[UPDATED!] "Obama is simply not being truthful"

So says health care-focused blogger Ezra Klein regarding Obama's repeated claim that his plan would cover everyone. You can assume that it's not something Klein does lightly, say that a good Democrat is lying. But it's hard to escape the conclusion that lying is exactly what Obama is doing.

Here's Klein, this morning:

Obama is simply not being truthful when he says his plan "covers everybody." It doesn't. It makes it easier for everybody to get coverage, but it simply does not cover every American. Every time he says otherwise, he's misleading the voters.

Why can Klein state so baldly that Obama is misleading voters? Because, as Edwards gently pointed out in the debate, only a mandate will produce universal coverage. This is a settled question among people who study health care policy for a living.

Experts estimate that Obama plan would leave 15 million people uninsured. In others words, his plan would cover only two-thirds of the uninsured. That's why I call it Obama's plan for univer health care.

Here's Jonathan Cohn, who literally wrote the book on health care policy (subs only):

There are some differences between what Obama and Edwards have proposed. And by far the biggest, most important one is the fact that Edwards has a "mandate" in his plan: He would require every single American to get insurance. That means his plan is truly "universal."...The best studies out there--by Urban Institute researchers, the RAND Corporation, and MIT economist Jonathan Gruber--suggest that, without a mandate, improving affordability will cover roughly one-third of the people who don't have coverage. Mandating that kids (but not adults) have coverage bumps that up to about a half. Obama's advisers think that, by really loading up on the subsidies--and making enrollment a lot easier by, for example, having an automatic enrollment with voluntary opt-out at your place of work--they can goose that up to two-thirds. But that's getting optimistic--and, even then, you still have around 15 million people who are uninsured.

All of this is not to say that Obama's plan is bad. On the contrary, as Edwards says, it's a "serious" proposal, and there's a case to be made against a mandate. Obama should make it. He should stop mispresenting his plan and argue why the burdens of a mandate outweigh the benefits of universal coverage.

But it might be too late; he seems to be stuck with a lie.

UPDATE: I just read through the comments to see if anyone made a convincing case that Obama is telling the truth. The answer is a loud no.

Some have made the rather post-modern point the "universal" is a term of art, which I don't think is the case, but even if it were, Obama does more than call his plan universal, he says flat-out that everyone will be covered. Others have said that Obama promises to cover everyone within a few years, gradually filling the holes as needed--an argument that makes my case for me. Most have tried to deflect the questions that this raises about Obama's character by making wild claims about Edwards's plan.

The criticism of JRE's mandate approach comes from both the left (heavy-handed, a sop to insurance companies) and from the right (financially reckless), but none of the criticism holds up. I'm going to quote at length from an article by one of the most respected healh care experts, Lem N. Nichols, but I suggest everyone read the entire thing. If you do, you will, I think, hestitate before dismissing the idea of a mandate. Nichols points out not only that a mandate is necessary for universal coverage; it also contains costs. Under Obama's approach, by contrast, insurance companies will still have an incentive to discriminate.

Mandates make markets work better. Yes, you read that correctly. Markets need help sometimes. Voluntary insurance markets are inherently unstable, because people with more expensive health risks think community rating (charging the same price to everyone) is a bargain for them, while "young immortals" -- low-risk folk, usually young and healthy, who don't expect to use much health care -- think community rates are a bad deal for them. Both groups are right. So either community rates rise continuously (as more good risks drop out as rates rise, over and over) or, more commonly, insurers persuade state legislatures to let them underwrite differential risks and price (or deny) coverage according to preexisting conditions, age, and other criteria. Talk about moral hazard, wherein a behavioral decision is affected by the presence or absence of insurance! The incentive for an individual insurer to err against covering someone with a costly condition is very large.

Mandates go a long way toward correcting this "adverse selection" problem by putting everyone in the same risk pool. If everyone is required to buy, then insurers worry far less about attracting a disproportionate share of sicker patients, because the reluctant "young immortals" are buying, too. So the excess resources they now devote to underwriting and targeted marketing will be largely redundant and disappear.This is why John Sheils of The Lewin Group concluded that Senator Wyden's plan achieves such great administrative savings -- insurers will voluntarily disarm if everyone has to buy, and then the rest of us can stop paying them to figure out how to legally deny coverage to the sick.

In turn, mandates make community rating, the fairest pricing system by far, actually sustainable, because enrollees will not be churning in and out of the market anymore. The lower administrative costs will make insurance more attractive to high-risk and low-risk alike. And mandates will bar them from saving a few bucks by voluntarily joining the ranks of the uninsured, as some "free riders" have been known to do from time to time.

These "free riders" are people who can afford health insurance but choose to spend their money in other ways and thereby gamble that public hospitals will treat them when disaster strikes -- which it does, with actuarial precision. They were the original targets of Romney, and while they are a minority of the uninsured, they do impose costs on the rest of us, even on those who can't afford health insurance but pay taxes to support the public hospitals. So mandates make free riders pay their fair share. In a society that is not willing to deny all care to all who are not insured, mandates are the only way to achieve fair participation from this population.

At the same time, the economics literature is abundantly clear that no pure subsidy program will entice a majority of the uninsured to sign up for health insurance; the price responsiveness of health insurance demand is just too low. Free riders are not going to buy willingly at any price, low income folk can't afford to pay much at all on their own, and high income individuals will buy at virtually any price.

Tags: Barack Obama, Health care, John Edwards, lie (all tags)

Comments

217 Comments

Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

So much for new politics.

He should not misrepresent the content of his plan.  Ezra is right.

by TomP 2007-07-25 01:25PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

So much for new politics.

That was an attack.  Remember that line when I return the favor.

As for universal, universal means that everyone can get it regardless of income, race or gender and under both plans that would be the case.  No discrimination based on pre-conditions.  A mandate does not make it universal, it just says the government says that you must somehow get insurance whether you can afford it or not.

Real universal insurance would be just showing your id when you walked into a hospital and providing you are a US citizen, you will be admitted, period.  You can spin all you want but nothing is universal unless there is no insurance at all.  If you cannot walk into a hospital with a driver's license or a state id then it is not universal.

by lovingj 2007-07-25 01:38PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

Are you threatening me? I remember you, lovingj, from Daily Kos, where you were banned.  I suggest you eschew such tactics here.

So, you will try to cover up the misleading statements by Obama by redefining "universal"?  I see: it all depends on what the meaning of universal is"  Where have I heard that before?

Ezra Klein is right.

by TomP 2007-07-25 01:44PM | 0 recs
Was lovingj really banned?

Didn't know that.

On David's point, he's been arguing this point for a while (Obama's plan isn't sufficiently "universal") and while it's an interesting technical point, it's hardly enough to call Obama a liar for not having an individual mandate in his plan.

As a simple example, San Francisco has recently passed a plan they call "universal health care"...without an individual mandate.  In fact, it's somewhat similar to Obama's plan (employer pay or play)...and they don't seem to have any problem calling it "universal" healthcare.

by rashomon 2007-07-25 02:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Was lovingj really banned?

Yes, although from what little I have seen here, he has toned it down a bit.

He apparently tried a few sock puppets, but was caught on Dkos.

Hey, this is a different site.  I guess he has been better.

by TomP 2007-07-25 02:07PM | 0 recs
Just quieter.

Our flamewars here are only 20 commente long, instead of 860.  =)

by rashomon 2007-07-25 02:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Just quieter.

No, he really had been a lot better. People can disagree viciously here just the same as Daily Kos, but lovingj hasn't gone that route in his MyDD incarnation. Not yet, anyway.

by clarkent 2007-07-25 02:21PM | 0 recs
Universal is not guaranteed

Neither plan is guaranteed healthcare--setting aside the question of universality.

As Sicko portrayed, the insurance corps. are expert at denying people care when they need it.  Both Mr. Obama and Mr. Edwards would likely cause these same insurers to have more patients...and more money that could be saved by denying care.

A note on SF's unique plan: It is universal because anyone can go to one of the city clinics.  And basic care is guaranteed as well.

by California Nurses Shum 2007-07-25 02:11PM | 0 recs
For the record

I'm unsure about whether I wish Edwards had gotten behind a Medicare-for-all type program. On the one hand, I think that's what we need; on the other hand, his plan could evolve into single-payer, and I feel that corporations and Republicans would probably kill a a flat-out single payer plan.

So on this issue and many issues, Edwards has, in my opinion, the most progressive politically viable position.

by david mizner 2007-07-25 02:18PM | 0 recs
Re: For the record

And just what the hell is "progressive" about forcing people to fork over money to an insurance company??

by skeptica 2007-07-25 04:00PM | 0 recs
Re: For the record

He should have went single payer.  If we as a country can give away manufacturing and agriculture, we sure as hell can eliminate health care from the insurance industry.  What makes them so special?

by dkmich 2007-07-26 12:58AM | 0 recs
Re: For the record

I think that ultimately, Single Payer is the best, fairest, most economical form of health care. The question is; how do you get to it? And, how do you accomodate people who currently have coverage, through negotiated contracts and otherwise? What the Edward's plan provides are mechanisms for immediate Universay coverage while providing transistional options for those already covered.

Unions support Single Payer, because they know that private coverage places an unfair burden on the employers they negotiate with and cripples their ability to negotiate better wages and benefits for their members.  With Edward's plan, unions have options to negotiate viable transistions out of the work-based coverage, and into the expanded "Medicare for All", forms of coverage for their members.

John Foster
GCC/IBT Local 4C

by jfoster 2007-07-26 07:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Universal is not guaranteed

It is universal because anyone can go to one of the city clinics.  And basic care is guaranteed as well.

Agreed, but that simply reinforces my point, because you've described universally available care.  An individual mandate is what David's talking about, which forces people who don't have health insurance to sign up.  There's nothing like that in SF, but they're calling it "universal" anyway.

by rashomon 2007-07-25 02:21PM | 0 recs
As I said below

Obama does more than say it's universal, he says everyone will be covered. The former, you could argue, is semantics, the latter is simply not true.

by david mizner 2007-07-25 02:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Universal is not guaranteed

To be Universal it has to cover all Americans. The more people that are covered the lower the cost to call Americans.  Just call it Medicare for all Americans.  The Republicans talk about our taxes going up to pay for Healthcare.  How much is Health Insurance if you buy it as an individual?  If you pay for it in higher taxes (which may not even be necessary) you will not have to pay Insurance Companies.

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Universal is not guaranteed

Such abuses by the insurers could be investigated and exposed by President Edward's AG and the democratic congress (we're extremely unlikely to lose both houses and I'd predict gains in both currently) and it would serve to push people towards the better, fairer government plan thus accelerating the built-in rate of conversion to a single-payer plan.

by Quinton 2007-07-25 10:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Universal is not guaranteed
It's doubtful the Insurance industry could be abolished overnight without a shock to our economy - regardless of their huge donations to Congress critters.
Edwards' plan mandates coverage for all - but doesn't mandate HOW we receive coverage. Employees can choose to stay with their employers' healthcare plan via private companies, etc.
At least that's my understanding.
by annefrank 2007-07-26 10:33AM | 0 recs
Such tactics?

If I recall correctly wasn't the mantra on Daily Kos to write a diary for your candidate instead of against another?

Are you threatening me?

You sound like a kid.  The point was do not go up in arms if I decide to write a critical analysis about John Edwards candidacy or take on some of the issues.

I wrote several diaries in the past on Daily Kos regarding JRE's decision making on the war that was deemed as attacks and was told by many to spend my time writing diaries in favor of my candidate.  How quick do we get amnesia.

And lets get this out in the open: I was banned at Daily Kos because I wrote diaries critical of JRE like David Mizner is doing about Obama and writing comments similar to yours about Obama.

So much for new politics.

As a result, pioneer111 announced on the board, "I believe its time for autoban" and then everyone who supported Edwards went into groupthink mode (i.e. generally speaking, I know not every Edwards' supporter) and started slapping every comment I posted, warranted or not, with troll ratings.  I have never been a right wing hack or paid informant for the Obama campaign (i.e. pioneer111 accused me of that once I got autobanned . . . I still read the boards).

I am a middle class worker from Michigan who supports Obama the same way you support Edwards.  And I guarantee comments such as "panderer" or "political windsurfer" being used in comments about JRE would be viewed by those who support Edwards just as badly as I view your comment:

So much for new politics.

by lovingj 2007-07-26 03:03AM | 0 recs
Re: Such tactics?

lovingj, you've gotten a million times better since you've been posting at MyDD, but it takes a real piece of work to be autobanned at Daily Kos. It wasn't a gang of Edwards supporters that got you booted out; even your fellow Obama supporters were trollrating you and criticizing the substance and tone of your diaries.

by clarkent 2007-07-26 04:24AM | 0 recs
True Kent.

As such I am not a fan of those kind of diaries but in that spirit why is comments such as

So much for new politics.

Condoned or even the title of this diary?  Or even the fact that this diary, clearly written by an Edwards supporter, would be put up instead of a diary for his candidate?

Look I have no intentions of returning to the flame wars of Daily Kos but you can at least agree that Edwards and Obama supporters got along much better here until certain flame elements started coming from Daily Kos to here.

For example, you and Chaolisith (I think that is how you spell his name) have wrote pro Edwards diaries.  Chaolisith has even been critical of Obama, however, they never resort to mockery like this

So much for new politics.

I think this kind of flame starter post should be condemned as much as my past actions at Daily Kos.

Finally, I stand by my statement that it was a coordinated troll rating by Edwards supporters while I recieve some criticism from very light leaning Obama supporters none the less the charge was led by pioneer111 and those who shared her views.

by lovingj 2007-07-26 05:08AM | 0 recs
You are quite

silly.  You earned banning at daily kos and then came back as a sock puppet.  Grow up.

You now are lying.  No one coordinated a damn thing about you.  Take it up with Markos.

As for your personal attacks and LIES about pioneer111, I call you on it here and now.  

You are lying.  Stop it.  You are smearing posters here.  Stop it.

If you continue spreading lies about posters, I will troll rate you.

by TomP 2007-07-26 06:07AM | 0 recs
Oh yeah?

Well I stand corrected about pioneer111 initiating the attack because it was a member named polecat that you rec'd:

It's time for the auto ban. (8+ / 0-)
Recommended by:Trix, eugene, MadEye, hedgey, trashablanca, testvet6778, TomP, floridadude
I've had enough.

Happy little moron, Lucky little man. I wish I was a moron, My God! Perhaps I am! -Spike Milligan

by polecat on Sat Apr 21, 2007 at 01:26:01 PM EDT

Then pioneer111 made the accusation:

There was a suggestion near the end of the comments that lovingj is being paid with a link that could be interpreted that way.

It might make sense.  Don't know.  But I would like to be assured it is not so.

A paid informant?  For supporting someone other than Edwards?  Thats ridiculous.

At any rate, I am not looking for a reincarnation of the old flame wars and I think you should stick to talking about your candidate.

by lovingj 2007-07-26 06:34AM | 0 recs
You are continuing

to attack people. I recommeded the comment becuase you were earning an autoban by your actions.

You are bringing up your bad acts from Daily Kos here.

Again, stop attacking posters on MyDD. No one coordinated any autoban. YOU EARNED IT BY ACTING LIKE A 12 YEAR OLD AND INSULTING PEOPLE.

Half of the people who recommedned that comment you quote DO NOT SUPPORT JOHN EDWARDS.  

Take it up with Markos.  Do not accuse posters here or I will troll rate you.  That is your second warning.

by TomP 2007-07-26 07:30AM | 0 recs
Re: lovingj and pioneer

Lovingj, one thing I pride myself on is that if I have an issue with someone, I am direct.  If you go back to that diary I asked you directly.  And even in the quote above I state why I thought that was a possibility, but I wasn't sure.  Please note in your quote that it was a suggestion made by someone else.

I had wondered why you hadn't replied to my question which I asked directly.  Truth is I don't quite remember the details  I don't have time right now to go search but I will.  I had no idea you were banned until there was a meta diary citing that you were banned more than once.  I missed the whole thing.  

I never have handed out very many TR and don't start flame wars.  I do respond to facts or comments.  And I don't readily get intimidated.  As to comments you have often been dismissive and really focused on "smackdowns".  Those did not nor do endear you to anyone.  I have not ever participated in trying to get anyone banned or auto-banned.  In fact I have defended some odd characters preferring people ignore annoying behavior.  

I have no connection to polecat.  I will say I did find you aggravating, but not any more than some others, and obviously the feeling was reciprocated.  All I was trying at the time was to clear up that question.  I wasn't sure if that was true.  I wouldn't have asked it so openly if I had nefarious plans.  I suggest that you review the facts more carefully.  I have been puzzled why you seem to have such intense animosity towards me.   I can understand now if you think I had anything to do with the autobann.  I did not.

MyDD is not your personal site and I have as much right to post and debate here as anyone else.  I do like the pace and the depth of some debates better at times.  And so I will debate and challenge points including yours.  I will be gone for the next two weeks on a trip.  So don't assume I have abandoned the site.  ;-)  

I think you need to reconsider your assumptions.  The chances are that we will disagree on perspectives.  I am a strong supporter of Edwards and you of Obama.  That doesn't preclude being respectful, but I have come to resent the constant personal attacks you have been making.  I now believe it is based on erroneous conclusions.  Perhaps we can call for peace?  

by pioneer111 2007-07-26 08:30AM | 0 recs
Consider it done.

I just reviewed the comments in light of the discussion with Tomp and that is when I learned that it was a different person.  I suppose the fact that he (polecat) also began with a p might have something to do with it.  Regardless, I was mistaken and apologize for attacking you unnecessarily.

by lovingj 2007-07-26 08:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Consider it done.

Thank you for the reply.  Now, on with the debate.  My guy is better than your guy.  ;-)

by pioneer111 2007-07-26 12:39PM | 0 recs
lol.

by lovingj 2007-07-26 01:16PM | 0 recs
So much for new politics!

His new politics is phony bs.  He misleads, that is, he lies that his healthcare plan is universal.  Ezra has it right.   Barack Obama lies about his healthcare plan.  

by TomP 2007-07-26 06:14AM | 0 recs
Look you are totally out of line.

Fine you believe in your candidate and I respect that but this trash you keep spewing about Obama is unnecessary.

by lovingj 2007-07-26 06:35AM | 0 recs
Look, I respect that

you support Barack Obama, but when others do not, it does not make what they say, "trash."

Ezra said it nicely and 30% agree in this poll. Use whatever words you want.  Obama will not take on power to fight for a universal health care plan, but he wants credit for it.  He is misleading people when he claims that his plan is "universal."  It is not universal.    

by TomP 2007-07-26 07:27AM | 0 recs
Okay.

I believe your case is fair although I believe it to be inaccurate.  Unfortunately I do not have the time to make the case right now because I am working on this Hillary says Obama is "naive" thing.  But if this dispute is still going on when I finish, then I will address it.  However, I still do not find words like this helpful:

His new politics is phony bs.

If you want to be critical of Obama fine, I have no qualms with that.  However when you resort mockery and name calling then that lowers the level of discourse.  I know you want bring up my past actions and again I willfully acknowledge that my choice of words and arguments did not help elevate the political discourse but I do not believe this current trend of flame baiting helps either.

by lovingj 2007-07-26 07:34AM | 0 recs
I have no problem discussing

issues with you, but your false charges against posters on MyDD are improper. Please stop.

by TomP 2007-07-26 07:36AM | 0 recs
Re: True Kent.

Do you want me to start quoting both your comments and who trollrated them vs. who recommended them? I don't really want to embarass you that way. Neither do I really want to bring garbage over from Daily Kos when it's better left in the past.

As for the diarist - he makes a pretty straightforward factual charge. He has cited health care experts who agree that some sort of mandate is necessary to have universal coverage. Obama says that his plan provides universal coverage. You have two options: prove that Obama didn't really say that his plan was universal, or prove that it is indeed universal. Otherwise, he's misleading.

by clarkent 2007-07-26 07:12AM | 0 recs
Embarrassed?

Show me one comment that was not on the same level as the following.

His new politics is phony bs.  He misleads, that is, he lies that his healthcare plan is universal.  Ezra has it right.   Barack Obama lies about his healthcare plan.

It is an attack, something which I do not plan to engage in, however, I suspect that none of you are playing by the same rules.

I'm done so be it.

by lovingj 2007-07-26 07:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Embarrassed?

You said plenty of things that were A LOT worse, things that were related to the haircut, Elizabeth's cancer, Ann Coulter, etc.

BTW, who wrote the above comment?

by clarkent 2007-07-26 09:21AM | 0 recs
Tomp wrote it.

And that is actually a matter of opinion since those are obviously references to Edwards and you give greater weight to those kinds of remarks than to those given to Obama.

Personally, I think it is double standard to say its okay to attack Obama as a light weight or to mock his platform with a "new kind of politics" and then say it is not okay to mock John Edwards for a campaign mistake (i.e. haircut) or to say he was dishonest about his Iraq vote.  Frankly you are questioning Obama's authenticity as much as I chose to question Edwards' in the past at Daily Kos.

I have no desire to flame forever with you but there is definitely a double standard you are setting with your posts.

by lovingj 2007-07-26 09:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Tomp wrote it.

lovingj, that's a load of crap. Go look yourself up on Daily Kos and take a look at what you wrote over there.

by clarkent 2007-07-26 03:49PM | 0 recs
New politics?

I'm going to go into this some weekend on Ezra's blog, but I have absolutely no idea what "New politics" is supposed to amount to in Obama's case.  If he came up with a bunch of ambitious political reform measures -- Maine-style public financing of campaigns, for example -- there'd be some substance to the whole 'new politics' story.  But he hasn't.  

What makes me more comfortable with Obama than with Clinton is that while I regard all our current Democratic leaders as 'old politics' types, Obama will run a more progressive form of old politics than Clinton.  Though not as progressive as Edwards, and you can see it in the health care plan.  

by Neil the Ethical Werewolf 2007-07-25 01:46PM | 0 recs
Re: New politics?

What is Maine's public financing of campaigns like?  Obama has cosponsored legislation on the issue, possibly co-authored (I don't remember off hand) the one by Dick Durbin.  He's been an advocate for it and I think he took something to the state government in Illinois (I think he got Illinois Supreme court races publically financed)

by JeremiahTheMessiah 2007-07-25 01:48PM | 0 recs
Re: New politics?
Obama's political reform measures are amazing. Have you ever looked at them? Here's the pdf. It's certainly the most ambitious set of ethics proposals we've seen so far.
by psericks 2007-07-25 01:59PM | 0 recs
Re: New politics?

Looked at pdf.  It clearly defines the abuses.  Some areas have a remedy, some do not.  He needs to further....

by dkmich 2007-07-26 01:02AM | 0 recs
you mean, like this?

Fair Elections Now Act.  Obama, Feingold, Durbin and Specter are the only Senators on board so far.

by Adam B 2007-07-25 02:02PM | 0 recs
Re: New politics?

I too have trouble knowing what "new politics" means. Obama strikes me an intelligent, unusually eloquent conventional pol who is advocating a rather conventional set of moderately progressive policies.

by david mizner 2007-07-25 02:29PM | 0 recs
Re: New politics?

Where is Obama getting all his money?  Why is it he is so vague on issues?  He has been a Senator for 2 years and yet Wallstreet is bankrolling him.  These people don't throw their money away.  What is the quid pro quo?

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:08PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

universal means that everyone can get it regardless of income, race or gender and under both plans that would be the case

That is taking "make health care more affordable" and "improve access to health care" as far as they can be taken without actually going all the way to Universal Health Care.

To have Universal Health Care, you can either have government provided health care for all Americans, government provided health care coverage for all Americans, or a mandate on all Americans to obtain health care coverage.

The third of those requires making access available universal accessibility, but cannot be replaced by universal accessibility.

by BruceMcF 2007-07-25 01:49PM | 0 recs
That's your argument?

loving j

That universal means non-discriminatory

Try harder.

by david mizner 2007-07-25 02:08PM | 0 recs
Re: That's your argument?

Sound like this diaryst is hating very hard at Obama.

by JaeHood 2007-07-25 02:34PM | 0 recs
Re: That's your argument?

This comment should be framed and hung on the wall.

by clarkent 2007-07-25 02:41PM | 0 recs
Re: That's your argument?

who cares what you think?..You just a partisan and nothing else.

by JaeHood 2007-07-25 03:02PM | 0 recs
Facts equal hate?

What happened to a reality based community?

Ezra called out Obama for misleading voters.  That's not hate.  It's called legitimate criticism when true.

by TomP 2007-07-25 03:01PM | 0 recs
Edwards is just desperate

to get attention, that he'll try to turn anything into an issue. Notice how Edwards and Clinton can only attack Obama on non-issues?

If Edwards and his supporters want to take this angle, let them. It will never get any traction.

by potus2020 2007-07-25 04:35PM | 0 recs
Edwards answered a question

and merely stated a fact, Obama's plan is not universal.

COOPER: Senator Edwards, does Senator Obama provide universal coverage?

EDWARDS: No, because the only way to provide universal coverage is to mandate that everyone be covered.

But I want to say, you know, I came out with a universal plan several months ago. A couple of months later, Senator Obama came out with a plan. He's made a very serious proposal, and I'm not casting aspersions on his plan. I think it's a very serious proposal. It just doesn't cover everybody. The only way to cover everybody is to mandate it.

Whether a health care plan will leave at least 15 million people without coverage is not a "non-issue" - especially to the individuals who will make up that 15 million.

by edgery 2007-07-25 06:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards is just desperate

Obama's health care plan is a non-issue?

by Junior Bug 2007-07-25 07:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards is just desperate

What is Obama's issue?  Except for telling us he wants a new kind of politics--what does he stand for?

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:10PM | 0 recs
Sincere question.

TomP, how exactly does a so-called "mandate" actually guarantee universal coverage.  People can still choose not to cooperate by buying a plan.  There are probably tens of thousands of people who choose not to purchase "mandated" auto liability insurance.

Is it enforced? How? By confiscating wages or public assistance income?  Jail?  A fine?

------
This is not meant as a criticism of John or his very excellent supporters.  But it seems to me that if it's an unresolved issue, then the criticism of Obama is pretty unfair.

by chicago jeff 2007-07-25 06:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Sincere question.

Just as everyone must have car insurance, Universal Coverage means that everyone will need to have health insurance.  If they choose they call also buy private insurance but they will be mandated to be part of the Govt plan.  If you move to Canada you are required to register for healthcare within 3 months of your arrival.

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:14PM | 0 recs
So if Bush

passed a law that said  "here's a tax credit, everyone must buy insurance" we would have "universal healthcare"?

by chicago jeff 2007-07-26 09:01AM | 0 recs
UPPER LEFT ????

upper left why did you troll rate this comment yet you have not made one comment on this thread of your own??  198 comments on this thread and you haven't made one yet you troll rate!

Do you think that is the fair thing to to?

Do you think that is what troll rating is meant for?

by dk2 2007-07-26 07:54AM | 0 recs
Amazing that

a few Obama supporters are voting in the poll that it is truly universal.  In June, Obama admitted in the debate it was not.  Verifiable reality is secondary to faith here, I think.

by TomP 2007-07-25 01:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Amazing that

Which debate was this?  I think I've caught all the debates so far, and I don't remember that.  It'd be helpful if you could point to a relevant part of a transcript, but I'll look around for it if you'll tell me the date of the debate you're referring to.  

by Gauss Bonnet 2007-07-25 03:29PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

Under both Obama's and Edwards's plans if you cant afford health insurance, you won't have it.  Edwards goes about the issue by saying having insurance is mandatory and thus universal, Obama says that if he succeeds in making it affordable it will be universal.  

Even if it is mandatory doesn't meant it will be affordable, and doesn't mean it will be universal.  It'd rather time and money be spent on making it affordable than mandatory.

by enarjay 2007-07-25 01:27PM | 0 recs
Not really the point

Edwards's plan contains just as many cost-cutting measures as Obama, plus Edwards plans to allocate 90-120 bill, as opposed to 50-60 for Obama. The issue at hand is whether you can universal coverage without a mandate. The answer as best as I can tell from the experts, is no--do you have evidence to the contrary?

by david mizner 2007-07-25 01:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Not really the point

Can you get universal coverage with a mandate?

The only true universal plan I know of is Kucinich's.

by enarjay 2007-07-25 01:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Not really the point

Kucinich has lots of truly ambitious ideas. That is the luxury you have when you aren't in the race to win but just to make noise and further the dialogue.

Candidates like him serve an important function in regards to the debate, but lets not pretend for a second the ideas they campaign on are actually achievable at this juncture. He gets to campaign on things like this BECAUSE he can't win.

by JDF 2007-07-25 01:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Not really the point

Oh I completely understand.  I think both Edward's and Obama's plans would be a good step foreword towards a long term goal of a single payer type system.  

by enarjay 2007-07-25 01:39PM | 0 recs
I don't know about where you live

You say it's not universal because some may not chose to comply.

You compare to auto insurance - and imply nothing is done about it.

Where I live - if you don't have insurance and have an accident or get a speeding ticket you get a heft fine.

Because crime is high here they also will do road block check and you get a ticket then.

by dk2 2007-07-26 07:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Not really the point

I believe Kucinich's plan has a mandate, too.

by clarkent 2007-07-25 01:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Not really the point

I think the point is that Kucinich's plan has an enforceable mandate, and it's not clear that this is true of Edwards' plan.  A single payer plan is guaranteed to be universal because every resident is automatically enrolled in it, and it is literally impossible to opt out.  Edwards proposes a mandate, but I'm not sure what his mechanism for enforcing it is.  This has been said before, but even though California mandates that its residents have auto insurance, 25% of Californians remain uninsured.  If even 5% of Americans manage to evade Edwards' mandate then he will also leave 15 million Americans uninsured, and his plan will be no more thoroughly universal than Obama's.  

That being said, I think both plans are excellent starts.  They both intend to make insurance affordable to everyone.  They are both aiming for universality, and if they don't attain it this will be because a small percentage of people are slipping through the cracks, and not because the system itself has enormous gaps.  Obama has said -- and I'm sure this is true of Edwards as well -- that if he implements his plan and finds that some people are still going without insurance then he will continue to tweak the plan to make sure it serves everyone.  For this reason I think it's fair to call both plans universal, even though they don't come with the same guarantee as a single payer system.  

by Gauss Bonnet 2007-07-25 03:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Not really the point

Sorry -- California mandates auto insurance for all its drivers (i.e., everyone with a California drivers' license), not all its residents; and 25% of California drivers are uninsured.  My point still stands, though.  

by Gauss Bonnet 2007-07-25 04:12PM | 0 recs
Why was this comment rated a 1?

Do not come over with this Daily Kos stuff.  The guy just expressed his viewpoint and sirius rated him a one.

by lovingj 2007-07-25 01:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Why was this comment rated a 1?

I didn't mean the comment to troll, only to continue discussion.  

Both plans are good steps towards universal health care, but neither will be truly universal -  mandate or no mandate, some will miss out on it.

by enarjay 2007-07-25 01:42PM | 0 recs
It was not troll worthy period.

It was your view point and I happen to agree with it.  It absolutely awful that your comment would be troll rated and you said nothing wrong.  You just disagreed.  It was one of the things I hated about Daily Kos.  They would start throwing out donuts whenever someone disagreed and the same crew that kept that group think mentality going over there has now come over and brought that style of thinking here.  It is a disgrace.  I have troll rating status but I rarely use it.   Even on Edwards supporters I disagree with or who point things about my candidate they dislike.

by lovingj 2007-07-25 01:48PM | 0 recs
Re: It was not troll worthy period.

Looks like Sirius is too afraid to comment too.

by enarjay 2007-07-25 01:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Not really the point

You don't understand the point.  Kucinich's is a single payer plan.  Yes it it universal because it also mandates all people being covered.  You still have to pay for it through taxes if not premiums.  Kucinich's plan hasn't a hope of being passed at this time.

Edwards plan combines private coverage and government run coverage insurance.  There would be more rules for the private insurance - like no pre-conditions denial.  The government insurance option would cover everyone who does not opt for private insurance.  The key is the mandate.  That makes it universal.  There is alot written on why that is important.

Obama's plan is better than what we have, but it is mainly about incentives to make private insurance more affordable.  It is in between Edward's plan and what we have now.  The problem is that even the insurance we have often doesn't work for people.  You need both a mandated plan and a way to go to single payer - the Edwards plan.

by pioneer111 2007-07-25 01:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Not really the point

I'm not really advocating the Kucinch plan, only using it as a point of contrast.  

As to the Edwards plan versus the Obama plan, I don't see much other difference except the mandate concept.  I think the more important question is which one is more likely to become adapted and how is more likely to get the support necessary to pass a health care plan.  

by enarjay 2007-07-25 01:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Not really the point

Obama's plan gives reform to trial lawyers that sue doctors to cut down on doctor's insurance skyrocketing costs.  The reform creates more anti-trust laws.  Something Edwards plan ignores.  

by JeremiahTheMessiah 2007-07-25 02:04PM | 0 recs
Point of correction

Malpractice premiums have been skyrocketing even in states with a cap on damages. It's really not related to trial lawyers.

by clarkent 2007-07-25 02:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Point of correction

Mapractice reform*  Thank you.  That's what I was trying to find.  

Malpractice reform in Obama's plan (not included in Edwards)

by JeremiahTheMessiah 2007-07-25 02:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Point of correction

Well, you had me all ready to go berserk on Obama, but when I actually looked up that section of his plan, he had some sensible ideas about cutting down on actual incidents of malpractice. Good stuff. Edwards has similar points in his plan but refers to it as patient safety.

by clarkent 2007-07-25 02:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Point of correction

Malpractice premiums are just plain old skyrocketing.  Does it have anything to do with actual payouts on judgments?  Nope.  Just higher insurance co profits.  Clearly, compromising with these kind of people is not going to happen.  There are some lines that need to be drawn.  This is definitely one of them.

by Peter from WI 2007-07-25 03:11PM | 0 recs
One point...

Obama's plan does have a public option which provides a potential path to single-payer, but it wasn't as emphasized as Edwards during the rollout.

by rashomon 2007-07-25 02:06PM | 0 recs
Re: One point...

The public option isn't available to everyone, though.

by clarkent 2007-07-25 02:32PM | 0 recs
Re: One point...

Obama's, I mean.

by clarkent 2007-07-25 02:33PM | 0 recs
I'm unclear

on whether Obama's, like Edwards's, could lead to a single-payer system. My understaned at the outset was that it could not, but I've heard conflicting reports. Someone help me out?

by david mizner 2007-07-25 02:42PM | 0 recs
In the same sense as you can have ...

... universal health care from a government program, yes, of course you can have universal health care from a mandate.

If we can provide a program that everyone can afford for $65b or less ... but which not everyone will enroll in ... we certainly can provide a program that enrolls everyone for $90b-$120b.

by BruceMcF 2007-07-25 01:53PM | 0 recs
Question.

How does a so-called "mandate" guarantee universal healthcare?

If people choose not to comply, isn't that essentially the same as mandate-less plan, like Obama's?

by chicago jeff 2007-07-25 06:51PM | 0 recs
You may need to read up on

Edwards plan.

"More than any of the presidential candidates, John Edwards has come up with a specific and plausible plan that provides for health care coverage for all Americans."

Nicholas Kristof
The New York Times

Under the Edwards Plan:

Families without insurance will get coverage at an affordable price.

Families with insurance will pay less and get more security and choices.

Businesses and other employers will find it cheaper and easier to insure their workers.

The Edwards Plan achieves universal coverage by:

Requiring businesses and other employers to either cover their employees or help finance their health insurance.

Making insurance affordable by creating new tax credits, expanding Medicaid and SCHIP, reforming insurance laws, and taking innovative steps to contain health care costs.

Creating regional "Health Care Markets" to let every American share the bargaining power to purchase an affordable, high-quality health plan, increase choices among insurance plans, and cut costs for businesses offering insurance.

Once these steps have been taken, requiring all American residents to get insurance.

Securing universal healthcare for every American will require the active involvement of millions of Americans.

"So this is a smart, serious proposal. It addresses both the problem of the uninsured and the waste and inefficiency of our fragmented insurance system. And every candidate should be pressed to come up with something comparable."

Paul Krugman
The New York Times

http://www.johnedwards.com/issues/health -care/index.html

by TomP 2007-07-25 01:32PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

Edwards includes subsidies on a sliding scale on incomes up to $100,000. Affordability won't be an issue.

by clarkent 2007-07-25 01:35PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

Completely untrue to say of Edwards plan that if you can't afford health insurance, you won't have it. His plan provides subsidies to make it more affordable based on income scales and provides it for free to those who can't afford it on their own. Simply put, if you really can't afford it, it'll be given to you. Can't get much more affordable than free.

by Quinton 2007-07-25 10:36PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

As usual Hillary is the pragmatic one.  Nothing is going to happen in this country with regard to healthcare without Employers, Unions, Doctors, Insurance Companies, and Drug Companies getting together and deciding the best way to get all Americans covered.  This is what she wants to do.  If you don't get all these parties on board you can forget it ever happening.

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:18PM | 0 recs
Sorry

this might be a repost...

I notice that so fsrf five people have said Obama is telling the truth. Can one of you provide evidence that Obama's plan will cover everyone--or at least get close enough, so that the term universal is legit?

by david mizner 2007-07-25 01:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry

sure,

Obama's take is that if he can succeed in making health insurance affordable for everyone then everyone can have access to it.

Making it mandatory doesn't ensure it's universal. Take car insurance, it's mandatory but many don't have it because they cant afford it.

by enarjay 2007-07-25 01:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry

Edwards would launch a sweeping comprehensive effort to get everyone signed up--there's never been an effort like that to get everyone car insurance. The analogy doesn't work, but I understand that the line that Obama supporters are using.

by david mizner 2007-07-25 01:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry

I see your point.  Sorta of like a voter registration drive.  

I also see the effect of calling it mandatory would entice more people to sign up.

Although even with a good effort to get everyone signed up, there are bound to be people missed. Close to universal, but not completely.

by enarjay 2007-07-25 01:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry

Edwards WOULD LIKE to launch a sweeping effort to get everyone signed up. Part of the reason I like Obama's plan is because, despite the use of the term Universal Healthcare, I find that he is being honest about what is achievable at this time.

The last thing a democratic presidency would need is to overshoot such an important issue and fall on their face (the way HRC did in the 90's.) Because of the way that disaster show ended nothing has changed for the good in regards to healthcare since that time.  

by JDF 2007-07-25 01:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry

So now you know more than the people who get paid to study it? Do you think Edwards invented the idea of a mandate--people in the know say it'll work.

by david mizner 2007-07-25 01:43PM | 0 recs
We'll find out soon if it will work.

They're trying it in Massachusetts, with an individual mandate backed up by a tax penalty.  Amusingly enough, that's the plan Mitt Romney signed into law.

by rashomon 2007-07-25 02:26PM | 0 recs
Re: We'll find out soon if it will work.

I'm in Massachusetts. Hardly anyone here thinks the Massachusetts plan can work, because this state is broke. It was a huge industrial state.

by blues 2007-07-25 03:42PM | 0 recs
here's how

Edwards would do it:

To make sure everyone is enrolled, insurance would be checked at schools, hospitals, clinics, doctor's offices, and through the tax system. If necessary, premiums would be collected through the tax system and everyone would be enrolled in a default plan.

Seems doable, no? Just costly.

http://www.slate.com/id/2169764/

by david mizner 2007-07-25 01:49PM | 0 recs
Re: here's how

Exactly.  You're just throwing money at the problem now.  Instead of waiting to see why there are gaps in people having health insurance, to find a way to effectively give them health care, Edwards is going to take the cost ineffective way.  

by JeremiahTheMessiah 2007-07-25 01:53PM | 0 recs
What you're

doing now is what Obama should do, defend his plan, criticize Edwards's.

What he should not do is claim his plan would cover everyone.

by david mizner 2007-07-25 02:01PM | 0 recs
Re: here's how

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see this. I just don't see it passing, at least not from where we are now. Is there any sense of how much this would actually cost and is there a reasonable plan for how it would be paid for?

by JDF 2007-07-25 01:54PM | 0 recs
Re: here's how

And fascist--UNLESS IT IS A PUBLIC plan that you are forced to pay into. How is this mandate different from a huge tax increase on lower to middle income people THAT IS PAID TO PRIVATE CORPORATIONS? DOES Edwards guarantee that you can buy a very cheap and very comprehensive PUBLIC, NONPROFIT plan to fulfill the mandate? If so, I withdraw my objection. If not, I think it stinks.

by skeptica 2007-07-25 04:07PM | 0 recs
Re: here's how

Well, there is indeed a public option, which everyone can buy into. And premiums are subsidized on a sliding scale up to $100,000 of income, so affordability won't be an issue for the poor or middle class.

by clarkent 2007-07-25 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry

From Mike Lux's insider account:

Message

There were two messages that had the potential to carry the day, one of which we used early and then was mostly dropped. The other one we finally agreed to use only after it was too late. Our decisions about message were in part reflective of the dissension and indecisiveness within the Administration, but were far more a reflection of the inherent contradictions any politician or constituency faces when pushing for major progressive reform in the United States.

The first message that we might have used but backed away from early in the process was a tough populist message going after the insurance industry and the big for-profit hospital chains. In the 1992 campaign, Clinton's rhetoric about health care had a decidedly anti-insurance and populist ring to it. It was a message which excited our activist base and had a deep resonance within the American public, especially blue collar swing voters. It also went after industries that we knew were going to oppose us anyway.

Relatively early in the fight, before we had decided clearly on a message strategy, we made a couple of major forays into populist waters. And in each case, it was almost by accident. The most famous of these incidents came one morning when Mrs. Clinton, getting ready for a speech, saw one of the "Harry and Louise" ads on TV. It made her so mad that she went after the commercial in her speech that morning. The media, loving conflict, ate it up, and those ads quickly became the most famous ads of the entire health care debate.

The other populist speech that Mrs. Clinton gave that got a lot of attention was a fiery speech to a convention of the Service Employees International Union, the country's biggest health care union. Again, it was almost by accident. I was the lead staffer with her at the event, both going with her to the event and writing a briefing paper, including talking points, for the event. I had assumed in writing the talking points, which I had made very populist and fiery because I knew the labor crowd would love it, that one of our communications people would look at the talking points and make whatever revisions they saw fit to give the right message for the day. That somehow didn't happen, and Mrs. Clinton--who has a wonderful populist streak in her--looked at the talking points and decided to let them rip.

In both cases, we got the same reaction: excitement and applause from the Democratic base groups, and an extremely negative, fearful reaction from providers and business groups. In spite of the advantages, in the end we avoided a populist, anti-insurance and for-profit hospital route because it scared off those other business and provider groups in the middle we were desperately trying to win over. In retrospect, if we would have decided to take the hit with these groups in the middle, and go for that message consistently, it might have had enough punch to carry the day.

 (Emphasis mine)

by clarkent 2007-07-25 01:54PM | 0 recs
Sure there is.

In Illinois you can't renew your license or registration anymore without a policy.  If you "opt out" and get caught, you lose your license and a lot of money.

How does Edwards transform a mandate into actual coverage of every person?

------

If it isn't every person, then aren't the various plans just "more" vs. "less" universal (which seems like spin to me since that's really non-universal).

The opportunity, for both plans, is universal, but that's not the criticism of Obama, right?

by chicago jeff 2007-07-25 06:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry

As with Medicare you would automatically get this coverage.  That would make it Universal.

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:20PM | 0 recs
In other words, a hope for universal health care .

... not an expectation of universal health care.

Obama's take is that if he can succeed in making health insurance affordable for everyone then everyone can have access to it.

by BruceMcF 2007-07-25 01:55PM | 0 recs
Right

and he says he can fill in the holes later on, if need be.

by david mizner 2007-07-25 02:10PM | 0 recs
Well then, a less audacious hope than ...

... just "make it accessible and they all will come".

by BruceMcF 2007-07-25 02:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry

What happens when insurance companies don't play along and jack up prices?

by Peter from WI 2007-07-25 03:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry

Sorry but you cannot make healthcare affordable for everyone without a Govt mandate.  If insurance companies have their way they will cherry pick the healthiest people and the rest will be dropped.  All Seniors are covered by Medicare.  No one is dropped because of ill health.  This could not happen without a govt mandate.  

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:54PM | 0 recs
If you're argument is purely...

that Obama isn't telling the truth when he calls his plan "universal"....then you need to tell that to the folks in San Francisco, who are calling a similar plan (no individual mandate) "universal health care".

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/wes t/2006/07/20/70664.htm

It's really more how folks use the term...universal mandated coverage...or universally available coverage.  It doesn't seem fair to slam Obama for using the same shorthand.  It's not like he's pretending his plan has an individual mandate.

by rashomon 2007-07-25 02:09PM | 0 recs
He does

more than call it universal, he claims that everyone will have coverage--when experts say it will leave 15 million uninsured.

In any case, I don't see why San Francisco's dishonest title would excuse Obama's.

by david mizner 2007-07-25 02:12PM | 0 recs
Re: If you're argument is purely...

it's pretty easy to look up the commond definition of universal healthcare- which you can find both on dictionary.com and wikipedia- mandatory insurance is part of the deal. There's not spinning this. I expect people to try, but as I said at Ezra's site, Obama at the very least should admit he's not using the commonly understood term that experts in the field use. Instead, like you he uses one that lobbist use. He's already poisoning the disucssion by using a definition that limits what unversal means according to the experts.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 02:38PM | 0 recs
That's a good point

He's defining "universal" down

by david mizner 2007-07-25 02:43PM | 0 recs
Re: That's a good point

it's worse. He's acting like a lawyer. He knows there are multiple definitions of universal healthcare, and he is using the not the one that is most often meant by the term, but the one that lobbists and others use that more narrowly defines it. I am fine with his plan not being perfect. But as a lawyer for him to engage in this language manipulation just smell bad. It allows him and others to spin what he is doing and allows for him to have wiggle room while appearing to be a leader. As I told someone else it's precisely this characteristic of his approach to politics that I don't like. The part where he can engage in a Rorshach's test where people see and hear what they want. His language use allows that manipulation. All policians do it. Clinton does it with Iraq. Edwards does it over issues too. But if Obama's supporters think he is above this kind of misleading manipulation this is an example of how that's not true. He knows full well the different definitions- or why else does he and his supporters conveniently use the less frequently used one.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 02:53PM | 0 recs
Re: That's a good point
How is it "language manipulation" to call it "univeral" when EVERYONE who wants it can get it?
  I agree that Obama's plan is not the best possible: it has a significant free rider problem. Many young adults probably won't buy it even if his plan makes it "univerally" affordable. But I resent it's being called dishonest. (You might say that Edwards is being dishonest for not saying that his plan calls for a large tax increase on low and moderate income people--even though the tax would come in the form of premiums to insurance companies mandated by the power for the government. Is he being dishonest?)
by skeptica 2007-07-25 04:13PM | 0 recs
Re: That's a good point

Because the phrase universal healthcare is understood to be term of art. it's like saying the word 'intent' in a legal context. it's understood to have a specific meaning. obama knows this about universal healthcare and he knows that most people will use the word to mean universal not almost universal. the issue is that he doesn't bother to correct their assumption. it's misleading to not correct someone's assumption that you know will lead them to the wrong conclusion. could they figure it out? sure. does this say something about his character that he hasn't bothered to correct them? yes.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 04:35PM | 0 recs
Re: That's a good point

does this say something about his character that he hasn't bothered to correct them? yes.

Absolutely perfect explanation.

by DoIT 2007-07-25 05:07PM | 0 recs
Re: That's a good point

In order to be Universal all Americans would be mandated to sign on to it.

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:21PM | 0 recs
I don't think they're manipulating here.

We know what they mean.  We all know there are holes in both plans.  We also know that Edwards makes his hole smaller by threatening something some people won't like.

  (enforcing the mandate, whatever that ends up  
    meaning)

---------

If this were a court case -- or impeachment proceeding -- I'd agree.  But it's not.  It's an effort by two great men to rally a diverse electorate to support big change.

Of course neither one is emphasizing the problems with their plans but ... they'd be idiots if they did.

by chicago jeff 2007-07-25 07:04PM | 0 recs
Re: If you're argument is purely...

AMEN!

by skeptica 2007-07-25 04:08PM | 0 recs
The Daily Kos Attack Crew is out.

No matter how peaceful you try to be with these guys:  Tomp, David Mizner, and pioneer111 will stop at nothing from attacking Obama while claiming they have the high moral ground.  Anybody that attacks their candidate is a right wing shill.

Now I will let this diary stand on its merits but I would appreciate the same courtesy when I return the favor about John Edwards.  Do not start slapping me with donuts because I was responding to your criticisms.

Other than that, do your thing.  I do not mind you questioning my candidate but you should show the same courtesy when somebody starts questioning yours.

by lovingj 2007-07-25 01:29PM | 0 recs
I've never

take offense to criticism of JRE's record or policies. Hell, I criticized Edwards all the time.

loving j, please provide proof that Obama's plan will cover everyone.

by david mizner 2007-07-25 01:30PM | 0 recs
Re: I've never

please provide proof

This phrase is an oxymoron to an Obama supporter.

by DoIT 2007-07-25 02:29PM | 0 recs
Re: I've never

So now everyone who likes Obama is a complete moron who doesn't understand truth?

by JDF 2007-07-25 03:02PM | 0 recs
Re: I've never

Very well put. Hey, just kidding.

by DoIT 2007-07-25 03:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Lovingj just can't debate the points

I didn't attack Obama.  But you keep attacking me.  What is YOUR problem.  Can't debate the points?

You try to deflect debate by impugning people who have the facts.

Who is talking about right wing shills here?  I'm not.  

What David is presenting is what Ezra points out.  Can you dispute it?  No?  So when Obama says it is a universal health plan it is NOT.

by pioneer111 2007-07-25 01:58PM | 0 recs
I resent your personal

attack on me and the others.  Each of those people, including me, have never been banned at Daily Kos. We may be strong advocates, but we advocate within the rules.  

by TomP 2007-07-25 02:24PM | 0 recs
Re: I resent your personal

I have never seen any of the diarists mentioned above cross the line. There is a differnce between critisizing and smearing. At least the healthcare issue is a very important one to argue over.

by RDemocrat 2007-07-25 04:01PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

It is a shame that this has become such an issue, and I hate to say it, but both Edwards and Klein are right. Obama's plan is not true "Universal Healthcare."

The reason I say that it is a shame that it is an issue is that Obama's plan is a good plan, and it is one that I support. The reason this is an issue is because "Universal Healthcare" has, for good or ill, become the solution to our healthcare crisis. What I mean by that is any plan that comes from a Democratic candidate BETTER be called Universal Healthcare or we are not going to take it, or them, seriously.

Because of this attitude Obama is forced to call his plan Universal Healthcare despite the fact that he, and everyone else, knows that it is not an accurate way to describe his good, and achievable, plan.

by JDF 2007-07-25 01:30PM | 0 recs
Honest comment

Not something you see in every thread. But if Obama felt that he had to have a universal plan, he should have produced a universal plan. This wasn't hard to anticipate given that JRE had been touting his plan for months.

by david mizner 2007-07-25 01:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Honest comment

At that point you are just throwing money at the problem.  

Right now we can't figure out how to focus in on the last Approx 15 million because we don't know who they are or how many there are.  After Obama's plan is implemented, then he can focus in on the remaining gaps in a cost efficient way.  

by JeremiahTheMessiah 2007-07-25 01:44PM | 0 recs
First create the hole in the coverage ...

... and then fill it? Why start with a plan with the hole in it at the outset, that needs to be filled later?

by BruceMcF 2007-07-25 02:00PM | 0 recs
Re: First create the hole in the coverage ...

The fact is you're filling it before you know how to.  Cost ineffective.  Edwards plan just takes money and throws it at the problem.  Obama is going to re-evaluate why people can't afford health care, and then pass legislation to reform health care some more.  

by JeremiahTheMessiah 2007-07-25 02:06PM | 0 recs
Where does that fact come from?

It is true that we do not know how with tremendous precision many people will take up a plan based on accessibility and affordability alone. After all, no other comparable economy attempts to come "close to" Universal Health Care in that way, so it is very difficult to get a clear idea of the exact terrain in the middle of that gap between where we are now and Universal Health Care.

The question is, since we know it will not reach universal based on accessibility and affordability alone, why do the exploration of the contours of the gap? Why not go straight to Universal Health Care?

Don't confuse cost effectiveness in an economic sense and the budgetary commitment. The savings to the economy of people having coverage ... in terms of improving access to preventative care, and in terms of reducing cost-shifting within the system to fund people who are unable to obtain or choose not to obtain health insurance. So the budgetary commitment that allows the program to be a Universal Health Care system is one that yields dividends for the competitiveness of American business and the whole American economy.

by BruceMcF 2007-07-25 05:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Honest comment

But we all agree that, at least at the outset, neither plan will be truly universal. The point is regardless of this any plan put out by a Democrat will be called Universal. I think instead of arguing about the somantics, or calling Obama a liar, we should be arguing the relative merits of each plan.

As to whether or not he should have produced a "truly" Universal plan. One of the things I like about Obama is that I think he focuses on what is both good and achievable instead of just good. Getting everything we (we being the progressive community) wants is going to occur in stages, probably many stages, and I feel that Obama is approaching it in that way.

by JDF 2007-07-25 01:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Honest comment

The Edwards plan is a way to get to single-payer in stages. Obama's

by clarkent 2007-07-25 01:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Honest comment

agreed- the assumption is that when given a choice between a low cost effective govt plan or a private plan- most will choose the low cost govt plan.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

That's a fantastic observation. I feel the same way.

by This Machine Kills Fascists 2007-07-25 04:23PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

Check out the Canadian website.  It will tell you everything about Universal Healthcare and how its provided.

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:24PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

No one is forced to fudge the truth.

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:56PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

Since we are talking about the debates here.  Obama talked to Edwards about the plan.  Edwards said his is mandated and therefore universal.  Obama said CA car insurance is mandated but not everyone has car insurance.  

Obama went on to say that after his plan is implemented, then we have a new situation to analyze.  Getting the last approx. 15 million people to where they can afford health care will be different, but doable.  It is also near impossible to decide what you would do to focus in on the remaining uninsured persons, since we don't know who they are, or how many of them there will be.  

(EXAMPLE) If you have a big city with 1 million people who don't have health insurance, you could put money upfront and push economic development in that area to create jobs.  Then you are not only giving the people health care, but a steady income too.  

As of right now, we are at a point where a few simple changes, not too costly, will make a huge difference.  After that it will take small changes such as forcing economic development to fill in the gaps.  Ignoring the problem won't solve it.  Obama has confronted the fact that his plan isn't universal before.  I haven't seen Edwards say his isn't universal, as it isn't, is he being truthful?  Interesting how your diary doesn't have the other side of the story here.  

by JeremiahTheMessiah 2007-07-25 01:39PM | 0 recs
What is the reason for the belief that ...

... simply making it affordable to all will ensure that nobody takes a free ride because they imagine that they are unlikely to need health care?

Obama went on to say that after his plan is implemented, then we have a new situation to analyze.  Getting the last approx. 15 million people to where they can afford health care will be different, but doable.

Also, note that Edwards plan gets those people to the point where they can afford health care at the outset.

by BruceMcF 2007-07-25 01:58PM | 0 recs
Re: What is the reason for the belief that ...

Again, he does it in one of the most cost inefficient ways.  He ends up throwing money in to cover people instead of finding other ways to cut down on Health care prices.  You have to re-evaluate the situation after it changes, which is what Obama is doing, to finish reforming health care, instead of creating new ones.  

by JeremiahTheMessiah 2007-07-25 02:07PM | 0 recs
To explain it 'again', you must explain a ...

... first time why Edward's plan is "cost-inefficient".

For example, under Obama's plan, employer's pay a penalty directly into the funding base of the public plan. In Edwards plan, when a company chooses "pay", that payment is a contribution to the premium of the individual employee, who chooses their plan in the Health Market.

Why is Obama's approach to pay or play more "cost-effective" than Edwards approach to pay or play?

by BruceMcF 2007-07-25 02:45PM | 0 recs
Also, this is not actually true.

He ends up throwing money in to cover people instead of finding other ways to cut down on Health care prices.

There is not an "instead of". He both provides sufficient money to cover people and also finds additional ways to cut down Health care prices.

Yes, for the system as a whole, it is true that universal health care will save money ... but it is simply not true that Edwards relies on the savings from Universal health care alone.

by BruceMcF 2007-07-25 06:03PM | 0 recs
Re: What is the reason for the belief that ...

The way to cut the cost of healthcare is to mandate if for all Americans.  The more people who are covered the lower the cost.

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:30PM | 0 recs
Re: What is the reason for the belief that ...

You cannot reform healthcare unless you cover the 50 million Americans who are currently without insurance. Obama is just paying lip service to a very serious issue.

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:32PM | 0 recs
Re: What is the reason for the belief that ...

Do you have evidence that Edwards' plan makes insurance affordable to more people than Obama's plan does?  It seems to me they have pretty similar approaches to increasing affordability.  The fact that Edwards' plan includes a mandate doesn't mean that he will make insurance more affordable than Obama will.  

by Gauss Bonnet 2007-07-25 04:44PM | 0 recs
Its actually Obama that has to show he makes ...

... health care as affordable, given that his budget is in the neighborhood of 40% to 50% smaller. "Pretty similar approaches", but a funding commitment from Edwards that was designed at the outset to reach his first priority of a Universal Health Care plan in the first place.

Add to that, if the employer pays a payroll premium rather than provide comprehensive health insurance, the premium helps fund the employees premium for the Health Market plan that they choose.

by BruceMcF 2007-07-25 05:10PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

Medicare is mandated for all Seniors.  When you reach 65 you fill out a form to accept Medicare or a Medicare HMO. If its a Medicare HMO then it is paid for with your Social Security money just as it would be if you choose traditional Medicare.

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:28PM | 0 recs
Univer Health Care does not ...

... scan ... I would recommend, if you want 2/3 of that term, Versal Health Care.

by BruceMcF 2007-07-25 01:56PM | 0 recs
This is what "Compromise" on UHC gets

you... Obama.

by jsamuel 2007-07-25 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

his plan does cover everybody. He just doesn't use mandates to get there. He has said that if people do not buy insurance he will ensure that they are covered later. They think 2 percent of the public will not buy in, and they'll cover them in the next phase.

So he does cover everybody, just in steps.

And by the way, I've said this a million times but people keep ignoring it. Edwards' plan doesn't cover everybody either, so he's just as misleading. Just because you mandate coverage doesn't mean it happens because penalties will not force someon eto buy something they can't afford. See car insurance.

by dpg220 2007-07-25 02:37PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

it's not the definition of universal healthcare as commonly used. if his plan isn't unversal or geared towards that- he should say so. that's the only requirement being asked here.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 02:45PM | 0 recs
See above

there's going to be a default plan to scoop up those whom their agressive outreach plan misses.

by david mizner 2007-07-25 02:45PM | 0 recs
But you are admitting the plan itself ...

... does not cover everyone.

He has said that if people do not buy insurance he will ensure that they are covered later.

They think 2 percent of the public will not buy in, and they'll cover them in the next phase.

So the GOAL is Universal Coverage, and when the PLAN fails to get there, the STRATEGY is to take it from there.

Well, why doesn't he just say that. "My Universal Health Care Plan is to start with the detailed plan I present, which won't get to Universal Health Care on its own, and then take it from there." ... maybe end his Health Care Plan write up with:

To Be Continued ...

by BruceMcF 2007-07-25 02:53PM | 0 recs
surprise, surprise?

Is this a surprise from our 'hope' candidate?

by areyouready 2007-07-25 02:43PM | 0 recs
Jonathan Cohn
First point: We can all agree the presidential debates have done a terrible job on this. Every single debate, a question about health care comes up, Edwards says he has the only universal plan, Obama says his is too, and then they move on to the next question. I think this is a fair question that deserves genuine debate. The Obama campaign obviously has reasons for not going to an individual mandate, but we haven't heard a full account yet. It leaves us speculating. I would love to see Obama or his health care staff (which includes at least Dora Hughes, David Cutter, and David Blumenthal --- all very capable and articulate people) to speak more openly about it.

Second point: I feel like Cohn does a better job of talking about the motives behind not going for individual mandates than David Mizner quotes in his diary. (No criticism there, I just think the discussion would benefit from these too.) I'll just cite two:
They believe that their initiative will help cover most Americans within two or three years. After that, they say, they can come back to the problem and, following through on Obama's promise, cover that relatively small portion of the population that still doesn't have coverage. If that requires passing some sort of mandate then, so be it. They're prepared to do so.

In other words, they've promised universal coverage within four years (end of first presidential term), they plan to put out a plan and take a look in two/three yrs if there's still a need for a mandate. (No one's telling any lies here, they have four years to make sure they get it right and they plan to use it to try things out.) So why the more cautious move forward?
Obama's logic here starts with a policy concern--namely, fearing that a mandate will create more problems than it solves. Obama doesn't want to make people buy insurance until, first, he's sure he's made it affordable. Otherwise, he fears, some working-class people would be forced to buy insurance when, in fact, doing so would impose real financial hardship. Lest this fear seem purely hypothetical, Obama's advisers say this is pretty much what has happened in Massachusetts--where, having passed a mandate, the state has struggled to deliver a good insurance product at rates everybody can afford.
Cohn responds to these concerns from Obama in the article, but we can all agree they're real concerns and there are real differences about how to deal with them. It's too bad none of this is discussed in the debates.
by psericks 2007-07-25 03:04PM | 0 recs
As I said

there's a case to be made against mandates. In fact, Gore argued against Bill Bradley's plan, which included a mandate, from the left.

So that's fair game, if Obama wants to make the case against a mandate. I would agree with him, but it's a legit, honest argument.

by david mizner 2007-07-25 03:07PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said

you notice they keep trying to gloss over the character point by talking about the plan as if what they are saying is commonly understood about Obama's plan?

by bruh21 2007-07-25 03:12PM | 0 recs
Right

We're at 100 comments now and no one has convincingly made the case that Obama is telling the truth. Most have even tried to make the case.

by david mizner 2007-07-25 03:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Right

This is going to be psychobabble so take it for what it's worth. This diary isn't unique to me amongst some Obama supporters. I've seen it before or amongst policians.

I think the problem you face (and Edwards) is a difficult one. This isn't for several of his supports about 'normal' politics, but, instead, their need to believe so much in a candidate that any facts to the contrary are met with either "of course that was understood" or denial. It's beyond politics which of course is bizzare because it is politics.

Both the approaches- denial or "of course"- are on display here. A kind of cognitive dissonance about what they are arguing. They can argue that your point is right, but not admit what that means.

It's frankly frustrating because some of Obama's support has the exact same feel of Bush's support. I say "some" so please no one jump down my throat because I've met those for whom what I am about to say isn't true who are Obama supporters: For some, this is faith based support rather than reality based. Obama will do it because he's Obama so he will do it. Bush will suceed because he's a good Christian man which translates into Bush will do it because Bush is Bush.

I've seen it offline too. I tried to have a discussion with this guy about why Obama's compromise-before-you-have-to-compromise approach isn't really a smart strategy because it means you tend to end up with less than you could have gotten even if compromise is necessary. His definition, here, for example, strikes me as attempt at a compromise (he seems to think) again before one has to. You can see some of his supporters try this line of argument as an 'of course" approach. Of course Obama wants this because of course he couldn't get more. Nevermind the GOP regularly proves their of course false about one can do with even a little power if one is savvy enough to come to the game realizing what game you are playing. What they are really saying is that of course the Democrats can't get this even if the public wants it because we won't even try to be savvy about it.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 04:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Right

I read your comment very thoroughly because I wanted to hear your analysis of "Obama supporters," a group which I count myself a member of, to see if there was anything in there I could observe about myself and make a necessary change. But, I did indeed find it "psychobabble" and largely incomprehensible. Care to clarify? I am genuinely interested.

by This Machine Kills Fascists 2007-07-25 04:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Right

not really because if you dont get it then you wont get it. now faith based versus reality based is incomprehensible - okay if you say so.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 04:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Right

Come on now - no need to be so condescending, you were the one who said "psychobabble," not me. I just ask because I hear a LOT of noise on this site about Obama supporters acting in certain ways and I want to hear an articulation about what it is that we do that gets you so riled up. Faith-based vs. reality...right now, support of EVERY candidate is "faith-based," because they aren't yet in office. It's all about in which candidate you have faith to do what you think is right.

by This Machine Kills Fascists 2007-07-25 04:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Right

you were presented with a pretty simple scenario. a prhase with a specific meaning was used by someone in a misleading way about his program. Rather than responding to the misleading nature of the use of the prhase by Obama, the response has been to jusify it. If this were any other candidate you would crying bloody murder. So when I say faith based- that's not condescension- that's based on your willful blindness about your candidate. Whether you can deal with that about yourself is irrelevant to whether it's a fair judgment to question the behavior of someoen who can't even admit obvious cases of candidates using misleading language. for the record, universal healthcare isn't just some term one can just say their plan is. it has a specific meaning. your candidate knows that. he choose to use that term anyhow. until you address the chracter question that this raises- i will continue to think you are faith based because that's what bush's supporters did with his policies such as the war on terror.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 04:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Right

For Christ's sake...it is condescending to say "you just don't get it," especially if you said yourself what you wrote might be hard to get. I honestly wanted to hear what you had to say, but no longer. You compare me to Bush supporters and call me blind in my support? Okay, fine, that's what you think. But to say I didn't respond - that's bullshit. I responded exactly to what you asked, but I didn't say "Obama's a lying bastard," which was evidently the only thing you were willing to hear. I know people don't come on blogs to actually engage in fair discourse, but still...I expected a little more respect.

by This Machine Kills Fascists 2007-07-25 05:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Right

why because everyone gets everything? well i guess the 26 percent of public that still thinks saddam hussien was behind 9/11 would agree that condescension can be defined the way you define it.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 07:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Right

Here's what went down: you wrote some "psychobabble" about Obama supporters that I thought might have some good insights, but i found it difficult to understand. I asked for clarification. Then, to my shock, you replied not with clarification but with total and complete condescension. I was honestly surprised by the asshole-ness of your response. And now we're in a ridiculous comment war where you just compared me to idiots who think Iraq and 9/11 are related. I'll bring this up next time an Edwards person has the gall to suggest it's strictly Obama people who are ruining the discourse on this site.

by This Machine Kills Fascists 2007-07-26 10:26AM | 0 recs
Re: As I said
But if Obama's staff is open looking for gaps in two to three years, since day one still open to an individual mandate if it's necessary, but are looking to warm up the pool before they jump in, in what sense are they being misleading, let alone lying?
by psericks 2007-07-25 03:39PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said

you keep glossing over the character issue, and frankly having read your writing I know you realize that this is the main point.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 04:08PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said
I'm not sure what you mean by the "character issue"? You mean the question of whether Obama is telling an untruth? I just responded to that. Obama has stated clearly that they're still open to an individual mandate after they look at how the plan has worked in the first two or three years. They want to prove that they can make health care more affordable before they force everyone to buy it, and they're counting that most people will.
Obama's promise is universal health care in four years. He has the first two or three to let his plan fly and has openly stated he is willing to consider an individual mandate at that time.
by psericks 2007-07-25 04:38PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said

he's calling universal which has a specific meaning.f or him to make that claim is misleading. again, i have to question why you don't seem to get this.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 04:42PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said
Here's what you're not understanding. From Cohn:
They believe that their initiative will help cover most Americans within two or three years. After that, they say, they can come back to the problem and, following through on Obama's promise, cover that relatively small portion of the population that still doesn't have coverage. If that requires passing some sort of mandate then, so be it. They're prepared to do so.
Obama's plan hinges on this trial period of two to three years. He wants to push through his program, see its progress, and then make up the difference either with a tool targeted at a specific demographic their plan isn't reaching (for example, young people who are free-loading or working class people still unable to afford the coverage, etc.) or by instituting an individual mandate, if they feel it's necessary.
He believes instituting a full mandate (he so far has one for children and employers with more than 15 employees) is more practical when you've proven that you've brought down costs and covered the majority of people now without coverage.
Obama's promise is to get us to universal coverage by the end of his first term. He has a plan to do so relying on a trial period and then a second wave of legislation to fill in the gaps.
This is what he has stated openly. There's no untruthfulness here. You can criticize this approach, as Cohn does, but the Obama people consider it the most realistic, both practically and politically. It is a reasonably cautious plan.
Cohn's analogy is that Edwards is jumping in the deep end, which could cause problems but would at least ensure that everyone is included, while Obama is wading in a bit at a time.
by psericks 2007-07-25 04:55PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said

then he shouldn't call it universal healthcare- what part of that don't you understand?

by bruh21 2007-07-25 05:00PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said
You keep repeating your point without responding to any of the details of mine. His plan is to take us to universal health care in four years. He lays out a timetable for doing so, which involves a trial period and two separate waves of legislation. The end result is to be universal coverage.
by psericks 2007-07-25 05:01PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said

because your details are irrelevant to the question of the usage of terms and the plan that he has on the table right now for implementing. what he 'may' do in the future isn't what he is proposing to do right now. i may be a billionaire in the futre, but it would be misleading to claim that i am one now based on the fact i am worth a million.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 05:06PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said
Obama is arguing that, in order to get to universal coverage, we need this two year trial period to prove we can bring costs down and to insure as many people as we can.
He's set himself a timetable, and he's arguing that, pragmatically, you probably can't manage it all in one set of legislation. You can disagree with that, but it's an honest and open statement.
by psericks 2007-07-25 05:13PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said

you can keep saying its an honest disagreement. blah blah blahn if that makes you feel better, but it's still misleading because language has a specific meaning. using it incorrectly is the very definition of misleading. thats not honest disagreement- thats you having blinders.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 05:15PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said

I think a good definition of having blinders is saying the same thing over and over again regardless of what the other person says. It's the online equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and going "La la la, I'm not listening!"

by This Machine Kills Fascists 2007-07-25 05:38PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said

 thats a definition of not allowing people to spin a simple conversation just because they don't like what it means for their candidate. look its clear you cant handle reality so keep on trying to make this about me rather than the fact you are throwing evertying but relevant information to the question asked by the diarist.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 07:26PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said

Yeah, you're right, I can't handle reality. I'ma go in my cave now and never come back out.

The only way you could be more of a pompous ass is if you were a donkey who went to Yale.

by This Machine Kills Fascists 2007-07-26 10:21AM | 0 recs
Re: As I said

and if you don't get why using misleading language brings a persons character into question then I am not sure what to tell you.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 04:43PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said

At some point in the 2004 primaries, the difference between the Dean and Kerry health plans (like the difference between the Gore and Bradley plans in 2000) was a significant issue. Does anyone here now remember the difference between them? How many people here don't think that either Edwards' or Obama's plan would be a big improvement over what we have now? Or that a single-payer plan would be better than either? Can't we avoid resorting to ad hominem attacks based on these plans when both candidates and their supporters agree on many basic principles and those attacks provide fodder for cynicism and for Republicans' later attacks?

by skeptica 2007-07-25 08:36PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said

you misuse the word ad honiem. wiki the word or look it up in the dictionary. asking questions of character isn't an ad honinem attack.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 08:41PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said

In this country we pay more for healthcare than any other country in the world and 50 million people are without coverage.  Its damn important as an issue -- its not just a throwaway line for any Pol running for president.

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:46PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said

In this country we pay more for healthcare than any other country in the world and 50 million people are without coverage.  Its damn important as an issue -- its not just a throwaway line for any Pol running for president.

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:46PM | 0 recs
Re: As I said

You need to have mandates in order to cover all Americans at the least expensive rate.  Right now Americans pay more for healthcare than any other country in the world and we leave 50 million people without insurance.

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:34PM | 0 recs
My own concerns
I don't actually have an answer on whether individual mandates provide a solution or not, but I'm skeptical for a few reasons.
Enough people have already brought up the concerns in this thread about whether making it mandatory will really get everyone to buy in, what kind of regulatory apparatus would be required, etc. And Cohn mentions a few of those of the Obama campaign.
But I wanted to raise a couple other concerns.
1. Flexibility: Flexibility has its charms. People go through periods of unemployment, going back to school or for re-training, an internship, taking a couple years off work to raise kids, etc. There are times when someone simply doesn't have the funds and needs to take the risk to go a couple months without coverage. They are, of course, in a sense, free-loading in the case they get ill, but people genuinely have these temporary times of need.
2. "Affordability": It's great that Edwards has a flexible scale, but there are still a lot of questions here. For one, affordability is a relative term not only between income levels but within them. Income can be variable throughout the year --- I mentioned above some ways how.
3. As goes Massachusetts...: I'm interested to see how Massachusetts ends up dealing with these problems and what kind of coverage they can come up with. Just for an anecdote: I talked to a recent college grad friend of a friend in Massachusetts has a $150/month plan, which she isn't sure how to pay for during the next few months as she looks for a job and on top of her college debt payments. I don't know, the costs per month can still end up being pretty substantial for people who are unemployed, beyond jobs, going back to school, etc.
by psericks 2007-07-25 03:45PM | 0 recs
Re: My own concerns

you ae still glossing over the character question with regard to obama not being forthright about this.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 04:09PM | 0 recs
Re: My own concerns

My feeling is, if we take the word "universal" literally, then no plan, including Edwards', is really UHC. So I think Obama calling his plan universal is more spin than an outright lie, spin that is, as someone pointed out above, used because Americans associate a good health care plan with the term "universal."

by This Machine Kills Fascists 2007-07-25 04:35PM | 0 recs
Re: My own concerns

its simply misleading because universal healthcare is a term of art, and obama knows this. i really dont understand your point. it's okay to mislead through spin? and that doesn't reflect badly on obama? for that matter- how do you know what most americans believe? wikipedia the prhase universal healthcare- it will give you the common definition.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 04:41PM | 0 recs
Re: My own concerns

Well you've got me there, I don't know what most Americans believe, but I can guess that since the term UHC has been used so frequently, it would be natural that Americans would want their healthcare plan to bear this term. All I'm saying is, no plan is literally universal unless it covers every single last person in the country who needs healthcare, for free. And I don't know of any plan where, as someone else said, all you do is walk into a hospital, show your ID, and they treat you. That would be universal. I don't think this whole thing really reflects badly on Obama, because I agree with his plan. I can see how people think it's dishonest, though, and I wish he would stop saying it and just explain his plan, so we could avoid all the arguments about semantics.

by This Machine Kills Fascists 2007-07-25 04:45PM | 0 recs
Re: My own concerns

again- look up the term of wikipedia and other sources. it has a specific meaning. obama knows that. he also knows his plan isn't meant to produce universal coverage. anything less than amditting that is misleading especially when he chooses to use the term without defining it to mean what lobbists use as their definition.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 04:55PM | 0 recs
Re: My own concerns
You're not responding to Machine's point that no plan is literally universal, i.e. every single living, breathing person has coverage, regardless of whether it's mandatory or not.
by psericks 2007-07-25 05:05PM | 0 recs
Re: My own concerns

again because universal healthcare is a term of art that includes mandates. if he doesn't mean that- he should make that clear.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 05:09PM | 0 recs
Re: My own concerns

you can not simply make up your own definition and say well i get that he means that definition. its misleading to do so.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 05:10PM | 0 recs
Re: My own concerns

Call it Medicare for all Americans.  Call it Single Payer healthcare.  It needs to be mandated in order to cover all Americans at the lowest costs.

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Jonathan Cohn
You will not need to buy insurance if you have single payer healthcare.  The money will come from taxes.  In Canada its about
$90.00 to $150.00 per month per person.  Those who cannot afford that amount the govt pays.  The cost per month for single payer is cheaper than most people can buy private insurance.  I agree the candidates have done a poor job explaining this to Americans.  There should be a forum just to discuss this vital issue.
by changehorses08 2007-07-26 12:02AM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

I hear good arguments on both sides of the question.

Frankly, though, I think this type of debate has no political import.

As long as each candidate proposes some kind of change to the status quo that increases coverage, they're politically immunized.

by Bush Bites 2007-07-25 05:23PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

this isn't about whether candidates are immune. it was about whether his supporters could be honest about what he is doint. apparently not.

by bruh21 2007-07-25 07:27PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

Obama is out there to sell Obama.  He is being well-financed by the fat cats and promoted by the media for being purposely vague about most issues.  The fact is that in this country you can go bankrupt because of medical bills.  This is not true anywhere in the world where there is a Single Payer Healthcare system. There is nothing new about this kind of politics.  

by changehorses08 2007-07-25 11:42PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

Somebody wake me when the bickering is over.  

yawn

by RickD 2007-07-26 01:35AM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

The internets are not a bed, they're a series of tubes.

by bowiegeek 2007-07-26 02:48AM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

when I am not interested in a diary, I don't comment or read it.  funny how that works.

by bruh21 2007-07-26 05:02AM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

A gold star for you!

The implied comment I was making is that these kinds of accusations are not terribly interesting to me, and I would prefer to see diaries about more substantial issues.  

by RickD 2007-07-26 05:10AM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

I don't care what's of interest to you unless you write rathr than whine about it.

by bruh21 2007-07-26 05:12AM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama is simply not being truthful"

by the way- you don't get to say alone what's interesting and/or important. that's a group thing. either you can't handle that- don't come on a blog because thats what they do.

by bruh21 2007-07-26 05:13AM | 0 recs
David is simply being obtuse

as in ...

"How can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?" Shawshank Redemption

I know David thinks he is scoring points by calling Obama lier but, really, it can stop now.

If you look at Obama's policy page Creating a Healthcare System that Works he does not use the word Universal to describe his plan. Unlike Edwards who flatly states on his page that his plan "achieves universal coverage".

The term Universal is of course open for interpretation because I don't believe any plan covers the entire UNIVERSE.

Here is a simple guide to the use of the term Universal Healthcare by the various players.

Obama - Universally Affordable Insurance
Edwards - Universally Mandated Insurance (whether it's affordable or not)
Hillory - Universally ..... (I'm not interested enought to look it up)

David Mizer - Universally .... what ever it takes to keep calling Obama a lier ... Insurance

by JoeCoaster 2007-07-26 08:09AM | 0 recs
Re: David is simply being obtuse

you are misusing language, but i am not surprised after this thread the extent which some of you will do that to convince yourself that you are right.

by bruh21 2007-07-26 09:44AM | 0 recs
write another 2000 word diary ....

then maybe you will convince yourself you're right. Talk about going to extremes.

by JoeCoaster 2007-07-26 10:03AM | 0 recs
Re: write another 2000 word diary ....

I doubt you are interested in hearing anyone else's opinion besides your own. That much is clear.

by bruh21 2007-07-26 10:24AM | 0 recs
That was a pretty darn bad diversion there, Joe.

The term Universal is of course open for interpretation because I don't believe any plan covers the entire UNIVERSE.

Is Obama's plan truly universal? Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca.

by Junior Bug 2007-07-26 12:42PM | 0 recs
Re: That was a pretty darn bad diversion there, Jo

It's no worst then David claiming to be the sole authori-tah! on the definition of "Universal Healthcare".

Just two extreme positions (ie my point).

by JoeCoaster 2007-07-26 02:03PM | 0 recs

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