Why it's a good thing Obama is not the presumptive Netroots candidate

Well, my title is pretty provocative. But, I hope you'll hear me out. Basically, what I'm trying to say is there is what we want: whoever our Netroots collective candidate is to win. And there is what is reality: that whomever the Establishment wants to win, indeed, will.

Oddly enough, this is my first diary over here even though I've been a reader (and member) for about 3 or 4 years. I used to post a good bit over at DailyKos and even worked with George Lakoff for a year. Anyway, enough background. On to the meat ...

This is a diary about tactics and not so much about issues.

Obama is not engaging in an issue specific campaign. He's deliberately, in my view, attempting to stay above the fray in terms of interest groups. And, like it or not, the Netroots is an interest group -- albeit a very large and diverse one with a host of issues that are being advocated. But it is still not considered to be a legitimate interest group by the Establishment. We can argue all day about the fights the Netroots has won. And there are many. But while inroads are being made into having a true stake in the party structure (like Dean's eing head of the DNC -- probably the most strategic and impressive weilding of power by the Netroots), the Establishment is still al powerful.

And the Establishment or, as I also like to call them, The Powers That Be, are in charge and like to be paid homage to. They ddon't like the upstarts. They don't like to be surpised. Thee power of the Establishment is clearly seen in how Dean's People Powered Movement was not only turned back at the door but nearly run out of town. And we were left with Kerry, a good man who ran a very poor campaign. But, he was the one who worked with the Establishment.

Let's do a little looking back over history. When was the last time an insurgent candidate actually won the Democratic primary? 1992? 1984? I don't know when it was, frankly. But I would argue that it has been quite a long time since an insurgent candidate won. Thee Establishment has deep power to frame the debate and the candidacies. I'm not talking conspiracy theories here. I'm simply talking about the levers and structures that are in place that allow the Establishment to force their will to happen. After all, the American public are mostly sheeple who want to vote for the winner.

By the way, this is not just a Democratic thing. Look over at the Republican side. McCain the last time? McCain even this time? (I'd argue that he's not even the Establishment candidate this time -- though I'm not quite sure -- he's played obescience, but I don't think the Establishment trusts him).

Anyway, the Establishment candidate up to now has been Hillary Clinton. She's been their candidate as well as the presumptive nominee. And I think those two things are fairly different. But the narrative is changing. First, because her support with the Establishment has always been fairly soft. And second, we have another candidate, Obama, who is making inroads into the Establishment.

If you look at his fundraising picture, it gives you the whole story. Obama has gotten quite a bit of money and support from the people. But he's also gotten a LOT of money and support from the Establishment. Just check out this WaPo article: http://tinyurl.com/ypttj5

Obama is speaking to the Establishment and lining up their support. He's even got the lobbyists to support his anti-lobby donation program. He's been gaining support in the news narratives. He just went through a bit of a down news cycle. But even when he was in the up cycle, it was glowing but with a tad of skepticism. The new cycle that has started (look at the Atlanta Journal Constitution today) is not just about fluff but about substance, too. He's also gaining in the Netroots again after some hearty skepticism. But he's not een seen as pandering to the Netroots. And I think that's key to his Establishment narrative. Because the Establishment just barely tolerates the Netroots.

Frankly, I'm not sure I blame them for being a little afraid of the Netroots. By design, the Netroots is sort of like a many headed hydra. They never know which direction its going to come at them from. That's not a bad thing. But the Netroots has no true head or power structure. As a result, it's difficult to fire out how to figure it out. It's difficult to fight it. That's not to mean that they won't use it when it suits their purposes. But otherwise, I think the Establishment sees the Netroots as an annoying gnat most of the time.

Obama is working both sides of the coin. I think that's extremely smart. He's shown his smarts in working the system previously. Just check out what he did when he ran for the Illinois Senate: http://tinyurl.com/29cb73. He knocked out the current candidate and waltzed to the Senate floor. He studies the systems and tries to work within them and outside of them.

I think it's actually good that he's not the presumptive Netroots candidate. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to work the Establishment like he's clearly doing. He needs to get them on his side. No matter what we want (as opposed to how it should be), they have the most power right now. He may never get their full endorsement. After all, Clinton is extremely powerful, herself, and has been in bed with almost the whole of the establishment. But, if he can knock them off being for her and make them somewhat neutral, then he's got a chance in the power broker game. And he can really go after the Netroots then.

I love that Edwards is going after the Netroots vote. And I'd love it if he won. I'd love it more if Obama won. Hell, I'd be okay if Clinton won. Perhaps in another diary I'll write about why I really want Obama to win.

Tags: 08, Edwards, netroots, obama (all tags)

Comments

36 Comments

Tipjar?

Do you think this diary added anything substantive to the discussion of the candidates? Let me know.

by blackmahn 2007-04-15 01:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Tipjar?

very clever diary, my friend. I just posted one on KOS called "I have man crush on Barack Obama and John Edwards"

by the green and bold 2007-04-15 03:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Tipjar?

Hey great diary over at DK. I recommended it. We definitely need to come together around all of this. I agree with one poster over there who said that she hopes progressives don't split the vote and end up getting Hillary elected. Well, I hope so too, since she's far down in my third category of like. Richardson may be inching past her (though I think she has more of an apparatus to win than he does). Anyway, I'm developing a man crush on you, too.

by blackmahn 2007-04-15 03:29PM | 0 recs
can you please write more?

very helpful and informative.

by colorless green ideas 2007-04-15 06:57PM | 0 recs
I think it's a great diary

that's why the resentment level is so high against Obama on here, he's not Howard Dean and doesn't pretend to be, what Obama is is pretty much a generic democrat on the issues and that's what he's selling in that regard, all his policy positions are pretty standardemocratic fare, his stance on the war now, and basically incramental liberalism what Obama's campaign rationale is an abilty to communicate a general democratic philosophy in an amizingly new and exiting way, appealing to non-partisons through tone but many liberal democrats through an ability to advance our cause like no other, his race and backround along with a "generational appeal due to his looks are an asset, the messanger does matter, ask Republicans about Reagan it matters more than the message when the messages are basically the same, Edwards is more popular because he emphasizes the message to people that care about the nuts and bolts of the specifics and those people tend to come or blog on sites like this,but as Hillary's heath care debacle and Reagans advancement of the conservative adgenda showes us is that the way the American poltical process is set up it's  much better to have the messanger than the perfect message and that why I hope Obama is our nominee.

by nevadadem 2007-04-15 02:00PM | 0 recs
Re: I think it's a great diary

The problem with Obama is that if he is a "generic" Democratic candidate rather than a pigeonholed winger of some kind (which is not a bad placement when it comes to a General election) he still MUST master the details of each Democratic interest group, otherwise he is not a complete candidate.  Multiple reports of him bombing in front of various Democratic interest groups is not a good thing at all.  In fact, it is one of the more negative things a "generic" candidate trying to erase an "inexperience" consideration could have written about himself.  He has to do his homework and be up on the wonk details, or he won't make it.  There already is an "establishment" candidate, but in addition she has also shown a mastery of the "boring" policy details, and she is seen to have lots of experience to boot.  

by georgep 2007-04-15 03:36PM | 0 recs
Re: I think it's a great diary

I think you're right that he needs to get more wonky. But we have lots and lots of time before anything really, truly matters in this campaign. Actually, what does matter right now is establishing the generic narrative. Given the length of the primary, Obama has the luxury of presenting himself as post-partisan and not beholden to interest groups. He can then go back and do some shoring up of those groups once the narrative has been established. thus, if he wins the primary he's in a great position to present himself to the rest of the country based on the early narrative that won't scare off the independents. But that's just my take on where he's trying to go with this.

by blackmahn 2007-04-15 03:50PM | 0 recs
Re: I think it's a great diary

The problem is that one must win the primaries to get to the General.  If he is too "generic" and too cautious, he will not connect with enough Democrats to make it past the primaries.  

Right now Edwards is a bit too "brazen" IMHO, (of course he talks from a "retired" position, which is easier than actually "being" in the Senate,) Clinton is making a lot of noise that positions her away from the Independent vote, and Obama is the most cautious of the three.   I personally believe that it is easier to get your rank and file behind you, THEN reach out to likeminded Democratic-leaning Independents once the primaries are won, rather than doing it the other way around, which is what I understand you believe Obama is doing.   He is positioning himself "above the fray" to appeal to Independents, but it is a high-stakes gamble as it is for naught if he can't get enough primary delegates together.

As you say, there is some time, of course.  It is just that core support is hardening already, and there is not that much room left to change positions and strategies, otherwise you quickly get the "flip-flop" and "waffle" label put on.  

by georgep 2007-04-15 04:10PM | 0 recs
surprising that Edwards

is the only one courting the "left".

the breaking blue link to the Richardson fundraiser in TExas quotes the blogger saying Richardson is going to stay as a "pro-business centrist"

by TarHeel 2007-04-15 04:21PM | 0 recs
Re: surprising that Edwards

I don't think Richardson could have made that switch. Edwards could move to the left, as he's a former legislator, his actions are essentially limited to what he says, whereas Richardson is a governor, if he hasn't governed like a progressive he can't really run as one without making himself very vulnerable.

However, I'm not sure Edwards is the only candidate trying to get the votes of the left. Dodd seems to be going for old-style liberals but also the establishment, a contradictory mix that to a large extent explains his failure to gain traction, whilst Kucinich is the representative of the impossibilists and non-Democratic leftists this time around, and Gravel stands for a long tradition of eclecticism and a tendency towards quixotic behaviour which has been part of left politics since before the French Revolution.

Edwards is just the only candidate who's trying to win the left who's going to get more than 5% in non-home state primaries.

by Englishlefty 2007-04-15 05:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Why it's a good thing Obama is not the presump

i though this an extreemly well done diary and thought provoking.  Alot to think over. bravo!

by vwcat 2007-04-15 02:01PM | 0 recs
Actually, I Think This Is Fairly Mundane

But I recommended it anyway, because I think that mundane insights are a big step forward compared to much of what I've seen in the diaries of late.

p.s.  The last time an insurgent candidate got the nomination was George McGovern in 1972.  And the Establishment is thoroughly determined that that can never happen again.

They much prefer Mondale's 49-state loss in 1984 to McGovern's in 1972. That's why they keep repeating the Mondale/84 formula every chance they get.

by Paul Rosenberg 2007-04-15 02:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Actually, I Think This Is Fairly Mundane

Curious about definition of insurgent candidate. Jimmy Carter?

by demondeac 2007-04-15 02:58PM | 0 recs
Carter???

Your kidding, right???

Fred Harris was the insurgent candidate in '76.

Jerry Brown was the phony insurgent candidate in '76.

Jimmy Carter was the Born Again good ole boy candidate in '76.

by Paul Rosenberg 2007-04-15 11:55PM | 0 recs
true, though shirely chisholm

was the real insurgent in that race..

by colorless green ideas 2007-04-15 06:59PM | 0 recs
Whom I Supported

But McGovern was the candidate no one in the Establishment took seriously, who won the nomination anyway.  And he did it with the support of party outsiders.  He represented the base against the wishes of the party hierarchy.  He was not as radical as Chisolm, but he definitely qualified as insurgent.

If you won't accept McGovern as an insurgent candidate, then the last time an insurgent won the Democratic nomination was 1896.

by Paul Rosenberg 2007-04-16 12:03AM | 0 recs
Re: Whom I Supported

that's why i said "true". i agree that an insurgent won in 1972, but it's just ironic that even in that race, there was an "insurgent" and then an "insurgent to the insurgent" who said things that were true, yet unpalatable even to supporters of the reigning "insurgent".

by colorless green ideas 2007-04-16 12:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Why it's a good thing

The establishment on both sides is split:

The Times Poll, directed by Susan Pinkus, interviewed 313 of 386 DNC members and 133 of 165 RNC members from Feb. 13-26. Since the poll attempted to interview current state members of each organization rather than a random sample, there is no margin of error.

Among Republicans, Romney had the most backing among party insiders, with 20% support, followed by Giuliani with 14%, McCain with 10% and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich of Georgia -- who has said he might enter the race in the fall -- with 8%.

In a potentially worrisome sign for McCain, just over 1 in 10 RNC members said they would not support him if he won the party's nomination in his second attempt.

Among Democrats, Sen. Clinton of New York had the backing of 20% of party leaders, followed by Edwards with 15%, Obama with 11%, former Vice President Al Gore -- who is not in the race -- with 10% and New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson with 9%.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/ nation/la-adna-timespoll4mar04,0,1270897 .story?coll=la-home-headlines

by jallen 2007-04-15 03:03PM | 0 recs
lol Dean qualifies as an insurgent

none of the big 3 hear really do as unlike Dean they are not fundamentally tring to redefine the party, dean was because at the time forceful resistance to Bush's foreign policy was not the dempcratic party line.

by nevadadem 2007-04-15 03:04PM | 0 recs
Re: lol Dean qualifies as an insurgent
O, how I beg to differ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fkoV-4uX 5M
by jallen 2007-04-15 03:14PM | 0 recs
Re: lol Dean qualifies as an insurgent

Edwards was the 2004 vice presidential nominee. That disqualifies him from any claim to "insurgent status" almost by definition.

by Korha 2007-04-15 07:22PM | 0 recs
Re: lol Dean qualifies as an insurgent

By saying "almost by definition" you're able to say it without giving a legitmiate reason for saying it.  John Edwards is running against the DLC/NewDem establishment, trying to reclaim our party from the forces that took over it in the 1980s.  If that isn't a candidate that's trying to redefine the party, it'd be hard to say that Dean was either.

by jallen 2007-04-15 07:28PM | 0 recs
Edwards Has Some Claim As An Insurgent

Being the VP candidate one time around does not automatically make you an establishment candidate.  

It gives you a pass to be one.  But Edwards is rather deliberately not taking that pass.

by Paul Rosenberg 2007-04-16 12:09AM | 0 recs
Its nice that you can say this

as an Obama supporter. The same diary written by someone whose first choice was someone else (particurly Edwards) would have probably already been attacked as a "hit peice".

by okamichan13 2007-04-15 03:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Its nice that you can say this

Yeah. I try to be fairly clear eyed about what it takes to win. And I think Obama is trying to actually win as opposed to simply throw a wench into things. You have to win in order to change things -- at least for some things. And I think he'll actually try to change things once he's i n office. All that I've read about him -- from his time in the Illinois Assembly and Senate to the things he's tried to focus on as Senator tell me that he's out to do some good. He's trying to change not only the rhetoric but the way that politics is done. At least that's my hope. And I have a bit of a Machiavellian instinct when it comes to winning. At least when it's done for the good.

by blackmahn 2007-04-15 03:19PM | 0 recs
will anyone call out

this wink and a nod fundraising approach.

true no federal lobbyist is directly giving but spouses are fair game and the lobbyists donor lists have been turned over this was a dubious part of the article you linked.

The campaign received $50,566 from 49 lobbyists, but aides flagged the checks during initial screening and said they will return the money. Still, for hosting events and otherwise raising money, the Obama fundraising team is relying on partners in lobbying firms who are not registered for specific clients, former lobbyists who recently dropped clients and spouses of lobbyists. The strategy allows Obama's team to reach the wealthy clients of lobbying firms while technically complying with his pledge.

Joanne Hannett, whose husband, Fred, is a lobbyist for UnitedHealth Group and other clients, is helping raise money for Obama. Although Fred Hannett attended an Obama event, he said he has not personally donated any money or "solicited any of my clients."

Obama also has no prohibition against using state lobbyists to raise money, even when they represent companies with business before the federal government.

by TarHeel 2007-04-15 03:57PM | 0 recs
Re: will anyone call out

I'm not primarily an Obama supporter, but a) I'd find a policy refusing money from wives and husbands of lobbyists fairly offensive, and b) the whole idea of this diary, I think, is that Obama is extremely wisely using a wink and a nod to first win the nomination and then the general.

I've gotta say that if Obama is, in fact, acting in such an underhanded, Machiavellian, scheming fashion ... then maybe I am primarily an Obama supporter.

I'm praying he's engaged in a sneaky campaign, and playing all the angles. The very idea makes me far more comfortable with his candidacy.

by BingoL 2007-04-15 04:26PM | 0 recs
it seems like he is...

the Hill had the story quoting a Hillary fundraiser saying even though he was a lobbyist the obama camp was asking for his donor list.

so yes depdending on your view it's either highly machiavellian or highly unethical to talk about not taking lobbyist money but tapping the lobbyist donor lists and spouses and relatives and children.

But it should be highly effective in taking Hillary down.  If obama can stay near her in the polls, he will outraise Hillary in each and every quarter.. that is crystal clear.  Hillary donors will start giving to Obama if he does well in the polls and she will exhaust her list as it appears 25% of the money she raised is from  donors who are already tapped out.

by TarHeel 2007-04-15 04:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Its nice that you can say this

That's a bit snarky... and while a few idiots might have done that, I think a lot of Obama supporters would have appreciated.  As I have said, it isn't the criticism that bothers me... its when the diaries are extremely disrespectful to the candidate and his supporters.  There is always a nasty way to say it and a respectful, polite way of saying...

Example:  I disagree with what Candidate A says because...

vs.

Candidate A is a sellout (or Idiot or Empty suit or Brainless Smile or Evil Bitch (to get stuff said about all 3 candidates)) because they...

There is a big difference between the two.  

by yitbos96bb 2007-04-15 03:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Its nice that you can say this

Sometimes the nice way works, but sometimes even that is seen as "trashing" a candidate. Its just unfortunatle when an atmosphere exists where anything critical of a candidate isn't responded to on its merits if any, but is dismissed out of hand as an attack. True for ANY candidate.

and it wasn't meant to be snarky

by okamichan13 2007-04-15 07:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Why it's a good thing Obama is not

you've said what I've sorta been thinking, but way better than I knew how to say it

by jg40 2007-04-15 03:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Why it's a good thing Obama is not the presump

And, like it or not, the Netroots is an interest group -

Some good general thoughts, but that is a non-starter. It's a very inaccurate perception of the netroots. It's like saying that the Democratic Party is an interest group; or that a partisan movement is an interest group. An interest group is defined around... issues. Is there any issue, other than opposition to the war, that the netroots are totally together on?  None that I can think of... even hyper-partisanship?  We've done polls here, and that's split.

Is having an online rapid-response to the rightwing smear machine of superior ability that the Republicans an interest group?

You know, Mark Warner was also engaged in a campaign that was not appealing to the interest groups, and that was great. He also understood that the democratic activists, engaged on the frontline of the internet to battle the rightwing, was the new Democratic Party.

It is a failure any Democratic campaign that does not engage the netroots in a compelling manner. And if a Presidential candidate for the Democrats has not built the rapid-response network by integrating their campaign forces with the netroots, the rightwing machine will eat him alive. There's no reason to rationalize it; better that they work on implementing it before it becomes a tragic failure.

by Jerome Armstrong 2007-04-15 04:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Why it's a good thing Obama is not the presump

Thanks, Jerome. Perhaps I was putting together apples and oranges. You are right that the Netroots is not an interest group. But, I think what I was meaning is that this is how the Establishment sees the Netroots. It's sort of all fruit to them.

You are also right that the Netroots does serve an extremely useful function for any candidate as the leftwing rapid response team. It's an amazingly effective tactic. It truly shows the power of the collective voice as has been presented by many online theorists/thinkers and as exemplified by wikipedia and other collective voices.

My hope, though, as you remind us here, is that Obama is just waiting to get into the mix with the Netroots. he has a great 2.0 site up. I know it's a closed system (and, thus, some would argue it's not a true social networking system). But there's room there to change it. And there are ways for them to merge their systems with the progressive blogosphere. A great feature they could implement, for instance, would be to allow diaries posted here, at DKos and other places, to become automatically part of the blog spaces they have on barackobama.com. That's a start.

But, I think you're talking about moresubstantive, issue-oriented ways to get him involved. And I do believe that he will get there. But for now, I think he's trying to remain the second favorite for a bit.

And even if he always remains second, the last time around shows that the Netroots will coalesce around the eventual candidate -- Kerry was widely reviled (though with some prominent supporters). But he reaped the benefits of the blogosphere when he won the primaries.

by blackmahn 2007-04-15 05:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Why it's a good thing Obama is not the presump

You say "he has a great 2.0 site up" and then acknowledge it's totally closed. My impression of it is that it's 1.0+, and similar to Facebook in 2004 or 2005. There's nothing on his website that interacts with content outside it's walls, is there?  

Kerry's campaign was widely rejected, but not the candidate. In fact, if you go back and look to late '02, Kerry was the favorite with online polls. It was the fact that he had failed leadership that didn't understand how to work with the online component that made for his campaign to be rejected. Ultimately, he hired people that fixed it in '04, even though Shrum et al., proved to be the bigger campaign failure.

by Jerome Armstrong 2007-04-16 02:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Why it's a good thing Obama is not the presump

You are right that his site is closed however only a very small percent of the users would see Obama's site as you do.  For most users it offers multiple interesting and modern tools in one centralized location.  It appears innovative and cutting edge even with its limitations.

by aiko 2007-04-16 04:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Why it's a good thing Obama is not the presump

Good points.

by Jerome Armstrong 2007-04-16 04:58AM | 0 recs

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