What about Gas

I know what you're thinking: Oh, God, another blog about gas.

However, I have been disappointed by all the ideological arguments about this topic, with very little in the way of data, facts, or reason.  I am not an economist, but I am a financial analyst who shares responsibility for managing a $750 million portfolio at a private, non-profit foundation.  So crunching economic data is not unfamiliar to me.  My purpose in this piece is not to advocate for or against the tax, although I may let an opinion out here and there.

Rather, I would like to present you with some data, so that you can put these rampant talking points into the context of real facts.  Please be warned: this is a long, substantive document.  It will be boring to anyone who insists only on spin and drama.

Part I: Refuting the Talking Points

The main talking points used against the gas tax holiday go something like this: lowering the price will increase demand, which is bad for the environment.  Moreover, since supply is fixed, the price will be driven right back up again.  Essentially you have just taken money from the government and given it to Big Oil.

Is it true?

In order to answer that question, we must test two assertions: (a) consumption of gasoline responds to short-term changes in price, and (b) supply of gasoline does not.

I conducted my inquiry at the Department of Energy's Information Administration.  Because we are discussing small, short-term changes in price, I compiled monthly data for the past twelve months.  Specifically, I measured actual supply and actual sales of motor-grade gasoline, expressed in thousands-of-gallons-per-day.  I cross-tabulated this with average retail price of gasoline, to construct a classic supply-and-demand model.

Looking over the data, it quickly becomes apparently that neither of these talking points holds true.  Supply fluctuates by as much as 34,000,000 million gallons per day, not exactly something one would consider "static".  As well, neither supply nor demand seem to respond predictably to price.  For example, from June to July, price decreased by 9 cents, or 3%.  According to talking points, demand should have gone up, right?  Wrong.  Consumption actually decreased by 2%.

A picture is worth a thousand words, so here is a graphical representation of the short-term supply and demand of gasoline.

Do you see a pattern?  It not, you're in good company.  I attempted to perform several regression analyses on these data points.  I tried using linear, logarithmic, polynomial and exponential models.  The highest R2 I could get was 0.0911.  All of this is a fancy way of stating what is obvious to your eye: there is no pattern.  Neither supply nor demand for gasoline could be explained as a function of price, in the short-term.

Here's the key takeaway folks: there is no reason to believe that lowering the price of gasoline by 18 cents for three months would have any impact on consumption whatsoever. More likely, short-term fluctuations are explained by seasonal travel, changes in business needs, and things of this nature.

But what about over the long-run?  Looking over the span of several years, a different story is told.

As you can see from this chart, demand continued to rise for four straight years, despite the fact that the price at the pump was beginning to skyrocket.  But our appetite for petro-products was eventually curbed.  You could think of it as a highly delayed reaction to changes in price.  Let's look at the graph.

I was able to build an accurate model, but only by ignoring price, and simply expressing demand as a function of time.  The R2 value indicates that my model explains 92% of the variation in demand.  But how good of a predictor is it?  I decided to put it to the test, and extend the trendline to 2008.  According to the model, consumption should average around 370,000,000 gallons per day in 2008.  During February 2008, when consumption is generally below average, the actual number was 363,500,000.  Less than a 2% margin of error (better than any poll!) from a model that does not in any way incorporate price.  Not bad, eh?

The takeaway this time: the market can adapt to changes in the price of gasoline, but it takes a long time. Think of it like a big ocean liner.  These things cannot turn on a dime, folks, and neither can the market for gasoline.  It takes a long period of time - laws passed to change fuel efficiency, consumers purchasing smaller and more efficient vehicles, new public transportation infrastructure - changes that cannot possibly occur in the span of three months - before consumption of a commodity like gasoline actually changes.

Part II: Framing the Debate Correctly

With the most common talking points refuted, we can now move on to another criticism of the tax holiday: it just won't add up.  It has been estimated that the average American will save about 30 bucks, when all is said and done, and that just doesn't seem like a lot.

However, lowering the price at the pump doesn't just save you money when you fill 'er up.  Gasoline is a significant driver of transportation cost - a hidden tax assessed on nearly every good and service you will ever buy.  Therefore, it is more constructive to look at this as a second stimulus package, on the aggregate level.  Assuming an average of 370,000,000 gallons per day, at 18.4 cents per gallon, the stimulus effect would be $6 billion over three months.  By contrast, the rebate checks in the first stimulus package were estimated to total approximately $103 billion.  So, relatively speaking, it is fair to describe it as a modest plan.

Consider this, though - the federal gas tax is perhaps one of the most regressive taxes in our country.  Low-to-middle income families spend a much higher portion of their earnings on gasoline than their wealthy counterparts.  In that sense, slashing the tax, even temporarily, is the progressive thing to do.  More food for thought - if our longterm objective is to reduce gasoline consumption, we had better start thinking of alternate ways to fill the coffers of our Highway Trust Fund, because even at the peak of its revenue, there still isn't enough money in there.

Part III: Diarist's Thoughts

As we have seen, the talking points used against the tax holiday are largely false.  As to the worry that Oil companies might just ramp up their price in response to the tax holiday, the very nature of a windfall profits tax creates a strong incentive against that behavior.

But does that mean the tax holiday is a good idea?

The truth is - despite all the hooplah - it is a small idea, economically speaking.  It essentially amounts to adding a few more points onto the first stimulus package.  Then again, no one ever complained about minor comforts.  After all, the tax holiday has the virtue of being a progressive action, and it implicitly targets those most in need of a little relief right now.  As to the question, why package it this way, instead of just writing another check?  Simply put - this is a very attractive package to the consumers these politicians have in mind.

All three candidates have put forth comprehensive plans to address matters of energy and environment.  It is ironic that this little cul-de-sac of an issue turned out to be the most contentious.

Update! Part IV: Economists begin to acknowledge debate

Recently, William J. Polley blogged about the flawed assumptions that demand is elastic (it is not) and supply is inelastic (it is not). In his piece, he notes that "Supply may be relatively fixed in the summer, but if short run demand is also inelastic, it is not a foregone conclusion that the suppliers will get all the benefit." He goes on:

We take as one of our stylized facts that gasoline demand is fairly inelastic in the very short run. A 10% change in gas prices this month will probably not cause me to change my driving habits much. A permanent 10% increase will cause me to change my habits more over time. The federal excise tax of 18.4 cents is roughly 5% of the going price. In fact, I think we can expect that the fluctuations in price over the summer due to refinery maintenance, hurricanes, pipeline problems, etc. could be as large or larger in magnitude. I wouldn't expect it to change driving habits much at all. In other words, the demand is inelastic. Not perfectly inelastic, but quite inelastic.

About supply, he observes:

Krugman suggests that the supply is practically fixed. If he's right in the extreme case (i.e. perfectly inelastic supply) then the game's over. The oil companies get all the benefit. But that's probably not the case either. A commenter at Angry Bear posts a link to the ever useful Energy Information Administration, or EIA. They point out in a recent newsletter that gasoline inventories are currently at the high end of the normal range. Given that production of the summer formulations has probably not fully ramped up yet, they probably have a little more wiggle room than Krugman is assuming.

The rub? According to this report from the Department of Energy, "gasoline inventories are currently still in the upper half of the 5-year average range for this time of year." In other words, there is some excess supply right now.

Here's the real kicker - the most recent academic study on federal gasoline tax found that "The federal specific gasoline tax falls equally on consumers and wholesalers." What this means is that, if price were to increase, it would likely not increase by more than 9.2% (note that this study had no reason to consider the effects of an excess profits tax into the equation - I believe it provides a strong disincentive toward continued price gouging). There would still be net savings to consumers. Keep in mind that this isn't just about what you save at the pump - but reduced transportation costs, which can affect many other commodities.

Here is another economist who points out that, because demand is inelastic in the short-run, tax incidence is likely to be 50/50.

Tags: gas tax Obama Clinton (all tags)

Comments

85 Comments

Tip Jar

Too much number-crunching for a Saturday - please forgive any typo's for now.  My eyes need a break.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 02:32PM | 0 recs
Recced

and nicely expressed !!

by SevenStrings 2008-05-03 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Recced

Thanks.  Judging from the Obamite response - angry personal attacks coupled with a complete inability to read or refute the arugment on its merits - I just might be onto something.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 03:05PM | 0 recs
You did all that ...

..for 30 bucks??

by hootie4170 2008-05-03 02:48PM | 0 recs
Is that the hourly or per-diary?

by dystopianfuturetoday 2008-05-03 02:51PM | 0 recs
Re: You did all that ...

Hey, thirty bucks will get you a 1/2 tank of gas ~ don't knock it!

by Mags 2008-05-03 03:10PM | 0 recs
For 30 bucks?

Actually, no, since there's no mechanism to pass the savings on to the consumer.  

For example, when they tried this in IL only about 3/5 of the tax reduction ever made it to the consumer, the rest went to the oil companies.  

I'm not sure why Hillary says she is against tax breaks and subsidies for oil companies on one day, and then proposes this idiotic tax holiday the next.

by map 2008-05-03 03:25PM | 0 recs
Re: For 30 bucks?

Perhaps they did it wrong in Illinois?  I'm just sayin....

And despite what you may have heard, the proposed tax holiday is not:

 "tax breaks and subsidies for oil companies"  

by Mags 2008-05-03 03:29PM | 0 recs
Re: For 30 bucks?

Since there isn't a mechanism to get the savings to the consumer the oil company can just keep the money.

by map 2008-05-03 04:30PM | 0 recs
Re: For 30 bucks?

The mechanism is the windfall profits tax, through which you can tax up to 100% on income past the threshold you establish.  Big Oil would literally get zero from a price increase.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 04:37PM | 0 recs
Ingenious
I actually feel stupider having read all that.
Your diary is proof of what my mother has been saying; no matter how you try, you can't sugar coat a turd.
The Gas Tax Holiday is a bad idea from the Republican play book, that gives oil corporations huge tax breaks at the expense of the national treasury, which is supported by none of the economic experts, and doesn't address the long term problem that can only be solved with more fuel efficiency and alternative sources.
Do you really want to take a $21 a month bribe in exchange for 6 month of Republican hatched supply side economics?  
by Otaku Saru 2008-05-03 02:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Ingenious

Please indicate any errors you found in my math.  Or perhaps you could explain why your anger should be considered more valid than statistical data from the Department of Energy.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 03:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Ingenious

Do you even know what you are talking about?  How does imposing a windfall tax on the oil companies equate to giving them a 'huge tax break"?

And where did you get this talking point:

"...6 month of Republican hatched supply side economics."?

by Mags 2008-05-03 03:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Ingenious

The funny thing about windfall taxes is that they will just pass the cost on to the consumers in the form of higher prices.

by Why Not 2008-05-03 03:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Ingenious

Really?  So we do nothing ~ and the prices will keep going up regardless...I guess there is no hope!  

by Mags 2008-05-03 03:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Ingenious

You may want to let Barack Obama know that.  He plans to finance several of his energy initiatives using a Windfall Profits Tax.

But I'm sure you knew that - surely an Obama supporter knows more about his plans than I do, yes?

by bobbank 2008-05-03 03:35PM | 0 recs
The purpose of the Gas Tax Holiday
Is to convince consumers that they will save money without a Gas Tax. If you want to get rid of the 18 cent per gallon tax that is charged to the oil corporations for every gallon of gas they sell (regardless of who they sell it to) for 6 months, then why not get rid of the Gas Tax altogether?
The Plan from pro=corporation Republicans is to have the Gas Tax Holiday end right before the November elections, so that the voters will demand that the tax cuts be permanent.
Assuming that Hillary beats the odds and get elected, she would have no choice but to make the Gas Tax cut permanent, or she will look like tax and spend liberal, or a flip flopper having supported the Gas Tax Holiday but not having supported the elimination of the Gas Tax altogether.
If you want to get rid of Gas tax, then just say so, but personally I am not in favor of giving the corporations and the oil industry a huge Tax break.
Personally I am buying a more fuel efficient car, investing in Green industries, and finding ways to decrease my CO2 foot print. Cutting the Gas Tax will only encourage more consumption of gas and is a corporation's dream come true.
by Otaku Saru 2008-05-03 04:18PM | 0 recs
Re: The purpose of the Gas Tax Holiday

Hillary plans to rollback the Bush-Cheny taxbreaks to Big Oil, handouts that Barack helped pass into law when he voted for that bill in 2005.  Both candidates plan to pursue a windfall profits tax in addition to that.

How does any of this = a tax break?

Maybe you are confused about where that tax goes - the federal gas tax is paid by consumers and goes to the federal government.  It has nothing to do with Big Oil companies.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 04:35PM | 0 recs
So
Are you advocating eliminating the Gas Tax all together?
I am against eliminating the Gas Tax, therefore I am against the Gas Tax Holiday, which is a prelude to eliminating the Gas Tax.
Be honest about who you are.
I'm green, your not.
by Otaku Saru 2008-05-03 04:40PM | 0 recs
Re: So

Eventually we will need to figure out another way to pay for our Highway Trust Fund, that's for sure.  I purposely did not advocate anything in my diary - other than to present people with facts so they can make a more informed decision.

What does the gas tax have to do with being green?

by bobbank 2008-05-03 04:54PM | 0 recs
So, again!
Are you in favor of eliminating the Gas Tax altogether, or not?
You still didn't answer that question.
I am not in favor of anything that gives the oil industry a break, which is exactly what the Tax Holiday does, whether you want to admit it or not.
How is Hillary going to oppose eliminating the Gas Tax altogether if she was in favor of the Gas Tax Holiday?
This was a Republican trap, and Hillary dove straight into it.
by Otaku Saru 2008-05-03 05:04PM | 0 recs
Re: So, again!

Can you explain how rolling back the Bush-Cheney tax cuts that Barack voted for and enacting a windfall profits means giving them a break?

They are about to be taxed out the wazoo.

I think you still don't understand that they don't pay the gas tax - we do.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 05:26PM | 0 recs
Are you
or are you not in favor of eliminating the Gas Tax altogether?
Just answer the new Diary I just submitted.
by Otaku Saru 2008-05-03 05:56PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

You should have just stoped with " I am not an economist", and saved us all the time.

by venician 2008-05-03 02:52PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Thank you for the contructive and thoughtful feedback.  I welcome any tips from a financial guru such as yourself.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 03:04PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Your welcome. And I trust the experts on this issue, not some lay man.

by venician 2008-05-03 03:27PM | 0 recs
My apologies but Bob here was being

humble. A Financial Analyst normally has quite a good background in Economics.

by louisprandtl 2008-05-03 05:02PM | 0 recs
Re: My apologies but Bob here was being

yeah well not this one

maybe by financial analyst he means he just looks at money and can tell his parents what president is on it  

by wellinformed 2008-05-03 09:56PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Excellent analysis.  

by ChitownDenny 2008-05-03 03:06PM | 0 recs
YOU SEEM LIKE A SMART PERSON!
I am surprised you actually drank this Republican cool-aid.
The Gas Tax Holiday, which is a prelude to eliminating the Gas Tax altogether, is an all around bad idea that global-warming-denying corporations and oil industry want.
And you as a progressive Democrat should know that.
by Otaku Saru 2008-05-03 04:36PM | 0 recs
Re: YOU SEEM LIKE A SMART PERSON!

Now I can see from this post that you are confused.

So, just to clear it up for you again - the federal gas tax is something we pay, not oil companies.  And the revenue goes to the government, not oil companies.  It has nothing to do with them.

I was an otaku once so I am trying to be nice. :)

by bobbank 2008-05-03 04:38PM | 0 recs
If you are in favor
of the Gas Tax Holiday, then why are you not in favor of eliminate the Gas Tax altogether? Or are you in favr of eliminating the Gas Tax?
I am in favor of keeping the Gas Tax, so therefore I am against the Gas Tax Holiday.
by Otaku Saru 2008-05-03 04:44PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Well done, Bobbank!  I always find your diaries and comments to be well thought out, insightful, and reality based.  Please continue!

by Mags 2008-05-03 03:08PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Thank you both.  I felt people were getting a lot of misinformation, but instead of just arguing back and forth, I wanted to provide real facts.  So, although I make a case that Hillary's plan is not a bad idea, I tried not to come across as pushing for it because my main goal was just to help inform people.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 03:12PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Great analysis. Send this to both campaigns and also mail it to Politico and Time. They sometimes go for indepth analysis rather than hyperbole.

by Sandeep 2008-05-03 03:19PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

yes I agree send this to everybody you can

including Hillary's campaign this will help them out so much

you know what they may even give you a job as the only person that thinks this is a good idea

wow Bobbank you are the Hillary campaingns savior

they were just complaining that the only person they can find that supports Hillary on this was a SHELL LOBBYIST and he thought it is a great Idea
I mean come on why would he want to make big oil money  I bet he would want to stick it to the oil companies as bad as Hillary does  

Thats are girl she's a fighter taking on Big oil all by herself

elitist Obama does not want to save us $30 what a elitist jerk flip flopper who voted for it before
waaaah waahh  so what if did not work when he tried it in IL and voted to have it appealed he has the nerve to not try it again what a flip flopper he needs to stay the course  

by wellinformed 2008-05-03 03:40PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Please act like an adult.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 03:41PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

please answer my question instead of dancing around it

by wellinformed 2008-05-03 03:58PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

There was a question?  Please quote your post and show it to me.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Well said. Where was Obama supporters when he voted three times for a gas tax holiday in IL?

Contrary to what some of us may think I actually know people who would want the the tax break even if they were saving only $5.00. These folks are the working poor and every cent is important to them. It comes down to a matter of survival.

by LadyEagle 2008-05-03 03:16PM | 0 recs
thanks bob

So far the economists objections I've seen amount to "it won't make any difference in the long term." To which my response is "Duh."

A gas tax holiday properly paid for is progressive, temporary tax relief. It gives working people a little relief during the highest driving months.

Since Clinton has the most progressive energy policy of all three candidates for president, and since she is the only candidate with the judgment to have opposed Cheney's energy bill, I don't see a problem with her giving working people a little time to adapt as gas prices are rapidly escalating.

by souvarine 2008-05-03 03:19PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Did you correct for seasonal fluctuations in demand and detrend?

by Mandoliniment 2008-05-03 03:22PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Not in the short-term graph, and that was intentional.  Part of my point is that things like seasonal fluctuations are what drive changes in gas consumption in the short-term - not price.  (I did use a 12-month set to get the full cycle, though.)

If you look at my long-term analysis, it is by year, so in that case seasonal effects are properly mitigated.  In that set, you can still see that there is no direct correlation between the change in price that year, and the change in consumption - demand continued to rise even as prices did.

Smart question.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 03:31PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

But my question is this; Clinton and McCain are proposing this over the summer, because it is over the summer that prices are higher. Prices are higher in the summer months because of increased demand, and because refineries are maxed out. So including winter data is misleading because the economics are different in the winter, when refineries shift to making other petroleum products. The fate of a barrel of oil varies considerably over the year.

As for the detrending, US oil (and gasoline) consumption has risen 30% since 1990 (from your same data source); so if you're going to compare summer data from multiple years you'll have to correct for the long-term growth in consumption. Otherwise any price/demand correlation will be hidden in the noise.

by Mandoliniment 2008-05-03 03:47PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

But actually the data points do not show price being driven up in the summer.  It is true that April begins a period of generally higher consumption.  If you can show me some data showing that prices are higher in summer and lower in winter, over the past two years, I'd like to see it.

As for your suggestion to detrend, the proof is in the pudding.  My regression analysis predicted the 2008 consumption value to within 2%!  It was that accurate without even using price as a variable - your point about longterm trends in consumption only reinforces the conclusion I reached - that a three-month 18 cent price cut is not going to do jack to the consumption of gas.

I really appreciate the intelligent conversation by the way.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 04:16PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

hotlinked off the page you linked to.

Also from the page you linked to:

Seasonality in the demand for gasoline - When crude oil prices are stable, retail gasoline prices tend to gradually rise before and during the summer, when people drive more, and fall in the winter. Good weather and vacations cause U.S. summer gasoline demand to average about 5 percent higher than during the rest of the year. If crude oil prices remain unchanged, gasoline prices would typically increase by 10-20 cents from January to the summer.

Here's a presentation (.ppt) that suggests vehicle miles traveled has dropped 5% since 2003, based on price changes.

www.kevinmabe.com/files/econ-f/VMT_vs_Ga s_Prices.ppt

My point is that in systems as complex as this one it is not sufficient to simply plot price-vs-demand; the supply-demand curve only holds if all other factors are stationary, which they're not. And while I appreciate the work you've put into your analysis, I also think that when someone working (by their own admission) outside their area of expertise shows results that would overturn 2 centuries of economic theory, it's worth questioning whether they have, in fact, controlled for all the potential complications.

by Mandoliniment 2008-05-03 04:47PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

It is always worth questioning.  I should also note that you are free to help me out and do some of this analysis yourself.  I do not mind presenting a second analysis of demand, adjusted for seasonality and growth factor.

I will use the 5% decline you suggest, spread over the 12 months, and I will adjust for a 5% increase in demand during the summer.  I'm pretty confident we still won't see any correlation.  But it is an interesting exercise just the same.

Any other suggestions while I rebuild my model?

by bobbank 2008-05-03 05:55PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

I tried many different variations for growth / decay assumptions, and also tried a bunch of different takes on seasonality.  I could not get my R2 higher than 20% - which is still basically garbage.

I would like to have a more accurate approach to seasonality though.  If you have any links that would make it clear, I can plug that in.  That's the only thing that has any possibility of making my graph look like something other than buckshot.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 06:35PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Oh and I should also respond to your very condescending remark - I'm certainly not overturning two centuries of economic theory.  The notion of price elasticity of demand is well established, and gasoline is the textbook example of a good whose demand does not change appreciably in response to short-term changes in price.  My knowledge of economic theory was what prompted me to look at the facts.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 05:57PM | 0 recs
Your PPT link

Thanks for that link - I followed it closely right up until I got to the chart where he listed his seasonal coefficients.  I was hoping to borrow them but I didn't understand how those numbers factored into his equation (I mean: I understood generally but not specifically).

Anyway, that presentation is making the same point that I made to you in my diary.  Notice that for his model to work, he had to look over a span of four years.  Four years is very different from three months - people can buy smaller cars, cars can become more fuel efficient, someone can take a job closer to home, a new bus or train line can open up - those things can and do happen over four years.

Just to be clear: I am not arguing that price never impacts demand for gas.  I am arguing that demand for gas cannot respond to small, short-term changes in price.  Your source confirmed this when he said, on slide 13, that price was highly inelastic.  He used -0.06.

Let me put that in perspective.  Cutting the federal gas tax would lower prices by about 5%.  Assuming his elasticity coefficient were accurate, that would mean less than a third of a percentile increase in demand, and that is only over the longrun.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 06:33PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

I'm neither an economist nor an expert on gasoline, but I do know that in many states, the formula for gasoline is changed in the summer to reduce smog. As I understand it, this changes the price and the efficiency of the gasoline. I think these factors would need to be added to your analysis to make any sense of your 12-month data.

Also, since we know that over several years demand decreases when price increases, is it not also possible that demand decreases a few months after a price increase? This lag of a few months would not show up in your data (it would look like noise instead). And when the price is going up and down rapidly over the course of a year or two, it may also have a different effect than a single jump in price. I don't know what kind of analysis could take into effect lagging elasticity and rapid price fluctuation, but it would have to be a fairly complex model.

It would also seem that the number of weekends and holidays in any particular month must be factored into the analysis since driving behavior on weekends is significantly different than on workdays. And doesn't weather impact driving a lot too?

I think your analysis adds to the discussion, but I think it doesn't provide a definitive answer.

by RandomNonviolence 2008-05-04 07:06AM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Also, since we know that over several years demand decreases when price increases, is it not also possible that demand decreases a few months after a price increase? This lag of a few months would not show up in your data (it would look like noise instead). And when the price is going up and down rapidly over the course of a year or two, it may also have a different effect than a single jump in price. I don't know what kind of analysis could take into effect lagging elasticity and rapid price fluctuation, but it would have to be a fairly complex model.

This is a really good question.  I think I contributed to some confusion here by talking about a "delayed reaction" in my diary.  That is not actually what price elasticity means (even though it kind of sounds like it).  If the price-elasticity of demand is very low (inelastic), that doesn't mean that demand has a delayed response, it means demand has little or no response, ever.  However, sometimes the elasticity in the shortterm is different from the elasticity in the longterm.

Example - one of the main reasons consumption is beginning to decrease in the U.S. is because people are chosing to buy smaller and more efficient cars.  That is a decision you can make every 3 to 10 years.  And you wouldn't make that decision because gas went up by 10 cents last month.  You would make that decision if gas prices tripled over the past five years, though.  See the difference?

Here's another example - I commute to work everyday.  When I wake up in the morning, I do not check the price of gas and, seeing that it is 10 cents lower, decide to take a longer and more scenic route.  This simply isn't how people think about this commodity.  However - knowing that gas prices are very expensive, I chose to rent an apartment very close to my job in the suburbs, instead of living closer to the city (which I would otherwise prefer).  Again, that's not a decision I make every few weeks - it is a longterm decision that can be impacted by huge changes in price.

So you just need to run all this by your common sense and you can see why gasoline is so inelastic in the short-run.  But, like I said, this doesn't mean "delayed reaction" - it means "little or no reaction, period."  When you have HUGE changes in price (and we're talking like 200% delta in this case), over a sustained period of time, then you will start to see SMALL changes in demand (I think it has cut demand by something like 3-5%?).

by bobbank 2008-05-04 07:31AM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

On your other points, I think you are just reinforcing how unimportant price is, relative to all these other facts, in the short-term.

The one thing I will say I am less-than-comfortable with, as far as my analysis, is that I do not think I have accounted for seasonality in the most accurate fashion.  (Actually the numbers I published have no adjustment - but I have been working on additional models offline that do.)  Based on DoE information, I tried adjusting for a 5% increase in gas demand over the summer.  I also tried making a smooth curve where the demand gradually increases to 5%, then goes back down.  I tried an S-shape where demand was extra low in Feb.

None of these things ever resulted in any more of a pattern emerging, demand-side.  But I would still like to feel that I had the most accurate coefficients for seasonality factored in, and I don't feel that way right now.

by bobbank 2008-05-04 07:34AM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

ok I read  the whole thing

1. It did not answer how will it prevent the Oil companies from raising the price to make up the difference?

2. as far as the windfall profits tax that is supposed to pay for the Highway fund how can it also afford to invest in renewable energy research?

I do agree with one thing you are no economist
thats for sure because you will be the first one ever!! to think this is a good idea. and your model is Bogus  get a model that reflects a tax Holiday. the reason why it will increase consumption is in your on Diary.
this is presented as a little break like you say therefore its encouraging more driving thus increasing demand raising prices

so is this Diary a attempt to get me to believe you that its a good idea over every REAL economist including the ones that are for Hillary pan as a bad Idea ?

the best Idea  is to raise gas tax I know it sucks ( i commute 120mi a day) but it will decrease demand and have more money to invest in renewable energy  

by wellinformed 2008-05-03 03:32PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

1. It did answer that.  Would you like to review how a windfall profits tax actually works?

2. Hillary has proposed that the Windfall profits tax could be used to pay for this tax relief.  The revenues from such a tax would likely exceed the 6 billion cost of this stimulus package, so actually it is a net benefit to the Highway Trust Fund.  The Strategic Energy Fund is financed by rolling back all the tax cuts that Barack voted for in the Bush-Cheney energy bill. =)

The rest of your post was rather nonsense, but I wanted to answer your questions.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 03:41PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

yes explain to me how the windfall profit tax works

remember the gas tax is 18 cents  which was to go
to the Highway fund

but please link me to the strategic energy fund that will be financed  by rolling back all the tax cuts  on the cheney energy bill

I did not see that on Hillary's gas tax proposal  

by wellinformed 2008-05-03 04:03PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Sure -

Windfall profits works like an excise tax.  You pick a threshold and you tax heavy (up to 100%) on income over that threshold.  So, let's say Oil Company made $10 billion in 2006, $11 billion in 2007, but all of a sudden, this year they make $50 billion.  Well we would ask them - why did you make so much more?  New product?  New market?  If there is no good answer, we say - ok, you're not fooling me.  You're ripping people off and you've got to pay that back now.  So we might say anything over $20 billion we are taking at 100%.

Did you know, Exxon Mobil all by itself made over $40 BILLION last year?  (Holy cow!)  That's just one company; there are others.  So we can easily come up with the $6 billion we need for this program, by digging into some of that excess profit they've taken from us.

The strategic energy fund is a core piece of Hillary's plan, and you can find it here.

Here's the part you are asking about:

Creating a $50 Billion Strategic Energy Fund and Demand that Oil Companies Invest in Clean Energy - In 2005, Exxon Mobil's CEO told Congress that his company's investment in alternative energy technologies over the prior decade was "negligible." Hillary believes it is time for oil companies to do their share in funding clean energy technologies. She would give oil companies a choice: invest more in renewable energy technology or pay into a Strategic Energy Fund. The Strategic Energy Fund would also eliminate oil company tax breaks and make sure that oil companies pay their fair share in royalties when drilling on public lands. This fund would jumpstart a clean energy future by injecting $50 billion over ten years into research, development and deployment of renewable energy, energy efficiency, clean coal technology, ethanol and other homegrown biofuels.

I believe Obama has a similar idea, but I don't think he is as specific about how he will pay for it (anyone can correct me - feel free).

by bobbank 2008-05-03 04:50PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

I hate numbers if only because they force me to use parts of my brain that are lazy. I found your analysis insightful and beneficial. What I noticed from your graphs was that although there has been an increased demand for fuel for the past 5 years, that increase has not been that significant in relation to the increase in the price of fuel. You showed clearly that the two are not necessarily intertwined.

I also found your description of how the higher prices of fuel disproportionately hurt the mid to lower financial classes very telling. For instance, a person making the minimum wage of $5.85 per hour would spend 63% of their hourly wage to purchase a single gallon of fuel at $3.70 per gallon. On the face of it this is outrageous.

It used to be that our Democratic party stood for the less fortunate, the left behind or left out. This new elitist so-called progressive Democratic party is nothing I recognize. It seems like a more trendy version of the Republican party.

You have proven conclusively that the price of fuel is not a direct correlation between supply and demand that these multitude of fools expound. It only takes a small amount of intelligence to recognize that the price of fuel is determined by speculators and has nothing to do with actual need or capacity.

by Pagan Power 2008-05-03 03:49PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Thank you.  Just to clarify, after you've filtered for a bunch of stuff, you can see a correlation between price and demand, but only over the longrun (large changes in price over several years).  My point is to refute specifically the idea that a 5% price cut for 3 months would do anything to increase demand - it won't.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 06:40PM | 0 recs
Props for the analysis

The reason I consider it pandering is because anyone who looks at this issue with even the slightest bit of objectivity will admit that the chances of a windfalls profit tax being passed is as close to zero as you can get. It will not be even considered. And even if it's brought up, 60 votes do not exist in the Senate to pass it.  

Now, I commend you for taking all the time to do this analysis and I wish I were competent in economic analysis so that I could critique it with any sense of confidence. But the one thing that makes me think that there may be some holes in your analysis is that this seems to be one of the few economic/financial issues that economists on both sides of the political spectrum seem to agree on.

When you have Paul Krugman and the Heritage Foundation (and everyone in between) coming to the same conclusion, then I will take their word over anyone else's.

One of the issues that I haven't heard anyone mention is that the vast majority (over 80%) of the gasoline that is sold daily is done so at convenience stations. This is not being sold/purchased directly from the oil companies. There is no guarantee that any savings will be passed on to the customer. The service stations are eventually the people who set the price of gasoline.    

by highgrade 2008-05-03 04:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Props for the analysis

One of the problems that Barack has, politically speaking, is that he cannot use the argument you just used (that a Windfall Profits tax is unlikely to pass) because he also plans to use it to pay for some of his energy initiatives.  Practically speaking I agree it seems like a longshot - though not out of the question and not without historical precident.  But if we want to criticize one candidate for paying for an idea with the WPT then we would have to criticize them both.

I do think it should be pursued, though.  Even if it does not pass, a reasonably close call will send the right message to Big Oil not to push their luck.  In that sense I would not discourage either candidate from trying - and for talking about what they would do with that money.

As far as all these economists signing a petition - you have to admit it seems like an odd stunt.  After 7 years of gross fiscal irresponsibility, this is what they choose to sign a petition about?  A $6 billion pet project?  It really makes no sense to me.

I have to tell you, the whole reason I launched into this analysis in the first place is because of what I learned in Economics 101 from a Stiglitz textbook - demand for gasoline is very inelastic with regards to price.  So when I saw him on that petition I thought: did the entire ecnomic theory get revised in the past 10 years?  That's why I looked into the data for myself - but sure enough the data matches what I learned in college - the price of gasoline does not significantly influence demand in the short-run.

I don't blame you for doubting me by default - I would if I were in your shoes.  To be honest I would love to have someone explain why what I've said is false.  I am feeling like a voice in the wilderness here.

Could you elaborate on the convenience stations point?

by bobbank 2008-05-03 05:44PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Too much numbers but the topic is very important.

The average price of regular gas where I live is 4.00. The cheapest I can find is 3.79 (at Valero or ARCO). I drive 46 miles daily to work...so I welcome a gas tax holiday.

The high gas prices is not due to supply and demand.  We are at the mercy of the OPEC. Americans needs to find an alternative source of fuel so we don't have to rely on these countries. We must urge Congress to do their job.. and find a solution asap!

All the more reason we need Hillary as our President for her plan on energy independence, AT THE SAME time protecting our environment.

by SHIBAM8P 2008-05-03 04:40PM | 0 recs
Gas Tax Holiday?
Why not eliminate the Gas Tax altogether? That question will get asked of Clinton in the debates, if she beats the odds and wins the nomination.
Eliminating the Gas Tax will only encourage more gas consumption at a time when we desperately need more emphasis on alternative sources.
Eliminating the Gas Tax will only make us more dependent on Foreign oil. If you want to save money on gas, buy a more fuel efficient car, invest in green industry, hang your laundry to dry during the summer months, install solar panels (and collect the tax credit), and etc.
There are a lot of good idea to make America more energy independent, but eliminating the Gas Tax is not one of them.
Every progressive Democrat knows that.
by Otaku Saru 2008-05-03 04:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Gas Tax Holiday?

Bad logic doesn't become good if you keep repeating it over and over again.  If you're not going to read my responses anyway, I don't see much point in continuing to give you the courtesy of a reply.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 05:59PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Great diary, and highly recommended.

The Obama campaign has made it increasingly clear that they're interested in making this issue bigger then it really is, possibly to draw attention away from the Rev. Wright issue.  Unfortunately for them, they're on the losing side of it, as well.

The truth is that we need to do a lot about energy costs.  This helps the poorest members of our society immediately, addressing the cost of gas in the most direct way that the federal government can.  Hillary Clinton has not argued in support of the cut without the windfall taxes, so to hold that against her is a moot point.  This is not the only thing we can do and it's not the only thing we will do, but it's one way to help out Americans who are really suffering at the pump.  An extra $30 a month is a lot when you only make $7.00 an hour.

This is not a bad idea, as HRC proposes it it's not economically unsound, and Barack Obama seems to be arguing against change in this case.  Not a good issue for the Obama camp all around, and you can see it in their responses in this thread.

by hornplayer 2008-05-03 05:28PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Thanks.

And yes, that's how I view it.  It is not economically unsound, but neither is it a huge or dramatic plan.  It is a minor form of relief and it has set the stage for our two candidate to engage in a very interesting wrestling match.

by bobbank 2008-05-03 06:37PM | 0 recs
So glad to see this...

...but, I definitely needed to have paid more attention in economics class.  This short-term gas tax holiday didn't strike me as a terrible idea when I first heard it, but the arguments against it seemed knowledgeable.  I appreciate that you've crunched the numbers and  have provided some perspective.  I will say pennies do count, especially for people whose real wages have stayed static, while consumer prices have increased.

by TinaH1963 2008-05-05 10:55AM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Congratulations and thank you to the diarist who put a lot of careful thought and analysis into providing a fresh view on this topic.  And congratulations and thank you to the commenters who are either in favor or opposed to a gas tax holiday (and the candidates that support or oppose it) but who nevertheless took the time to offer interesting critiques or questions.

As for those people who chose to respond by insulting the diarist or the candidate he favors, why are you wasting your time and energy?  You are not convincing anybody with your insults.  My natural reaction, and I'm sure the reaction of many is, boy, I never want to support a canidate that THAT person supports.

by markjay 2008-05-03 07:24PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

This is a brilliant effort. Thanks to most responders for engaging in a great discussion. Many Americans are one paycheck away from homelessness. Many are actually homeless and/or unemployed. On behalf of all those Americans who do consider 30 bucks a big deal, I thank you. Political opposition to Clinton's plan is far different than opposition based on perceived merits or deficiencies. Of course no economist interested in speaking fees or tenure at a university or think tank, or a person connected to a campaign that bundles oil company executives money is going to support Clinton's plan - which is very different than either McCain's plan or any that Republicans have offered in the past.

What I find with this plan, and with Obama's deficient health care plan is that his most outspoken supporters claim that there is not the political will to have either of these plans passed anyway. Isn't that what "the problem" is in DC? Wasn't that what Obama's campaign was supposed to change? Yes, we can?

by Jeter 2008-05-03 10:57PM | 0 recs
Thank You!
You're one of the people who make me proud to be a Democrat. I hope you don't mind being grouped in with other Democrats who happen to support Clinton, Obama, Edwards or some of the other candidates for President (and all those running for House and Senate seats, state legislatures, etc.) I'm certain that with you it really is about progressive change that benefits all Americans, including the poor and working class families in this country. Amazing that you did all this for thirty bucks? Not among those I consider to be great Democrats who care about more than being elected, getting re-elected, or keeping that campaign cash flowing.
by Jeter 2008-05-03 11:10PM | 0 recs
Thank you for all the work

There are a few fundamental flaws in your argument however.

1) You are assuming that only the retail price of gasoline affects its supply or demand.  That simply isn't true.  As we saw after Katrina, a problem in the supply chain will make itself known at the pump. As we see every summer demand goes up because of the better weather and school vacations.

2) The demand for gasoline is not perfectly inelastic.  A one day 5% change in the price of gas will affect the demand.  The change in demand won't be 5% or even close but it will be enough to affect the price.  

3) There is a per unit price inflection point where the demand for gas will become more elastic.  For example, a 1% price increase when gasoline is at $2.50/gallon may not result in a decrease in demand but at $3.50/gallon a 1% price increase does result in a decrease in demand. So, somewhere between $2.50 and $3.50 per gallon there is a point at which the price elasticity of demand becomes more elastic. With gas prices at $3.66 per gallon we are at the point where the demand for gasoline has begun to be less elastic.

4) Inventories that are consistent with the 5 year average does not means supplies are up.  It means inventories are consistent with prior years.  

5)  If there is excess refining capacity somewhere in the world the person in charge of that refinery should be fired.  When prices are breaking records the last thing you want to do is produce less gas than possible.  

6) We have a fundamental agreement about the fact that refineries are at full capacity.  They can't produce more gas in a four week time period.

7) The economist you quote in the last paragraph said:

Assume both supply and demand are equally price inelastic, and this means the incidence of the Federal tax is about 50-50. Eliminating the gasoline tax for a short duration gives a windfall to both consumers and producers, of about equal proportion. (By the way, this conclusion is not true of state gasoline taxes; see Chouinard and Perloff (2004)). Now, giving a windfall to refiners and providers of feedstock for gasoline production might be a worthy goal, but I don't believe that was the stated goal. If those corporations get a windfall then either it gets stored away to be spent on investment in a new refinery or addition to an old refinery sometime in the future, or it leaks out to overseas oil producers.

Oh, and by the way, to the extent the lower price spurs gasoline consumption, this should increase the petroleum and petroleum products component of U.S. imports, and thence putting further upward pressure on the price of oil...

He is saying that half of the savings is going to go to oil companies and the lower price will increase consumption.  Those are the same basic arguments people who oppose the gas tax holiday are making.  

8.  There is no way a windfall profits tax is going to become law with Dubya in the WH.  As a result, any gas tax holiday has to be paid for by some other means.  

I think the biggest mistake you made is the first one.  There are a lot of factors involved in the supply and demand of a commodity besides the price.  The real argument is about what a 5% one day decrease in the price of gasoline will do to the demand during the summer driving months.  AFAIK, that has never happened before so there is no historical data to prove or disprove the argument one way or another.

Expert after expert has said that such a decrease will increase the consumption of gasoline.  The theories behind that argument are well known and have been discussed at length here and else where.    I don't think your data has addressed those theories.  

by Blue Neponset 2008-05-04 05:57AM | 0 recs
Welcome, Blue

1) You are assuming that only the retail price of gasoline affects its supply or demand.  That simply isn't true.  As we saw after Katrina, a problem in the supply chain will make itself known at the pump. As we see every summer demand goes up because of the better weather and school vacations.

When you talk about supply and demand models the Y-axis is price (P) and the X-axis is quantity (Q) - those aren't my rules and if you want to argue that point you have a few centuries worth of economists to do battle with. You give examples of things that can disrupt supply, which I would not dispute, but I would point out that they have absolutely nothing to do with the assertion that a 5% decrease in the price of gas for three months would increase demand. :)

2) The demand for gasoline is not perfectly inelastic.  A one day 5% change in the price of gas will affect the demand.  The change in demand won't be 5% or even close but it will be enough to affect the price.

How do you explain the contradiction between your belief and the data?  I promise you that if consumers see an 18 cent decrease in their gas costs, they won't suddenly plan cross-country road trips.  Nor will truckers decide to take less efficient routes.  Nor will anyone purposely move further away from work, or sell their Civic to get a Suburban.

3) There is a per unit price inflection point where the demand for gas will become more elastic.

Well, the demand curve is a curve, not a line, if that's what you are getting at.  Could you please provide some citation to support your assertion that we are at a particularly flat part of the curve?  All evidence indicates we are at a very steep part (ie, highly inelastic).

4) Inventories that are consistent with the 5 year average does not means supplies are up.

Actually what it says is that inventory is above average.  Above average means above average.  If you read the full link it also gives other indications of surplus production (see below).

5)  If there is excess refining capacity somewhere in the world the person in charge of that refinery should be fired.  When prices are breaking records the last thing you want to do is produce less gas than possible.

That is completely wrong and does betray a misunderstanding on your part.  Key concepts to look into: marginal revenue, and marginal cost.  Why do you think OPEC works so hard to keep production so far below capacity?  Why sell a million barrels at 20 bucks when you could sell a half a million at 100, etc.

6) We have a fundamental agreement about the fact that refineries are at full capacity.

Eh?  We don't have to guess.  According to the most recent report, refineries were operating at 97% capacity.  Demand has decreased since then (by 5% accordining to some sources) - the 5% figure is reasonable than refineries should be at around 92.2% capacity now.  But, at the very least, we know with certainty that they are not operating at full capacity.  This also does not take into account their inventories, which are above average at this time.

I love facts. :D

7) The economist you quote in the last paragraph said:

Read the part that you bolded carefully - "To the extent that lower price spurs gasoline consumption" - to the extent being the operative qualifier.

But you're right.  Economic studies suggest that consumers would receive half the savings.  Critics and pundits say they will receive none.  So the study does refute the critics.

The 50/50 tax incidence is based on the belief that both demand and supply are equally inelastic.  But since we now have evidence that supply is more elastic than it was in prior years (excess capacity, above average stocks), it would certainly be reasonable to conclude that consumers will get more than half the savings.

8.  There is no way a windfall profits tax is going to become law with Dubya in the WH.

Yes, well, this is an entirely different argument.  Aruging about its political feasibility is different from arguing about its merits.  We could have a seperate discussion about this but I'll just skip to my conclusion - I agree that Dubya will not let an excess profits tax pass, but I don't think that necessarily means the Dem candidate should assume he or she would not be able to make it pass when elected.

AFAIK, that has never happened before so there is no historical data to prove or disprove the argument one way or another.

Dude!

I know you read my piece and gave me very thoughtful feedback, but this shocks me, since I specifically wrote:

For example, from June to July, price decreased by 9 cents, or 3%.  According to talking points, demand should have gone up, right?  Wrong.  Consumption actually decreased by 2%.

You have the exact historical reference you need, since it looks like 9 cents might actually wind up being what gets passed to consumers.  Don't tell me there is no historical data when there is the most relevant case imaginable right there before you.

by bobbank 2008-05-04 08:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome, Blue

But you're right.  Economic studies suggest that consumers would receive half the savings.  Critics and pundits say they will receive none.  So the study does refute the critics.

So nine cents a gallon is worth all the trouble this will cause?  You can't retroactively tax the oil companies.  If the windfall profits tax is not in place by June 1 then we have to find another way to pay for the 18.4 cents per gallon no longer going into the Highway fund.  As a result, this tax holiday is more trouble that it is worth.

You have the exact historical reference you need, since it looks like 9 cents might actually wind up being what gets passed to consumers.  Don't tell me there is no historical data when there is the most relevant case imaginable right there before you.

A 2.6% change in the price over the course of a month isn't the same thing as a 5% change over the course of a day.  

by Blue Neponset 2008-05-04 10:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome, Blue

So nine cents a gallon is worth all the trouble this will cause?

Well the "trouble" seems mostly political - so that is really a question for Clinton's campaign folks.  She is taking some hits for this from some economists, but she is able to land some hits on Obama. From an economic perspective I don't see any "trouble".

You can't retroactively tax the oil companies.

That is exactly how income tax works.  In 2008 your taxes on 2007 are assessed.  In 2009, your taxes on 2008 are assessed.  So you're wrong here.

A 2.6% change in the price over the course of a month isn't the same thing as a 5% change over the course of a day.

You're right - the one-day change is even less likely to cause any change - unless you are willing to suggest that someone would trade their Surburban for a Prius based on a one day price increase of 18 cents?

by bobbank 2008-05-04 11:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome, Blue

Well the "trouble" seems mostly political - so that is really a question for Clinton's campaign folks.  She is taking some hits for this from some economists, but she is able to land some hits on Obama. From an economic perspective I don't see any "trouble".

The "trouble" comes from defunding the highway fund.  There is no way on God's green Earth that Dubya will sign a windfall profits tax.  Therefore we have to pay for this "holiday" by 1) increasing a different tax 2) reduce other spending or 3) borrow more money.  All of that trouble is not worth a 9 cent reduction in the price of gas.  

That is exactly how income tax works.  In 2008 your taxes on 2007 are assessed.  In 2009, your taxes on 2008 are assessed.  So you're wrong here.

No, it isn't.  You're 2008 income taxes are due as they are earned.  That is why people pay estimated taxes and have taxes withheld from their payroll.  

I will concede the point that the Federal Gov't can institute retroactive taxes.  It is illegal in Massachusetts but apparently not because of a Federal law.  

It won't matter much because there is no way a windfall profit tax will be passed in the next year.  As a result we have to pay for the gas tax holiday some other way.  

You're right - the one-day change is even less likely to cause any change - unless you are willing to suggest that someone would trade their Surburban for a Prius based on a one day price increase of 18 cents?

I used to think you knew what you were talking about but I was wrong.  Thanks for putting all the work in the diary and your comments, but we will never agree on this issue.   Let's just agree to disagree about this.  

by Blue Neponset 2008-05-04 12:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome, Blue

Hey thanks for throwing in a personal insult at the end there.  Real big of ya.

You are wrong on taxes.  This is something I know more about than you.  You are conflating personal and corporate, income and payroll, and also confusing procedural matters (estimated payments are to avoid penalties) with when the tax is actually assessed and due.

An excess profits tax on Big Oil 2008 would not be assessed until 2009, and that's simply all there is to it.  Any more ad hominem attacks from you?

by bobbank 2008-05-05 05:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome, Blue

So you are expert on everything but you don't know that penalties are to punish people for not complying with the law?  

I don't know you from Adam so don't take anything I say personally, but you are taking your argument to ridiculous lengths to avoid admitting you are wrong.  

by Blue Neponset 2008-05-05 08:02AM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome, Blue

Say, you know those rebate checks the government sent out?  That was a rebate of your 2007 income, right?  I'm just curious - do you understand that the law which enacted them was not passed until 2008?

That completely refutes this entire line of argument you have pursued.

I know that you cannot admit your error.  But I am comforted in the knowledge that reality happens to be in my corner on this one.

by bobbank 2008-05-05 09:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome, Blue

Give it up man.

I have already conceded the point that the federal gov't can pass retroactive tax increases.  

Free advice:

We learn more by being wrong about things than we do about being right.  Don't be so afraid to admit you are wrong.

by Blue Neponset 2008-05-05 09:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome, Blue

Did the government pass a law in 2008 effecting 2007 income tax?  Yes / No

by bobbank 2008-05-05 03:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome, Blue

No.  

The 2008 rebate is being paid in 2008.  It is calculated using 2007 numbers.  

by Blue Neponset 2008-05-06 07:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome, Blue

Can't take you seriously anymore.

You're wrong, you know it, and you're acting like a child now.

by bobbank 2008-05-06 07:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Welcome, Blue

It is you who is acting like a child.  Grown ups can disagree about things without pouting.  

The stimulus bill was passed in 2008.  The payments were made in 2008. How is that a retroactive tax?  

Also, I conceded the point that the Federal Gov't can pass a retroactive tax about four comments ago.  It is highly unlikely a Windfall Profits Tax passed a year from now will be retroactive to June 1st, but it is legal.  

by Blue Neponset 2008-05-06 08:35AM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Thank you -- I learned a lot. I still have a bunch of questions, but will ponder.

by BostonIndependent 2008-05-04 05:09PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Gas

Feel free to ask.

by bobbank 2008-05-05 05:15AM | 0 recs

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