I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish and petulant

In the past, I have repeatedly denounced those Clinton supporters, here and elsewhere, who claim that they will not vote for Obama in the fall if he is the nominee. I thought that letting McCain continue Bush's disastrous term just because Hillary was one of the many candidates who didn't win the nomination is just plain dumb.

I'm sorry I ever thought that. I now join the ranks of those I previously called "childish."

I will not vote for Hillary Rodham Clinton under any circumstances.

After seeing what she has done about the gas tax holiday, and hearing her parrot the words of George W. Bush, sneering at "experts" and pushing an idea that is considered stupid by everyone except those who don't know any better, I can't even think about voting for her without wanting to throw up.

It probably won't matter. Obama has the nomination wrapped up, and if she keeps fighting after June 15, I'm sure Obama will stop being nice and start shredding her with all of her vulnerabilities that have yet gone unexplored, like the donors to the Clinton Library. Besides that, my state is guaranteed to go for McCain.

Still, I will root for a McCain victory if Clinton is the nominee, because it is worth four more years of Bush to finally break the death grip that those two have on the Democratic Party.  These people must be marginalized, Hillary must be pushed to the back bench to sit next to John Kerry, and we must be given a chance to try again in four years instead of the eight years we would have to wait if she wins the White House.

So to everyone who vowed to vote for McCain, I apologize. I am one of you now.

Tags: a vote for McCain is stupid, apology, death grip on Democratic party, Hillary, sacred vow (all tags)

Comments

195 Comments

Re: I'm sorry I

And i too have said I would not vote for BO and i support HRC.  Through it was months ago.

And try to defend HRC when i can because I think his campaign and some suporters have treated her very badly and smeared her.  And it will be very hard for me to vote BO but the fact is i will and that is that.

He may never be my president and i will not lie i dont like him and his campaign.  But that will not stop me from voting for him and sending monies and as much as i can justify.  

david

by giusd 2008-05-03 04:59PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I

Good for you David because I know you don't like Senator Obama at all. I too would vote for Senator Clinton if she were to win.

by Politicalslave 2008-05-03 06:55PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I

for once David we agree

by wellinformed 2008-05-04 06:29AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Obama supporters shouldn't be mad because Clinton scored major political points with the gas tax gig.

It doesn't matter what the "experts" say.  Ordinary people don't hear them.

People!  It isn't an argument you want to win, it is a fight.  Obama doesn't have it in him.

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 04:59PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

you think she'll stop selling you down the river after she's won the presidency?  Bill Clinton didn't.

This what the Clintons and the DLC do: take poll-tested positions in between the two parties--things like "welfare reform", the "V-chip", and voting for wars in Iraq and Iran.

The selling out doesn't stop at inauguration day.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:02PM | 0 recs
Edwards was the only politician this...

season who would not have sold us down the river. Both Hillary & Obama are pretty good on the selling out thing.

The question right now is who can actually win the general election?

So far based on the demographics, it's looking like Clinton.

by cosbo 2008-05-03 05:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards was the only politician this...

really?  i have yet to see that.

What I do see is Obama currently under fire from:

  • Fox News and the entire VRWC
  • Hillary Clinton and her machine
  • Bill Clinton, the former very popular president
  • John McCain
  • and the traditional media's rabid focus on Reverend Wright at the expense of real issues

And he's still winnning.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Bullshit ~ Bill Clinton did not sell ME down the river, nor will HIllary.  Whatever made you so bitter and mean?

by Mags 2008-05-03 05:15PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Has her bitterness brought her closer to god and guns?  I wonder.

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 05:17PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

they sold the party down the river.  they sold income equality down the river.  They screwed up the possibility of implementing healthcare reform for 15 years.  They sold the poor down the river under the guise of "welfare reform", and sold the manufacturing sector down the river under the guise of "NAFTA."  They sold the LGBT community down the river with the Defense of Marriage Act.  They used every Republican talking point in the book.

Most importantly, they kept on Alan F'ing Greenspan as Fed Chief and racked up huge asset bubbles benefiting the rich and those who own stocks and houses at the expense of all the rest of us.

The Party suffered huge losses during Bill's tenure.

And then Hillary voted for war in Iraq--and then again in Iran.

They sell us out every chance they get.  The only reason I'll ever vote for a Clinton is to disallow a Republican from getting an office--but never otherwise if I can possibly help it.  I don't like being stabbed in the back.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:33PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Look at the exit polls:
Hard Dems are voting for Hillary, LGBT are voting for her, so do the lower-income. As for the Alan Greenspan stuff, voters concerned about the economy vote Hillary too.

I have a hard time believing you're really one of any of these groups. So my advice is: let people decide for themselves if you care so much about them.

by eumc 2008-05-03 05:38PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

I am the most unapologetic, openly gay man anyone will ever meet.

Defense of Marraige Act: Good politics.

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 05:41PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

glad you think so.  I happen to think that caving to Republicans and spewing their talking points is bad politics.

When it comes to framing issues and public policy, there is no such thing as a step back for two steps forward.

There's only that step back that allows the other side to push you even farther back.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:43PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

If he didn't sign it, they would have killed him with it.  It simply allows the states to decide.  

No big deal.

Are you gay??

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 05:49PM | 0 recs
Depends which state you live in, I guess. n/t

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-03 05:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Depends which state you live in, I guess. n/t

seriously.  Maybe we should take the same position on abortion!

Let's let the states decide--that way the right can't "kill us" with the abortion issue!

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Depends which state you live in, I guess. n/t

It is sad that the left seems to be constantly on defense.

by freedom78 2008-05-03 08:47PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

no, i'm not.  shall we cave to all right-wing politics, then, just so we don't "get killed" with it by the right?

Then by all means, let's keep Don't Ask Don't Tell in place.  After all, it polls well, and a president who tries to change it would just "get killed", right?

And while we're at it, let's vote for Bush's wars in Iraq and Iran, because failure to do so would get us killed as Dirty Fucking Hippies.

And let's build a wall on the Mexican border so we dont get killed on illegal immigration.

And let's support McCain's gas tax holiday huge idiotic giveaway to oil companies so we don't "get killed."

This is the problem with Clinton politics.  It's bad for Democrats, and bad for progressive values.  And even if they may win personally, the Party suffers massive losses because the base is depressed and no one knows what we stand for anymore.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:54PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Yes, because Obama's post-partisanship is the expression of the progressive ideals.

Are you kidding me? Obama's on record praising the dumbest Republican ideas, from 'freedom' to choose if you want healthcare to pollution regulation

by eumc 2008-05-03 06:03PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

you don't like pollution regulation because...why again?

And healthcare mandates are the wrong idea.  They were wrong in Massachusetts, and they're still wrong.  You don't reduce healthcare costs by garnishing people's wages.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

It was about Republican-style pollution regulation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/02/opinio n/02krugman.html

As for the mandates, just notice your argument isn't a progressive one. You may believe it, but you're on the right-wing side of this issue.

by eumc 2008-05-03 06:20PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Fine.

LGBT community was quite ok with DOMA back when in was enacted, wasn't it? I mean, they knew what the fight was, right? That means it's good politics, only outdated

by eumc 2008-05-03 05:47PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

I hope this is snark.  Good politics do not equal good policy.

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-03 05:53PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant
No, it is not. The whole gay marriage stuff was always about politics.
As policy, DOMA does not have too much value: if the Full Faith and Credit clause applies to marriage, DOMA is moot. If it doesn't it only leaves the decision to the states. And you know, 10 years after DOMA, gay marriage bans were still being passed in the states anyway.
by eumc 2008-05-03 06:08PM | 0 recs
I'm sure that's great comfort to the married...

couple's of Massachusetts.

Just politics.

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-03 06:16PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sure that's great comfort to the married..

They should challenge DOMA in court again and again.

see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Faith_ and_Credit_Clause#Same-sex_marriage_cont roversy

by eumc 2008-05-03 06:22PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sure that's great comfort to the married..

They should.  It doesn't make DOMA good policy.

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-03 06:24PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant
Research the reason why Clinton voted for DOMA before forming opinions.
DOMA was a compromise to have EDNA passed (which ended up failing by just a few votes) and to stop a constitutional amendment from passing, which surely would have happened in the 90s.  
Clinton knew that DOMA is much easier to overturn than a constitutional amendment.  Please do more research next time.
by Scope441 2008-05-03 07:22PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

I'm highly concerned about the economy--it's my #1 or #2 issue.  Lots of economy voters vote Obama.

Look, it's a demographic thing: baby boomers who got rich under the Clintons often think they were fabulous for the economy.

Millennials and younger Xers who have had to get jobs and pay rent and try to afford housing in the post-Clinton years know better.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:47PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Remember when WJC said it's the greatest time to be alive in America? People thought it true.

The point is, however you slice it, you cannot blame the Clintons for making people feel happy during those years.

by eumc 2008-05-03 05:51PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

no, I don't.  It was a frivolous time as people partied even as the embers started to burn the foundation of the house.

I do blame the Clintons for exacerbating the situation and not only failing to stop the house from burning down, but actively adding fuel to the fire.

They chose the politically easy path, as always.  And I hold them accountable for that.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:58PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

This is actually pure non sense.

You're calling  frivolous the time of the largest economic upturn in history? And you know, amassing a budget surplus isn't exactly burning the foundations of the house either.

words, just words

by eumc 2008-05-03 06:13PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Okay, now I'm certain you're confusing the nineties with the eighties.  You are so wrong!

by Mags 2008-05-03 06:36PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

sigh.  no i'm not.  I'm talking about the nineties--that magical economic time of magnificent increases in the stock market and housing prices, even as income inequality continued to spike through the roof and the manufacturing sector collapsed due to NAFTA and the "era of big government" was declared over.

Yes, the budget was balanced--no doubt.  But I don't consider that an extraordinary achievement, given the inflationary boom we were in.  And yes, there were jobs--but those jobs paid less and less versus inflation.  Versus inflation, it actually got harder to make a living if you weren't being buoyed by your house or stocks.

Those of us who were kids and teens in the nineties know just how far we got sold down the river during that time.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 07:37PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Wrong on inflation, wrong on income inequality, wrong on manufacturing, wrong for America!

Maybe you should use your talents otherwise. How about knitting?

by eumc 2008-05-03 07:44PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

yeah, that's it, actually.  I'll add wrong on trade, wrong on gay rights, wrong on "welfare reform", wrong on "big government" and framing of Democratic values, and wrong on lobbyists to all that as well.

Yeah, that's about it: the Clintons--wrong on just about everything.  Wrong for America.

I'll still vote for them over McCain, though, in the very unlikely event it comes to that.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 07:51PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Those of you who were kids obviously weren't aware of what actually was going on in the nineties in "real time".

by Mags 2008-05-03 07:54PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

actually, i was very, very aware.  I presume you mean the mean, nasty old Republicans who took Congress.

Guess what--I don't see Bush caving to the Dems near as much as Bill caved to the Republicans.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-04 02:16AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

This gas tax debacle demonstrates why for those concerned about the economy, BHO is the ONLY candidate to vote for.

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-03 05:54PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Unfortunately for you, the gas tax debate is not about the economy, it is about policy making.

by eumc 2008-05-03 05:58PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

yep.  It's BAD, shortsighted policy--just like letting Greenspan inflate asset bubbles.

Get it?  The Clintons are all about short-term victory now, and crossing the big bad bridge up ahead later.

I've had enough of that crap.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:59PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

possible, but you were pretending it was about the economy

by eumc 2008-05-03 06:15PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

first of all, I wasn't.  The other commenter was.  Second, you're really splitting hairs, aren't you?

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 06:17PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

2 X yes

by eumc 2008-05-03 06:24PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Wait, price levels aren't about the Economy?!?!

Thanks for making my case for me.

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-03 06:18PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Well, it is about the economy if you want to argue, as some do, that keeping gas prices up is a long-term economic benefit. It is, but people will not tolerate it for long and Obama wouldn't say that.

Voters buy short-term solutions, however small the benefits. That's what Hillary's proposing. Obama does not offer an economic alternative, his plans are long term-only, and pretty identical to Hillary's.

The alternatives are the gas tax suspension or nothing. So  this debate is about policy-making.

by eumc 2008-05-03 06:37PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

I would argue even further, that the gas tax holiday is long-term economic poison (and long term political poison too -- what happens in September when it's over and candidate Hillary is forced to either advocate making it permanent or advocate "raising taxes"?).  

The case I'm making is this:

- Basic economics indicates this would NOT reduce gas prices, even in short term.
- The long term result of increasing demand, even short term, is exponentially worse than the short term benefit.

It's not policy-making, it's politics-making, and a bad idea to boot.  Furthermore, even if its good (very) short term politics for Clinton, it's horrible for the party, as congress is now forced to choose between bad policy and facing ads from republicans about how they voted against tax relief that even Democratic presidential candidates supported.

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-03 07:04PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Just to clarify: 'basic economics' doesn't indicate such thing and most such suspensions go away in the fall without any problem. The benefit will be very small, but it will be nonetheless. As for the increased demand argument, there are two parts.

First, if it's 'just pennies', how much can it increase demand? Secondly, it seems quite improbable that refineries do not have ANY medium term reserves for the summer months. Is this really true?

finally, I LOVE the way she's taking Congress on. Basically, she's gaining popularity from its unpopularity. Truly presidential thing to do.

by eumc 2008-05-03 07:18PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Wow, just wow.

Consider this my closing argument on the subject.  To your points specifically:

1. "Basic Economics" can be applied either short term or long term, an in either case, it does not make this a good idea.  There is a reason that Hillary has not been able to find a <u>single</u> high-profile economist to support this position.  It's a bad economic idea, short and long term.

2. It is just pennies.  How much can this increase demand?  Enough to raise the price, well, just pennies.  Reserves are irrelevant -- prices aren't set by stores, they are set by demand (and in this case speculation -- trust me, the fact that I am not addressing this is in your favor as factoring that in makes this an even worse idea).  

3. This is presidential in the same way Bush is presidential.  It's a horrible idea, advocated for (very) short term political expediency, that would have no real world impact on the very people it purports to help.  She does not gain by taking on congress but rather by pandering to low-information voters (no this is not being elitist, it's being a realist), nor does she advance a tough but needed policy through congress like taking them on over healthcare would be.  No, all she is doing is putting Democratic congressional seats at risk by forcing them to play into a republican talking point.

I've spoken my peace on this.  The economists have spoken their peace.  If you still choose to believe this that this is a good idea, there's really nothing to be said that can dissuade you, but don't pretend that the reality based community is with you on this issue.

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-03 07:54PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

I wasn't pretending that and I didn't say it was a good idea. What I did say was that the debate is about policy making and you all make it sound like a Great Depression inducing stuff.

However, to the point you were making, I cannot believe smart people were saying that with or without a tax, the pump gas price would be the same. Of course, if supply is stable, the rising demand will raise the price. But is supply really stable?

What's presidential is in the eye of the beholder. I just think it will play out very well politically. One could argue this substantively along the lines of populism versus technocracy: there's smth strange about a Congress at 20% approval siding with Bloomberg and the economists against a (somewhat) popular idea. I'll think about it.

by eumc 2008-05-03 08:11PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Thanks for your reply -- it's reasonable enough that I will respond.

No supply isn't 100% stable. (Though to my previous speculation point, its instabilities are already accounted for in the price).  If we accept as true the premise that supply is limited, we only increase the incentive to charge as much as possible -- especially if policy is being used to increase demand.  Holding onto the supply until prices are higher (provided they raise faster than interest rates dictate, which they currently are) is in the oil companies' best interest.  The only way to get at (private) reserves is to increase the profitability of releasing them.  A windfall tax, even if coupled with the elimination of the pump tax, does that how?  

It may not be depression inducing, but that doesn't make it a good idea.  Is a step in the wrong direction economically and environmentally inadvisable only if depression is the end result?

If someone is running as the candidate of solutions, I would expect them to provide them, not fake them.

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-03 08:29PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Here we go again. The long term proposals are the same for BO and HRC, the general windfall profits scheme is the same as well. The whole difference is whether we should suspend the gas tax for three months or not.

Poor commuters might like it, it's not unreasonable for them to cherish their 50$. You may not like it, but it is a legitimate (and not very significant) solution.

Obama's problem is that he's playing holier than thou without having an alternative short-term 'gimmick' of his own. Voters might not like that, but again, it's legitimate for him as well to make the points he's making.

by eumc 2008-05-03 08:38PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

The long term windfall scheme is not a bad idea on its own.  (I would couple it with an increase in the mileage deduction for the self-employed and those who pay their own gas and a low-income tax credit for long-distance commuters (easily verifiable on tax filings)).  

As for suspending it for three months, if it would actually save poor commuters $50 that would be one thing, but it won't.  Obama actually gives it more credit than it deserves by suggesting it would.  Even if it did, I would come back to them in September.  It is not a legitimate solution and wholly insignificant.

Your beef is he doesn't have an ineffectual short term gimmick?  That's why I continue to support him.

Hillary would not propose this if she didn't think was necessary to her becoming the nominee, in no small part, because in September, she'd either be forced to defend "raising taxes" by ending it, or extending a bad policy by continuing it.

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-03 08:48PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Yeap, support him you will:)

An observation: the last point is false, the gas tax suspending legislation simply states that companies do not pay the gas tax from 1st of July to 1st of Oct. That's it, no debates after the three months, no political brouhaha, nothing, life goes back to normal.

by eumc 2008-05-03 09:00PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

I stand completely by my last point.

The argument you make asserting it is false is equivalent to saying the patriot act expires.  Well, yeah, it does, but that doesn't mean every time the legislation is set to expire it there is "no political brouhaha," and "life goes back to normal."

To assert otherwise is pretty naive.  I hope Hillary does not expect the skies to open up and Republicans to miraculously just drop the issue...

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-03 09:09PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Oh boy, when a law expires, the legislature should be pushed to reexamine it. That's always the job of the executive branch. The Patriot Act was pushed by Bush as well as the fast-track trade authority. If the Executive doesn't push it, it certainly dies.

Also notice that this wouldn't quite be a bill that expires, it would be a bill with limited effects. It's a suspension, it doesn't confer rights or responsibilities.

by eumc 2008-05-03 09:29PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Sure, and when the repeal of the estate tax expires, I'm sure as long as President Obama (or Clinton) will have to raise the issue themselves.  Othwerise it will just silently reinstate itself with no brouhaha.  Republicans will never bring it up during the 2010 congressional campaign and it will not make the news.  (Sorry for the AM snark, but I really don't think you've thought this through.)

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-04 05:32AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

People only give a damn about short-term policies when those policies actually help. AND THIS DOES NOT DO ANYTHING BUT BAD. You said thereisnospoon was on the right-wing side of the mandate issue, but your position on this issue is FAR, FAR more right-wing, because you are willing to throw out a tax that directly contributes to needed jobs and needed public services to gain symbolic political points. I can't think of ANYTHING that symbolizes the horrible policies of the Right better than that.

by vcalzone 2008-05-03 07:42PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Oh come on, no 'needed jobs and needed public services' will be lost, remember Hillary is actually paying for it. You may not like the windfall profits scheme (a lot of economists do not), but Obama is planning to use it long-term himself, isn't he?

by eumc 2008-05-03 08:40PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

I was a teenager in the 90s.  My generation got sold out so a bunch of homeowners could use their houses as ATMs, and so that a bunch of stockholders could see their holdings go up by 100% in a few short years contrary to all rationality.

In the meantime, cost of living increased for everyone everywhere, college got more expensive, and jobs paid less versus inflation.

Now the chickens are coming home to roost, and Clinton Democrats pretend it's all Bush's fault.

It isn't.  It's Alan Greenspan's--and the Clintons'--as much as it is Bush's and Bernanke's.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:42PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

You must have the nineties confused with the past 7 years ~ unless you're talking about the eighties.  Reality check please.  Where exactly did you get all your talking points?

by Mags 2008-05-03 06:30PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Actually, none of that is wrong at all.

by vcalzone 2008-05-03 07:35PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Really?  I strongly disagree!

by Mags 2008-05-03 07:47PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

with which part, exactly?

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-04 02:22AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

uhhh...history?  These are fairly well-established facts.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-04 02:22AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Thanks so much for writing this.  I'm so sick of hearing about how great the 90's were with no thought as to how the policies enacted during that era have influenced not only the economy but the entire political landscape today.  The consequences of an action are not always felt immediately.  Rampant speculation and corporate consolidation without government oversight led to the dot-com bubble and it's burst, the CA energy crisis, the housing fiasco, and ever rising gas prices  which in turn is making the cost of everything else go up.  We very badly need a Teddy Roosevelt.  I'm not sure we've got him in Obama, but I KNOW that no Clinton will ever take on corporate greed in a serious way.

One thing you didn't mention was the deregulation of the media which has led to a "media" which acted as cheerleaders in the run up to Iraq, have systematically helped Republicans control this country, and openly state their love affair with John McCain.

by Renie 2008-05-03 11:53PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Boy, Spoon -
You sure have turned into a troll during the primaries.

PS - As a gay man who watched the McClurkin affair unfold, I would venture to suggest that Obama has plenty of experience with selling and rivers.

by johnnygunn 2008-05-03 05:42PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

only a "troll" if you're a rabid Clinton supporter.  The rest of you "walked out" on your "strike" because you couldn't take the heat at DailyKos where most of the progressive community hangs out.  So you hang out here in an echo chamber where your talking points go unchallenged, and anyone who challenges them is a troll.

The Clintons were bad for the Democratic Party.  That's a well-established fact that even Jerome Armstrong, current Clinton supporter, acknowledges in his own book.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:45PM | 0 recs
You may not be a troll

but you aren't a progressive either. No progressive I have ever known has said anything as stupid as Roe v Wade doesn't matter, because they can always go to Canada if they need an abortion. And you did say that on kos, in one of your ridiculously hysterical diaries falsely charging caucus tampering in Nevada.

by anna belle 2008-05-03 05:51PM | 0 recs
Re: You may not be a troll

I don't think I said that--and if I said anything remotely similar, it would have been in comparison to things like global warming that are utterly inescapable.

Link me to where I said anything like that, and I'm almost certain you'll find a great deal of context there.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 06:00PM | 0 recs
Re: You may not be a troll

you say "falsely charging."  Why?  I have multiple accounts on the record, both in print and on audio.  Including an account from the editor of The Nation magazine.

Meanwhile, a diary with FAR less proof is currently at the top of the MyDD rec list.  You people are hilarious.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 06:11PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant
If anyone has become rabid it is you, Spoon.
We had an exchange months ago on DKos right after I had defended you against an inappropriate troll rating where you troll rated me for criticizing Obama.  You lost me then and there.  You ridicule and belittle others, then cry "Wolf!" at the least perceived offense.
by johnnygunn 2008-05-03 05:57PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

sorry i offended you at some point in the past.  Given your comment history here, though, I'm sure I took offense at some incredibly stupid thing you said and responded harshly.  Just like I'm doing to Clinton supporters in this thread now.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 06:02PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Well, it gets pretty depressing when all these Obama supporters are saying that the Clintons are the worst thing to ever happen to the country - when Bill Clinton was the last Democrat to get elected to the presidency since 1976.  It's one thing to work to get one's candidate nominated; however, the Democrats have demonstrated an unerring ability in presidential futility in my lifetime.  And the Supreme Court shows it.

by johnnygunn 2008-05-03 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

spoon, good to know that you're back on the beat. I always enjoy your insight.

by venician 2008-05-03 06:03PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

thx

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 07:38PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

You are a bitter bitter spoon.  And btw, so far you win the "most rabid" award in this thread.  And re taking the heat at Dkos ~ it wasn't about the heat, it was about the rabid ugly vitriol.

by Mags 2008-05-03 06:41PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

you say tomato...

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 07:39PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Dude!  Right on!!!!!  So true.

I'd say it was more of us being thrown under the bus.  

What he did in this situation is the epitome of politics as usual.  Double speaking hypocrit.

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 05:51PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

"It doesn't matter what the "experts" say.  Ordinary people don't hear them."

After 8 years of George Bush I am amazed to see something like this come from a Democrat.

by SFValues 2008-05-03 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

rabid Clinton supporters are pretty much willing to say anything at this point.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:33PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Why am I not troll rating this person?

by johnnygunn 2008-05-03 05:43PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Yeah, that's right.  I absolutely stand by it.  And I am 350% a Democrat.

The biggest problem with Democrats is that they are always convinced they are right and all they have to do is make their point.  Then the sky will part and angles will sing.

WRONG!  

I say it all the time: it isn't an argument you want to win, it is a fight.  You have to manipulate the media and pull stunts.  It works.  You can talk until you are blue in the face about how pointless it is to revoke the tax and tax windfall profits.

THE PEOPLE, all they hear is "suspend the tax" and that's all they need to hear.  You start "explaining", they tune out and, actually, stop liking you.  See Al Gore 2000.

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 05:34PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Just want to add one thing.

The hatred of GWB and Dick Cheney has in no way shape or form sparked a social revolution in this country.  That hatred has not made them any less racist, homophobic, or more educated and intellectually curious than they were in January 2000.

I know many Obama supporters are under the impression that such a revolution has taken place.  It won't be the first time that the Democratic party blindfolds itself and walks off a cliff with self-richeous smiles on their faces.

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 05:37PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Well, people are more tolerant now. Look at all "who's more outraged" game of this campaign.

However, I agree, Dems are destined to "walk off a cliff with self-righteous smiles on their faces.". At least we're enjoying ourselves

by eumc 2008-05-03 05:42PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

ummmm...did you see 2006?  Or did I dream that?  Have you seen the latest in Louisiana?

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 07:40PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

"THE PEOPLE, all they hear is "suspend the tax" and that's all they need to hear.  You start "explaining", they tune out and, actually, stop liking you."

If that is not an elitist statement, I don't know what is.

by SFValues 2008-05-03 05:37PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Yeah, I'm not a politician.  I can say what I think.

If Obama wants to make arguments and points, he should go back to being a professor and get out of this business.  What he said was above and beyond IDIOTIC.

Oh, wait, he wasn't actually a professor, was he.  Sorry.  He should go back to being a TA.

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 05:43PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Then you and Clinton have something in common. Neither of you is going to be the nominee.

by SFValues 2008-05-03 05:45PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

You may be right.  He may be the nominee. God I hope not.

He will never ever never never never be president.

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 05:56PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Right, because John McCain is such a dynamic candidate that is right on all the issues.

Obama and Clinton are fighting over who goes on to beat John McCain.

If you're a basketball fan, Obama and Clinton are the West, McCain is the East.

by SFValues 2008-05-03 05:58PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

I'm not a basketball fan.  I only understand baseball-speak, and that's only between the Sox and Yankees.

Seriously, though.  In 2004 the public was in the mood to go shopping for a new president.  The public was ready to throw the jerk out.  Just as consumers may be ready to get rid of their shitty car, the alternatives may not be satisfying.  

The public did not see John Kerry, for whatever reason, as an unacceptable alternative.  If the public, again for whatever reason, sees Obama as unacceptable alternative, they will vote for McCain's flappy old, Bush-kissing face.

Call me elitist all the live long day for saying it: Americans are, by and large, dumber than a box of rocks.  I am more than convinced enough people will never vote for Obama, guranteeing the unfortunate election of John McCain.

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 06:23PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Kerry lost because he ran a garbage campaign. Obama has already proven he can beat a Democratic party icon in a Democratic primary. I think his GE campaign will be just a top notch.

by SFValues 2008-05-03 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

He lost because he was just a terrible candidate.  

Obama does excite people, unlike Kerry.  However the same people Kerry needed and who rejected Kerry, meaning working class white people, will probably reject Obama too.  I certainly hope not.

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Bill Frist was killed for offering to send all Americans $100 to help with gas prices. Clinton is offering us around $30 maybe.

So you put these two plans next to each other, which is better?

by SFValues 2008-05-03 05:42PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Truck drivers would have saved several thousands of dollars from the tax holiday.  Just because you and most people drive up the street to go to work, some people actually make their living in their cars and end up driving thousands of miles a week.

You should start thinking about other people more and put down the Obama Kool-Aide.  You've had enough. Trust me.

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 05:46PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

I make my living in my car. And nothing about Clintons plan guarantees anybody anything.

Just because you lower the tax does it mean that oil companies bring down the prices.

And I thought the windfall profits tax was going towards green technologies.

by SFValues 2008-05-03 05:49PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Also, don;t give me a "Gas Tax Holiday".

Give me a "People Using the Idiotic Kool-Aide Attack Holiday".

by SFValues 2008-05-03 05:50PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

Truck drivers won't save anything when oil companies raise prices to meet the increased demand.  A windfall tax will not offset this, and may actually lead to even higher end-user prices.

If we are LUCKY, a windfall tax can head off the inevitable loss of jobs.

There is good reason not a single economist has come out in support of this plan.  Talk about drinking kool aid!

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-03 05:51PM | 0 recs
THIS is why I support BHO...

For once we have a candidate, who win or loose speaks to Americans like adults.  

If getting elected means advocating Republican policies that don't make sense, then frankly, what's the point of getting elected?

I want someone who can effectively explain why the positions of the Democratic party reflect mainstream American values and common sense.  Not someone who takes asinine positions, like this gas tax holiday, because they hold Americans (or their own rhetorical skill) in so little regard that they adopt the next best strategy of failing to differentiate themselves.  It is this thinking that got us the Iraq war (and no, Hillary was not alone in this failure of leadership, which I believe lost us congress in 2002), the defense of marriage act and the patriot act, just to name a few.

And for the record, Al Gore WON.

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-03 05:47PM | 0 recs
Re: THIS is why I support BHO...

He's not president is he?

It should have never been close.

I agree he should have been president, but the Dem party and the Gore campaign acted like incompetent fools.

HRC would have never left the state like that with a "thank you very much".

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 06:07PM | 0 recs
Re: THIS is why I support BHO...

Nor would Obama

by SFValues 2008-05-03 06:10PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters petulant

BULL! People are well aware how useless this will be. EVERYONE is aware of how useless this will be, and when gas actually DOES hit $4.00 a gallon, nobody will care.

by vcalzone 2008-05-03 07:48PM | 0 recs
wait, WHAT?

So, Clinton "scored political points" through a roundly panned economic proposal by uniting with Republicans against her Democratic colleagues in Congress and with John F'ing McCain?

You actually like the "sell everything and everyone down the river to win" approach?  That means that you, like Mark Penn, are a total asshole.

by hekebolos 2008-05-03 05:54PM | 0 recs
Re: wait, WHAT?

I am giving you a 1.  That's a 2 for your first, totally true and relevant point, and a zero for the personal attack of calling the previous commenter an asshole.  (Calling Mark Penn and asshole, however is perfectly legitimate.)

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-03 05:58PM | 0 recs
yeah, sure

I went over the top.  But seeing someone overtly espouse that mentality makes me a little angry.

by hekebolos 2008-05-03 06:07PM | 0 recs
Re: wait, WHAT?

I don;t like troll rating people, but lets keep it clean.

by SFValues 2008-05-03 06:01PM | 0 recs
Re: wait, WHAT?

Its people like you that make this party the incompetent, sorry-excuse for an election machine.

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 06:09PM | 0 recs
no, wrong

it's people with your "do the immediately politically expedient below-the-belt thing" that caused the party to shrivel up and die during your heroine's husband's presidency, and I'm working my ass off to make sure that you and yours don't get another chance to use this style of Republican-lite politics to put us back in the same hole.

by hekebolos 2008-05-03 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: no, wrong

FACT: Bill Clinton is the first Democrat to be re-elected since FDR!

Its a matter of getting elected and then re-elected.  If you don't want to play the game, then for goodness sake, get out of the way and let those who relish the fight do their thing.

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 07:31PM | 0 recs
Re: no, wrong

you don't get it, do you?  What good does it do to win if you sell out your principles?  That's what has 25% of the Republican party furious and threatening to stay home with McCain, because they don't believe he'll adhere to Republican principles.

I don't need Democrats in office who think that lobbyists are real people, and who try to push stupid Republican policies like a gas tax.

People like you think that all we have to do is say whatever it takes to win the presidency, and then everything will be fine.  No, it won't be fine.  You govern how you campaign, which is why the country and its laws got moved to the right during Clinton's presidency.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 07:47PM | 0 recs
Re: no, wrong

Just take a look at how quickly any and all good done by Bill Clinton was undone by Bush. What was it, a year? Two?

by vcalzone 2008-05-03 07:52PM | 0 recs
Re: no, wrong

what good?  This is the amazing thing with you people.  You think Bush did it all in just 18 months?  That everything was fantastic under Clinton and everything just came totally undone by Bush in just over a year?

Get real.  The Enronization and corporate takeover of America was solidified under the Clintons.  The Greenspan asset bubbles in stocks and housing ran up under Clinton, not Bush.  Income inequality went up under Clinton by massive amounts.

Many of the problems we are dealing with today--the asset bubbles, the financialization of the economy, the massive income inequality, the massive debt burdens of many Americans, the high costs of tuition, etc.--got way, way worse under Clinton.

Bush just exacerbated it all with tax cuts for the wealthy and a hugely stupid, reckless, immoral war and a complete lack of regard for national infrastructure.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 07:58PM | 0 recs
Re: no, wrong

You do yourself no favors by assuming I disagree with you. There WERE good things that happened... WHILE Clinton was still carefully manning the wheel. Once he stopped, it became apparent that most of his policies had no positive lasting effect.

by vcalzone 2008-05-03 08:33PM | 0 recs
Re: no, wrong

ok, I hear you.  Sorry to have misunderstood.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-04 02:14AM | 0 recs
last time I checked

Hillary is selling out Democratic principles and still...LOSING.  So given the fact that she can't even win by playing dirty, why do you support her "lie to win" strategy?

by hekebolos 2008-05-03 08:22PM | 0 recs
Re: last time I checked

Why can't Obama win?  Have you ever asked yourself that?

Why can't he close the deal?

Here he is, puttering along.  

Here is your hero, the alleged Democratic Party fighter (who, funny, IS THE ONLY ONE IN THIS RACE TO VOTE FOR DICK CHENEY'S ENERGY BILL), who can't close the deal.  If the magic is in standing there and "speaking truth", as you assume he is doing, why can't he close the deal?

Why are the people now rejecting him?  If you think he is telling the truth and that's all it takes, why is the public rejecting him??????

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 08:38PM | 0 recs
you're amazing

what is it with this "closing the deal" talking point?  So, unless Obama wins every single contest, he doesn't deserve to win?  The question isn't why Obama "can't close the deal", the question is, "why is Hillary...LOSING?"

Which she is.  And she will lose in North Carolina, and possibly Indiana.

Your double-standard is pathetic.  If Hillary wins a contest, it's, "see, she can win!"  And if Obama wins, it's, "well, Obama can't deliver a knockout blow!"

It's really, really pathetic.

by hekebolos 2008-05-03 09:19PM | 0 recs
Re: wait, WHAT?

No, the party is not in shambles because of people like us, it is in shambles because of people people who aren't as articulate and charismatic as Bill Clinton who do absolutely NOTHING to make themselves appear better in terms of policy.

by vcalzone 2008-05-03 07:51PM | 0 recs
Re: wait, WHAT?

right.  Clinton was fantastic.  It was the fault of the Democrats downballot from his stink charisma that they all lost and the Party was demoralized.

There's more to life than just putting a "D" in the White House, you know.  The person in the White House should actually accomplish, you know, DEMOCRATIC things while in office.  And help, rather than hurt, Democrats downballot from himself.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 08:01PM | 0 recs
Re: wait, WHAT?

LOL! You ARE a fighter, aren't you? I was saying that Bill Clinton's policies lacked bite just like the ones Kerry and Gore ran on. It amazed people that those policies didn't catch on. Because nobody understood that Bill Clinton's success had everything to do with Bill Clinton. He could have been the next FDR if he'd have not believed so strongly in triangulation.

by vcalzone 2008-05-03 08:37PM | 0 recs
Re: wait, WHAT?

now that I can agree with.  The guy's a real natural.  It's a shame, really.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-04 02:14AM | 0 recs
So much for progressive idealism.

I used to agree that Machiavellian and cynical tactics were called for to win the White House for the Democrats, until I saw those tactics turned against the Democratic Party's core constituencies.

When you misinform your own base in an effort to win the presidency, you're not building a solid foundation for change; you're just building a foundation for continued manipulation in which only the politicians, their wealthiest contributors and their commission-paid ad men are the beneficiaries.

by Manic Lawyer 2008-05-03 06:34PM | 0 recs
Well said

She has chosen to embrace political depravity of the worst kind.

by Bee 2008-05-03 06:55PM | 0 recs
Re: So much for progressive idealism.

bravo.  perfectly said.  The betrayal of Democratic principles doesn't stop on the campaign trail.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 07:48PM | 0 recs
Let's drop the &quot;vote for McCain&quot; BS

... and just agree to stay home if our chosen candidate doesn't get the nomination.

No reason to add insult to injury.

by Tatan 2008-05-03 04:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Let's drop the &quot;vote for McCain&quot; BS

Or vote Green, at least.

It depends on whether you're in a swing state or not.  I'm in Illinois, so my vote doesn't matter; it's the home state of both democratic candidates.

But don't vote for McCain.  If McCain gets in, people will die unnecessarily, through a never-ending war, through crushing poverty brought about by failed Republican economic policies, or through a lack of health care access brought about by Republican indifference.

A vote for McCain is a vote for death and despair.

by MattHucke 2008-05-03 05:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Let's drop the &quot;vote for McCain&quot; BS
It's about "Purity", my dear.
Obviously the diarist is the purest of the pure.
I would never think to ask him/her to get a speck of dirt on his/her hands.
by johnnygunn 2008-05-03 05:45PM | 0 recs
I noticed that one of your tags..is

'death grip on the Democratic party'

why did you write that?

by architek 2008-05-03 04:59PM | 0 recs
Re: I noticed that one of your tags..is

I know, right!

Many Obama supporters still seem to think that Clinton is the establishment's choice, when Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi are working in his favor and it looks like he'll come away with a majority of Congressional support (or at least close to a majority).

They fail to see that the burden is on Obama to actually WIN.  Why can't he close the deal, with all that support in Washington?

Seems like the people don't want him because he has the stink of loser all over him.  Unlike office-holding Dems who seem to have a battered wife syndrome, the people actually want to win.

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 05:07PM | 0 recs
Re: I noticed that one of your tags..is

So Howard Dean is the party establishment. Fan-freaking-tastic.

by vcalzone 2008-05-03 07:54PM | 0 recs
Re: I noticed that one of your tags..is

When I say "death grip" on the party, what I mean is that they would rather kill the party than release their grip on it.

That is what is happening right now. They will sink the entire general election rather than let the party slip away from them.

by alvernon 2008-05-04 01:29AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

I'm sure there are plenty on both sides who feel the way you do, but what about the gas tax has so got you so riled up?

by ChitownDenny 2008-05-03 04:59PM | 0 recs
Relax. She isn't going to win.

by dystopianfuturetoday 2008-05-03 05:00PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

I strongly disagree.  No matter what, John McCain must not be allowed anywhere near the economy or the red button.  Under no circumstances.

That having been said, Clinton's position on the "gas tax holiday" should give Democrats everywhere real pause as to just what other principles she's willing to sell down the river in the name of "victory".

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:00PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

Blab blab blab.  HRC is not a real democrat.  She will sell you down the river. Come on give it a rest.  Do you guys have anything but smear HRC and the Clintons?

david

by giusd 2008-05-03 05:13PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

It's not a smear.  It's the truth.

They sold the party down the river.  they sold income equality down the river.  They screwed up the possibility of implementing healthcare reform for 15 years.  They sold the poor down the river under the guise of "welfare reform", and sold the manufacturing sector down the river under the guise of "NAFTA."  They sold the LGBT community down the river with the Defense of Marriage Act.  They used every Republican talking point in the book.

Most importantly, they kept on Alan F'ing Greenspan as Fed Chief and racked up huge asset bubbles benefiting the rich and those who own stocks and houses at the expense of all the rest of us.

The Party suffered huge losses during Bill's tenure.

And then Hillary voted for war in Iraq--and then again in Iran.

They sell us out every chance they get.  The only reason I'll ever vote for a Clinton is to disallow a Republican from getting an office--but never otherwise if I can possibly help it.  I don't like being stabbed in the back.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:38PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

What is it you are bringing to the table here other than personal frustration and anger?  What are your offerings to help solve this situation?

Only smears on the candidate we believe in.  Why don't you go make some phone calls or GOTV for your candidate instead?

Your methodology only re-enforces my belief that the "hope, change, and bringing people together" meme is nothing but words.  Here again, you set the example for your man, and he may be better than his supporters, but I doubt it.  He has shown a lack of leadership in truly bringing people together.

Why don't you just admit it, or else leave us alone?  Do you really think your posts are going to change one single vote for him given your tone of voice and your accusations (which seem taken directly out of the "Right-wing Conspiracy 101" book we've all been spoon fed by Repubs for more than 16 years now?

Wake up man.  Ours has become a short attention span society, and Idol-seeking society.  We've forgotten that experience is an asset, not a liability.  Hillary has layed out her plans, and they are far from anything Bush or Cheney would have EVER written or promoted, and they are far more detailed than any of Obama's are at this point.

I don't know what it will take for us to look long-term here.  Obama promises things, but he seems to either delay or cave in under pressure.  He's becoming tired, while Hillary is poised and energetic, working twice as hard for every vote.

I really don't get it.  And, btw., I'm a naturalized European (German) here for almost 40 years.

by Gabriele Droz 2008-05-03 05:57PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

I'm pissed with the Clintons and with the DLC, that's why.  This battle is not just between Democrats and Republicans--it's a battle for the soul of the Democratic Party.

It's a battle to take it away from the sort of people who think we need to triangulate, who think that NAFTA and welfare and the V-chip and Alan Greenspan and asset bubbles and playing it safe and "winning big states" instead of going for fifty states, and supporting the likes of Harold Ford over the likes of Howard Dean.

This isn't a positive campaign between two great candidates.  Not for me.  This is a campaign between a Democrat who trying to do something ELSE, and the same old Carville/McAuliffe/Harold Ford/Mark Penn/Clinton DLC Democrats of the past.

It's not a campaign against the corporatist policies of Bush--it's a campaign against the corporatist policies of both Bush and Clinton, now and in the past.

Occasionally, I get tired of the bullshit and feel the need to step up and say something to rattle the echo chamber and remind people of why lots of us aren't just voting for Obama, but specifically and pointedly against Clinton.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 06:07PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

I hear you, and understand your frustrations about the overall state of the US.  However, I believe right now is the worst time of all to start the "revolution" we all wish for, me included.  Right now we just need to stop the bleeding.  Again, I'm thinking long-term.  The Republicans are still too powerful for us to overthrow them.  I truly do not believe Obama could do this.  I think he would triangulate far more with the Republicans than Hillary ever would.

She's one of a kind - a kind we've never seen before (therefore the animosity).  She's strong, determined, experienced, and smart as hell.  And she knows how to fight the Republicans far more than Obama.  Se will stop the bleeding, and give us a chance to look further ahead and take it from there.  I truly believe that, with all my heart.

And, like you, (I'm 56 and have been a radical liberal and environmentalist all of my life) I too want these things to happen far faster than they are happening.  But I've also learned from the 60s and 70s, and while my beliefs are still the same, my experience over the years has taught me that if you want to move forward, you need to do it smart and incrementally.

Hillary has the stuff and the belief to work for the poor and the middle class, universal health, taking on big corporations, and so on.  And she has the know-how to do it.  In the past, she was not in a position to go all out, but as president, I have no doubt she'd raise hell, finally liberated from the political restraints put on her for so many years.

I think she's done pretty well, given all the shit she's had to endure.

by Gabriele Droz 2008-05-03 06:41PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

this says it all: "The Republicans are still too powerful to overthrow them."

We're living in different worlds, obviously.  You see what happened in Louisiana today?

The Republicans are in serious, serious, serious trouble.  America is ready for progressive change.  We don't need DLC politics anymore--if we ever did.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 07:31PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

Being 'pissed' is counterproductive.  And it's sad that you are an 'anti-voter'.  But I guess it does explain alot....

by Mags 2008-05-03 06:55PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

not anti-voter.  Anti-corporate DLC.  Unless you think being pissed at Bush makes you "anti-voter".

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 07:32PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

You said you weren't for Obama you were against Clinton...what don't you get?  That is the Anti-vote

by Mags 2008-05-03 07:46PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

Yeah, and I think it would be safe to say I'm not as much "pro-Democrat" as I am "anti-Republican".  In case you haven't noticed, the Dems haven't exactly been doing so hot in standing up for themselves and for progressive values.

I work hard for the Democratic Party because I'm smart enough to realize that the only way to create effective change is by changing the Party from the ground up, just like the movement conservatives threw out the Rockefeller Republicans.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-04 02:20AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

Get oveer yourself already ~ thereisnoriver!

by Mags 2008-05-03 05:21PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

there is no river.  ???  Must be dementia...

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:37PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry .....

Um, you've been writing anti-Hilary comments for a while now, so I kinda doubt that the gas-tax holiday has anything to do with your sudden love for McCain.  More likely it's just a convenient rag to wipe your pro-Obama nose on.

Oh, and as for your pseudo-apology here:  it comes off as childish and petulant.  That was your intention, right?  

by KathleenM1 2008-05-03 05:00PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry .....

Laugh. Out. Loud.

by MKyleM 2008-05-03 05:02PM | 0 recs
It's ok.

Hillary > John > Barack

Based on most general election polls, it seems the nation is in accordance.  Hence, it's not hard to see why so many Hillary supporters would fall to their second choice of McCain rather than endorsing Barack Obama.  

by BPK80 2008-05-03 05:03PM | 0 recs
Re: It's ok.

Did i miss something because based on the polls I have seen great deal of BO supporters say they would not vote for HRC.  Am i wrong.

So is this correct.

Barack > John > HRC?

And i dont agree.  When we get a candidate the party will support that person.

david

by giusd 2008-05-03 05:15PM | 0 recs
Re: It's ok.

Hillary >= Barack >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John

That's how I see it anyway.  All of you people who wouldn't vote for the other Dem candidate need a reality check.  Do you want 2-3 more Alitos on the supreme court?  Do you want to stay in Iraq for 100 more years?  Do you want millions of Americans to remain without health care?  Do you want to keep the Bush tax cuts and further send our country into fiscal oblivion?  

Is the answer to any of these questions "no"?  Then let me ask a follow up question.  What the f--- are you thinking even considering voting for McCain?

by Fuzzy Dunlop 2008-05-03 05:17PM | 0 recs
Re: It's ok.

No on all of the above.

But there's a distaste I have for Barack Obama that may make it impossible for me to vote for him in November.  

I never thought I would say this but if Obama wins the nomination, I will have an open ear for John McCain.  Not a definite vote, but I'll be paying close attention.  

I don't know if it will matter though.  I live in the East Coast part of Pennsylvania and I don't think there's much I could do to prevent this state from voting McCain if Obama wins.  People really have a visceral dislike for him here.  And it's not "racism"; we liked him until his masquerade of "hope and change" slipped and showed a charlatan during the PA primary.  Insulting the state didn't help.  People still joke about that in Pennsylvania.  At least once a day, I hear a joke about how we're so "bitter" here.  

by BPK80 2008-05-03 08:25PM | 0 recs
Re: It's ok.

I love the idea that Obama is the charlatan here, when the HRC supporters claim it is some kind of virtue to lie to the voters. Hey, that's electoral politics, right? The voters are dumb, and you don't lead them or educate them, you take advantage of their ignorance.

Well, that's why I won't vote for Clinton. But I already knew her to be a liar, so this is not news.

by alvernon 2008-05-04 01:32AM | 0 recs
Re: It's ok.

Show me a politician who has never "lied" to voters and maybe you'll have a case.  

by BPK80 2008-05-04 08:19PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

Then you should not vote for Obama if he wins the nomination either. He voted three times in IL for a gas tax holiday. What's the difference when he does it?

I guess you'll be voting for McCain this November in order to be consistent and principled.

by LadyEagle 2008-05-03 05:14PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

He explained that. He said he voted for it in IL then it turned out to not work so well so he is now opposed. That's what I want in a politician. Someone who learns from their mistakes.

by Becky G 2008-05-03 05:31PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

Come on.  If HRC said that BO and his crowd would be going nuts calling HRC a liar.  He was for it before he was against it.  Come on.

the gas tax is just another excuse to smear HRC.  Let call it what it is.

david

by giusd 2008-05-03 05:39PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

Just like he couldn't disown Rev. Wright until he did it. This is what I call a poll tested politician. "we are the change we have been waiting for."

by LadyEagle 2008-05-03 06:10PM | 0 recs
That's Not Fair

Hillary flipped flopped too

Here's what Clinton said at her October 8, 2000 debate with Lazio: "[O]ne of my fundamental disagreements during this campaign with my opponent was when he called for the repeal of the gas tax. Now, the gas tax is one of those few taxes that New York actually gets more money from Washington than we send. And we are totally reliant on it to do things like finishing I-86 in the Southern Tier, or the fast- ferry harbor works up in Rochester, as well as the work we need to do here in the city. So you can count on me to support infrastructure."
And here's a June 28, 2000 Newsday clip: "Campaigning in the Hudson Valley, Lazio continued a two-day assault on Clinton's support of maintaining the 18-cent federal gas tax and then used tough rhetoric to declare that 'trust' and 'character' were campaign issues during an evening fundraiser in Manhattan that raised more that $1 million. Clinton, meanwhile, lashed out at Lazio's plan to repeal 4.3 cents of the gas tax, calling it 'a bad deal for New York and a potential bonanza for the oil companies.'"

"During a visit to a shopping mall in the Buffalo suburbs, Clinton said that 'the gas tax is one of the few exceptions where we actually get more money back than we send to Washington.'"

-msnbc

by hootie4170 2008-05-03 05:49PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

I will not vote for BO.  If the Dems lose in this race I will blame it on his lame attemp to back door this primary by intimindation at early primaries and his cult.  Trying to hold the DNC to his wilding inflated ability to "register" young voters.  If the SD choice to pick BO as the canidate they will loss more than this election.

by orion1 2008-05-03 05:15PM | 0 recs
I made a comment earlier

Which was clearly snark... but has been hidden for some reason. Could someone unhide it. I'll be happy to add a snark tag to it if it's unclear.

by Tatan 2008-05-03 05:16PM | 0 recs
WOW!

Boy, you must really want to 'denounce and reject' Hillary if the gas tax holiday is all it takes to push you over the edge.....I don't get it!

by Mags 2008-05-03 05:18PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

HRC's gas tax position is a perfect example of Clintonian triangulation -- run against your own party when it holds Congress.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-03 05:19PM | 0 recs
Things will look and feel different

... on down the road.  Whether it's Obama or Hillary who wins the nomination, the "loser" will step up to the plate and say "Play ball!" and join forces to beat McCain.  

I don't like a lot of Obama's tactics and attacks.  Obama supporters don't like Hillary's tactics and attacks.  We must ALL remember the goal - select a candidate who can beat the socks off John McCain and END the Republican George Bush wrong direction!

I personally think that HRC can do that, but if she doesn't win the nom, I'm voting Obama.

In the past I liked McCain.  In the past I got angry and said I'll never vote for Obama.  That's ALL changed!

BTW, the diarist doesn't like the "gas tax holiday" as a gimmick.  Personally, change and hope could be viewed as a gimmick.  I was too old when at work everyone kept talking "Change is Great", "Change is Good" .... posters everywhere, people talking about change like it was a new concept AND as if to say that all change is good.  Well, W was a big change - 'tweren't good IMHO!  

I know all about change anyway - I change everyday on the week - underwear, socks ....

I lost my Mom last year - big change, not a good one!  I had to euthanize a horse - big change, not a good one!  Change is just change!  Sometimes it's for the good, sometimes not!  So much for my 1-1/4 cents (gone down from yesterday's 2 cents)!

by Southern Mouth 2008-05-03 05:26PM | 0 recs
Don't do it.

I remember, just before South Carolina when I heard Clinton give her LBJ/MLK comment and I thought to myself, wow, she should not speak off the cuff, that statement could come across as insensitive.  I was an Obama supporter, but I still thought that Clinton would close it up on Super Tuesday with massive wins and even though I didn't prefer her, I could vote for her if she was the nominee.  Just like I couldn't support Kerry during the primary because of his vote on AUMF I couldn't support Clinton during the primary.

Then Bill opened his mouth after South Carolina and I was really offended.  And then I saw the Clinton campaign accusing Obama of playing the race card because people were offended by what came out of Bill's mouth.  I said there and then I can't vote for that woman.  I can't reward this type of politics.  It was only made worse by their support of lawsuits in Nevada.

Finally my girlfriend got through to me and reminded me that this is bigger than my wounded sense of fair play and truth.  She may very well win the nomination with tactics of personal destruction, but I know that she also won't appoint neocon judges to the supreme court.  I know that she won't keep Bush's tax cuts permanent.  I know that she won't continue this misguided war (or at least I hope she won't).  And that is more important to me than her playing fair.

I may not help Hillary get elected, I'll be rooting for Obama, but if she wins the nomination I'll have to hold my nose and vote for her for this country, and for the kids I hope to have some day.  She would be the lesser of two evils.

by shalca 2008-05-03 05:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Don't do it.

Obama did play the race card.

by Mags 2008-05-03 06:58PM | 0 recs
the dishonesty of HRC supporters on race

This is one of the things that offends me about HRC supporters.

It's pretty clear to objective observers that HRC's campaign and supporters were the ones that tried to polarize Dem voters along racial lines.

To state the fucking obvious, there are more "White" voters in Dem primaries than Black voters. So Obama wouldn't want to polarize voters this way in a one-on-one contest. It makes no fucking sense.

But HRC supporters aren't content to give BS explainations why HRC's George Wallacisms weren't really meant to polarize Dem voters.

HRC supporters have the audacity to claim that Obama's campaign has engaged in race-baiting.

This is so offensive and dishonest it really bugs me.

by Carl Nyberg 2008-05-03 08:26PM | 0 recs
Hard choice

Since you're going to vote for McCain who's supporting the gas tax suspension without even paying for it, should we feel gleeful that somebody shows signs of desperation or should we just wait a change of mind sometime closer to November?

by eumc 2008-05-03 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish
Well -
It looks like Hillary Clinton won't need your vote.
Unlike Obama who doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning the general election, Clinton may very well profit from the pouters and whiners who leave the party.  I doubt many of the latter will vote for McCain - and they are certainly welcome to vote for McKinney or not vote at all.  But Clinton will point to all the pouters and whiners as evidence of her mainstream appeal - -
and win big.
by johnnygunn 2008-05-03 05:39PM | 0 recs
what makes HRC appealing to mainstream?

Who are these mainstream voters?

How do they feel about the federal gov't?

What do they see as being wrong with the federal gov't?

by Carl Nyberg 2008-05-03 08:21PM | 0 recs
Bwah ha ha ha ha!

:D

by soyousay 2008-05-03 05:40PM | 0 recs
Bitter Diarist

This diarist sounds very bitter. I don't think it has anything to do with gas tax, and everything to do with the fact that his candidate isn't doing very well in the polls; just my opinion.

by pollbuster 2008-05-03 05:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Bitter Diarist

or maybe it's just 'gas'?

by Mags 2008-05-03 06:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Bitter Diarist

ROFLOL

by pollbuster 2008-05-03 07:46PM | 0 recs
alvernon,

I plan to vote for Obama if he gets the nomination, and I plan to pray every day he loses.  (I am confident God would answer my prayer in the affirmative.)

by Beltway Dem 2008-05-03 05:47PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry

This "apology" comes off remarkably snide.

by zcflint05 2008-05-03 05:51PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry

I'm so very sorry you feel that way.

by alvernon 2008-05-04 01:34AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm Sorry You Are So Whatever -

With an Obama nomination -
I will really look forward to a fraud and racketeering investigation -
Especially after Rezko is convicted and sings.

May 03, 2008
The CBS TV affiliate in Chicago is speculating that Tony Rezko may try to cut a deal with prosecutors in his ongoing corruption trial. If so, it could spell trouble for Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich and possibly even Barack Obama.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008 /05/a_rezko_plea_deal.html

Wouldn't that be "special".

by johnnygunn 2008-05-03 05:53PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm Sorry You Are So Whatever -
When all else fails, bring up Rezko.
How desperate. We know how frustrating hillarys' loss is, but the soon you start working your way through this grieving process, the sooner you can support the Dem. nominee. BARACK OBAMA
by venician 2008-05-03 06:24PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm Sorry You Are So Whatever -
Pssst -
The trial comes to a close in a week or two.
Six months in the Pensacola penthouse looks a whole lot better
than ten to twenty in the slammer.
Rezko is warming up to sing his aria.
by johnnygunn 2008-05-03 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

this diary is inane.

by canadian gal 2008-05-03 06:16PM | 0 recs
Petulant?

Wow, and to think I received three anonymous postings (moderator must approve, I didn't lol) to my blog, which nobody ever looks at, just last night, that called me petulant!

Wow.

by SluggoJD 2008-05-03 06:33PM | 0 recs
Ah, cheer up, sport.

Go have a glass of wine, you'll feel better.

by sricki 2008-05-03 06:36PM | 0 recs
Then that must make you a republican.

I doubt you'll find any Clinton supporter cheering McCain to win. See, most of us see it as a dilema, not liking either Obama or McCain. So actually happily cheering McCain on is your feeling and your's alone.  Besides, I read that Obama has actually voted for gas holidays 3 times before he voted against them.  Does that make a difference to you, or are you just looking for an excuse to be happy for a McCain win?

by Scotch 2008-05-03 07:07PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

The general election is going to be decided by blue-collar white voters.

by zenful6219 2008-05-03 07:39PM | 0 recs
As for me

I will not vote for McCain.  That, I'm sure of.

If Barack has won the nomination fairly, with MI and FL accomodated, I will vote for him.  If he has won unfairly, I may or may not - I'm honestly not sure.

What I can promise I will not do is write a juvenile diary like this one when that time comes. :)

by bobbank 2008-05-03 07:39PM | 0 recs
Wow

That is a pretty inane and idiotic choice to make over one issue.  I feel sorry for you if you are really that myopic.

by JustJennifer 2008-05-03 08:16PM | 0 recs
So you

are a child and very STUPID.

To NOT vote for the Dem nominee is STUPID!

Supreme Court!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by kevin22262 2008-05-03 08:52PM | 0 recs
I hate everything the Clinton's stand for

But there is no way I would vote for McCain just to spite them. It would make me nauseous, but I would vote for her before I ever consider staying home, or even worse, pulling the lever for McCain.

Think about it - the next president will most likely nominate 2-3 supreme court justices. Roberts will be there for another 25-30 years, Alito roughly the same, Thomas for another 20 years. Ginsburg and Stevens are definitely gone, and if a Republican wins, Scalia may also bow out just so he can be sure that a GOP president gets to pick his successor.

Now, so long as McCain choses conservative judges who have a good reputation, there is no way that the Senate is going to block his nominees. The ABA will give them the stamp of approval and we will have not only a supreme court packed with conservative judges, but almost as important, 4 years of the important but mostly anonymous district/appellate level judges being chosen by McCain. And make no mistake about it, McCain is going to owe the wingnuts BIG TIME, and the one area that he can pay them back with little repurcussion is through judicial appointments.  

by highgrade 2008-05-03 11:37PM | 0 recs
Re: I hate everything the Clinton's stand for

Regarding the Supreme Court justices, I know it is an awful thing. Yet the HRC supporters are tearing down their party's nominee every day, which risks that very outcome.

Like I said, at least if McCain wins we will have a chance to start again in four years. I just don't want to be a member of a political party controlled by that woman, Sen. Clinton. I will not vote for her, not a single time, never.

by alvernon 2008-05-04 01:38AM | 0 recs
You are a moron

abortion, birth control, religious freedom, science, and more will all be in the hands of a Supreme Court shaped by the next President.  If you choose to petulantly support McCain, because your candidate loses, well, my children, my children's children, and my children's children's children, all forced to live in the world you helped create and maintain, all speak together, in voices united, to say "fuck you."

by dhonig 2008-05-04 04:25AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

I cant stand Hillary, but I will not root for McCain to win. I live in GA, so I have said in the past that I would not vote for Hillary out of principle way before the election started(so this is not a sour grapes stance). But if GA turns out to be close, I would have to consider voting for the democratic nominee regardless of who is nominated because I do not want to see McCain elected. This point is moot anyway since I will vote 100% for the DEm nominee as I signed a pledge when I ran for delegate.

by Pravin 2008-05-04 04:59AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

I think Hillary's gas tax idea is a GOOD idea. It helps middle class workers, those that are forced to drive long distances to/from work, those that drive for work, truck drivers - basically middle class families.

She has never said that this is THE answer to our energy problems, but wants to provide relief for middle class.

Great Idea. And I love that she pays for it by hitting oil co with windfall profit tax.

by nikkid 2008-05-04 09:04AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sorry I called Hillary supporters childish

You are exactly the kind of person she is aiming at with this proposal. You are not one of the elites and you are not a quote-unquote expert. You are not one of the economists who unanimously oppose the idea. You are not one of the many progressive Dems in Congress who have already spoken out in opposition to this idea.

This is the point I'm trying to make. If Hillary wins with a coalition of voters like you, what's the point of even being a Democrat?

by alvernon 2008-05-04 12:29PM | 0 recs

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