (both sides are guilty there). Unforgivable.

by mmorang 2008-02-20 03:17PM | 0 recs
Obama supporters fail to recognize

that a lot of people hate Bush as much for his unquestioning loyal followers as anything else.

by JimR 2008-02-20 02:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama supporters fail to recognize

Really? All the dead people are equal to the "loyal followers".

Fascinating.

by BlueinColorado 2008-02-20 03:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama supporters fail to recognize

You must have a short memory. We hated him long before Iraq. They weren't even out of Florida and I couldn't stand him.

by JimR 2008-02-20 04:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Beautiful post.  I feel much the same way, but I don't have your verbal restraint.  I think the two-party system has failed America.  This system is not what the founders intended.  It has warped our democracy into a plutocracy run by a smug, manipulative, self-satisfied elite, of which Obama is the poster boy.

At this point, I think the best thing that could happen to the Democratic party is for it to take another beating at the hands of the Republicans, and it will, in November, if Obama is the nominee.  They sure won't be getting my vote, for the first time in more than 40 years.  They won't be getting the votes of all those red-state Republicans who crossed over to vote for Obama in our primaries, either.

I remember in 1963 when Ted Kennedy's brother, the sainted JFK, told Girls Nation that a woman could never be President, but maybe one of them could be First Lady someday.  Since then I've voted for lots of men -- Democrats all -- I didn't like, but that's over now.  And by the way, don't think that four years later I'll vote for one of the women who endorsed Obama.  Nuh-uh.

I look forward to watching as Obama, Axelrod, Daschle, Dean, Kerry, Kennedy, and all the rest of the smug manipulators and their camp followers -- including all the blogging Clinton bashers -- are run over by the Republican bus in November.  I'll cheer!

Am I angry?  You bet!

by PlainWords 2008-02-20 02:02PM | 0 recs
Re: I enjoyed that-- that was freeing to read

good eye, he did the same in 80

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 03:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Yes, cheer for more Alitos. You won't regret it, I'm sure.

by X Stryker 2008-02-20 07:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

For my husband, it's both Clintons.  The way Obama defiled their good name.  It disgusts him.  How ironic that Bill Clinton appointed Deval Patrick as civil rights attorney.  The third african american he tried to appoint, and the first he got through Congress.  Bill and Hillary both campaigned for Deval in the baystate, and the only way I got several people out to vote for him was by saying, come on, he's a Clinton appointee.

by masslib1 2008-02-20 02:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Amazing how Hillary was perfectly fine for campaigning for Obama when he was running for the Senate not so long ago and now she's just this side of the anti-Christ.  Throwing her under the bus for him says a lot about his lack of character.

by newhorizon 2008-02-20 02:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

You're right. Deval Patrick should have been more grateful. Obama should be more grateful too. They should both have a better idea as to what their place is, shouldn't they.

I mean honestly...can you READ your own comments? Do you know what you're saying?

by Elise 2008-02-21 09:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Well, I will make Obama's party my party- but right now it's gonna be a tough pill to swallow.  Not that I don't like him, but I cannot STAND a lot of his supporters.  They have been so condescending and self-righteous, it's hard for me to support Obama.
Will you listen to yourself?

Fast-forward to a possible future...History remembers the Obama presidency as not only one of the most progressive administrations ever but ground-breaking in terms of breaking the "glass ceiling" for minorities.

And when someone asks you why you didn't vote for Obama, are you going to say because his supporters were all jack-wads? For Christ sake, put it in perspective. For you to generlize that every Obama supporter is a foul-mouthed, 15-year-old fanboy is jacked up.

by desertjedi 2008-02-20 02:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Of course not every one is a 15-year old foul-mouthed fanboy.  A friend told me Monday that she voted for Obama, but that now that she knows more about him, she's sorry.  But many of Obama's supporters do seem to be pretty darn smug, and a huge number of them do write posts that, while perhaps not foul-mouthed, are definitely fanboy material.  Most disturbing is their twisted ability to explain away any fact that doesn't look good for Obama.  It's scary.  People like that can end up beating up dissidents.  I've already seen one video of that.  The guys who did it were laughing and the cops asked them what they thought was so funny and they just smirked.  Of course that extreme is a tiny minority, but I do think you should take a look at some of the people who are on your side.

That said, if Obama does become President, regardless of what he does -- and I don't think he will be effective, at least not compared to what HRC would get done -- it won't make up for getting there by stepping on my neck.

by PlainWords 2008-02-20 02:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I Live in Florida which is a swing state.many of us are choosing to stay home for the elections. This is not anecdotal. Check Rasmussen's match-ups. At this time Obama only gets 55% of Democrats. This can't be good. I know the numbers will increase as we get closer, but it is the lowest ever for any state.

by LadyEagle 2008-02-20 02:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

If Democrats in Florida would prefer a Republican President - perhaps they should re-register to vote as Republicans.

by Elise 2008-02-21 09:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Maybe register as Independents and write in my candidate.

by LadyEagle 2008-02-27 04:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Those of you who self-righteously assert you would rather vote for McCain than the presumptive Democratic nominee are rather confirming the suspicions of those who don't support Hillary in the first place regarding her message, hawkish foreign policy and natural base among dedicated, one might almost say fanatical, activists.

And it is particularly ironic given all the bloviating about Naderites and DINO's that was fashionable among you a few months ago and directed exclusively at Obama supporters, remember?  Doesn't it strike you as ironic that Hillary's most devoted constituency apparently favours McCain, an acknowledged hawk, over Obama, a liberal?  I'm at a loss for words to describe the hypocrisy evident from some of you in these recent diaries.

I reckon when the shock of losing the 'inevitable' primary sinks in you will all come to your senses.  Well, those of you who were actually Democrats in the first place, that is.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-02-20 02:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

1.  Refusing to vote for Obama does not necessarily imply voting for McCain.  That's something I have not yet decided.

2.  McCain is more of a hawk than Obama or HRC, and he tends to make statements that inflame people, like the 100-year thing, but it isn't clear that he would be anything like Bush at all as far as war is concerned.  I think he was one of the first to call for firing Rumsfeld.

3.  He's about the only Republican who cares about global warming.

4.  For those of us who make too much money to get anything out of the stimulus package, a huge tax cut will at least provide us with enough spare cash to donate to causes of our own choosing.

5.  I was a Democrat before you were born, but I won't be in November, if Obama is on the ticket.

by PlainWords 2008-02-20 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I was born in 1954, if that is any help.  I admire McCain too, on values issues and from the stands he has taken through his life, it is an impressive biography.  But on issues which we have progressvies have been working towards for decades he is diametrically opposed to what I understand to be our purpose on many counts.  But hey, suit yourself, that's what elections are for.

I like his position on electoral reform and government transparency, not to mention his anti-'nativist' stance on immigration.  But I ain't voting for him if Hillary snatches victory from the jaws of defeat.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-02-20 02:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Sometimes you have to take some bad-testing medicine in order to get well.  I think the Democratic party needs more of that medicine.  

by PlainWords 2008-02-20 03:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

First of all, I've never called people who don't vote for Hillary naderites.

Secondly, Obama hasn't given me a reason to vote for him. "Hope" and "change" are hollow platitudes to me.

My main issue is universal health care. Obama doesn't offer it but neither does McCain.

And the self righteous sanctimony of people like you makes me want to vote against Obama.

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-20 02:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Self-righteous sanctimony?  Ouch.  So you don't remember the Naderite and DINO sing-song around here a few months ago.  Short memory might come in handy if you are intending to vote Republican to spite Obama.  If you don't see our foreign policy issues as significantly more compelling than health care, for all of it's urgency, I wonder how you expect to fund it.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-02-20 02:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Actually I do see foreign policy as somewhat important and that a serious reason to vote against Obama. A candidate who makes clueless statements about Pakistan? He sounds like Bush did in 2001 & 2002. Why vote for that?

Why vote for someone who wants to sit down with our enemies without precondition? It's not that I have a problem talking to them but without any conditions? Don't you think that's a little reckless? He always lets others define the debate here.

I wasn't blogging back then so I can't speak to the DINO talk.

Funding? Argh, that should be the last worry of an Obama supporter. He plans to spend more money than Hillary. And he hasn't mentioned anything about balanced budgets. He'd be as bad a fiscal disaster as Bush has.

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-20 03:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I've written a few diaries on Obama's foreign policy which rebut your assertions, I'm sure you can find them if you look.  If you are planning to vote for McCain you might at least consider a different handle, 'Ga6thRep,' for example.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-02-20 03:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Ah, but I've done the studying on my own and don't need your diaries, thank you.

Yay, more sanctimony!

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-20 03:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

No, I'll bet you don't.  Well, then let me just gently suggest that your assertions are not merely incorrect but symptomatic of falsehood which may speak more to your world view than your scholarship.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-02-20 04:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Sorry but I disagree. One of Obama's biggest mistakes was getting involved in Kenya. And siding with the Odinga who lost the election and started the rioting and murdering. It was a horrific mistake. Do you think he did the right thing?

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-20 04:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Not so much.  But you are accusing him of an involvement for which he is not culpable.  His 'support' for Odinga was tacit and conditional.  You are connecting dots which are to far apart.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-02-20 05:17PM | 0 recs
Re: You're the Hypocrite--Check DKos History

On DKos look up the "Why I'll vote for McCain rather than Hillary" diaries,

Could you link to one? Thanks.

by BlueinColorado 2008-02-20 02:57PM | 0 recs
Re: You're the Hypocrite--Check DKos History

Don't go to DKos much, always seemed a bit trivial and tacky to me.  I've been plodding away here pretty much daily for about a year and am telling you there have been some changes over time.  First it was Edwards' supporters, than the Hillary tide later last year.  Obama supporters, bless 'em, have never been in the majority here but we have been fighting the good fight all along.

You don't remember the Naderite and DINO fad?  Man, did you miss something.  It was like the hoola-hoop around here for at least a month.  And now you guys are all jumping ship for the Republicans?  Because your candidate is sagging?  Surprise, surprise.

I stand by my remark, the hypocrisy is beyond words.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-02-20 03:03PM | 0 recs
Diarist should cut the crap

The statement you refer to was made by one person.  I denounce that statement.

Why do you automatically equate 1 person's quote (perhaps a troll making them) with all Obama supporters?

by bigdavefromqueens 2008-02-20 02:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I have yet to hear Obama talk about why he is running as the DEMOCRATIC primary candidate.  I do not see him focusing on issues/policies that are important to me as a DEMOCRAT.  This is why I can not support him.  I consider myself a moderate and think that based on what I have read, seen and heard, John McCain is closer to a leader than Barack.  John has a PROVEN record of fighting against many things the Bush administration has done and of working across the aisle with Democrats.  I think he is more likely to get things done with congress that are important to this nation than Barack.  Also, asa much as I hate the war I know there is no easy way out and that we need someone who understands the military to help us transition. That is why if Hillary is not the nominee I will vote for McCain.

by SueTexas 2008-02-20 02:13PM | 0 recs
Is there some other John McCain, maybe?

Because the John McCain who's running for President has voted the (Bush) party line 9 times out of 10, and has only taken one of his "maverick" stands on something like stem cells - where supporting it was a no-brainer that A) was destined to fail, and B) wouldn't cost him any political points with his own party.

The only other kind of "fighting" against Bush that McCain has done is something like the torture bill - McCain writes a bill that condemns and prohibits torture.  Bush rewrites it so that it applauds and allows torture.  McCain pushes it through the Senate with his name on it, and we're still torturing people.  Way to take a stand, McCain!

As for Obama running as a DEMOCRAT-IN-ALL-CAPS, maybe it's because we already know he's fairly liberal, and that if he gets the nomination, he's already got the same voters that went for Gore and Kerry.  But since both of those guys lost, he needs to also reach out to independents and dissatisfied Republicans, hence all the talk about unity and post-partisanship.

Let's face it - we maxed out the base in the last two elections, and both of them were close enough to steal.  If we keep trying the same thing that's failed over and over again, we deserve to lose.  Maybe we try something new.  Remember when Reagan reached out to disaffected Democrats, and because of those "Reagan Democrats" he won like 61 states in the general election?  God forbid any Democrat tries to do something similar - you know, win an election.

by schroeder 2008-02-20 04:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

This is a sad sad string of comments.  

How shallow are you people that because you don't like a single candidate, you will abandon the only party that cares at all for working people in this country?

How shallow is your feminism if out of discomfort with one candidate you will hand the country over to a man who has clearly stated his intention to do away with Roe V. Wade?

How shallow is your progressivism that you can let the over-the-top supporters of a candidate turn you into an enabler of a further disintegration of our great country at the hands of another Republican administration?

Quite frankly-- get over yourselves.  I don't like Hillary, but you can bet your ass I'll work to get her elected if she's the nominee.  If you have any commitment to progressive ideals (or morals, really) your personal preferences or hurt feelings must be secondary to the duty you have to keep another Republican out of the whitehouse.

by bluedavid 2008-02-20 02:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Oh, WE are the shallow ones?

Uh, which Democratic party was it that confirmed the nominations of Reynolds and Alito?  I have no duty to that party.

by PlainWords 2008-02-20 02:28PM | 0 recs
So you would rather sit it out...

...thereby giving either a defacto vote, or an actual one, for the party that put Alito and Reynolds forward in the first place?

But you are the real progressives. Got it.

by lestatdelc 2008-02-20 03:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican justices upheld Roe

Obama is a complete wild card - there is no telling what he will actually do if elected - although from what I have observed on the issues of gender, class, religious freedom, economics, and other issues, we are in for a bumpy ride if he is elected.  My bet at this point would be on McCain as the more experienced executive working with a Democratic Congress to make the better selection.

From Constitutional Law for Christian Students, Dr. Michael Farris:

"In 1992, the Supreme Court considered the case of Planned Parenthood of Southern Pennsylvania v. Casey, 120 L. Ed. 2d 674 (1992)... Justices O'Connor, Kennedy, Souter, Stevens, and Blackmun joined together to hold that Roe was still valid and that speculation on its demise should be put to rest.

"All five of these justices were appointed by Republican presidents. Justice Blackmun was appointed by President Nixon in 1970. Justice Stevens was appointed by President Ford in 1975. Justices O'Connor and Kennedy were appointed by President Reagan in 1981 and 1988 respectively. Justice Souter was appointed by President Bush in 1990.

"The only justice appointed by a Democrat president, Justice White, appointed by President Kennedy in 1962, joined three Republican appointed justices, Justice Scalia (Reagan, 1986), Chief Justice Rehnquist (Nixon, 1972), and Thomas (Bush, 1991) who argued that Roe should be reversed."

by Larissa 2008-02-21 04:54AM | 0 recs
It goes both ways

"I don't want to make it worthwhile for any other Dem to run the pigshit, low life, misogynistic, asshole campaign that Obama has"

That was on this website, posted by a hillary supporter in the comments section of an anti-Obama Diary.  There are extreme fringes in both camps that use extremely inappropriate rhetoric.  If you can't see that, in all likelihood, you are part of that fringe.

by shalca 2008-02-20 02:24PM | 0 recs
Re: It goes both ways

Let me explain something to you in simple words that even an Obama blogger can understand:  The Diarist did not say what she did not say.  Get it?  S/he only said what s/he said.  Or would you like to be responsible for all the low life misogynistic things that Obama bloggers have said?  Are you part of THAT fringe?

by PlainWords 2008-02-20 02:31PM | 0 recs
More nonsense

The entire premise of this diary is because there are some unhinged Obama supporters being dicks on hte intertubes, the diarist can't vote for Obama and wants nothing to do with the party he is in. Yet we see the same (if not more) vile crap from the supporter of the other Democratic candidate in a 4:1 ratio here at MyDD, yet the diarist doesn't express qualms about that candidate or their supporters.

BTW, your condescension with "Let me explain something to you in simple words that even an Obama blogger can understand" is exactly the same crap this diarist gets the vapors over if it were to come from an Obama supporter and were directed at the supporter of Clinton.

So spare us the fake holier-than-though schtick wrapped in a failed attempt at intellectual superiority, because it just makes you look like a jack-ass as you toss another turd to the punch-bowl.

by lestatdelc 2008-02-20 02:43PM | 0 recs
Re: More nonsense

Your post is aptly titled.

by PlainWords 2008-02-20 02:46PM | 0 recs
What next...

...the "I am rubber, Obama is glue" defense?

by lestatdelc 2008-02-20 03:04PM | 0 recs
Re: It goes both ways

What the Diarist did do at the very beginning, is quote an Obama supporter that was clearly out of line.  She uses that quote to assert a generality about Obama supporters and, along with other arguments, states that Obama has to take responsiblity for these supporters.

My point, is that insulting rhetoric comes from both Clinton and Obama supporters, and that those are the fringes of each campaign.  I don't believe that Obama is a misogynist.  I don't believe that Clinton is a racist.  I think people need to calm the f**k down and bring some rationality to these discussions.

by shalca 2008-02-20 02:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

by Monkey In Chief 2008-02-20 02:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Obama has made sexist statements. But Bill Clinton played the race card in a really nasty way. (Comparing Obama to Jesse Jackson) in S. Carolina and it cost Hillary the black vote.
With an Obama presidency, you're going to get a progressive agenda and supreme court justices that are pro-choice. And even if Obama is inexperienced and not ready to be president you still have a Dem in the White House that will be working with dem leadership in the house and senate to pass progressive legislation.

I don't know how anyone who likes Hillary could vote for John McCain or the GOP with all the sexist and misogynistic rhetoric coming from that camp. "How do we beat the bitch?" I mean that stuff is disgusting! And all John McCain can do is stand there and laugh! ughh!

by hnic357 2008-02-20 02:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Oh please, get real.  After South Carolina Obama and his surrogates were pronouncing the election over and anointing him President.  Bill Clinton merely pointed out that Jesse Jackson won big in South Carolina and did not win the nomination.  It's only one state, and not an average one -- much like Iowa is not representative.  At the time in the race when Bill Clinton made that statement, it was perfectly legitimate.

For Obama surrogates to call it racist, as his surrogates called Hillary when she dared to say that even the great Martin Luther King knew that his speeches alone were not enough so he worked with LBJ, and as Obama surrogates again called Hillary simply because she dared to seek the Hispanic vote, is just race-baiting.

Obama has proved himself a master at it.

by PlainWords 2008-02-20 02:44PM | 0 recs
Bill Clinton played the race card

in a really nasty way.

well, john lewis, andrew young and jesse jackson ALL disagree with you and say it was obamas camp that did this to cravenly try to increase their share of the black vote...

but fools like you continue with your slanders...

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 03:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Bill Clinton played the race card
I don't know what Jesse Jckson, Andrew Young and John Lewis disagree about, but here is the video of bill clinton saying Jesse Jackson won SC in 84 and 88.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqd2dfjl2 pw&eurl=http://www.talkingpointsmemo .com/
by hnic357 2008-02-20 03:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Bill Clinton played the race card

AND  WEVE LEARNED SINCE THAT THE CONVO BEFORE THE TAPE PUT IT ALL IN CONTEXT.

GOOGLE AND READ WHAT JESSE SAID ABOUT THIS.

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 03:24PM | 0 recs
Obama not sure he would have opposed war....
He said, after the Iraq War Resolution, That he THINKS he would have voted against it. Here's the link to the diary at Dkos where I discuss this, and to the video of his interview. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/4/2 05655/7980/652/449897 On this pedestal, rests a candidacy.
by arodb 2008-02-20 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama not sure he would have opposed war....

This video reconfirms his stance against the war. It doesn't call it into question.

by hnic357 2008-02-20 02:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I agree I will never vote 4 obama I will vote 4 macain

by mac08 2008-02-20 02:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

If you're voting for McCain then you're not a progressive.

And that comment by Bill Clinton comparing Obama to Jesse Jackson is/was a dog whistle attack. He was trying to say black people only voted for Obama b/c he's black. It's a dismissive statement.  Jesse Jackson won S. Carolina because it's his home state and he won a bunch of other primary in 84 and 88. Some of them where he received a large portion of the white vote.

As far as the LBJ statement Hillary made, that was completely factual historical analysis and had absolutely nothing to do with Bill's attacks on Obama in S. Carolina. I don't see how you can even compare the two.

by hnic357 2008-02-20 02:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

utter crap and bullshit.

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 03:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

THE DNC SUCKS I WANT MY VOTE COUNTED IN FLORIDA, I VOTED FOR HILLARY SHE SHOULD GET MY VOTE.SHE WON FLORIDA THE DELEGATES SHOULD COUNT FOR HER.obama campaigned in FLORIDA by running tv adds, HILLARY didnot so she wins.THIS TELLS ME THE DNC WANTS THE muslim TO WIN, WELL I SAY NEVER!FLORIDA NOT FOR obama.

by mac08 2008-02-20 02:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

'The muslim?'  Terrific.  I'm not sure Obama had your vote, ever.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-02-20 03:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Don't underestimate the Muslim issue. My child even came home from school saying all his friends were talking about how Obama's a muslim. Even MSNBC did a story called "Obama's Muslim Problem".

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-20 03:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

So when they do one called "Hillary's Bill Problem", and post a picture of him smiling with some woman in the same frame, you'll abandon Clinton? Cause the same kind of people who believe Obama's a muslim, are gonna take that as proof that Bill's 'up to his old tricks again'.

by BlueinColorado 2008-02-20 03:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Did I say it affected me? Uh, no. I said that the Muslim thing is out there and it's a lot more deadly than Bill Clinton's problems.

by Ga6thDem 2008-02-20 03:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

No. You said it should affect the rest of us.

But don't sweat it. It didn't make enough sense to warrant a logical explanation.

by BlueinColorado 2008-02-20 03:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

They are all politicians not saints. They all have fairly similar policy agendas but different ideas about how to marshal the needed power to make the policy papers reality.

I first supported Edwards because of his populist economic rhetoric but if you looked at Edwards the Senator he was quite different from Edwards the candidate. Political calculation? Maybe, but he was telling a story that needed to be told. Both Hillary  and Obama have done things that I wish they had not done but I'd happily vote for any of the three.

Hillary's vote on Iraq was inexcusable and her justification transparently absurd but can I say if Obama was in the US senate and already planning a run for president that he would not have done the same as Edwards, Kerry and Clinton? I don't honestly know. But he wasn't and I would be hammering Hillary on it too if I where him.

The Clinton's did play the race card but Obama's response was not totally above board he did parry with some distortions of his own. I wished it were not so and they where all perfect but that would be unrealistic.

So for those who won't vote for the other candidate because your candidate is pure and the other evil personified. Get a life.

by hankg 2008-02-20 02:57PM | 0 recs
The Clinton's did NOT play the race card

ASK  JOHN LEWIS OR ANDREW YOUNG OR JESSE JACKSON.

THIS CW IS BULLSHIT AND WHAT OBAMA'S CAMPAIGN IS ALL ABOUT.

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-20 03:21PM | 0 recs
Re: The Clinton's did NOT play the race card

The Clintons had tons of support in the Black community going into SC. Hillary was expected to get a substantial slice of African-American votes. That was until Bill decided to play hardball. All those Black voters who turned on the Clintons over SC are not stupid or overly sensitive. They knew exactly what was going on and they did not like it one bit. Instead of a handful of African-American politicians ask the 90% of Black voters who let their opinions of the Clinton's behavior be known at the ballot box.

by hankg 2008-02-20 04:59PM | 0 recs
Re: The Clinton's did NOT play the race card

Oh please. Don't be disingenuous. What does "Jesse Jackson won South Carolina twice" mean?

by fugazi 2008-02-20 08:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Clinton's did not play the race card, Obama and the media did.

by India 2008-02-20 05:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

More unfettered character assassination from the Clinton smear machine that just gets free reign on here.  It's so tiring and lame.

by NJIndependent 2008-02-20 03:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

yeah, this is a terrible website. i'd leave if i were you ;-)

by campskunk 2008-02-20 03:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I feel the same way about HRC and the debates and racism, watch every mannerism and it becomes clear that Clinton would prefer Obama in a white jacket bring her water, than actually deigning to speak. Seriously, though don't oyu think your being a bit overly sensitive?

by Socraticsilence 2008-02-20 03:09PM | 0 recs
Obama supporters don't realize

how offensive their insulting and at times infantile anti-Hillary comments are to her supporters. The media enters into this too and it's a complete turn off. As I wrote in a prior comment list it makes it difficult for me to vote for him in November.  Since I live in a usually blue state will see which way the wind is blowing as to whether my vote goes to Obama or just to local and congressional democrats.  It won't be for McCain but not sure if it will be for Obama.

by laternighter 2008-02-20 03:24PM | 0 recs
Really?

Obama supporters don't realize (none / 0)
how offensive their insulting and at times infantile anti-Hillary comments are to her supporters.

I realize the nastiness of Obama "cultists" is an article of faith on this site, but the fact is Clintonites give at least as good as they get. All of these comments were posted on this site in a matter of hours. If I had the time, I could probably get at least as many just as nasty from the last few hours.

I hope Obama gets the nomination and loses- this will send the Starbucks Democrats, the Obama cool kids, and hopeless idiots crazy. Other countries have gone through kicking out corrupt leaders like what we are doing, but I can't think of one country who would elect a entry level idiot as their leader. I'm voting for Green or Republican to give a big "Fuck You" to the elite bastards who want Obama as the nominee.

I would vote for George W. Bush before
I would vote for Obama.

[new] Obama Nazis go Elsewhere with your BS

We see enough of this BS at dKos
Does MyDD have to let slope forheads in here as well?

Obama is A NIGHTMARE of a candidate. Will be a NIGHTMARE as president if he wins - which he won't, of course, because if Obama's the candidate McCain will win - the corporate media will make sure of it.

I don't like Obamabots. Nobody does - except Obamabots. Because there's nothing to like - you're just exactly like freepers - vile, nasty and immature.

Heil Obama!

Yup. All those crazy, nasty Obamaniacs. All of those from this site, just today.

I think obama is too much of a thug in his own right.

I prefer Obama to Clinton but will happily vote for Hillary Clinton if she wins the nomination. The notion that people would abandon this country to John McCain because someone hurt their feelings on the internet (and I have heard this excuse far more than I have anything substantive, though those comments are usually fabricated out of whole cloth--like the notion that a politician with 100% ratings from NARAL and Planned Parenthood is secretly anti-choice, or just flat out racist like the "muslim" commenter a few comments up in this thread) the notion that people would abandon this country, and the world, to Bombs Away McCain for that reason is bewildering, and more than a little sickening, to me.

by BlueinColorado 2008-02-20 03:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

VERY WELL SAID.

by LindaSFNM 2008-02-20 03:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I can make a strong argument for voting for Hillary Clinton without even mentioning Obama let alone insulting him or putting him down.
I don't know why people feel the need to attack Sen. Obama as if his policies are somehow different then the standard Democratic party platform.

Even if as some have suggested that Obama's inexperience will hinder him, he'll still be working with a democratic congress that has the political wind at it's back. All the democratic issues: health care, iraq, education, global warming, etc. are all popular positions, which would be a huge change from the 1990's.
Obviously, the two candidates have different styles on how to get elected but I can't believe that they would have widely different policy policy positions once either of them are in office.

by hnic357 2008-02-20 03:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Thank God for a reasonable voice.  I applaud you and am glad that we can disagree on candidates more on what each one stands for rather than what each of their surrogates and supporters say about each other.

by shalca 2008-02-20 03:50PM | 0 recs
Amen and amen to you both

I am simply astounded by the manufactured hatred on this site, and people who are going to vote for four more years of war for reasons that, if they themselves do understand, they certainly can't articulate.

by BlueinColorado 2008-02-20 04:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Why can't Obama supporters see criticism of Obama as anything other than an argument for Hillary? Is it because their support for Obama is mostly just a vote against Hillary?

This diary isn't about Hillary, or voting for Hillary. It is about how the Democratic party has failed to stand up to the growing, ever more vicious, classism and sexism in its ranks and in the media. How it is, once again, failing to live up to its progressive promises.

I don't object to how Obama has handled himself in this campaign because of what it means for Hillary. I object to it because of what it says about his commitment to issues that I consider vitally important. I don't object to Obama's exploitation of race and gender issues because it means Hillary won't be president -- I never expected her to be -- I object because he may be our next president, and that's not the kind of president we need.  

Are there things worse than a Democrat losing in November? Yes. Following the disasterous Bush administration with another politician who doesn't stand for anything beyond personal ambition -- one who has already made it clear he won't stand up progressive values.

by esmense 2008-02-20 06:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

[quote]I don't object to Obama's exploitation of race and gender issues. . . [/quote]

Right there.  Right there is where you go from criticising a candidate to simply attacking him with little to no proof.  And what little proof there is, is so sparse and so lacking, that it is used by the extremes of both sides to justify their ridiculous charges, namely that Clinton is a racist and Obama is a misogynist.

by shalca 2008-02-21 12:11AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

If you don't see the proof it is because you don't want to see it. Obama has admitted that his campaign spun, and fed to the press, the phony race charges against the Clintons. He apologized for it in the Nevada debate (and then went ahead and did more of it).

by esmense 2008-02-21 03:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

The actual term used by Tim Russert when he asked the question was "pushed.".  The verbs "spun," "fed," and phrase "phony race charges" were not included in the question by Mr. Russert, nor in the answers by Senators Obama or Clinton; the story being that of "alleged comments made by the Clinton people on the issue of race."  Yes, the story was pushed.  No one asked if the story was true or not.  And I'm not saying it is.  I'm stating that Tim Russert asking the question about pushing the story does not answer to the veracity of the story.

Tim Russert also asked if this was a deliberate attempt to margianlize Obama as the black candidate.  Does asking the question also prove that Obama is deliberately being margianlized as the black candidate?

Perhaps you're seeing something that isn't there.  And considering that both candidates, during that debate, asked people to move on, I don't understand why we're still talking about it.

by shalca 2008-02-21 05:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

If Obama is the nominee as appears more likely than not, I will- with a heavy heart, but without a moment's hesitation- vote for John McCain. I love my country more than I love my party. Sorry.

by arkansasdemocrat 2008-02-20 03:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

So, judging from your tagline, you care about choice, so you're going to vote for someone who has a one hundred percent rating form every pro-life group, who has vowed to appoint judges who want to overturn Roe, who (whenever a staffer reminds him) avows his prolife convictions, instead of a candidate who has 100% rating from NARAL and Planned Parenthood, who has voted against a "partial birth" ban in the Senate, because of the politically motivated lies of a disgruntled Clinton supporter?

Brilliant.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsm emo.com/2008/02/connecticut_now_hits_oba ma_on.php

by BlueinColorado 2008-02-20 04:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I wonder if Obama supporters would be this pathological and pathetic if he were losing.

Maybe, but I think being cast down from the throne of inevitability has something to do with how loony and deeply hostile many of the remarks on this thread are.

I support Obama.  I'd be disappointed in HRC won the nomination.  It would (and never has) occurred to me that I would do anything but actively support her.

Dailykos is too much sometimes, I agree.  But if a pro-Obama person over there threatens to vote for McCain, they get trashed right quick by folks like me.

by jmr1948 2008-02-20 03:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I never thought I'd see the day when all the cherished progressive principles the Democratic party stood for were trampled in the dirt, one by one, with reckless abandon in Elmer Gantry's tent full of frat boys and fools.

What you said expresses my feelings perfectly, and I truly thank you for so eloquently doing so:

"Frankly, with Obama at the head of the party, I no longer have a clue as to what the party is suppose to stand for; other than being hipper than the Republicans. His own supporters, when they are honest, admit that he isn't an economic progressive. His foreign policy doesn't differ from Clinton's (and his advisors are all former Clinton people). And, his own behavior suggests that he simply doesn't understand issues of gender and class.

In fact, insensitivity to issues of gender and class are the things that, along with actual experience, more than anything else, distinguish his campaign from Hillary Clinton's."

by Larissa 2008-02-20 03:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

It's my belief that everybody will look pretty silly in the end ... when after all this, we see the two candidates hug each other and continue doing what politicians do. Still, I guess this too, the animosity between bloggers I mean, is part of the game now.

Just a thought.

by Freedom 2008-02-20 03:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

You know, that's the really sad thing. Clinton will be gracious and she will support Obama when this is over. Of course, the fact that she will, and that everyone knows that she will, gives the lie to all the ugly things they've been saying about her.

by esmense 2008-02-21 03:50AM | 0 recs
Same old Fight...

.....damn. Esemense writes a detailed, thought provoking article and all the comments it gets are the same old shit that is on EVERY other diary thread.

Do people people here lack creativity, or are you bored? Because every thread, no matter the topic, has the SAME sniping of obama vs. hillary supporters over the same issues, using the same comments and the same language.

Freaking christ.

by apolitik 2008-02-20 03:53PM | 0 recs
What an absolute load of crap.

I've seen some incredibly nasty shit from Clinton supporters all the way through this race.  This has nothing to do with the candidates themselves.  It has nothing to do with the Democratic Party as a whole.

You read that on a political blog.  Political blogs, such as this one, are basically about over-the-top rhetoric.  We've spent 8 years sharpening our knives against Bush and the Republicans, and when it's time to talk about Democrats, it's hard to put those knives away and use feathers.

To not support a candidate because of something some yahoo on the internet said is completely asinine.  And if you can't make the distinction between that yahoo and the candidate they support, then frankly, you don't deserve the right to vote.

Oh, and if I pissed you off by saying that, just remember I'm a Clinton supporter, so I guess you can't vote for her either.

by schroeder 2008-02-20 04:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Interesting diary. There is a lot of merit to the doubt about Obama's economic progressivism. But I think that's a problem with ANY U.S Senator.

Clinton's progressive economic bonafides come not from Senate record (which is tepid, at best), but the sense that she would pursue policies much like her husband President Bill Clinton did.

I've worked canvassed, phone banked and registered voters for local campaigns and I honestly haven't met too many real people who have a bad thing to say about either Clinton or Obama. Much of the base (non-blogosphere) actually likes both of them. The exit polls seem to confirm what I see. Maybe San Diego is different from the rest of the country.

My advice: Take a blog break. There isn't a more irrelevant community than progressive bloggers. As opinion makers and a decentralized rapid response team, the blogosphere carries influence. But in terms of electoral heft, there are precious few accomplishments.  

by crazymoloch 2008-02-20 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

You came away with the impression that Obama is sexist based on his FACE AND BODY LANGUAGE?

Wow.  Seems to me that your eyes are deceiving you.   Rather than seeing, they are projecting.

"She who fights with monsters should look to it that she herself does not become a monster."
-Nietzsche

by goodnbad 2008-02-20 04:20PM | 0 recs
Stole the Vote?

Please substantiate that charge, linfar.  Really, how DID Obama "steal" the vote?

by a gunslinger 2008-02-20 04:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Stole the Vote?

It can't be substantiated.  It's only stealing if you feel it belonged to you in the first place which, apparently, a lot of Clinton supporters did.

Regarding the SC Justices, there's not a single reason to believe that Obama would put an anti-Roe judge on the court.  It's idle speculation, at best, and I suspect it's actually a good deal worse.

by freedom78 2008-02-20 10:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Stole the Vote?

Linfar?  I have yet to see a substantiation of this charge from you or a like-minded poster.  

I have tried to see it from your point of view but I just don't understand WHAT you mean.  Steal the vote?

by a gunslinger 2008-02-21 05:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Stole the Vote?

It's not about facts, gunslinger.  It's about throwing mud and seeing what sticks.

by rayspace 2008-02-21 07:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Great diary. Thanks.

If you watch the progression of Obama's platform it has gotten more and more socially conservative with each passing day.

1. We don't know where he stands on women's right to choose.

  1. He doesn't have a universal health care plan.
  2. His economic stimulus plan doesn't address the housing crisis and he repeatedly suggests deregulation of credit card, and mortgage lending practices.
  3. He wants school vouchers.
  4. He believes No Child Left Behind can be fixed.

I could go on and on. Not to mention he's running on Ron Paul's no taxes and eliminating the IRS.

When it comes to the military he's no longer conservative but a Ron Paul pacifist. And ignorant about foreign affairs -- saying he'll talk to Ahmadinejad and bomb Pakistan is the kind of reckless cowboy talk that I no longer want in a president.

After 10 years of GOP talking bad about Hillary, and Obama's supporters repeating that hate within the democratic party as though we all feel it, too...well, I can understand why some got confused and thought that they hated Hillary. But, the sad truth is -- Hillary's agenda is far more socially progressive and aggressive than any presidential candidate in years. And, while she's more militarily conservative than some would like, she will get us out of Iraq, and she will be able to go head-to-head with McCain on national security. McCain is going to laugh Obama off the stage.

by seattlegonz 2008-02-20 04:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I'm sorry.... is this a parody of MyDD posters?

When it comes to the military he's no longer conservative but a Ron Paul pacifist. And ignorant about foreign affairs -- saying he'll talk to Ahmadinejad and bomb Pakistan is the kind of reckless cowboy talk that I no longer want in a president.

Did you cut and paste and leave out a couple of clauses? Is he a weak pacifist who wants to talk to scary Brown Man? Or a crazy cowboy who wants to bomb Pakistan?

Eliminating the IRS? What the fuck?

and if you don't know where he stands on choice, it's because you don't want to know, or you want to pretend the facts are stupid things (a fairly common belief around here, I know....)?

by BlueinColorado 2008-02-20 04:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

But he doesn't want to remove due process from immigrants and he wants to apply the USSC guidelines retroactively and he wants to ban the use of cluster bombs on civilians. HRC doesn't. Go figur.

by illlaw1 2008-02-20 04:58PM | 0 recs
HILLARY IS A WAR MONGER

Hillary Clinton is a war monger. I do not shy away from that statement one bit. Her campaign and her policy positions have disgusted me. I will not work and I will not contribute to her if she gets the nomination. I'll giver her my vote, but I won't encourage anyone else to.
She will lead America into a foreign policy malaise of Republican lite policies like her husband.

Remember Rwanda! Remember her 2003 Iraq vote!

Remember: She is a DLCer (a Republican-lite Democrat). She is unfit to be president not because she is a woman but because of what she has done.
I want Change. Change we can believe in.

by bzbergmann 2008-02-20 04:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Translation:

I transfer my own feelings of inadequacy on to the man who is defeating my candidate.  I have no actual proof of sexism in Obama, but as a woman I claim the right to label any man as sexist based on even the flimsiest of pretenses.  I'm taking my ball and going home.  GBCW (until the next anti-Obama diary shows up on the rec list)

by The Great Gatsby 2008-02-20 04:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Uh. And the effete latte liberal crowd that's supposedly the only Obama supporter. Or at least according to the man who introduced Hillary.

by illlaw1 2008-02-20 04:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Awesome diary.

It struck me when reading it, then looking at the diary about Obama floating Bush policies on school vouchers, that he and his minions want to fundmentally change the Democratic party, not for the better, but to make it more akin to the  repug party.

Some of the comments from the Clinotn haters sound just like repug soundbites. I also found out that Kos, Huf, and a couple of other so-called "progressives" are recent converts from the rethug party. Imagine that.

by India 2008-02-20 05:07PM | 0 recs
Yup

I also found out that Kos, Huf, and a couple of other so-called "progressives" are recent converts from the rethug part

You've figured it out. Kos has been running an elaborate five year ruse just for that purpose, to be a secret anti-Hillary mole in the blogosphere.

Jesus Christ.

by BlueinColorado 2008-02-20 05:12PM | 0 recs
Wow

Powerful diary.  My sincere thanks for the spirited defense of William Jefferson Clinton, who I continue to believe was a great president overall.

Beyond that, I'll bite my tongue a bit...I'm still a Democrat, even if Obama gets the nom, and even though his campaign has been the dirtiest campaign I have ever seen a "big stage" Democrat wage against a fellow Democrat.

OK, maybe I won't bite my tongue...

No REAL Democrat should condone the following:

1.  Distorting Bill's fairy tale comment into a full blown AND FAKE issue of racism.

2.  Harry & Louise Redux flyer.

3.  Clintons are bad for America flyer.

There are many other issues, but those three are the "Big 3" for me, and all three are unforgivable.

John

by SluggoJD 2008-02-20 05:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Wow

Actually, the point where the Clintons introduced race into the election in an attempt to divide the party was when Bill said "Jesse Jackson won South Caronia twice." His fairy tale comment was just stupid.

by fugazi 2008-02-20 08:07PM | 0 recs
Actually, you're mistaken

A review of your posting history here shows that you've been trolling against the Clintons ever since you showed up.

So forgive me if I think you're troll.

Try addressing the 3 main points I raised next time.

by SluggoJD 2008-02-20 09:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Actually, you're mistaken

Ahhh I seeee. Arguing facts against Hillary and Bill is "trolling." Hee hee! Good one!

by fugazi 2008-02-21 07:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Whine Whine.

You guys are grasping for straws Clinton I ready from day one can't even run a good campaign!!

Squanders money and neglected delegates in Red States

Has a  lousy spokesperson

Plays the Race Card over and over

Obama 08 get over it we will be more progressive than Bill and we won't lose the congress back to the  republicans...
 

by jproctor 2008-02-20 05:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

This isn't about Clinton. It's about voters who don't even know the party's history and will believe anything the spinmasters tell them.

The congressional Democrats lost the congress in '94 because of their corrupt behavior. Do you know who Rostenkowski was? Long-serving and powerful Illinois congressman who was charged with keeping "ghost" employees on his payroll, using Congressional funds to buy gifts for friends, trading in officially purchased stamps for cash at the House post office? He was forced to resign in '94, eventually pleaded guilty to reduced charges of mail fraud and was fined and sentenced to prison. Do you know about the House Banking Scandal?

Look it up.

by esmense 2008-02-20 06:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Oh the Race Card 80% of African Americans aren't voting for Obama because he is Black.  The Clintons brought this on themselves.

PA Governor still keeping race alive in this campaign.  Either he is using the Clinton Talking points or she can't control her people.

Either way it lose lose with African Americans

All we have to do is win 3 out 4 and its lights out

by jproctor 2008-02-20 05:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Do you even know how the US govt works? Are you just here b/c of Obama? If you think the Clintons are racist, you are dumb as nails. The stereotype about Obama supporters being morons seems to ring true on this site in recent weeks.

by bsavage 2008-02-20 05:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

African Americans have every right to employ strategic bloc voting to make their voices heard. In fact, nothing could be more democratic.

But if you're gonna go all-in for Obama, you better be sure he is the real deal. Has he addressed substantive issues relevant to the immediate lives of most African Americans? Disproportionality in home foreclosures? Insane disproportionality in prison population and mandatory sentencing laws? The never-ending disparity in the education system, including continued segregation in much of the country? The stunning lack of health care for so many African Americans?

If he won't address the community's needs now, do you really expect him to once he gains power?

If you want to hope for the best, that is your right. I'll hope for the best too, but brace for the worst.

However, the demonization of the Clintons is just not fair. They were the first people in the White House since LBJ to give a rat's ass about AAs. Tossing them under the bus for supposedly klannish comments the media insists are vile (since when is mentioning Jesse Jackson in the same sentence as someone such an obvious diss? I, for one, have always thought Jesse was great) seems short-sighted in the extreme. No they are not "owed" anything except your truthful acknowledgement of history. Whereas everyone else has ignored or even actively oppressed the AA community while in the White House, they gave a damn. Look at cold hard facts and don't get swept up in media narratives. Real life is played out everyday by all of our material conditions, not by propaganda forced down our throats by a corporate-owned media.

But you're entitled to your opinions to be sure. I hope you won't slam me for expressing mine, but based on the level of discourse lately, I won't have hope for civility.

by dr benway 2008-02-21 10:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

If obama is the nominee, Im going to vote for the next Bush: John McCain.

Another great Obama supporter: "Obama 08 get over it we will be more progressive than Bill and we won't lose the congress back to the  republicans..."

I cant wait till Obama loses. I dont want this asshole in the in the WH..EVER!

by bsavage 2008-02-20 05:44PM | 0 recs
Thank You

Thank you for writing this.  I have been walking around for the past few days feeling really scared.  I'm angry with my party and you've articulated all of the reasons why.  I have asked myself if I even wanted to vote in the November election if he is the candidate.  I can't in good conscience vote for a Republican when so many of their views go so far against my own.  However, I also can't in good conscience vote for a candidate that I have so many fundamental problems with.  

I have found that myself and my friends that are HRC supporters seem to be mature, clear headed and passionate people who just want our candidate to win.  When I talk with Obama supporters I feel like I'm at a Frat party.  They can't articulate why he should win beyond how inspiring he is and how uniting he is.  Wasn't Bush those things to the Republicans 8 years ago?  The comments from Obama supporters on all of these blogs tend to be self-righteous and hateful and it just makes me sick.  

Unlike you I am not in a place where I can change my party and I was raised to take voting very seriously.  So, I can't in good conscience not vote.  I feel sick and confused and frankly I just want it to be over so that I can go back to my life and hope that things get better in 4 years.

by xopherma 2008-02-20 05:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Thank You

I have found that myself and my friends that are HRC supporters seem to be mature, clear headed and passionate people who just want our candidate to win.  When I talk with Obama supporters I feel like I'm at a Frat party.  They can't articulate why he should win beyond how inspiring he is and how uniting he is.  Wasn't Bush those things to the Republicans 8 years ago?  The comments from Obama supporters on all of these blogs tend to be self-righteous and hateful and it just makes me sick.  

New here, are ya?

I hope Obama gets the nomination and loses- this will send the Starbucks Democrats, the Obama cool kids, and hopeless idiots crazy. Other countries have gone through kicking out corrupt leaders like what we are doing, but I can't think of one country who would elect a entry level idiot as their leader. I'm voting for Green or Republican to give a big "Fuck You" to the elite bastards who want Obama as the nominee.

I would vote for George W. Bush before
I would vote for Obama.

[new] Obama Nazis go Elsewhere with your BS

We see enough of this BS at dKos
Does MyDD have to let slope forheads in here as well?

Obama is A NIGHTMARE of a candidate. Will be a NIGHTMARE as president if he wins - which he won't, of course, because if Obama's the candidate McCain will win - the corporate media will make sure of it.

I don't like Obamabots. Nobody does - except Obamabots. Because there's nothing to like - you're just exactly like freepers - vile, nasty and immature.

Heil Obama!

I think obama is too much of a thug in his own right.

Just scroll through this thread and you'll find a lot more "mature, clear-headed" comments from HRC supporters.

by BlueinColorado 2008-02-20 06:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Thank You

I'm proud of my comment- Thanks for citing it!

by bsavage 2008-02-20 06:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Thank You

Well, I'll give you this, you're a proud and honest crank, not like the rest of these hypocrites who fling their delusional, dishonest poo with one hand while clutching their pearls with the other.

by BlueinColorado 2008-02-20 06:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Bsavage

Join the savage nation you are their type!

If you put in as much time into the Party as I have you would have a right to gripe.

So cut your nose off to spite you face watch more innocent American Kids go off to war and die Or have them kill somebody's wife or child and call it collateral damage

by jproctor 2008-02-20 05:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

My one vote wont make a difference. Talk is cheap, I'm not depressed, so I dont need hope or inspiration. A campaign slogan cant pass legislation.

by bsavage 2008-02-20 06:12PM | 0 recs
Leaving the Party

I have been thinking hard about leaving the Democratic party before the fall and registering as an independent.  The party structure that stood by during this season and did not say a word about the trashing of a past president, and did not say a word about the sexism in the press about one of the leading candidates is not for me.

I agree with you about Obama's arrogance and attitude against women.  It is obvious as well as his own wife's attitude about Hillary Clinton.

I will reregister as an independent until the party does something about the many different states that allow crossover voting in their primaries.  As a member of the party, I shouldn't have to compete with independents and republicans to elect the nominee to the party.  I also do not want to belong to a party that passes off the votes of over 2 million democrats and tells the actual voters that their votes don't count for shit in this democracy.

I don't want to the Obama party either.

by Scotch 2008-02-20 06:32PM | 0 recs
It's not about Clinton anymore

I am in exactly the same position as the diarist and compliment her for articulating my feelings so precisely.

I am a lifelong Democrat and party activist for close to 20 years.  I've held my nose and voted for a number of presidential candidates that made it very difficult.  "My guy" has not been the candidate in all but two elections in 36 years.  I've never once even considered voting Republican and doubt I could this year.

In my mind Senator Clinton is a dead issue.  I fully accept Obama as the candidate. I will not vote for him in November and I am weighing my options -- I will probably leave the presidential slot blank -- the first time in 36 years I have not voted the straight ticket.

And I will not be silent with my friends and family about my decision.  By attacking the Clintons and dismissing the accomplishments of other great Democrats of the past twenty years Obama has lost my support.  Beyond that, I have a list of reasons I cannot in good  conscience put my vote behind him.

This is the most difficult political decision I have ever felt forced to make.  I never before could understand third party voters but I do this year.  I cannot and will not put the party before my own principles.  Unfortunately and sadly, they have never diverge this far before.

Thank you again to the diarist for the eloquent resonant post.

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-02-20 06:43PM | 0 recs
Feminists thrown under the bus

I never thought I'd live to see the day feminists were thrown under the bus by the Democratic Party.  The party and Obama Democrats have sat back and said nothing through the months of media sexism.  I never thought I'd have fellow progressives argue with me that sexism is not real or wasn't so bad, all to serve principles of convienience.

I never thought I'd see a mainstream party candidate attack and smear other Democrats as ineffectual, worse than Republicans, racists and corporate shills.  

I never thought I'd live to see a Democratic candidate praise Ronald Reagan but not Jimmy Carter.  I never thought I'd live to see a Democratic candidate call Hillary Clinton a war-monger and President Clinton a bigot.  I never thought I'd hear a fellow Democrat refer to the "Clinton Smear Machine" or "Billary".

I never thought I'd see a Democrat back away from universal healthcare.  I never thought i'd see a Democrat attack fellow Democrats to woo breakaway Republicans.

The party that supports the candidacy of Senator Obama may call itself the Democratic Party and still retain the list of familiar Democratic names but it is not my party anymore.

 

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-02-20 07:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Feminists thrown under the bus

I'm a feminist for Obama.

And I thought feminism was about the right to make one's choices about one's life.

And here's the Feminists for Peace and Obama, which has many members, including well known feminist activists, writers and intellectuals:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/NYfem inistsforpeace/

by mainelib 2008-02-21 06:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Grassrootsorganizer:

This is extremely well-said.  It is thought provoking.  I agree with so much of this. You stated most of my thoughts, and I thank you for a very well written diary.

And yes, I really do mean it.  You may get some negative feedback from others, but not from me.  My jaw hit the floor when I first saw the ridiculous outpouring from Obama supporters.  Could we as a party really be so stupid.  Has no one who is 'educated' or 'upper class' seen the 2007 debates?  Obama is giving us such spin right now...how can anybody see him as 'progressive' when he has so many pro-corporate interests, as he admitted in the debates!  It really is very sad.

by findthesource 2008-02-20 07:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Yellow dog talk about distortion.

First Hillary got bad advice from Bill or someone on the war and has trailed the public on getting out

I don't believe that Obama called her a war-monger but she has rattled more than a few sabers.

Clinton the bigot Obama never said that but the Clinton teams drags race into this campaign time after time...  PA Governor just last week.

Universal Health Care is an ideal but lets get there  someday by making incremental progress today.  We won't get to 60 Democratic Senators with Hilary at the top of the ticket so it is not going to happen with her either.

Her best buddy Joe Lieberman will lead the charge against it from the right...

Quit if you want but you have put the hours in for years like I have before you can make the case that the party is headed in the wrong direction.

I Knocked on doors for 30 years led voter drives formed clubs traveled held office traveled to other states...

Obama is going to do wonders

by jproctor 2008-02-20 07:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Senator Clinton made a difficult decision on Iraq and her reasoning is well laid out in her signing statement.

Saber rattling is not war-mongering.  I thought Barack would bomb Pakistan -- saber rattling?  or war mongering, you make the call.

Obama campiagn not using the Jesse Jackson and the MLK/LBJ remark?  I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.

I don't hear Obama talking about the ideal of universal healthcare.  He's selling it selling it out to pander th youth.

I've got 36 years in myself, my friend.  20 years of them as an activist, 10 knocking on doors every other November as a union organizer.  

Believe in Obama if you choose to.  I cannot and will not support this candidate.  

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-02-20 07:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

jproctor:

Your Lieberman insinuation is misplaced if it is meant to be an attack on Hillary. She and Lieberman may indeed be collegial and work together on Senate issues. I thought the Obamatons aspired to work more intimately with the Neocons in the spirit of bipartisanship?

But, in reality, Obama sought out Joe to be his mentor in the hill when he first arrived in 2005 and also supported Lieberman over Democratic candidate Lamont in 2006 when Mr. Joementum subverted the party with the help of Connecticut's wealthy GOP ruling class.

These are simply facts, use the Google. Your insinuation is uninformed.

by dr benway 2008-02-21 08:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

'do wonders' like what?  he can't say specifically.  i can't live on a dream.  i like the specific plans of HRC.  From the debates of 2007, I can tell you exactly what Obama said he will do:
(1) continue the expensive wasteful wall between USA and Mexico, AND create one between USA and Canada.
(2) Send troops to Pakistan "if the Pres. of Pakistan does not cooperate."
(3) give immigrants drivers licenses - which is dumb because then they will get caught
(4) give into republican corporate interests because this is how to compromise.

So, I ask, how again is this 'doing wonders'?????

by findthesource 2008-02-20 07:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

"She didn't win my vote, Barack Obama, by his own behavior and tactics, lost it."

Just curious what bevaviour by Obama to which you're referring.

by fugazi 2008-02-20 07:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party


The diarist very well articulated, a lot of us
painfully feeling about Democratic party in general.

It is pain to watch the way Obama and MSM tried to malign two term successful Democratic president in a half century.

Truth will prevail and Obama can not tarnish
Bill Clinton's legacy for long.

by BlueSea 2008-02-20 07:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

This diary was nothing but a bunch of whining and self-pity.  I guess it was ok when her top New Hampshire campaign adviser asked if Obama might be a drug dealer, or when Bob Johnson introduced her at a rally with another cheap shot about him doing drugs while she was working, or when Bill Clinton dismissed his win as being like Jesse Jackson's as the "black candidate" or when he called a grown man, a kid.  All of those instances by some of her closest advisers are ok, but Obama uses the word "periodically", you want to make Obama responsible for every nasty thing said by the media, Republicans and Independents and now he hates Hillary and all women.  

This is nothing but the height of being a sore loser.  If you can't see that a lot of ugly and vicious things were said on both sides, then you are the epitome of a homer.  Someone who sees nothing but righteousness for their side, and something approaching evil on the other.  So, take your ball and go home if you are so unreasonable that you only want to see the reality that makes you righteous.  We have two great candidates who are both worthy of taking the mantle of the Democratic party and if you can't see that then its your loss.

by GobBluth 2008-02-20 08:57PM | 0 recs
SUPREME COURT, SUPREME COURT, SUPREME COURT

supporters on BOTH sides are guilty of the same insensitivity. it's all over the place, and BOTH sides disappoint me. you may think you've neatly characterized it as an obama-only thing. i think not.

that having been said....the next president will likely choose 2 more supreme course justices. if you haven't been looking at the papers for the last week, have another look. the court is already VERY skewed, and if mcccain picks the next two justices, your feeling of not belonging in obama's insensitive democratic party will look quite insignificant to how you feel about belonging in a country with a radical right supreme court.

by james c 2008-02-20 09:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican justices upheld Roe

You don't know what Obama or McCain will do.  McCain, as the more experienced executive, working with a Democratic congress, could very well pick a better justice than Obama, whose only national experience was at the feet of Joe Lieberman (who Obama chose to be his mentor in the Senate) and whose history and conduct during the presidential campaign makes me distrust him enormously on gender, class, religious freedom, and other issues.

First link I could find was from a conservative publication (hence the "is hoped for" terminology) - Constitutional Law for Christian Students, Dr. Michael Farris:

"In 1992, the Supreme Court considered the case of Planned Parenthood of Southern Pennsylvania v. Casey, 120 L. Ed. 2d 674 (1992). It was widely hoped that the Supreme Court would finally reverse Roe v. Wade in this case. Those hopes were dashed when Justices O'Connor, Kennedy, Souter, Stevens, and Blackmun joined together to hold that Roe was still valid and that speculation on its demise should be put to rest.

"All five of these justices were appointed by Republican presidents. Justice Blackmun was appointed by President Nixon in 1970. Justice Stevens was appointed by President Ford in 1975. Justices O'Connor and Kennedy were appointed by President Reagan in 1981 and 1988 respectively. Justice Souter was appointed by President Bush in 1990.

"The only justice appointed by a Democrat president, Justice White, appointed by President Kennedy in 1962, joined three Republican appointed justices, Justice Scalia (Reagan, 1986), Chief Justice Rehnquist (Nixon, 1972), and Thomas (Bush, 1991) who argued that Roe should be reversed."

by Larissa 2008-02-21 04:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Excellent diary. Thank you. You said it all. If BO gets the nomination I won't vote for the first time in my life.

by bayareavoter 2008-02-20 09:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I've never voted for a Republican in 40 years, so I will not start now.  Obama will get my unenthusiastic vote if it comes to that, and I hope the rest of us come around, too.

by Bob H 2008-02-21 01:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I cannot in good conscience vote for Obama and I will not.

by Larissa 2008-02-21 04:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I've been lurking around this site for awhile now, but it took this diary to finally get me to login.  I couldn't agree more with this diary.  I too have been wondering what has happened to my Democratic Party.  It no longer exists.  I will continue to contribute to Hillary's campaign and to Emily's List.  I will vote for women who stand for real "family values", no matter what their political party affiliation.  I am no longer a Democrat.  Perhaps we do need to create a new party...a Women's Party.  Our base would consist of all classes, all races, all, religions and all genders(including transgender).  

by bach 2008-02-21 03:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Oh yes, what an elitist candidate Obama must be == He has the endorsement of the Teamsters Union and the Boilermakers and SEIU and the Food and Commercial workers.

by mainelib 2008-02-21 06:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Barack Obama Does Not Support Labor!

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/n ewyork/ny-bc-ny--nyprimary-firefig0131ja n31,0,1033800,print.story

UNIONS--8.5 Million Strong--Who Endorsed Hillary Clinton:

American Nurses Association (2,900,000)
United Farm Workers (27,000)
AFT Connecticut (28,000)
International Union Of Painters And Allied Trades (160,000)
DC 37 New York Public Sector Union (121,000)
Service Employees International Union  Local 32BJ (100,000)
Service Employees International Union Local 1199 (300,000)
International Alliance Of Theatrical Stage Employees, Moving Picture Technicians, Artists And Allied Crafts Union (100,000)
Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Union (100000)
Office and Professional Employees (OPEIU) (125,000)
Amalgamated Transit Union (ATU), 180,000
Sheet Metal Workers International Association (SMWIA) (105,000)
IATSE Stage Employees Local 720 in Las Vegas (4,500)
American Federation of Teachers (1,400,000)
International Union of Bricklayers and Allied Craftworkers (100,000)
Public Employees Federation (57,000)
National Association of Letter Carriers (300,000)
Transportation Communications Union (65,000)
International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (700,000)
United Transport Union (125,000)
American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME) (1,400,000)
International Union of Operating Engineers Local 324 (Michigan)
United Food and Commercial Workers Local 1500 (New York)
New York State Professional Fire Fighters Association (25,000)
Dolores Huerta (United Farm Workers Leader)
Richard Chavez  (United Farm Workers Leader and brother of Cesar Chavez)

Barack Obama has never supported unions.

This is nothing but political opportunism.

The fact that the Teamsters and SEIU waited until Barack Obama was ahead to endorse is just a pathetic admission that labor has been so weakened under the Republican majority, that they are now willing to sell out their own constituency. Believe me, we're a Teamster family; the vast majority of Teamsters will not go out and work for Obama. This is a leadership position based on political opportunism. Both my husband and I support Clinton; we are very disappointed to see Teamster James Hoffa bow to Republican influence.

It's a sad day for LABOR. Because Hillary Clinton has always been a good friend to the Teamsters, and to LABOR. Hoffa stabbed Clinton in the back with this, and it's really sickening.

You want to know the truth about Obama and unions? Here it is:

Obama refused to support union pensions, other union issues  
01.12.2008  

http://www.goiam.org/content.cfm?cID=117 08

Fact and Fiction on the Campaign Trail
Senator Barack Obama recently released a television campaign ad that highlighted an IAM leader from Galesburg, Illinois. Only the back of his T-shirt was visible and it says, "JOBS! Worth Fighting For." The image was memorable. But so are the facts.

"Illinois State Senator Obama came to a single rally as union, state and community leaders tried to keep the Maytag plant in Galesburg open," said IP Buffenbarger. "Once elected to the United States Senate, he never lifted a finger to help stop the outsourcing of those jobs. He stood idly by as an entire Illinois community was devastated."

When United Airlines declared bankruptcy, it happened again. Thousands of airline workers in Illinois saw their pensions disappear, their health care benefits shrink and their wages fall to pre-1996 levels. When those blue collar workers need his help, again Senator Obama stood idly by.

"As Senator Obama's rhetoric flourished, his own constituents' lives dissolved," said Buffenbarger. "His new-found zeal for the trade issue seems more rhetorical excess than real passion."

A United Airlines Pilot writes:

I loved barack when he first came out; not anymore.  He better not talk about not taking money from big business, because if you work for United Airlines you know that is what he did... When we were going thru bankruptcy, he was set to sign on to a bill to save our pensions, at the last minute he voted against saving our pensions, and then said he couldn't vote against his constituent united airlines from his state of Illinois... he is a liar... he is also spineless and gutless... he has screwed us on alot of other worker friendly issues. i dont care who wins, but not this poser.  (Monday, August 06, 2007)

by Tennessean 2008-02-21 07:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Can't Obama Tell The Truth?

Why didn't Barack Obama remember taking Antoin "Tony" Rezko on a tour of the Chicago house he wanted to buy?

I don't know why Obama supporters think this will not resonate in the general election. The Obama campaign is slow-leaking this Rezko thing and it looks bad.

This raises serious questions about Obama's honesty and integrity. You can dismiss the site which compiles the information, but seriously, the Chicago Tribune, an FBI agent, and the Obama campaign's own behavior do raise serious questions about this issue:

It now appears that Obama and Rezko were strolling through the house Obama could not afford shortly before Obama and Rezko purchased the manse and its "lush side yard" in June of 2005.

Previously, Obama has been at pains to state how infrequently he met with Rezko.

Q: Senator, when did you first meet Tony Rezko? How did you become friends? How often would you meet with him, and when did you last speak with him?

A: I had attracted some media attention when I was elected the first black President of the Harvard Law Review. And while I was in law school, David Brint, who was a development partner with Tony Rezko contacted me and asked whether I would be interested in being a developer. Ultimately, after discussions in which I met Mr. Rezko, I said no.

I have probably had lunch with Rezko once or twice a year and our spouses may have gotten together on two to four occasions in the time that I have known him. I last spoke with Tony Rezko more than six months ago.

Obama recalls meeting with Rezko "once or twice a year". However, at the same time an FBI mole says Obama visits with Rezko were much more frequent:

But sources said that, for more than two years when he was giving information to agents, Thomas provided a fly-on-the-wall look inside Rezko's real estate operations and his desperate attempts to keep his projects afloat.

Sources said Thomas also logged frequent visits to Rezko from Gov. Blagojevich and U.S. Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.). Blagojevich and Obama were among the many politicians for whom Rezko raised campaign cash. Neither has been charged with any wrongdoing.

The Obama campaign, perhaps in anticipation of testimony at the Rezko trial is "refreshing" the memory of potentially troublesome witnesses and all of a sudden recalling the stroll through the manse with Rezko.

"...After pushing the line for a year, that the entire story of how Obama financed the purchase of his mansion on June 15, 2005 with money from indicted slumlord Rezko, was old - the Obama campaign has brought new facts to the drama. We now finally know the names of the sellers, they are doctors who worked with Michelle Obama. They are supporters of Obama. The Obama campaign wrote memos for the sellers of the now Obama mansion, had the sellers agree to sign off on the memos, then sent the memos via email to a reporter from Bloomberg News.

You can't make this stuff up:

Rezko's wife, Rita, also an Obama donor, bought the adjoining plot in Hyde Park from the couple, Fredric Wondisford and Sally Radovick, for the $625,000 asking price, the same day that Obama bought the house for $300,000 less than the asking price. Antoin Rezko was under federal investigation at the time. [snip]

The sellers hadn't previously made their side of the story public out of concern for their privacy, according to Bill Burton, a spokesman for Obama's campaign. They approached Obama's Senate office 15 months ago and agreed to break their silence now through the campaign out of concern that the story was being distorted in the media, Burton said.

Burton said Obama, 46, toured the property with Rezko for 15 to 30 minutes at some point before the purchase. Burton said Obama wanted Rezko's opinion of the property because Rezko was a real-estate developer in the area. Burton said he didn't know when the pre-sale tour occurred.

Burton said a campaign adviser discussed the sale with Wondisford by phone and followed up with an e-mail to Wondisford repeating his points. Wondisford responded: "I confirm that the three points below are accurate," according to the e-mail, provided to Bloomberg News and authenticated through records shown by the adviser. [snip]

Wondisford has declined to talk directly about the matter.

So for 15 months the Obama campaign and Obama supporters Wondisford/Radovick, the sellers of the Obama/Rezko manse/yard, have been communicating and getting the story "right".

Why did the Obama campaign provide these additional details to Bloomberg News and not to the Chicago Sun-Times or the Chicago Tribune?

Both Chicago papers have repeatedly asked the Obama campaign to speak with reporters conversant with the details of the Obama/Rezko entanglements.

The Chicago Tribune agrees that this latest Obama attempt to shush the Rezko story has merely raised additional questions:

Before he bought his South Side mansion in 2005, Sen. Barack Obama took his friend and fundraiser Antoin "Tony" Rezko on a tour of the premises to make sure it was a good deal, Obama's campaign revealed Monday.

Weeks after saying he'd answered all questions about his controversial dealings with the now-indicted Rezko, Obama released new details about their purchase of adjacent lots from the same seller on the same day. But the disclosures by Obama's presidential campaign left unanswered questions and raised new ones.

Obama was able to buy the house for $300,000 less than the listed price while Rezko, in his wife's name, paid the full $625,000 asking price for an undeveloped side lot. [snip]

Obama has been reticent to discuss Rezko since the Tribune in 2006 revealed their property transactions. He has called their financial dealings "boneheaded" because, at the time, Rezko was reported to be under grand jury investigation. Rezko is set to go on trial next month on corruption and fraud charges.

The campaign declined to share the sellers' e-mails with the Tribune or elaborate on the Bloomberg story. Spokesman Bill Burton said in a statement: "Despite the many extensive investigations into these questions and the numerous attacks we have weathered from the [ Hillary] Clinton campaign, the resounding conclusion has been that the transaction was completely aboveboard."

It's not clear why Obama had not previously divulged Rezko's tour of the house with him. In 2006, he told the Tribune he recalled talking to Rezko and his wife "either at an event or some conversation we had where they mentioned to me that they either knew the property or knew the developer or something like that.

Obama and Rezko strolling through the soon to be purchased house Obama could not afford. That's a vivid image.

Source: www.hillaryis44.com

by Tennessean 2008-02-21 07:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

I haven't yet seen anyone explain what FAVORS Obama purportedly did for Rezko.  What exactly is the accusation?

With the recent McCain story, the claim is that he did favors for the telecom industry.

If there's no quid pro quo in the Rezko situation, then there is no scandal.

Oh, and the seller of the house said that Obama diThe couple who sold Barack Obama his Chicago home said the Illinois senator's $1.65 million bid ``was the best offer'' and they didn't cut their asking price because a campaign donor bought their adjacent land, according to e-mails between Obama's presidential campaign and the seller."

"The sellers ``did not offer or give the Obamas a `discount' on the house price on the basis of or in relation to the price offered and accepted on the lot.'' It also says that ``in the course of the negotiation over the sales price,'' Obama and his wife, Michelle, ``made several offers until the one accepted at $1.65 million, and that this was the best offer you received on the house.''
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2 0601103&sid=a_9sOMpy91Js&refer=u s

by mainelib 2008-02-21 07:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Wow, that hillaryis44 site really is a nasty place.  The latest story is that Obama is a flim flam artist. What a way to insult the majority of voters in this year's primaries and caucuses.  

by mainelib 2008-02-21 07:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Wow, this is an excellent diary. It connects so many of my disparate and confused feelings about this primary process.  

I'm sure you were blogswarmed by the Obama SS in the comments, so I won't even try to engage there, but I just wanted you to know that I appreciate this considerate analysis and you are NOT ALONE.

I don't know where we go if Obama sews this thing up. I'm willing to give him some time to attempt to articulate a coherent vision for the party that's less reliant on the language of late '70s New Agey spiritualism. And maybe he will. But if he doesn't, then out of principle, I'm leaving the party.

There are still many of us who are still inspired the material gains in the lives of everyone that were gained in the New Deal and Great Society eras.  We understand what amazing things the government is capable of doing.  Our numbers may indeed be fading, but there are still enough of us around to make our voices relevant to ANY candidate who wants our support.

Anyway, thank you for this diary, I can tell it comes from both your heart AND your head.

by dr benway 2008-02-21 08:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Why Obama's Party Can't be My Party

Right you are! Thank you for your powerful diary.

by no pasaran 2008-02-21 09:06AM | 0 recs

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