Grow the f**k up, or leave, please.

This diary is being posted to highlight a very simple concept on which I just commented in another diary.

It's one thing to criticize the lack of moderation here. It's another thing to undermine the serious intent of the folks that are STILL putting forth good diaries here despite the lack of moderation, and then seeing folks acting like kids who then magnify the matter (of a lack of full-time moderation here) by pushing spam diaries to the Rec List.

It costs money to moderate a site, 24/7; frequently it costs money to moderate a site even on a part-time basis, for that matter. This site is not producing any significant profits as it is; at least that's what I've gathered reading between the lines of Jerome's comments regarding that reality.

Think of this as a public area. (That's what it is, more or less.) Some public areas are more supervised than others. The folks that run this place make no pretense about that, too.

So, stating the obvious, in smaller communities--like this--it's up to the folks that are still around to maintain things to the extent they're empowered to do so.

If you don't like it, then go somewhere else where there's more moderation. (Gosh, what a concept!)

But, out of common courtesy, if all you're going to do is sit around here rec'ing crap diaries about things like knockoff watches, then you're making the place far worse than it would be if you weren't around.

There. I said it.

Tags: blog moderation, meta, MyDD, trolls (all tags)

Comments

55 Comments

If you don't have something...

...constructive to contribute, then you're part of the problem, not the solution.

And, unless you're going to start making financial contributions to MyDD, remember, it's not your site. It belongs to someone else.

If you don't like it, then leave. But, don't f*k it up for others--by rec'ing bullshit knockoff watch diaries and the like--and then bitching about how f*ked-up it is. Because, at that point, you are creating a much greater problem than anyone that's posting spam diaries.

by bobswern 2009-01-03 10:02PM | 0 recs
agreed

If you don't have something to say, don't say it.

And don't rec other people's diaries that have nothing to say either.

by desmoinesdem 2009-01-04 06:02AM | 0 recs
Thank you, Bob...

For saying what needs to be said. I honestly don't know who's been causing more harm on this site lately, the trolls or "the troll hunters". Both sides need to calm down and agree to a cease-fire.

While I can see the need for better moderation, I also don't want to see MyDD become some hyper-censored echo chamber (like you know where) that autobans any type of open discussion. And if "the troll hunters" really want a better site, it doesn't help to prevent good diaries from making the Rec List by "shame rec'ing" spam diaries. Oh yes, and not everyone who critiques Obama is a "PUMA"!

If this open "troll war" continues, then this site will only deterioriate further. If one wants better content, then start supporting it!

by atdleft 2009-01-04 11:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Thank you, Bob...

This is one of the few sites left where discussion is encouraged. Thanks to people like you, drew, CG and Chitown, we're still able to debate things here, and yet when we do, people like spacemanspiff accuse us of being trolls.

Let's fight to keep MYDD away from the sanctimonious group think of DailyKos or the Motley Moose

by zerosomgame 2009-01-04 11:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Thank you, Bob...

zsg - not sure if you are aware but everyone in the group (except for chittown) you mentioned, including this diarist are founders of motley moose ;)

by canadian gal 2009-01-04 11:35AM | 0 recs
Then you should all make yourselves heard

That site is dominated by quisling apologists. If you and the rest will post more often then I'll review my opinion

by zerosomgame 2009-01-04 11:57AM | 0 recs
Perhaps...

I guess I'll have to budget more time for cross-posting.

by atdleft 2009-01-04 02:41PM | 0 recs
Perhaps???

You've got to be kidding

by brit 2009-01-04 02:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Then you should all make yourselves heard

well quite clearly i disagree with you.  and if i may - people might be better served by judging for themselves.

by canadian gal 2009-01-04 03:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Grow the f**k up, or leave, please.

I'm glad you cleared that up for us mortals bob!

Highly rec'd!

by spacemanspiff 2009-01-03 10:23PM | 0 recs
3AM Sun.? Is that "highly wrecked?" n/t

by bobswern 2009-01-03 10:32PM | 0 recs
Re: 3AM Sun.? Is that "highly wrecked?"

Not really. But even sober I find great humor in your "outrage". Nothing like dropping the f bomb in the title to let everybody else know how serious and mature your argument is. But hey, what do I know? I'm just some kid who needs to grow the f**k up (or leave).

by spacemanspiff 2009-01-03 10:42PM | 0 recs
Actually, there are other options...

...you could "un-rec" the diary. (Either the spam diary or this one...or both, for that matter.) But, apparently, those options didn't occur to you?

by bobswern 2009-01-03 11:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Actually, there are other options...

I'd do that if I didn't think this diary and your humorous "badass bob" attitude were a joke. The diary in question has 2 recommenders. Not hard to figure out who you're calling out. Not that I'm surprised by your attitude. I've learned to love bob both and his ego.

by spacemanspiff 2009-01-04 05:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Actually, there are other options...

Get back on your bong you whackjob. Nobody here needs your moderation. Get over yourself, and get a life

by zerosomgame 2009-01-04 10:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Actually, there are other options...

woah way to make an example in the diary!

by selfevident 2009-01-04 11:40AM | 0 recs
Re: 3AM Sun.? Is that "highly wrecked?"

I warned that Jerome's increasingly militant distortions during the primaries along with failure to moderate some of the most fact averse "bloggers" around here at that time would leave this place with badly damaged credibility and a smaller readership.  I warned that the failure to acknowledge reality and instead spout increasingly bitter and false rhetoric would result in a hemorrhaging or readers leaving behind a small group of readers and a smaller group of bloggers with any credibility.  I asked Jerome directly if he wasn't worried that's what would happen.  I was dismissed in a manner that suggested I was loony.  Now, I come back mostly to watch my predictions come true....  again.

by lockewasright 2009-01-04 05:34AM | 0 recs
Re: 3AM Sun.? Is that "highly wrecked?"

you are a legend in your mind then.  Just like this diary is for that matter.  who cares if someone rec's a diary or subject matter. It last typically 48 hrs on the rec list.

your acting as if getting rec'ed is somehow a stamp of " majority approval" or it makes the dissenters less of person(s) here.

by MumbaiBurns 2009-01-04 06:47AM | 0 recs
Re: 3AM Sun.? Is that "highly wrecked?"

No, I am acting as if 1 or 2 recs gets you to the top of the list because so few come here anymore, because the site lost credibility for the reasons that I mentioned above.

Call me what you will.  I predicted the decline of this site, and the timing of the decline.  It happened and it happened when I said that it would.  That's not my opinion.  That's factual.

by lockewasright 2009-01-04 06:59AM | 0 recs
Oh, and ask Jerome

how's that insisting that I am not right about this working out?

Buying that summer cottage with ad revenue is he?

Publishing another book and getting TV interviews is he?

Drawing diaries from TV personalities, candidates, members of congress and policy makers is he?

Maybe I AM wrong, but there has to be some reason for the decline.  There has to be a reason that readership at DD has tanked.  There has to be a reason that 1 or 2 recs gets a diary on the rec list.  The timing is pretty coincidental for me to have been completely wrong.

Perhaps Jerome should thank that nitwit that imposed the "boycott" on "the great orange satan" and then came over here spouting slander, falsehood, and delusion on a daily basis and got away with it because rather than moderating her dumb shit, Jerome was busy with his own denials of reality and hate filled delusions of his own.    Btw, does anyone even remember that lying twits name anymore?  Where is she now?

by lockewasright 2009-01-04 07:11AM | 0 recs
and some of the culprits check in...

by lockewasright 2009-01-05 09:13AM | 0 recs
Re: 3AM Sun.? Is that "highly wrecked?"

Correct me if I'm wrong-- BUT even you have 1000k posters on board and a diary gets posted , the 1 or 2 posters initially can temporary have it on the rec list?

by MumbaiBurns 2009-01-04 08:50AM | 0 recs
No. Go over to Dkos and post a diary.

You need a gazillion recs to get onto the rec list.  They actually have a problem to solve in that good informative diaries vanish quickly because it's so hard to get any staying power given how many recs it takes.  The difficulty is directly proportionate to the size of the community of active recers (love making up words). Kos needs to increase the number of diaries the rec list will hold or maybe create multiple rec lists by category.

by lockewasright 2009-01-04 10:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Grow the f**k up, or leave, please.

With all due respect (and I do respect your contributions to this site), what you consider to be magnifying a problem I consider to be the highlighting of a problem.

The lack of moderation here has little to do with money and everything to do with indifference from the top-down.  How much would it cost to even glance over at the user diaries every couple of days and ban users who are obviously spamming garbage?  The World of Warcraft spammer literally popped off over 20 diaries over the course of month before finally getting noticed (and I'm sure I'm not the only user that emailed the front pagers about it).  This latest spammer is on track to do the same.

As a community, I believe that MyDD is floundering because of this obvious lack of basic moderation.  The fact that ONE rec puts a diary on the Recommended list speaks volumes about user participation here, and it certainly isn't solely because people are burned out from the election.  If the moderators don't care enough about their site to even casually glance over at the user generated content, why should outside readers be interested?

Anyway, I agree with you that it's ridiculous that thoughtful diary entries have to share space with knock-off watch selling spam.  I used to really enjoy this community and hate seeing it in this death spiral, and I would love to see it regain some cred in the blogosphere.  I guess I just disagree with the "if you don't like it, go elsewhere" mindset.  I'd rather have the problem be addressed, and if that means trying to bring attention to it than so be it.  Hopefully, this diary will help.

by thatpurplestuff 2009-01-03 11:00PM | 0 recs
I look at it more simply than that.

Stating the obvious: This is a space for public opinion and commentary. It's driven by the folks that own and manage the blog; and also by folks like us that participate in it.

It's much more lightly moderated than most of this ilk. That's got its pros and cons. But, ultimately, that means that the folks that post here get to drive the content moreso than in more heavily-moderated environments (primarily, larger blogs).

So, ultimately, the public has more responsibility for the content in a place like this than in the more heavily-moderated environments, too.

Personally, rec'ing a spam diary here is much like going to a very small, unsupervised park and taking garbage out of the garbage cans and strewing the crap around the entranceway.

by bobswern 2009-01-03 11:11PM | 0 recs
Re: I look at it more simply than that.

That analogy only works if you consider the user generated content section of this blog to be a garbage can.  The way I see it, recommending an obvious spam diary is like taking garbage that is already all over the park and then waving it in the faces of the only people with the ability to dispose of it.

I've been reading this site for quite a while now, and up until the past year the moderators kept the diary list spam free.  It's not because of light moderation that this is a problem now, it's because of complete disinterest on the part of the front pagers.  If the end goal here is to have a community blog in which the community holds more responsibility for the content, then the ability to police ourselves should be available to us.  I'm not talking about censoring people with which we disagree, I'm talking about eliminating assholes that use this blog as a place to sell fine electronics, World of Warcraft gold, and fake watches.

by thatpurplestuff 2009-01-03 11:28PM | 0 recs
Re: I look at it more simply than that.

well I cannot understand what you are asking Bob, you say it is the responsibility of the public to moderate, but since we cannot delete diaries, we do things in effort to get them deleted.  

Then you tell us it is not our site and that it costs money to moderate, so don't go going around utilizing basic site functions in an effort to progress this site from the shit can.

Your arguments are very contradictory and the fact that you are calling out people who are trying to clean up site and who obviously care more about this site than the owner seems well, I don't know, nonsensical, especially since you are a great diarist IMO and not typically subject to nonsensical positions.  T top it off, you have all this outrage, but at what?  According to this diary, the people trying to get garbage thrown out are far far worse and immature than the diarists of the garbage.  
Really? .....Really?

by KLRinLA 2009-01-04 09:03AM | 0 recs
Re: I look at it more simply than that.

He's calling me out yet HIS diaries are the only fucking reason I come here. Users who put in the effort to "moderate" are called troll hunters and "worse" than the problem. The diary he mentions in which only thatpurplestuff and myself shame rec'd lasted less than a few hours at fucking 2 in the morning on the Rec.List.

Yet ANOTHER meta diary saying the same exact thing ALL OTHER meta diaries has said is still going strong.

ANOTHER FUCKING META DIARY.

Seriously? What a fucking joke.

You're better than this whiny Hanna Montana tween rant Bob.

I'm doing a GBCW from the comment board and the user diaries.

Charles Lemos was an awesome find by the way. Jerome has a wicked eye for talented frontpagers. I have no idea why anyone would want to just give up on a blog with so much potential and past.

Oh well.

Link me if anything good ever gets on the Rec.List.

by spacemanspiff 2009-01-04 03:07PM | 0 recs
Actually, Spiff, I wasn't calling you out.

I wrote the diary without even seeing who rec'd the spams. All I saw was more spams on the rec list. That's the only reason why I wrote the diary.

I hope you'll stay. You're taking this personally, and you should not. Nothing could be further from my intentions, in terms of why I posted what I posted here.

In fact, truth be told, I enjoy your harassing of trolls around here. Cracks me up at times, in fact.

That's targeted activity, however.

Pushing spam to the rec list, however, is something that diminishes the quality of the site for all users, if for no other reason than it keeps "real" diaries off the rec list.

So, again, this was not--in any way shape or form--directed at you Spiffy. You're one of my favorite people here, in fact.  

by bobswern 2009-01-04 03:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Actually, Spiff, I wasn't calling you out.

Good on you, Bob.

by fogiv 2009-01-04 04:59PM | 0 recs
MyDD is dying

I believe MyDD is dying.

I too believe that an aura of indifference has settled upon the site.

I trace this change in moderation tone to coincide coincidentally (or not) with the conclusion of the primary war.

I believe that MyDD was allowed to become a haven for those with an anti-Obama/anti-democrat agenda during the primary, and while most have been expunged, the site is still a target for pumas and red-staters all in disguise, often as "concerned" democrats, due to the low volume of worthwhile material, thereby allowing worthless material to be more visible.

I believe that a tighter crackdown on sockpuppetry and trolls (one account per IP) and the ability to unrecommended a diary would go a long way to helping the site.

by iohs2008 2009-01-04 07:21AM | 0 recs
Re: MyDD is dying

Whoa-there!

I completely disagree that MyDD became a haven for anti-Obama sentiment during the primaries. I actually found it one of the few places that instead of being anti-Obama, wasn't fervently anti-Hillary. But if you equate the two, then.... And it certainly wasn't anti-Democrat.

I found it a haven for thoughtful debate during the primaries. And I still do. I thought it was during the General election as well.

One thing that I don't like and I think we don't see here is snarky riducule of opponents. I think we saw that directed at Hillary over at dailykos when they all rallied around Obama early on. Then directed at McCain during the general and Republicans in general.

I don't like concern trolling either. But I do think that there is a place for reasoned debate. And we should acknowledge that we best our opponents when we are at our best. When we learn from their mistakes and victories just the same as we learn from our own.

by carrieboberry 2009-01-05 05:05AM | 0 recs
There was a vigorous debate

the problem was that Jerome killed it off when he took away rating privileges after the "Is this snark?" thing.  He was right to let Alegre post here even though her posts were mindless fan-worship.  He was wrong, though, to punish people for following the guidelines of the site which call for downrating comments that serve only to belittle other users.  Suddenly, he wasn't encouraging open discussion, he was a hypocrite.  It pissed people off and they left.  Soon after, Alegre and the rest of the PUMAs jumped ship (big surprise: when you lie down with dogs...) and now there's hardly anyone left.

by sneakers563 2009-01-05 08:42AM | 0 recs
Re: There was a vigorous debate

It's a shame then, if that's true.

I never paid much attention to Alegre one way or the other to be honest. And I skipped over any other shrillness as well.

I don't have a lot of time to spend on MyDD either, so maybe I just hadn't noticed that people had jumped ship. Hopefully folks will return. Or others will take their places.

by carrieboberry 2009-01-06 07:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Grow the f**k up, or leave, please.

Lack of moderation is a big problem here.  I wish you would try to understand that, bob.  As much as I like your diaries from time to time, on this youre flat wrong.

by moscow 2009-01-04 01:36AM | 0 recs
Now how would you know that?

by louisprandtl 2009-01-04 05:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Grow the f**k up, or leave, please.

The problem is that the majority of the time, it isn't the ones that need to grow up that are leaving.  This is one of many factors that are causing desertion and that in itself is sad.

by selfevident 2009-01-04 02:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Grow the f**k up, or leave, please.

Yup. I can't even count how many strong posters have gotten so annoyed from being insulted, offended and having to argue all the time that they just said, "That's it, I'm done."

by vcalzone 2009-01-04 02:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Grow the f**k up, or leave, please.

A good site would be one that better utilized self-moderation. Or selected a few posters who volunteered to help with moderation but wouldn't show up on the front page. There are many ways to keep a site clean that don't cost money.

by vcalzone 2009-01-04 02:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Grow the f**k up, or leave, please.

The primaries caused a lot of that.   Brutal brutal stuff.  And the lack of moderation seemed far worse then than now.

by yitbos96bb 2009-01-05 04:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Grow the f**k up, or leave, please.

During the primaries this site was MUCH more heavily moderated.  It wasn't lack of moderation, it was misdirected moderation.

I only mention this because that would seem to wipe out the idea that people are too busy to moderate the site now that it's got about 1/100th of the traffic.

by Jess81 2009-01-05 05:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Grow the f**k up, or leave, please.

Typical male response.

by QTG 2009-01-04 03:59AM | 0 recs
Why don't you start the trend

by editing your attention getting, "look at me, look at me", profanity laced title?

by kosnomore 2009-01-04 04:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Why don't you start the trend

I know when I find myself agreeing with kosnomore that there is a problem...

by JDF 2009-01-04 07:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Why don't you start the trend

We're through the looking glass here, people!

by fogiv 2009-01-04 05:01PM | 0 recs
i don't know bob...

im of both minds on this one.  up until a few weeks ago i was right there with you.  but really - its gotten out of control.

watch ads, gaming, nonsensical crap that sits unfettered without the admin blinking...

but i see your point about this being like public space.  hey - i don't litter either...

by canadian gal 2009-01-04 07:54AM | 0 recs
But that's just it...

It doesn't help to "shame rec" troll diaries, as all that does is knock good diaries off the Rec List. It doesn't help to "troll hunt" to the point of calling respected front-pagers "PUMAs", as all that does is make it look like a witch hunt. It doesn't help to "troll hunt" to the point of actually worsening the problem in this community.

That's how I see it, and that's why I hope more folks here take Bob's advice.

by atdleft 2009-01-04 11:23AM | 0 recs
I agree with you on this one. There are few

diaries which are plain trash like ones peddling pirated wares had been allowed on this blog. Despite the requests made to the powers to be, those hadn't been deleted. However I like the MyDD approach as a public square where everybody is allowed to scream....

by louisprandtl 2009-01-04 12:49PM | 0 recs
Here are the guidelines for the MyDD community:

   * * Users who are bashing or attacking any other user on the site, including authors of diaries and frontpage postings, will be banned. Candidates and politicians are fair game (but that doesn't mean you can use inflammatory language against candidates).

   * * Post as many comments as you like, but users that post comments that do nothing but name-call, denigrate the site users, or make inflammatory remarks will either be warned, or outright banned.

   * * Titles of diaries should not be inflammatory, call out other users or the site, and will be deleted if not edited out, and the user banned.

   * * Post only 1-2 diaries per day. No single or two-line diaries--if it's a comment, put it in a comment thread. Don't clutter the diaries with foolish commentary on MyDD itself. Do not create a diary that attacks another user.

   * * Do not troll rate (rating as 1) another user's comment unless it is a comment that is an attack on another user. Do not hide (rating as 0) a comment unless it is an abuse of the guidelines. Abusing this privilege will result in all your ratings being erased and/or getting a warning, or being banned.

   * * 'Trusted users' are those users that have 'mojo' and are able to 'review hidden comments' and can rate any of those posts hidden by a '0' ranking. If a trusted user deems the post should not be hidden, they can 'rescue' the post with a '1' rating.

   * * Users who are excessively bashing the Democratic Party, or being Republican trolls, will be banned.

   * * Users who are spaming the site with unrelated material or the like will be banned.

The administrating of MyDD is a group effort, and unfortunately we will fail to have the time to notice every case of abuse of the guidelines.

by the national gadfly 2009-01-04 10:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Here are the guidelines for

Except these seem to not be enforced by administrators of the site very often, which is the problem... THe ratings SHOULD be a way to do it, but there isn't a clear cut system of what is and isn't acceptable to troll rate.  

by yitbos96bb 2009-01-05 04:48AM | 0 recs
It was interesting to me when I read it...

Because the rules state that the moderation is done by the administrators and the community.  There is also an 'out clause' stating that stuff will be missed.  So, either the admins will moderate or the community will or it won't get done at all.

Pretty all-encompassing.  I'm in sales, so I can appreciate leaving some 'wiggle room' and creating language that is broad.  Still, this seems like it could be reined in a bit.

I like your idea below, a great deal.

-gadfly

by the national gadfly 2009-01-05 05:34AM | 0 recs
You tell em Bob

Whiny miserable occultist monobrows. They just want an echo chamber of lock-stepped automatons. Tell them all to f**k off, and we'll be behind you Bob. All the way

by zerosomgame 2009-01-04 10:50AM | 0 recs
Re: You tell em Bob

zerosUmgame?

Are you fucking kidding me?

by spacemanspiff 2009-01-04 03:09PM | 0 recs
Re: You tell em Bob

Dude(tte), are you high?

by rfahey22 2009-01-04 05:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Grow the f**k up, or leave, please.

Not sure which issue prompted this, but you bring up some good points...

That being said, moderation (more than what is currently in place) is on many sites without increasing the costs involved.   For example, Bowers excerised a LOT of moderating ability on the site when he was on here still...   I thinkfor some of us old timers, we remember that (I didn't find out it was pretty much just him until 6 months after he left).  

The best solution for Mydd is the same solution that is used by many many many forums out there...  Volunteer moderation by a few trusted users.  Its cheap and it  works.  If you have 10-15 trusted users with this ability... to delete troll diaries or exercise the banhammer, it would help immensly.  THere are several users I could see who whould be good in this role.... Desmoinesdem is one... Shaun Appleby is another.     People who aren't hotheaded and react emotionally (like myself who would be terrible in that position).    

by yitbos96bb 2009-01-05 04:42AM | 0 recs

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