She Didn't Ask The Questions & He Couldn't Answer Them

Were we watching the same debate Wed. night?  Because to hear Joe Klein and other Obama apologists talk, Hillary's suddenly the devil (republican) in Democrats clothing.  Let's get a few things straight here guys...

Hillary didn't set the tone of that debate by determining the questions - the moderators did.  To claim that she "went on the attack" is just complete and utter bullshit and it's time someone pointed that out. She had no more control over the tone of that debate than he did.  The only thing they could control as candidates and participants is how well things turned out for each of them by the answers they gave.

There's a reason people say Hillary won the debate - she handled the tough questions better than he did.  There was one question in particular that was designed to elicit one of Russert's signature gotcha moments from Hillary, and she answered it the only way she could.

Now folks have been declaring Hillary dead in the water since the Iowa results rolled in and she's proved them wrong time and time again.  New Hampshire, Nevada, Super Tuesday states and then Ohio and Texas - all of the millions of voters in those states told us this thing's not even close to being over.

And then comes Joe Klein...

He's taken Hillary's answer to a gotcha question in the debate Wednesday night (you boys thought only BO got those right?) and is trying to wave it about on one of the highest flagpoles in the land as proof that she can no longer win this thing.  She was asked about comments she may or may not have made in a conversation with Gov. Richardson.  She said yes, BO can beat McCain in the General election and that if he's our nominee, she'll do all she can to help make that happen.  She also said she's convinced she's got a better shot at beating him and that's why she was standing there in that debate Wednesday night.

She didn't say anything new Wed. night you guys - far from it.  She's been saying for months that if he gets the nod, she'll work her fingers to the bone to help put him over the top in the General election.  But Klein is clearly working from Axelrod's talking points on this one.  Forget that a) it was a political answer to a benign political question, and b) she whipped his ass on the important issues.  No, Axelrod declared that the main point of the debate and the press instantly embraced it.  

I woke up this morning with a gut feeling that the Philadelphia debate may have been the last straw for the Democratic Party, that the superdelegates are about to rush to Barack Obama in order to end this thing and liberate him to actually answer the Republican-style attacks that Hillary Clinton has been previewing. This New York Times piece is a pretty good indication of the zeitgeist. And these words from Obama pretty much sum up the current state of play:

"That [debate] was the rollout of the Republican campaign against me in November. It happened just a little bit early, but that is what they will do," Mr. Obama said. "They will try to focus on all these issues that don't have anything to do with how you are paying your bills at the end of the month. There's no doubt that I will have to respond sharply and crisply, then pivot to talk about what exactly are we going to do for the economy and what are we going to do about the war in Iraq."

I'll repeat this one more time for those who're having trouble following the facts - Hillary did NOT choose the questions for that debate.  The moderators did and yet here we have BO on the campaign trail implying that Hillary's the one who "attacked" him, and went all republican on his ass.  But that ignores the real point of what he's raised here - this was a taste of what the rethugs will be saying in the general if he's our nominee and he failed miserably in answering those questions!

Sadly, he's turning his failures into something that's the fault of his opponent in all this.

The moderators chose and asked the questions.

He failed miserably in answering them.

Hillary put in her two cents worth when it came to her turn - this was a debate after all, where BOTH get the chance to answer.  And don't you dare tell me he would have said "I pass guys - I wouldn't want to damage Hillary on the chance that she'll be our nominee" if the shoe were on the other foot.

Yet somehow, this is all Hillary's fault? Then Klein points to something BO said in an effort to pretend he was taking the high road in all this...

Until the nominating fight ends, Mr. Obama said, he is "trying to show some restraint." He added, "I won't have as much restraint with the Republicans."

He's trying to show some restraint? Seriously?  Is he fecking kidding me?  He's sent out Harry & Louise style flyers on health care, flyers that lie about Hillary's trade record that were later discredited (and he agreed they were wrong!), has just sent out those same flyers again in Pennsylvania, and of course there were those flyers in Nevada urging republicans to become Democrats for a day to keep Hillary from being elected... we won't even go into the negative radio ads he's run, or that TV ad where he claims to have never taken money from big oil (implying that Hillary has).  

Holy mackerel!  How stupid do they think the voters in this country are?

Add to that his attacks on her character over the past 14 months, where he and his henchmen have called her everything under the sun.  Take a look at what the campaign sent out in mid-March about BO's "restraint" when it comes to his attacks on Hillary...

The truth is that for months, the Obama campaign has been attacking Hillary, impugning her character and calling into question her lifetime of public service. And now the Chicago Tribune reports that Senator Obama is preparing a "full assault" on her "over ethics and transparency." To those who contend that Senator Obama is the clear frontrunner, I ask, to what end this "full assault" on Hillary?  

On CNN last Tuesday, Senator Obama said, "Well, look, Wolf, I think if you watch how we have conducted our campaign, we've been very measured in terms of how we talk about Senator Clinton. ... I have been careful to say, that I think that Senator Clinton is a capable person and that should she win the nomination, obviously, I would support her. You know, I'm not sure that we have been getting that same approach from the Clinton campaign."

The facts of this election stand in stark contrast to that statement. Senator Obama and his senior campaign officials have engaged in a systematic effort to question Hillary's integrity, credibility, and character. They have portrayed her as someone who would put her personal gain ahead of the lives of our troops, someone who would say or do anything to win an election, someone who is dishonest, divisive and disingenuous. They have adopted shop-worn anti-Clinton talking points, dusted them off and unleashed a torrent of unfounded character attacks against her.

Among other things, they have described Hillary - and her campaign - as:

"Disingenuous"
"Too polarizing to win"
'Divisive'
"Untruthful"
"Dishonest"
'Calculating'
"Saying and doing whatever it takes to win"
"Attempting to deceive the American people"
"One of the most secretive politicians in America"
"Literally willing to do anything to win"
"Playing politics with war"

To top it off, they have blanketed big states with false radio ads and negative mailers -- ads and mailers that experts have debunked time and time again. They have distributed health care brochures using Republican framing. They have tried to draw a nexus between Hillary's votes and the death of her friend Benazir Bhutto. And one of Senator Obama's top advisers (who has since left the campaign) recently called Hillary "a monster."

This "full assault" on Hillary comes from the very top of the Obama campaign, not surrogates and supporters.

This "full assault" is being directed at someone I personally know to be a thoughtful, brilliant, principled, compassionate person, someone the world knows as a good Democrat, a trailblazer, a lifelong champion for children and families, a respected former first lady, a senator, a presidential candidate.
This "full assault" is targeting a staff of hundreds of hard-working, dedicated Democrats, who I've had the privilege of working with for the past 14 months.

This is a hard-fought campaign - as it should be. Like any candidate for elected office, Hillary has made clear why she thinks she would do a better job than her opponent. She has laid out comprehensive policy proposals, put forth her 35-year record of accomplishment, and spent countless days introducing herself to voters across the country. She has said that she is far better prepared to take on John McCain on national security. She has contended that she is the candidate with the experience to confront the GOP attack machine. She has argued that she is more electable. She has said that Senator Obama's words are not matched by actions. And she has challenged him to live up to core Democratic values and goals such as universal health care.

I recall indignation online at the suggestion that Senator Obama has not made the case that he is ready to be Commander in Chief -- the concern being that this would be terribly detrimental to him in a general election. As I blogged recently, and as many of you know, I spent 2004 in the Kerry-Edwards war room, and I understand full well that national security will be front and center in the general election. It's not a matter of choice. And the reality is that the public views Hillary as better prepared to take on Senator McCain when it comes to national security. Democrats must factor that in as they nominate a candidate to win in November.  

If that suggestion is potentially harmful to Senator Obama in a general election, how exactly do the personal attacks against Hillary (which echo and reinforce rightwing talking points) help her in the event she wins the nomination? I recall no similar outrage at those harsh attacks on her character, many of which were directed at her when she was the clear frontrunner and seen as the likely nominee.    

Both candidates are running a vigorous campaign. Both have had surrogates or supporters who have crossed the line and made offensive statements that they rejected. And these offensive statements are an unfortunate part of a long and close campaign. Those who make a habit of automatically assuming and ascribing to only one candidate the worst motives, ignoring more reasonable and benign explanations, who substitute conjecture for fact and then use those assumed 'facts' as a foundation on which to pile more conjecture about only one candidate's intentions, who express anger at negative campaigning and perceived dirty tricks but focus on only one candidate's words and actions, risk losing credibility. And those who conclude from that one-sided reasoning that Hillary ought to stop seeking victory, should ask themselves if quitting in the middle of a hard-fought - and winnable - contest is a desirable attribute in a future president.

Hillary has rightfully stated that as Democrats we should be proud of our field of candidates. And it is truly inspiring to see the level of enthusiasm among voters this cycle. We should encourage as many people as possible to become part of this process and to forcefully advocate for their candidate of choice. But there is a sharp line between supporting a candidate (and excusing their faults, which all supporters do to some degree) and conducting a "full assault" on an opponent's integrity and character. The Obama campaign's unabashed attacks on Hillary's honesty and trustworthiness should give every Democrat pause.

Yeah... that's some restraint all right.  I'd hate to see what he'd be like if he opened up a can of that Chicago smack-down politics he threatened her with last fall.

Klein closes out his screed with a bit of wishful thinking, saying that he thinks the supers are going to start heading to his guy in response to all of Hillary's "negative" campaigning.

I got news for you Joe... If anyone's gone negative in this race it's your guy Obama.  Wise the hell up and quit trying to throw this election to your candidate before millions of voters have had their say in this.  You want to live in a Democracy (you know... with a big "D"?), then you need to shut the fuck up and let the voters in PA, IN, NC, OR, KY & PR etc have their say.

Otherwise, you're no better than the Republicans.

I'd like to leave you with a bit of food for thought and remind Joe and all the other Hillary-haters out there of just how wrong the pundits have gotten things so far in this race.  They've been trying to declare Hillary's candidacy over for months and yet... here she is standing strong.  Take a look at their record so far...

THE PUNDITS
Hillary Clinton will lose New Hampshire and the race will be over
THE REALITY
Hillary Clinton wins New Hampshire, defying the predictions and the polls

THE PUNDITS
Hillary Clinton will lose the big states on Super Tuesday and the race will be over
THE REALITY
Hillary Clinton wins the big states on Super Tuesday - and wins them by double digits

THE PUNDITS
Hillary Clinton will lose Texas and possibly Ohio on March 4th and the race will be over
THE REALITY
Hillary Clinton wins both Texas and Ohio on March 4th - and she wins Ohio by double digits

THE PUNDITS
Despite Hillary Clinton's big victories on March 4th, "the math" works decisively against her and the race is essentially over
THE REALITY
The math is simple: neither candidate has reached the number of delegates required to secure the nomination and either candidate can win

THE PUNDITS
Barack Obama is substantially ahead in the pledged delegate count; pledged delegates are the only measure of success; therefore the race is essentially over
THE REALITY
The candidates are within fractions of one another on delegates; Barack Obama needs super delegates to win; and a marginal pledged delegate lead does not determine the outcome  

THE PUNDITS
Barack Obama is substantially ahead in the popular vote; Florida and Michigan don't count; therefore the race is essentially over
THE REALITY
The popular vote is virtually tied; half of Barack Obama's narrow vote advantage is from his home state; and his lead excludes Florida and Michigan

THE PUNDITS
Once the remaining states vote, Barack Obama will be substantially ahead in delegates and votes and the race will be over
THE REALITY
The race is a dead heat now and no one knows where things will end up after millions of remaining voters in the upcoming states make their choice

THE PUNDITS
Hillary Clinton's situation is dire; her campaign is struggling; her supporters are disillusioned and desperate  
THE REALITY
Hillary Clinton and her supporters are calm, confident, and focused heading into the key state of PA, where she is running strong

THE PUNDITS
Hillary Clinton's campaign lacks significant grassroots energy; only one candidate has mobilized supporters to take action for the campaign
THE REALITY
Hillary Clinton's supporters across America have written letters, blogged, donated tens of millions of dollars, volunteered millions of hours and made millions of calls

THE PUNDITS
There is a loud and growing chorus of voices asking Hillary Clinton to withdraw from the race
THE REALITY
Precisely the same number of voters (22%) think Barack Obama should drop out of the race as Hillary Clinton

THE PUNDITS
Hillary Clinton is the candidate running a negative, divisive campaign; she is throwing the "kitchen sink" at Barack Obama
THE REALITY
Barack Obama has been throwing the sink, the stove, the plates and the garbage can at Hillary Clinton, attacking her integrity and character every day

THE PUNDITS
For Hillary to win the nomination, super delegates will have to "overturn the will of the people"
THE REALITY
The will of the people is split and both candidates need - and are making their case to - super delegates

THE PUNDITS
Hillary Clinton is threatening to poach pledged delegates from Barack Obama
THE REALITY
Barack Obama is reportedly already trying to poach pledged delegates from Hillary Clinton

THE PUNDITS
Florida and Michigan's voters won't be heard and their delegates won't be seated all because of complicated procedural roadblocks
THE REALITY
Barack Obama is intentionally disenfranchising voters in two critical states for purely political reasons, namely, that he'll lose his small advantage if they count

THE PUNDITS
Every single word or action from Hillary Clinton, her campaign, her surrogates and her supporters is part of a calculated and cynical political strategy
THE REALITY
Hillary Clinton is a loyal Democrat, a lifelong public servant, a tireless and tenacious candidate, and is fighting hard - and fair - to win with the help of millions of dedicated supporters

This woman doesn't back down - no way - no how.


UPDATED

Hey if you're as pissed off as I am over this garbage then please (!!!!) let Klein know he's full of shit guys and send Hillary some love...

HELP HILLARY TO VICTORY IN PA - CONTRIBUTE NOW!

Tags: 2008 elections, Hillary Clinton, Joe Klein, Pennsylvania, president, Recommended (all tags)

Comments

282 Comments

Pennsylvania Here We Come

Yeah!

by alegre 2008-04-18 06:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

she is still losing the nomination

by Andre X 2008-04-18 07:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

We're talking 7th inning here with just a run or two separating them.  This ain't over - not even close.

by alegre 2008-04-18 07:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

More like the 8th inning and 5 runs back.  The numbers she needs from here on out are daunting.

I am not saying people should count her out, but to say it's a one run game is just not accurate.

by mefck 2008-04-18 07:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

How do you figure?  We've got about 20% of the contests yet to be held and when you include FL & MI (and I'm sorry but there's no way you can hold that convention witout seating those delegates) they're separated by about 1% of the vote.

She's still got a shot at this and to try to declare it over not is just absurd.  It makes me wonder what Klein et al are afraid of if this thing's allowed to play out.  Does he know something that will take BO out that we don't?  Is he trying to hide something?

by alegre 2008-04-18 07:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Party establishment is starting to gel around Barack now.

by Andre X 2008-04-18 07:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

heh! the party establishment is sitting on its hands after obama's dismal debate performance. howard dean is huffing and puffing and saying he'll blow their house down, and they're laughing at him.

by campskunk 2008-04-18 07:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Right.

5 superdelegates for Obama in two days, none of them add-ons.

Nunn, Boren and Reich for Obama today.

17 US Senators support Obama, only 13 for Clinton.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

The only category of superdelegates where she isn't trailing is DNC members, meaning the unelected hierarch's of the party.

THEY love her to death.  Voters and members of congress? not so much.

by Mostly 2008-04-18 07:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Obama leads in the "elected" superdelegate count mainly because he has lined their pockets with about three times as much cash from his PAC.

by Benjamin3 2008-04-19 12:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Because raising money for candidates is a bad thing?

by interestedbystander 2008-04-19 03:01AM | 0 recs
Suppose Obama 'wins' the nomination, but loses the

general election. We will have four more years of trickle dpwn economics and quite possibly at least one or two disastrous wars or regional conflicts, and the US will undoubtably be incredibly in debt. We will have millions of homeless and untreated sick people, and the educational system will be in a shambles.

I just don't think he can win. He hides it very well, but his positions
ARE NOT PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATIC POSITIONS on many issues.

And once he gets the nomination, he will swing right and his base will feel BETRAYED.

by architek 2008-04-19 11:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Nunn, Boren & Reich have all been publicly supporting Obama for quite some time  I would say it's more likely that their announcements were coordinated for today to try and take some sting out of the difficult week Obama has been having.

by Trickster 2008-04-18 07:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

I follow the news closely and the ONLY one you could credibly say that about is Reich. The others haven't said a thing about the campaign.

And Reich, who is a very old friend of Bill's (they met on the way to being Rhodes Scholars) just now came out with an official endorsement.  He is so close to them that he was in their kitchen a day or two after Clinton was elected in 1992 and he held back because of these personal connections. So it's pretty meaningful that he still decided to come out for Obama.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Give it up.  Reich hasn't been their freind for a decade - not since he wrote his tell-all book.

The guy's been in the tank for BO for the past year for feck sake. How desparate does BO have to be to put out his name as a brand new endorsement and have Reich go around claiming it's because of her performance at the debate wednesday night????

Seriously - it's beyond lame.

by alegre 2008-04-18 07:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

And Boren and Nunn?  

By the way, how much do you have to make to afford $400 a week for day care?

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Thanks.  I can't resist saying that it sounds like the Bush administration announcing the same capture multiple times.  Remember, so many enemies were "the no.2 man" that it became a joke?

by ghost 2 2008-04-18 08:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Reich didn't endorse before. And neither did Nunn or Boren.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 08:11PM | 0 recs
Boren endorsed in 1993..

when he went on the Rush Limbaugh show to excoriate Pres. Clinton for all manners of sins.

He was no surprise to me at all!!

Sam Nunn...yes, that was a good endorsement, but not Boren!!

by SevenStrings 2008-04-18 08:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

I have known for months and months that Reich is backing Obama.

BTW, let me tell you that Donna Brazile is also in the tank for Obama, although she calls herself 'unaffiliated'.  So when the time comes, we'll be waiting for that diary with baited breath.  

by ghost 2 2008-04-18 08:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

I for one would appreciate your not maligning a strong progressive Democrat like Robert Reich, Alegre.  What's this "in the tank" business, anyway?  Reich has been a staunch supporter of progressive policies, especially regarding labor, since the early '90's.  Just because the man endorses one candidate doesn't mean he's sold his principles or his soul to him.

As to the central aim of your diary: How surprised, delighted, and impressed we all --Clinton and Obama supporters alike -- would have been if Senator Clinton had told Gibson and Stephanopoulos that she would rather discuss the issues!  Obama couldn't do much of this, because as the clear frontrunner he would have looked like he was trying to duck questions.  But we heard candidates like Biden, Kucinich, Dodd, and Richardson request on more than one occasion that serious issues be discussed.  

Imagine the reaction if Senator Clinton had said, "I don't think the voters of Pennsylvania care as much about flag pins as they do about the mortgage crisis. . . ."

Unfortunately, we all have to imagine such a reaction, because Senator Clinton has demonstrated that she'd rather make ads about "bittergate" than substantive issues, and she was thorough complaisant in discussing these tabloid issues during the debate.

by deminva 2008-04-19 04:42AM | 0 recs
well said

but sadly alegre is not into facts, just bullsht

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 05:38AM | 0 recs
is that about the 20th time

Reich endorsed him?

by TeresaInPa 2008-04-18 11:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Yours is not a reality-based observation.

by deminva 2008-04-19 04:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Dream on.  This thing isn't over until this summer - period.  She got supers this week and so did he.  It's part of the process.

Seriously - what's the hurry man?  Are you afraid your guy is going to get clobbered in the upcoming states?

by alegre 2008-04-18 07:38PM | 0 recs
Wrong, Alegre

We're talking about the fourth quarter of a football game.
There's 1 minute to go in the 4th quarter.
The score is Obama 35, Hillary 24.
Hillary scores a touchdown and point after with 20 seconds to go. Then Obama gets the ball, the score is now Obama 35, Hillary 30.

20 seconds to go, Hillary still may have a chance. Except Hillary just scored the last touchdown.

So now team Obama has 20 seconds left to down the ball and run out the clock.

Final score: Obama 35, Hillary 30.

So does Hillary get the cheerleaders to give Hillary the win anyway?

I don't think so.

by toyomama 2008-04-18 09:52PM | 0 recs
Whoops
I should have said, Hillary 31.
OK, I'll concede that point.
by toyomama 2008-04-18 09:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

I am not trying to say it's over.

Of course MI and FL will be seated, but after the nomination is decided.  And the delegate separation is closer to 6%.

I mean, just looks at the numbers.  Even massive wins in PA, KY and WV won't yield enough delegates to get it close.

Then, after June 3, it's up to the SDs.  Will these few hundred people overturn the "will" of the tens of millions who voted over the previous 6 months?

by mefck 2008-04-18 07:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

After the nomination is decided?  Umm yeah... keep telling yourself that.  This all comes down to the credentials committee and last I checked she's got a slight edge there.

The votes in MI and FL will be couted and they WILL come into play in deciding our nominee.  To do otherwise would totally negate the entire process AND the result.

by alegre 2008-04-18 07:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

How do you propose MI is counted?

by mefck 2008-04-18 07:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Simple. You just count MI and FL. If that fucks Obama in the process, oh well. What matters are the voters and their votes, not some candidate trying to game the system.

BTW, Hillary was all for a revote and Obama was not. Now why it that, considering that while FL may be a sure thing for Hillary, MI could be a big role of the dice for her? Sounds to me like Obama isn't so sure MI can be had either, which only makes his chances more iffy come the GE.

by SoCalHillMan 2008-04-18 10:36PM | 0 recs
MI

I, like Clinton and millions of others, wanted a fair revote.  Obama stopped that so now we'll just have to count the votes as is.

If he's going to disenfranchise voters, he should pay the price.

by bellarose 2008-04-19 05:20AM | 0 recs
stop lying

Obama did not block the re-vote

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 05:42AM | 0 recs
Re: stop lying

Yes, he did.  

You all can keep claiming he didn't but the people of MI know the truth.

by bellarose 2008-04-19 06:44AM | 0 recs
cut the shit

you pulled that straight out of your ass

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 07:09AM | 0 recs
Re: stop lying

I dare you to watch this

<object width="425" height="355"></object>

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 07:11AM | 0 recs
alegre is afraid to comment

on this video.

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 10:38AM | 0 recs
Re: MI

"I, like Clinton and millions of others, wanted a fair revote. "

No she didn't. No you didn't.

You wanted a revote where only the people that had voted in the first "vote" would be allowed to vote again. So obviously Hillary voters would once again have a massive lead, since they were the only ones that back then could actually vote for their candidate.

This makes a mockery of the whole idea that you didn't want to disenfranchise people. That's exactly what you did want.

The lies are tiresome.

by Aris Katsaris 2008-04-19 05:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

She can't have a slight edge in the credentials committee without having an edge in the committee-at-large, which she doesn't.

by Mostly 2008-04-18 07:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

It is stupid and foolhardy to have MI and FL have a role in deciding the nomination...

Do you have any idea what will happen the next time?  Well, FL and MI didn't get penalized...  my word, we will be having primaries beginning at Halloween...

I realize this sicks in peoples craw for some reason, but he time to have projected outrage over this decision is long past.  Could have made a difference over the summer... no one paid attention.. well, we did... it was our local news.

Seat them, but they should not affect the outcome.

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-18 08:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

There's also the slightly inconvenient fact that a contest where no campaigning is allowed and in one case where there's only one name on the ballot wouldn't be considered a legitimate election in any country in the world.

It certainly wouldn't pass international standards.

by Mostly 2008-04-18 08:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Then he shouldn't have taken his name off the ballot, should he....

He made  a rookie political mistake  Michigan voters shouldn't have to pay for.

by TxKat 2008-04-18 09:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Oh please....they were asked to take their names off the ballot because the votes would not count - hillary kept hers on in MI so that those going to vote would see it and press the lever for her.  it does NOT matter if all the candidates broke the rules and campaigned in the states and it doesn't matter who is at fault for the rules.  The votes do not count, period.  You can't run a race again unless the conditions are equal, and they never will be.  the delegates can be seated, but votes don't count unless you give both candidates equal amount - hillary said no to that.

by mariannie 2008-04-18 10:08PM | 0 recs
they were not asked to

take their names off the ballot.  That is an Obama campaign lie....just one of many

by TeresaInPa 2008-04-18 11:47PM | 0 recs
yes they were - stop lying

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 05:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Some of us actually want to win the next election, JenKinFLA.

Your views don't reflect the feelings of any of the Floridians I know.

by bellarose 2008-04-19 05:24AM | 0 recs
no, real Democrats will not stand

for that kind of cheating

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 05:40AM | 0 recs
Hillary says that Michigan will not count

Clinton:  "I personally did not think it made any difference whether my name was on the ballot. You know, It's clear this election they are having is not going to count for anything."

here is the video of Hillary saying that:

<object width="425" height="355"></object>

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 05:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

The Florida and Michigan delegations will be seated, just not to your liking (well, Florida probably will).

Read Roberts Rules of Order, and weep.  People have this idea that the delegations are all-or-nothing affairs, and they aren't.  You could seat a Michigan delegation made up entirely of Obama's pre-selected delegates if you wanted to.

by Mostly 2008-04-18 07:13PM | 0 recs
Good luck...

shoulder brush?

by architek 2008-04-18 07:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Good luck...

Thanks!  I don't feel like I need it but you never know.

by Mostly 2008-04-18 07:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Actually, baseball is the wrong sports metaphor, because you can overcome any deficit in a single inning.  Senator Clinton needs to limit Obama to less than 40% of the vote in the remaining primaries to win, and it's hard to think of a sports metaphor that captures her situation.  

by deminva 2008-04-19 04:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

stop with the false talking points

everyone knows better

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 05:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

According to you, without counting millions of more voters, that is.  Congratulations on determining the victor before the fight is over.  How very Democrtic of you.

Cut it short.  Predict the winner ahead of time, repeat, rinse, repeat, and perhaps it will stick.

Welcome to Democracy -1.

by Gabriele Droz 2008-04-18 07:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

This race is over but no one has told the Clintonistas yet.

by Andre X 2008-04-18 07:07PM | 0 recs
You seem to be more irritating

than most of the Obama supporters around here. Why is that?

by sricki 2008-04-18 07:10PM | 0 recs
Re: You seem to be more irritating

Because the truth is hurtful

by Andre X 2008-04-18 07:13PM | 0 recs
So you're the only Obama supporter who's

telling the truth? Interesting idea. Or is it possible that you're just inordinately annoying?

by sricki 2008-04-18 07:16PM | 0 recs
Re: So you're the only Obama supporter who's

I'll tell you straight - Barack Obama will win this nomination by early June.

If by the slim chance, Hillary goes all the way to the convention in August and wrestles this nomination away from Barack, that guarantees a President McCain in November.

That's the straight dope.

by Andre X 2008-04-18 07:20PM | 0 recs
Re: So you're the only Obama supporter who's

I didn't ask you who'd win the nomination. I asked you why you went out of your way to be aggravating. Thanks for ignoring the question, though.

by sricki 2008-04-18 07:26PM | 0 recs
Re: So you're the only Obama supporter who's

Pssst... Shh!

Let him keep thinking they've got this locked up.  Meanwhile, we'll be out there knocking on doors, driving folks to the polls and making phone calls ;o)

by alegre 2008-04-18 07:46PM | 0 recs
Re: So you're the only Obama supporter who's

yeah... because that's something the Obama campaign hasn't thought of yet..../snark

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-18 08:23PM | 0 recs
Re: So you're the only Obama supporter who's

yeah - your voter outreach is going great


There's also an undercurrent of envy. Obama supporters were everywhere in Philadelphia, and in March and the first days of April, we were not. Tales came in from friends of friends: Obama's people get to organize their own rallies; they have local offices all over the city. This, of course, is the character of their campaign, and is the opposite of Clinton's 1990s-style campaign setup.

It was frustrating, and soon led to a semi-revolt at a Wednesday night Philly 4 Hillary meeting. A hodgepodge group arrived to talk about voter registration -- the primary registration deadline was five days away -- and meet a paid organizer.

The staffer talked about the importance of signing people up to vote. The volunteers said they'd heard enough of this, and wanted to actually do so.

"The other candidate's people are knocking at my door," said an older South Philadelphia woman who eventually just set up her own voter registration effort outside her local ShopRite. "When do we do that?"

We got our chance several days later. This is when I realized that most Hillary supporters I've actually met in this city have two main motivating factors: They're either supposed to support Hillary, or they're horrified of the alternative.

http://www.citypaper.net/articles/2008/0 4/17/i-was-a-clinton-volunteer

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 06:07AM | 0 recs
Re: So you're the only Obama supporter who's

That's the straight dope?

Okay, hang in there with the dope.  Us "straight" folks still have some sense.  Don't count your chickens before they hatch because of dopeyness.

by Gabriele Droz 2008-04-18 08:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Doesn't matter how many times you repeat it - there's still a lot of voting yet to be done.

OR have you guys got dirt on Gov. Dean to where he's going to call off those primaries and just hand everything over to BO now?

by alegre 2008-04-18 07:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Please lay out your scenario on the margins in the states and the likely delegate pick-ups.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Sorry,

it's really not possible to predict the lay-out before the rest of the people have voted.

by Gabriele Droz 2008-04-18 07:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

What?

He is asking what is Clinton's path to the nomination?  What states do you think she will win and by what margins and how will that give her enough delegates to win?

I am sure you have something in mind since you think she has a decent chance to win.

by mefck 2008-04-18 07:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

I do,

but since I know you won't agree,and I'm too busy otherwise, I won't waste my precious time for you.  Do you own research, and just take my comment for what it is - my opinion.  I'm past explaining it to folks like you who have no intention on accepting anything I post anyway.  Waste of time.  Bye.

by Gabriele Droz 2008-04-18 07:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

In other words, you know there is no reasonable scenario.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 08:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

That's one big copout.  If that's the case, why do you even post here?  Just to hear your echo?

by mefck 2008-04-18 08:19PM | 0 recs
I've asked for this so many times

You'll get nothing but crickets. None of the Clinton supporters will go on record with the sort of scenario it would take for her to capture the nomination, because it would look too much like a coup d'état. In light of her favorability numbers, silence is the best option for them.

by bookish 2008-04-18 08:26PM | 0 recs
Re: I've asked for this so many times

Hillary Clinton wins by 15-30 points in PA, IN, KY, WV, PR.  Comes within 10 points in NC, OR, SD, MT.  FL and MI are seated as they voted, which will happen.

We go to the convention. Hillary leads the popular vote and is down about 12 measly delegates in a system so askew that TX and NV awarded more delegates to the person with less votes, IA and NH have a ridiculously disproportionate say in who our nominee is, and utilizes caucuses (November won't be a caucus).

By this point, the skeletons have come out of Obama's closet, and he is clearly unelectable in the GE.  A dozen Superdelegates decide to serve their designated purpose in the party, preventing yet another Democratic suicide, and we do all of this "uniting around our nominee" talk the Obamabots love to tell Hillary supporters to do.

There.  Satisfied?

by hornplayer 2008-04-18 09:12PM | 0 recs
Re: I've asked for this so many times

if the rest of the "skeletons" are anything like the ones already found, I don't think it's going to sway the SDs much. After all, Obama's been lessening the gap in SDs since Wright, Ayers, Rezko, etc.

Even if FL and MI are seated as voted, I doubt the SDs are going to buy into the idea that the vote totals are representative of a fair race--especially in MI. Obama wasn't on the ballot.

So, the "lead" in the popular vote really won't be much of a lead at all.

As for the 15-30 point victories in PA, IN, KY, WV, and PR. I might by KY, WV, and PR, but judging from recent polls, I doubt that PA will be more then 15--if that, and IN will be closer.

Considering all of the so-called scandals that have rocked the Obama campaign, he is still doing well in the polls, is still in the pledged and popular vote lead, is still the frontrunner.

Basically, I'm saying that the idea that there will be some massive shift towards sen. clinton is wishful thinking.

by shef 2008-04-18 09:31PM | 0 recs
Re: I've asked for this so many times

Obama took himself off the ballot and there was a large campaign for his supporters to vote "uncommitted."  I doubt this dampened turnout any more than the demands of a caucus do.  I'm really sick of arguing about MI and FL, though.  I'll leave that to be decided by others.

Say what you want.  I presented a scenario as you requested.  If your best way to punch holes in it is to quibble about its probability, then you've already allowed for the possibility of it to happen.  Hillary Clinton has been in the national spotlight for over 15 years; Barack Obama gave a good speech in 2004, has been in Federal government for less than 4 years, and has been a national figure since January.  I'd say there's a lot more room for nasty surprises than you, or most people in the Obama camp, would like to allow for.

by hornplayer 2008-04-18 09:39PM | 0 recs
Re: I've asked for this so many times

"Obama took himself off the ballot"

Alongside Edwards, Biden, Richardson and Dodd.

It's not as if Obama alone did that, is it now? The candidates number 3,4,5 and 6 likewise did.

by Aris Katsaris 2008-04-19 05:56AM | 0 recs
Re: I've asked for this so many times

I didn't imply that he was the only one to do so, nor do I see your point as relevant.  The fact is that Barack Obama and only Barack Obama is responsible for his not getting any votes in MI.

by hornplayer 2008-04-19 08:43AM | 0 recs
Re: I've asked for this so many times

"nor do I see your point as relevant."

I didn't expect you would see it as relevant if the majority of contestants have a certain view on the legitimacy of a particular contest.

"The fact is that Barack Obama and only Barack Obama is responsible for his not getting any votes in MI."

Since the only Michigan primary that occurred is one that Clinton herself said wouldn't count and had pledged not to participate in, she didn't get any legitimate votes there either.

by Aris Katsaris 2008-04-19 09:24AM | 0 recs
Re: I've asked for this so many times

In the unlikely even that any of this happens, you are still not considering the fact that 55 delgates from MI are not counted in that tally, you can bet your bottom dollar that if (an this is a really big if) MI is seated as is, the 55 uncommited will backlash and vote Obama.  The far more likely scenario is that they will be penalized 50% of their delegates which will not be enough for Clinton to close the gap.

Secondly Clinton will NOT win PA by more than 15, and that is the ONLY place with enough delegates to make the difference where she can win by 15.

She is not going to win in IN at all.  KY and WV do not have enough delegates, and are a ways away.  When the contest moves there, campaigning will erase any of these 20-30 point predictions as they have been erased in EVERY other contest that Clinton should have won in a landslide.  

By the time PR rolls around it may not even matter.

NC will erase PA.  OR, SD, MT will cancel out at least three of the "wins" Clinton could get outside IN (which she won't win).

The popular vote margin will remain essentially where it is.

The delegate gap will also remain pretty much intact.

So the answer to this scenario is that Obama comes out and decides he cannot win.  Don't hold your breath for that one.  Or that Obama is caught in a real scandal (dead girl, live boy type scandal) which is also very unlikely.

However, since you Clinton supporters are so convinced that she can still win this thing, great.  Compete, yell, scream, try to win it for her.  Who knows, I may still win the powerball jackpot, so Clinton could win the nom by that standard.

But lets have some sanity afterwards and make the commitment that when Obama wins this nomination you will all start acting like good democrats and support your nominee.

by Why Not 2008-04-18 11:04PM | 0 recs
Re: I've asked for this so many times

Let me shorten your post for you: "Nuh-uh, it won't happen that way!"  But no matter how much you don't like it, the scenario I painted is a possibility, even if everyone in the Obama camp thinks it's a longshot.  That's okay.  Everyone in the Obama camp thought Hillary was DOA in Iowa, and look where we are now.

by hornplayer 2008-04-19 08:17AM | 0 recs
Re: I've asked for this so many times

We are to the point of the campaign where Obama leads the delegate count by 6% with 87% of the delegates already chosen.

This is why it is so very unlikely that she will win.

You paint this as a possibility, I do not dispute that it is posible for this to happen.  But it is so highly improbable that the possiblity that it does happen, is neglegable.

I will not demand that you lose faith before the end of the voting, even if there is only a miniscule possibilty of Clinton winning, because we are all entitled to a fair and complete process.

What I do demand is that you, who doubt what is likely, make certain that in the event that your candidate loses your support will be behind the candidate of the party you claim to be a part of.

This is to say.  When Clinton loses, support Obama.

Most Obama supporters have already moved towards this conclusion some time ago if Clinton were to win.  But many Clinton supporters (to the tune of 30%) seem to think that it is ok to destroy the party and make an easy path for McCain to the white House.  I find this line of though unconcionable as it would result in the worst possible outcome for the people of the Democratic party, and the people of this nation.

So what say you, are you a Democrat or not?

by Why Not 2008-04-19 12:52PM | 0 recs
Re: I've asked for this so many times
Go ahead and hold on to the illusion.  
I GUESS that is a way IT could happen.  
by stryan 2008-04-19 04:02AM | 0 recs
Kudos

You're the first to take the bet. And as incredibly unlikely as your scenario is - and by incredibly unlikely I do mean virtually impossible - you've at least put it out there.

The fact that your scenario includes the provisions that MI are seated as is and that Obama is going to have some damning skeletons evinced is relying on some pretty wishful thinking. Based on the negotiations we've seen thus far, the best MI can hope for is a 50/50 split of 50% of their delegates, and if that happens, FL will only have 50% of their delegates seated, as well, so that pretty much screws up your math. I'll also agree with shef that unless Obama is caught with a live girl or dead boy, nothing is going to hurt him. He's proven on so many occasions that he can pivot those issues to his favor that I can't see how he could be damaged by anything.

Of course, that's only so much speculation, but it's about as reliable as what you've offered.

Again, thanks for playing. I respect you for at least making a valiant attempt, which I haven't gotten from others.

by bookish 2008-04-19 05:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Kudos

Likewise, I appreciate your tempered, level-headed response.

The truth is that we don't know how this thing is going to turn out.  We simply do not.  And even if Clinton isn't currently favored to win the Democratic nomination, many of her supporters believe that we, as well as Hillary, need to do everything we can to make that happen.  If there's a chance--which there clearly is in the scenario I just gave--then we aren't going away.  From my perspective, I see a "PA slingshot" effect coming, where despite Obama's outspending Hillary 3 to 1 in the state, he still loses by about ~15 points, give or take 3 or 4.  This raises huge doubts about his candidacy, coupled with all of the dirt that was piled on him in the debate.  Next we have a primary with an 11+ point win in IN (where Obama has been campaigning and his numbers have only been going down, BTW), a stronger-than-expected showing in NC, and then we're really off to the races for the rest of the summer.

We can argue about MI and FL all day, but it's going to come down to the credentials committee--and I believe that it is a total game changer if HRC is close enough to Obama that, with MI and FL counted, she would be within less than 50 delegates of Obama.  If squelching the voices of MI and FL voters gives us our nominee, that nominee will be considered illegitimate by huge parts of the party.  If HRC is leading in the popular vote, it's going to be awfully hard for those Obama supporters to go backtrack on their "will of the people" talk.

Moreover, I sure hope that Obama's campaign staff thinks he's "invincible" as well.  Hopefully they'll start getting complacent.

I know that for many Obama supporters, they look back on the primaries and especially since Obama's winning streak, have been asking why this isn't over yet.  But the truth is that this process is simply not yet played out, and HRC and her supporters deserve the respect of being allowed every opportunity that they have earned.

by hornplayer 2008-04-19 08:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

No Alegre...we don't have the 'dirt' on Dean.  That's something only the Hillary campaign collects and throws at fellow Democrats

by mariannie 2008-04-18 10:11PM | 0 recs
don't hold your breath

I'd say she's still very much in this contest. he's being very unpleasant these days, and two close friend who'd been stalwart for him switched after that debate. He blew it, made excuses, didn't just take in on the chin and move on. He seemed very weak, and then to be spending the next day complaining, not very presidential.  Isn't that a great pic of Hillary?  It'll be so great to have a competent president.  I'm so sick of bush, and I LOVE her iraq exit plan, and of course universal pre-school. why does he liked private mercenaries so much? and why does he want to keep Bush's no-bid contracts that hog up whatever Iraqi resources they have that one might use for diplomacy purposes or to prove we don't want to profit from this mistaken war?  Why does he think he'll need 60 to 80K of soldiers for five more years? Why, why, why?   I mean, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong?????

by anna shane 2008-04-18 07:07PM | 0 recs
Obama wants to INCREASE military spending-

not a good thing to say to our addicted military industrial complex, regardless of what your plans are.. its like giving away the farm..

sound hypocritical?

by architek 2008-04-18 07:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama wants to INCREASE military spending-

And she wants to create an umbrella of protection throughout the entire Middle East... you really think she can withdraw troops from Iraq at the same time?

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-18 08:25PM | 0 recs
Re: don't hold your breath

He was very weak.  Not at all Presidential.  

by bellarose 2008-04-19 05:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come
She may not have set the tone of the debate questions but she sure dragged them on and expanded-Hillary brought up Farakahn, hamas, she put in her own two cents on william ayers (you were a member of a board with him)...on and on.  
She does this because its her only chance to gain the lean - period.  Anyone knows when one is even or a bit behind, the only way to gain traction is to make your opponent look bad, unless your opponent does it to himself/herself.
Hillary knows what she is doing and saying every step of the way....she is on a mission, always has been.
She is probably not going to win, however.
by mariannie 2008-04-18 09:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Obama stepped into it on the Wright question.  After his initial answer, Hillary was asked if she thought all 8,000 members should have left the church.  She simply replied that was asked a personal question about what "she" would do, and she answered it.  The next question to Obama was on a different subject, but instead he stated his desire to return to the Wright issue.  After he did that, Hillary clobbered him, bringing up Farrakahn and mentioning the Hamas  bulletin (previously unreported by MSM.  Jay Cost at RealClear Politics provides a good analysis:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horsera ceblog/2008/04/obama_takes_the_bait_1.ht ml  

by Benjamin3 2008-04-19 01:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Pennsylvania Here We Come

Great article!  The superdelegates should be concerned why Obama "still" has so much trouble answering some of these questions and putting those issues behind him.  Whether anybody agrees with how ABC conducted the debate should not even be the issue.  After all, it is Senator Obama who desires to be our President.  He should have been prepared for questions on Wright and Snobgate, since these issues came up since the last debate.  Even his answer to the seemingly trivial "flag pin" question was a problem since it directly contradicted what he stated about the pin back in October 2007.

by Benjamin3 2008-04-19 01:08AM | 0 recs
OK. As long as you're asking, let's get

a few things straight.

Hillary did not design the questions, as far as I know. The evidence points to Sean Hannity having a bigger role, but in large part her husband's old communications director, a guy who owes his career to the Clintons, George Stephanopoulis did. However, Clinton certainly had no problem piling on the Ayers and Wright questions. Note, in contrast, that Obama did not get involved in the Bosnia question. Leaving Clinton to admit she lied.

And oh yes, the Bosnia question, you left that one out. One news item of the night is that Hillary pretty much finally admitted she lied about Bosnia. On the other Hillary point of the evening, the fact that Sen. Obama is in her eyes prepared to be President, you're right. That's news.

In piling on Hillary was also dishonest by omission, pointing out that Obama and Ayers were on a board together, but leaving out the tidbit that it was a charity board, of which he and Ayers were two of 10 members.

No, Hillary didn't design the questions, as far as I know, but she certainly didn't mind them either.

More politics-as-usual. Thank goodness it isn't going to fly this year.

by Travis Stark 2008-04-19 04:58AM | 0 recs
Great Diary!!

Thoughtful and throughly researched.  But then, your diaries always are.  

by bellarose 2008-04-19 05:11AM | 0 recs
troll rated for lying

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 05:44AM | 0 recs
Re: D

Honestly, she is the only candidate in history who has been given this many chances to come back.  If Obama had lost 11 in a row in Feb. they would have carted him out to the primary graveyard to rest next to Hart, Tsongas, and Dean.  

Obviously the Democratic Party holds the Clinton in high regard (as they most definitely should) and this is the main reason she keeps getting opportunities to keep going.  But another reason is the unwavering support from people like you, so I salute you fellow Democrat who happens to be on the other team atm.

Just try to keep it classy after Clinton wins PA.

by Xris 2008-04-18 07:04PM | 0 recs
Re: D

"Just try to keep it classy after Clinton wins PA."

Agreed. Because she will win PA, leaving 9 more contests to go.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:07PM | 0 recs
Re: D

No doubt in my mind that she wins PA.  I also have no doubt that Obama will win NC.  But I have no clue on Indiana.  

What happens after those three just depends on the public perception of the race.  Regardless of the actual perception, half of us are going to be pissed.

by Xris 2008-04-18 07:10PM | 0 recs
Umm... Given This Many Chances?

Are you kidding me?  Nobody GAVE her those chances - she earned every one of them by winning over enough voters to keep this thing going.

And BO failed - repeatedly - to close the deal.

You do understand how an election works - don't you?  I mean the whole one wo/man one vote notion?

by alegre 2008-04-18 07:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Umm... Given This Many Chances?

You do know how mature interaction works?  I tried to be nice and respectful, but I guess you are not interested in that.

Find a time in election history where someone lost 11 in a row and did not drop out.  

Take off your partisan blinders for two seconds and realize I didn't take a crap in your diary, but I actually complemented you and the Clintons.  

Geez

by Xris 2008-04-18 07:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Umm... Given This Many Chances?

Yes I know how mature interaction works.  Let me know when you guys are interested in trying that ok?

You call claiming she was given all of those chances mature interaction.  It's one of the most insulting things I've seen on these boards in ages.

by alegre 2008-04-18 07:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Umm... Given This Many Chances?

I agree with he premiss of the comment though.  Had another nominee lost as many races in a row, there would have been heavy handed pressure on that candidate to bow out for the good of the party.

Were there calls for Clinton to bow out...? Yes.  And everyone got their dander up about it.  But there was no real pressure for her to bow out applied either.

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-18 08:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Umm... Given This Many Chances?

that was the most insulting thing you've seen recently?!

Can I start hanging out with you more :)

by shef 2008-04-18 09:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Umm... Given This Many Chances?

Sen. Clinton should had won this going away a long time ago.  She had a former President as a spouse, the party establishment behind her (with a huge SD lead before the first vote was ever counted-how un-democratic is that?), the apparatus and fundraising abilities, yet she is fighting for her life.

How come she wasn't able to win this in january or february?

by mefck 2008-04-18 07:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Umm... Given This Many Chances?

People keep pointing out that Obama is outspending her.  True, but she has the support of virtually every machine politician in Pennsylvania, as well as the state democratic party (and btw, how unethical is that?).  Would you care to put a dollar figure on that?

by Mostly 2008-04-18 07:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Umm... Given This Many Chances?

Oh please.  Have you taken a look at the way the media's been ganging up on here over the past 14 months?  She's taken hit after hit by those jerks and still came back fighting.

Meanwhile BO takes about 20 minutes of tough questions and suddenly his followers are protesting outside ABC and calling Hillary a REPUBLICAN.

by alegre 2008-04-18 07:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Umm... Given This Many Chances?

They were also all but announcing her as the nominee.... as late as Iowa....

That is how much the media hated Clinton... they bought the inevitability hype along with everyone else..

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-18 08:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Umm... Given This Many Chances?
Yes, she was given the hard ones and dumped on for the first ten months of the campaign...as ALL frontrunners.  now its Obama's turn.
But she COMPLAINED about the UNFAIR media for 20 years.....so for her to attack him for complaining now is incredible.  She has made a career of playing the victim and whining.
by mariannie 2008-04-18 10:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Umm... Given This Many Chances?

Hillary was destined to win the nomination from, as she has said one million times, 'from day one.'  She had the money, the democratic backing, the name recognition and 'experience.'  That she did NOT win the majority of the contests is what is quite astounding!!  Obama had the audacity to actually give her a run for her money...she earned her votes and he earned his - he just has more so far.

by mariannie 2008-04-18 09:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Umm... Given This Many Chances?

This is the most stupid and illogical thing you have ever said (and there are many) You cant have it both ways (though you like too) You say this thing needs to play out to the end and that every vote should count, I agree. Then you say "well he cant close the deal" Closing the deal sounds like this thing should be over now or even earlier thus not counting every vote.

Does not make sense.

by telfish 2008-04-19 06:09AM | 0 recs
Re: D

Honestly, he is the only candidate in history who has been given this many chances to pull ahead of her after declaring her dead.  His inability to pull ahead with a clear definite lead, while spending 3 to 4 times as much money as she, leads me to believe that this candidate is struggling very hard to overcome her base support that comes from all walks of life, not just AA's and youngsters.

If he's really so strong, why does she keep popping up over and over after apparently being "at the end of her ropes" since February?

Her support holds strong, it's even closing the gap right now - even though she's being out-spent 3 or 4 to 1.  Who is the "money candidate" here?  Who is being supported by the DLC and the DNC, obvviously biased against her, not to speak of the media.

How does she stand up against all of this amidst everything put out against her?  Because millions of people - many of who do not have the kind of money to put out vs. Obama's elites.

Because they BELIEVE in her, like I do.  And I've been around for a long time, watching the shenanigans of the Republicans for the last 20 or more years.

I won't be had by the NEW Democratic agenda, which has nothing to do with the well-being of our fellow citizens nor the values our fore-fathers "set in stone" (they're now only "set-in-sponge" values).  I'll stick with Hillary until the very end and beyond.  

Obviously the Democratic Party holds the Clinton in high regard (as they most definitely should) and this is the main reason she keeps getting opportunities to keep going.  But another reason is the unwavering support from people like you, so I salute you fellow Democrat who happens to be on the other team atm.

by Gabriele Droz 2008-04-18 07:17PM | 0 recs
Re: D

that was awesome, you managed to insult Obama voters while also painting Clinton as a martyr.  

by Xris 2008-04-18 07:22PM | 0 recs
Re: D

That was the most error ridden tripe I've ever read.  Sorry but it was.

by Mostly 2008-04-18 07:25PM | 0 recs
Re: D

I thought you didn't have time to make arguments for Hillary??

by hootie4170 2008-04-18 08:05PM | 0 recs
Re: D

Well your time is precious as is mine so I will not waste it telling you how many inaccuracies there are in your post.

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-18 08:31PM | 0 recs
Re: D

Oh cut the 'bias against her' garbage Gabriele-enough already!  Hillary has been playing the victim for 20 years...its always 'us against them.'
You know what...who cares what others have thrown at her over the years.  She certainly had a say in why that was done.  When will the Clintons ever take responsibility for their words and actions.

With all she had going for herself in this campaign - she bungled it.  Obama should get the kudos for running a superior campaign and raising more money.  It has nothing to do with being the money candidate as you say....of course he will be spending more money in PA!  What is he supposed to be doing with the money, buying another house with Rezko??  He is trying to win-duh!!  And he is not nearly as well known in PA as she is...so he has to get out there to even have a chance.  Of course if she wins by a small margin, Hillary will be complaining that its because he spent more money.  I have never seen any campaign come up with more reasons for failing-always an excuse.

by mariannie 2008-04-18 10:03PM | 0 recs
Re: D

Outspent 3 or 4 to 1?  Last figures I saw were $7m to $2.9m, so that's a bit of an exaggeration.  And would you care to put a price on the dollar value of 20 years in the public eye and an ex President as spouse?  She has huge advantages, and still blew it.

by interestedbystander 2008-04-19 03:10AM | 0 recs
What?

No one has "given" Clinton or her supporters anything in this race.  They've had to do it all themselves and with all imaginable obstacles in their way (hostile press, sneak attacks, sexism, ageism, etc.).  Obama and his people are the ones with the wind at their backs.

She's won the right to be where she is.  Actually, I take that back, she's won the right to FL and MI, too.  

The Democratic Party has nothing to do with it.

by bellarose 2008-04-19 05:29AM | 0 recs
Re: What?

"The Democratic Party has nothing to do with it."

That statement right there is why she's losing.

by shalca 2008-04-19 10:25AM | 0 recs
Re: So you say
The RULES OF THE GAME do not give points for races won. This argument continues to be used to make it LOOK AS IF its important.
What's important is how many delegates at the Democratic National Convention choose a nominee to be their Presidential Candidate.
Senator Clinton (Dem) and Ron Paul and Edward Kennedy (1980) and .. and... and.. have every right to continue their campaigns as long as they feel they have the support of delegates and supporters.
Your choice to continue using this argument must simply mean that you believe there are still enough uninformed, naive citizens out there to hear it.
by pan230oh 2008-04-19 06:12AM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Well, some PA voters disagree with you.  They -- and many others -- saw that HRC promoted bs Republican talking points.  Perhaps this is why her negatives are so high and why so many don't trust her.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 008/04/18/918482.aspx
PHILADELPHIA -- During an event billed as a discussion on the high costs of higher education yesterday afternoon, Chelsea Clinton faced difficult questions from Drexel University law students and faculty.

One of the questions Clinton fielded came from a university administrator who asked her about her mom's actions during Tuesday night's debate. "Frankly, I was disappointed in her that she didn't have a stronger reaction to some of the inane questions that were asked that last night and that were really insulting to us and the candidates," Leslie Friedman said to Clinton.

After Clinton finished her reply, a male student said he wants to "see her mother slap down the moderator."

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:05PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Why did you downrate me for this? It's certainly not off topic or uncivil.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:11PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Then again,

Why do you downrate people for comments you disagree with?

No excuse for either side, but the whining is really grating.

by Gabriele Droz 2008-04-18 07:20PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

When did I? I almost never downrate anyone. And if I do, it's because someone called someone a name.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:24PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Hmm,
I'm being down-rated as well, and I don't ever recall me calling names?

I guess it works both ways.  It's a shame, indeed.  But it's also unrealistic to expect each side to accept the hits without hitting back.

It seems like this is just politics these days.  Ugly as they are.

I myself don't call people names, including the term of Obamabots and other well-known names.  I stick to Obama supporters, and don't use foul language.

I find, however, that Obama supporters (and I don't mean you in particular) are far more likely to use inflammatory hate language than I observe on my side.

Yes, we do have some that do this, but, proportinally speaking, and keeping the polls in mind, ours is a far more constrained bunch of folks than the Obama supporters.  Given that Hillary supporters still are only 1 to 2 percent away from Obama's popular vote,  the abuse from Obama supporters against Hillary supporters, according to my sense, is 10 to 1 as far as Hillary abusive comments go.

I don't know why Obama folks don't recognize the depth and breath of Hillary's supporters, that comes from their heart.  I truly don't understand why on earth so many Obama supporters just want to throw us under the bus by continually attacking, shaming, and dismissing us as a force that is no force against Obama.

Go ahead my friends, but watch out in the future.

Unless you folks can begin to apologize to all of us, your way to the presidency will be truly hard and rough.

by Gabriele Droz 2008-04-18 07:46PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

I do recognize the commitment of Hillary's supporters. And I don't call anyone names and expect civility in dialogue.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:52PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Then let's take it from there.

I don't think up-rating comments we all wish for we had said ourselves, equals to actual posts we put forth ourselves.  We should be held to account by the posts we actually put out.

Recommending a diary or a comment does not equal posting a diary or comment outright.

We all are frustrated, and often feel that by recommending we can deal with our frustrations without putting more hate forth by ourselves.

Let's start by criticizing real diaries and real comments and skip the part of who recommends what.

That would narrow down our conversations to something less time-consuming and more realistic.

Next - let's disengage with the name-calling crap that happens on both sides, and only respond to worthwhile comments about issues.

Yeah.  Sigh.  But it's possible, dont you think?  If enough of us could get together to raise the standards of discourse?  Om both sides?

by Gabriele Droz 2008-04-18 08:17PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

I just temporarily downrated your post to see if you would complain and you did.  Point made, downrating gone.

by mefck 2008-04-18 08:20PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

I don't understand what you are saying here.

by Gabriele Droz 2008-04-18 08:27PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

You complained about whining and then whined.

by Mostly 2008-04-18 09:01PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

And you're "whining" about my comment?

See where we're going here?

by Gabriele Droz 2008-04-19 04:10PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

I certainly recognize the passion of Hillary supporters.  Go to any pro-Hillary site (taylor marsh, hillaryis44, noquarterusa, etc.  Not a negative word about Hillary is allowed, period.  No questions - no discussion.  And her supporters have posted the most vile hatred against Obama than anything I have ever seen.  So please don't act so high and mighty and pretend its all Obama supporters who do the mud slinging.

by mariannie 2008-04-18 10:23PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

How - how - HOW did she promote anything?  Did you even READ the diary?  I mean you do understand how those debates work right?

The moderators pick and ask the questions - they do follow up.

BO got a chance to answer - which he blew.

Hillary gets a turn and please (!!!) don't insult our intelligence by claiming he would have taken a pass on the chance to chime in on something someone else brought up.

She did NOT push talking points.

by alegre 2008-04-18 07:17PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

George "Step-in-the-mess" was a Clintonista buttboy then and is now

by Andre X 2008-04-18 07:23PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

A different view on HRC at the debate from PA voters:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 008/04/18/918482.aspx
PHILADELPHIA -- During an event billed as a discussion on the high costs of higher education yesterday afternoon, Chelsea Clinton faced difficult questions from Drexel University law students and faculty.

One of the questions Clinton fielded came from a university administrator who asked her about her mom's actions during Tuesday night's debate. "Frankly, I was disappointed in her that she didn't have a stronger reaction to some of the inane questions that were asked that last night and that were really insulting to us and the candidates," Leslie Friedman said to Clinton.

After Clinton finished her reply, a male student said he wants to "see her mother slap down the moderator.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:25PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Hmmmm... who brought up Farrakhan?

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-18 08:33PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

This was my issue last night.  
She had every opportunity to NOT pile on ... sidestep the bullshit questions ... while raising the tenor of the debate ... and she did not.  She is a product of the 90's gotcha wars.  And it is unfortunate ... because she is obviously a very gifted leader, but still has not fulfilled her potential.  Exact reason WHY she voted for Iraq, because she felt - wrongly - that a no-vote would make her look soft in her quest for the presidency.  

He - on the other hand - did NOT pile on when he had the opportunity.  He could have 'turned the knife' on Bosnia, and he did'nt.  It was better example of the type of campaign he will run in the general.  

by stryan 2008-04-19 03:52AM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Obama DID take a pass when the moderators asked him about Hillary's Bosnia lies. They tried to get him to take a shot at her or to call Clinton a liar. He didn't bite.

Clinton, on the other hand, took every opportunity to follow up on Wright, Ayers, etc. I agree with you, that's her right and it's fair game in a debate, but it doesn't earn my respect.

I'm not insulting your intelligence by "claiming" he would have taken a pass. It's not a hypothetical -- he DID take a pass -- so I'm simply presenting the facts.

by jdusek 2008-04-19 10:26AM | 0 recs
i think it's unconscious guilt.

the obama supporters are the ones whose loyalty to party has been somewhat... questionable. i think they're projecting it onto hillary again.

by campskunk 2008-04-18 07:06PM | 0 recs
Re: i think it's unconscious guilt.

Wow, I was not aware that an online poll was reflective of Obama supporters as a whole.  I guess you learn something new every day.

by Xris 2008-04-18 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: i think it's unconscious guilt.

That looks like a really scientific poll.

by mefck 2008-04-18 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: i think it's unconscious guilt.

Who cares what this says? It's not a nationally representative poll, that's for sure.  And where is it from, how long was it posted?  If it's an internet poll, you surely must know that none of those yield reliable data.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:09PM | 0 recs
Recognized as a dkos poll

don't  you see the orange color????  And dkos is almost totally obama now, so that's where you are seeing your own issues with voting for the democrat.

Sure wasn't scientific, I would say. Heavily biased in one direction!

by 4justice 2008-04-18 07:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Recognized as a dkos poll

248 votes from a site that has many, many people visiting -- and we don't know what time of day it was posted - plus internet polls are wholly unscientific.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:26PM | 0 recs
Re: i think it's unconscious guilt.

LIBERAl first, Democrat second!

by Andre X 2008-04-18 07:10PM | 0 recs
Re: i think it's unconscious guilt.

Heh, I love that graph Camp.

LOVE IT!

by alegre 2008-04-18 07:18PM | 0 recs
Re: i think it's unconscious guilt.

Do you also love the one I posted below?

Personally, I think that they are both sadly disgusting.

by Kysen 2008-04-18 08:07PM | 0 recs
Re: i think it's unconscious guilt.

What do you think about the results of this poll?

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/18/2114 40/068

Does it not bring into question the loyalty of Clinton supporters?

Frankly, I think that the Obama and Clinton supporters who are willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces are downright pathetic. Anyone who has lived in the US through the past 7+ years of George W. Bush and is still willing to vote for McCain is deranged.

by Kysen 2008-04-18 08:05PM | 0 recs
Re: i think it's unconscious guilt.

Odd given that polling data from reputable sources indicates Clinton supporters switching to McCain by a 2 to 1 margin as opposed to Obama supporters...

by JenKinFLA 2008-04-18 08:35PM | 0 recs
He Couldn't

He can't take a hard debate, what will he do when the media turns on him and stops giving him the free passes? OMG, he'll melt?  

by anna shane 2008-04-18 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

Did you say the same thing when HRC complained that they asked her too many questions first, or when she asked for a pillow, or when they released a tape of the politics of the pile-on, or when they provoked gender backlash because the boys were too tough on her?

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:10PM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

LOL! You're comparing apples and lunch boxes here.

At least Hillary was focusing her comments on the right folks - the moderators.  In this case BO's trying to transfer the blame on to Hillary for the questions asked by the moderators.

Hell at least she's got a clue as to who was running the show in those debates.  He can't even go after the right folks in all this.

by alegre 2008-04-18 07:22PM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

So "piling on" had nothing to do with what the candidates did?  That doesn't mesh with what the campaign said.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:27PM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

Can you point me to a debate where Obama defended Hillary when she was being piled on by the moderators? Maybe it's happened, but I don't recall it, and I don't think his snidely delivered "She's likeable enough" counts. Hillary used to be piled on when she was the front runner, and now Obama is getting the heat because he is the front runner. I thought that several of the questions asked by Gibson and Steph were inane, but he could have handled them better. But then again, Hillary could have handled the Tuzla question better too. Where Obama made his biggest mistake was in whining about it the next day and blaming Hillary for his own weak responses.

by Inky 2008-04-18 08:33PM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

He didn't whine at all. He specifically said that he expected this sort of thing because it was politics as usual.  

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 08:38PM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

And apparently now, the "new politics" means no more debating because moderators can sometimes be mean. Apparently now, new politics means spend more money than ever on tv and radio ads (no wonder so many in the MSM loves Obama so -- the new politics is great for their bottom line). I have a question for you. Obama keeps saying that those 45 minutes wasted on "gotcha" questions could have been spent addressing the pressing issues of the day, such as what to do about the crazy price of gas at the pump. How exactly is Obama going to lower the price of gas at the pump?

by Inky 2008-04-19 06:55AM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

how many debates did Dub'ya win?

by Andre X 2008-04-18 07:11PM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

hey, you made the comparison, we didn't ;-)

by campskunk 2008-04-18 07:13PM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

He beat Gore three times, and lost to Kerry three times IMO.

by Mostly 2008-04-18 07:17PM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

he has a lot of "tells" when he gets stressed - vocal patterns, and mannerisms of posture. he was clearly wishing he was somewhere else wednesday night.

by campskunk 2008-04-18 07:11PM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

And what the hell was up with his finger along-side his face at that campaign even yesterday?

by alegre 2008-04-18 07:23PM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

Uh, uh, could you, uh, list some, uh, for us?

by Scotch 2008-04-18 07:58PM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

yeah, the media has been just awesome to him this past month.  Its really destroyed his campaign too.

Did you ever consider that our party likes BOTH candidates, but people here on the internet can be whack jobs who believe their particular candidate is the reincarnation of Christ, Kennedy, and Elvis all rolled into one?

by Xris 2008-04-18 07:12PM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

He blew it and he's trying to lay the blame for his failures on someone else - as usual.

by alegre 2008-04-18 07:19PM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

He's completely unprepared to be President. He was barely out of the State Senate when he started running for this.  

He needs much more experience and it showed through loud and clear in that debate.

by bellarose 2008-04-19 05:33AM | 0 recs
We talking about the same Joe Klein?

"Because to hear Joe Klein and other Obama apologists talk...."

Joe Klein is an Obama apologist?

My goodness, Joe was the devil himself 3 months ago at the Great Satanic Orange?

Funny, how times change...

by WashStateBlue 2008-04-18 07:10PM | 0 recs
Re: We talking about the same Joe Klein?

Who isn't the devil at the great Satanic Orange?  Is there anyone alive that doesn't fit the label of evil, there?  Oh, I mean besides Obama.

by Scotch 2008-04-18 07:21PM | 0 recs
super diary

when you're going for the tough job you got to stay on our toes. Someone tell BamBam no one begged him to run and he's cost us quite a pretty penny just so far, and if he doesn't like the heat he should get out of the kitchen.  

by anna shane 2008-04-18 07:16PM | 0 recs
Re: super diary

What did you think of Hillary when she complained about getting the first question too many times?

by Mostly 2008-04-18 07:19PM | 0 recs
Re: First Question
How interesting? Who introduced the word "complaint" ? Did Hillary actually file a complaint?
I believe (because I heard it for myself) that the Senator simply MADE AN OBSERVATION!!!
Someone else called it a complaint.
Good debate practice provides a BALANCE of first responders.
Implicit genderism says "let the lady go first"! - the men think they're being polite. In fact, knowingly or not, it paved the way for Hillary's opponent(s) to be able to build their comments off of her remarks.
by pan230oh 2008-04-19 06:07AM | 0 recs
Re: super diary

He's cost WHO a pretty penny? What does this mean?

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:28PM | 0 recs
Re: super diary

Throwing good money after bad.  He has gone a long ways in losing the general if he ever gets there, already.

by Scotch 2008-04-18 07:40PM | 0 recs
Re: super diary

That's wishful thinking.

by Mostly 2008-04-18 09:05PM | 0 recs
Re: super diary

BamBam?  Try and keep it civil.

by interestedbystander 2008-04-19 03:18AM | 0 recs
He Couldn't

"To claim that she 'went on the attack' is just complete and utter bullshit and it's time someone pointed that out."

Oh really? Let's look at a few, telling passages from the debate.

When Obama was asked about Ayers, did Clinton defend him. No. She said, "Well, I think that is a fair general statement, but I also believe that Senator Obama served on a board with Mr. Ayers for a period of time, the Woods Foundation, which was a paid directorship position. And if I'm not mistaken, that relationship with Mr. Ayers on this board continued after 9/11 and after his reported comments, which were deeply hurtful to people in New York."

When Clinton was asked about Tuzla, Obama did not try to twist the knife. He said, "I think Senator Clinton deserves, you know, the right to make some errors once in a while. I'm -- obviously, I make some as well."

So, basically, I totally disagree with your statement and have quotes to back myself up.

-Ben

by motbob 2008-04-18 07:18PM | 0 recs
Re: He Couldn't

It's true. Clinton's number one weakness, according to the polls, is her honesty. Snipergate goes directly to that weakness, and Obama could have exploited it to his benefit in front of 10.7 million viewers. Instead, he took a pass.

by jdusek 2008-04-19 10:38AM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Living in PA I have an advantage in seeing who is being negative and nasty in campaigning.  There have been negative ads on both sides.  I have to say that Obama has been pretty nasty, and his latest attempt to claim purity can be put to rest is his ad using the background sound of SEIU members booing her during one of her campaign stops.  That is an ugly ad, and doesn't use issues but attempts to belittle with sound and distortion of the video.  SEIU is my union, but I wouldn't be suprised if that was staged for exactly that ad. The oil claims that Obama makes on his ads are just plain lies, and I notice that after Hillary used Factcheck.org to debunk his claims, the ad never showed again.

Something else about the debate that bugs me royally is the big deal made of Hillary saying that Obama could win the general.  Any idiot in the audience who expected her to say the democrats can't win over the republicans in the Fall, has got to be the most naive person alive.  Noone would say that about another Dem when the stakes in the fall are as high as they are.  The reporters and talking heads who are going with this know how to manipulate those of us who are unfortunately not savvy in the ways of politics.  It's sad that people who gobble up spin like that are even allowed to vote.  

by Scotch 2008-04-18 07:18PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Of course, you leave out that the ad has her being booed when she was attacking Obama.

She attacked Obama.  She got booed for it.  Not sure why that's Obama's fault.

by Mostly 2008-04-18 07:20PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Awe.  If that is what an attack on Obama looks like, then he is going to die of a million cuts in the fall.  Poor guy is barely going to make it through the first week of the campaign against McCain.  He's delicate.  We know.

by Scotch 2008-04-18 07:25PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

It's good to see that you have finally realized that Obama will be our nominee. It's sad to see that you want him to lose. Makes you wonder why you're on a democratic cite, if you're only a Hillary democrat.

by venician 2008-04-18 07:34PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

If you want to communicate with someone, you have to start at their level.  So many Obama supporters believe he has won both the primary and the general already, one has to start where they are to get the point accross.  

Do your comments ever have any substance, or are they mainly just na, na, na,  na na posts?

by Scotch 2008-04-18 07:39PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Nice distraction - you wanted to make it look like she was getting booed talking about kittens and baby Jesus when she was booed.

Your post was dishonest.  Own it.

by Mostly 2008-04-18 07:56PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Own what.  Are you seriously saying that that sentance was an attack?  Obama is delicate along with all the supporters. You guys aren't up for a general election if that was an attack in your eyes. Own it.

by Scotch 2008-04-18 08:40PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Yes, I am seriously saying that sentence is an attack.  A clumsy, ineffective one, but an attack all the same.

by Mostly 2008-04-18 09:06PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

That's hysterical coming from you. Oh my god the pot just jumped off the stove and ran around the kitchen screaming at the kettle,you're black, your black. Do you NOT read your own comments?

by venician 2008-04-18 08:43PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth Scotch.

by mariannie 2008-04-18 10:28PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions
Funny ironic fact is that the commercial just played this moment.  Here is what she is saying,
"I know that many of you are disappointed by recent remarks that he made".  That was it.  Period.  She is saying nothing else.  Right after that the voice of the announcer in the ad comes in.  That is an attack of Obama?  The poor guy is in trouble.  Look out ahead!
by Scotch 2008-04-18 07:31PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

I didn't say it was a successful attack, but yeah, it's an attack.  

by Mostly 2008-04-18 07:58PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

She got booed by Obama supporters.  

Big Whoop.

by bellarose 2008-04-19 07:01AM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

"Any idiot in the audience who expected her to say the democrats can't win over the republicans in the Fall, has got to be the most naive person alive."

Seeing as though Mark Penn had been quoted as saying "Obama really can't win" (the GE), I can't really see why anyone would be "naive" to expect her to continue characterize Obama as unelectable. That one admission may prove costly.

I think her unfortunate remarks about MoveOn today represent a rather large nail in her coffin, which is already in the finshing row. It's really a shame that she is taking this route.

by edmandspath 2008-04-18 08:03PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Hillary has said MANY times that she will win against Mccain and Obama will not.  Of course she said (with anger..'yes, yes YES', now stop asking me!')she thought he could win when asked in front of millions.  When Obama was asked, he replied' absolutely, I have said that many times.'

by mariannie 2008-04-18 10:31PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

I live in PA also and I disagree.....

by hootie4170 2008-04-18 08:09PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

And yet 100% of Hillary's campaign ads in PA are negative - how does this mesh with your comment?

by interestedbystander 2008-04-19 03:20AM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

This is so last week. Go down a couple of diaries and read about the HUGE Obama rally in Philly. That's where it's at now.

by Becky G 2008-04-18 07:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Last week

Obama's down from an 11 point lead to only 3 points in a week, according to Gallup. That's where it's at now.

by KnowVox 2008-04-18 07:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Last week

Blah blah.  You all were saying the same thing at the end of March when Gallup daily went from Obama +10 to Obama +3.

Get a new script.

by vann 2008-04-18 07:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Last week

Given his tanking in the polls, it appears Obama needs a new script, instead of insulting gun toting, religious voters in the Midwest.

by KnowVox 2008-04-18 07:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Last week

Newsweek poll - Obama +19.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Last week

They called it a survey.  Probably because the sample was 50% African American.  Surveys are not polls.

by Scotch 2008-04-18 07:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Last week

What are you talking about?  

http://www.newsweek.com/id/132721
Hillary Drops Back
A new Newsweek poll shows Obama pulling away.

Despite her campaign's relentless attacks on Barack Obama's qualifications and electability, Hillary Clinton has lost a lot of ground with Democratic voters nationwide going into Tuesday's critical primary in Pennsylvania, a new NEWSWEEK poll shows.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 08:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Last week

I read it somewhere tonight.  I'll confirm or not when I find the site.  Maybe it was another one, but I swear..........

by Scotch 2008-04-18 08:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Last week

Yeah, get back to us on that.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 08:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Last week

LOL!  Great reply politicsmatters!

by mariannie 2008-04-18 10:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Last week

You're late.

by mefck 2008-04-18 07:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Last week

Jesus Christ - I had no idea Obama's lead over Clinton has been that consistent.

When did she last hold a lead?  January?  Or more recently?

by Mostly 2008-04-18 07:54PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

I don't know what you're hearing, but none of the Obama supporters I've heard blame Hillary for that debate (if that link to Klein was supposed to count, it doesn't). They all blame ABC. So right there at the beginning, I'm not even accepting your premise.

And then you kinda veer off into some ramble about she's being treated unfairly, or something. I don't know, it kind of feels like it's glossing over all the pro-Hillary talking points, as though you need to throw some red meat to the dogs because the rest of the diary doesn't really seem to have a lot going for it.

Naturally, this means it'll probably end up on the recommended list.

by Jaffee 2008-04-18 07:20PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

I agree.  I mean it's not as if Wednesday night showed anyone a side of Hillary Clinton that nobody knew about.

There's also a misconception about why people are angry about the debates - it wasn't that they were unfair, it's that the questions were ridiculous.

If you go to ABC's website where there were, at last count, 15,000 bad reviews, everyone is complaining about "flag pins and tuzla".  It's a non-partisan, united cry of "ABC SUCKS".  Among the Clinton supporters I've witnessed, it's only since she's embraced ABC and that kind of "debate about nothing" format that they've stopped their criticism.

by Mostly 2008-04-18 07:23PM | 0 recs
Never let the bullies win!

Outstanding as always, Alegre!

John

by SluggoJD 2008-04-18 07:20PM | 0 recs
The Facts

For you to claim that the race is a "dead heat"just  shows how much you are in denial. We both know the MATH. That you would still try and spin this as a tie, brings into question your very tenuous grasp of reality. You know how many delegates Obama is leading by, you know how many more states he has won, and, you know how many votes Obama is ahead by. By your denial of these facts you are losing all credibility.

by venician 2008-04-18 07:27PM | 0 recs
Re: The Facts

Well, try adding in the Florida and Michigan voters and you'll see how it is from a reality-based perspective. Moreover, Obama cannot win without superdels anymore than Clinton can win without superdels. I'd say that makes it a virtual dead heat. Neither can win on their own because the other candidate has gotten too many votes/delegates.

Both need superdelegates to win the nomination.

I'd say the only thing that will win this election in November for Democrats is a Clinton/Obama ticket.

I seriously doubt Obama can win in November. And, I'm not alone. He's going to lose. We'll give the next four years to McCain. It's the nightmare scenario for Democrats, frankly.

by Tennessean 2008-04-19 04:56AM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

You really should run some scenarios through a delegate counter sometime:

http://www.slate.com/id/2185278/

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:32PM | 0 recs
She Didn't Ask The Questions

EXACTLY!

by LindaSFNM 2008-04-18 07:38PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions &amp;amp

If she won so handily, why does this diary seem like whining?  Try as you may, the counter-narrative to that farce is outside of your control.

by rfahey22 2008-04-18 07:40PM | 0 recs
alegre whines every day :0)

oh, but it's not whining I guess if she does it

just like it's not lying when Hillary lies

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 09:50AM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

And don't show up here Tuesday night claiming that Obama supporters thought he could win PA -- We don't.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 07:46PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Well we can agree on this. HRC wins PA and by 10%. And we can also agree that BO supporters will go on and on and on about how a 10% lose is in fact a really good thing for BO.  Just like losing OH was really good for BO. And losing KY by 30% and WV by 30% and IN by 10% is in fact really good for BO.

david

by giusd 2008-04-18 08:13PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Put those numbers in a delegate calculator, would you?

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 08:15PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Why would that change how good it would be for the movement candidate to lose big like this???

Just making my point.  If he is such a great candidate and the movement candidate how come he is going to get clocked in these races.  Just saying.

david

by giusd 2008-04-18 08:20PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Did anyone ever say that Clinton was a weak candidate?  I should hope that the candidate who started the race with over 100 pledged delegates locked away, a massive warchest, and a media proclaiming her "inevitable" before a single vote was cast would be able to make things a little interesting.

by rfahey22 2008-04-18 08:24PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

And i would think that the candidate who has the entire left wing crowd and the press could put someone away.  I am really looking foward to Tuesday night.  And then i am really looking foward to KY and WV and IN.

david

by giusd 2008-04-18 08:28PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Yes, I see you're looking forward to selective primaries, that's no shock.  I'm looking forward to June myself.  

by rfahey22 2008-04-18 08:36PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

BTW, have you looked at the two most recent IN polls?

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 08:27PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

HRC is going to win IN by 10%.  I have seen the polls and after BO melt down on Wed and HRC big win in PA we know what is going to happen in IN.

IN has all those working class voters.  You know Reagan dems.  The ones that kos and BO and his crowd think are bitter and "Not real democrats". They will no doubt come on big for HRC.

IN is not BO kind of state.  Not much wine and cheese dems.

david

by giusd 2008-04-18 08:31PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Yeah, it's not an elitist state like Wisconsin, Texas, Virginia, Maryland, South Carolina.....

by Mostly 2008-04-18 09:09PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

If she wins PA by 10% then the race is wide open.

NC will go to Obama by 10%, and the whole thing will hinge on Indiana and Kentucky

by MediaFreeze 2008-04-18 09:09PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions
'What' hinges on IN and KY?  A path for her nomination!!!?!?  You got to be kidding me ...
Nothing hinges on IN and KY except ... IN and KY voting.  We are in the end-game process, team.  It is his nomination.  Even after she beats him in PA by 10 ... in KY and WV by 15/20 ...
by stryan 2008-04-19 03:59AM | 0 recs
Do We Have to Rec every candidate Diary?

So many good diaries die

by CardBoard 2008-04-18 07:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Do We Have to Rec every candidate Diary?

Apparently we have to rec every Alegra diary - for a couple more weeks at least.

by interestedbystander 2008-04-19 03:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Do We Have to Rec every candidate Diary?

No shit -
Please stop rec'ing her diaries, folks.  Reading the same BLAH over and over gets old.    
Bottom line ... we are in the bottom of seventh, forth quarter, <insert other sport compare> ... and she is losing.  One hundred forty delegate lead with less than ten primaries left IS significant.  Hate to break that to the Clintonistas who think she is about to rally ... even with her 10 point win PA.   He wins those delegates back - and then some - in NC ...

Where are the McCain diaries?  We need to start focusing on the general, away from the primary.  We continue to talk as if there is not a foregone conclusion who are nominee is ... and by every metric, Obama is the winner.  

by stryan 2008-04-19 03:44AM | 0 recs
I can't speak for everyone...

...but the questions to Obama definately had that "So when did you stop beating your wife?" quality.

I highly doubt Clinton had any hand in orchestrating it, but that is not the same thing as saying it was not done to her benefit or that she wasn't happy as a pig in shit (if you'll pardon the phrase.  I find so few opportunities to use it in discussion) that it happened.

by DawnG 2008-04-18 08:18PM | 0 recs
we are bitter about your opponent spinning

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/200804 19_Obama_pushes_across_Pa__ends_the_day _in_Phila.html

During the Erie forum, one of Obama's questioners told him not to worry about the validity of his controversial comments about the attitudes of small-town Pennsylvanians, which came to light a week ago.

Said the questioner: "You can go ahead and tell people that we here in Erie are bitter about what's happened the last eight years."

Later, at Lycoming College in Williamsport, he received a similar message, this time from a teacher.

"I am a Christian, my husband is a Christian, and my husband owns guns," the woman told him. "We are not bitter about your statement. However, we are bitter about how your opponent is spinning your statement."

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 08:19PM | 0 recs
also

Also that same article has coverage of the Philadelphia rally which had an OFFICIAL ESTIMATE of 35,000 in attendance.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 08:24PM | 0 recs
Re: we are bitter about your opponent spinning

What else are Obama supporters at an Obama rally going to tell him.  lol.

by Scotch 2008-04-18 08:34PM | 0 recs
Re: we are bitter about your opponent spinning

Beside the fact that it wasn't about the bitter part, it was about the guns and clinging to their religion, etc. part.  Were the questioners carrying guns?  

by Scotch 2008-04-18 08:36PM | 0 recs
Re: we are bitter about your opponent spinning

Is it your expectation that the Secret Service lets people into campaign events with guns?

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 08:40PM | 0 recs
Re: we are bitter about your opponent spinning

Well, we all know if the event is in Pennsylvania they almost have to.

by Scotch 2008-04-18 08:47PM | 0 recs
&quot;Hillary was comfortable in her element&quot;

Per Obama, the debate was just gotcha, Washington politics - you know that stuff that he rises above with hope and inspiration.  None of that petty stuff for him because HE KNOWS how to lead the country forward and leave pettiness behind.

Obama:  "That's her right to kind of twist the knife in a little bit."  None of that gotcha, DC games pettiness for Obama!  

by Southern Mouth 2008-04-18 08:28PM | 0 recs
He answered them and she went negative

Instead of taking the high road, she went for the jugular to heap more salt.  

Chalk up a victory* for Team Hillary.  

by optimusprime 2008-04-18 08:39PM | 0 recs
Re: He answered them and she went negative

Way to crank up those negatives!

http://www.newsweek.com/id/132721
One of the more devastating results for Clinton was that a majority of all registered voters now see her as dishonest and untrustworthy. According to the poll, just four in 10 (41 percent) registered voters view the New York senator as honest and trustworthy, while 51 percent think the opposite. This compares with solid majorities of voters who see Obama and McCain as honest and trustworthy (both polled 61 percent).

by politicsmatters 2008-04-18 08:42PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Why bother, Alegre?

You can't tell Obama supporters anything when they know everything already.

by johnnygunn 2008-04-18 08:54PM | 0 recs
Two questions:

1. When you became a Hillary Clinton supporter, was this the sort of campaigning you wanted to be doing?  Did you envision writing regular defenses of a campaign reduced to launching daily tirades against another Democratic leader simply to maintain the air of plausibility around the idea that there's still some path to her nomination that wouldn't result in the ruin of the Democratic coalition that's formed the core of the party for the past 40 years?

2. Is this really the style of campaign you think ought to be waged by Democrats against other Democrats?  Do you really want to see a regular series of scurrilous and trivial claptrap thrown at Hillary each and every day?  Do you really want debate moderators to spend 45 minutes on Norman Hsu, Vince Foster, pardons by Bill, $109 million, the Million Mom March, "screw 'em", NAFTAgate, defending lobbyists, attacking MoveOn after praising them, snipers, the FL-MI reversal, Columbia Free Trade Agreement/Mark Penn, Blumenthal's DUI, McCain's threshold, or any of the other insignificant and utterly superficial horserace stories that have no bearing on real issues?  Or is it only okay for this sort of behavior to happen when it's against the guy you want to lose?

When Obama supporters say that the way Hillary's campaign is operating is bad for the party, they don't mean it's because we're drawing out the primary season too long, but rather it's because the sort of tactics she's promoting and legitimizing are cheapening the discourse and creating opportunities for the media to serve as a surrogate for John McCain, which is exactly what happened on ABC.

I look forward to the substantive responses sure to follow.

by Jay R 2008-04-18 08:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Two questions:

You neglected to mention:

Charlie Trie
Frank Giustra
Denise and Mark Rich
176 pardons (of which 145 of these donated big time to Clinton library)
Ron Burkle-saudi business/donations
800,000 from columbia gov't.
kazahkstan oil deal
upcoming Clinton vs Paul trial in Los Angeles

by mariannie 2008-04-18 10:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Two questions:

I did leave out Kazakhstan, but I included Pardongate.

by Jay R 2008-04-18 11:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Two questions:

Well said, Jay.

by fogiv 2008-04-18 11:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Two questions:

alegre does not respond to facts, or if she does it is only with more egregious lies

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 05:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Two questions:
As someone who HAS followed the campaign since the beginning, I felt that the ABC News team did everyone a favor by taking the blanket off of the "elephant in the middle of the living room". I have been amazed at the capabilities of the Obama spin-meisters (led by their candidate) to spin this event into an attack on him and to convince themselves that Senator Clinton was a part of it.
The facts are the facts -- Obama said what he did in San Francisco; he sat for 20 years in the pews of a liberation theologian who preached anger and bitterness as a way to build his people's egos; he has knowingly hobnobbed and benefited from his association with characters of less than impeccable motives. HE HAS ALSO FABRICATED STORIES OF HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS, CAPABILITES, and BACKGROUND for his political purposes. If it appeared like "piling on" that's too bad. At least he and his supporters finally got a taste of the hits, disappointments, and frustrations that Senator Clinton and her camp have been taking for many months now.
I am saddened and disheartened (yet again) at the gullibility and naivete of a voting populace that cannot seem to look through the language of fabrication that is part of any advertising or political campaign. Pull off the history, pull off the gender, pull of the ethnicity and look at these two individuals' capabilities, experience and accomplishments. The Democrats have a choice - a leader that will use anger and bitterness to lift people up and attempt to bring about change for change's sake or a leader that calls us to be better than we think we can be, to roll up our sleeves, and find ways to put our different interests to work for our collective benefit. If you readers and the Democratic Party cannot tell which candidate is which, then we will get what we deserve in the elections to follow.
by pan230oh 2008-04-19 06:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Two questions:

Are you implying that I haven't been following the campaign since the beginning?  Or that only one of the two candidates has fabricated information about their record?

Are you seriously of a mind that everyone supporting Obama is suffering from "gullibility and naivete" and that there aren't legitimate political, biographical or policy-based reasons to support him over Senator Clinton?

by Jay R 2008-04-19 12:07PM | 0 recs
The thing here is...

...that the Obama team's arguments against this kind of substantive discussion, are cat calls and jeering snide comments. It all must feel good, and it certainly is in line with the tactics of Obama, but it is so sophomoric and transparent.

by MediaFreeze 2008-04-18 09:06PM | 0 recs
The sad part is...

...I think you've actually convinced yourself that this is the case.  Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

Like I said above, if Obama wanted to play by these rules, you'd immediately recognize the difference.  Some people in this party thankfully still seem to think that eviscerations should be saved for the Republicans.

If Obama's campaign ran a "kitchen sink" strategy against someone from a family with more baggage than a Samsonite outlet, you'd see the distinction.

Substantive discussions should include, umm, SUBSTANCE.  Charlie and George forgot that, and it's absolutely astounding how quickly Hillary and her online dragoons fell in line behind this vapidity disguised as debate.  I'll freely admit that Hillary won the 'debate,' but that's only a reflection of the fact that ABC spotted her about 45 minutes of totally irrelevant crap.

by Jay R 2008-04-18 11:11PM | 0 recs
Yes she did and yes he could.

by dystopianfuturetoday 2008-04-18 09:10PM | 0 recs
What a waste of time...

I read the first 3 sentences and scrolled all the way down to the bottom of your entry.  What a waste.  Are you in 3rd grade?  Grow up!  Let's beat McCain this Fall.  We have two of the most well qualified candidates we've had in years and it never had to get negative.  He said, she said... it's all a complete distraction.  Well it's FUBAR now.  So, who's told the most lies?  Clinton.  Who voted for war?  Clinton.  Who takes the most money from the defense industry?  Clinton.  Who loses big leads? Clinton.  Hillary acts like a child and has lost all sense of reality.  

by froggyman 2008-04-18 10:33PM | 0 recs
Re: What a waste of time...

Who voted for Cheney Energy bill to keep the oil companies rich?  Obama
Who voted for funding of the war?  Obama
Who lies about taking Lobbyist money?  Obama

Hillary is the stronger, smarter candidate.

It is the Obama followers who are losing a grip on reality.

by stefystef 2008-04-19 06:12AM | 0 recs
Huff 'n' puff

As Hillary wins, BO supporters can try this:

photobucket

If that doesn't work, try this:

nyit

by Nobama 2008-04-18 10:52PM | 0 recs
what's in that hope bong

I hear it's lemon lime.

by TeresaInPa 2008-04-18 11:50PM | 0 recs
40,000 for Obama in Philly last night!

Are all those people full of shit, Alegre? All 40,000?

What was that Robert Reich said when he endorsed Obama?

Reich says it was the negativity in Clinton's campaign that are forcing him to abandon his "friend of 40 years."

Said Reich:

"I saw the ads" -- the negative man-on-street commercials that the Clinton campaign put up in Pennsylvania in the wake of Obama's bitter/cling comments a week ago -- "and I was appalled, frankly. I thought it represented the nadir of mean-spirited, negative politics. And also of the politics of distraction, of gotcha politics. It's the worst of all worlds. We have three terrible traditions that we've developed in American campaigns. One is outright meanness and negativity. The second is taking out of context something your opponent said, maybe inartfully, and blowing it up into something your opponent doesn't possibly believe and doesn't possibly represent. And third is a kind of tradition of distraction, of getting off the big subject with sideshows that have nothing to do with what matters. And these three aspects of the old politics I've seen growing in Hillary's campaign. And I've come to the point, after seeing those ads, where I can't in good conscience not say out loud what I believe about who should be president. Those ads are nothing but Republicanism. They're lending legitimacy to a Republican message that's wrong to begin with, and they harken back to the past 20 years of demagoguery on guns and religion. It's old politics at its worst -- and old Republican politics, not even old Democratic politics. It's just so deeply cynical."

Let's keep in mind - Reich is the man who served in the Clinton Administration - and the man who introduced Bill and Hillary to each other!

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 05:24AM | 0 recs
Re: 40,000 for Obama in Philly last night!

I guess Obama's negative, false commercials about Hillary and NAFTA is okay with Reich?

All those false friends.  The Clintons don't need them.  When she wins this (and she will), it is time to clean house of all them.  When you are down, that's when you see the real friends.

Hillary '08!  Real Experience, Real Solutions, Real Change!

by stefystef 2008-04-19 06:01AM | 0 recs
Re: 40,000 for Obama in Philly last night!

more lies from Hillary supporters.

You have no evidence of any negative campaigning by Obama, because there is none.

Don't you get sick of yourself?

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 07:13AM | 0 recs
Re: 40,000 for Obama in Philly last night!
I am sad that we have run out of significant things to talk about. Senator Obama cannot win on the issues because he can't take a stand. He hides his inability/unwillingness to make a decision behind the "Kumbaya" of collective decision-making. He is not ready to be President.
The only thing that he and his campaign can do is rile up the masses with words of anger (I'm thinking of some historical events of about 75-80 years ago in a land across the sea that might have a parallel here). All he wants is to win for winning's sake. We just finished eight years of living with the last guy who did that.
The Democratic Party is fractured. Those that do not want the Clintons in office have led this man to believe that he is much more than he is.
We will be far far worse off than we could ever imagine if this thinking is followed to its political conclusion.
by pan230oh 2008-04-19 06:48AM | 0 recs
he has already won

and Hillary has lost.

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 07:14AM | 0 recs
Ya think?
Those that think Clinton will have a double digit win in PA on Tuesday?
http://www.philly.com/
by nogo war 2008-04-19 05:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Ya think?

Obama pumped alot of money in Ohio, TX and RI.  He lost Ohio and RI by double digits and needs the strange system of Texas caucuses to claim a "win" in TX (which he didn't win the popular vote).

So yes, Virginia, I believe that Hillary can win by double digits.

by stefystef 2008-04-19 05:54AM | 0 recs
Great diary!

RIGHT ON!!!  Great analysis.
Joe Klein is a pompous twit, ever since he so-called 'exposed" the Bill back in the day.  

All these pundits made their careers on the backs of the Clintons.  Every time they try to tear Hillary down, they fail.  That's because Hillary is the RIGHT candidate for our country RIGHT NOW!

On Wednesday, Joe will be eating those words.

by stefystef 2008-04-19 05:52AM | 0 recs
It was HILLARY who wanted to disenfranchise

all voters in contests that would be held after February 5!

Hillary's own words on a 12/17/08 Fox and Friends interview prove this was her campaign strategy:

MR. DOOCY: Would you be "the comeback senator"? Would you be "the comeback gal"? Have you thought about that yet?

SEN. CLINTON: I'm going to leave that to you. You all have a great way with a turn of phrase. But what I'm going to do is to just keep working hard every day, knocking on doors, making phone calls, talking to people.

I feel very good about where we were. This has always been a challenge. I'm going to start on January 3rd with the caucuses in Iowa and go all the way until February 5th, because at the end of the campaign what you need are enough delegates to actually get you the nomination. And I believe that I will get the nomination and that I will be the next president.

Hillary banked on excluding the Michigan and Florida delegates from the start.

Hillary bet everything on February 5.

Hillary lost that bet.

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 05:56AM | 0 recs
Re: It was HILLARY who wanted to disenfranchise

Oh, that's wishful thinking.
That quote was in December 2007?
Long before all the primaries and caucuses in 2008.  She changed her strategy when she saw the needs to change (sign of a smart leader).

Of course she was confident.  She's running for President, she's supposed to be.  Obama never ran for President thinking he couldn't win.  Obama is way too arrogant and confident in himself to think otherwise.  Obama entered this race TO WIN!!!

The point of this diary is to show that no matter how many people try to convince HIllary and her supporters and this country that she's done, she keeps pushing forward, keeps putting her message out of there of real change, real solution, real experience!

Obama followers are getting scared now because Hillary is stronger than ever.  

Hillary '08!  The Real Choice for Real Change.

by stefystef 2008-04-19 06:08AM | 0 recs
Re: It was HILLARY who wanted to disenfranchise

can you read?

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 07:16AM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

USA today reminds me of Nazi Germany in 1936.

by Rajesh 2008-04-19 05:54AM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Hillary - you're either with her, or with the terrorists, right?

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 06:00AM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

No, that's just MyDD.

by darryl darryl darryl 2008-04-19 06:03AM | 0 recs
What questions didn't he answer?

The debate was bad for Obama because he was on the defensive the whole time -- but he played pretty good defense.  What questions didn't/"couldn't" he answer to the satisfaction of a typical voter?

by darryl darryl darryl 2008-04-19 06:02AM | 0 recs
Re: What questions didn't he answer?

Obama's performance at the debate would have gotten him a C in debate class.

He doesn't work well on defense.  That is a problem.

by stefystef 2008-04-19 06:09AM | 0 recs
I'd repeat my initial question

What questions didn't he answer?

One reason why the debate doesn't seem to have had much impact on the polls is because he didn't really leave any questions unanswered.  Stylistically, he kind of sucked, but substantively, there actually weren't any gotcha/YouTube moments.  The only story that had any legs coming out of the debate was the performance of ABC.  If Obama had actually fucked up an answer, we'd be hearing all about it.  But he didn't, at least not by the standards of a reasonable voter.

by darryl darryl darryl 2008-04-19 07:33AM | 0 recs
Re: She did add to the negativity, though...

Vince Foster is dead.
Farrakhan is not.

Vince didn't have hate rhetoric against America and many of her people.  Farrakhan has and still does.  

Like it or not, we are judged by our association.

by stefystef 2008-04-19 06:14AM | 0 recs
I Disagree

Because to hear Joe Klein and other Obama apologists talk, Hillary's suddenly the devil (republican) in Democrats clothing.

Apologists? I'm an Obama supporter and there is nothing to apologize for. I also don't think Hillary Clinton is a Republican, but I do see her spending half of her campaign talking about Barack Obama when she should be talking about the country, John McCain and her own merits.

Perhaps I'm missing something but can you provide me ONE video with Obama even mentioning Hillary Clinton when he's not A: complimenting her, B: replying to HER attack, or C: criticizing POLICY issues?

Hillary didn't set the tone of that debate by determining the questions - the moderators did.  To claim that she "went on the attack" is just complete and utter bullshit

Was it not Hillary Clinton that tried to link Obama to Luis Farakhan and Hammas? As far as the questions go Hillary Clinton was not the one asking them, but she sure did bask in them. It was so bad the moderators actually got booed. And a crowd that wasn't allowed to cheer - cheered when Obama called for more substance.

And he put his money where is mouth is. When they asked Clinton about her lying about sniper fire Obama didn't even touch it.

by USArmyParatrooper 2008-04-19 06:51AM | 0 recs
Hillary More Electable - here are the numbers

From the Vote Master today!

"With Obama as the nominee, the electoral college at the moment is Obama 260 to McCain 254 with 24 ties. With Hillary Clinton as the nominee, it is Clinton 289 to McCain 239 with 10 ties. Thus for the moment, her argument that she is more electable is true. Her strength is that she wins Florida and Ohio although he offsets this by winning Michigan and Iowa, which she loses. Also, he puts Colorado and North Carolina in play. If Obama were to win Colorado and McCain were to win North Carolina, they would each have 269 electoral votes and the new House would choose the President. For the maps and details..."

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

by Molee 2008-04-19 07:02AM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

Great photo!!!

by moevaughn 2008-04-19 08:50AM | 0 recs
Go Away

Can't wait until this election is over and I don't see any more of your contrived and asinine diaries on the recc'd list.

Then again I am probably wrong. Obama will win the nomination and you will start writing pro-McCain diaries probably...or at least three daily diaries about how Obama will be the worst President ever and you'd prefer a third term from Bush.

by JDF 2008-04-19 09:13AM | 0 recs
Here are some &quot;fair&quot; questions

Can she answer them?

What was your role in Travel-Gate?

Who killed Vince Foster?

Did you really 'dis women who choose to stay home and "bake cookies"?

Why do you put with a man that keeps cheating on you? Don't you have an self-respect?

Did your campaign in fact put your husband on a "woman diet" to curb his pervasive womanizing?

Why does your daughter work for a hedge fund?

What is your relationship with Norman Hsu?

Is it a conflict of interest for you and hour husband to contribute $5,000,000 to your campaign, when he took $800,000 from the Colombian government to advocate FOR the free trade agreement that YOU oppose?

>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>

by OhPlease 2008-04-19 09:29AM | 0 recs
The Debate

It Wasn't the Questions, It Was the Answers!

All of this nonsense on how bad the debate was really begs the obvious question. If BO had managed to answer any of the questions well, they would be singing his praises.  

Both in the first-half on characteristic and the second-half on  policy issues questions, BO didn't give a good answer on most of the questions.  He choked on Iran question, capital taxes, social security.  And yes, he choked on the flag pin, Wright, Ayers, Wood foundation.  So basically, he choked on both parts.

Guess he needs more time, his processing speed is so slow. Kind of like the interminable time he took to cook up that race speech.

When that 3 a.m. phone rings, he'll have to put 'em on hold, hang up or give 'em the finger!

by JoeySky18 2008-04-19 11:56AM | 0 recs
Joe Klein = Clinton Apologist

Did you seriously call Joe Klein an Obama apologist?  Have you EVER READ Primary Colors?  That is the most ridiculous statement I think I've ever heard in my life.

by nklein 2008-04-19 02:01PM | 0 recs
&quot;tough questions,&quot; really?

more like bullshit questions, and Hillary piled on.

and imo Obama answered them fine, although I was listening to it on the radio, so perhaps he did worse on tv.

by End game 2008-04-19 02:33PM | 0 recs
You need another name
For somebody named "Alegre", you sure seem angry and, forgive me, bitter all the time.
Have you ever thought about changing your name to "Enojada"?
Hillary Clinton is not going to win the nomination. Not unless Obama dies or gets caught having sex with a 13 year old or something. Short of that, there's nothing Clinton can do to catch him. Yes, she's likely to win Pennsylvania. She might win Indiana. Even if she does, the only way she can get the nomination--short of the aforesaid ways--is to MAKE him unelectable herself. Now, that is indeed a strategy. It isn't one I like much, and I lost respect for her months ago for using it, but I guess she has every right to try it.
But most people do not like this kind of campaign. Make no mistake: she is not pointing out serious flaws that already make Obama unelectable; she is taking minor issues and using them to tear down Obama herself, in other words, making a guy who is, now, eminently electable, utterly unelectable, and all by her own efforts.
That to me, and to a great many other Democrats shows that she is wedded to her own ambition only, not to any devotion to the good of the country or to most Americans.
And don't think for a minute she doesn't have awful "electability" issues of her own.
Do you, or any of her other supporters, truly believe that the Republicans are not going to beat her over the head with Whitewater, Vince Foster, the Rose Law Firm billing "issue", "travelgate" and a lot of other bullshit? And, yes, for the record, I freely and fully acknowledge that they are all bullshit. But they're going to throw it at her all the same.
by Mumphrey 2008-04-19 05:04PM | 0 recs
Re: She Didn't Ask The Questions

What an excellent post!!!!!!

When you label the Clintons as dishonest, do anything to win , untrustworthy you are using repug talking points. It is amazing to me that after all these years and $70 million dollars of tax payers money spent that so many people still have the idea that the Clintons have done anything illegal-ever.

But I guess I have to ask how many americans still think that Saddam Hussein in the one who attacked us on 9/11. That number was over 70% for a long time (does anyone know what is is now?) and that says it all. If you say something often enough americans will think it is true.

by Bornagaindem 2008-04-20 05:47AM | 0 recs

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