...if only to catch more memories and stories. I'll also put the link to the piece in a diary once it's ready for publication in a few weeks time.

I liked the part where the son of the man who wanted to cut Obama's balls off and called him a ni**er said that Hillary was a racist for not crying more about katrina.

My favorite period was during "FingerGate", "Shrug-gate" and "Hip_Hop_Song gate";

I swear there were like 50-100 diaries about IF Obama flipped Hillary off, IF the Shrug was "the worst insult in the history of politics" and IF Obama was quoting a song JUST to diss Hillary.

People were acting like Obama was some version of Ted Bundy, and he should drop out, some crazy suggested he should drop out of the race, quit the senate and live his life in eternal shame.

All for some camera angle, and a two second gesture with NO PROOF either was directed towards Senator Clinton.

There was hyperbole running rampant, and those who were endless touting how tough Senator Clinton was, were acting as she must be avenged lest this horror go unpunished!

I think any observer dropped in from outer space would have thought he was in a version of Gullivers travels, where the two countries were fighting a war over whether to crack your eggs from the thin end or the thick end....

congrats - this sounds like it is going to be a wonderful article.  i certainly hope that you will share it when its done.  

that said - i think that the thing that sticks out to me about the whole netroots movement is that there are a large majority of people who are so rude, inflammatory and down-right mean.

my opinion is that if one chooses to go online to debate and/or participate in activism that it goes to show that they are you know actually looking for debate and discussion?  to me the above group - perhaps with the anonymity of the internet are shutting that down.

(oh that and how people used right-wing smears and framing against a former first lady and presidential candidate)

The one thing I'll always remember is how absurdly neutral things became sexist or racist, desensitizing me (and possibly others) to those cases when sexism or racism did make an appearance.

My personal favorite came towards the end of the process, when a diarist insisted that asking for decorum and no chaos at the rules committee meeting was sexist, since it implied that Hillary voters were hysterical females. After being exposed to that type of commentary for months, watching the YouTube video from... somewhere... that documents the sexism in the media during the primary battle was surprising.

Well, in part because I don't watch the 24-hour stations anymore, but also because I had grown so weary of tenuous or false claims (against the media, Obama and myself) that I didn't put much effort into investigating every claim to see if it was valid. Apparently, more of them were than I expected.

Good luck on your story, I only hope that this diary won't devolve rapidly into a flame war.

Now quotes are taboo

My favorite is when this guy's son

http://gawker.com/tag/videuhoh/?i=502360 9&t=jesse-jackson-i-wanna-cut-obamas -nuts-off

Said this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNrlSn7nd AA

Oh and when 1984 tactics entered with Team Obama trying to deny history...

Wow you are really censoring this thread aren't you....

plenty of ideas -- they'll cover it better than I could, as my business seems to have rendered me incapable of coherent thought. I hope you'll mention my beloved engels, however. S/he's the troll we've all grown to know and love, and I'm sure s/he'd love an honorable mention.

One question, will you be mentioning people's handles?

Oh, and Brit... if you fail to mention fingergate, I will be extraordinarily disappointed in you. Such overwhelming hilarity mustn't be forgotten. Please, I beg you to immortalize it.

...about themselves! LOL! Something new and different...  (Snark.)

LOL!

(I'd compare this diary to being a hooker at sailor's convention. I give this 5 mins. before it's on the top of the Rec list! And, for the record, I'm going to be a total hypocrite--aren't we all--and rec it, too!)

Never before have so few been so pretentious over so little.

in 2002, I think I would say a couple of things:

1.  The flame wars here were no worse than the flame wars on DKOS in '04 between the Clark and Dean people.

2.  The blogs are much more self-conscious now than 4 years ago.  I have never thought that what goes on the threads was more than a conversation between a limited group of people. There are some people, however, who now believe that what happens in the threads matters. As a result there was an increase in outright propoganda in 2008 over 2004.

3.  The most surprising thing about the blogs in 2008 was how passive their owners were.  There were no front page endorsements at DKOS - mydd was one of the few blogs before Iowa where it was clear that there was a point of view. The above it all attitude of some of the main bloggers was the biggest surprise of 2008.

4.  After New Hampshire and South Carolina, the blogs had become either an Obama or a Clinton site.  

I didn't participate in the flame wars during the primaries. Lurking was much more fun. I was originally an Edwards supporter, although I did give Richardson a brief look, mainly because of the experience angle. I started backing Obama after Super Tuesday, when it became apparent he really did have a chance.

The main reason I didn't support Hillary at any point was because I thought she was too much of a hawk. I was afraid she would feel the need to act tougher than a man to prove that a woman could be an effective CIC. I'm not a misogynist. I wouldn't necessarily think that of every woman. It was based on Hillary's statements, nothing more.

That's all personal background and doesn't really have anything to do with the basis of the diary. I just wanted to make it clear where I'm coming from.

The main thing I got from the primary wars was how intense everything became. Normally, candidates are under a magnifying glass during the heat of a campaign. It seemed a lot worse online. There, it seemed like the candidates were operating under an electron microscope. Every little thing got blown out of all proportion.

Everything, and I really mean everything, became an instant battleground. Obama scratched his face? OMG, he gave Hillary the finger! Hillary mentions RFK - OMG, she wants Obama to be assassinated!

I can't speak for all lurkers, but this bystander thought it was ludicrous.

Each non-incident begat days, sometimes weeks, of non-stop, over-blown rhetoric from both sides. It didn't matter how silly or sophomoric the issue was, it would still get beaten to death.

The other notable thing is that I didn't see any minds being changed. We had one side sitting there and shouting, "Tastes Great." Across the divide the other side was shouting, "Less Filling." I didn't notice anyone getting up and moving from one side to the other.

Did any of the online rhetoric really change anyone's mind? I don't know. I doubt it changed the mind of anyone that was participating in the flame wars. It might have changed the minds of a few lurkers. At least, the ones that were already leaning one way or another. Mostly I thought it was a big waste of pixels.

It is small wonder that Shakespeare is one of the most quoted writers of all time. He got this one right too. "...full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."

The idea that Clinton won the popular vote in the Michigan primary by 100% was so stupid that it became brilliant.  Only a genius could have thought of that talking point.  

It would be interesting if you could document the different waves of GBCWs and bannings. Seems to me it was back in March, a fairly large group of posters couldn't keep the racism out of their posts, warning about thugs and riots and Angry Negroes lynching whites.

Also, it was around this same time that a large group were working desperately to persuade themselves and others that Obama was secretly anti-choice. Call it "Presentgate". Not as funny as finger-gate, but moderately more substantive.

And if you want to do an epilogue on the Deadenders, SoCalDarlin'  is now devoting herself fulltime to the birth certificate 'controversy', and Alegre believes in magickal superdelegates who are secretly planning to switch back to "Our Girl!!"

And one that you should dig up: When Alegre used the woman who Wal-Mart was trying to cheat out of her insurance to raise money for Hillary. That was a true low point.

As you write about the Primary War....could you edit the truth a wee little bit....and call me Admiral Kysen?

You could expound upon my bravery in battle, my courage under fire, my boundless patriotism...and my really, really shiny boots.

I am sure it will add a certain flash and panache to an already engaging tale.
Or not.

;)

(looking forward to seeing the finished product...even if I don't have a prominent role in it)

What I remember is the intense waves of homophobia coming from Obama supporters. At DKos got told that 'gay people aren't very popular'. That we are an insignifigant minority who should be happy that we are allowed to vote D. That gay issues should have the lowest priority of any among liberals and progressives. That we need to accept and treasure AA homophobia. The ongoing refrain of gay inferiority, the STFU and support Obama routine, is what I remember. And to this day I don't know if I would vote for him given all the shit his supporters threw at gay and lesbian Democrats.

You might also post this at Alegre's Corner.

a discussion of flamewars.

I wrote this diary in February
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2 /7/62957/72680/846/451737
Titled "Gearing Up to Vote for McCain"

It received a hair short of 1600 comments most of them not at all HELPFUL (more proving my point than anything else) and I pride myself on having written on of the first if not THE first McCain threat diary.

Rereading it just now I'm struck by this passage --
"I've lost count of the number of times I've been hurt and insulted by the rhetoric coming out of the Obama campaign, aimed at Hillary that ricochets and hits me. Experience doesn't matter. Unconventional experience is not real experience. If your husband is a dumbass so are you. You've f$cked things up so bad only young people can fix them. You're stupid because you watch the Hallmark Channel. You don't understand the real issues. Your marraige says more about you than your own accomplishments. If you cry you must be weak. If you cry you must be unstable. If you cry you must be putting it on to get attention. If you show emotion you can't be trusted. Your ambition is unattractive.  Your ambition is suspect. You've worked hard and accomplished things, but those accomplishments are now irrelevant. All tough women are ball-busters."

That pretty much encapsulates my "Kos Experience" for the month of January 2008.  

I went on to stop posting or visiting over there, not as part of any mass defection, but because I was afraid the crowd would drive me off my party and my ideology for good.  In other words, if this was the new progressive Democratic movement it's time for me to find a new label for myself.

for the record, the minute Clinton put her candidacy on hold I intended to vote Obama, and since that time I've come to love the guy ad I'll work my tail off for him.  And, oddly enough, I'm currently now as cheesed off at the unfair and twisted crap being thrown at him as I was back in February for what was being written on Kos about Clinton.

As someone plenty old enough to remember elections pre-internets, these forums are a beautiful thing.  You get to vent your spleen, learn, share, bond and feel very sorry for those who can't seem to exploit forums as a place to GROW as so many have through this historic season.

Somewhere someone taught some folks that there was some honor, or courage or purity in putting your hands over your ears and screaming as loud and as abrasively as you can.  Frankly, I just think the internet allows those folks with the social skills of possums a place to interact with others, however embarrassing that should be for them.

and yes, if I ever voted Repubican my hand would fall off, now or then.

Good luck with your article.  One of the key aspects of the "primary wars" which often gets overlooked, I think, is the role played by the calender.  39 out of 55 races were over by Feb 19.  If one were to treat the primary season as a football game, it's as if the first quarter lasted for four weeks, the second quarter took place in a day, the third quarter lasted for two weeks, and then you had this long fourth quarter which lasted for almost four months.

So to make sense of how this played out among the netroots folk, it's worth exploring just how much this front-loaded calender influenced things.  It's easy to forget just how much Daily Kos, for instance, started out as the website for those who supported John Edwards (and this didn't change until he left the race), or that the writers strike at the same website occurred on March 14 (which was relatively late in the game, ie. most people had already voted).

While it's a safe bet that most British readers aren't familiar with the intricacies of the primary calender, I'll suggest most Democrats haven't really grasped the effect this had on the race (eg. the period when people could debate which candidate someone should support was actually quite short, basically six weeks).

And here's the proof that people haven't digested all of this.  If you ask around, I don't think you'll get many definitive opinions about what the Dems should about the calender in future cycles.

Should the whole process be curtailed so it only lasts for six weeks?  Should the Dems have events like Super Duper Tuesday?  Should they continue with the current system of bellwether primaries (eg. Iowa, South Carolina).  Or should these contests be more evenly spaced out, so that in a process which lasts for 24 weeks there can be no more than, say, 10 contests a month?

If we're just talking about this season, though, think it's pretty clear that most of the flame wars were much more about people arguing over the result than trying to get others to back their candidate (two competing narratives sprung up to explain what had happened, which is very different from "I support Candidate Smith, I'd like you to do the same, and here is why").

Fingergate. Don't forget Fingergate.

I would definitely emphasize how easily supposed 'civil discourse' became name calling, false accusations, and just all around unpleasant-ness. ['she'll do anything to win' 'they are just words' 'she's divisive' blah blah blah]

Neither side was willing to cede any ground or back down to the other side. It was less and less a discussion or exchange of ideas [which is what I thought netroots was about] and more about who could yell the loudest. It was Obamabots v Clintonistas.

vey much like an all out sibling smackdown. so childish at times. and in the long run after all the fighting, you realize 'shit. im related to this kid...' or I guess in this case we all just want to end the Republicans reign of terror;

he used sexist talking points "Hillary is crazed for power" is a sexist characterization of a woman who dares to seek the most powerfu

duende, very worthwhile project. Remembering the primary battle on mydd makes me sick to my stomach literally. [And some obama supporters are still fighting it.] I could send you pages and pages and pages of vicious, hateful slime comments in diaries I posted. I was called a troll, a racist, a Republican plant. Reason was impossible. The atmosphere was vicious and intense. Discussion was unwanted. All anyone wanted to do if they disagreed with you was annhilate you. I cannot tell you the times people on Hillarysvoice said they could not even stand to read the comments in my diaries.  

Though I have decided to vote for the Democratic nominee the war has not ended. Obama and his surrogates take every opportunity to insult Hillary!

duende, if you would like to see the tenor of the primary fracas--in a more mile form--just check out the comments in this diary:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/7/29/1359 55/277

mild form

One of the more notable moments of the primary for me was the diary by Universal that showed a video conflating Obama and 9/11.  It got the attention of several prominent right wing blogs and the guy went to all of those sites claiming that he had nothing to do with the video and was just showing what we would be up against.  The funny thing is that now that he's been banned, he's pumping out those videos left and right (same music, clips, everything)... so it's obvious he was the original creator to begin with.  I actually wrote my one and only diary during this period, because I was so disgusted by the video and the press it was getting outside of this site.

Redstate to MyDD: Thanks?

Another notable period was when the mods started banning the more inflammatory diarists like TexasDarlin and linfar (yes, I know she's on board now... just retelling history) and we had all those diaries like "The Disappeared" comparing people who were banned to people who were murdered in the night.  An interesting time, to say the least.

1.  there was a strike against DKos; most of those strikers came here
   
2.  777denny....

It's worth noting that, given the anonymous and impersonal nature of online communication, people have a tendency to over-emote in their prose, in both positive and negative directions. This is still the Wild West in terms of communicative ability and community identity. The past two election cycles have proven that if nothing else.

But I'll be most interested in reading your take on the way Markos and Jerome handled the admin duties at their respective sites.

Markos pulled rating privileges during the height of the Obama/Edwards/Clinton battles (as I recall, instigated by the recs given, out of pure tribal loyalty, to a particularly vile post). Some relatively innocent members got caught up in it, but many of them fully deserved being neutered for the duration. I may be wrong, but I don't remember many bannings there made for anything other than the usual stuff people get banned for: spamming, hijacking, being unrepentant flaming assholes, etc.

Over here, Jerome played a more active role, and seemed to take a much heavier hand in suppressing the supporters of a single candidate. He repeatedly came to the defense of diarists whose material and behavior were frequently indefensible, and banned users who simply dared to challenge them or him.

The previous relationship of Jerome and Markos as co-authors and blogfathers to one another makes for a fascinating dimension of any analysis, one that would be of interest to historians, I suspect. The directions they took, both in the candidate they supported and the way they managed their blogs, are as worthy of discussion as any anecdote from the primary flame wars.

Speaking of which, some of my favorite hyperbole from the primary came when someone diaried about how Obama's discussion of Reagan "stings my soul." That whole generational aspect of the battle was compelling on its own.

1. When Kos was trying to prove that HRC was racist by looking at darkened pixels of a Obama photo.
   
2. When Dana Houle was fantasizing sexually about HRC.
   
3. CBS produced the video about Tuzla and HRC's comments were proven wrong. Was lying a strong word?
   
4. The Strike (nothing more needs to be said)
   
5. Jerome deciding to clean the slate and banning or remove TU status of many users at MyDD.
   
6. Mysterious video popping up on Youtube falsely alleging that Mickey Kantor was using N-word..adding to the racist charge of Hillary campaign.
   

• fairytale comment*..He did it, so did Jesse in 1984.
  
• My office is in Harlem..implying I cannot be racist.
  
• Obama's campaign did a hack job on me
  

10. Obama's speech on race. One of the finest moments in the primary.
    
11. Unity, New Hampshire..the happiest time of the Primary..
    

Great diary.  It's probably too soon to get historical perspective on the Dem primary wars, as evidenced by the comments that have accrued. To my mind, blog commentaries are the most vivid proof of Chaos Theory.

I am mostly a lurker to both KOS and MyDD, since my internet time is spent browsing about 20 different blogs, left and right, and I can't really get through all that I want to read before my butt goes to sleep and I have to get up and go do something in RL.

Besides the Pavlovian vitriol between the Obamabots and the Billaryites which made the conflict between the Hatfields and McCoys look like love and marriage, the most depressing thing I noticed was that all of the issues that inspired all of the battles were items in the mainstream media, mostly television.

Most of the things mentioned in the diary, such as the fingergate, the RFK assassination meme, the sniperfire gate, the bittergate, this were all media saturated wonders and they were all so contentless and trivial that they didn't deserved any of our concern.  They were all "gotcha" politics, part of the sensational media, similar to Britney no underwear, or the Laci Petersen murder marathon.  All designed to get you to obsess about something that has absolutely no bearing on your life, your future, your chances at prosperity, security and happiness.

This is the Roman empire, losing the Republic to dictatorship while the people get their bread and circuses.  While we may not be completely  in control of our politics or our nation anymore, at least let our eyes be open to the truth.

This election is not supposed to be about Obama, Clinton or McCain.  It's supposed to be about taking our country back, at least among the Leftwing blogoshere.  But there is so little discussion about what we citizens need from our government to get us to believe in life in America again.  

I'm as guilty as anyone.  It's easier to react to the hottest diary and get all upset and involved in the minutia.  

But I really really want to know what Obama is going to do in his first 100 days.  Is there a hint from his campaign?  Did he make an announcment after his meeting with his economic advisors?

Ugh... think I have Primary Flame War PTSD.

The utter, utter lowlights (sorry to rehash this) to me, personally, were the following:

1. Hearing certain people argue that Obama said "Auschwitz" instead of "Ohrdruf" was a deliberate lie to win more Jewish support, because "Ohrdruf wasn't as bad". Don't MAKE me repost the photo of the bodies from Ohrdruf again.

2. After years of us in the Blogosphere mocking Bush's idiocy and his rejection of science and his appointment of fellow morons to important government posts and the dumbing down of America, SUDDENLY the new bogeyman becomes "Elitism"! All of a sudden, people start arguing that Obama is too "Harvard-educated" to be president! AND MY HEAD SPINS OFF ITS AXIS AND FROTHS AND AAAAAHAHHHJGHHIUKHGLJKHJKLHJK!!!!!!!!
   
3. People insisting that Barack and Michelle came out to "99 Problems" (by Jay-Z) because, you know, The New York Post said so.
   
4. People suddenly arguing that Fox News was a great, fair news source.
   
5. All the sh**ty misogynistic comments and idiotic "jokes" and playground insults hurled Clinton's way, along with all the obsession over crying. Embarassing. And yes, I did in fact troll-rate this stuff despite literally being for Obama from day one.

I just had a flashback and for the life of me wish I could track down the diary.  It sat on the rec list for most of a day.
It was on Kos, sometime in February probably, where an Obama supporter who had worked at a caucus (Iowa I think)  was explaining why he did so well in the caucuses in a very upbeat "not trashing Clinton" manner.  One central premise of her argument was (and I paraphrase, but do not exaggerate)

"And I think Obama would have done even better except Obama supporters have kids or go to school or have jobs and Clinton supporters are usually empty nesters who don't work or have any real responsibilities so it's actually easier for them to get to caucuses."  

And a shitload of people piled on TO AGREE WITH HER.  

Around the same time on Kos there was a diary about sexism (one of the first if not the first) and the comments were UNBELIEVABLE right down to commenter after commenter declaring sexism a dead issue, yah know, because it really doesn't exist anymore. And come to think of it, it never was really all that bad anyway.  ON A PROGRESSIVE BLOG.

I couldn't believe the agreement to crap like Hillary killed Vince Foster, rehashing of Travelgate for Christ sake, Hillary should have single-handedly unionized Wallmart when she had the chance, Hillary was no feminist because she didn't divorce Bill fo cheating on her....

And if I had to vote on lowest moment ever -- beyond the darken picture stupidity it would have to be the various permutations of Crygate. IT showed me how many people out there have serious mommy issues.  

This whole thread is giving me the willies, what with its dredging up of things that shouldn't have seen the light of day in the first place. Not many of us did ourselves or the process proud with the insanity that the primary wars became. I hope this doesn't bring on Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome in all of us. As fun as it is to rehash lets keep our eyes on the prize!

A little of what I remember...
When Jerome was in charge there were purges....
Citizens such as alegre and tex(LA)darlin were given free access while those of us who attempted to refute their blinder bullshit...lost privileges and more...

However,; as it played out...these two(and so many others)have since exposed themselves...

After the shake out....
MyDD has returned as one of the important places...
I was banned under nogo war because of caustic refutations to both alegre and tex(LA)darlin.

Were there comments that may have been too personal as a result of the encouragement given by Jerome to folks that have proved themselves to be what they really are? Yes...but I remain unrepentant.

Tap yer toes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICILUwI_p 14

of course I meant "their" not "there"...
tap yer toes..

Fuck McCain and the GOP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTW0y6kaz WM

Those of us who were here truly remember the purges
involving...

"Is this snark"?

When Jerome came to the full tilt defense of alegre
by banning so many...

"By a wave of his hand
his response for transgressions.
Not enough of us,
made appropriate confessions"...Burma Shave

Tap yer toes...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8pa4yfYq 0A

Coll

I look forward to it.

I'm sure you will do a great job

I agree with Linfar, remembering the primary wars literally makes me sick to my stomach.

Probably the most memorable thing and the thing that will have the most impact on the Democratic party for me will be the constant denigration of the Clintons, period.  There has been, and still is, a movement by the 'progressive' folks in the party to rewrite history and make everything Clinton ever accomplished an evil deed. That is what strikes me most about the primary wars, folks who supposedly are Democrats reacting to the only two term Democratic POTUS in our lifetimes as if they were GOP minions.  It's definitely sickening to remember.  The GOP couldn't destroy the Clintons, but the 'progressive' Democrats made a heck of an effort to leave as many battle scars as possible on them.  Sad state of affairs.

As a disclaimer, before folks decide to call me names or TR my commment, I am now an Obama supporter.  I can support the person and the ideology while overloking the actions of some of the supporters.  I wish other folks could do the same and we could leave the PUMA crap where it belongs, in the dust bin of history.

I think that the movement to sideline the Clintons comes from all sorts of Dems, much of the left that hated his DLC ties and his triangulation, some that were repulsed by the Lewinsly affair, and most important of all, the old Dems in congress who were the power brokers of the Dem party, whose careers were made in opposition to the GOP presidents, and who resented suddenly having to bow before the upstart Dem president from Arkansas.

Then there were the Washington elites who ran the social and intellectual world of politics, the Brahmins like Broder and Ben Bradley, who wrote the Who's Who of the Capitol and who decided that people like Bush and Kennedy belonged to the ruling class and people like Carter and Clinton did not.

It's like the court of Louis XIV, a closed society of king and courtiers, and those from the country are rubes.

I think books have been written about this, but I can't remember the titles...

Some low moments:

When the owner of the big orange blog whose name I dare not write accused Hillary of darkening Obama's image in one of her attack ads.  Google "kos" and "tinfoil hat" and "race-baiting" to find the link.

When Keith Olberman was allowed to post (read: pimp his anti-Clinton tirades on his TV show) at the big orange monster.