didnt' see you muchd uring the primary wars.

Anythign we can do to change your mind?

Anyone who votes for John McCain is not a supporter of Hillary Clinton. She's made her position clear:

No way, no how, no McCain/Palin.

You either support her, or you don't. Voting for McCain is the ultimate act of disrespect for Hillary Clinton and the ideals for which she advocates. Anyone who can't acknowledge that is delusional, or simply a hypocrite.

This whole thread is silly. How can we know if these people are real? They could be McCain operatives or just Republicans messing with Democrats? I know one PUMA who is either voting Nader or Obama. He still hasn't decided. I don't think any sincere Democrat would vote for McCain.

Yay for irrational spite!

I was about to say "check the diarists history", but it's been erased for whatever reason.

Karajan72 used to spam reverend wright, larry sinclair, and tony rezko updates all through the primaries, regardless of the diary topic  And that's it.  I don't think this person is a Democrat in that I've never seen a single post in favor of Clinton.

brought up McCain's vile divorce (that was the Reagans), nor has he brought up McCain's black baby (that was Bush).

We do not hate mccain here. I long for a Republican party that I might support, and I grieve at the evil that you support.

Teh media has never been a reason for supporting one candidate over another. Your duty is clear: elect the best candidate for POTUS.

Any Questions?

At least they can't call Obama mulatto (that was Adams on Jefferson)... eh?

HAHAHAHAHAHA
oh man for a second I thought you were serious until

Rove and Bush's attacks on Democrats in 2000 and 2004 are nothing compared to the hate being spewed at McCain/Palin and was done to Hillary.

oh man that is just, wow lol yeah oh wow.

I got nothing after that man, I got nothing.

if it didn't effect the rest of us, I would hope for McCain to win, so we could see people like you complaining for 4 years that everything McCain/Palin would do in the next 4 years would not in any way be your fault. but everyone else for making you have to vote for McCain.

lol

Huh.

Well, I just don't see it.  I've been thinking that Obama's campaign is about the most positive I've seen since Carter in 1976.  And I haven't seen as hateful a campaign as McCain's since Bush, Sr., 1988.  But your vote is your call.

A woman who can not name a single print publication, refuses to take any questions from the press and encourages her supporters to shout out 'kill him' and 'terrorist' is now the victim of hate?
How much crack is in your pipe?

McCain is running the most vile campaign in recent history.  Bush ran a saintly campaign compared to what McCain and Palin are doing.

If Hillary saw you, I am sure she would smack you up along side your head.

Well, while I had serious problems with many of the Obama supporters over at dailykos during the primary season, they are not the candidate himself.  I've not seen anything untoward coming from Obama personally - in fact, he's run a pretty positive camapign in total.  

So, count me as a Clinton supporter who will happily cost his vote for Obama.  

I really don't see how any seriously issues-oriented former Clinton supporter could do otherwise.  To vote for McCain is to vote contrary to so many issues true Democrats (regardless of whom one backed in the primary) hold dear.  

Therefore, I am forced to conclude that those Democrats who have deserted to McCain were either 1) really not interested in the future direction of the country, 2) not interested in the issues, 3) unable to get over the psychic bruises of the primary, or 4) trolls.  Of course it could also be a mix-n-match of any or all of these!

Proud to have supported Clintons in 1992, 1996 and 2008.  Also proud to support Obama!  

Let's retake the government!

I switched my loyalty to Obama when she pulled out of the race.  I'm a Democrat first and foremost.  If you're busy volunteering for Obama's campaign right now, you're probably working side by side with some of the women you insulted.  I'm one of them.

I've noticed when visiting some of the PUMA blogs recently that they're solidly infected with right wing talking points (ACORN, criticizing Ohio SOS Brunner, etc.) and seem to pick them up right on schedule just as they hit the internet.

From my observations, most of the web sites that became a haven for Clinton supporters during the primary when they were booted from Dem political forums (big mistake)were faux Hillary sites run by GOP operatives.

Sadly, many Dem forums like DU and DailyKos, fell for the GOP dirty tricks and ended up booting loyal Dem Hillary supporters right into the GOP tricksters' waiting arms.  MyDD was one of the few sanctuaries.  Most of us were too savvy to fall for the faux Hillary supporter web sites, but I'll guarantee you, Dems probably lost quite a few new and independent women voters to this scam.

Words of wisdom to the Dem forums for next time. Don't ever do a massive purge of Dem voters just because they don't support your primary candidates and don't let GOP tricksters lure you into the trap again.  

I respect the strength of your convictions; I disagree with you about the facts, but I won't argue, since it sounds like your mind is made up.

But have you considered voting for a third party candidate, like Ralph Nader or Cynthia McKinney? As someone who posts on MdDD, you're probably a Democrat with progressive values; why not take the opportunity to vote for a progressive candidate who doesn't pose a real threat to your party (and to all the good Democrats whom Obama would appoint to offices in the executive branch)? You'd still be symbolically voting against Obama.

There's only 4 reasons at this point in time that anyone can be 'solidly' with McCain, given how his campaign has become a triumph of the absurd.

You are die hard Republican and even a stupid insane hack like Palin being a heartbeat away from the POTUS doesn't matter to you, so party over country;

You are 'rich' and voting your ideology ($$$$) over country;

You are right wing and voting your religious wingnuttery over country;

You are down right racist.

Choose which you prefer to be remembered by.

Have you counted all you're cats?  You should.  Obama may have stolen a few.  He and Bill Ayers like to snack on them while they plan bombings.

At this point, the puma "movement" consists of a couple dozen republicans, dixiecrats, and psychologically unstable obsessives whose purpose is to support and validate each other's delusional thinking and destructive agendas. Their websites have only a passing interest in Hillary Clinton and her policies, and are more dedicated to promoting McCain/Palin and destroying Obama in front of their tiny audience. They've allied themselves with the republican opposition, and are no longer associated with real Democratic politics and ideas or the issues that matter to progressives. They'll try to convince you otherwise, but their transparency gives them away.

True enough.  They're nowhere if Obama wins, and especially if Obama wins by a landslide.  That's why I think one last olive branch is in order.

Virtual mojo to you, sir.

From what I've seen here and elsewhere, the still-vocal PUMAs are flabbergasted that Obama is ahead (as they were when the sun rose every day since HRC's loss), and are looking for any available excuse.  The less hard-core ones have switched to Obama while adopting a "hold-my-nose" pose to save their egos.

Yeah, but how many have left those sites?

That's about as good of a taxonomy of the PUMAs as I've seen.

Actually there's even a schism in the first group, with Anglachel and a few others taking issues with the white supremacist tendancies of No Quarter and the Confluence.  So a couple of months or so a few die-hard anti-Obama sites stopped linking to The Confluence, and the Confluence, in turn, cranked up their rhetoric even more, so if an Obama supporter wanders into their blogs they'll start screaming "RACIST", and then talk about it for weeks.

You're right.  There is no way the Republicans would have treated a former Republican first lady the way the Democrats treated Hillary.  The Republicans have at least some respect and class.  

With all due respect to your position, it seems like you believe that Hillary was entitled to the nomination. Is that what you mean by not showing loyalty?

After all, why in the world would voters need to feel obligated to one particular person within the party? The party itself is more important than any single individual and it deserves our loyalty. If voters preferred one person within the party over another I don't see how this is disloyal.

Anyways, I fail to see how the MSM, Party elites, and the blogosphere conspired to trash Hillary. The MSM gave it both ways and that's a fact. Reverend Wright was the dominant smear during the whole primary for any candidate. The blogosphere? There were plenty of blogs that trashed each candidate. Hillary was not alone. Been to No Quarter recently?

Anyways, when it comes down to it, individuals decided to vote for Obama under the system that has been in place for Democratic primaries. Individual voters are not automatons that vote based on how Donna Brazile tells us how. I realize that many Clinton supporters found/find Obama supporters to be automatons, but at that point I'd kindly ask you to remove your tinfoil hat.

Well, consider at least a vote for Nader or McKinney.  You don't even have to like them.  But at least you would register a progressive vote.

"I cannot vote for McCain, or any Republican.  But I can't ignore what occurred during the Dem primaries, where the MSM, Dem party elites, and the blogosphere, conspired to TRASH the most experienced, qualified, loyal Dem pres. candidate the party had to offer in order to support whatshisname."

ok I hate to break it to you but the MSM ,dem party elite and the blogosphere had nothing to do with HRC defeat and they did not conspire to trash her either so cut the 9-11 conspriracy theory crap.....

just think about this the only reason HRC lost was a FAILED caucus strategy and a failed campaign strategy

also think about this if the MSM and dem party elite are so powerful why could they not defeat BUSH according to the wingnuts the MSM is no fan of bush so they should have easily defeated bush right? just think about it  ask yourself what mistakes did HRC campaign made ?  

This is not a battle between Conservative and Liberal that we are fighting. This is a battle of Modernism versus Romanticism. Will we step forward into modernity, or will we voluntarily chain ourselves to the world of serfs and kings?

I choose to believe in the future -- that we can make things better through practical principles.

Others believe that their country has been soiled by commoners growing richer, that everything would be better wrapped in an allknowing and yet hysterical church of America. Would-Be-Priests and Would-Be-Kings are out there -- and They Are Strong.

Again, and again, our movement has risen -- even as they kept on removing our leaders. For we are not authoritarian -- a matter that I'm sure perplexed them.

If you would not live in a country where women wear burkhas (or whatever the Religious Whacks want them to wear today), we need your vote. We need a supermajority. We need every single measure to show that Obama has won in a landslide. And that means popular vote too.

I ask for your vote, on behalf of those religious girls whose virginity is even now being sold for profit and power.

I ask for your vote, on behalf of those who might truthfully say, "America never was America to me." For the people who believe in America's principles, and America's justice, even if they know they may never see them fairly applied to themselves.

Run up the margins, please. We will need those margins for our next message -- "The Right Wing Doesn't Win Elections."

We are winning the Democratic Party back from the corporatists and the apologizers. Next, we will win a Republican Party that can afford to look forward again.

But it will take your help.

I think your position is laughable, but I defend to the death your write to express it.  And I would give you mojo if I could -- I imagine you can still rate comments here, no?

In 2004 Barack Obama ran for U.S. Senate.

How did you vote in the Dem primary?

Did you vote for Keyes, Obama or other in the general election?

Did you have concerns about Obama before he ran against Hillary Rodham Clinton?

While I respect your feelings, and appreciate the fact that you won't vote for McCain and feel comfortable not voting for Obama because your vote wouldn't make a difference in IL where even the Chicago Tribune has turned into an Obamabot), I have difficulty understanding the rationale of your arguments.

Firstly, you don't intend to vote for Obama because of what the MSM, Dem elites and the blogosphere did to Clinton. Apparently you do not blame Obama for that, so  how is this a reason for not voting for him? Who would you be punishing by not voting for him?

Secondly, you consider that Hillary was trashed.
Didn't she say that if you couldn't stand the heat you'd better stay out of the kitchen?

Thirdly, you are indignant that the candidate you preferred was not nominated, when she was the most experienced, qualified, loyal... Of course you're entitled to think so, and I do recognize that she is highly experienced, qualified, and
outstandingly loyal; but apparently Obama (or if you prefer, Obama's campaign) raised greater enthusiasm and won the nomination contest. In my opinion, not accepting this output amonts to not accepting the democratic process. Just because one thinks a candidate is the better doesn't entitle one to deny the legitimacy of the other candidate who is selected by the democratic process (however imperfect it may be; indeed, the worst one - I forbear to proceed).

Lastly, I don't quite get what you mean by 'repubs don't do that to their own'.

So why not vote for McKinney or Nader or write in Hillary?  I really don't get the point of not voting.  

And you're right, Republicans were extremely respectful to McCain in 2000, and did not do horrific robocalls accusing him of having fathered black children out of wedlock in order to nominate a weak Governor who proved to be one of the worst chief executives in the history of our nation.

That definitely didn't happen.

I generally agree with you and with your statement that "the MSM, Dem party elites, and the blogosphere, conspired to TRASH the most experienced, qualified, loyal Dem pres. candidate the party had to offer".

But, I can't really hold any of this against Obama. He ran a good campaign and was a fair as can be expected in politics. While I live in a state where my vote won't matter either, I think he has earned and deserves my vote (and I hope to see a landslide erode the GOP base further).

It's ultimately your decision and your vote. But I encourage you to reconsider. When the election is over, I think you might feel good about having voted for Obama.

You've been pretty clear about this all along Chittown, and while I don't quite understand why a former President is the main source of your political agitation, I can't see how you would lose TU status by saying this.

You'll probably join Jerome and post on the front page!

Oh wait...

Seriously though. Honesty deserves some kudos. Even if I think you're wasting your vote

Elections aren't about loyalty. They're about winning. If you think winning doesn't matter, then take a look around. I'm not joking, seriously take a fucking look around. This isn't a game.

I'm sure you're a good person--but you need to grow up politically. The rest of us have.

They were with us before they were against us.

This is an insightful post.  The people who refuse to vote for Obama don't matter, because Obama was never counting on receiving the votes of people who refuse to vote for him.  He didn't plan on forming a coalition which included people who wouldn't support him.  Smart candidate, that Obama.

I don't think there really are any.  They're a figment of the GOP imagination foisted on overzealous Obama supporters.

Mojo it up, Steve.  And others' too.

Agreed.  karajan72 had (virtual) balls, and PUMAs who still support McCain are spite-blinded idiots.

primary process that turned out to be really long, expensive and messy.  On top of that, two jealous states tried to jockey for advantage and make it worse.

But can you explain the causality by which the DNC engineered an undeserved Obama victory?

UMMMM??? are you saying you don't support any of Obama's policies... you are just supporting his skin color ?

So you were supporting Hillary just because of her gender I take it?

but I'd rather see you vote for McCain rather than vote for Obama because he is black.  

Certainly, a woman's right to choose doesn't rate very highly in their priorities.  Or they are in complete denial about the danger thereto should McCain win.

How long did it take you to realize the pettiness?

I will admit I have a pronounced personal dislike for Hillary Clinton.  But her policies are fine and I don't see how even the nastiest comments from a Clinton could make me vote for McCain if she had won the nomination.

was a Hillary supporter from Day 1.  Actually, she had been hoping she would run since 2000.  Early in the primaries I talked to her about the various candidates and she didn't want to talk about their stances on various issues.  She said "Hillary's my girl" and that was that.

We both got busy and didn't talk again until late this summer.  I was worried she might have taken Hillary's loss badly so I said "Sorry your girl didn't win".  I was so surprised when she responded "Oh, I was really sad at first.  But since then the more I see of Obama, the better I like him.  Now I totally support him for President.  And Joe Biden is great too."

Nancy votes for whoever gets the Democratic nomination, as I always do.  We've both seen really great nominees and some not as great.  But they are Democrats with Democratic values and so are we (we're both in our 60's now).

"but it was still dominated by the Obama movement."

Not in the beginning it wasn't.  Maybe you forget (or didn't notice) that nearly every vocal Obama supporter had their rating privileges removed solely because they supported Obama?  If I recall correctly, most still don't have it.  Jerome very deliberately set this up as the Hillary place to be.  In his defense (sort of), DKos was ridiculously Obama-centric, which is one of the reasons I came here, even as a staunch Obama supporter.

You could have fooled me.  Every time I put up anything pro-Obama I was gang tackled.

Virtual mojo.

My guess is that some of them are voting for revenge, and the rest based upon what's in the candidate's pants

Well, that's something I noticed during the primary, when feelings were at their worst.  Clinton supporters were threatening to vote for McCain, while Obama supporters were threatening to vote for Nader.

--curious on this end!

Well, I've learned considerably from it.

I figured it would be, but it wasn't. It allowed many posters and lurkers like me to vent our feelings without a big fight breaking out. That is progress. Only a few comments made me mad and that means we've come a long way from our primary battle.

you took the words right out of my mouth.

I honestly believe that there's a chasm that separates the perception of what happened during the primaries by "your" people, and that perceived by the rest of us.

Denial works both ways. This chasm is not going to be magically bridged by stamping your feet, pouting, or holding forth on your perceived grievances as though they were gospel truth. Dialogue alone can accomplish this, together with perhaps being open to the possibility that one's perception doesn't always reflect reality.

Much effort has been out into soothing these alleged hurt feelings, to no avail. The only acceptable balm, it seems, is complete capitulation to a borderline fantasy opinion with little or no factual basis that can be agreed on. Until it's understood that you do none other than yourself a favor with your vote, there will be no common ground - and that's as close to reality as it gets.

"OUR GOAL IS TO HAVE HILLARY FOR PRESIDENT"

So, if a meteor killed Hillary, would you never vote for any president ever again for as long as you lived?

Ok look I got to say that voting for someone who will appoint SC justices that will continue to take away our America is not helpful to the country or any of our futures.  I get that Hillary  Clinton will probably never wind up being our president & the blatant misogyny and sexism demonstrated both mainstream and by our own supposedly progressive party is beyond horrific.

But I can't live through another 4 or 8 years of GOP garbage; it will be horrifying. And if you think it won't be you are living in another world.  I say this as someone who never truly cared for Obama & who has admired Hillary Clinton for many years.  I say this as someone who, yes is voting Obama, but I am doing so b/c it is the right thing to do when considering the alternative repercussions.  I can't live in a world with another GOP term - I can't live with this type of punishment anymore. How can you not have had enough???

Boy.  I hate to say this, but after reading that post, and now having visited the PUMA sites, I don't know that I could vote for Hillary if she wins the nomination in 4 years or 8 years.  Of course, the difference is that I would vote third party and not vote for someone who would appoint judges to deprive my daughter of the right to choose.

If she's ever going to earn my vote she's going to have to thoroughly repudiate the element which was ready to do just that.  Fortunately, there are enough Chris Buckley conservatives out there with enough sense to vote for the best interests of the country this time around, so the disgruntled Hillary vote won't really matter.  From what I understand it's pretty small now anyway.

But then again, if you voted for Ronald Reagan, a woman's choice was never on your front burner of concern.