He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I'm sure you've heard about this one by now but I've just gotta chime in here guys.  From ABC News...

Mayhill Fowler is reporting on the Huffington Post that at a fundraiser in San Francisco this week, Obama put the blue collar voters of small town Pennsylvania on the analyst's couch:

"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them," Obama said. "And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

And here's what Hillary had to say in response while she was at a "Solutions for the Urban Economy" town hall in Philadelphia, PA earlier today (press statement)...

Hillary Clinton Reacts to Sen. Obama's Newly Discovered Characterizations of Pennsylvanians

"I saw in the media it's being reported that my opponent said that the people of Pennsylvania who faced hard times are bitter. Well, that's not my experience.

"As I travel around Pennsylvania , I meet people who are resilient, who are optimistic, who are positive, who are rolling up their sleeves. They are working hard everyday for a better future, for themselves and their children.

"Pennsylvanians don't need a president who looks down on them, they need a president who stands up for them, who fights for them, who works hard for your futures, your jobs, your families."

And thanks to YouTube, we have a video of her statement...

Ok so back to that ABC article...

Let's skip ahead to the general election   this is the kind of line that the right Republican opponent could turn into gold. If Obama wins the nomination, will the McCain campaign channel Rumplestiltskin and make this a successful talking point through the fall?

Grover Norquist, the anti-tax activist who leads an influential weekly meeting of conservatives, went as far as to argue that Obama's line would cost Democrats the White House.

"That sentence will lose him the election," Norquist told ABC News. "He just announced to rural America: 'I don't like you.'"

"Now you can vote against that guy not because you don't like him," Norquist added. "You can vote against him because he doesn't like you."

Add this to the long list of things they're going to go after him with in the general if he's our nominee.

Now this isn't the first time he's put his foot in his mouth when it comes to rural or small town America guys.  Maybe it comes from his lack of understanding as to just where folks from small towns are coming from.  Remember when he said he was surprised at how bright and articulate Iowans were?  

But they also, surprisingly enough, even in rural Iowa, recognize the opportunity to send a signal to the world that, you know, we are not as ingrown, as parochial as you may perceive...

Ingrown? What the hell does that mean?  Here's his performance on Nightline...

The reaction wasn't pretty.  From Jeff Dinelli at the Left Coaster...

Well, Golly, Mr. Obama, on behalf of all us Midwesterners out here, you know, those of us who have to drive 'bout an hour er so to get to the Bears game or one of dem mooseums? We sure is lucky to have you out in the sticks with us so's we can grab hold of this opportunity to prove to the world we're not all inbred, cousin-kissin', voodoo doll stickin' hicks who wear our best white sneakers to church on Sunday before headin' to the all-you-can-eat buffet. Why heck, after diggin' yer pickup truck out of six feet of snow we may just invite you in for a plate of goulash and Jello salad, how'd ya like that, Mr. Obama?

He then quoted something BO said in New Hampshire...

"One of the great pleasures of running for president is to go to some tiny town in Iowa and you've got some guy in overalls and a seahat to say what do you think about the situation in Burma, and you're thinking that he's going to ask you about corn, and he asks you about Burma."

I don't know about you, but I get the sense he doesn't have very high expectations of the folks living in small towns in the Midwest or the Rust Belt.  He's acting like those were compliments for cryin' out loud.

Dinelli has a word or two in closing for Obama and I have a feeling a lot of folks in PA are thinking pretty much the same thing right about now...

But you know what? Not all of us Midwesterners are so "nice" and "polite," especially when we're being called inbred overall-wearing dumbfucks.

Screw you and the horse you rode in on, Barack.

So anyway back to that comment of Obama's about the folks in small town PA.  It looks like a lot's happened since I left work this evening.  I had a meeting to go to and when I got home I found that Obama's put out an explanation of sorts, and Hillary's campaign ut out the following press statement in response...

Clinton Campaign Reacts to Sen. Obama's Explanation of His Characterizations of Pennsylvanians

In response to Senator Obama's comments this evening in Indiana about the remarks he made in San Francisco earlier this week, Clinton spokesman Phil Singer said:

"Instead of apologizing for offending small town America , Senator Obama chose to repeat and embrace the comments he made earlier this week.  It's unfortunate that Senator Obama didn't say he was sorry for what he said.  Americans are tired of a President who looks down on them -- they want a President who will stand up for them for a change.  The Americans who live in small towns are optimistic, hardworking and resilient.  They deserve a president who will respect them."

WHAT SEN. OBAMA SAID THIS EVENING IN RESPONSE TO HIS SAN FRANCISCO FUNDRAISER COMMENTS:

I was in San Francisco talking to a group at a fundraiser, and somebody asked how, well, how are you going to get votes in Pennsylvania ? What's going on there? We hear that it's hard for working class people to get behind your campaign. Why is that? I said, well, look, they're frustrated. And for good reason.  Because for the last 25 years, they've seen jobs shipped overseas, they've seen their economies collapse. They've lost their jobs, they've lost their pensions, they've lost their healthcare, and for 25, 30 years, Democrats and Republicans have said we're going to make your community better. We're going to make it right. And nothing ever happens. And of course they're bitter and of course they're frustrated. You would be too and in fact, many of you are. Because the same thing happened here in Indiana , the same thing happened across the border in Decatur , the same thing is happening all across the country. Nobody is looking out for you , nobody is thinking about you.

And so people end up - they don't vote on economic issues because they don't expect anybody is going to help them. And so they end up voting on issues like guns and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage and they take refuge in their faith and their community and their families and the things they can count on. But they don't believe they can count on Washington . So I made this statement - here's what's rich. Senator Clinton says, well, I don't think people are bitter in Pennsylvania . I think Barack's being condescending. John McCain says, oh, how can he say that, how can he say that people are bitter. He obviously is out of touch with people

Out of touch? Out of touch? John McCain, it took him 3 tries to finally figure out that the home foreclosure crisis was a problem and to come up with a plan for it, and he's saying I'm out of touch? Senator - Senator Clinton voted for credit card sponsored bankruptcy bill that made it harder for people to get out of debt after taking money from the financial services companies, and she says I'm out of touch? No, I'm in touch. I know exactly what's going on. I know what's going on in Pennsylvania , I know what's going on in Indiana , I know what's going on in Illinois . People are fed up. They are angry and they are frustrated and they are bitter they want to see a change in Washington . And that's why I am running for President of the United States of America .

Erm... yeah.

Maybe one reason I can relate to Hillary is that she's spent time in towns like my hometown in Michigan (another Rust Belt state).  She's right at home in PA - her dad was born and grew up there and she spent a lot of time in the state as a girl.  Here's what she had to say in an interview on KDKA today...

"I'm lucky because I have a pre-existing relationship with Pennsylvania going back to my father being born and raised in Scranton, and literally I spent so much time in Pennsylvania as a child and young women growing up that I feel very much at home," she says. "It's not a state that I have to look at a map and figure out where Pittsburgh is, or where Beaver County is, or where the suburbs of Philadelphia are."

"It's about who needs a President. There are places in our country that are doing really well," she said. "But there are other places where you really need to get to work to get those jobs growing again, to get universal health care for people, to have a new energy economy so that gas prices don't bankrupt families like there really putting a strain on today, to make college affordable again."

This woman gets it you guys.  She's not about pointing fingers or characterizing us as bitter or clinging to our guns or bibles.  Sure we have worries like everyone else and Hillary knows what keeps us up a night, but she's got a plan to address those everyday problems.  

She's all about the issues and getting the job done guys.  That's what I'm looking for in a leader.

Tags: 2008 elections, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Pennsylvania, president (all tags)

Comments

318 Comments

Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Hillary gets it.  She really does.

by alegre 2008-04-11 07:55PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Youtube embed doesn't seem to work in the diary.  May you check it?

Great diary.  

by ghost 2 2008-04-11 08:00PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Never mind.  I wrote too fast!!

by ghost 2 2008-04-11 08:02PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Patience Grasshoppa - patience!

Hey if you want to help Hillary win over those voters BO just pissed off you know what to do...

D O N A T E  NOW!

Thanks! :o)

by alegre 2008-04-11 08:15PM | 0 recs
Balance...

Being President is all about balance.. Hillary is clearly the strongest on economic issues, and she is not beholden to any one group or too corporate like Obama and McCain are. She is going to help small business, which is the engine of a lot of job growth in this country. Her health plan alone is going to have a sudden and dramatic strongly positve effect on small business.

Can everyone see WHY?

by architek 2008-04-12 03:20AM | 0 recs
People ARE bitter.

I'm not sure why McCain, Hillary and non-stop attack dog Alegre are blind to this fact, but public bitterness is very real.  I should know, I'm one of them.

Hillary and McCain are growing increasingly desperate, and they should be, because they are both going to lose.

No more Clintons, no more Bushes.   The status quo must go.

by dystopianfuturetoday 2008-04-12 08:20AM | 0 recs
Re: People ARE bitter.

i agree with you. people are very bitter, very bitter indeed. and not just in pennsylvania. 80% or more of this country KNOWS we are headed in the wrong direction. that course was set by the clintons and the bushes.

obama is the only person amongst the three who is guaranteed to take of off this suicidial track.

as far as his comments in san fransisco, i wish he would make them a permanent part of his stump speech. what he said is true, and for too damn long we have let politicians lie their asses off to us and all the while we knew. i will give the people of pennsylvania enough credit to know the difference between truth and bullshit. if they can't figure it out, then what can mccain or clinton or obama or anyone do for them?

by hueydixiepearl 2008-04-12 08:37AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

She gets it? People are frustrated and bitter. That's the truth. Obama nailed it in his Indiana remarks.

"When I go around and I talk to people there is frustration and there is anger and there is bitterness.  And what's worse is when people are expressing their anger then politicians try to say what are you angry about?  This just happened - I want to make a point here today.

"I was in San Francisco talking to a group at a fundraiser and somebody asked how're you going to get votes in Pennsylvania? What's going on there?  We hear that's its hard for some working class people to get behind you're campaign. I said, "Well look, they're frustrated and for good reason.  Because for the last 25 years they've seen jobs shipped overseas.  They've seen their economies collapse.  They have lost their jobs.  They have lost their pensions.  They have lost their healthcare.  

"And for 25, 30 years Democrats and Republicans have come before them and said we're going to make your community better.  We're going to make it right and nothing ever happens.  And of course they're bitter.  Of course they're frustrated.  You would be too. In fact many of you are.  Because the same thing has happened here in Indiana. The same thing happened across the border in Decatur.  The same thing has happened all across the country.  Nobody is looking out for you.  Nobody is thinking about you.  And so people end up- they don't vote on economic issues because they don't expect anybody's going to help them. So people end up, you know, voting on issues like guns, and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. And they take refuge in their faith and their community and their families and things they can count on. But they don't believe they can count on Washington. So I made this statement-- so, here's what rich.  Senator Clinton says `No, I don't think that people are bitter in Pennsylvania.  You know, I think Barack's being condescending.'  John McCain says, `Oh, how could he say that?  How could he say people are bitter? You know, he's obviously out of touch with people.'

"Out of touch?  Out of touch?  I mean, John McCain--it took him three tries to finally figure out that the home foreclosure crisis was a problem and to come up with a plan for it, and he's saying I'm out of touch?  Senator Clinton voted for a credit card-sponsored bankruptcy bill that made it harder for people to get out of debt after taking money from the financial services companies, and she says I'm out of touch?  No, I'm in touch.  I know exactly what's going on. I know what's going on in Pennsylvania. I know what's going on in Indiana. I know what's going on in Illinois.  People are fed-up. They're angry and they're frustrated and they're bitter. And they want to see a change in Washington and that's why I'm running for President of the United States of America."

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 08:01PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

And if he had couched his remarks this way, it wouldn't have sounded so bad.  I get what he's saying. But I'm still not sure he understands that there are people with strongly held value systems, and that those belief systems operate independently of economic issues--that's the problem some voters are having with these comments.

by TinaH1963 2008-04-11 08:16PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

His original remarks were not so great. But his response in Indiana - which I have above - were terrific.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 08:18PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I do think people sometimes are without hope.  And I do think the other side uses wedge issues to get people to vote against their economic issues.  But, that's not the only reason people embrace religion or any other "values" issue, and that's what is lost here.  For some people, these values really are independent of economics--and I know that's hard to believe, but I think it's true.  Obama clearly believes it, but I think he's wrong on this small point--his larger point is on target, I think.

by TinaH1963 2008-04-11 08:52PM | 0 recs
Obama doesn't get 'we are all in it together

Obama is all about "tough love"  He feels that working class people deserve less now than they used to - which is the economists view and its based on supply and demand. Thats what his health care plan is all about, giving people less..not making it COST less, making them pay more, but giving less to more people... but they will still have to pay the sometimes huge differences between what these cheap plans will pay and what the services actually cost. To working people, that can ruin their lives. They can't just snap their fingers and come up with $287,000 to pay for the cost of a difficult pregnancy that went over a monthly cap.

by architek 2008-04-12 03:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama doesn't get 'we are all in it together

i want to quote you here:

"...he feels that working class people deserve less now than they used to".

where in god's name do you come up with such garbage?

please give me a link a quote a speech, something where sen obama says he thinks working class people deserve less?

you think you know how senator obama feels?! if you do, you must certainly know how senator clinton feels. so why don't you tell us how she feels about her vote for the iraq war.
 

by hueydixiepearl 2008-04-12 08:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama doesn't get 'we are all in it together

"He feels that working class people deserve less now than they used to..."

If you have some empirical evidence to support this, then you damn well better present it. If not, then you are an idiot, moron, or whatever other term will earn me negative ratings from this den of delusion.  I'm sick of this kind of hyperbole. Either support your case or STFU.

by bookish 2008-04-12 01:49PM | 0 recs
Re: the role of the subconscious

Yes it's true, Sen Obama can sling it with the best of them when he's had a chance to THINK about what he's going to say. What this episode reveals is that when we catch him "unfiltered", he is quite adept at  generalizing classes of people (shall we say "typical white people"). It reveals a tendency to dismiss them as individual human beings and to dehumanize them. It reveals that in his mind voters, and classes of voters are simply a means to an end - getting him elected at all costs.

by pan230oh 2008-04-12 07:24AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

sure, and the Wright issue was terrible and then he made a great speech about race.

Is there a pattern here? Does Obama get ahead by pulling his foot out of his mouth? How many of these can he get away with?

This fall, you can bet the Republicans won't be bombarding us with clips from the Indiana speech. They will harp on the insensitive original, and that's what people will remember.

by NJ Liberal 2008-04-12 06:43PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

We have a chance, at last, to change the dynamics in the Dem Party which has been infested by the DLC (Republican light). If we fail, this country will continue on its present path.
There are so many problems that I cannot list them all. You know them as well as I.

It is time to stand the heck up.
This "elitist" smear against Barack Obama was used against Kerry and Edwards to devastating effect. Now the forces of the right (which includes Hillary Clinton if you haven't noticed) is trotting it out again.

This is where the rubber meets the road.

by barnowl 2008-04-13 01:31AM | 0 recs
Yes - if he had couc hed the

remarks as he and his handlers came up with in the follow-up statement. He was speaking off the cuff - and that was what he was thinking - playing the class card.  This group of people (in San Francisco) gets me type thing.  the irony is that many working class (urban or rural)people get him as well.

surely, after considering his earlier remarks, he came up with this statement - which is as you said what he might have said.  He has to understand he's not teaching in a classroom - he wants votes - all kinds of votes.

But he didn't.

by Xanthe 2008-04-12 02:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Yes - if he had couc hed the
You want a perfect candidate. There is no such creature.  He should have couched his statement in more careful terms and he has said so. Nevertheless, what he said was God's truth.  
Regular folks have been manipulated into voting on wedge issues including guns, God and gays while the looting has continued unabated and our founding principles have been ignored or undercut.
by barnowl 2008-04-13 01:46AM | 0 recs
Is it the truth that people "cling"

to religion, for instance, because they
are frightened or "bitter."  Your truth, perhaps - but many people feel differently.  

I don't even know what a perfect candidate is.  

by Xanthe 2008-04-13 03:42PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Just wondering - where do you live and what kind of work do you do?

Either way, you sound pretty bitter yourself.

I'm on a really tight budget and we don't have much, but I'm not nearly so bitter as you make folks out to be.  Hillary's right in what she said - people aren't as bitter as BO makes us out to be.  If he spent more time talking with us and living the lives we live, he might actually understand that.

by alegre 2008-04-11 08:31PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

It must really be tough for you as it's past midnight and you have the time to cut and paste all night. What about all the Hillary people who rork two jobs and the night shift? How does the multi millionaire candidate relate to those people. When was Hillary ever Poor?????????

by lion king 2008-04-11 09:03PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I guess I'm one of the Hillary people who work 2 jobs while trying to raise a family (and luckily my state has primaries, cause I'll tell you right now - I wouldn't have time to sit around at a caucus for 3 hours) - and I don't begrudge the Clinton's their $$ they made through book deals or speaking engagements.  Heck, if anybody wanted to pay me to speak or write a book about myself, I'd be all over it.  

by AnnC 2008-04-12 04:59AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

She's often partnered with Republicans like Newt Gingrich and Bill Frist. In 2002 she backed a harsh position on welfare reform reauthorization that put her at odds even with conservative Republicans like Orrin Hatch. She persuaded her husband to veto the bankruptcy bill in 1997, voted for a similar version in 2001 and missed the vote in 2005, when Bill was in the hospital. She advocated weakening the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform law, telling Feingold to "live in the real world." Unlike Edwards and Obama, she accepts campaign contributions from lobbyists and corporate PACs. "Ask them why they don't take money from lobbyists," Wolfson retorts. "We're proud of our support." The Nation, Hillary Inc,

Sound like a record of concern for the average American?

Consider the birds they flock with.

(Peter) Paul emerged in 2000 as the largest contributor to Senatorial candidate Hillary Clinton. Paul and his attorneys have at various times offered two explanations for this. First, that he was trying to attract her husband, then-President Bill Clinton, to serve on the board of Stan Lee Media after leaving office. Second, that he hoped to negotiate a pardon for his previous criminal convictions.[29][30] Paul produced and underwrote what he described as the largest fund raising event ever held for a federal candidate [31], in Los Angeles, days before the 2000 Democratic Convention began. The Hollywood Farewell Gala Salute to President William Jefferson Clinton featured prominent entertainers singing for the President, while raising over $1 million for Hillary Clinton's Senate campaign.[32] The event cost $1.9 million to organize according to Paul and $500,000 according to the Federal Election Commission filing, much of it borrowed fraudulently by Paul from Merrill Lynch. Later indictments would state that Merrill Lynch lost about $5 million it had lent to Paul.[30]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_F._Pa ul

Just google these good friends and contributors Ron Burkle, Vinod Gupta to HRC's coffers.  These characters and others like them are obviously outnumbered by more traditional contributors, but the scope of their gifts and the unsavory backgrounds of these friends cast a shadow on the Clintons and impugn their judgment. Conflicts of interest are inevitable, indeed already exist.

As for her 8 million dollar book deal with Simon & Schuster (Viacom), the publishers over paid her by 3 million dollars, meanwhile laying off 75 employees  The Congressional Accountability Project sent the senator-elect a letter asking her to make public the details of the contract and to reject the hefty advance altogether.
http://archive.salon.com/politics/featur e/2000/12/19/clinton/index.html
Hillary parsed Senate rules and got the money, Sketchy ethics at best.
Am probably reiterating already covered subjects but do wish people would research our candidates.

by barnowl 2008-04-13 04:16AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Alegra called someone bitter.

by interestedbystander 2008-04-11 11:38PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

If you aren't angry and bitter at how our elected officials have failed the American lower and middle class over the last 3 decades, then you're doing better financially than a lot of people in PA.

I'm happy a Democratic candidate has come along with the spine to not be pressured into apologizing for telling the truth. I'm far more insulted at how the opposition has tried to spin this into we're somehow thrilled to be cleaning up after a war that's left a stain on our legacy and our budget so large its terrifying.

Americans are willing to work hard but they're tired of the government ripping us off blind, and both of the other potential candidates have a long and thick history tied to the kinds of actions that have gotten us exactly where we are now.

by upstate girl 2008-04-12 04:31AM | 0 recs
missing the point

the offense is not in being called bitter or frustrated -- it's offensive to assume frustration over one's economic circumstances effects ones decision making on other issues or drives people to bigotry or xenophobia.  Statements like Obama's are superficial, one dimensional and insulting.

 

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-04-12 05:08AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

He gets it, exactly.  Exactly.  No platitudes, no more nobility in poverty, no painting smiley faces on pain, but speaking like a real progressive about how damaging this country can be to its workers.  

Reminded me again of why I feel so strongly about his candidacy.  

by mady 2008-04-11 09:28PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Good luck making that elitist argument against a guy who gave up well paid jobs to work in the community, coming from a candidate worth $110m.  I don't think the voters are as stupid as you would like to think they are.

by interestedbystander 2008-04-11 11:42PM | 0 recs
There is absolutely

no question Obama is right about this.

by fladem 2008-04-12 07:24AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

If you spend half as much time hating McCain as you have hating Obama I will be surprised.

by JDF 2008-04-12 07:51AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?
She gets what? How to purposely misunderstand a comment and make political hay from it?
by mikeinsf 2008-04-12 07:54AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?
Quoting Grover Norquist.
Congratulations, Alegre.
You, like your candidate, are now officualy a fucking Republican.
Stay on strike. we don't need you where reasonable people hang out.
Which ain't here.
Your candidate has LOST.
Get OVER it.
by kestrel9000 2008-04-12 10:42AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?
Quoting Grover Norquist.
Congratulations, Alegre.
You, like your candidate, are now officially a fucking Republican.
Stay on strike. we don't need you where reasonable people hang out.
Which ain't here.
Your candidate has LOST.
Get OVER it.
by kestrel9000 2008-04-12 10:43AM | 0 recs
Yawn. Let us know by putting up a diary

when he does something seriously wrong like voting to invade Iraq.

by ReillyDiefenbach 2008-04-12 01:43PM | 0 recs
Alegre, you're the one who doesn't get it!!!!!

For heaven's sake.  He was saying (Nightline) that Iowans may be aware of how they are perceived by the rest of the country, but, that in fact they are anything but.  He was praising how engaged, interested and knowledgable of government and our political system they are.  Clinton people please stop engaging in mischaracterising what BO is saying. You help Republicans each and every time. Please!

by santamonicadem 2008-04-12 02:01PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

You really are desperate for anything and everything possible to try and turn around this mathematical impossibility of Clinton winning the dem. nomination aren't you alegre. Good lord.

If you would turn off the spin part of your brain and actually read what he wrote, NOT what Clinton says he said (these are, after all, the people of the famed bosnia 'misspeakings'), I think you might find a comment that tends to ring true.

That is, if you care about thinking about issues beyond a 30 second soundbite.

Sigh.

by Yalin 2008-04-12 05:41PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

No he doesn't. And, the idiot elite snobs of the party haven't been getting it either. But, they better wake up or we are going to have another 4 years working on a conservative agenda and Democrats will be the ones to have said that's what we want.

We, core dems aren't threatened by being called racists...we're more secure in ourselves than that. It does piss us off though.

How can anyone think Democrats can win a 50 state strategy by counting only 48 states?

by seattlegonz 2008-04-13 09:22AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

People don't have to vote against Obama because they don't like him; he doesn't like them!

by owl06 2008-04-11 07:57PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Now you are going to quote right winger Grover Norquist?

by Toddwell 2008-04-11 08:04PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

It's got zest!

by owl06 2008-04-11 08:07PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Bury your head in the sand if you want, but you'd better get used to hearing that kind of shit because they're going to HAMMER us with it if BO gets the nod.

by alegre 2008-04-11 08:43PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

This argument gets funnier and funnier, because I always see it from "Democrats". Even Clinton sent out Republican talking points in her follow up press release. How long can you go on threatening for Democrats to "get used to it because that's what the Republicans will do!" You've been doing it for them for months already.

by upstate girl 2008-04-12 04:34AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

So we should respond to you the same way we would respond to Republicans?  Good to know...

by you like it 2008-04-12 08:55AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Owl, it seems that 700,000 like Obama more then they like Clinton. How would you explain that????

by lion king 2008-04-11 08:19PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?
If you count the Dems in the cross tabs, you might not feel so, um, Demmy.
by Pacific John 2008-04-11 08:27PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Heh! ;o)

by alegre 2008-04-11 08:44PM | 0 recs
That was MONTHS ago..

LOTS of people who voted for him then DON'T like him now.

They are beginning to see the other Obama.

by architek 2008-04-12 03:30AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

What do the cross tabs matter. The only thing that matters is who they voted for. I guess the new memo is your not really a dem if you voted for Obama. But what of all those repugs, who on the advice of Rush, voted for Hillary?? Should we now discount those votes???

by lion king 2008-04-11 09:07PM | 0 recs
That was a diversionary tactic..

I doubt if many Republicans really voted for Hillary. If so, more power to them.

But, from day 1, from when he first announced his amnesty 'not-demonizing' the  Sept 11 period criminals, Obama's campaign has been based on getting votes and especially, money from Republicans.

Why would he have brought on Jim Cooper
who is a money magnet
..

by architek 2008-04-12 03:34AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

perhaps we should discount those votes along the with "dems for a day" voters - people who Obama courted to be dems for only a day - I guess then they're free to go back to being repbublicans.

by AnnC 2008-04-12 05:03AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Forget it. Bitter-gate is over. After Obama's response the news media are on his side. You should have heard the pundits on CNN this evening. Not one agreed with Hillary or McCain. This is going nowhere (except on MyDD and maybe Fox News).

by Becky G 2008-04-11 08:48PM | 0 recs
Of course..

They LOVE Obama.. they have invested a lot in him. They think "Americans have such short memories".. They have control of the media, the polls...

by architek 2008-04-12 03:36AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

What a crock. Are you really that ignorant or just pretending to be? This diary should be cross-posted on redstate.

by kitebro 2008-04-12 05:42AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

He's got this amen chorus available and I don't think he realizes that it takes more than that to win. He's an incredibly cynical guy and I'm sure he thought that sounded empathetic - mostly it just sounds cynical. It's beyond me why anyone is buying the "hope" schtick anymore.

by Little Otter 2008-04-11 07:57PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Yes, otter it does seem that alot is beyond you. The voters of America have so far chosen Barack over Clinton. Try and prove me wrong on that point. And Obama gave a masterful response, which shows how well he can defend himself. Show me how Hillary has respoonded to to the Bosnia ordeal, or her Columbia hypocrisy? Oh and please link to Hillary's brilliant speech speaking out against sexism. I'd really like to see that one. After all is sexism is such a huge issue in this election surely she would have something to say about it to the entire country.

What not speech???

by lion king 2008-04-11 08:14PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

But she got (maybe) 150 people in Manhattan complaining about her media coverage!

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 08:21PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

But it was huge, huge I tell ya.

by interestedbystander 2008-04-11 11:40PM | 0 recs
Lion King's remarks..

Pseudo-grandiose.. just like Obama..

Lion King, your spin is showing!

Yes, otter it does seem that alot is beyond you. The voters of America have so far chosen Barack over Clinton. Try and prove me wrong on that point. And Obama gave a masterful response, which shows how well he can defend himself. Show me how Hillary has respoonded to to the Bosnia ordeal, or her Columbia hypocrisy? Oh and please link to Hillary's brilliant speech speaking out against sexism. I'd really like to see that one. After all is sexism is such a huge issue in this election surely she would have something to say about it to the entire country.

What not speech???

Sad...

by architek 2008-04-12 03:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Lion King's remarks..

Weird.

by bookish 2008-04-12 05:54AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Well, Obama's speech on race doesn't seem to have lingered in the culture, has it? Now is not the time for such things.

It's funny how you have to make up things that I believe in order to attack me. That's pretty sad.

The fact of the matter is that he's a guy with virtually no accomplishments to his name. A Harvard graduate who is the son of a Harvard graduate and married to a Harvard graduate - he's as privileged as it gets. And yet with all that privilege, what has he done for others? Five years in the Illinois senate (55 days a year, thank you very much) and despite his claims of post-partisan genius, he accomplished NOTHING until the Dems took the state house. Nothing. Zippo. Zilch. How sad. Then Emil Jones gifted him with legislation and suddenly, he has a career.

he may know how to run a thug campaign, but he is one of the most divisive figures we've seen in the Democratic party - twice as many Clinton supporters won't vote for him as vice versa. And Clinton supporters are bedrock Democrats in blue states. LOL

All this hot air around him because, in point of fact, there is no there there. Just a guy who's never done anything that wasn't self-aggrandizing. Just a guy who's never done anything to make other people's lives bettter of his own volition.

by Little Otter 2008-04-11 08:25PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Well, Obama's speech on race doesn't seem to have lingered in the culture, has it?

Heh. Nope, I guess the history books haven't gotten around to that less-than-a-month-old speech. But I'm sure they're already fast at work analyzing how spectacularly Hillary Clinton mismanaged her campaign. I'll buy you a copy of that book, and get President Obama to sign it for me. Sound good?

;)

by ragekage 2008-04-11 08:32PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

if it was going to have an impact, it would have had an impact. It hasn't and it didn't. Nothing changed. It isn't being quoted. It didn't redefine or illuminate anything. hasn't changed the dialogue around the race either. The most you can say is that it may have staunched the hemmoraghing over Wright. But we won't know whether that is the case until the election.

It's gone precisely nowhere. Two weeks from now, most Americans won't even remember it was given.

by Little Otter 2008-04-11 08:37PM | 0 recs
It had an impact

It corrected nearly all damage from the Wright flap, and has 5 million YouTube hits to date.

People remember.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-11 08:56PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Even in the TV and Youtube culture of today, it takes longer for things like this to promulgate. I'd say Clinton's failure in campaign strategy hasn't really sunk in yet, either. But I obviously won't say it never will. I'm sure political historians and future political candidates will be studying that for decades to come.

by ragekage 2008-04-11 09:05PM | 0 recs
People DO get Obama's grandiosity..

They have met people like him before.. and they realize how destructive and divisive they can be.. with their pat judgments and failed trickle down economics arguments.. and their Social Darwinism.

WE have ALL met people like Hillary before, and THEY hold up our whole communities. they know the REAL meaning and value of DEMOCRACY.

Obama obviously holds democracy in contempt. Why else would he try to disenfranchise Michigan and Florida?

by architek 2008-04-12 03:45AM | 0 recs
Re: People DO get Obama's grandiosity..

Indeed, right? That's why Clinton refused to have a Michigan revote include anyone who didn't vote the first time. What a way to enfranchise people. But I'm sure you'll ignore this, as you always do when I ask you hard questions.

by ragekage 2008-04-12 07:34AM | 0 recs
I hadn't heard that..

Do you have a source for the raw, unspinned info?

Actually, I think all states should have primaries and not caucuses, and the rules should be uniform, and I'd like to see the primaries only be open to people who have been in a party for long enough to prevent people from other parties suddenly registering in a party to change the outcome of tight contests like this one. Say, six to nine months...

by architek 2008-04-12 02:07PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Oh I don't know. I think the country will remember that grandma got thown under the bus. I say it now in reference to many things.

"Girl...you threw grandma under the BUS when you voted for that country girl on idol. You should have voted for the aussie guy. Your disgusting!"

by monstergrrl 2008-04-11 09:20PM | 0 recs
Huh?

okay, call me an idiot, but I don't watch much TV. (the more you watch, the less you know)

I don't get THAT.

by architek 2008-04-12 03:47AM | 0 recs
He should have
gone into an enhanced description of his grandmother's history and philosophy. (snark)
It was an off hand question.
When somebody asks, "how are you," what do you say?
by barnowl 2008-04-13 03:59AM | 0 recs
Clinton the hundred million dollar women

" his speech didn't seem to linger in the culture"
Are you not AWAKE. Have you not seen how many specials they've run about race in America???

Oh, and we're still waiting for Hillary's speech regading sexism. When do you think she will take a leadership stance on that issue????

by lion king 2008-04-11 09:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton the hundred million dollar women

I am guessing that Hillary believes the issue of sexism is something better addressed after the Democrats have secured the White House.  I'm guessing that she has her priorities straight and she realizes that it's not something that can be solved during a primary election, and she's aware that it would create unnecessary divisiveness during a time when it's critical that we focus on getting control of our government so that we having a prayer of ever making progress on the complex issues of equality for all types of people.  I'm guessing that she realizes it's much smarter politically to focus on things like the economy, the war, the environment and health and welfare of citizens until we've won this election, at which time, many more things will be possible.

by joanneleon 2008-04-11 10:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton the hundred million dollar women

Um, expect Hillary's speech regarding sexism when:

1)She is desperate to change the conversation from the revelation that she worships with a coven of America-hating witches

or

2)She relies exclusively on charges of sexism to defend against every attack against her, no matter how unrelated to sexism the attack is

So what, now you guys are holding up Barack's purely self-serving speech as something Hillary should emulate, or something that actually makes him more qualified than her to lead?  HIS SPEECH WAS MADE TO SAVE HIS OWN ASS, NOT TO 'FIX' RACE RELATIONS IN THIS COUNTRY!!!  If the speech was not made to save Barack's candidacy from the Wright scandal, what, was it just great timing for him?  Did he plan all along to 'address the racism' in America, and it just happened to fall a few days after the Wright controversy exploded?  Go choke down some more Kool-Aid, Simba, and keep on twisting whatever logic you need to blindly defend the mental image of the perfect politician you have crafted in your head.

by thebrightwhitelight 2008-04-12 06:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton the hundred million dollar women

I don't mind what your saying, but I had to troll rate you for the "go choke down some more Kool-Aid, Simba" comment.  It was an unnecessary personal attack.

by shalca 2008-04-12 10:01AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Obama's true beliefs are gradually surfacing.

by owl06 2008-04-11 07:59PM | 0 recs
no he doesn't

for someone who is so "intelligent", he seems so preoccupied by himself he can't bother to listen to or talk with anyone.  Instead he yells "I know what's going on!!!"  Sounds like "yes we can!"  Yes I guess he does think he can insult people without immunity, and then try to explain away things he should be apologizing for.  

by 4justice 2008-04-11 08:02PM | 0 recs
Re: no he doesn't

Heh. Oh, you Clinton supporters, you're so painfully predictable. Looking desperately for something to be "offended" by. If Clinton said something like this, you'd be fawning over it, and so it's sad to see you folks act this way. But keep it up- the undecided voters and lurkers here will take note, I'm sure, which oughtta benefit Obama.

by ragekage 2008-04-11 08:34PM | 0 recs
Re: no he doesn't

No I think that may be Bill Clinton. By Monday this will be old news because it's based on twisting the truth just like Bosnia.

by Politicalslave 2008-04-12 12:20AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?
You mean he's mortal, and not "the one?" It's a really bad idea to start with an image that is self-corrupted by real life.
by Pacific John 2008-04-11 08:28PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Is this approaching a record for the most diaries about a single topic in the course of one day?  Inspiration seems to be directly proportional to desperation.

by rfahey22 2008-04-11 08:01PM | 0 recs
desperation

should be applying to Obama supporters now.  Your guy keeps digging the hole, and he's not going to climb out.  You watch--from here until June he loses most, if not all, of the primaries, as people become more and more uncomfortable with him.

Desperation?  Nah. Exasperation and Obama's continued denial?  For sure.

by 4justice 2008-04-11 08:05PM | 0 recs
Re: desperation

You might be right. I don't have a crystal ball. But I think that his response has been terrific and hope he makes a series of ads speaking to people's frustration and anger about the state of our nation.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 08:06PM | 0 recs
Re: desperation

Hes not going to lose Oregon, Montana, South Dakota, and North Carolina.  These are all states that Clinton personally said didnt count.  

by Toddwell 2008-04-11 08:10PM | 0 recs
Re: desperation

Uh, ok.  You'll know Obama supporters are desperate around here when they start playing the "you better be nice to us or we'll sit out or vote for McCain" card that supporters of a certain other candidate have been using for months now.

by rfahey22 2008-04-11 08:10PM | 0 recs
Re: desperation

Interesting prediction. I'll hold you to it. If it turns out you're wrong, I'm sure you'll admit publicly you were wrong, though. Right?

;)

by ragekage 2008-04-11 08:35PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Yeah, alegre's late on this one. She's been scooped ten times over. But what the hell, might as well start yet another thread trashing that horrible rich, liberal Obama. You can almost smell the fake ruminated outrage as its chewed from diary to diary to diary.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 08:07PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

You forgot to compliment her on her cut and paste job, oh I mean "writing" skills.

by lion king 2008-04-11 08:27PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Yeah...some of these diaries get awfully close to just re-packaging news material.

by rfahey22 2008-04-11 08:32PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

That's an unnecessary comment, clearly meant to denigrate.  Why go there?

by TinaH1963 2008-04-11 09:35PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Are you really going to say that denigrating Alegra is off limits?  After all, Alegra is the denigrating queen here, isn't she.  By the way, good luck finding a diary from her that is less than 50% cut and paste.

by interestedbystander 2008-04-11 11:47PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

No...I'm not saying that criticizing ideas is inappropriate.  The poster seemed to be criticizing her ability to write--that's what I'm objecting to.

by TinaH1963 2008-04-12 10:23AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Because Alegre has a reputation. And when people consistently put out work that is called into question (not because of its ideological content, but because it is lacking in either logic or reason) in one way or another, there is every reason to call them out.

I find that, after spending only a couple of months on MyDD, I can pretty much count on Alegre's diaries to engage in exaggeration and hyperbole. It isn't that I disagree with her arguments (my job concerns the nature and structure of arguments, so it doesn't matter to me whether I agree with them or not, only that they are well made), it's that her arguments almost always end up discounting her own claims. IN a word, they overreach (and sometimes disprove her own positions).
ONe (I said one) of the hallmarks of a good argument is that it takes into consideration, and clearly articulates, the arguments against it. BY doing this, you strengthen your argument (in short, you make a better case). I have never, ever, once, seen this aspect of basic, logical, reasoning exhibited in a diary by Alegre.

MInd you, I am NOT saying that Alegre is not smart or doesn't have points to make. On the contrary. I am saying that she does herself (her intelligence and her points of view, which clearly have merit --everyone has merit, everyone's thought has merit) a disservice by over simplifying and exaggerating. And by not taking into account the arguments against her own positions.

This diary is no exception.  

Most spin is neither logical, nor reasonable. And I,myself, know that politics is not rational (it's emotional). Despite the fact that I know this, I can't help wanting more from ... all of us. Myself. All of us. So, please, don't misunderstand and think I am trashing someone. I think we are all in this together.

I think Alegre is passionate. That's good. Passion is the beginning of good argumentation. But something, to me, seems to get lost in the translation.

by DrPolitics 2008-04-12 12:11AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Erm... no actually I think you guys hold that record re bosnia.

by alegre 2008-04-11 08:47PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I admit I could be wrong, but the sheer rate of diaries on this issue seems to be higher than both Tuzla and Wright.  Certainly this "scandal" is in the top three of the primary season.  Not that the various diaries actually add much new to the issue.

by rfahey22 2008-04-11 08:54PM | 0 recs
The desperation is greater now

With Obama closing in on Pennsylvania, the more rabid Clinton supporters are lashing out at any little thing that could possibly help them.

They know in their hearts that Clinton needs a huge win in PA, and it doesn't look like she's going to get it.

If they can find just the right wedge issue, then maybe their candidate gets to go on to the next state, even if it means risking poisoning the well against any Democrat this fall.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-11 09:00PM | 0 recs
Bingo

Desperate and pathetic.

Obama's response, if you haven't seen it, is lovely.

by nwgates 2008-04-12 09:27AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?
Shame the Bosnia issue could have died a quiet death, but leave it up to Bill to bring it right back into play. It was the top news story tonight.
Don't you guys get the sense that Bill doesn't really want Hillary to win. I don't think his ego could stand being the first "first man".
by lion king 2008-04-11 09:17PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

another good diary, alegre!

by Enviro 2008-04-11 08:03PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I don't think Hillary gets it that people are frustrated and bitter. The middle class has shrunk, we are in a recession, the war has been a disaster, manufacturing jobs are gone.  And she's peddling happy talk?

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 08:04PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Bitter? What polling evidence do you have that people are bitter? Or is that a truth that comes directly out of Obama's ass?

People don't think this nation is on the right track, and Clinton agrees - just look at the bill's she's proposed in Congress and her platform. It's all about getting unions back and working again, creating high paying green jobs, eliminating tax breaks on employers who send jobs overseas, making college easier to pay for, negotiating our way through the housing crisis, and providing health care for EVERYONE (unlike Obama).

by Little Otter 2008-04-11 08:07PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

So you're agreeing she doesn't get it.

by ragekage 2008-04-11 08:36PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I think we all agree the nation is one the wrong track. I know Clinton has directly acknowledged that time and time again. But bitter? Maybe Obama supporters are but not most of the US.

by Little Otter 2008-04-11 08:39PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Uh huh. Two questions-

1) I didn't realize Obama was referencing everyone in the country... could you link that?

2) What reference or authority do you have to make a claim that everyone isn't bitter, what Obama said nonwithstanding?

by ragekage 2008-04-11 09:02PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Good point.  We can all agree the economy's in rough shape and people are hurting.  No one's disputing that.

What small town folks like take exception to is the way BO's claiming we're clining to our guns and bibles and hate anyone who doesn't look or pary like we do.

We're looking for answers - not finger pointing and excuses.  WE're looking for a leader and Obama's not it.  I'm sure my fellow hicks in PA will tell him that in no uncertain terms come the 22nd.

by alegre 2008-04-11 09:10PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

How do you know what small town folks take exception to?? You've said before you live in D.C. How can you who lives in a HUGE political bubble speak for small town folks????

by lion king 2008-04-11 09:22PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Can you provide links to what these small town people are saying - or are you rather patronisingly speaking for them?

by interestedbystander 2008-04-11 11:50PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

It's Morning in America, Politicsmatters!

by amiches 2008-04-12 06:42AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

It occurs to me that it's the same kind of mistake he made when he talked about how he would bomb Pakistan if he found out they were hiding terrorists who had attacked us and weren't doing anything about it. Everyone knows that's the policy because Bill Clinton sent the cruise missiles into Afghanistan after Bin Laden. But Obama didn't understand that you don't threaten to bomb a country as part of campaign rhetoric. Clinton's right - there are things that you do not say as a candidate.

I don't think he knows that people who want to be president abide by a different set of rules than the rest of us. He doesn't understand that words coming from the mouth of a US president have consequences far beyond anything he's probably ever imagined up until.

First he pimped out his badass self ready to kill Pakistanis on behalf of Americans. Now he's donning his professorial (small p) cap and lecturing the underprivileged of our nation about how sympathetic he is to them being gun-toting, racist Christians and whatnot because they've gotten fucked. Heh.

I wonder what his excuse is for clinging to the church he does? How is Wright an improvement over the ugly factions of Christianity the right embraces?

by Little Otter 2008-04-11 08:04PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

It occurs to me that it's the same kind of mistake he made when he talked about how he would bomb Pakistan if he found out they were hiding terrorists who had attacked us and weren't doing anything about it.

Interesting you mention this. President Bush railed against this same point. Then, apparently, the CIA did exactly this... and it worked. Well.

But go ahead, and point out what a horrible idea it was. I gotta tell ya, though, you're probably the best Clinton supporter on the Obama team. A couple more like you, Obama will have the nomination sewn up. You ignore all hard evidence contrary to your "arguments", you bring out the same tired old lines, and jump quickly on anything you can. You support Clinton doggedly- which isn't a problem in and of itself- except you insist she can do no wrong, and appear to be more involved in a personality cult with her than any Obama supporter you dehumanize.

Just my two cents, rounded down to half a cent due to inflation.

by ragekage 2008-04-11 08:41PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

As usual, my post is about five steps ahead of you. Perhaps you should read and respond to what is written rather than pretend that you already know based on your need for apparent persecution.

Weird how completely wrong you've gotten me tonight.

by Little Otter 2008-04-11 08:58PM | 0 recs
Factual inaccuracies are less work

It's easier for ragekage to dismiss the rest of your post when you open yourself up to criticism so early.

I know I wasn't too interested in what else you had to say after citing an easily fact-checkable issue that Obama was completely right on.

Come on, you don't respect us enough to put any effort into it.  Come after us with real Obama issues rather than stuff you pull up from year-old disproven controversies.  Then maybe you'll get a decent response to all of your points.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-11 09:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Factual inaccuracies are less work

What fearful lightweights - argue with what you imagine is said rather than the substance of what is said. Bragging about how you'd be willing to kill Pakistanis as part of your presidential campaign just isn't how Democratic candidates behave.

by Little Otter 2008-04-11 10:26PM | 0 recs
That's great

Except Obama never said that.

You're still selling factual inaccuracies.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-12 04:24AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Heh. Nice spin; you oughtta work for Clinton's campaign. But I noted you're bashing Obama using the same lines as Bush; which isn't unforgivable in and of itself, but you're bashing something that happened and worked.

You're right, I could have read more into it. Because then what you're saying is Obama will be vindicated! Cool!

by ragekage 2008-04-11 09:07PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Excuse me otter, but you are way off subject by bringing up Wright.

by lion king 2008-04-11 09:27PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

It's funny that so many of you have utterly internalized Karl Rove's talking points and actually use them against other Democrats.

I can almost hear you laughing at John Kerry for using the wrong terminology when order his Philly cheesesteak. You probably got a real hoot out of the Maureen Dowd's fictional Kerry "Who among us doesn't love Nascar?" quote. I'll bet you savored the scorn wingnuts like Limbaugh heaped on John Edwards for his haircut. And that Al Gore? A lifetime DC insider who doesn't get "real people" like that earthy George Bush.

Or, who knows, maybe you didn't feel that way back then but have only recently determined that there is no line of attack that can't be embraced to bring Obama down. There's really no difference to me.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 08:04PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Right and you pointed that out to Obama supporters who were bitching about the Tuzla quote right? Oh that's right, you were one of the people complaining about that.

Guess you really don't have any ground to stand on here, do you?

by Little Otter 2008-04-11 08:10PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

If being factually mistaken were unusual in your comments, I might actually take exception. I never complained about Tuzla. I encourage you to search my comment history. Take as long as you need. Come back with a really great Tuzla comment that I posted and shut me up.

See, the fact is, I barely even commented on it. And when I did, I said things like this:

Meanwhile, the candidates and their supporters are wasting money advertising against each other when we could be building up an enormous warchest against McCain. McCain farts around the country confusing Shiites and Sunnis, and no one cares because it's barely covered. Instead, all we get is the latest about Tuzla or Rev. Wright.

I just didn't care that much about Tuzla, especially when commenting on this site. It's glaringly obvious that you have no clue what I believe in, or what I actually write when I'm here. Nonetheless, that doesn't stop you from making a B.S. accusation.

But if you really want to argue about it, Tuzla is different. It was a factual misstatement, not my opinion. Now, if I had taken that simple misstatement and plugged it into some overarching, nutty GOP attack line like, "OMG!!! THOSE CLINTONS REALY ARE LIARS DESPERATE FOR POWER!!!" then you might have a point. But I didn't, so you don't.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 08:33PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Johnny I love you.

by interestedbystander 2008-04-11 11:54PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

So you're saying that Tuzla statement was akin to pretending to like NASCAR.

Except Kerry wasn't touting his foreign affairs experience by claiming to like NASCAR. Three times. Then lying about it, then contritely apologizing about it, then laughing about it and trying desperately to change the topic.

by ragekage 2008-04-11 08:44PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

The NASCAR comment was a fabrication.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 08:50PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I know, I was just illustrating my point.

by ragekage 2008-04-11 09:00PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Please check out CSPAN and listen to what Secretary of the Army Togo West had to say about that Bosnia trip.  

by TinaH1963 2008-04-11 09:01PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Please hunt up the video of her actual arrival at Tuzla.

by ragekage 2008-04-11 09:13PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I will do that...in fact another blogger on MyDD kindly did that, and I've seen it myself.

by TinaH1963 2008-04-11 09:21PM | 0 recs
I would say the same of most Obama supporters
conversely - - and add a lot of Ken Starr to the mix.
by linc 2008-04-11 08:11PM | 0 recs
Re: I would say the same of most Obama supporters

Since when has there been any concerted effort to bring up the Ken Starr B.S.?

In ALL the diaries and articles I have read, here and on dKos, I literally do not recall a single one that advocated Monica Lewinsky, Whitewater, Filegate, Travelgate, and the rest of the idiotic '90s non-scandals as valid lines of attack.

I'm not talking about one random ass on a site of 150,000 people who tried to make a campaign issue out of those things. Lord knows that's impossible to monitor. But there is definitely no systematic, widespread invocation of Ken Starr and the rest of that crap against Clinton on any blogs I've read.

I am not accusing of you being dishonest in your statement, but I do think you are mistaken.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 08:21PM | 0 recs
Re: I would say the same of most Obama supporters

Obama's campaign brought up the Starr investigation charges directly a few weeks ago, and the Obama supporters here constantly rattle on about White Water and File gate. Do a search on the diaries here, and see how often Lewinsky comes up. Marc Rich as well.

by Little Otter 2008-04-11 08:28PM | 0 recs
Re: I would say the same of most Obama supporters

Okay, now you're just digging yourself deeper.

No one here is "constantly rattling on" about Whitewater, Lewinsky and Filegate. I call B.S. on that one, flat-out.

I found a few mentions of Marc Rich, the more recent ones only in regard to why David Geffen jumped ship on the Clintons. (Personally, I have no problem with anyone bringing up Marc Rich with regard to Bill, as I think it was a terrible pardon. But that's neither here nor there.)

And I think you've gotten yourself a little mixed-up on the Ken Starr thing. See, it was the Clinton campaign that compared Obama to Ken Starr, not the other way around. But of course, I can see how you'd get Clinton and Obama confused, not checking facts and all.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 08:41PM | 0 recs
Re: I would say the same of most Obama supporters

Not true...check out HuffPo.  That was why I stopped responding--the attacks were personal and and nasty and continually referenced all the stuff the Republicans tried to crucify the Clintons on.

by TinaH1963 2008-04-11 08:41PM | 0 recs
Re: I would say the same of most Obama supporters

This is MyDD. It is not HuffPo or dKos, and we are not responsible for the sins of others around the internet.

Most of the Obama supporters here attempt to be reasonable, or at the very least, don't stoop to the levels seen elsewhere on the internet.

Many of us are here specifically because we want a more reasoned discourse. And then we're all attacked as out-of-touch wealthy elitists.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 08:49PM | 0 recs
Re: I would say the same of most Obama supporters

I responded as I did because you said other blogs...I assumed you meant in the wider blogosphere.  My apologies.

by TinaH1963 2008-04-11 09:02PM | 0 recs
Re: I would say the same of most Obama supporters

No, you're correct...I did say "other blogs," but my reading is limited to dKos, MyDD, Eschaton and Americablog. I also read HuffPo, but just the articles. I don't know if I've ever read comments there. I should've clarified.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 09:05PM | 0 recs
Harry and Louise part II
isn't that enough?
by linc 2008-04-14 08:13AM | 0 recs
Re: I would say the same of most Obama supporters

What, you mean when Clinton compared Obama to Ken Starr? Right?

by ragekage 2008-04-11 08:45PM | 0 recs
Re: I would say the same of most Obama supporters

Yeah, that's an interesting technique--accuse us of doing what your own candidate's campaign actually did.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 08:53PM | 0 recs
Re: I would say the same of most Obama supporters

Say, I think that's something Karl Rove did extensively. Hmmm.

Not that I'm trying to draw a picture here, or anything. You know how it is.

by ragekage 2008-04-11 08:59PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I'm not taking any pleasure in this.  And I would like to say that I was personally pleased to see people calm down and start really talking to each other again.  It would be a shame if this was used to divide us.  That said, some of his comments came off as condescending.  George Lakoff talks alot about how issues are framed--for some it's all about values--this is what I think Obama missed here.

by TinaH1963 2008-04-11 08:34PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Dude - I don't hand out many 1s but you just earned one with your post accusing us of siding with Rove.

This is called politics.  It's primary season so you'll excuse us if we don't bow down to the almighty obama and his followers.

He insulted a lot of people with that remark.  He's shown us time and time again just how detached he is from our every day lives and if you can't handle my pointing that out then maybe you should find another hobby.

BTW - you'd better get used to people pointing out BO's failing and flaws because if he gets the nomination they'll be coming at you with this stuff a thousand fold.  You think I'm being tough or mean, you ain't seen NOTHIN' yet.

by alegre 2008-04-11 09:17PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

But Obama supporters aren't worried about what the repugs will throw at us. He just proved tonight with his responses that he can certainly handle "the kitchen sink", and turn it around into an attack against the attackers. If we're not worried, why are you??

by lion king 2008-04-11 09:34PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

This is called politics.  

It's not Democratic politics to utterly ridicule another Democrat as a "liberal elitist," and to state that his supporters don't understand real working-class people. You and some others have been doing this non-stop for weeks, especially after the March fund-raising numbers were announced, and it's kicked into overdrive tonight.

The examples I stated in my previous comment were Rove hitjobs and media smears of good and true Democrats in the past. We are always derided as effete, liberal snobs. We "don't get" real America, as the commentators so helpfully told us a thousand times after the 2004 election. And here it all is again tonight.

Heck, I'm not accusing you of siding with Rove, I'm stating that you are becoming Rove by parroting his exact same attacks against members of your own party. If that offends you, then you may want to consider whether attacking fellow Democrats as elitists and rich snobs is helpful to our party.

But hell, let's put the party aside for a moment...you are personally insulting ME and others just like me by calling us out-of-touch elitists. You don't know a damn thing about us, our lives, our day-to-day jobs or our struggles, but you deign to affix a pejorative label to us?

You think I'm being tough or mean, you ain't seen NOTHIN' yet.

Oh, believe me, I expect tough and mean, as well as unfair and insulting. But I expect it from republicans, not from within our own party. Not like this. This is well beyond the realm of point-scoring blog battles. This is personal, it is mean-spirited and it is hurtful.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 09:34PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I am not parroting anything.  I grew up in a barrio in San Antonio and went to a school so bad it went into receivership. I was fortunate to get out and have the opportunity to go to a great college; consequently, I've been able to make to a decent living, but it's not always been this way.  I've also worked weekends as a maid and a cashier to supplement my 40-hour a week job.  I attend a church full of lovely people, most of whom have postgraduate degrees and are arguably middle to upper-middle class.  They are well-meaning, but they sometimes behave as though they're the only folks with any sense, because of those degrees and their relative comfort--and that's classism in action.  I'm not kidding. I'm not trying to defame or hurt anyone, but I think we all should look critically at ourselves, and try to see ourselves through someone else's eyes.  I sincerely apologize to those who are feeling attacked, because that's not the intent.

by TinaH1963 2008-04-11 09:49PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I appreciate and greatly respect your response.

What you said about seeing ourselves through someone else's ideas is exactly my point. We are not an enclave of rich snobs who support Obama because it's as fashionable as a trendy club.

Sure, there are rich people who support Obama just as some also support Clinton. But for the most part, we are just like you. We just happen to be other Democrats who support a different candidate.  (In fact, many of us, including myself, began the election as Edwards supporters and picked Obama only after Edwards dropped out.)

It's one thing when you're defending your candidate against attacks--we're all used to that. But it's another when you're actually defending yourself. That's why tonight has been so demoralizing. No, not because Obama had a bad day, but because for the first time, I just really feel like I don't understand my fellow Democrats here at all.

I don't understand how people who know nothing about me but my candidate preference can stereotype me and pass judgment on my worth as a person. I don't understand how they can do it using the same style of attack we've been fighting against since the days of Bush-Dukakis.

Anyway, sorry for rambling, and thanks for sharing your story.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 10:15PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

More nonsense about how Obama doesn't have plans...yet we all know that he does.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 08:05PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Do we really need a 10th diary on this subject?

by Bobby Obama 2008-04-11 08:06PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

YES

by mnicholson0220 2008-04-11 08:12PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Talk to me when we've caught up to you guys and your bosnia diaries ok?

by alegre 2008-04-11 09:18PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Actually most of the Bosnia diaries were written by Clinton supporters, explaining why it was no big deal.  You wrote a few yourself, remember?

by interestedbystander 2008-04-12 12:01AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Maybe if your candidate's "better half" would stop talking about it, it might go away.

If you want to continue to push Obama's words as some sort of gaffe, please, please proceed. The immediate reaction by press on the Clinton News Network doesn't bode well for your line of argument.

But don't bother watching it since it runs contrary to your narrative:

http://www.youtube.com/v/4G8dRMofHNs& ;hl=en

by bookish 2008-04-12 06:04AM | 0 recs
From that newsclip.

"He's already being hammered by Hillary Clinton and John McCain for that matter..."

Really says it all.

by you like it 2008-04-12 11:11AM | 0 recs
That, and...

"The Hillary Clinton campaign and the John McCain campaign have the same goal..."

Well, no fucking shit.

I'm reaching the threshold of my tolerance for the Clinton campaign. No less than a week ago, I would still have said there was a 100% chance I would vote for the Democratic nominee, no matter who it was, but I've just about reached the breaking point for moral clarity on this. If she ever says "people are sick and tired (of Bush)" or "people are fed up with the way they're being treated" or any permutation of those thoughts, then she's a fucking hypocrite and a manipulative human being that deserves no respect, no support and no quarter.

by bookish 2008-04-12 01:39PM | 0 recs
No, he doesn't

But, look on the bright side, he could have  spent a week "writing his own" (wow! really? amazing!) "historic" speech, in which he answered the criticisms of HIS prejudice and condescension by pointing out how the rest of us have failed, and by inviting us all to join a "national dialogue" on class.

If he had done that, Chris Matthews, and every professor, "liberal" minister, and editorial writer in the land would have convulsed in spasms of ecstasy!

by freemansfarm 2008-04-11 08:07PM | 0 recs
You mean the deeply historical

speech that he stole from Bill Clinton (Million Man March)?   Yes, well, he can probably steal something appropriate to this occasion from FDR.   How we need to have a "National Conversation" about guns and "anti-trade" beliefs.

by mnicholson0220 2008-04-11 08:12PM | 0 recs
Re: You mean the deeply historical

I just gave you some mo - I don't know why you got troll rated for speaking the truth about BC's million man march speech and how "similar" Obama's was to it.

Only difference is that Bill didn't have to throw anyone under the bus and he didn't have to make the speech to Cover His Azzz.

by colebiancardi 2008-04-12 08:57AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

The good people of Pennsylvania may find this elitist attitude a bit off-putting.

by Tolstoy 2008-04-11 08:07PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

You know, considering the people of Pennsylvania- who are resilient, who are optimistic, who are positive, who are rolling up their sleeves, and are working hard everyday for a better future, for themselves and their children- I don't think they'll care much about this statement, since, by golly, they're in fantastic shape. Clinton should borrow JFK's campaign song of "High Hopes".

by ragekage 2008-04-11 08:48PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

You didn't mention the other part of her speech.  That's where she said that some people are doing ok, but others aren't.  And what government needs to do is take action--she was quite a bit more specific than I, but I hope you understand.  If we want to get past the silliness, we all need to stop repeating quotes out of context.  There is no real difference in the solutions she and Obama are outlining, as I understand it, since they both understand that the system hasn't worked for everyone.

by TinaH1963 2008-04-11 09:09PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Hey I grew up in Michigan - been away a good many years but I can assure you my family aren't nearly as ignorant or full of anger as he makes them out to be.

by alegre 2008-04-11 08:55PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Are you every single white person??? Obama used a sloppy generalization, but the key word being generalization.

by Pravin 2008-04-12 12:40AM | 0 recs
Reaching, Alegre.

Grover Norquist, really?

Stop listening to the right wingers telling us how to feel about our candidate.

Obama was right.  You can't take his words out of context and expect to score any points.

Obama crushed the arguments against his comments.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc9PepjyDo w

CNN has already laughed this one off.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4G8dRMofHN s

People are bitter.  YOU are obviously bitter, alegre, because nobody happy with themself tries to tear down another so vehemently.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-11 08:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Reaching, Alegre.

Yeah - Norquist.  Get used to it guys - if BO gets the nod we're going to be hearing a lot from the likes of Norquist on elitist image of Obama's.

And every couple of months he reinforces that image with comments like this.

by alegre 2008-04-11 08:57PM | 0 recs
The difference

Obama will react to it with just as much swiftness and veracity as he reacted to this.  He will point out--rightly, that McCain is from a privledged family and went directly from the military to politics.  He will note that McCain, POW years aside, has never been poor.  In fact, he was kept as a POW specifically because he was elite.

You're saying that McCain, son and grandson of admirals, will be able to paint Barack Obama as an elite?

You underestimate Obama again, my friend.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-11 09:12PM | 0 recs
Re: The difference

Swiftness?  Veracity? LOL!  Yeah I can see the GOP folding up their tent and going home.

That's rich - thanks for the belly laugh.

by alegre 2008-04-11 09:21PM | 0 recs
Yay

I'm glad I made you feel better.  You were worrying me for a bit... like 10 people beat you to the diary scoop, which isn't like you at all.

But if I helped you remember that even your relentless Republican-like attacks on Obama haven't, and won't, sink his candidacy, you can go to bed, content with the knowledge that, together, you and I, are slowly innoculating Obama from Republican attacks in the fall.

With you and me and all the great people working together, we can make sure that everything that can be brought up against Obama will have been beaten to death before the Republicans can effectively use them.

Hooray!

by Dracomicron 2008-04-11 09:28PM | 0 recs
Re: The difference

Who the fuck cares what the republicans will do when they will do the same to Hillary.

by Pravin 2008-04-12 12:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Reaching, Alegre.

You just wait until Clinton gets elected in 2008.  Norquist will pretty much take over Congress in 2010 like he did in 1994 and dictate the agenda for Clinton.  

by Toddwell 2008-04-11 09:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Reaching, Alegre.

And if Obama can't win Grover Norquist, then he'll never ever win in Pennsylvania, especially not in the general election, which he will never get to, since if he can't win Grover Norquist, and by extension white people in general, and he'll, like, have to drop out. And that will give the superdelegates pause. Or something.

by kyle in philly 2008-04-11 09:26PM | 0 recs
I get it too
thanks alegre!
by linc 2008-04-11 08:10PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

The good people of Indiana loved it. Watch the clip. Standing ovation from the crowd - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc9PepjyD ow

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 08:10PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Barack Obama - Jedi Master

http://videos.newsobserver.com/index.php ?a=player&id=1816319

by Nobama 2008-04-11 08:14PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I've heard about this one but this is the first time I've seen that video - too funny!

Thanks Nobama ;o)

by alegre 2008-04-11 09:02PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Hmmm - are you the same Nobama that posts on Redstate?

by interestedbystander 2008-04-12 12:05AM | 0 recs
No one is mentioning the "anti-trade"

remark.   Anti-trade?   Um .... does that by any chance mean "anti-NAFTA"?

This is a come-to-Jesus moment for the anti-NAFTA Clinton haters.    Which is it going to be?  The rednecks who are so stupid and bitter they cling to anti-trade views, or the messiah who'll say anything to anyone to get elected?

by mnicholson0220 2008-04-11 08:10PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

wait wait are you telling me that you guys don't know anyone who is losing their house?

you don't know anyone who can't get healthcare right now?

or who lost a job? you don't know any of these people and you think you know what regular people need?

because damn right I am bitter, the government doesn't work, they don't serve us anymore the serve lobbyist, so damn right I am bitter and every American facing what we people at the bottom face they are bitter too. or you go down to the hospital and find someone who can't get help because they don't have $100 and ask them are they optimistic or damn bitter at the government.

maybe you guys have lost touch

by TruthMatters 2008-04-11 08:12PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Most folks haven't made $109 million in the last 7 years while having taxpayers pay our travel and phone expenses. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/040 8/9531.html

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 08:15PM | 0 recs
So you cling to your gun,

your religion and while you're at it, you look around at those who don't look like you and become anti-immigrant and anti-this person?

It's very true that people are unhappy - some very bitter no doubt, but the things he said about clinging and laying the blame on others didn't set well with some of us.

by Southern Mouth 2008-04-11 08:21PM | 0 recs
Re: So you cling to your gun,
Some of "you" the rural voters in states like Penn and Ohion haven't voted for a dem in some 20 odd years. The dems will never get back the Reagan dems until we do exactly what Obama's response was talkiing about. Reagan dems have been voting against their own economic interests for years, and what did you get for those votes????
Nothing. So why would you keep voting AGAINST the dems???
by lion king 2008-04-11 08:33PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Obviously a lot of people are in this boat--I know many people who are hurting.  The only problem here is that Obama seemed to attack some of the values of some voters.  I don't think he's elitist, but when you say things like "cling" to religion and guns, without the qualifier, how are people supposed to take it?  That's the issue, and a small one at that, but we need to be circumspect when framing an argument, and I don't think he was.

by TinaH1963 2008-04-11 09:15PM | 0 recs
The Video
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Sc9PepjyDow&amp;hl=en"&gt;&lt;/param&gt&lt;param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Sc9PepjyDow&amp;hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
by jwolf 2008-04-11 08:12PM | 0 recs
whoops

sorry....guess that wasn't formatted right

by jwolf 2008-04-11 08:13PM | 0 recs
Nice of Hillary and McCain to feed him

straight lines.  He'll be including what they said in his stump speeches from now on and using it to show how they really don't get it.

You saw his rebuttal speech in Iowa, right?  Like the man has said he may be skinny but he is tough...scrappy.

by GFORD 2008-04-11 08:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Nice of Hillary and McCain to feed him

I hope he does ads with this sort of message. It's great!  We are mad as hell and frustrated and yes bitter that the government has not cared about us.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 08:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Nice of Hillary and McCain to feed him

And now, according to Senator Obama, you're a feeble hick who cries in the church pews and talks about "those damn Mexi-cans stealin our jobs". That's electability you can believe in.

by zcflint05 2008-04-11 08:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Nice of Hillary and McCain to feed him

No, according to you.  Stop putting words into other people's mouths.

by interestedbystander 2008-04-12 12:07AM | 0 recs
Pieces

I wrote some time back that the way each of us "get to know" the other is kinda like the way we work a jigsaw puzzle.  

We get this piece and fit it in and then other, and then a bunch of pieces that cling to each other.  Now, with jigsaw puzzles, you have a picture from which to work - to put the puzzle together.

With people, we do the same - in an effort to continue to exist on the planet - but here in America some of us also try our best to not slap an entire picture together based on a few pieces.

Obama has been an unknown to many people and he has introduced himself very well from town to town to state to state.  We each fit together the pieces that we hear/see, but none of us have the total picture of the man, his life, his family, his soul.  And we don't have THAT for anyone else on earth either, including our own selves.

Slowly, more pieces of Obama are being placed on the table and each of us begin to TRY to form an image of who the man really is.  Who is this man who wants to lead the USA for the next 4 years?  And based on that, what is he most likely going to do, how is he going to lead, where is he going to take us?

Those that support his effort to be Prez look at those pieces differently than people who have another candidate in mind.  

I say, as a pseudo-Hillary supporter (Al Gore's my man), let's not jump to conclusions about the entire man Barack Obama based on a few pieces.  Also, let us not be afraid or intimidated into closing our eyes to those same pieces.

He is after all a man like all men ... and women.  None are perfect.

For President, I don't about all you, but I want the best person for the job - to handle the job that is set before us - the HUGE job set before us.  For me, I can't imagine why any person in their right mind would want to try to fix the mess that BushCo is bequeathing!

by Southern Mouth 2008-04-11 08:13PM | 0 recs
For what it's worth

I hope Obama chooses Al Gore as his running mate.

Nobody is more qualified to answer the phone at 3 AM than Al Gore.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-11 09:14PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

The Democratic party used to be the party where we vote on policy positions and ideals. Now, however, I feel that line of thinking, you know, the one directly related to intelligence and analytical thinking. We are voting on small, OUT OF CONTEXT snippets of candidates' speeches that are spun negatively.

To completely disregard these stereotypes is "out of touch". These stereotypes do exist and ordinary people see them every where. I see people who don't vote for people because Hillary's a woman. I see people who don't vote for McCain because he's old. I see people who don't vote for Obama because he's a terrorist. I see people who are dressed like gangsters who act like gangers, I see people who dress like farmers and are actually farmers, and I see people who are nerds who act like nerds.

However, I also see the contrary. I see people who support Hillary for her policy views. I see people people support McCain because they agree with him on economic issues. I see people who support Obama because of his stance of the issues. I see people who speak with a ghetto accent that are intelligent and a good person in every right, I see people who dress with hand me down clothes that are high class in every way but appearance, and I see people who wear Aeropostale and Abercrombie and Fitch that are head over hells for politics.

That's the point Obama's trying to make. People are BREAKING these stereotypes. They're rising above pre-conceived notions and he says that's a good thing. This negative spin is merely looking about the background information he presents (the working-class members he talks to) and saying that, just because he uses that background information, he must be elitist! This is WRONG! He is showing that he has a higher opinion of people. He is saying that we, as Americans, rise above the typical "stupid American" stereotype.

On a final note, voting against someone because you think they're cocky? Might as well vote against Clinton because you don't like her smile or McCain because he's bald.

Please, save MyDD the bandwidth.

by Mokumi 2008-04-11 08:21PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?
Edits on the first paragraph: "The Democratic party used to be the party where we vote on policy positions and ideals. Now, however, I feel that line of thinking, you know, the one directly related to intelligence and analytical thinking, may be dying out We are voting on small, OUT OF CONTEXT snippets of candidates' speeches that are spun negatively."
by Mokumi 2008-04-11 08:23PM | 0 recs
Surely you know

The VAST majority of Americans vote for the person based on perception - which is largely formed by soundbytes.

All us political junkies are the minority.

This soundbyte doesn't play well.  Just like Hillary sniper soundbyte shot her in the bahootie.  Not a big deal in the big picture, but her numbers plummeted.  That's the way it is - for all.

by Southern Mouth 2008-04-11 08:25PM | 0 recs
Yes, but...

More and more, people are listening to the context.

5 million hits on Obama's "More Perfect Union" speech... that's a 37 minute behemoth, not exactly a soundbyte.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-11 09:32PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Are people so dense to pick up and run with a word Republicans have used against all Dems for 40 years?
Elitist?
Maybe folks where you live are not bitter after Bush/Cheney..
How were the lives of the working folks in PA under 8 years of Clinton? Are you saying no factories closed as we were led into the glories of globalization?
Do you disagree that Rove inc did not use Gay marriage issue to bring out a big vote in 2004 OHIO?
When you put gas in your car(does anyone really fill-up anymore?)are folks at the pump next to you singing a happy song?
Are folks happy when they go to buy food..and the basics have gone up so much forget anything extra?
If that is the case..than yep Obama was out of line. But for most Americans it is spot on...

tap yer toes..it's all good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTW0y6kaz WM

by nogo war 2008-04-11 08:38PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

As a "normal" person I'm angry AND bitter about what the Republican elites have done to our country.

Rather than vote for someone who voted for their war and destruction of education law, I voted for someone who offered hope for something new.  

Of course this statement was a bad move politically.  It is also TRUE.  The Republicans have used immigrants, guns and gays to divide people under economic stress.  If Hillary really cares about these people she will be honest with them about that fact.

by Renie 2008-04-12 02:28PM | 0 recs
Re: OBAMA'S MACACA MOMENT

I think this is going to be Obama's macaca moment.  It's not a gaffe -- it's who he is.  

by Middleagemom 2008-04-11 08:41PM | 0 recs
Wait

You are saying that you think that saying we have had tough times over the last seven years is the same as race baiting?

Wow.

by Populista 2008-04-11 09:00PM | 0 recs
It is who he is

Thoughtful, but powerful in his rhetoric, rational.

Perhaps you should read the whole quote and his response.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-11 09:18PM | 0 recs
Re: OBAMA'S MACACA MOMENT

No, you hope it is - but he'll come out ahead of this issue, because people will talk about it and see he's right.

by interestedbystander 2008-04-12 12:10AM | 0 recs
Let's put his remarks in context...

Obama was talking to a crowd of multi-zillionaire Silicon Valley backers. These people are amoung the most self-important people on the planet. Obama was explaining to them why he is having trouble connecting with poor white working class people, and his reasoning is that these people are so twisted up by their poverty and hopelessness that they have embraced their guns, religion and bigotry, and can not even see clearly what it is that is in their own good--that being him... Obama... the guy that all those folks have just written big checks to.

The idea is to explain the lack of support among poor white people as being invalid due to confusion brought on by their hard economic condition. To flatter the rich supporters for being so enlightened as to see clearly the goodness of Obama. To appeal to these rich people that they are better than the poor people who can't see this clearly. And finally, he is appealing to the do-gooder nature of these rich supporters that by supporting Obama they are actually helping these poor white people who don't even know enough to vote for what is in their best interest, again him... Obama.

This is an appeal that works very well with these Silicon Valley types who have no problem at all in believing that anything they think is absolutely truly the way it is.

by MediaFreeze 2008-04-11 08:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Let's put his remarks in context...

Don't even go there.  Hillary Clinton, who made $111 million in the past six years, doesnt know the first thing about the working poor.  She is nothing but a big phony.  

by Toddwell 2008-04-11 08:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Let's put his remarks in context...

It is not about how much money you have, it is about how you characterize view others.

by MediaFreeze 2008-04-11 09:03PM | 0 recs
Exactly

You need to listen to yourself, because you're characterizing others uncharitably.

You're doing to Obama what you think Obama did to rural Pennsylvanians.

Even though he never pigeonholed them as badly as you're pigeonholing him.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-11 09:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Exactly

That's ridiculous. He's the one who said what he said. I'm not putting words into his mouth.

by MediaFreeze 2008-04-11 09:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Exactly

No, but you're not including the words that count.

At the end of his speech, he said that people break those stereotypes that he discussed earlier.  That there were people who weren't bitter, even people excited to volunteer for the new guy with the funny name.

And you're saying that he's talking down to them.  It's hypocritical.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-11 09:36PM | 0 recs
It is so condescending...

Only the few enlightened poor people see through their difficulties to see the light, the truth, the Obama.... bleech...

by MediaFreeze 2008-04-11 09:54PM | 0 recs
As opposed to...

You would rather nobody told them the real truth, and pandered to them like children?

I'd rather go for the guy that let people decide for themselves, rather than the person who microtargets constituencies and tells them what they want to hear, or the other person who tries to scare them with wedge issues like gun control or gay marriage.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-12 05:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Let's put his remarks in context...

As usual, so much projection, so few facts.

by rfahey22 2008-04-11 09:10PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Yoiu are so far out of touch you might as well be living in another country.  Obama compliments a man in a tiny town by saying he is in touch and glad that he is and you try to spin that.  Come on you can't really believe half of what you write.  I am a Pennsylvanian and we know we have been sold out and we are ticked off.  We know our neighbors, many of them Republicans, take solace in voting w/a one issue stance.  You are not going to play out that this was elitist.  This was honest and people know it.  The only people who will buy what she said are those who like her already.  I have been making calls and people are genuinely torn between the two and this will drive them right to Obama.  She sounds like that phony Aunt who says your a cute kid when she really thinks your a brat, but compliments you because it is expedient and not because it is real.

by daninpa 2008-04-11 09:27PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

CBS News/New York Times Poll. March 28-April 2, 2008. N=1,368 adults nationwide.

"Do you feel things in this country are generally going in the right direction or do you feel things have pretty seriously gotten off on the wrong track?"

Right Direction: 14%; Wrong Track: 81%

Gallup  Poll. March 6-9, 2008. N=1,012 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"In general, are you satisfied or dissatisfied with the way things are going in the United States at this time?"

Satisfied: 19%; Dissatisfied: 80%

by haystax calhoun 2008-04-11 09:28PM | 0 recs
Flint MI

From Las Vegas Review Journal 4/1/08
http://www.lvrj.com/news/13762617.html

ON THE ROAD: 'Foreclosure mess' worries Rust Belt refugee, mortgage-strapped family  

"Patricia Polk moved to Las Vegas from Flint, Mich., in 2005 because she didn't want to believe that life sucks and then you die.

The Flint she loved -- where she grew up and retired after 30 years as a teacher and librarian -- no longer existed. Its thriving, blue-collar middle class had largely disappeared.

That happens when your town's largest employer, General Motors, closes plants and sends jobs to foreign countries to hold down costs.

Flint lost half of its 195,000 population. Those left behind lost hope, Polk says. Thousands of homes were boarded up. Crime soared.

"How people feel in Flint is understandable and so sad," says Polk, who tutors schoolchildren. "But it's so depressing to live where people are so bitter about life."

Las Vegas' strong economy and the jobs it produces give people hope, Polk says, and that's part of the reason Southern Nevada has grown so dramatically during recent decades.

She wants the entire country to enjoy the same economic opportunities and thinks Sen. Barack Obama has the best plan to do that.

"I'm caucusing and voting for Obama, because he seems to instill hope in Americans," Polk says."

by haystax calhoun 2008-04-11 09:31PM | 0 recs
Did you notice he avoided the question?

We hear that it's hard for working class people to get behind your campaign. Why is that? I said, well, look, they're frustrated.

So there he was, out in SFO with the uber-rich.  And somebody asked why he wasn't making the sale with the lunch-bucket dems.  Which is to say, why is Hillary getting those voters and you're not?

He didn't answer that.  If it were true that those people were bitter and clinging to their guns and their religion and blaming immigrants, they wouldn't be voting for anybody.   But they are--just not him.

by hitchhiker 2008-04-11 09:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Did you notice he avoided the question?

see post above yours.

by haystax calhoun 2008-04-11 09:51PM | 0 recs
His response tonight was very well done

I said, well, look, they're frustrated. And for good reason.

Except, well, Senator, that's not what you said.  Or at least that's not the way you said it in San Francisco.  

To make matters worse, instead of expressing any kind of humility or regret for offending people, your first reaction was to scold and attack.  

So while the response Obama gave tonight was very well done, it didn't address the original problem with his statements.  It's as if people are always supposed to know what Obama really meant, regardless of his poor choice of words, careless phrasing, and such.  

We are supposed to always assume that Obama meant well, always give him the benefit of the doubt, while on the other hand, we're always supposed to assume the opposite of Hillary Clinton, or anyone else for that matter.

There's absolutely no recognition that groups of people might have felt they were unfairly stereotyped and insulted.  Instead, in the height of arrogance, he reorders his words and panders to his audience in Indiana while he is there.  Anyone who is offended by the way he spoke of them while with his high dollar supporters in San Francisco must be mistaken for he couldn't possibly be at fault.

Then the supporters start with the proclamations that everything he said was true and it's damned well time that the rubes are given a talking to.

I wish I could have such confidence in Obama, I really do.  But the dissonance is too much, too often.  I wish he would stick to issues and his message of hope.  I want to support this guy strongly if he gets the nomination.  I cringe at the thought of him going around the country during a primary election and lecturing the country, giving his analysis of different types of Americans, trying to approach sensitive and divisive issues that need not be addressed right this minute.

Could we please win the White House first?  Please?  Could we play it safe just a little until we're in safer territory?  For God's sake, could we put ego aside until we've gotten control of our government and then tackle some of these things?

Could we not blow this election?  

by joanneleon 2008-04-11 10:12PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Alegre, no he doesn't get it. But you do! Great diary. I wish BO would stop creating divisions in this country. This is not change I could ever believe in. Let's get Hillary in there to find solutions!!!

by susanclare 2008-04-11 10:40PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Great snark!

by interestedbystander 2008-04-12 12:15AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I'm glad that he understands the bitterness that people feel.

It is too bad that Hillary doesn't, but expecting it of her is unfair: She was born into priveledge and has spent the last two decades behind secret service protection, flying around on private jets to dine will world and business leaders :-)

by wrb 2008-04-11 10:50PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Your facts are wrong.  

Hillary was not born into privilege.  She is from a very middle-class Chicago family.  

Obama did not live like a pauper.  His grandmother was a bank VP and his family traveled around the world.  He's lived in Indonesia and Hawaii.  

He had more of a privileged childhood than she.

She didn't have money for college and had to work through it.

As for Secret Service protections, that is what you are guaranteed as First Lady.  You also get the protection after you come to office.  Do you have a problem with that?  Contact Congress.

Incidentally, doesn't Obama also have secret service protection; doesn't he, too, have chauffeurs?

by FilbertSF 2008-04-12 02:06AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

right

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/ 0,8599,1729524-1,00.html

Hillary seems to draw attention to areas where she is weak, which then blow up on her.

Making an issue of experience & the CIC threshold was blunder that set her up for the Tusla blow-back, trying to portray herself as more of the people is similarly dumb.

And I do think the fact that someone has been living in a cocoon of extreme privilege since the Reagan era is is a good reason to doubt that they are the best to lead the country.  

by wrb 2008-04-12 02:33AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Are you changing the subject b/c you're an admitted liar?  

You claim Hillary was born into wealth -- she was not.

You mock Hillary for having Secret Service Protection -- she does and so does every ex-Pres and ex-First Lady

You fail to mention that Obama has had a privileged childhood

You failed to mention that Obama also a millionaire who lives in a millionaire dollar home and has a chaffeur and jets.

by FilbertSF 2008-04-12 02:35AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

from the link

"Mother and son spent months preparing to follow him to Indonesia--getting shots, passports and plane tickets. Until then, neither had left the country. After a long journey, they landed in an unrecognizable place. "Walking off the plane, the tarmac rippling with heat, the sun bright as a furnace," Obama later wrote, "I clutched her hand, determined to protect her."

Lolo's house, on the outskirts of Jakarta, was a long way from the high-rises of Honolulu. There was no electricity, and the streets were not paved. The country was transitioning to the rule of General Suharto. Inflation was running at more than 600%, and everything was scarce. Ann and her son were the first foreigners to live in the neighborhood, according to locals who remember them. Two baby crocodiles, along with chickens and birds of paradise, occupied the backyard. To get to know the kids next door, Obama sat on the wall between their houses and flapped his arms like a great, big bird, making cawing noises, remembers Kay Ikranagara, a friend. "That got the kids laughing, and then they all played together," she says.

Obama attended a Catholic school called Franciscus Assisi Primary School. He attracted attention since he was not only a foreigner but also chubbier than the locals. But he seemed to shrug off the teasing, eating tofu and tempeh like all the other kids, playing soccer and picking guavas from the trees. He didn't seem to mind that the other children called him "Negro," remembers Bambang Sukoco, a former neighbor.

At first, Obama's mother gave money to every beggar who stopped at their door. But the caravan of misery--children without limbs, men with leprosy--churned on forever, and she was forced to be more selective. Her husband mocked her calculations of relative suffering. "Your mother has a soft heart," he told Obama."

by wrb 2008-04-12 02:46AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

That's nice.  It really doesn't change your posts that were full of lies.

Of course, you don't care that they were lies -- so long as the lies were against Clinton.

Of course you don't care that Obama and his wife are millionaires and have secret service protection.

Not that anyone really cares if politicians are rich.  But when you make a false claim, do expect for people to fact-check you.

After all, not everyone is low-info like yourself.

by FilbertSF 2008-04-12 02:54AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

What are the lies?

You really believe that Obama had greater privilege than Clinton?

Or that she has has more contact with poor and working people?

She probably hasn't bought groceries in 20 years.

It is a silly argument.

by wrb 2008-04-12 03:01AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

And you're a silly person who brought up the cheap shot about privilege -- and got the facts wrong!

What's this now about her groceries?  Are you as glib as your posts?

Oh, just in case you spout any more lies about who is privileged and who is not...

Obama went to an exclusive private school in Hawaii... Hillary went to a public school.

Not that it matters.  But for low-info people such as yourself, every bit of knowledge is useful.

by FilbertSF 2008-04-12 04:01AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Actually it is Hillary and her supportes who have raised the issue of being in touch with working people.  So of course people are going to respond, and the obvious response is to point out that it isn't an area where she appears to be at an advantage.

Thus it is a dumb issue to emphasize.

by wrb 2008-04-12 04:51AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Obama has a jet?  Cool.

by interestedbystander 2008-04-12 05:29AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Oh, let's not forget, Obama is well-guarded by Secret Service.

My, he is quite an elitist, isn't he?  

Too bad he goes after Hillary for the very thing he himself is.

Those poor religion-clinging, gun-toting, bitter Pennsylvanians never had a chance...

by FilbertSF 2008-04-12 02:37AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

"One of the great pleasures of running for president is to go to some tiny town in Iowa and you've got some guy in overalls and a seahat to say what do you think about the situation in Burma, and you're thinking that he's going to ask you about corn, and he asks you about Burma."

 When I read this my first thought was of Barbara Bushes statemenet after Katrina while Texas.

 Both were signs of ignorance.

 Oh and for all those of you who are complaining about the Clinton's $109 million  over 7 years I would like to know-is Barack hanging out with the likes of you or his Billionaire friends?

 I'll hang out with the Millionaires thank you.

I think its funny that you Obama supporters comlain about the corporations the this and the that, yet you don't bother to look to see who's behind and overhead of your guy pulling which string. So sad.

 I really hope we're not gonna get a president whose going to have to come after every SOTU or every press conference to clear up what he had previously said, cause that's really gonna get tedious.

 I also wonder if he does this stuff just so he can get some free airtime-see screw up and the media gets a hold of it, runs with it then he can come back and make nice little speechy and get even more free airtime cause now he thinks every body's listening...am I the only one noticing a pattern...?

by artsykr 2008-04-11 10:56PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Exactly.

That stuff about dodging bullets was just a clever attempt to get airtime.

So we don't have to worry that it means that anything is likely tol get tedious.

by wrb 2008-04-11 11:04PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

on the otherhand, perhaps we should be giving some consideration to the question of who will give us the most entertaining 8 years:-)

Pelosi on Bill Clinton's Error-Riddled Excuse: a 'Late-Night Adult Moment'

April 11, 2008 8:34 PM

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., was asked about former President Bill Clinton's error-riddled defense of his wife, regarding her Hemingway-esque accounting of her 1996 trip to Bosnia.

"I can't for the life of me figure out why the president would have said it except he may have been having a late night adult moment," Pelosi told CBS's Bob Schieffer, "but let's leave it at that."

Kind of harsh for a House speaker to say about a former president.

And ABC News' Sarah Amos points out that Bill Clinton's comments were hardly "late night" -- having been uttered at 3 in the afternoon and again at 5 pm.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/ 2008/04/pelosi-on-bill.html

by wrb 2008-04-11 11:17PM | 0 recs
You know...

The original comment was dumb. Really dumb, not in the sentiment he was trying to express but just the words he used. But it's been a long campaign, all the candidates have said something stupid once or twice. But what matters to me is he didn't back down, he re-iterated and clarified what he meant. And to me that took a bit of spine, he could have apologized or made some excuse but he stood up and said no, this is what I believe. If you don't like it, fine. But you have to give him that bit of spine it took. Maybe you're right on how voters will see it, maybe you're wrong, we'll see over the next few weeks.

But as progressives you gotta smile about that hit on McCain. Three tries to recognize the mortgage problem? Come on, he hit that one out of the park.

by Obama Independent 2008-04-11 11:31PM | 0 recs
the 100,000 mark

IN 2000, when I lived in Upstate New York, Hillary Clinton promised that she had a plan to bring 100,000 jobs to the economically depressed region. She campaigned on this promise. People (like me) vote for her because they believed this promise. It is now 8 years later. The 100k jobs never happened. When asked about this, Hillary recently stated that when she promised these 100k jobs, she was planning on a Gore presidency and not a Bush presidency. And that was the end of that.

Today, in the LA Times, there is a report. It is headlined: "Clinton Promises to Put 100k Cops on the Street." This is in PA.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la- na-campaign12apr12,0,2036363.story

I want everyone reading this entry to know that I've been here before. Upstate NY is, in fact, right next to (and might as well be) NE PA. I know this 100k promise. You may say, and even think, that when people say HRC will "say anything to get elected" that it is a smear. But from where I am sitting, she has done this before (the 100k promise).

I am saying this not to be a jerk, but to tell every Clinton supporter that I have been there. I have supported Hillary. I have believed her when she has made these promises. And, in contrast to the image (if you will, the rhetoric,  the "empty words") of her as a "fighter" she has not followed through on these promises and she has not even bothered to explain or account for this failure. And, just like out media, no one remembers and no one seems to care that she both made and, over an 8 year period, broke these promises.

Just my two cents.

by DrPolitics 2008-04-11 11:41PM | 0 recs
Let me correct myself

she promised 200k jobs in Upstate NY when she ran. During her first 6 year term as Senator, the region lost 170k jobs!!!

This is the record of the person who has claimed that she will "fight for you."

by DrPolitics 2008-04-12 12:44AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

You guys are quit a riot with your desperate attempts at getting outraged by anything Obama does. The only odd thing I noticed was Obama talking about clinging to religion. Isn't that what he does with his overreliance on faith? He seems to conaider religion a big deal in his life too. I find him a little too religious for my tastes.

by Pravin 2008-04-12 12:45AM | 0 recs
Who needs honesty?

When you have spin?

by darryl darryl darryl 2008-04-12 01:59AM | 0 recs
Why are we fighting about this?

 The man spoke truth. For my part, I'm a southern white male Libertarian/Progresive who's sick about what our Washington culture has become. I'm done with political triangulation, and I'm seriously pissed off that Hillary's most recent slam comes on the heels (co-ordinated with?) of McSames newest half-assed talking-point. I have nothing but love for Hillary as a person, as a candidate, and as an American, but her behavior is pushing the envelope! If her focus is America, then fight on! If her focus is Hillary's America, then I hafta say yer frakkin killing us. All the Hillary-haters can rag me about it, but she won't frak us for ambition...I hope...

Obama 08  / Hillary SML

by Kordo 2008-04-12 02:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Why are we fighting about this?

Her behavior and her attacks?  Did she force Obama to insult Pennsylvanians?

You guys talk like a bunch of conspiracy freaks. Hillary conspired with McCain?  It was ALL over the news and they commented on it.

Ms. Fowler of the Huffington Post sat on this audio and story for two days.  She stated that the comment bothered her and she had write about it.  She didn't want to at first b/c she didn't want to end his campaign.

The only person who is committing "political triangulation" is yourself.

This is not "speaking the truth."  It's an insult.  This is calling economically-depressed people bitter and angry.  This is saying that people who are bitter tend to cling to religion and their guns.  

by FilbertSF 2008-04-12 02:44AM | 0 recs
Soak this in a bit more....

"they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them..."

This quote is the kiss of death.

He just called a large part of the electorate bitter, gun-toting, churchy racists! Not a good move. Hillary is going to whack him good over this...and she should. No democrat who says stuff like that can win a general election. He's not ready.

This could have only been said behind closed doors among elite fundraisers where he thought he couldn't be heard. Imagine this stump speech in PA:

"I know times are tough. You've grown bitter. You cling to your guns. You cling to your religion. You don't like people who are different. So vote for me!"

Like I said...kiss of death.

by Scan 2008-04-12 03:10AM | 0 recs
Come on

You didn't read the rest of the statement.  

"Stalin was a caring father when his first son was a young boy..."

Aw, how nice, Joseph Stalin was a caring father.

"...but after his first wife died in 1907, the two grew incresingly apart and ill feelings arose, until his son committed suicide."

Oh.  

You see, if we'd just stopped at the first part of the statement, we might get the idea that Stalin was a good father.  When you include the rest of it, the context kicks in.

The concept of a statement getting across one meaning while later statements changing the meaning of the entire passage might be a little too 7th grade English for some folks, but I assure you that it's true.

Obama said that people will surprise you, that these bitter gun-toting religious folks are not bound by those descriptors, and will do crazy things like volunteer or donate to a campaign of a guy with a funny name that they've never heard of before last year.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-12 05:08AM | 0 recs
Sorry Alegre, but

Axelrod planned this moment. It wasn't initially spun very well, but now it looks brilliant after McCain and HRC pounced on it to show their lack of understanding the problems of Middle America.

I agree that Obama's premise is a little complex for an uninterested voter that would prefer to watch Bass fishing over World News Tonight . . . but for those of you that bit on this trap:

by Veteran75 2008-04-12 04:08AM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry Alegre, but

Phew!  Good thing only the fully "informed" will be voting in November and we passed that legislation stripping bass fishing fans of their citizenship!

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-04-12 04:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry Alegre, but

most of them will be out at the polls voting for Bob Barr or John McCain.

I never expected Hillary or Obama to get much of the NRA or immigrant-hating vote in the GE!

by Veteran75 2008-04-12 04:39AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm Bitter

I'm bitter that an powerful Obama supporter like Donnna Brazile would suggest that equality for Queer people is an "affront" to the civil rights movement.  

Otherwise, I'm just fine.

by johnnygunn 2008-04-12 04:58AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm Bitter
how is this linked to the topic. Gay guy just wondering over here.
by mikeinsf 2008-04-12 07:53AM | 0 recs
I'll bite

I will, for the sake of argument, agree that Obamas initial comments were not very well put together.  I'll even go so far as to say they appeared disrespectful.

The problem for McCain and Clinton is that they immediately went into attack mode and played pander politician.  Dont get me wrong, they did what years in politics trained them to do and if the tables were reversed who knows if Obama would have done it (although he has had chances to poke at Clinton on Tuzla and hasnt).

What this then led to was the chance for Obama to put his ship right and clarify his words and he came back with a slam dunk of a nuanced and thoughtful response.  He got a chance to address the issue and get his ducks in a row and provide a great response.

While Im an Obama supporter, Im no cultist.  I dont believe he is the second coming and I think he is somewhat unknown and unproven.  But he has some traits that I find refreshing and admirable and every time he gets a chance to do the right thing he seems to do it.  I like that he doesnt jump too quick, he takes nuanced stances and isnt afraid to say unpleasant things or address tough topics.  And every time someones thinks they have him cornered with a flub, it gives him a chance to address it head on and with more flair, substance and nuance.  Its like every time someones attacks what he says, he is then given the platform to take it a step further and hit a home run.

He came right out and said 'hey look, what I said sounded bad and didnt convey exactly what I hoped and meant.  I made a mistake, and here is what I meant...'.  And then he was given a chance to set the record straight and hit the points home and on the money.  

So he admitted he was wrong and apologized.  Something neither of the other candidates seem to be able to do.

So in the end this 'gaffe' turned around on itself and gave Obama the perfect platform to hit another one out of the park.

Sure I'll hear another cynical chorus of 'another speech' yada yada yada in response to this, but hes playing to his strengths and if you think that Clinton and McCain would turn down one tenth of that ability, youre crazy.  The thing is, when Obama gets a chance to lay his feelings out on the line, they come off feeling sincere, thoughful and nuanced.  Which is rare in politics.

Trust me, I know hes no messiah and hes a politician, but I believe he has a chance to be something special.  Id rather take a chance on potential unknown greatness than known mendacity and mediocracy.

So in the end I think this will help Obama, he just got free play to hammer home key points and it was in the context of disagreeing with his opponents.  So he comes out looking right and they come off looking clueless.  I'll take that any day.

by pattonbt 2008-04-12 05:01AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It At All!

By way of Jeralyn at Talk Left:

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) -- Barack Obama said anti-abortion Democrats are backing him because they feel he respects their opinion on the issue despite disagreement on it.

The Democratic presidential candidate favors abortion rights, but he noted his support from former Rep. Tim Roemer of Indiana and Sen. Bob Casey of Pennsylvania who are anti-abortion.

"It may be that those who have opposed abortion get a sense that I'm listening to them and respect their position even though where we finally come down may be different," he told reporters at a news conference.

<strong<"The mistake that pro-choice forces have sometimes made in the past, and this is a generalization so it has not always been the case, has been to not acknowledge the wrenching moral issues involved in it," he said.</strong>

"Most Americans recognize that what we want to do is avoid, or help people avoid, having to make this difficult choice. That nobody is pro-abortion, abortion is never a good thing."

Umm...pardon my disgust, Sen. Obama. But you are pandering to right-wing memes and intentionally insulting our intelligence--and being dismissive of women--when you accuse "pro-choice forces" of not recognizing the "wrenching moral issues" involved in abortion!

Moreover, you are INTENTIONALLY IGNORING the fundamental "moral issue" of whether or not WOMEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONTROL THEIR OWN BODIES.

Furthermore, "pro-choice forces" as you so dismissively and offensively call us, have ALWAYS sought to fully fund PLANNED PARENTHOOD and other sources of education and birth control for all women in order to prevent having to make those "wrenching moral" choices.

So, you can STICK IT WHERE THE SUN DON'T SHINE, Barack Obama, you offensive, stupid, arrogant, narcissistic, self-aborbed, santimonious, lying, adolescent little liar.

There is no way you are going to get my vote in November.

by Tennessean 2008-04-12 05:16AM | 0 recs
Anti-choice Democrats going pro-Obama?

Nobody is "pro-abortion"

People like myself who feel that women have the RIGHT TO DETERMINE WHETHER THEY HAVE A CHILD OR NOT are pro-CHOICE

Freudian slip?

by architek 2008-04-12 02:10PM | 0 recs
It's a trap suckers!

And now Obama has made Clinton & McCain prove that they are out of touch rich-people by having them claim the working class is happy despite decades of economic suffering due to government policies they both support!

What a couple of maroons.

Of course workers are bitter.

My grandfather worked much of his life in a steel mill and when they shut it down and the town around it was allowed to die a slow painful death he and the other workers were very bitter at the government, at foreigners, at whoever they could blame.

My grandfather would have laughed at Clinton & McCain just like Obama did.

Suckers.

by RLMcCauley 2008-04-12 05:50AM | 0 recs
Reaction to Obama's gaffe

The press takes it to Obama good:

http://www.youtube.com/v/4G8dRMofHNs& ;hl=en

/s

by bookish 2008-04-12 06:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Reaction to Obama's gaffe

Gloria Borger:

The Hillary Clinton campaign and the John McCain campaign have the same goal...

by bookish 2008-04-12 06:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Reaction to Obama's gaffe
Thanks for the link..I saw it somewhere.
All three panelists point out the Obvious regarding Clinton.  I Like the way ya kinda snuck it in..
Hillary folks we be all over it before realizing
what is going on...
by nogo war 2008-04-12 06:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Reaction to Obama's gaffe

I can see that it worked at least once, so my work is done.

by bookish 2008-04-12 08:23AM | 0 recs
That totally off-the-wall,

disgustingly biased commentary by Toobin, Bolger, and Cafferty are not going to Obama a lick of good. Instead it's only going to do those closet Clinton-haters some real harm in their already sagging reputations.

Their remarks are so completely off-target, and, more importantly, so far removed from what will become the accepted significance of Obama's comment, that they will get nothing but harsh criticism in the end.

They really should all be fired for their irresponsible, and, here, fully exposed bias and hatred.

by frankly0 2008-04-12 06:53AM | 0 recs
Re: That totally off-the-wall,

You can come kiss my ring when Obama is president.

by bookish 2008-04-12 03:27PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?
I don't troll rate anyone...just the way I am..
But hey that post above by Tennessean would get one if I did...
tap yer toes...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFxXoHkIw Mk
by nogo war 2008-04-12 06:11AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

So Hillary is saying that they have lost their Jobs, have been lied to by politicians and that is Just fine. The pray and the get Bush, they stroke their Guns because can get them a job and they dislike outsiders because thet are simply happy and resilient.

I get it - her supporters are talking pandering nonsense because they want the Rove base to like them. How utterly pathetic and futile.

by dbeall 2008-04-12 06:41AM | 0 recs
Not sure why this is controversial

Because, of course, every word he said was true.

by amiches 2008-04-12 06:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Not sure why this is controversial

Breaking down DC BS in this manner is not acceptable.

You must say "wedge issue" or "single-issue" voter and all Americans are happy.

It's not the Rust Belt it's the Rainbow and Bunnies Belt.

by RLMcCauley 2008-04-12 07:14AM | 0 recs
TOTALLY OUT OF TOUCH!!!

   OBAMA: So, it depends on where you are, but I think it's fair to say that the places where we are going to have to do the most work are the places where people are most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre...they're misunderstanding why the demographics in our, in this contest have broken out as they are. Because everybody just ascribes it to `white working-class don't wanna work -- don't wanna vote for the black guy.' That's...there were intimations of that in an article in the Sunday New York Times today - kind of implies that it's sort of a race thing.

   Here's how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long. They feel so betrayed by government that when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn't buy it. And when it's delivered by -- it's true that when it's delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama, then that adds another layer of skepticism.

   But -- so the questions you're most likely to get about me, `Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What is the concrete thing?' What they wanna hear is so we'll give you talking points about what we're proposing -- to close tax loopholes, uh you know uh roll back the tax cuts for the top 1%, Obama's gonna give tax breaks to uh middle-class folks and we're gonna provide healthcare for every American.

   But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

   Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you'll find is, is that people of every background -- there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you'll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I'd be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you're doing what you're doing.

by RLMcCauley 2008-04-12 07:00AM | 0 recs
No, Br'er fox, don't throw me in the briar patch

Yeah, I think he's gonna be fine.

by fwiffo2 2008-04-12 07:00AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

"I go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, no matter how much I spend or puff or lie, or how sexy I look, I can't get those damn rubes and rednecks who are ruining the democratic party to vote for me. So it's not surprising then that I get bitter, and I cling to my affluent Harvard-educated elitist condescending views of these voters as gun-toting boors or religious fanatics or racist bigots as a way to explain my frustrations about not getting those votes away from that lying bitch."

by oh puhleeze 2008-04-12 07:08AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I find this diary a little ironic...

Someone who consistently complains that the media is telling people how to vote (i.e. "don't vote for Hillary") is using the media to tell us rural midwesterners how to feel about comments that were taken out of context.

Do I trust the media now or not?  Do I vote for Obama because the media is telling me to or do I feel insulted because the media is telling me I am.

Ugh...my head is spinning. I'll just trust what Grover Norquist says on the subject.  Afterall, that's who we Democrats look to for talking points, right?

by asherrem 2008-04-12 07:21AM | 0 recs
Completely clueless

I just read his lame explanation to his comment, the man is clueless. If he did not dig a hole for himself by making the comment at "billionaire's row" in SF he made a bigger hole for himself by failing to recognize that to many many people all across America, religion and hunting sports are an integral part of their lives. To somehow say that is part of their abnormal psychology is wrong. This will bite him big time. Like I said once before he first pandered to gun owners in PA and then the very same week he went to SF and told the liberal elites that these same people he was pandering to is basically clinging to their guns as a psychological refuge. Seriously this man is clueless about common conservative democrats and Reagan democrats.

by tarheel74 2008-04-12 07:24AM | 0 recs
You coulda saved a lot of typing

Your message would have come through just the same if you had simply omitted all the words between the title and your signature.

by Quicklund 2008-04-12 07:41AM | 0 recs
Ironic Title

Don't YOU get it?  The fact Sen Obama does not pander is one f the reasons for his success.  

America has chosen her Democratic candidate.  That is why the Wright nonsense slid off Sen Obama's back.  That is why this flap-a-doodle-doo is not merely sliding off his back; he has turned it around into an effective attack on Sen McCain and Sen Clinton. In fencing this is called (IIRC) Parry-Riposte.

A touch! I do confess it.  Sen Clinton campaigns her past.

by Quicklund 2008-04-12 07:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Ironic Title

So, not insulting the people in PA and treating them with respect would be pandering?

by Scotch 2008-04-12 08:13AM | 0 recs
Speaking truthfully to voters

is not pandering.

Dealing in a realistic manner with real problems is not pandeing.

People are frustrated with American politics, people do feel Washington DC has let them down.  Pointing to an obvious truth is not pandering.

If it is your opinion our polticians have been doing a great job, if you are eager for America to Stay The Course, by all means you're certainly free to do so.

by Quicklund 2008-04-12 05:57PM | 0 recs
Does He?

Well, if he does manage to convince the super's that he's qualified and should be the nom, we know how he'll campaign against McCain. He's looking forward to a debate on which is the most out of touch? That should bring him a mandate.  

by anna shane 2008-04-12 07:40AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?
I've been wondering. Some diarists are so prodigious, and hey always seem ready with the next attack on the candidate without delay. I mean, they're really on top of it. Has it ever been that some of these folks are working for a campaign? Just wondering.
by mikeinsf 2008-04-12 07:51AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

He needs to recognize that he is not immune to ism's, this one is classicism, or not highly educatedism, to lumping poorer people into stereotypes.  It's what offended us in Gerry's remark, and it offended him too when it was about race, but seemingly not when it's a class issue. He needs to learn that people are individuals and no one appreciates being categorized, in the 'you people' department.  

by anna shane 2008-04-12 07:52AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I agree with you in that classism is a real issue.  However, I think we need to look at this particular remark in some context.

I have lived in rural Wisconsin all my life.  People are bitter, people are frustrated, people are angry, and people are cynical.  Anyone who says they aren't is truly delusional.  But while people can be all "those" things, they can also be hopeful and optimistic.  People are emotional creatures, and emotions, by nature, are not static.

In fact, when people aren't getting what they want out of their government and know they won't anytime soon, they do vote on the issues of "gays and guns."  We hear the promises all the time...we're going to get jobs, we're going to have a better life, and you know...it just doesn't happen.  But hey, if we can keep "the gays" from getting married, by gosh we're going to do it.  This is how Republicans have been getting elected for years.

My question for Hillary supporters who are "outraged" by this comment is, where was the outrage when people like me were referred to as "latte-drinkers?"  I do enjoy a vanilla mocha every now and then, but there is inherent classism in that comment.  

I'm not outraged by Obama's comment.  I live it, and am surrounded by it.  I live next to people who want to change the direction of this country, but for the most part understand its a futile effort.  When they go to the polls its about keeping their guns, getting rid of "the Mexicans," and stopping gay marriage.

Finally, I'd like to add, we've all been placed in categories during this campaign.  I am not in any of Obama's demographics.  By definition I should be a Hillary supporter--the problem is, I don't relate to her.  

On a personal note...Obama had me at "silly name."  Its the phrase that made my ears stand up, so to speak.  I have a "silly" name too.  Its a Hebrew name.  Believe it or not, I have been discriminated against purely because of my name.  Hebrew names (and I'm not talking Sarah or Joseph here) do not fly in rural Wisconsin.  It doesn't fly when one tries to cancel their cable package either.  I'll tell you how that conversation went:

Me: "Hello, I'd like to cancel my cable package and get xyz package."

Guy on the phone: "Your name and account number?"

I give him my name and account number.

GOP:  "Are you Jewish?"

Me: "Umm...uhh....no?"

GOP:  "You have a Jewish name."

Me:  "Ummm...its actually Hebrew."

GOP:  "Well if you have a Hebrew name you must be Jewish."

Me: "Can I just cancel my cable package?"

GOP:  "Where is your family from?"

Me:  "Wow...ok, they're from Norway...can I cancel my cable package now?"

GOP:  "Then how did you get a Jewish name?"

Me:  Click.

Its not the reason I support Obama, but its certainly what got me interested in him.

by asherrem 2008-04-12 08:39AM | 0 recs
if someone in wisconsin

wants to say they're bitter and they take solace in religion, guns, and prejudicial fears, then I would not complain.  I find it unlikely that many would make such claims, but it you're talking about yourself, why not. obama lumped poor struggling small town people into one bag: bitter, which explains gun owning, religion and prejudice. I know rich people who have guns and go to church and have prejudices.  I'm sure plenty of poor gun owners like to hunt and didn't run out and get guns cause they felt bitter. the point is he's made a class statement that is also a real put-down, and if you agree, it should be just about yourself, you also have no right to characterize your neighbors guns, religion and 'prejudices' as related to their bitterness. I suppose he thinks when they get rich they'll agree with his cultural values, throw away their guns, stop making religion an important part of their lives, and give up prejudices? Since he hasn't given up his own prejudices, I'd think he might understand prejudice isn't linked to income.  

by anna shane 2008-04-12 03:28PM | 0 recs
Re: if someone in wisconsin

I don't take solace in guns (I've never owned or shot one), religion (I've never practiced one), or prejudicial fears (I grew up in a multi-ethnic family, so that would be counterproductive), and I know that that wasn't what Obama was getting at.

Why is "bitter" such a bad word?  No one in rural America has anything to be bitter about?  He also said they were frustrated.  Is being frustrated a bad thing?  Are either of these emotions character flaws?

I don't (and didn't) characterize any of my neighbors as anything.  I do know what I hear when I work the polls, and when I canvass the neighborhood, and when I read my newspaper.  I have been politically active for years.  I grew up here, I know these people.  They aren't bad people, and Obama wasn't saying they are.  When you have no faith left in your government...when it doesn't really matter who you vote into office because either way you're getting screwed, what are you going to vote for?  Gays and guns.

So yeah, I do agree with what he said.  I live in a small midwestern town and I wasn't offended.  I didn't see his comment as classism or prejudicial.  And I do find it ironic you would tell me not to speak to "the midwestern small-town perspective" in reference to a diary telling me I should be outraged and insulted.  Is someone who doesn't live here better qualified to explain why we vote the way we do?

by asherrem 2008-04-12 06:17PM | 0 recs
Re: if someone in wisconsin

So, the remark doesn't apply to you. No wonder you're not offended by it. You (by your own definition) are not a member of the class that would be offended.

Perhaps if you were a gun-owning, church-going small-midwestern-town-living person you would be offended. But that is not you. You don't own guns and you don't go to church. You are not the person to whom Obama was referring.

So, what in the world are you talking about? How do you profess to speak for these people?

by NJ Liberal 2008-04-12 06:56PM | 0 recs
Re: if someone in wisconsin

Wow...ok.

I am a member of "that" class.  

We currently have a family income of roughly $50,000 a year--not dirt poor, but pretty close.  My husband is a blue collar worker--a machine operator for ConAgra Foods, and a member of the Teamsters Union.

I grew up in a trailer.  One neighbor had a meth lab in her trailer and the other grew and sold pot out of hers.  The majority however, were very nice people.  We lived off of my father's social security disability payments.  

I graduated with 53 other people.  Most of them lived on farms and drove their tractors to school until they got their driver's licenses.  Our idea of a good time was finding a field to get drunk in--there wasn't anything else to do.

I had twins when I was 19 and dropped out of college.  I married my husband when I was 20 and he was 24 (he spent 4 years in the Army and 4 in the reserves).  We survived on minimum wage jobs with no health insurance until 5 years ago.

I was baptised Methodist and forced to go to church.  When I became of age, I chose not to continue going.  We did not own guns.  My father is a paranoid schizophrenic...so you don't really want them hanging around.

My younger sister is half-Mexican.  We grew up in a town where she was the only person of color.  My mother had an affair while my father was doing a stint in the Vet's hospital (Vietnam).

So...am I lower class and rural enough to know how I grew up, the people who live around me, and how I live today? Do I now have your permission to speak for "these" people?  

ALL of the above are reasons I am a Democrat.  A poor, small-town, midwestern Democrat.  If you believe gays, guns, religion, and Mexicans are issues people in my area don't vote for, I'd be more than happy to host you in my home for a week to experience what its like to live on this side of the tracks, sincerely.

by asherrem 2008-04-12 07:29PM | 0 recs
no, he lost today

the point is that no one has the right to speak about the motives or the choices of anyone else. That's why Gerry got into hot water for claiming some voters are motivated by race, even though she was referring to positive racial motivations, and why John Kerry wasn't allowed to make Dick Cheney's daughter into a representative of lesbians we know and love, it shows a kind of cluelessness, that you have the right to characterize anyone. You have the right to talk about your own motivations, but not anyone else's.  It's rude, and tacky and in the case of Obama rather cruel and certainly unempathic, to come up with a negative explanation for personal opinions, values and choices they may or may not have.  

by anna shane 2008-04-13 11:36AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

And it is interesting that he was saying this in California at a private fund raiser.  I mean it is almost as though he was telling about a trip to the zoo where the residents were a curiosity and not like him, or the people he was talking to.  Educating the ignorant about them small towners with their guns, and religious clingings, and bitterness toward them other people taking their jobs.

by Scotch 2008-04-12 08:11AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I also don't understand how he could bring up clinging to religion when so many people are still questioning his clinging to his particular form of religion for 20 years despite the bitterness of the views in his church.  I mean, God Damn America isn't bitter?  The speaker of this line had a job, which apparently he liked and valued.  So why was he bitter?

by Scotch 2008-04-12 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

All of the attempts to excuse Obama's remarks just fail to come to grips with what he said.

Basically, he described some of the most basic values held dear by people in Small Town America as being essentially crutches, as, effectively, delusional and negative beliefs that they turn to in a desperate bitterness.

If you look down the list of things that Obama uses as examples of these values, it's clear that every one of them Obama is holding in real disdain. It is their negativity and delusional qualities that unifies them as examples.

I don't see how Obama ever fully recovers from his clinging-to-guns-religion-and-racism remark. No matter what, the condescension of the comment will stick to him forever as part of his image. It's meaning is simply too clear and inescapable.

by frankly0 2008-04-12 08:38AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

53% of Americans believe the world was created precisely as described im Geneis.
As good jobs are being destroyed many people obsess about Guns.
The President attacks Iraq because God told him to.
We might yet get a Mormon President (read the book of Mormon - it's provable fiction)

Yes there are many delsuional People.
Face it, deal with it and grow (up)

by dbeall 2008-04-12 01:45PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Reszko!! Reszko!! Reszko!! Reszko!!

nobody cares, Obama rises steadily in polls

Scary black preacher man!! Scary black preacher man!! Scary black preacher man!! Scary black preacher man!!

nobody cares, candidates essentially tied, HRC's negatives go up

Elitist!! Elitist!! Elitist!! Elitist!!

and it's one, two, three strikes you're out
at the old ball game....

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-12 08:43AM | 0 recs
Hillary gets it!

So does McCain, from cnn:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4G8dRMofHNs&amp;hl=en"&gt;&lt;/param&gt&lt;param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4G8dRMofHNs&amp;hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

by Quarterbackjoe 2008-04-12 08:47AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Dear Ms. Alegre,

I was raised on a hog and grain farm in one of the reddest counties in rural Minnesota.  Spent every Sunday morning in church.  If anyone voted Democrat in my extended family, they sure weren't going to admit it.

I have a small family farm now.  We raise beef cattle, hogs, and have an apple orchard.  I'm not a member of a church currently, but I do have a 12 gauge in the utility room closet.  

I am one of the rural people that is supposed to feel condescended to by Obama's remarks.  I don't.

I feel condescended to by folks like you who like to somehow divine how rural and small town dwellers and blue-collar workers are supposed to react to Obama's words.  

I admit that he could have phrased it differently, but what I heard was a man speaking the truth.  That for too long, my people have voted against our own economic interests and have been distracted by the true elites of this country who have used  Karl Rove's guns, gays, and god wedge issues to cloud the fact that they have been ripping us off with their free trade, industrial agriculture tilted farm bills, and phony estate tax arguments.

Well, I've got news for you.  Some of us hicks can read between the lines.  I know what Obama was trying to say, and even though he probably doesn't know the difference between an Allis or an Oliver or an Angus or a Hereford, I trust him much more than McCain or Clinton to look out for my interests.

I will gladly vote for Clinton in the unlikely event that she somehow captures the nomination.  But she lost my support in the primary season when she appointed Joy Philipi, the former head of the National Pork Producers Council to serve as her rural campaign chair.  The NPPC is a horrible industry organization that has done everything in their power to crush independent hog farmers like myself and to force polluting hog factory farms on rural communities.  I won't even bring up Clinton's other ties to the industrial meat industry.

If she would have talked to family farmers in Iowa during all those months she campaigned their, she would have "got it".

So don't tell me that Clinton "gets it".  It is an absolute farce when some of the urbanites on this board pretend that they understand what is going on out here in the hinterland.

By the way, my 93 year old grandmother who still lives on the farm she and my grandfather bought in 1934 has voted Republican every year since 1936.  

She's voting for Obama this year.  Maybe I'm missing something, but I think she has the life experience to be able to tell who really has disdain for us small town folks.

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-04-12 09:09AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Very eloquent.

Thank you for saying what I was trying to get at.  Obama was speaking up for us not down to us.

by asherrem 2008-04-12 09:35AM | 0 recs
You should write Hillary a letter telling her this

Hillary is very supportive of IAQ issues, and those huge hog farms produce massive amounts of H2S which is HIGHLY toxic..

Write her...  This is an important issue. I guarantee you that she will understand if you frame it that way..

Ive driven by those places, they make me very sick..

by architek 2008-04-12 02:28PM | 0 recs
Re: You should write Hillary a letter

You are engaging some long-held cynicism among rural folks. We;have known the the Clintons as the enablers of the corporate farm takeover of the rural landscape, dating back to the day the Arkansas chicken factories sponsored Bill's rise.  They are the big donors, they have the big lobbyists.

If someone were to send a letter to Hil on this, wouldn't it be processed through her chief advisor on such issues, the arch enemy of everything small scale and humane regarding rural America?

What would be the point?

by wrb 2008-04-12 03:19PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

excellent post.

Vey much what I hear in my rural area

by wrb 2008-04-12 11:09AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

This is the kind of unreasoning screed that I long associated with MyDD.  His remarks are taken out of context and parlayed into a new cycle for Hillary, with MARK PENN's micro-target, divide and conquer greasy human-rights abusing fingerprints all over it.

What you don't get is that Senator Obama is the only one of the three candidates that IS NOT running for the corporate nation- the business interests that are taking over our government, destabilizing foreign governments for profits, and raping our nation and our Constitution.

Your candidate is a plant in this party for corporate ooze, and its sad to see good Democrats being manipulated by body parts and MARK PENN into voting against their own and their children's interests.

Sad to read your posts Allegre.  You're becoming a shill for corporate greed and Mark Penn tactics, too. and you don't see it.

by URKnot 2008-04-12 09:09AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I totally agree we should look at what BO said in context.  Context is very important. Like we have to take what Rev Wright said in context.  Just like we have to see what MO said about being proud of americna for the first time in her life in context.  I am really glad to read we all agree that we need to see what our candidates say in CONTEXT.

Just like what HRC said about Bosnia.  Just like what HRC said about LBJ.  Just like what HRC said about the pregnant women and the hospital.  Just like what Ferraro said i mean we have to look at these things in context.

I am really glad that suddenly BO and his supporters think context is sooo important.  Funny because it seems to me the only time we are told about context is when talking about what BO says or his crowd or his Rev or his friends.  HRC on the other hand has her every word parsed so as to attack her by the BO campaign.

It is not about context it is about the hypocrisy of BO and his campaign that think there are special rules for BO than everyone one else.

david

by giusd 2008-04-12 09:40AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I totally agree we should look at what BO said in context.  Context is very important. Like we have to take what Rev Wright said in context.  Just like we have to see what MO said about being proud of americna for the first time in her life in context.  I am really glad to read we all agree that we need to see what our candidates say in CONTEXT.

Just like what HRC said about Bosnia.  Just like what HRC said about LBJ.  Just like what HRC said about the pregnant women and the hospital.  Just like what Ferraro said i mean we have to look at these things in context.

Exactly.

I am really glad that suddenly BO and his supporters think context is sooo important.  Funny because it seems to me the only time we are told about context is when talking about what BO says or his crowd or his Rev or his friends.  HRC on the other hand has her every word parsed so as to attack her by the BO campaign.

It is not just Hillary who has every word parsed so as to attack her.  It goes on on both sides.  If it didn't, we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

It is not about context it is about the hypocrisy of BO and his campaign that think there are special rules for BO than everyone one else.

Since when?  From what I can tell, its all about tit for tat bullshit...on both sides.

by asherrem 2008-04-12 12:02PM | 0 recs
Did Obama say

"rube Iowa" or "rural Iowa?!"  Somebody please show me a transcript of this because he better not have said the former.

by izarradar 2008-04-12 09:42AM | 0 recs
Why should he apologize?

If that's the way he actually feels, then why should he have to say he's sorry?  I'm from PA and I can tell you that his comments aren't just from some "elitist" lookin' down on the po' folk.  I'll continue to say that he's speaking a truth that people aren't prepared to hear.  They don't want to hear that the little people are pissed off, b/c they're getting the shaft.  Instead, they want him to apologize.  Let's sweep it back under the rug.  They're not supposed to bitter, they're Americans.

by venavena 2008-04-12 09:51AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really

I am sorry but he didnt just say the little people are pissed off, b/c they're getting the shaft" he said they were bitter and due to this bitterness they turn to guns and god!!!!!!!

Do you know what this reminds me of?  Dukakis in the tank wearing the tank helmet in 1988.  He just looked stupid and played into the narrative that he was weak on defensive and riding in a tank would change how he is viewed.

BO, weather you like it or not, is seen by a lot of Reagan democracts as an northern liberal elisist. You can disagree with their opinion but the fact is these voters are entitled to their own opinion.  But just like Dukakis the last thing BO should do is make this narrative worse by getting caught saying something pretty condesending to working class and middle american voters.  That is must stupid.

And by not apologizing and admitting his mistake he is making this ever worse.  That is BO is to elitist to admit a mistake.  

david

by giusd 2008-04-12 10:07AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really

Saying that "they're pissed off b/c they're getting the shaft" and being bitter is the same thing.  

BTW, you only apologize if you're sorry for what you said.  Apparently, he isn't.  He could come out and do something like, "I'm sorry if my comment offended anyone, but I still stand by my opinion."  However, it wouldn't be sincere to come out and apologize for something he's not sorry he said.  That would be even worse, he'd just be trying to salvage votes.

by venavena 2008-04-12 10:18AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really

I am sorry i dont want to be difficult but he didnt just say pissed or bitter he said because of the they turn to guns and god.  Dont you see that is the real issue.  He insulted the views of working class voters on guns and god.

If BO really thinks this he should quite now and prevent the a democratic lose in Nov.

david

by giusd 2008-04-12 10:52AM | 0 recs
Quote of the day:
"The remarks touched off a torrent of criticism from Mrs. Clinton, Mr. McCain and a string of Republican activists and party officials". Pretty much says it all right there.
by mikeinsf 2008-04-12 10:20AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Hillary is a Goddess. Obama is a fucking piece of shit. Did I get that right?

by SeanF 2008-04-12 10:34AM | 0 recs
Dems who don't get it usually get crushed in Nov.

http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/1519 0

Great diary, alegre.

I hope you don't mind the link to a diary that points out the historic consequences of running a Dem who is perceived as intellectual, snobbish, and (in some cases) even "effete".

by Clarkin08 2008-04-12 10:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Dems

Great post but such historical records are lost on this new crowd of BO supporters.  They have a new model that will change the founding fathers idea of the importance of the electoral college.  BO is going to change the electoral map forever.

I liberal northern senator has not won the WH since 1960 and JFK doesnt win without LBJ on the ticket and he, much like bill and Hillary clinton, were icons in middle america.

Somehow i think the electoral map will be here a lot longer than BO.

david

by giusd 2008-04-12 10:48AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Obama's comments here were right on.  People are bitter because they've been given the shaft for years.

by chinapaulo 2008-04-12 11:14AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

The thing is BO didnt just say "People are bitter because they've been given the shaft".  He said this pushes them to cling to guns and god and engage in anti-immigrant feelings!!!  He directly insulting working classs voters because this consider embracing guns and god in hard times.

Do you not see the difference.  Going around parsing and omitting what BO said will not help him.  This is everywhere and will be the primary story going into the PA primary in 11 days.

david

by giusd 2008-04-12 11:43AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Barack Obama a snob who thinks anyone who doesn't support him is a racist.

Did you catch Barack complaining about the high cost of arugala at Whole Foods Markets? LOL! Oh yeah, he sure understands the working class.

I am sick and tired of the Democratic establishment acting as though Hillary Clinton is not a serious candidate, while supporting a man who is an arrogant elitist with a sense of entitlement based on very, very little experience.  

How anybody who sat through twenty years of Jeremiah Wright's bigotry could criticize other people for "clinging to religion" and being "bitter" is beyond me.

Attention Howard Dean: It's Hillary, or we lost to McCain in November. It is now obvious.

by cc 2008-04-12 11:34AM | 0 recs
Happy Talk Hillary

As I travel around Pennsylvania , I meet people who are resilient, who are optimistic, who are positive, who are rolling up their sleeves. They are working hard everyday for a better future, for themselves and their children.

Shorter Hillary: Pennsylvanians are happy to be un- and under-employed, and I'll keep them that way!

by Drew 2008-04-12 11:57AM | 0 recs
Oh the irony.

Sorry alegre - you're the poor soul who doesn't "get it"

I'd argue with you but there's just no point.  You made up your firmly closed and hypocritical mind long ago.

I'm just sad to see trash like this diary continually making the rec list on this site.

Sad.

by toom 2008-04-12 12:25PM | 0 recs
by obsessed 2008-04-12 01:06PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Actually... the media doesn't get it.  They keep framing this as Obama being attacked for saying voters are "bitter."  I guess that's considered 'not quite damned by faint criticism'  

It wasn't the bitter thing.. it was that he and his campaign (Axelrove) are OBSESSED with making Hillary's supporters, and average Americans, into Archie Bunkers.  They freak out over perpetuating stereotypes, yet they have been the most guilty of it in this primary race.

The thing that really stinks about his comments, is that they were made to a group of wealthy uber-liberals in Marin County, California. I can just imagine the tsk tsk-ing that went throughout the room, as though the unspoken "these small town people are racists" comments came out.

And...  as a Democrat, how could I ever consider a candidate that trashes a Democratic president just to get elected?  

by Catriley sez 2008-04-12 01:17PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

WORD,

Bo and his elitist crowd in Marion county where the average home is two million and BO tells them about working class voters.  What did they hear "it is really sad these working class voters dont understand why they should be voting with us".  I guess they are just not smart enough to vote democrat.

Really sad.

david

by giusd 2008-04-12 01:22PM | 0 recs
Blaming Clinton Admin

Obama needs to study up on his history. He constantly and continually bashes the Clinton administration and no one ever calls him on it.

For anyone interested in remembering how bad and horrible the Clinton years were, my friend ms in la put this data together:


All data from the US DEPT OF LABOR - Bureau of Labor Statistics:

http://www.bls.gov/home.htm

The graphs of the 90's economic data are dramatic and telling, but the links and images all seem too buggy and don't travel well ... so this info gathered below is extracted directly from the raw data at the site, and filed here "for the record". In case anyone needs to use it in those blog arguments about the icky horrible rotten depressing 90's economy - specifically the midwestern manufacturing sector which has been so devastated during the Bush years. But NOT during the Clinton years-- contrary to what has been alleged by certain presidential candidates and supporters ...

You can search the site yourself, but it's not easily navigable to find the specific states' info. They make it hard to locate and retrieve the detailed reports for some reason. But with patience you can find those graphs and charts yourself - the visual has a much more stronger impact.

----------------

NATIONAL STATISTICS:

----------------

UNEMPLOYMENT

In 1999 the overall Unemployment Rate nationally was around 4%.

By 2003, during the Bush administration, the national Unemployment Rate had risen by 50% to approx 6%

NATIONAL MANUFACTURING JOB STATS 1992 to 2008:

Depending on the difference between the MANUFACTURING of durable vs non-durable goods- anywhere from 2 to 3 million manufacturing jobs have been LOST in the nation since 1992

Conversely, during the Clinton administration, nearly 1 million NEW manufacturing jobs were ADDED in the nation between 1992 and 2000.

Subsequently, from 2000 to 2008, during the Bush administration, there were approximately 2,250,000 manufacturing jobs LOST nationally.

GRAPH

--------------

"RUST BELT" ECONOMIC STATS 1990's - 2008

-------------

PENNSYLVANIA- MANUFACTURING JOBS - 1992 to present:

In the period from 1992 to 2000, during the Clinton Administration, Pennsylvania manufacturing jobs were consistently at or just under 900,000. This figure holds steady through the period with no significant dips or peaks.

Just after 2000, a huge descent begins and continues throughout the Bush administration to 2008 in a steep decline - Around 300,000 manufacturing jobs in Pennsylvania were lost during the Bush Administration thus far.

Sharpest declines occur between 2001 to 2004. By the end of 2001 over 200,000 manufacturing jobs have gone from Pennsylvania from the early 1990's numbers. The lowest numbers of manufacturing jobs in PA are found in the year 2008.

PENNSYLVANIA EMPLOYMENT DATA

In 1998- the number of employed persons in PA is approximately 220,000 higher than it was in 1992.

In the same time frame the Unemployment Rate in PA went from 7.6% in 1992 down to 4.6% in 1998, or a 40% drop

By 1999- Employment in PENNSYLVANIA was at 62% and the Unemployment Rate was lower still at 4.4%

By 2002 Pennsylvania's Unemployment Rate was up to 5.7%

------------------

OHIO EMPLOYMENT DATA

When Clinton took office, there were 5,000,000 employed persons on the rolls in Ohio. (16 yrs and older)

Each successive year through to 1998 (these stats offer only 92-98) approx 100,000 new people were added to the employed list
(*exceptions: 1996 only added about 50,000 and 1998 numbers held steady from previous year)

By 1998- at @ 5,400,000-- there were approximately 350,000- 400,000 more employed in Ohio than there were in 1992.

In the same period (1992-1998) the Unemployment Rate in OHIO went from 7.3% down to 4.3% - a decline of 42%.

In 1999 OHIO Employment was at 64% and the Unemployment Rate still at a low 4.3%.

By 2002 however,like PA, OHIO's Unemployment Rate had climbed to 5.7%

In 2003 the Unemployment Rate was higher yet at 6.1%

--------

INDIANA EMPLOYMENT DATA

1998 shows @350,000 more employed persons, 16 yrs and older, in INDIANA than there were in 1992.

The Unemployment Rate declined in the same period from 6.6% to 3.1% -- representing about a 54% drop.

In 1999- INDIANA had 66% employment and the Unemployment Rate was at a low 3%

By 2002, during the Bush Administration, the Unemployment had already climbed to 5.6%

--------------

MICHIGAN EMPLOYMENT DATA

1998 shows @600,000 more "employed" persons in MICHIGAN than there had been in 1992.

The UNEMPLOYMENT RATE declined from 7.7% to 3.3% in the same 6 yr period - a 58% decline.

In 1999 MICH, like INDIANA, saw 66% employment.

In 2002 the Unemployment Rate spikes from the earlier 3% up to 6.2% - over 100% higher.

In 2003 Unemployment rate is higher still at 7.3%

In 2007 the Unemployment rate is hovering around 7.1%

--------------

SUMMARY: No-- the Clinton years do NOT represent the decline of jobs in the American labor force, or the loss of manufacturing jobs or general midwestern 'Rust Belt' jobs in America. Anyone who maintains otherwise is propagating more 1990's revisionist mythology and telling Fairy Tales...

h/t ms in la

by jen 2008-04-12 02:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Blaming Clinton Admin

I dont think you make the most important point.  BO and his campaign have to demean and insult Bill Clinton's presidency as an indirect means to smear HRC.  They do this all the time.  BO wants to insult and demean Bill Clinton because HE wants to be the head of the dems and he will say or do anything to do this.

david

by giusd 2008-04-12 02:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Blaming Clinton Admin

Employment numbers are not everything. The massive redistribution of wealthy individuals continued during the Clinton years and his welfare room policy removed a key part of the safety net for the working poor.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-13 10:10AM | 0 recs
I full throatedly support Senator Clinton's right

and obligation to her supporters to stay in the race for the nomination, and I think calls for her to drop out are undemocratic and self-defeating.

But the Clinton campaign must stop this race to the bottom. Senator Obama's campaign has been guilty of engaging in meaningless, "narrative politics", essentially marketing efforts, but the Clinton supporter's recent penchant for torturing meaning from fundamentally harmless words is not good for our party.

This marketing politics is what the Republicans have used to so well since 1980, and it doesn't work for the Left. It never will, because the Right is the status quo, and so controls all the existing institutions of power and communication.

When Democrats engage in it against each other, it just legitimizes it.

Obama supporters need to stop this needless hectoring for Clinton to drop out, but Clinton supporters have a bigger charge, to stop this asinine and ultimately self-defeating "media narrative" politics that tries to make issues out of the definition of words, over the substance of thought.

Do you believe Senator Obama disdains the average Americans? If you don't believe that, then you are being intellectually dishonest when you say this will "hurt him" with the average voter, because you assume the "average voter" is dumber than you.

That is elitism.

The Left is supposed to be the side of reason--remember, "reality based community"? If we stop being intellectually honest--and both sides are guilty of this, but to differing degrees--then we can't pretend we are the "reality based community."

To borrow a phrase, we'd just be an echo, not a choice.

by chicagolife 2008-04-12 04:06PM | 0 recs
You don't get it

If you'd ever been to PA - and I mean actually been to PA beyond Pittsburgh, Philly, Scranton, Harrisburg, etc. - and had gone to the little towns and cities that have never, ever recovered from the collapse of steel, you'd know exactly what he was talking about.

But you don't know what you're talking about.  You know nothing of Pennsylvania.  You don't understand the culture in certain parts of the state.

You're a cheap shot artist.

by jaywillie 2008-04-12 06:02PM | 0 recs
Another $20 for Obama

My response to this diary is to send another twenty bucks to Barack Obama.

You guys are gonna make me broke.

by fwiffo2 2008-04-12 06:26PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Sure he gets it.  I'm a Clinton supporter and I can see that his comments are grounded in reality.  More importantly, his follow-up comments are an incisive analysis of how working-class, rural voters have been screwed.  Hitting Clinton on the credit card bill is totally appropriate.

Wishful thinking if you think this is going to matter to any signficant number of voters.

by Thaddeus 2008-04-12 07:17PM | 0 recs
Obama's interview with Charlie Rose in 2004

The Clinton campaign is mischarterizing Obama's opinion on the subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a88wMPAWc 90

by moffcz 2008-04-13 01:25AM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

I "cling to" my religion out of my faith in God...but SNOBama wouldn't understand!!

by JoeySky18 2008-04-13 12:13PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

This reads like a soap commercial. Doesn't the GOP boogie man shtick ever feel a little lack luster. It's boo berry scary.

by fisheye 2008-04-13 02:03PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

Can you hide rate a diary or a poster?  Why are these people tolerated on a progressive blog?

Do you HRC supporters realize you sound EXACTLY like right-wingers?

You have become the enemy... look in the mirror

by CaptMorgan 2008-04-13 07:24PM | 0 recs
It's not progressive to diss the working class

It's not PROGRESSIVE to diss the working class - if someone objects to that, it means they are a GOOD DEMOCRAT (at least, that's what we all thought the party stood for, equality for all)

You want to hide a diary reporting facts - direct quotes from individuals in a campaign contest?

What a sad day when the left calls people "the enemy" merely because they report FACTS or because they think for themselves.  

I thought the right was the side where power was all that mattered, not PEOPLE.  The side that never admitted they were wrong.  The side with the "enemy" talk.

I thought the left was supposed to encourage THINKING and DISCUSSION.

And standing up for PEOPLE and EQUALITY.

And even if we go by such hard and fast rules as either with you or against you, are you not a Democrat?  Are we "enemies" to object to a candidate dissing DEMOCRAT Bill Clinton's presidency (and last time I checked, Bill Clinton was the only DEMOCRAT to get elected president in a 28 year period))?

"We" are supposed to be HONEST, FREE THINKERS.  If we are not that, then what distinguishes us from "them"?

Talk like that is what is driving Democrats to become Independents.

So my advice is, listen to YOURSELF!

by Larissa 2008-04-13 08:11PM | 0 recs
Re: He Really Doesn't Get It - Does He?

No, he doesn't get it.  Never did.  Doesn't now.  Maybe some day will see the light - all the more reason he shouldn't have run.

And him dissing Bill Clinton's 8 years of peace and prosperity (after praising Ronald Reagan) is beyond wrong, on so many levels.

The anti-working class, anti-women, anti-the only Democrat in 28 years to get elected president (AKA BillClinton) remarks  all show how it's a big mistake to push an unvetted, inexperienced guy.

This is NOT going to fly in the general election.

by Larissa 2008-04-13 07:52PM | 0 recs

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