The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Velcro Off?

Yep - this story's still got strong legs under it.  Seems everyone's talking about this today online and face-to-face.  Thought we might take a look at a few of the articles out there in this evening's write-up.  Before we turn to that though I thought folks might like to see Hillary's latest ad, which just started running in Pennsylvania.  Take a look...

Pennsylvania

Ok first up - Tom Vanden Brook put up a decent article in today's USA Today about Sen. Obama's comments out in San Francisco last week.  Take a look...

Clinton brands Obama's words as 'elitist, divisive' Says rival's remarks leave him open to Republican attack

"You don't have to think back too far to remember that good men running for president were viewed as being elitist and out of touch with the values and the lives of millions of Americans," Clinton said.

In 2004, President Bush's re-election campaign used images of Sen. John Kerry windsurfing while vacationing at Cape Cod in TV ads to brand him as an East Coast liberal.

"I think it's very critical that the Democrats really focus in on this and make it clear that we are not (elitist). We are going to stand up and fight for all Americans," Clinton said.

Republicans could use Obama's comment that "bitter" working-class voters "cling to guns or religion" to portray Democrats as culturally elite and out of touch with their concerns, said Sen. Evan Bayh, an Indiana Democrat and Clinton supporter.

"I'm afraid that this gives the Republicans a stick to beat us with," Bayh said on CNN's Late Edition.

Steven Schier, a political science professor at Carleton College in Northfield, Minn., said Obama's comments, and his attempt to explain them, tend to alienate people, particularly working-class voters who may be crucial to the election. "The problem is comments like these put distance between the candidate and the voter," Schier said. "When you condescend to people, you don't bind them to you."

Next one's from Carrie Budoff Brown (Politico) and points to a real chink in BO's armor.  He's built his run for the White House on his eloquence and soaring rhetoric.  One or two great speeches and he's off to the races folks.  And yet... for a guy who's so good with words, he really stepped in it during that $1,000 per head fundraiser last week.  And this wasn't the first time he's blown it with workin' folks...

Barack Obama's flip side revealed

Barack Obama's remarks on small town America were an off-key note from a politician who has rocketed to the top by being brilliantly on-key.

At the same time, the comments were not a total departure: On the campaign trail, Obama can reveal moments of aloofness or tone deaf reactions that belie his image as the epitome of polished.

Then his donors at this $1,000 per ticket fundraiser at the home of developer Alex Mehran asked him what they'd find in Pennsylvania when they went out to campaign for him. He said hey had to work to do.

"What I found to be most revealing was that these remarks were made several thousand miles from us, at a very expensive fundraising campaign event in a very upscale location where he did not think any of us were going to hear what he would say," said Harrisburg Mayor Stephen R. Reed, a Clinton supporter. "It invites the question of what else does this candidate think about all the different people who make up our redder, diverse nation."

At a New Hampshire roundtable in December, Obama betrayed little emotion as one participant sobbed while describing her situation: She lost her job on her 65th birthday, struggles to afford her $2,900 monthly prescription drug costs, and lives in 30-year-old trailer where the thermostat is set at 64 degrees

At the same event, he later mentioned how the success of his book had allowed him to buy a big house. He was making a point about inequities in the tax system, but the story felt misplaced in the midst of such dire tales.

Obama used to tell folks in Iowa about a phone conversation with his wife, who said this year was the right time to run for president because they are "still almost normal." In other words, they not so rich as they might be in a few years - after a term in the senate and money from the book deals.

"Michelle's point was, in eight years from now, 10 years from now, we may still be nice people, but we may be in this orbit where we just don't remember, we don't hear people's voices anymore," Obama explained at the time.

Two women in the Sioux City audience were not impressed.

"That was a mistake," said Lindsay Pelchat, 30. "That was a big mistake." 

"Don't ever forget where you come from," her friend, Paula Yasat, 53, piped in.

"Does that mean in the next election he's already going to start losing sight of the middle class?" Pelchat asked.

The women approached Obama afterward to tell him they remained undecided.

"What do I need to do?" Obama asked, almost disbelieving. "You're really making us work."

This sounds a lot like that more recent encounter with a skeptical voter, when he asked her if he needed to get down on his knees, and then offered her a kiss for her vote.

Sen. Barack Obama approached first overflow in the parking lot outside of the Scranton town hall, and immediately went to Denise Mercuri, a pharmacist from Dunmore who was wearing a Hillary Clinton button. She held an Obama button in her hand, and he asked what he needed to do to get her to wear his instead of his rival's.

"What do I need to do? Do you want me on my knees?" he asked.
He then conceded, keeping with his flirty trend of the day (see earlier report), "I'll give you a kiss."

Poor guy.  They're making him work.  Didn't he realize that running for President would be hard work?

So this all started at a $1,000 per ticket fundraiser at some guy's home?  No press - private home - 300 to 400 of his rich supporters in San Francisco.  No wonder Obama felt comfortable letting it all hang out.  I guess he felt safe in saying that sort of thing knowing there was little or no chance that anyone living in a small town in PA and had fallen on hard times could ever afford to go to anything that cost $1,000.  Seriously - that's a month's worth of mortgage payment / rent, utilities and groceries for a lot of families.  And to think someone could afford to drop that kind of money to spend what - maybe an hour with the anointed one?

Talk about two different Americas guys.

CNN got an exclusive interview with Mayhill Fowler about the event and how she got the scoop...

The talking heads take over at about the 5 minute mark but Mayhill's pretty interesting.

Mike Allen put up a great summary of why the now-famous "cling" comments are going to continue to clobber Obama from here on out.  I won't post the article or all 12 points here (that would be a no-no) but here are a handful - go check out the article for the whole list...

12 reasons 'bitter' is bad for Obama

#2

If you are going to say something that makes you sound like a clueless liberal, don't say it in San Francisco. Obama's views might have been received very differently if he had expressed them in public to Pennsylvania voters, saying he understood and could alleviate their frustrations.

#5

Some hard-working Americans find it insulting when rich elites explain away things dear to their hearts as desperation. It would be like a white politician telling blacks they cling to charismatic churches to compensate for their plight.. And it vindicates centrist Democrats who have been arguing for a decade that their party has allowed itself to look culturally out of touch with the American mainstream.

#7 - 9

It gives the Clinton campaign new arguments for trying to recruit superdelegates, the Democratic elected officials and other insiders who get a vote on the nomination. A moderate politician from a swing district, for example, might not want to have to explain support for a candidate who is being hammered as a liberal. And Clinton's agents can claim that for all the talk of her being divisive, Obama has provided plenty of fodder to energize Republicans.

It helps Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) frame a potential race against Obama, even though both of them have found support among independents. Now Republicans have a simple, easily repeated line of attack to use against Obama as an out-of-touch snob, as they had with Sen. John F. Kerry after he blundered by commenting about military funding, "I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it."

The comments play directly into an already-established narrative about his candidacy. Clinton supporters have been arguing that Obama has limited appeal beyond upscale

Democrats -- the so-called latte liberals. You can't win red states if people there don't like you. "Elites need to understand that middle-class Americans view values and culture as more important than mere trickery," said Paul Begala, a Clinton backer. "Democrats have to respect their values and reflect their values, not condescend to them as if they were children who've been bamboozled."

Mike Allen over at Politico posted something which pretty much summarizes how BO's acted in the aftermath of this hitting the light of day.  First Obama describes any criticism of his comments as "rich".  Then he admits he could have worded things better.  Later he claims he deeply regretted it if anyone was offended.  Round four and we see him saying he chose his words badly.  Allen wraps it all up with the following...

Radical Re-interpretation. Says it 'may have been clumsy' but he meant it as a compliment." ("What I was saying is that when economic hardship hits in these communities, what people have is- they've got family, they've got their faith., they've got the traditions that have been passed on to them from generation to generation. Those aren't bad things.")

And since that was posted I would add one more... when all else fails - blame Hillary and accuse her of using GOP tactics in how she points out their differences on this point.

Umm... he does realize this is the big show - grown up politics right?  I mean I know he's never faced a tough opponent before but he's old enough to have seen the primary season unfold in years past.  Does he honestly expect us to believe that Dean, Kerry et al treated each other with kid gloves. Or more insulting than that - does he expect us to believe that if things were reversed, that he wouldn't have jumped on this story with everything he's got in his arsenal?

Mickey Kaus posted an interesting take on this over on Slate's site.  He raises a good point in that Obama lumped a reliance on faith with bigotry and intolerance in his San Francisco comments.  At least he went on to clarify that he thought clinging to faith was a good thing.  Take a look at what he said about BO's comments...

What's the Matter With Obama?  The Four Sins of "Cling"

It lumps together things Obama wants us to think he thinks are good (religion) with things he undoubtedly thinks are bad (racism, anti-immigrant sentiment). I suppose it's logically possible to say 'these Pennsylvania voters are so bitter and frustrated that they cling to both good things and bad things,." but the implication is that these are all things he thinks are unfortunate and need explaining (because, his context suggests, they prevent voters from doing the right thing and voting for ... him).

Yes, he's condescending. It's not just that in explaining everyone to everyone Obama winds up patronizing everyone. He doesn't patronize everyone equally. Specifically, he regards the views of these Pennsylvanians as epiphenomena- -byproducts of economic stagnation-- in a way he doesn't regard, say, his own views as epiphenomena. ** Once the Pennsylvanians get some jobs back, they'll change and become as enlightened as Obama the San Franciscans to whom he was talking. That's the clear logic of his argument. Superiority of this sort--not crediting the authenticity and standing of your subject's views--is a violation of social equality, which is a more important value for Americans than money equality. Liiberals tend to lose elections when they forget that.

Now I don't often quote from much of anyone but Paul Krugman at the New York Times, but the last two paragraphs of this column sums everything up quite nicely...

What does this mean for Obama's presidential prospects? He's disdainful of small-town America -- one might say, of bourgeois America. He's usually good at disguising this. But in San Francisco the mask slipped. And it's not so easy to get elected by a citizenry you patronize.

And what are the grounds for his supercilious disdain? If he were a war hero, if he had a career of remarkable civic achievement or public service -- then he could perhaps be excused an unattractive but in a sense understandable hauteur. But what has Barack Obama accomplished that entitles him to look down on his fellow Americans?

Obama said folks are clinging to guns and bibles - called them bitter.  I don't care how hard you try to spin this gang, he comes across as if he's looking down on folks.  So... what exactly has he done that would entitle him to look down upon others?

Tags: 2008 elections, Barack Obama, California, Hillary Clinton, Pennsylvania, president (all tags)

Comments

239 Comments

Re: The Cling Thing...

This things still got strong legs under it - and it'll get under BO's skin between now & the 22nd.

by alegre 2008-04-14 06:58PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

You seem to be enjoying this which is unfortunate.  As an Obama supporter, I was never happy when Hillary flibbed in the event she was the nominee.  Yet, when Obama, who is the probable nominee messes-up, you seem to take great joy in it.

This isn't a game, but people's lives are at stake.  We should start acting like it.

by mefck 2008-04-14 07:01PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

How many doaries on this now?  Talk about clinging.  

by fogiv 2008-04-14 07:06PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

well, maybe you should tell your candidate that. at every appearance, he rehashes the whole thing. he needs to just let it go.

by campskunk 2008-04-14 07:09PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Yeah.  Thanks for the innane comment.  He's pouncing on himself now.  Right.  Brilliant.

by fogiv 2008-04-14 08:50PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

I've never seen someone so insistent on putting his foot in his mouth.  In any other election year he would have long since been out of the race.

My question is:  Why is he still in it?  Is it because of his race that the media is refusing to call him to task for his idiocies?

by switching sides 2008-04-14 11:53PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

no, it's because he's the frontrunner.  Some people seem to have forgotten that.

by shalca 2008-04-15 03:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama- Oh Brother!

The first fresh poll results from Pennsylvania are in since Barack Obama's "bitter" comments about people in small towns exploded as a news story, and the findings could hardly be worse for the Democratic presidential contender.

The new poll by American Research Group -- conducted Friday, Saturday and Sunday -- gave Clinton 57% and Obama 37% (based on interviews with 600 Democrats, the survey has an error margin of plus-or-minus 4 percentage points).

Intriguingly...interviews with voters indicate Obama's tumble in the state has more to do with what the candidate himself has said were ill-chosen words than anything else.

New poll shows Barack Obama tanking in Pennsylvania
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washingt on/2008/04/new-poll-shows.html

by KnowVox 2008-04-15 07:01AM | 0 recs
Backatcha

Her formerly double-digit lead is now just a five-point margin in Pennsylvania, survey finds. The reduced margin makes a win for her there less significant. She trails Obama among Hoosiers...

The survey found the New York senator leading Barack Obama by just 5 percentage points in Pennsylvania, which votes next Tuesday. Such a margin would not give her much of a boost in the battle for the party's nomination.

What is more, the poll found Clinton trails Obama by 5 points in Indiana, another Rust Belt state that should play to her strengths among blue-collar voters.

by bookish 2008-04-15 01:32PM | 0 recs
by bookish 2008-04-15 01:34PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Teh stupid, it burns. Do you think if you keep suggesting that Obama is behind that it will eventually come true?

by bookish 2008-04-15 03:30AM | 0 recs
Look who's sharing notes:

McCain Email, April 15:

...These hard working men and women aren't "bitter". They love their country, their faith, their family and their traditions. They are the heart and soul of this country, the foundation of our strength and the primary authors of its essential goodness - Barack Obama should get to know them.

If Barack Obama is the Democrat nominee in the general election, the American people will have a clear choice between two different visions - Senator Obama's liberal, elitist philosophy and John McCain's faith in the small town values that continue to make America great. John McCain will not forget them or write them off. Neither should Barack Obama.

Hillary, April 14:

Clinton called Obama’s remarks “elitist,” “demeaning” and “out of touch” Saturday morning, and high-powered supporters followed up by claiming the comments would damage everything from Obama’s credibility to his electability in a general election.

Now why would she be sharing notes with McCain? Oh yeah...

The New York senator’s campaign has taken several hits in the last few weeks. She’s trailing by 136 total delegates, and the collapse of talks to hold re-do votes in Michigan and Florida, states she won but that were discounted for violating primary rules, severely jeopardizes her chances of catching up.

This, from Hillary the NAFTA Lovin' Multi-Millionare. Feh.
by jwolf 2008-04-15 04:10AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

What's really sad is that yesterday we had some unbelievably sophomoric comments from McConnell about the Clintons, and Geoff Davis recalled the racist lexicon against Obama, and this is what alegre chooses to talk about. Meanwhile, the person one of these two is going to have to face in the GE is getting nothing but sycophancy and donuts from the press.

alegre, riddle me this: do you work for the Clinton campaign, if so, in what capacity, and are you being paid? I can't help but think that your dedication to Clinton extends only so far as it applies to the election, since you've been silent diary-wise on McConnell, despite being perhaps the most prolific member of this community on all things Clinton.

I hope you'll address this question with the seriousness it deserves. I'm sure you'd want to know if someone from the Obama or McCain camp was influencing the themes/subject matter of MyDD, and I'd like to know your connection to the Clinton campaign in the same vein.

by bookish 2008-04-15 09:06AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Alegre is not affiliated in any way, shape or form with the Clinton campaign, and has stated so numerous times. Like any member of MyDD, she can diary about whatever she chooses.

It's revealing that instead of addressing the pertinent issues Alegre has raised in this diary, you choose to personally attack her, question her motives and demand she write diaries on the topics that interest YOU. These types of attacks do not reflect well upon you or your candidate.

by KnowVox 2008-04-15 10:12AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

How is it attacking someone to ask a question? And where did I demand that she should write certain diaries? I'll answer those both for you since you apparently have a problem with comprehension. It's not, and I didn't.

My comments may not reflect well on me (that's a matter of subjective opinion), but I'd like to know how my question has any reflection on my candidate. I don't hold Hillary responsible for most of the ignorant shit that comes out of the mouths of her supporters, so fuck all if they should do me the disservice.

by bookish 2008-04-15 01:22PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

And by the by, I haven't seen any of these pledges of non-affiliation with the Clinton campaign, so I'm sorry for asking the question. But since you obviously have, please point me to one of them.

by bookish 2008-04-15 01:27PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

TR'd for rating abuse.  Don't hide a comment that you don't agree with.

by Si Ella Puede 2008-04-15 03:13PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Um, that was in response to his for the same, so now you get one.

by bookish 2008-04-15 03:27PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

You are abusing the hide rating.  It is not meant to be used in the manner you are using it.

Suggest troll ratings, which I have used for you.

by Si Ella Puede 2008-04-15 03:43PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

You're being a little ridiculous. The way people have been abusing the ratings system, they basically mean nothing now. See what I just did? Even though you're being sort of a schoolmarm about this, I'm uprating you. Know why? Because the ratings mean nothing anymore, least of all to me.

by bookish 2008-04-15 03:49PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

We disagree on your basic premise here - I think Hillary's the likely nominee.  So why do so many here attack her relentlessly?

by alegre 2008-04-14 07:12PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

It's wrong no matter which candidate is the "victim" of the attack.  I am just disappointed with how you used to be devoted to Sen. Clinton and now you just seem to be devoted to the anti-Obama movement.

by mefck 2008-04-14 07:18PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Wrong.  The devotion is to a candidate who can beat McCain.  That candidate is NOT Obama.  It's about people's lives.  I want to make sure that Obama is not the nominee because if he is, Pres. McCain is a slam dunk.

by Montague 2008-04-15 04:01AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Funny - when the press speak about or show Senator Clinton in a less than complimentary light, it's called the truth, but when it happens to Senator Obama it's an attack? I get REAL confused with this double standard.

by pan230oh 2008-04-15 06:05AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Even the most basic research into comments here in the last 2 months shows that the opposite of your comment is true.  All your candidate has left in her doomed effort is a few more weeks of whining about how everybody is picking on her to match the whining she and the folks around here have been doing for about a month now.

It's pathetic desperation in the face of a firm whooping.  That's why alegre wrote this (and apparently about 852 other articles) about "bittergate".  The polls, when you look at all of them instead of one out lier, show that this issue does NOT have legs and has only a minimal impact.  Alegre is desperate.  A cheerio looks like a life raft when it's all that you can see as you drown in an ocean.

Your candidate is a lost cause.  Try not to lose your dignity too.  Oh, poor Hilary the victim.  She's spent her whole career poking sticks in the eye of the media, but they're jerks for not liking her now.  Nobody lied about Tuzla for her.  In fact, she was warned that her story was false and she stubbornly refused to stop lying.  We're the jerks for calling her on it though.  She lied about her role in Ireland and took credit that she didn't deserve for opening borders in Kosovo.  Aside from a few around here and at hilary44 nobody bought it.  Oh, poor her.  She's not wrong for lying constantly.  We're misogynists for not being suckers.

Let's see if anyone buys the idea that she's been anywhere near a duck hunt that didn't involve a Nintendo console.  I guess she'll be a victim in that one too.  

She's the one with all of the "experience" even though it hasn't translated into any campaign success in the nomination race.  She's the one that's vetted even though she's had a gaffe a minute for about a month now.  Obama supposedly can't win in November so we should go with her even though she is steadily losing to what people around here seem to think is such an inept candidate.  

Take a look at the electoral vote maps on the front page.  Once Hilary drops out and Obama convinces New York to do what it always does and vote democratic, he will be elected president partially because Michigan will vote for him.  That's another molehill that you folks have desperately tried to fashion into a mountain.  Take a look.  Obama expands the map.  Hilary loses.

Obama also grows the party and he does so in a demographic that gives our party (the one Hilary used to be loyal to) an advantage for another 60 years or so.

by lockewasright 2008-04-15 08:11AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Yeah, the person who is losing by every measure, and has been for months, is the "likely nominee"

Keep telling yourself that . . .

by DrPolitics 2008-04-14 08:16PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

On what do you base a belief that Hillary is the likely nominee?  Her campaign itself has admitted that she has no more than a 10% chance of getting the nod.

by DreamsOfABlueNation 2008-04-14 08:48PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

You can quit clicking your heels together, Dorothy. You're already in Kansas.

by bookish 2008-04-15 03:33AM | 0 recs
ROFL!!!

"I think Hillary's the likely nominee."

Which begs the question:

What the fuck are you smoking?

by jwolf 2008-04-15 04:11AM | 0 recs
Re: mefck

Riiiight... which is why you're recommending filth like this:

http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/4/14/1 62544/271/13?mode=alone;showrate=1#13

Your user name is missing a "U."

This isn't a game, but people's lives are at stake.  We should start acting like it.

by KnowVox 2008-04-14 07:23PM | 0 recs
Re: mefck

I never see you anywhere except commenting in alegre's diaries.

Anyway, I uprated it, not because I agreed with it but because I thought it was deserving of a "1" instead of the "0's" a lot of people gave.

by mefck 2008-04-14 07:31PM | 0 recs
Re: mefck

Both statements are total B.S., and you know it.

by KnowVox 2008-04-14 07:51PM | 0 recs
Re: mefck

The empirical evidence says otherwise:

1) Re: mefck [none / 0] Replies: 0
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 11:51:52 PM EST
attached to The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Velcro Off?

2) Re: Perfectly normal Q's [none / 0] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 11:42:49 PM EST
attached to The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Velcro Off?

3) Re: The Cling Thing... [2.00 / 1] Replies: 0
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 11:36:56 PM EST
attached to The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Velcro Off?

4) Re: Obama's Policies [none / 0] Replies: 0
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 11:26:48 PM EST
attached to The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Velcro Off?

5) Re: mefck [none / 0] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 11:23:17 PM EST
attached to The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Velcro Off?

6) Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel [2.00 / 3] Replies: 0
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 11:17:13 PM EST
attached to The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Velcro Off?

7) Re: Obama's Policies [2.00 / 4] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 11:07:11 PM EST
attached to The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Velcro Off?

8) Re: Your ridiculous sources [none / 0] Replies: 0
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 10:58:39 PM EST
attached to (some) Clinton supporters stepping away from the brink? (!)

9) Re: Mods and posters - take MyDD back [2.00 / 2] Replies: 2
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 10:51:05 PM EST
attached to Mods and posters - take MyDD back

10) Re: Definitions [none / 0] Replies: 0
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 03:31:18 PM EST
attached to (some) Clinton supporters stepping away from the brink? (!)

11) Re: Interpreting Candidates [2.00 / 2] Replies: 0
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 03:23:01 PM EST
attached to Wine - blind tasting wine and blind hearing candidates

12) Re: No substance? [none / 0] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 02:50:26 PM EST
attached to (some) Clinton supporters stepping away from the brink? (!)

13) Re: Your hit piece diary [none / 0] Replies: 2
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 02:28:48 PM EST
attached to (some) Clinton supporters stepping away from the brink? (!)

14) Re: SUNDAY MORNING [none / 0] Replies: 0
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 01:12:55 PM EST
attached to SUNDAY MORNING

15) Re: Ragekage,fogive [1.66 / 3] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 01:10:55 PM EST
attached to SUNDAY MORNING

16) Re: Forget Kansas. What's the Matter With Obama? [2.00 / 1] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 12:34:00 PM EST
attached to Forget Kansas. What's the Matter With Obama?

17) Matter of prespective [none / 0] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 02:05:53 AM EST
attached to Updated: Looks like this story's got legs...

18) Re: Agreed: that was funny [2.00 / 3] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 12:59:11 AM EST
attached to Updated: Looks like this story's got legs...

19) Re: Looks like this story's got legs... [2.00 / 2] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 12:55:24 AM EST
attached to Updated: Looks like this story's got legs...

20) Re: Obama was still right by [2.00 / 1] Replies: 0
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 12:47:27 AM EST
attached to Updated: Looks like this story's got legs...

21) Re: Looks like this story's got legs... [2.00 / 5] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 12:40:07 AM EST
attached to Updated: Looks like this story's got legs...

22) Re: I like the one source which is [2.00 / 1] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 12:27:06 AM EST
attached to Updated: Looks like this story's got legs...

23) Re: Looks like this story's got legs... [2.00 / 2] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 12:20:33 AM EST
attached to Updated: Looks like this story's got legs...

24) Re: Looks like this story's got legs... [2.00 / 6] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 12:17:44 AM EST
attached to Updated: Looks like this story's got legs...

25) Re: Looks like this story's got legs... [2.00 / 9] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 12:12:06 AM EST
attached to Updated: Looks like this story's got legs...

26) Re: Looks like this story's got legs... [2.00 / 5] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 12:09:23 AM EST
attached to Updated: Looks like this story's got legs...

27) Re: Looks like this story's got legs... [2.00 / 8] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 12:07:06 AM EST
attached to Updated: Looks like this story's got legs...

28) Re: Looks like this story's got legs... [2.00 / 8] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 12:03:07 AM EST
attached to Updated: Looks like this story's got legs...

29) Re: Looks like this story's got legs... [2.00 / 6] Replies: 1
posted by KnowVox on 04/14/2008 12:00:50 AM EST
attached to Updated: Looks like this story's got legs...

30) Re: Do People Even Care? [2.00 / 1] Replies: 0
posted by KnowVox on 04/13/2008 01:58:10 AM EST
attached to Do People Even Care?  

by mefck 2008-04-14 07:54PM | 0 recs
Re: mefck

Thanks for proving my point. BOTH statements are total B.S.

You should be ashamed of yourself recommending comments like this:

http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/4/14/1 62544/271/13?mode=alone;showrate=1#13

by KnowVox 2008-04-14 08:00PM | 0 recs
Re: mefck

Is that the best you can do?  Finding one uprated comment?  Good grief.  Go back to the hole you came from or stop being such a troll.....or Alegre's lapdog-whichever....

by mefck 2008-04-15 04:24AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Oh the sanctimony...the rank hypocrisy...

As an Obama supporter, I was never happy when Hillary flibbed in the event she was the nominee.  Yet, when Obama, who is the probable nominee messes-up, you seem to take great joy in it.

This isn't a game, but people's lives are at stake.  We should start acting like it.

Pardon me, while I blow milk out my nose after reading your post, and bursting into incredulous laughter...

As Elizabeth Edwards said recently, Hillary's health care plan is the best because it encompasses everyone. Why didn't Edwards endorse Obama? Because Obama was condescending and patronizing to John and Elizabeth Edwards on issues of poverty and actually was so incredibly arrogant that he argued with Elizabeth Edwards.

Yes, "people's lives are at stake." And, "It's not a game."

When Obama said in the Dartmouth Debate to Tim Russert that he could not promise that the troops would be out by 2013; when he then began saying he would have the troops out by March, 2008; when he then changed his tune and started saying he'd have the troops out by 2009; when his foreign policy advisor, Samantha Power then let slip during a BBC interview that he wouldn't base his Iraq policy on what he's saying in his campaign speeches, but would forge a new plan once he was president.....

When he lied about all of those dates, and all of those strategies, and all of those differing Iraq Policies.....

I thought about all the lives at stake.

The only candidate who seems to realize that is Hillary Clinton. Your candidate clearly believes this is all a game--a shell game--where he can hide who he really is--a malignant narcissist--until he fools enough of the people to get him the nomination, based on his charm, and his belief that he's "the one!"

It's all about him. He's a narcissist. It is a game to Obama. A game for his own self-aggrandizement. But, as you say, "lives are at stake."

That's why I won't vote for Barack Obama.

by Tennessean 2008-04-15 03:42AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

I wonder his Gallup poll numbers went up and Clinton's went down since this broke.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama Tanking in PA

The first fresh poll results from Pennsylvania are in since Barack Obama's "bitter" comments about people in small towns exploded as a news story, and the findings could hardly be worse for the Democratic presidential contender.

The new poll by American Research Group -- conducted Friday, Saturday and Sunday -- gave Clinton 57% and Obama 37% (based on interviews with 600 Democrats, the survey has an error margin of plus-or-minus 4 percentage points).

Intriguingly...interviews with voters indicate Obama's tumble in the state has more to do with what the candidate himself has said were ill-chosen words than anything else.

New poll shows Barack Obama tanking in Pennsylvania
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washingt on/2008/04/new-poll-shows.html

by KnowVox 2008-04-15 07:04AM | 0 recs
"his rich supporters in San Francisco"

It's important to remember that they're from San Francisco, right, alegre?

For someone who complained about "periodically feeling down," you have no problem with the homophobic dog whistles, do you?

by Drew 2008-04-14 07:18PM | 0 recs
Nice bit of cowardice

Campskunk.  Guess it's okay to blow the whistle, huh?

by Drew 2008-04-14 07:35PM | 0 recs
And now from

KnowVox, too.  Is it harder to blow the whistle when others have noticed you doing it?

by Drew 2008-04-14 07:54PM | 0 recs
Look who's joined the party:

Caldonia     
campskunk    
KnowVox      
Rumarhazzit    
Scotch            

How many more will step up and defend the whistle!

by Drew 2008-04-14 08:03PM | 0 recs
And now it's a zero.

Interesting.

by Drew 2008-04-14 08:28PM | 0 recs
Re: HR'd For Personal Attacks

I would've let the first one go.  But you're getting tiresome.

by creeper1014 2008-04-15 09:13AM | 0 recs
Just because someone mentions the city of

San Francisco doesn't mean there is an automatic gay connotation - unless of course you are a Republican trying to smear Nancy Pelosi, or alegre. If you read the diary again you will see alegre is talking about "class," not sexual orientation - but then, you knew that:

So this all started at a $1,000 per ticket fundraiser at some guy's home?  No press - private home - 300 to 400 of his rich supporters in San Francisco.

Talk about two different Americas guys.

And there are other examples as well.

by Rumarhazzit 2008-04-14 07:49PM | 0 recs
Oh, look.

Here come the excuses.  And I'm sure that you found them equally as compelling when deployed in Barack Obama's defense, didn't you?

by Drew 2008-04-14 07:52PM | 0 recs
Oh good lord. He was in SanFrancisco when

he made those comments. So if alegre says he was in SanFrancisco when he made those comments she is "blowing the homophobic dog whistle?" Wow! You have some serious issues...

by Rumarhazzit 2008-04-14 08:00PM | 0 recs
Next you'll tell me

That I'm too sensitive.

by Drew 2008-04-14 08:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Next you'll tell me

I'd say dense. Commonly happens in instances of isolation.

SF is code from way back for liberals, not gays. That's a connotation that came later. When people snidely refer to Nancy Pelosi as that SF liberal, they are hearkening to images of dirty fucking hippies, not gay people. That's part of what makes this whole thing such a huge deal, as was clearly said in the diary. If he'd said it to Pennsylvanians' faces, it would have been different.  Still bad, but not as bad.

by anna belle 2008-04-15 09:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Next you'll tell me

Sensitive is the last thing you are.  Boring, repetitive, tiresome, dog-in-the-mangerish, yes.

Sensitive, no.

I don't normally characterize posters here, since personal insults are cause for TRs.  I'll make an exception in your case, since you asked for it.

by creeper1014 2008-04-15 09:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Just because someone mentions the city of

I see.  When someone mentions S.F. it isn't necessarily a crack at gays, but if someone says "periodically" in a sentence where it clearly means what the dictionary says it means... well then it just has to be twisted to be a comment about menses?!  

Either the comment was homophobic in accordance with the standards set by the constant whining coming out of the Hilary supporters who want to call any and all resistance to Hilary flagrant misogyny or it's not and Hilary supporters need to get on with rescinding and apologizing for the about 758 charges of sexism per millisecond that they have been leveling since Hilary started her embarrassing campaign.

by lockewasright 2008-04-15 08:23AM | 0 recs
san fran libs

"""For someone who complained about "periodically feeling down," you have no problem with the homophobic dog whistles, do you?"""

More identity politics.

YOU are the problem, and are dividing this party.

by switching sides 2008-04-14 11:56PM | 0 recs
The person dividing this party

Is the one following Hillary's lead in using that homophobic dog whistle.

I find her attack on Obama to be disingenuous, but there's no reason she has to compound that ridiculous criticism with a slap at gay people.

Unless she thinks it works for her.

by Drew 2008-04-15 12:33AM | 0 recs
alegre, are you playing the system?

Just a question, hoping to get an honest answer. It doesn't take many recommendations to get on the rec list. Have to organized a group of people to go to MyDD for the sole purpose of rec'ing your diaries to get them on the list? Just curious.

by ImpeachBushCheney 2008-04-14 11:58PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...
As long as the Democrats are fighting each other and the MSM is benefiting financially, this kind of thing will go on.
When will we start taking it to McCain, dammit?
by barnowl 2008-04-15 04:17AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

You had just about zero impact with your "strike" and now you are making a mountain out of a molehill even though anyone who wants to can take a look at all of the polling from all of the different organizations and see that this is good for a temporary 4 or 5 point swing which won't be enough to save your inept liar of a candidate from the ass whipping she's been taking practically every day since February.  (1 out lier does not make a huge bump.)

You have almost no credibility to anyone who's eyes are open alegre.  I hope that you have a chance to destroy what little bit of credibility  you have left before your bumbling candidate drops out so that people who are trying to get informed and involved for the sake of our country don't have to suffer your falsehoods anymore.  You are wrong every time you say anything.  You misinterpret at every opportunity and then blindly parrot talking points long after they have proven to be false.  You are either not very intelligent or are just a dishonest person.  Possibly both.

by lockewasright 2008-04-15 07:40AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Geez, you're a nasty piece of work. This is the second comment of yours in this diary where I've had to watch you stamp your feet and blubber about how she's losing, LOSING GODDAMN IT! I can practically see the spittle as it gathers at the corners of your mouth.

In case you haven't noticed, this boxing match is going down as a TKO. There will be no knockout for this match. It's round 11 and the score is a dead heat. I'm sorry you wish this wasn't the case, but it is, and despite the fact that you've been taught your whole life that reality is what you make it, that is not the case.

I suggest a walk outside as you are obviously in need of some sunlight. It'll make you feel better, and we'll get a (much needed) break from all your growling and barking.

by anna belle 2008-04-15 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

watch

by lockewasright 2008-04-15 09:55AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Have you seen the delegate count?

Have you seen Obama's sustained 10 point lead in national polling?

When was the last time your candidate had the delegate lead in this "close" contest?  (hint: It was before Iowa voted)

Since super tuesday, how many SDs have committed to Hilary and how many to BO?

How many states has he won versus her?

Where does the popular vote currently stand?

Who can't pay their bills and ran out of elitist muckety mucks from which to raise additional funds $4,600 at a time?

Who has a veritable internet ATM funded by a base of 1.3 million small donors?

How big does she need to win the remaining states after NC negates PA and Oregon and Montana go to Barack?

If this WERE a boxing match the ref would have stopped it by now.  A good trainer looks out for the athlete's future and throws in the towel when there could be career long damage.  Sadly Hilary's staff cares only about this fight.  They care none for the league or her career after this.

by lockewasright 2008-04-15 10:07AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

How many different posts can you actually make on this one subject? You do seem to be enjoying it, all too much as a matter of fact. Is this 4 posts or 5 now? you do realize that there are other things going on in the world?

by AHunch 2008-04-15 08:43AM | 0 recs
"Will He Ever Shake This Off?"

See today's polls.  Sorry, alegre, but you need some new material. Hasn't hillaryclinton.com given you any new talking points yet?

by mikeinsf 2008-04-15 09:34AM | 0 recs
Alege,

Given the number of outrageous TRs and HRs you're getting you must be striking a very sensitive nerve.

Keep up the good work.

by creeper1014 2008-04-15 10:14AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

I am disappointed by this continued character assassination, you're almost joyful to see something relatively inane be pronounced "it's got legs!" "will he ever shake this off?" With your hands wringing fearfully!  

This marks my last trip to one of your diaries. I didn't believe it at first when I read how you have been on a one-blogger-take-down mission of Barack.

Here's why: I would say cherry picking quotes from the Politico article took on a too-narrow view and expanded it in to some huge controversy, which it in fact is missing the whole point of what any poll has suggested is at issue- Obama is right, there is bitterness and if you read multiple news sources as veraciously as I do then, you would see the biggest issue at hand is the gaff in his wording and has literally nothing to do with being out of touch or an elitist- those truly are words chosen by his opponents- The Hillary camp may not have called up Rove on this but they are using the same-style play book and thankfully that seems to be obvious to the PA voters he was calling bitter. They seemed non-plussed- at least for now.

But could you stand up to months and months of ginned-up character assassination? I think not!

My question is, why is this what matters?

What about war? Health care? My mortgage? Gas and food prices?   Can we please move beyond this petty rhetoric, for surely it is both petty and rhetoric.
 

by califdem 2008-04-15 12:14PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

he can't stop talking about it. i haven't heard anything about policy out of his mouth since friday.

by campskunk 2008-04-14 07:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's Policies

Can't blame him. His policies don't hold a candle to Hillary's thoughtful, well researched ones.

by KnowVox 2008-04-14 07:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's Policies

Dude, you're SO right. Oh, yeah. His were totally pulled together at the last minute. During Homeroom I think. Hillary had footnotes, and Obama just had some napkins from the cafeteria.

Also, Trisha totally saw him smoking behind the dumpsters -- and he promised Michelle he'd totally quit!

So, let's recap the various slights pushed by you folks over the last few months. If all were true:

Obama, an elitist, black radical Christian/Muslim and closet Republican, who is hopelessly corrupt, truly unpatriotic and has no original ideas of his own (being both a liar and a plagiarist), will be crushed in the General Election by Mr. Magoo because he hasn't enough experience and everyone who supports him are either a'swoon cultists who've never heard a good speech before, or Judases. He's also sexist Michiganer/Floridianphobe.

What a complex figure! Faulkner would be stymied.

by Lettuce 2008-04-14 07:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's Policies

Now that you mention it: If the shoe fits.....

by KnowVox 2008-04-14 07:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's Policies

self-parody much?

by brimur 2008-04-14 08:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's Policies

If the foo' shits...

by fogiv 2008-04-14 08:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's Policies

Oh my god.  Best rant ever.

by fogiv 2008-04-14 08:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's Policies

Thanks! Vocabulary and rage are my two favorite things.

by Lettuce 2008-04-14 09:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's Policies

Then may you remain forever angry, for the benefit of all mankind.  :)

by fogiv 2008-04-14 09:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's Policies

Oh right, all Hillary's policies, like how she shot guns as a kid, or how suddenly important faith is to her, etc, etc.

by TheSilverMonkey 2008-04-14 08:25PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

When you find yourself in a hole - stop digging!

Wiser words were never spoken where BO's concerned in this case.

by alegre 2008-04-14 07:13PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

He'd be seen as weak if he didn't go after this as he has.  And I think it would hurt him the polls because people would believe that he could be swiftboated.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:27PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

He WILL be swiftboated.

Rev Wright
Bombing Pakistan
Talking with Iran
Negotiating with terrorists
No Nukes under any circumstances
Rural voters are bitter
Rezko
Friend of a terrorist
etc
etc
and so on...

Before the rethugs are done with him, he will have been painted as the biggest clown of the 21st century, and it will stick.

Switch to Hillary now, before it's too late.

Please.

by switching sides 2008-04-14 11:59PM | 0 recs
Only if supposed Democrats like you

keep making stuff up.

by barnowl 2008-04-15 04:20AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

lol wow...  some list you have there...

Sounds like you've been watching and listening to Sean Hannity a little.

First off, he doesn't want to bomb Pakistan, he wants to kill Osama Bin Laden and go after terrorists.  I fail to see how the GOP can possible swiftboat him on that.  Sounds like he's to the right on John McCain when it comes to the War on Terror.

Oh no, he wants to talk with Iran?!  Didn't we talk with the USSR during the Cold War?!  Since when are talks a bad thing.  Only after 7 years of the Bush Administration could talking with your enemies be considered a stupid and naive thing to do.  Let us not forget the old adage "keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

"Friend with a terrorist" - I think you use the word "friend" a little too loosely here with William Ayers.  Supposed "friendly relations" and "friends" are not equals no matter how much you wish they were.

Rezko - all of the major newspapers in Chicago have been satisfied with Obama's answers to them.  Even the most conservative of them.  And the Chicago news outlets were the only ones actually trying to do any reporting on the subject.  If they're satisfied, then I am too.  Besides... Rezko is a small fish compared to some of Clinton's dealings... and Let's be honest, we all know John McCain has skeletons just no one wants to report anything bad on the former POW.  They'll come out sooner or later.  You don't worry.

All I see there is a list of things you hoped would bring Obama down in the primary, and they didn't.  I think we are underestimating the American public.  They're tired of listening to all the attacks because they've heard them all before, and I don't think they are going to fall for such stupid and slanderous attacks this election.

by jturn17 2008-04-15 10:54AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Really? Reactions to his comments have improved the more he's explained his position, and politicsmatters just posted some interesting data showing that a significant percentage of Clinton supporters and undecideds agree with his statements after hearing his explanation.

Meanwhile, Hillary and Bill found themselves in a hole over her Bosnia trip, and the more they keep digging, the less people believe them. It got to the point where Hillary told Bill to stop talking about it because neither of them remember what happened.

by jdusek 2008-04-14 08:32PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Nobody gets a chance to "explain" their comments in a general election.  Kerry tried to explain his "I voted for it before I voted against it" over and over, to no avail.  

Trouble with Obama is, he keeps needing to explain what he said.  I really don't get why people think he's a silver-tongued orator.  When he's reading words off a sheet of paper, maybe.  when speaking off the cuff or answering questions on the fly, he's got a bad case of foot-in-mouth disease.

by Montague 2008-04-15 04:07AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Nobody gets a chance to "explain" their comments in a general election? What, is there a moratorium on debates, rallies and interviews this year?

Kerry failed to explain his flip-flopping because he was really, really bad at explaining himself, not because he wasn't given the chance.

Obama, on the other hand, has done quite well explaining his "bitter" comments, his relationship with his church, his position on why he doesn't wear a flag pin, and a host of other issues that the media predicted would be his undoing.

In each case, the pattern has been the same. The media or his opponents take an excerpted comment, run the comment out of context, people get worked up about it, Obama then clarifies what he meant, provides the context that the media ignores, and afterwards polls show that people agree with his explanation and will continue to vote for him in large numbers.

I'd say he's doing just fine in this department.

by jdusek 2008-04-15 09:22AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

You don't get it, do you?  It isn't the damage from one individual gaffe that will sink him.  It's the cumulative effect.  John Q. is beginning to wonder why every time Barack Obama appears on his TV screen he's trying to "clarify" something he's said or done that offends people.

The pattern is recognizable.  If it's this bad in the primaries, against an opponent of his own party, just think what it's going to be like in the GE when McRove gets rolling.

Uuuuugh-ly.

by creeper1014 2008-04-15 10:25AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

I'm not worried about it.

by jdusek 2008-04-15 10:36AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Actually I disagree that Kerry did a bad job at explaining himself.  He did okay, but he just didn't have a chance against the mighty wurlitzer. He did about as well as Obama does.  

No, there's no moratorium on debates.  You know very well what I meant.  Once it's out there and the Rethugs run with it, you are branded with it forever.  No amount of explaining will change the minds of most Rethugs.  Democrats will give Obama a chance to explain, but Democrats aren't in the majority.

I'm just so tired of having "clarification" from Obama.  Enough already.  Kerry redux.

by Montague 2008-04-17 04:01AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Just remind me who got booed today bringing this up again?  

by interestedbystander 2008-04-14 09:15PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

And can he not stop talking about it, or is it the 30 second news clips that you watch can't stop talking about it? If you all you ever do is rewad alegre's posts you would think that this non-issue has totally consumed the universe.

by AHunch 2008-04-15 08:45AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Wait?  A story's been in the news for 3 whole days due in large part to two of the three remaining candidates promoting it to attack the third?  Wow, it must never go away if it hasn't gone away immediately!

The problem with the argument I've been seeing here is that there's no acceptance of the concept that a statement or event could be damaging in the short term but still fall short of crippling.  Everyone remembers Macaca but forgets that 99% of all media flareups are forgotten a week later.

Plagiarism was supposed to be the killer, remember?

by thezzyzx 2008-04-14 07:01PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

No, Rezko. Or Wright. Those were the killers. Or.. Ayers? Norman Hsu, certainly. And once people start looking at who hired Bill to speak and what issues they have before Congress, and tie that to how Hillary, I mean, Obama voted.

Maybe I've gotten some things confused. You'd think maybe these so-called scandals are only so much noise in a process that's all but played out.

But no more or less confused as the Clinton supporters who just get all giddy at the idea of Obama ruining his Presidency by feigning outrage when he speaks to the country as if they are adults.

I mean, the diarist certainly has read how Bill Clinton gave pretty much the same point in a speech years ago -- as have several articles and books. It's a real issue that Democrats need to address -- and Democrats are doing it.

But it's not done by trying to out-pander each other, who's more 'down-to-earth' as if whether Clinton hunted as a kid matters in undoing the Bush disaster.

But again, the Diarist -- and Clinton herself -- knows this. It's political opportunism. Crass and unhelpful to the people everyone's supposedly concerned about.

Never thought Democrats would be the type to make education and adult discourse a liability.

by Lettuce 2008-04-14 07:09PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

If this scandal were really so big, you'd think that Clinton wouldn't have to push it so hard.

The reason why this is going to die out soon (barring something bizarre) is that there's no act 2.  It's the same reason Wright died out.  At least with Wright, they could show the clips over and over again; the lack of video and weak audio means that they'd have to read it over and over again.

Pundits get bored.  If the story doesn't have a new twist, they go on to the next trivial scandal.  The problem is that the most likely twist they can bring to this is, "Clinton pushed it too hard."  

That's the one thing that Obama understands - don't cover things up.  Address what you did wrong, focus on the parts that you stand behind, and there's nothing for the press to focus on.

by thezzyzx 2008-04-14 07:19PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Really.

He's
said he didn't say it well
explained what he said
and
made it clear that he thinks that people ARE angry bitter and frustrated for very good reasons

He's not getting defined or pushed around.  And he's not a jerk who goes around saying that Al Gore lost in 2000.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:23PM | 0 recs
Excuse Me, But Gore Did Lose

at the hands of his home state and the Supreme Court. I hate the fact, but he did lose.

by Soitgoes 2008-04-14 09:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Excuse Me, But Gore Did Lose

True.  But isn't the point here that it is very unproductive on her part to push the "out of touch with voters" narrative that will be applied to every Democratic candidate?

To channel Bob Somerby, only in our broken discourse can the popular vote winner be described as "out of touch with voters."

by Wes 2008-04-14 10:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Excuse Me, But Gore Did Lose

I would venture to say that Hillary's comments undercutting the Gore and Kerry campaigns will be of much more interest to the remaining superdelegates than Obama's SF speech.

by haystax calhoun 2008-04-15 11:31AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Josh Marshall pointed out that you know a Scandal's done when the opponants trot it out. (a'la Monica). This one was entirely opponant-based, and as such, remains an electoral loser.

But I love the "elitist" from "South Chicago" narrative. I thought it was anti-White racism by Obama that drove him. Turns out, he doesn't hate white people, he hates rural voters who happen to be White! Maybe next he'll hate those Sinister left-handed rural voters who like Hummel figurines.

What a silly man. Obviously doomed in the General.

by Lettuce 2008-04-14 07:31PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

You know, if Obama ever showed a little humility himself, I wouldn't find his words so offensive.  But he doesn't have humility.  He pretends to have it by saying that he's imperfect, but he never gives real examples.  Instead, he puts down others - his grandmother, his pastor, etc.

by Montague 2008-04-15 04:10AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake

Oh Alegre, you are merciless!  Great title.  But for some reason, I can't get that annoying KC and the Sunshine Band song outta my head now. ;)

by Caldonia 2008-04-14 07:04PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake

KC and the Sunshine Band song...

Ahh crap now I've got it in my head.  Thanks Cal! ;o)

by alegre 2008-04-14 07:19PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake

It'll be lonely in there.

by interestedbystander 2008-04-14 09:18PM | 0 recs
audience dial data

Check out the responses to Obama on bitter. There's audience dial data and a pdf that summarizes and breaks down the before and after audience responses.

http://www.mediacurves.com/Politics/J679 7/
http://www.mediacurves.com/Politics/J679 7/ReportJ6797.pdf

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: audience dial data

These are fascinating reports. I hope people see them (although the links need to be copied/pasted in.)

It's heartening how many Clinton supporters were swayed by his explainations, and ended up agreeing with him. I think in a non-primary year, Hillary herself would too.

(And lots of McCain supporters changed their mind on it as well. Very heartening.)

by Lettuce 2008-04-14 07:23PM | 0 recs
Re: audience dial data

oops - I tried to do it right.  If anyone can help on this, I'd very much appreciate it.  Thanks.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:24PM | 0 recs
by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:28PM | 0 recs
Re: audience dial data

That's cool.  Gracias!

by fogiv 2008-04-14 09:10PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Alegre, good diary, as always. Your videos aren't working.

by Enviro 2008-04-14 07:09PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

So take a look at the one I have just above.  It's from a media research company, not a group that's affiliated with any campaign.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:11PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

CAMPSKUNK!!!!!!!

Why the TR on this comment?  What's wrong with you?

by fogiv 2008-04-14 09:11PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Wait. They are now! strange. Anyway, excellent diary. Keep up the good work!

by Enviro 2008-04-14 07:11PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

MyDD requires link modifications AFTER A DIARY IS POSTED before YouTube links can be properly embedded.

by KnowVox 2008-04-14 07:17PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Thanks Enviro.  The videos are working now - you have to go back in and edit to get them up and running once you publish here.

by alegre 2008-04-14 07:20PM | 0 recs
No, not really.

And as was pointed out in a front-page post, the fact that he's steady in the daily tracking polls, while she's down, kinda argues against your thesis.

Clinton's trying to keep this alive. Good, I say, because there's some (inconclusive) evidence that it's hurting her, not him.

Sorry. This silver bullet isn't going to do the trick, either, no matter how many diaries you pump out about it :-)

by MBNYC 2008-04-14 07:11PM | 0 recs
Yeah - Really

One post by Johnathan Singer (no offense Johnathan!) does not put this to rest.  Give it a few days.

by alegre 2008-04-14 07:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah - Really

If wishes were horses, and those horses were superdelegates, Hillary would be the nominee already and you'd not have to resort to propping up a non-scandal.

Just sayin'.

by Lettuce 2008-04-14 07:24PM | 0 recs
Heh.

You know, no offense intended, but I've seen so many predictions that yes, this is finally the campaign-ender, that I'm less than impressed with the forecasting abilities you and some others bring to the table.

I mean, when Ed Rendell says this is no big deal, I'll go with that, too.

But hey, meanwhile, Hillary is amusing the entire political world by running ads that paint her as the Church Lady. Fine by me, in a Democratic primary. That'll work, I'm sure.

by MBNYC 2008-04-14 07:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Heh.

These clowns shout "Toast" everytime some minor Obama issue pops up. What ticks me off is Hillary's fumbled much worse several times and they all act like the whole world's an unfair disaster when anyone reports on it. I thought the tone was finally changing around here but it turns out this crap just won't die. I've gone from sympathetic to Hillary to waiting for her to go down in screeching flames because of these screaming monkeys flinging shit constantly. Personally, for me, the lowest point was when Alegre tried using 9/11 to score political points off some comments Obama made.

by TheSilverMonkey 2008-04-14 08:31PM | 0 recs
Points well taken

but the diary you're talking about wasn't by alegre, it came from the banned freeper troll Universal. Or, as some have taken to calling him, Freeperversal.

And yes, it was horrendous, which is why it was deleted and he was banned.

by MBNYC 2008-04-14 09:16PM | 0 recs
Oh no

It was by alegre all right. I believe Universal had an equally disgusting one, but his diaries were always pretty low-brow. What struck me about the alegre one was the high-ground the diarist claimed to have taken in the past.

by TheSilverMonkey 2008-04-14 11:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Points well taken

Why the 1 rating here?  Universal is no longer a member of mydd, so this comment cannot be called an attack on another user. ;)

by Skaje 2008-04-15 12:52AM | 0 recs
The trollrater

and Freeperversal both post on Hillaryis44.org, if I'm not mistaken; must be a solidarity thing.

by MBNYC 2008-04-15 04:12AM | 0 recs
I don't know how it happened, but you missed this

... one from John Baer from the Philadelphi Daily News:

Decades of working-class neglect - now that's insulting

SOME THOUGHTS on the latest diversion of Campaign '08, a campaign apparently hell-bent on keeping the nation mired in its own stupidity.

As a native-born, small-town Pennsylvanian, a son of native-born, small-town Pennsylvania parents - one from the coal region, one from Lancaster County - let me assure you that the so-called offensive, condescending things Barack Obama said about the people I come from are basically right on target.

"Bitter" perhaps best describes my late mother, an angry Irish Catholic who absolutely clung to her religion.

Dad, also a journalist, wasn't really bitter as far as I know, but he sure liked to hunt.

So, despite carping from Hillary Clinton and annoying yapping from her surrogates (really, it's like turning on the lights at night in a puppy farm), I take no offense.

And it goes on from there. And Baer wasn't even among the folks giving Clinton the silent treatment as she repeated her desperate, feeble attacks today in front of the steelworkers.

As Baer concludes his piece:

Just don't tell me that he insulted a state or, given his background, that he's an out-of-touch elitist.

And I especially don't want to hear such arguments from a candidate who spent decades in the bubble of a governor's mansion, the White House and the U.S. Senate, and under the blanket of $109 million income during the last eight years.

Pennsylvanians might cling to religion and guns. I hope they don't cling to stupidity.

Seems like a lot of PA residents recognize Hillary's inane attacks for what they are: stupid.

by Bob Johnson 2008-04-14 07:11PM | 0 recs
Ha!

"turning on the lights at a puppy farm".  God, that's perfect.

by fogiv 2008-04-14 09:17PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Are these actors? A lot of the lines don't sound like anyone I know and they just don't sound upset at all.  Alegre, maybe you can use your contacts with the Clinton campaign to ask them where in PA these folks live.  Thank you in advance.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:12PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

I think this is the first 0 I've handed out here.  FOR THE RECORD...

I don't have contacts with the campaign and to claim I do is complete and utter bullshit.  Knock it the hell off.

Thank you in advance.

by alegre 2008-04-14 07:24PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Well, several times you've mentioned that you've sat in on conference calls the campaign had.  I would think you'd only get that access if you were affiliated.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:29PM | 0 recs
If I can jump in here

it's perfectly normal for campaigns, including both Presidential campaigns, to have conference calls for press and bloggers. I do them regularly, as does alegre, it seems.

Nothing nefarious about it.

by MBNYC 2008-04-14 07:35PM | 0 recs
Re: If I can jump in here

That certainly can't be set up without contact with the campaign, no?

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:41PM | 0 recs
It's usually done via email.

I'm on both of their press lists, so I get the invites too. It's not a very involved process. I know several people on Hillary's campaign staff, and I didn't need to get in touch with them to set it up.

by MBNYC 2008-04-14 07:54PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

The press calls are for people UNAFFILIATED with the campaign.

by KnowVox 2008-04-14 07:36PM | 0 recs
That's not good enough Alegre

For some time now a number of people have asked question in regards to your relationship to the Clinton campaign and you have never answered the question suffuciently.

Bottom line - are you or have you ever receieved compensation or items of value from the Clinton camapaign or her surrogates for your work in the blogosphere on her behalf?

A simple way to get a truthful answer on this is for us to come up with a trusted 3rd party that you give your name to and your name is run against the Clinton filings.

If I am wrong and you are not a paid operative I'll be happy to admit my mistake - but my gut tells me there is alot more to you then this silly "i'm just a working mother" schtic that you play.

by FinneganOregon 2008-04-14 11:08PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Why was I downrated for this? It's a perfectly normal question to ask.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Perfectly normal Q's

Since you blog for Obama 24/7, perhaps you should ask your own campaign.

by KnowVox 2008-04-14 07:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Perfectly normal Q's

Hey, I'm an academic who does this for fun.  It's my hobby.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Perfectly normal Q's

Academic?

ELITIST! ELITIST! THROW HER (or him) INTO THE POND!!!

by Lettuce 2008-04-14 09:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Perfectly normal Q's

To the lake of fire with her!

by fogiv 2008-04-14 09:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Perfectly normal Q's

You were downrated because you're an incessant troll who makes these kinds of nefarious claims 24/7, and I guess people got tired of it.

It wasn't an 'honest question', it was a smear, a typical Obamaton trick.

by switching sides 2008-04-15 12:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Perfectly normal Q's

In the future of a couple months from now, you will be visited by three (3) ghosts.

The first one will be the Ghost of Blog Comments past, in which you will reread this message and thing: "Really? I was like that? Scolding and downrating like Nellie Olson on a Tattle-binge?" And then the Ghost of Blog Comments present and future will arrive, but they'll get stuck at this most recent post. "Really?" They'll say. "You devoted words and precious Internet space to be like that?"

You'll ask, "what do you mean, precious Internet space," and the ghost of Blog Comments future will begin to explain about how bandwith became a $112/a/barrel commodity in the future under President McCain, because somehow Halliburton figured out a way, but the Ghost of Blog Comments Present will interrupt, saying, "let them be surprised. It is Christmas."

Seriously though, this site and it's rather frequent pronouncements of "I'm troll rating you" and "NO, I'm troll rating YOU" and then "well, if you think I'm a big Billy Goat Gruff, wait till you see my brother! He's really big!" well, it's just not the best foot forward I think any of us would like to be putting forth.

by Lettuce 2008-04-15 04:37AM | 0 recs
Bill Clinton What a Hypocrite

Bill Clinton lied when he told us during the 92 Democratic convention:

I was raised to believe that the American Dream was built on rewarding hard work. But we have seen the folks in Washington turn the American ethic on its head. For too long, those who play by the rules and keep the faith have gotten the shaft, and those who cut corners and cut deals have been rewarded.

When he became President Clinton stabbed us all in the back by joining with the Republicans to slash taxes on the Wealthiest Americans by cutting Dividends and Capital Gains Taxes. Many liberals like to blame Bush, who was only following Clinton's lead, with more modest cut in Dividends and Capital Gains Taxes of his own. Clinton says he believes in hard work, but he rewards the wealthy by shifting taxes from the wealthy to working people.

Bill Clinton is still lying to us now when he says:

"I think it's very critical that the Democrats really focus in on this and make it clear that we are not (elitist). We are going to stand up and fight for all Americans," Clinton said.

by Lefty Coaster 2008-04-14 07:13PM | 0 recs
Ed Rendell

thinks you're wrong, too.

About that supposedly major flap over Barack Obama's comments about "bitter" Pennsylvanians? Well, Hillary Clinton's top surrogate here, Governor Ed Rendell, just told reporters that it's not terribly significant - either in the primary, or the general election.

"I think it will cost a couple of points at the margin," Rendell said of the primary race here, "but it's not a sea change."

And Rendell said it would mean even less in the general election if Obama is the nominee. "By the time November rolls around, I think this comment will be long forgotten," he said."

Ooopsie.

by MBNYC 2008-04-14 07:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Ed Rendell

Rendell has been commenting on the content, however, and remarking that the comments were strange and confusing and disputing them by saying that we are not bitter.  He is a democrat and is not going to put down either of them, and he is not going to say something that could come back to bite him in the fall. It is simple political maneuvering for him to say that.

by Scotch 2008-04-14 07:50PM | 0 recs
Or...

...he could just be stating the obvious and what we're seeing from polls, perhaps.

Like I said, be my guest and continue down this path. I'm firmly convinced it's hurting you folks. That ad, in a Democratic primary, is hilarious; and it wouldn't be Clinton's first self-inflicted wound, would it?

by MBNYC 2008-04-14 07:57PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Now this is high humor:

"Umm... he does realize this is the big show - grown up politics right?  I mean I know he's never faced a tough opponent before but he's old enough to have seen the primary season unfold in years past."

And Hillary has faced what tough opponent? And has she done as well as she expected, given her problems with embroidering her tales, claiming sniper fire and passing SCHIP and FMLA and not supporting NAFTA...

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:16PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Let's see.  Obama faced Allen Keyes, after purging the ballot of democratic opponents by having them disqualified.  And Clinton won two elections in New York that were hard fought, against  actual competitors.(Sorry his name is not right on the tip of my tongue, but her opponents weren't the cakewalk Keyes was)

by Scotch 2008-04-14 07:44PM | 0 recs
Not true.

She ran as First Lady against a three-term Congressman, and then in 2006 against the loopy mayor of Yonkers, who had zero money.

Not exactly top-tier opponents.

by MBNYC 2008-04-14 07:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Not true.

Nuh-uh. Lazio was an UNSTOPPABLE ELECTORAL JUGGERNAUT! Like a machine he was. A flailing, likely developmentally disabled machine.

He was Hypno-toad before being Hypno-toad was cool.

All praise to the Hypno-toad.

Obama merely had a field of extremely qualified Democrats to deal with. Which he did. Keyes was just the sad thing that followed whatshisname, the guy who made you feel sorry for the Star Trek lady in the breasy costume.

I imagine the 08 election will be kind of like that. Once Obama gets in the ring with Gwampa, it'll be over before it begins. Bob Barr may have a better chance at second.

by Lettuce 2008-04-14 09:17PM | 0 recs
more humor

There are barely enough fingers in the world to count the number of times her supporters and Sen. Clinton have complained about rough treatment by Sen. Obama or his campaign.

Do they "realize this is the big show"?  Do they understand this is all "grown up politics".  

Fair is fair.

by Trond Jacobsen 2008-04-15 07:53AM | 0 recs
It is passing

The Story will be on Clinton by the debate.

Did she go too far?
Are the Clinton's in the place to call somebody elitists?

Watch and see, the media can't handle the same frame for three days in a row.

by CardBoard 2008-04-14 07:19PM | 0 recs
Re: It is passing

Yep, exactly.  Scandals blow up when the person embroiled decides to stonewall or lie or otherwise fight.  Then the story becomes about that.   Without a massive mistake, the only spin this story can take is to focus on Clinton's attempt to exploit it.

If I have to make a prediction, Clinton will make some sort of comment about this in the debate and it'll bomb, leading to two days talking about that.

by thezzyzx 2008-04-14 07:24PM | 0 recs
Re: It is passing

I can imagine it:

"It's not just change you can Xerox, it's change you can CLING to! Ha Ha! Tina Fey's in my five, you know. Stop picking on me!"

by Lettuce 2008-04-14 07:34PM | 0 recs
Re: It is passing

Will she want to go first this time?

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:42PM | 0 recs
Re: It is passing

I thought it was interesting that she won the coin toss for CNN's ridiculously-named Compassion Forum and opted to go first. As a result, she got hustled off stage after her comments, but Obama got to spend the entire post-forum analysis shaking hands with the crowd while the cameras rolled. An odd choice, especially given her "why do I always get the first question" remark in the previous debate.

by jdusek 2008-04-14 08:46PM | 0 recs
Re: It is passing

lol yea I agree.. I mean going first she gets to set the debate and frame the candidate and answers in everyone's mind..

I think the fact of the matter is that it's not a bad thing to get the first question in a debate... she just wanted to complain and play the victim card so people would feel sorry for her.  She should want  to get the first question in the debate...  ESPECIALLY when in the past it's usually been about Health care.  I mean oh no I have to frame the debate again that Obama doesn't have mandates in his health care plan.  "Woe is me."

by jturn17 2008-04-15 11:01AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Folks...I'm telling you the truth here...I'm from PA and the news and newspapers have let go of this subject....Most rational people do not care and hate the idea of the same old politics being played...the ONLY people who continue to press this issue are die hard Clinton supporters and die hard Obama supporters who fight back...the real people who are truly affected by this economy, see it as politicians attempting to hide the true problem and facing it...

by hootie4170 2008-04-14 07:27PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

How dare you presume to speak for people in your home state when the people here know the issues that will dominate your primary?

by rfahey22 2008-04-14 07:32PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Folks, I'm from PA, too.  Funny how hootie and I share the same state, but seem to live on different planets.  The story is still playing in my PA, I don't know about yours.

by Scotch 2008-04-14 07:39PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

What  part of PA???

by hootie4170 2008-04-14 08:06PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Around Mercyhurst Colllege, right...So Erie or Meadville?? Your stations are WJET, WSEE and WISU...it's great to have the dish sometimes...The big story in NW PA was Ted Kennedy stumping for Barack at Penn State Behrand, right??

by hootie4170 2008-04-14 08:19PM | 0 recs
Re: How It Plays In Pennsylvania

This was never just about Pennsylvania.  This is about putting your foot in your mouth time and again.  This is about being a total neophyte when it comes to accomplishments, leadership and political savvy.  This is about having to spend so much time on damage control that you can't campaign effectively.  This is about loading the gun with which the Republican smear army will shoot you.  

The superdelegates know this and they are watching carefully.

Obama supporters know it, too.  That's why their sudden spate of really nasty TRs here and the insistence of so many of them on having the last word...or words in the case of one who replied to his own comment four times.

That having been said, I'm done reading these diaries.  I will be content to wait until the polls come out after people have had the opportunity to reflect on the events of the past several days.  

I'm betting they won't be kind to Mr. Obama but that's just my opinion.

by creeper1014 2008-04-15 10:53AM | 0 recs
Hillary's Smear Army took their best shot

Can the McCain smear campaign be any more poisonous than Hillary's smear campaign?

I doubt it.

by Lefty Coaster 2008-04-15 11:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary's Smear Army took their best shot

Ask Max Cleland.  Or John Kerry.  Or Al Gore.

by creeper1014 2008-04-15 02:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary's Smear Army took their best shot

None of them faced a visious opponent who used Republicans style attacks against them in the Democratic primary.

by Lefty Coaster 2008-04-15 03:24PM | 0 recs
To bad Jon Stewart just destroyed

your talking point.

Can't wait to see your next act.

by pinche tejano 2008-04-14 07:29PM | 0 recs
Re: To bad Jon Stewart just destroyed

What did he say? I didn't see it.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:38PM | 0 recs
Re: To bad Jon Stewart just destroyed

Stewart was ruthless tonight.

"I want an elite President!"

Awesome.

by jdusek 2008-04-14 08:40PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Alegre do you still believe what you wrote over at Kos??

"I've decided to go on "strike" and will refrain from posting here as long as the administrators allow the more disruptive members of our community to trash Hillary Clinton and distort her record without any fear of consequence or retribution.  I will not be posting at DailyKos effective immediately.  I will not help drive up traffic or page-hits as long as my candidate - a good and fine DEMOCRAT - is attacked in such a horrid and sexist manner not only by other diarists, but by several of those posting to the front page.

There's more

Alegre's diary :: ::

Instead, I will put my energy into posting at sites where my efforts aren't routinely trashed, spammed and ridiculed by a handful of angry, petty and spiteful folks who clearly have too much time on their hands.  

This is a strike - a walkout over unfair writing conditions at DailyKos. It does not mean that if conditions get better I won't "work" at DailyKos again.  As a regular contributor to the discourse in our community, I would certainly hope to take part in the conversation at DailyKos again some day if we ever get to the point where we're engaging each other in discussion rather than facing off in shouting matches. But not now. Writers need a safe place to reach out and exchange ideas, to communicate and challenge one another. DailyKos should be that place, but its tone, its essence has evolved into something ugly and destructive. Good writers can't survive in that kind of atmosphere.  Democrats shouldn't have to put up with that from fellow Democrats.

by hootie4170 2008-04-14 07:32PM | 0 recs
Really good diary, alegre. Something you

quoted from Paul Krugman really struck me:

And what are the grounds for his supercilious disdain? If he were a war hero, if he had a career of remarkable civic achievement or public service -- then he could perhaps be excused an unattractive but in a sense understandable hauteur. But what has Barack Obama accomplished that entitles him to look down on his fellow Americans?

I would add to that, what has Barack Obama accomplished that allows him to slide on this one. What has he achieved that gives him a pass when he steps into it? Consider him caricatured. I don't see how he can survive against McCain at this point.

by Rumarhazzit 2008-04-14 07:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Really good diary, alegre. Something you

Those Princeton profs who threw their lot in with Clinton sure are miffed.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Really good diary, alegre. Something you

I just happened to notice you have been posting since 8:30 this morning, with just a couple hours break.  What's up with that?  Blogging can be addicting, I'll admit.

by Scotch 2008-04-14 07:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Really good diary, alegre. Something you

I'm working on a book now. So I usually write for about an hour and then blog for a bit, sometimes too long....But the chapter is shaping up nicely now!

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Really good diary, alegre. Something you

lmao,

that'll be a humdinger...

What's it called?

OBAMA - BITTERNESS YOU CAN CLING TO

by switching sides 2008-04-15 12:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Really good diary, alegre. Something you

No, it's about the rise of polling and its impact on American politics.  Good stuff!

by politicsmatters 2008-04-15 05:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Really good diary, alegre. Something you

You will have to let us all know when it's out so that you can give everyone a free copy.  ;-)

by jturn17 2008-04-15 11:07AM | 0 recs
Wait a week

"Consider him caricatured. I don't see how he can survive against McCain at this point."

That's the story today.  It won't be once this tempest in a teapot has passed - we all know what he meant.  

It's pretty obvious that Obama doesn't believe that religion is beneath him (sorry, Bill Kristol).  To be honest, that's the thing about him I like least - he really is religious - but I accept that as the price of winning office in America.

by TL 2008-04-14 08:17PM | 0 recs
He's going to win regardless.

by dystopianfuturetoday 2008-04-14 07:38PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing...

Krugman's being really smarmy here -- I'd be dollars to donuts he's written on this issue in the past using similar terms and the same conclusions.

But Krugman isn't any more an honest analytical broker here than Alegre -- he's got an ax to grind, and pushing this story gets the job done. It's McCain's job, but we're beyond that.

Krugman's argument requires you to believe that Obama is, in fact, looking down his nose at Americans. Funny, this "what has he done" argument didn't seem to be a motivator for Krugman when accomplished military volunteer and vet Jeremiah Wright surfaced in the news a few weeks back.

I assume I view Krugman the way Hillary supporters view Olbermann. What planet is the guy on? I know he can't really believe what he's writing, can he? Can't he see the double standard? Can't he see how this hurts his reputation.

All will be forgiven once Kruggie's efforts are directed at McCain. I just hope he's on more solid ground than he is now. It's not even solid ground now. It's foggy pretend ground, like the kind you see Wile E. Coyote standing on, before he looks down, sees that he's about to fall, holds up a sign that reads "Ooops" and plummets in a comical, pancake-shaping splat.

by Lettuce 2008-04-14 07:42PM | 0 recs
IT'S NOT KRUGMAN FOR F*CKS SAKE!

You are totally confusing your Hillary Haterz. Shame on you for believing what alegre writes without checking for yourself.

The person who wrote those lines is William Kristol. Click the link. See for yourself.

I am not at all surprised that a vile, bloodthirsty neocon writes something and the Clinton supporters can't even tell the difference. This is how in the tank you people are for McCain. You are doing the dirty work for the GOP. You are donating your money and effort to the GOP. You are helping the GOP retain the White House.

It makes me sick.

by alvernon 2008-04-14 09:49PM | 0 recs
Yawn

It's been said before, but it needs to be said again.

The race is over.  She fought hard, but she lost.  

And I've gotta say, the messianic messaging for some time now has all been coming out of the Clinton campaign.  She's got to stay in the race to save the Democratic electorate from itself - we don't realize that if we nominate Obama, we're doomed.  

Mrs. Clinton, please get over yourself.

by TL 2008-04-14 08:11PM | 0 recs
On Clinging

It's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Almost everything I've seen in the many discussions of this remark concentrate on the nouns, primarily guns and religion.  I want to say a few words about the verb cling.

But before I get to the verb, there's something else I need to say.  I strongly believe that the first thing that pops out of a person's mouth - that first response that comes out without thinking - comes the closest to what the person actually feels.  It springs from the subconscious without interference from the brain.  As the person then thinks about what he or she said and gauges the response, he or she starts to back off, changes the response, and otherwise softens that first knee-jerk statement.  That's very close to spinning, whereas the truth was probably embodied in the first response.

Okay, the verb cling.  Some exerpts from Webster:

1 a:  to hold to each other cohesively and firmly...

I don't think that's what Obama was talking about.
1 b:  to hold or hold on tightly or tenaciously (as with the hands or feet) and to resist pressure to separate or dislodge

Not quite, but closer.
1 c:  to become situated as if holding firmly and resisting pressure...

Not really.
2 a:  now dial Brit:  to become emaciated:SHRINK, SHRIVEL, WITHER

No cigar.
3 a:  to have a strong emotional attachment or dependence
3 b(1):  to have or continue to have strong emotional or intellectual loyalty or stubborn attachment or belief
3 b(2):  to continue on a course of action or policy as if resisting efforts to interrupt or distract
3 b(3):  to hold on tenaciously as if resisting dispossession

Bingo.  There is more, but this third sense of the word is the one Obama was using.

Now, consider the examples Webster uses in this third definition:

Weak-willed and purposeless, he clung to all who offered the least sign of sympathy.
...clinging pathetically to his worn-out creeds and dogmas.
...clung to the hope that her son had survived.
...clingling grimly to his few wretched acres.

Weak-willed.  Purposeless.  Pathetically.  Hope against hope.  Grimly.  You see, there's a strong pejorative connotation in the use of the word cling.  It suggests stubbornness and desperation.  Obama could have said that people in dire economic straits try to divert themselves and escape their troubles through outdoor activities (leaving out the "guns" part to keep his comment from becoming too sexist).  He could have said that such people turn to their faith to gain the strength and courage to press ahead.  He even could have said that it's natural to look for external forces as the cause of their misery, such as illegal immigrants and minorities who are taking what jobs are available (but it would have been risky to do so).

But he didn't say those things.  He said that they CLING to guns and religion, and the negative connotation of the word indicated that he was implying blame, not sympathy or empathy, and further implying that if they were people of more substance and character - people with the inner resources to carry on on their own, they wouldn't have to cling to anything.

by stan81747 2008-04-14 08:26PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Just thought I would share a few letters to the editor to our newspaper in Pittsburgh:

I live happily in a small township and, yes, I am bitter.
I am bitter that drilling for oil in ANWR and other areas is prohibited.

I am bitter that some would like to have higher gas taxes so as to improve our environment. (One poor soul suggested $7 per gallon!)

I am bitter that the Democratic Party is using superdelegates whom no one has voted for but who will decide the winning candidate because "they know what is best for the party."

I am bitter that our Democrat commissioners in Fayette County added a $3 bed tax on our local hotels so as to keep our tourism competitive. They said it, not I.

And I am bitter that a candidate who has earned more than $100 million in the past seven years and whose husband is head of a $500 million charity has the nerve to call someone else an elitist.

I could go on but that would only cause me more bitterness.

Buzz Shallenberger
Lower Tyrone Township
---------------------------------------- ---------

The dictionary defines "bitter" as "hard to bear; grievous; distressful."

The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review says that Pennsylvania has lost nearly 202,000 manufacturing jobs since 2001.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, 1.6 million Pennsylvanians are without health insurance.

Are Pennsylvanians bitter? You tell me.

Matthew Mobilio
Carlisle
---------------------------------------- ---------

As a resident of a small town in Pennsylvania, I want to comment on what Barack Obama said about why some residents of small towns in Pennsylvania are bitter.
And I want to express my bitterness and frustration that nothing ever changes in my small town for the better. I want to make you aware of how much apathy really does exist.

We are tired of empty promises; the lack of full-time work; jobs with no benefits; run-down stores, roads and homes; no prospects for the future; and poor schools that cannot educate our children properly and give them any hope for their futures.

Those who "have" in my town are fine, but the "have nots" have nothing but a bleak future to look forward to. That is, unless real changes and progress take place in Washington and across this nation.

Sen. Obama may "have" a little now, but he came from the same roots and lived through the same despair that many of us face. He is an example of how hard work, faith in yourself and a little help can go a long way to improve people's lives.
I heard nothing purposely meant to be offensive in Sen. Obama's words but I did find a lot of truth. It would be a real shame if we allow ourselves to get caught up in the "political games" being played and lose sight of what is really important for our country and its people.

Margaret Vogel
Greensburg
---------------------------------------- ---------
From the people of PA

by hootie4170 2008-04-14 08:37PM | 0 recs
ADMINS!

I cannot stress this strongly enough.  These diaries are great, with the videos and the block quotes, but they really beat around the bush.  When I say I'm looking for a rush I mean I need it THIS INSTANT!  That's why I'm asking, please.  I got to have my Clinton campaign talking points straight UP!  I'm talkin, mainlined straight into my adoring belted-up arm.  
Go ahead now and give me the link.  I'm ready.
And put it right up front where I can see it, right at the top of the menu.  

Here, just C&P this:
http://www.hillaryhub.com/

Thanks in advance.

by haystax calhoun 2008-04-14 08:44PM | 0 recs
Meanwhile, in America

Senator Clinton continues to drop in the polls with considerable over GosheverythingisswellwheredidyouhireYOUR butlerGate.

Don't forget to donate! Your campaign donation will go to a vital cause: putting that $5 mil loan back in the Clintons' pocket.

by Quicklund 2008-04-14 08:55PM | 0 recs
Please...for your own sake....

Let it go.  This is not the issue.  This is not the knock out punch.  Your relentless pushing and pushing of this and dreaming and praying that this is what will make America wake up and see Hillary is the saint of the Universe and Obama is the devils spawn is not going to result from this.

Im not saying something cant come up that will end up fulfilling all your dreams about Hillary and prayers for the demise of Obama, but this most certainly is not it.  For pretty simple reasons....

What Obama said is true.  While he should rightfully get slammed for the way he said it, the underlying message is right.  I think you and the die hard Hillary supporters are so lost in your desire to crush Obama that you cant see the reality of the issue in front of you.  The only way this issue would stick and destroy Obama is if a) times werent tough and people werent bitter (or frustrated or scared) or b) Obama used the comments in a 'dumb rubes' trickster/used car salesman sort of way.  Neither of which are true.

So what you and those praying for the almightys intervention on Hillarys behalf dont get is that most people and especially most democrats wholeheartedly agree with the premise of the original statements.  And those that dont are divorced from reality.

So instead of tackling the issue where Hillary chastises Obama for being inarticulate and then she restates what he was trying to say in an articulate and empathetic manner you jump at the attack.  The problem is by attacking first and clumsily, Hillary let Obama off the hook and allowed him to clarify his position and advance the issue further on his terms.

Are you so blinded by your love for Hillary (an alarming kind of love if you ask me) and your hate for Obama that you really cant see how silly this is and how deep you and Hillary are digging your own holes on this?  Attacking the truth is never a good idea.

I dont mean to be attacking here, but you seem to be crossing a really weird line where any sense of rationality doesnt creep in and your posts are becoming more and more unhinged.

Love of your candidate is one thing, but the direction you have taken is borderline 'misery'-esque disturbing.

Just so you know, whatever the oucome of the primary, I'll be voting dem.  Sure I have a preference but at least I can admit when he is wrong and when she is right.

Its time to grow up and bring yourself back over to sanity's side.  Hillary is not the savior and Obama is not the devil.  If Hillary loses, the sun will still rise in the morning and rain will still fall (as will be the case if Obama loses).

I think you need a vacation.

by pattonbt 2008-04-14 08:59PM | 0 recs
So Hillary Clinton


   says that we should nominate someone, not based on their credentials, or the votes they got, but on fear of the GOP targeting them?

  As if the GOP won't paint Hillary as elitist (she's been far removed from working class America for the last 3 decades).

  Now she doesn't even want Democrats deciding the nomination for themselves based on their own merits or values. She wants them to decide based solely on fear of the GOP...my what a winning strategy!!!

by southernman 2008-04-14 09:37PM | 0 recs
Re: So Hillary Clinton

You are right, this is a losing strategy.

The Clinton strategy has always been to "make it about them", because if "we make it about us" we lose".  Bill's words right there.
We need to hold a light to the the last eight years and how McCain extends that path, but we need to show how we its going to be different.

by haystax calhoun 2008-04-15 08:56AM | 0 recs
Legs or velcro?
The AP says, "Yes, some Democrats in Pennsylvania's Rust Belt communities were upset by Barack Obama's suggestion that voters there 'cling to guns or religion' because of bitterness about their economic lot. But many more seem to think it was no big deal -- and if there's a problem it's with the political slapfest that has followed."

This is your fifth diary on the subject, right, Alegre? I understand: you've been fishing for something to use against Obama, and you thought you'd hooked a whopper, but it's turned out to be an old tire. Now you've nailed a couple of two-by-fours to it, and you're pointing to it and crying, "Look! It's got legs! It's got legs!"

I mean, keep it alive if you want, but it seems like most people understand what Obama meant. Obama's comments seemed less elitist to me, frankly, than the assumption that the voters in PA wouldn't be able to put his words in context: "Of course, we know what he meant, but the rural voters are just going to go by the sound bite..."
by jere7my 2008-04-14 09:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Legs or velcro?

Wow, that's a great visual metaphor.  mad props.

by ashriver 2008-04-15 05:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Legs or velcro?
I understand: you've been fishing for something to use against Obama, and you thought you'd hooked a whopper, but it's turned out to be an old tire. Now you've nailed a couple of two-by-fours to it, and you're pointing to it and crying, "Look! It's got legs! It's got legs!"
"Alegre's Hobby Horse" just keeled over....(look downthread at Skaje's post)
by jwolf 2008-04-15 06:27AM | 0 recs
The ironic part is....

this is exactly the same type of trash that many claim was the reason they were boycotting Kos.  I suspect the desperation of inevitability is starting to weigh heavily on the Clinton die-hards as much as it is on the candidate herself, who seems to be lashing out at every Democrat in sight that isn't drinking her Koolaid (Gore, Kerry, etc.)

by Seeking Cincinnatus 2008-04-14 10:11PM | 0 recs
These diaries have become a parody of themselves

Let's see - putting it all together, we find that Obama is an orange juice drinking, slumlord loving elitist, secret Muslim leftist who likes Ronald Reagan and can't bowl.

You folks are definitely on to something over here.

by jaywillie 2008-04-15 12:47AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

This was crossposted from http://hillarysbloggers.soapblox.net/

Alegre seems to not want people to know that she writes for that blog, then cuts and pastes her diaries here.  She's a full-time worker.

by mikeinsf 2008-04-15 01:02AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing

by Skaje 2008-04-15 01:15AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing
Awesome, Skaje!
by jwolf 2008-04-15 04:18AM | 0 recs
The Hypocricy . . . Will Alegre Ever Shake it Off?

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Ever notice how people become the things they oppose? You know, like how GW Bush turned into Osama Bin Laden? Or how Alegre has became the Dkos diarists she went on "strike" against?

Funny how that happens. How's that working out for you Alegre? Free to hate on your own blog? Don't you get tired putting so much negative energy into the world: or, should I say, don't you question it? You can't create by destroying (well, you can, but not how you're going about it).

Aren't there better things for all of us to do with our time?

As for SF politics: I pay nearly 1k a month to rent a room in a house (in fact, it is a moldy, damp, first floor basement). I won't ever own a house or have a mortgage because I live in SF, which is where my public service work is. Everyone I know in SF is a worker and, like me, works and works and works and works, and finds it harder and harder to actually live (because all the public policy in this city is geared toward the wealthy and not the lower or middle class, which is being squeezed as much as, if in different ways than, working people in Penn.). You show your true colors, Alegre, when you impugn the working people of this city. Moreover, 1k for a fundraiser is nothing compared to the 100 million HRC is worth. And it's obscene that you've now picked up 1980's talking points against your fellow Dems (San Francisco Liberals). How very "kind" of you to do that. With friends like these . . . .

by DrPolitics 2008-04-15 01:26AM | 0 recs
Re: The Hypocricy . . . Will Alegre Ever Shake it

I think you could add that Hillary Clinton has become a Republican running in a Democratic Primary.

Not exactly, but I mean she's using right-wing talking points against Obama at nearly every stop...  

To clarify for the Clinton supporters, I'm not saying Clinton is a Republican, but I am saying that she's becoming the "vast right-wing conspiracy" that's opposing Obama.

by jturn17 2008-04-15 11:15AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

I hope they're paying you well, Alegre. The fact that this diary, which quotes BILL KRISTOL, is and should be embarrassing to you.

by amiches 2008-04-15 03:03AM | 0 recs
Another $20 for Barack Obama

This silly diary makes another $20 for Obama by making the rec list.

by fwiffo3 2008-04-15 04:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Another $20 for Barack Obama

(That's $220 total so far; alegre is responsible for $100 of that all by her lonesome).

by fwiffo3 2008-04-15 04:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Another $20 for Barack Obama

I just added $100 for myself.  Alegre really should be on the obama payroll at this point...

by Rockville Liberal 2008-04-15 09:54AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake

This Alegre guy?  Will he ever stop writing Anti-Obama diaries?

by chewie5656 2008-04-15 04:44AM | 0 recs
Worth repeating

Alegre, when the day coms that the almost universally acknowledged as great President Obama has schools, bridges, interstates and even a battleship named after him, you will shudder. And when your cowardly pathetic frame glances up at Mount Rushmore and sees his inspiring face, I hope it is then you realize just how pathetic you were not to have had enough sense to have recognized greatness when it enterered our lives.  And then at that moment I hope your grandchildren are with you and you are forced to admit, tears in your eyes, how big of a fool you were.  And how glad you are to have been wrong.  I hope I am there when that happens.

by Todd Bennett 2008-04-15 05:08AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

5 Diaries from one person on one topic???

I disagree fully with this cut and paste job.

by Bobby Obama 2008-04-15 05:12AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel
ah...
Quin poll taken after remarks shows no difference from previous poll still 6%
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1327.xml?Rele aseID=1168
by nogo war 2008-04-15 05:22AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel
And this is what I want fro our next Prez
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attyt ood/Barack_on_torture.html
by nogo war 2008-04-15 05:24AM | 0 recs
superdelgates not offended

Uncommitted superdelegates agree with Obama and want Clinton to stop this.

From today's Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2008/04/14/AR2008041403057. html

Rep. Mike Doyle (D), an undecided superdelegate who represents Pittsburgh and surrounding towns in the Monongahela Valley, said yesterday that he was not particularly troubled by Obama's comments.

"I don't disagree with a lot of what he said. My dad was a mill worker. My grandfather was a steel mill worker, and when the steel industry collapsed, nobody's family was hurt more than mine," Doyle said. "It's not inaccurate to say a lot of politicians have come through these towns, made a lot of promises and failed to deliver. I thought he was spot-on when he said how people feel."

He added that Obama's unexpected endorsement yesterday by Pittsburgh Steelers owner Dan Rooney "carries a hell of a lot more weight" than the blowup over his comments about small-town residents.

Rep. David E. Price, an uncommitted Democrat from North Carolina, which holds its primary May 6, said his frustrations are with Clinton, for the potential damage she has inflicted.

"Senator Obama could have chosen better words, but it seems to me that he's stating the obvious," Price said. "People are feeling a great deal of economic stress, anxiety, and there is a certain amount of anger out there. . . . I think it's most unfortunate that opponents simply pounce, particularly opponents in his own party."

by politicsmatters 2008-04-15 05:44AM | 0 recs
Re: superdelgates not offended

Spot on.

Also, if you look at the GE electoral vote counter at the top of MYDD, HRC is getting BLOWN OUT by McCain. Obama is too close to call at this point.

Why is she the "better candidate" again?

That deserves it's own diary, but I have neither the time nor skill to write it myself :D.

by Darknesse 2008-04-15 07:12AM | 0 recs
Re: superdelgates not offended

"Too close to call" if you accept the lunatic notion that McCain is going to win in New York. You'd almost think whoever was making those maps wanted to make things look as bad as possible for Obama while attenuating the disastrous news for Clinton, as in continuing the fiction that she's going to take Florida, thus only losing to McCain by a hundred EVs.

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-15 08:31AM | 0 recs
One question

When is anyone - anyone - who thinks Sen. Obama's comments will be his end going to address the only available data we have?  The diary consists of quotes from a slew of commentators, bloggers, and partisans.  Many comments in this and the other threads affirm those opinions with their own.  Opinions are great things but they do not beat scientific poll results.  And if opinions are the end all be all source for interpreting popular sentiment, isn't the most powerful Dem in the state and Clinton's leading booster, Gov. Rendell, saying the comments amount to nothing worth more than less seasoned folks weighing in with their predictions of doom?

When is someone going to answer the data that says people are not responding in the manner folks like Alegre have predicted?  I've read through this thread three times now and there is not a single credible response to the polling data from politicsmatters, only more bloviating - on both sides for the most part.

http://www.mediacurves.com/Politics/J679 /ReportJ6797.pdf

People ask why does Sen. Obama keep bringing the issue up?  Well, the answer is right there.  When people form opinions based on early media coverage and Clinton press releases, many have negative impressions but as they hear the comments (and presumably Obama's responses) those sentiments fade.  Obama keeps bringing it up because doing so is helping his campaign.

While a number of polls show Sen. Clinton with a wide lead in PA (thankfully) the polls all over the place and the only really solid conclusion we should draw from them (other than ignoring them if we wish) is that movement is minimal, in many polls within the MOE.

This episode has done much to improve my (already quite favorable) assessment of the intelligence of voters.  There are strong reasons to prefer Clinton over Obama, for me health care being the key issue.  But apparently, based on the available data, most actual voters are not moved by this ginned up controversy, particularly as they learn more about the intended sentiments and as they reflect on the reality that, you know, things are not going swimmingly in the industrial heartland.

One more thing.  The PA episode is part of a larger effort by highly-partisan Clinton supporters to establish that Obama can not win working-class whites in the rust best.  So what do these folks make of the fact that the latest EPIC-MRA poll out of Michigan has Obama beating McCain who beats Clinton, in both cases outside the MOE.
http://www.mlive.com/elections/index.ssf /2008/04/obama_does_better_against_mcca. html

Wasn't Obama's stance on re-voting supposed to deliver the state to McCain while Clinton's position and her "natural appeal" to the working class going to carry the state for her?  

Data.  It's a wonderful tie-breaker in opinion-slinging contests.

by Trond Jacobsen 2008-04-15 06:07AM | 0 recs
Re: One question

This Obama supporter thanks you for your level-headed take on this non-issue.

by jdusek 2008-04-15 09:35AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER

Hillary is taking this campaign to a new low.  Do you have any indication that she would support Obama, if gets the nomination?  Or will she sit back, let McCain use her talking points and say I told you so?

Ads like this make me think it's the latter.

by chewie5656 2008-04-15 06:29AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Let's see.... Clintion gets booed for mentioning it, Wolfson and alegre continue to flog a dead horse, PA polls show small voter interest, national polls show Obama's lead among Dems steady, while Clinton continues to lose ground against McCain (see EV maps on homepage.... not pretty).

I pretty much figured Clinton and her camp would overplay this and wind up looking desperate and silly. A week till the vote, and this is all they've got. More negativity.

Clinton's the one who ought to quite clinging to this particular straw.

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-15 06:48AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

There is no question in my mind that we lose the general if Obama is the nominee.

The Republicans already have more ammunition than they could possibly use against him, and this gaffe gives them even more.

I will never understand why the Obamacans refuse to see that his nomination will give us yet another presidential defeat. But there is no talking to them anymore. They are so hell-bent on defeating Clinton that they don't seem to care about the general election and the loss that looms ahead. What a nightmare.

by cc 2008-04-15 07:35AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

yep, playing that Tuzla tape over & over will assure victory.

I for one am convinced that a Hillary nomination means an automatic McCain victory.  I'll I'll vote for her, hopelessly, but just tune out the race because I don't want to endure the pain.

Who is left who she hasn't offended- older, uneducated, non latte drinking, non wine drinking, white, suburban, women who don't mind spoken to as if they are idiots?

Go ahead, ride that to victory.

by wrb 2008-04-15 08:09AM | 0 recs
dont make out as if Clinton have no

skeletons in their closets and have somehow been utterly vetted.

If anything given that Hillary is running on experience in Bill's White House, there is a much larger target.. given the two of them.

by Priest Valon 2008-04-15 08:17AM | 0 recs
Re: dont make out as if Clinton have no

And they still haven't released the list of library donors:

"I think Barack Obama has a much stronger chance of beating John McCain in the general election. I think Hillary is flawed in many ways, and particularly if you look at her husband's unwillingness to release the names of the people who contributed to his presidential library.
And the reason that is important -- you know, are there favors attached to $500,000 or $1 million contributions? And what do I mean by favors? I mean, pardons that are granted; investigations that are squelched; contracts that are awarded; regulations that are delayed.

These are important questions. The people deserve to know. And we deserve, as Democrats, to know before a nominee is selected, because we don't want things to explode in a general election against John McCain." -- Sen Bill Btadley (Ret)

by wrb 2008-04-15 08:28AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Yeah, have you noticed how John McCain has been echoing Obama's attacks on Clinton, and how Karl Rove and Fox News have been downplaying Bittergate and Preachergate while making hay out of Bill's business dealings and the Tuzla fantasy and playing old tapes of Hillary agreeing with John McCain and Lindsey Graham on Iraq. It's almost as if they're trying to tear Clinton down to make sure Obama is the nomine....

....Oh, wait a minute... I have that exactly backwards, don't I.

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-15 08:27AM | 0 recs
And there's no question in my mind

that my roomate definitely stole that sandwich out of the fridge in 1992.

But like you, I have nothing to back it up.  In fact, testimony from others seems to prove me wrong.  Good thing we didn't have any polling to tell us one way or the other.

by McNasty 2008-04-15 09:56AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

I think it is time the FBI raided Hillaryis44.  

That is some crazy stuff. You know they only let out the least scary to hand out their literature. What if there are children in there? Are they manufacturing WMDs? Do they have weapons? Are they pink?

by wrb 2008-04-15 08:03AM | 0 recs
Bitter

Bitter, thy name is alegre.

by temptxan 2008-04-15 08:37AM | 0 recs
On the duck blind packin' a six-shooter!

Mr. Obama said:

"...she's talking like she's Annie Oakley!  Hillary Clinton's out there like she's on the duck blind every Sunday, she's packin' a six shooter! C'mon! She knows better."

What is clear from Obama's absurd statement is that he knows absolutely nothing about hunting, guns, and blinds.

One doesn't hunt from "on" the duck blind, one hunts from "in" the duck blind.  Further, the weapon of choice for duck hunters is a 12-gauge shotgun, not a six-shooter.

by BigBoyBlue 2008-04-15 08:38AM | 0 recs
Re: On the duck blind packin' a six-shooter!

or he was making a further point about Hil's hunting prowess?  :-)

I love the image ... Hillary standing on a duck blind waving her six shooter at some birds that might be ducks.

by wrb 2008-04-15 08:43AM | 0 recs
Annie Oakley used a six-shooter.

Duh.

You guys are really, really scraping the bottom of the barrel.  Let me know when future President Obama misplaces an apostrophe, mmmmkay?

by McNasty 2008-04-15 09:53AM | 0 recs
About The Cling Thing...

According to Ed Rendell, it's not a big deal.

http://thepage.time.com/2008/04/14/rende ll-says-cling-aint-no-big-thing/

I wish Hillary wouldn't have done an ad on this.  Let this thing play out with all the attention that it's already received.  I think she's ventured into overplaying her hand.  Why Hillary? Why?

by venavena 2008-04-15 08:48AM | 0 recs
Re: "Explain" Their Frustrations?

I hadn't realized the nonsense reflected in Obama's words till just now.  How can "clinging to guns and religion" "explain" someone's frustrations.  Help them cope, maybe...but explain?  Not only was that line offensive, it was illogical to boot.

by creeper1014 2008-04-15 08:52AM | 0 recs
Re: "Explain" Their Frustrations?

Consider for a moment the popular sentiment on how Al Qaeda fills its ranks, by preying on the poorest of the poor, the disenfranchised, whose minds are fueled by twisted religious extremism. Would you think its a fair characterization to say that these people are bitter? We hear, make, and accept these judgments... routinely. Are we being elitist?

A man takes a trip through rural America and sees poverty, failed promises, and people who are so thirsty for leadership that in the absence of it they are ready to drink the sand. And your problem is that he has the audacity to call them bitter..?

WTF is going on here?

by CanuckinMA 2008-04-15 11:19AM | 0 recs
the easy and healthful way

"By Annie B. Bond, author of Better Basics for the Home (Three Rivers Press, 1999).

There is only one reason why fabric softeners and dryer sheets are added to the washing machine or dryer: To eliminate static cling!

But commercial fabric softeners can make you sick. According to a study by Anderson Laboratories, many commercial formulas emit chemical fumes like toluene, styrene and phenol that can cause acute respiratory tract inflammation and irritation.

But what to do when dry winter air makes static-laden skirts scrunch and bunch, and pants creep up to your knees?

Learn the easy all-natural ways to banish static cling from your laundry, including the fabulous metal hanger trick that you can use on already-clean clothes!

1. Add either of these cling-busting additions to your laundry wash cycle:
1/4 cup vinegar
1/4 cup or less borax

2. Add 1/4 cup vinegar to the rinse cycle.

3. Switch to a "green" fabric softener, like those made by Seventh Generation or Ecover, made with vegetable-based surfactants, salt, and natural scents.

4. Choose clothing made from natural fibers; they don't get static cling as readily.

5. Shake out your clothes when you remove them from the drier.

6. The metal hanger trick for already-clean clothes: Put on the garment. If it is a skirt or dress, simply reach up underneath it with a metal hanger and brush the inside of the garment with it, top to bottom. If it's pants, elongate the hanger and reach up inside each pant leg, brushing downward."

hope this relieves your worries

by wrb 2008-04-15 09:09AM | 0 recs
Re: the easy and healthful way

Gallup tracking poll today;(aPRIL 12-14TH)

Obama 51
Clinton 40

His 11 point lead is his's largest to-date.

Rasmussen tracking poll today:

Obama 50
Clinton 41

by BDM 2008-04-15 09:30AM | 0 recs
The Cling Thing: Alegre

Join us here in reality.  There's a front page diary supporting one fact - Bittergate has no legs, feet or toes. It's a non-starter and it's backfiring.

by LtWorf 2008-04-15 09:40AM | 0 recs
"12 reasons 'bitter' is bad for Obama"

It's just painfully embarrassing reading what alegre writes.  She's probably a nice person in some context, but it is unnerving to see how badly some Clinton supporters are clinging to false hope.

by McNasty 2008-04-15 09:51AM | 0 recs
Do you honestly have nothing better to do?

This is, like, your FOURTH diary about this non-story.

If I didn't know better I would think you get paid by the word.

by JDF 2008-04-15 10:11AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahaaaaaaaaaa.........

Wow, so much about so little.

by IowaMike 2008-04-15 11:27AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

a simple question to alegre..
you post often...you are probably the leader in most Diaries REC..

a simple question...
Why have you not posted a comment concerning Rep Davis of KY?
There is a venue..and have been more for you to add your liberal voice.
Your failure to at least comment on other diaries speaks with the thunder of silence.
How shallow the waters of your political life must be.
As for me...I go swimming with the sharks wearing my colors..
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_409955 7

(and yes I fasted for the feeble 10 day sentence)

by nogo war 2008-04-15 11:42AM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

Even Clinton surrogate "Slick" Eddie Rendell, Governor of PA, says that this is much ado about nothing.

Keep trying, you may come up with something before it's too late.  Then again.. you may not.

by baghdadjoe 2008-04-15 11:50AM | 0 recs
How many diaries can you write about this?

Are you going for some kind of a record. What's the next diary going to be about, how small town Pennsylvanians think Obama's comments are elitist?

Or are you going to write one about how the comments Obama made about small town Americans being bitter is being seen as elitist?

Perhaps you will write a diary that takes Obama's comments and analysis their impact, seeing how they may be interpreted as elitist?

I wonder. If you copy/pasted this diary into a new one tomorrow, and changed the title, would it make the rec list? I think so.

by BlueGAinDC 2008-04-15 12:26PM | 0 recs
Apparently, the diarist believes

It is elitist to utilize critical thought.

by nwgates 2008-04-15 03:58PM | 0 recs
Framing the person

Rove said he would attack Obama as being arrogant.

Obama needs to work the issue.

They will also attack him as:
a Marxist (thank's Joe for the "Good Question" tip)
a closet Muslim
a Black Militant, Supremist
one of those "tall bastards" that looks down on everyone

You know who they are... Republicans.

They will attack Hillary as:
a liar
manipultive
a tax and spend liberal (add that to Obama's list)
a woman trying to act like a man
a cucquean

That's some ugly crap and it has almost nothing to do with how the candidate will lead or govern.

Anyway, get ready. It's actually already starting... isn't it? They ARE really good at this type of warfare. We, alas, are confused who the enemy is... it's like Iraq around here.

by mcdtracy 2008-04-15 01:36PM | 0 recs
Re: The Cling Thing... Will He EVER Shake This Vel

tap yer toes....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKtrz_fvm oc

by nogo war 2008-04-15 02:35PM | 0 recs
Remember Bagdad Bob?

Thats what this diary is like.

Obama!

by Silence Do Good 2008-04-15 03:44PM | 0 recs
Who's clinging?

It's not just the ordinary American that's bitter and 'clinging', seemingly.

Hillary Clinton (Clingon?) will 'fight to the bitter end' and clings desperately to Obama's alleged gaffe. Come on, isn't he allowed to 'misspeak' once in a while? ;)

I think he was right, and in no way disrespectful.
To be frank, I was amazed that a presidential candidate could speak so candidly to his fellow citizens... and I'm amazed that they take it so well. Seen from France, I can tell you this is very impressive. He expects people to be intelligent, and - of course - they are. I've never seen anything like that in politics. Now I truly believe that the damage caused by the Bush years can be healed.

This bittergate-gate is now clearly damaging Hillary. I'm surprised that Alegre keeps harping on it. Is he, like Bill, unconsciously trying to hasten Hillary's fall?

I guess at this stage supporting Hillary must feel more and more like being captured in the gravitational field of a black hole... somewhere deep inside one would like to escape and one feels one can't. But that's an illusion. There's always a way out.  

Yes you can!

by french imp 2008-04-15 04:16PM | 0 recs
People are confusing "clinging" with

"desperately clinging," as the latter is the more commonly used term.  

We cling when we are protecting that which we value and cherish.  When someone takes something away from you, e.g., a job, you cling to what you have left, not necessarily out of desperation, but with the intention of making sure that nothing else is taken from you.  We cling to our children when we hear about school shootings.  We cling to our traditions as our worlds move at a faster and faster pace.  

If some people are so insecure that they assume Obama meant clinging in the desperate sense, then maybe those people are desperate.

by MikeyB 2008-04-15 05:49PM | 0 recs
You're metaphor's kind of a poor choice, too

Velcro doesn't really work that way.  It's not something you "shake" off.

You want something more like what we call in W. PA a burr(it's spikey, round little ball that comes of a certain plant).  It might be called that elsewhere...I don't know.  I only really know about the place where I live, so I try not to say things about places I've never lived.

The point is, that's more in line with what you're going for because the little buggers are hard to shake off.

by jaywillie 2008-04-15 06:04PM | 0 recs
Clumsy comments cling

You can see the setting for the clumsy comments here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHhd1inex mk

Also shown is Obama making the comments and an irate caller to C-SPAN.

by Nobama 2008-04-15 06:55PM | 0 recs

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