From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Remember Obama's soaring rhetoric, when he was going to go to the White House and change how things are done here in DC?  When he talked of how he was going to bang some heads together and "force" folks to work together from each side of that aisle?  We've heard it all before and the candidates who talk this line from our party usually lose - and they lose big.

Could it be that along the way that sheepskin fell off and voters discovered the wolf underneath?  The wolf who ends up using those same attack-and-accuse tactics of elections gone by.  Well after the last 6 or 7 weeks in PA we've seen just how ugly Obama can get despite his claims that he's leading us in a new direction.  The gloves have come off and baby they won't be put back on before we get to Denver.

There's been a lot written about this topic over the past few days.  Take a look at what Johnathan Weisman had to say over at the Washington Post the day after Hillary's huge win in Pennsylvania...

Obama's Gloves Are Off -- And May Need to Stay Off

Unable once again to score a knockout, Sen. Barack Obama is likely to make his new negative tone even more negative -- with a sharp eye on trying to end the Democratic presidential nomination fight after the May 6 primaries in Indiana and North Carolina.

(Ending it on May 6th?  Dream on boys)

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's victory yesterday in Pennsylvania has only accentuated the quandary that Obama faces: Stay negative and he risks undermining the premise of his candidacy. Stay aloof and he underscores Clinton's argument that he will not be able to beat a "Republican attack machine" sure to greet him this summer.  

snip

Obama himself took up the cudgel after Clinton delivered a victory speech in Philadelphia devoid of attack lines. Without naming Clinton, he suggested in Evansville, Ind., that she is a captive to the oil, pharmaceutical and insurance lobbies, that she "says and does whatever it takes to win the next election," and that she exploits division for political gain.

snip

But the candidate who rocketed to stardom as the embodiment of a new kind of politics -- hopeful, positive and inspiring -- saw his image tarnished in the bruising fight for Pennsylvania.

snip

"It's a real danger for Obama, and if you look at these recent ads, the messages they're delivering in all these conference calls, it's a far cry from last fall," when the theme of hope emerged amid calls for a more negative tone, said Democratic consultant Steve Elmendorf, a Clinton supporter.

Here's what Elmendorf was talking about re that conference call...

Today, the Obama campaign called a conference call with the express purpose of attacking Hillary's character over Bosnia. Obama surrogate Gen. Walter Stewart said the following:

"One of the inherent duties of the president of the United States is to lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier on Memorial Day. Now we can assume, and let's keep in mind that Senator Clinton has said she was under sniper fire, or she joked about, which to me was the cruelest part of all this, she joked about it with Jay Leno. We can make an assumption here that the honored dead within the Tomb of the Unknown was killed by a sniper. Imagine the lack of moral authority she has now to lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier on Memorial Day. I'll say this as a Vietnam veteran, hundreds, we can speculate about how the unknown died. But you go over to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall and will certainty there are hundreds on that wall that died under sniper fire. That's the incident I think in a nutshell."

...So, let's look at moral authority as the essential element of leadership. President George Bush, Sen. Clinton, Sen. McCain have squandered the moral authority of the United States of America and our ability to lead the free people's of the world; and the oppressed peoples of the world towards freedom. Sen. Barack Obama displays the moral authority we need for a change in Washington D.C. [Obama Campaign Conference Call, 4/19/08]

Ok so back to that Washington Post article...

If Obama's image was coarsened in Pennsylvania, the next round of primaries may do it even more damage. But Obama advisers say the campaign is in a far different place than it was last fall. The senator from Illinois is much better known nationally, with an image that will not be easily recast -- either by his opponents or his own tactics.

snip

In recent days, the Obama campaign has flogged Clinton's exaggerations about a long-ago trip to Bosnia, framed comments she made about MoveOn.org activists as her own version of "Bitter-gate, " and accused her of tactics reminiscent of Democratic nemesis Karl Rove. "Senator Clinton has internalized a lot of the strategies and the tactics that have made Washington such a miserable place, where all we do is bicker and all we do is fight," Obama said last weekend.

With Obama clearly favored in North Carolina, even he has called Indiana the "tiebreaker, " a state that adjoins Illinois but where Clinton voters hold sway in the working-class towns in the south. In the two weeks leading up to the Indiana primary, a Democratic strategist familiar with the Obama campaign said aides are likely to turn to the controversies of Bill Clinton's White House years -- Hillary Clinton's trading cattle futures, Whitewater and possibly impeachment.

snip

"There's a reason Sen. Obama and his campaign have ratcheted up their year-long assault on Sen. Clinton's character and ended the Pennsylvania campaign with a flurry of harsh negative attacks," a Clinton campaign memo asserted yesterday. "It's because they know that a loss in Pennsylvania will raise troubling questions about his candidacy and his ability to take on John McCain in the general election."

Hillary's new strategist, Geoff Garin wrote an op ed that ran in yesterday's Washington Post in which he points the double standards where the tone of this campaign goes.  He starts out by talking about the ad they ran in PA, where they point out the challenges that will face our next leader on day one and ask who voters think is best prepared to tackle those challenges.  He then points to an appearance on Meet the Press where Axelrod said Hillary wasn't prepared to bring the necessary changes to DC, and said the Obama campaign had sent out mailers to PA's voters calling Hillary "the master of a broken system." (and this is me here - ignoring the fact that his boss has been in DC since 2005 and is pretty damn cozy with big donors and lobbyists himself).  Take a look...

Fair Is Fair

So let me get this straight.

On the one hand, it's perfectly decent for Obama to argue that only he has the virtue to bring change to Washington and that Clinton lacks the character and the commitment to do so. On the other hand, we are somehow hitting below the belt when we say that Clinton is the candidate best able to withstand the pressures of the presidency and do what's right for the American people, while leaving the decisions about Obama's preparedness to the voters.

Who made up those rules? And who would ever think they are fair?

snip

It's an important distinction. The Obama campaign has chosen from its inception not to treat Clinton with the same respect. In fact, the Obama campaign has made an unprecedented assault on her character -- not her positions, but her character -- saying one thing about raising the tone of political discourse but acting quite differently in its treatment of Clinton.

Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, held a conference call with reporters and called Hillary "one of the most secretive politicians in America today" -- a striking personal charge in the era of Dick Cheney.

Axelrod described Clinton as having "a special interest obsession."

Obama himself has joined the character assault from time to time, saying, for example, that Clinton "doesn't have the sense that things need to change in Washington" -- a patently false and demeaning observation.

Garin then goes on to point to Obama's false claim during the last debate that he only talks about Hillary's gaff re Bosnia when asked.  But that was a bold-faced lie, as noted in this Fact Hub entry AND by the bit above re that horrid comment by a general during one of BO's press conference calls...

Source

Sen. Obama Falsely Claims His Campaign Only Talks About Bosnia When Asked
4/16/2008 9:27:24 PM

Senator Obama just said the only reason his campaign has raised Bosnia was because they were asked about it. That is not the case. The following are some examples of the proactive attacks they have launched:

Obama campaign memo: 'Clinton's fantastic invention of a sniper-raked landing is only one in a growing list of instances in which she has exaggerated her role as first lady.'"'Clinton's fantastic invention of a sniper-raked landing is only one in a growing list of instances in which she has exaggerated her role as first lady, particularly with respect to domestic policy,' a scorching campaign memo said in one of the harshest broadsides to date." [New York Post, 3/27/08]

Obama campaign memo: 'Unfortunately, Clinton's fantastic invention of a sniper-raked landing is only one in a growing list of instances where she has exaggerated her role as First Lady, particularly with respect to domestic policy.' [Obama campaign memo, 3/26/08]

Obama campaign memo: `Senator Clinton's claims about her visit to Tuzla, Bosnia - and the footage disproving her account - have created quite a stir. And with good reason.' Senator Clinton's claims about her visit to Tuzla, Bosnia--and the footage disproving her account--have created quite a stir. And with good reason. As the Associated press wrote yesterday: "What makes Clinton's situation unique--and the Bosnia embellishments so damaging--is the fact that the New York senator has built her candidacy on the illusion of experience. Any attack on her credentials is a potential Achilles heel." [Obama campaign memo, 3/26/08]

Obama campaign memo: 'The claims Senator Clinton makes turn out to be little more than stories.'"The refrain that Senator Clinton 'has the experience to lead on Day One' has been repeated endlessly since she entered the race. On closer inspection, the claims Senator Clinton makes turn out to be little more than stories. With the next primary less than a month away, it's time for Senator Clinton to finally face the 'vetting' she's so fond of discussing. Badly trailing in delegates, votes, and states won, she's going to need more than a new script to win the nomination. But if she wants to regain the trust of the American people, it would be a good place to start." [Obama campaign memo, 3/26/08]

Obama Press Release: `"Misspoke"? Clinton's Prepared Remarks on Bosnia Join Similar Stretches on FMLA, SCHIP, and NAFTA' [Obama Campaign Press Release, 3/24/08]


(Please see above link for links to sourcing - hyperlinks at each date in brackets)

So back to Gerin's op ed...

The bottom line is that one campaign really has engaged in a mean-spirited, unfair character attack on the other candidate -- but it has been Obama's campaign, not ours. You would be hard-pressed to find significant analogues from our candidate, our senior campaign officials or our advertising to the direct personal statements that the Obama campaign has made about Clinton.

The problem is that the Obama campaign holds itself to a different standard than the one to which it holds us -- and sometimes the media do, too.

Hillary Clinton is a strong and determined person, and she will continue to discuss real solutions to America's problems and the need for strong leadership to implement those solutions -- even if she must play by a different set of rules than Barack Obama. But wouldn't it be better if in this campaign what's good for the goose were also good for the gander? After all, in America, fair is supposed to be fair.

Next up - Paul Krugman.  Sigh... I absolutely ADORE this man!!!!  

Self-Inflicted Confusion

A few months ago the Obama campaign was talking about transcendence. Now it's talking about math. "Yes we can" has become "No she can't."

This wasn't the way things were supposed to play out.

snip

Well, now he has an overwhelming money advantage and the support of much of the Democratic establishment -- yet he still can't seem to win over large blocs of Democratic voters, especially among the white working class.

snip

According to many Obama supporters, it's all Hillary's fault. If she hadn't launched all those vile, negative attacks on their hero -- if she had just gone away -- his aura would be intact, and his mission of unifying America still on track.

snip

Let me offer an alternative suggestion: maybe his transformational campaign isn't winning over working-class voters because transformation isn't what they're looking for.

From the beginning, I wondered what Mr. Obama's soaring rhetoric, his talk of a new politics and declarations that "we are the ones we've been waiting for" (waiting for to do what, exactly?) would mean to families troubled by lagging wages, insecure jobs and fear of losing health coverage. The answer, from Ohio and Pennsylvania, seems pretty clear: not much. Mrs. Clinton has been able to stay in the race, against heavy odds, largely because her no-nonsense style, her obvious interest in the wonkish details of policy, resonate with many voters in a way that Mr. Obama's eloquence does not.

Yes, I know that there are lots of policy proposals on the Obama campaign's Web site. But addressing the real concerns of working Americans isn't the campaign's central theme.

Tellingly, the Obama campaign has put far more energy into attacking Mrs. Clinton's health care proposals than it has into promoting the idea of universal coverage.

snip

The question Democrats, both inside and outside the Obama campaign, should be asking themselves is this: now that the magic has dissipated, what is the campaign about?

Good question.  I hate to say it but I'm guessing his answer will be "more of the same" although that really wouldn't make sense because more of the same will still leave him without much of the core of Democratic voters that he's been unable to reach to date.  He's attacked Hillary over her healthcare plan, lied about it and misrepresented his own plan as universal in nature (it's not).

You know if he'd spent as much energy attacking the problems in our health care system as he has in attacking Hillary's plan, he'd be much further along the path toward winning over those Democrats he's been unable to reach thus far.

He also sent out more lies about Hillary to voters in Indiana re NAFTA - something he's been called on over and over again but continues to send out to voters.  Take a look...

Source

Sen. Obama's new Indiana mailer is full of misrepresentations on the candidates' positions.

1.) The mailer falsely claims that Hillary strongly supported NAFTA as First Lady and Senator. This is false - Hillary publicly said NAFTA was flawed as early as 2000:"What happened to NAFTA I think was we inherited an agreement that we didn't get everything we should have got out of it in my opinion. I think the NAFTA agreement was flawed." Former White House adviser David Gergen confirms that Hillary was `extremely unenthusiastic' about NAFTA as First Lady. Watch Video here.

2.) The mailer suggests that Sen. Obama has `always opposed NAFTA.' But in 2004, newspapers reported that Sen. Obama supported NAFTA and wanted to pursue similar agreements.

3.) The mailer hits Hillary for accepting money from lobbyists, but doesn't tell you that Sen. Obama takes money from lobbying firms, state lobbyists, former lobbyists and the spouses of lobbyists. He has accepted $2.8 million from firms that employ federal lobbyists, and ten of his top bundlers have been federal lobbyists.

Prior to his presidential campaign, Sen. Obama accepted contributions from lobbyists and PACs. In his 2004 Senate race, Sen. Obama raised $1.3 million from PACs and $128,000 from lobbyists. As a state senator, over half of Sen. Obama's contributions came from PACs, corporate contributions, or unions.

4.) The mailer attacks Hillary for supporting permanent trade relations with China as a way to enforce fair trade practices, an argument Sen. Obama himself has made.

5.) The Obama mailer also hits Hillary for having support in the business community:

Just last week, Obama was bragging about his support in the business community:

Sen. Obama: 'I'm a big believer in business...That's probably the reason why I got such strong support in the business community in Illinois.' "I'm a big believer in business. I think business create jobs, I think that our economy has to grow in order for everybody to prosper. If we've got a shrinking economy, I don't care how the pie's divided. Sooner or later, we're going to have problems. That's probably the reason why I got such strong support in the business community in Illinois." [Sen. Obama interview with the Pittsburgh Post Gazette Editorial Board, 4/16/08]

Since the beginning of the Pennsylvania primary contest, we've gone from "silly season" to "ugly season" and this is only the beginning of it gang.  As that first Washington Post article pointed out, they could be talking about things that were dragged out, investigated 9 ways to Sunday and proven to be false back in the `90s in some desperate attempt to attack and divert attention away from his own shortcomings.

Maybe that's why he's gone and made big ad buys in all of the upcoming states.

Stay tuned.

Tags: 2008 elections, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Indiana, president (all tags)

Comments

229 Comments

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

His hands aren't clean - far from it.

Enough with the double standards already.

by alegre 2008-04-26 05:04PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Forgot this bit re voters' perceptions re negative campaigning...

http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id= 7269

by alegre 2008-04-26 05:06PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

I saw "facts." and then "hillaryhub" and only registered "oxymoron."

by Capt America 2008-04-26 05:16PM | 0 recs
OK, two can play that game

I saw "facts" and then "Capt America" and only registered "moron."

by KnowVox 2008-04-26 05:21PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

Hmm.  Personal attacks.

brushes shoulders off, then TRs

by Capt America 2008-04-26 05:24PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

How is it not a "personal attack" to trash a progressive Democrat?  You can dish it out, but you can't take it. Hypocrite.

by KnowVox 2008-04-26 05:33PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

I wasn't trashing a "progressive democrat."  I wasn't trashing a specific person at all.

Hillaryhub is a dump for pro-Clinton, anti-Obama propoganda.  Any facts found there are entirely unintentional.

I'm more than happy to go blow-for-blow, but when I get called a moron out of the blue, I tend to react negatively.

by Capt America 2008-04-26 05:38PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

You <b>are</b> trashing a progressive Democrat and her website with absolutely no refutation that the facts contained therein are inaccurate or incorrect.

What if I said "BarackObama.com is a dump for pro-Obama, anti-Clinton propaganda, and any facts found there are entirely unintentional?" That's not trashing Obama?

by KnowVox 2008-04-26 05:47PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

If I used that as my primary source, I'd sure as hell hope you'd call me on it. What a way to write a diary. That's like asking Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, and Karl Rove as sources on the merits/weaknesses of the Republican party. They might have real points to make, but you better damn well believe it's all one-sided.

by ragekage 2008-04-26 05:53PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

Stop being lazy and click the link. The source was MSNBC.

by KnowVox 2008-04-26 05:58PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

Campaign websites are campaign websites.  They're designed to guide viewers to specific conclusions based on the layout and information provided.  That's how propaganda works.

Much worse things have been said about both candidate's sites or the various blogs that slant towards either candidate.

by Capt America 2008-04-26 05:54PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

Ergo, your compulsion to trash the campaign source, which was 100% accurate, was gratituious at best.

by KnowVox 2008-04-26 06:01PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

My "compulsion" to trash it was based on my previous knowledge of the site, as being obviously Clinton-slanted.  Even if it's linking to outside sources, it's only going to be to things that fit their narrative.

Hence, finding anything but good news for Clinton on hillaryhub.com is roughly as likely as finding Shakespearian prose on icanhascheezeburger.com.

by Capt America 2008-04-26 06:14PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

Hence people are going to poke fun at you for spouting off without checking the facts behind a source.

by KnowVox 2008-04-26 06:26PM | 0 recs
Its obvious that Obama has serious problems

with the truth... and no amount of online spin and morketing is going to change that.

However, it is clearly making some firms a lot of money.

by architek 2008-04-26 07:43PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

But that's not what you did, is it?  You put facts and hillaryhub together and came up with oxymoron.  Suppose I put barakobama.com and facts together and say it's an oxymoron?  I mean, duh, of course each campaign site will only link to information positive about their own candidate.  That doesn't make everything from the site an oxymoron.

by Montague 2008-04-26 07:29PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

Okay, officially dude. Pick your battles.

by Lettuce 2008-04-26 08:46PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

out of the blue? you started the personal attacks...you should apologize.

by CalDem 2008-04-26 07:58PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

I saw "facts" and then "Capt America" and only registered "moron."

That's a personal attack. You called him a moron. I quote:

Zero is for comments that are offensive, script-generated, or otherwise content-free and intended solely to abuse other readers.

Of which that comment certainly applies.

by ragekage 2008-04-26 05:44PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

It was a play on words intended to expose Capt. America's practice of not using a single fact to refute the content of website.

by KnowVox 2008-04-26 05:51PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

If you'll grant you didn't mean to personally call him a moron, I'll be happy to un-downrate that post.

by ragekage 2008-04-26 05:53PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

Suit yourself.

by KnowVox 2008-04-26 06:36PM | 0 recs
Get over yourself

by miker2008 2008-04-27 02:15AM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

After your candidate finishes losing the nomination and you have some free time , you can go hang out and with alegre and the 2 of you can take turns tripping over each others' pouty bottom lip while you make voodoo dolls of all of us evil Obama supporters with our clearly immoral habit of seeing reality and pointing it out (and our even more immoral habit of whipping the living shit out of your candidate in the delegate count).  

I am not too worried as I doubt that your dolls will be any more accurate than your perception of reality.

by lockewasright 2008-04-26 06:34PM | 0 recs
In your dreams..

people are wising up..

Your reality distortion field, your echo chamber is disintegrating..

by architek 2008-04-26 07:47PM | 0 recs
Re: In your dreams..

Re: your signature -- Obama never said this would be easy.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:53PM | 0 recs
Re: In your dreams..

Why must so many stick with the silly view that Obama supporters are stupid or have been duped?  How superior must you think yourself to believe that 13 MILLION people are just too stupid to get it.

You might want to bend over, stick your head between your legs, and confirm that, indeed, your shit does stink.  Because the rest of us can smell it from here.

by freedom78 2008-04-26 07:57PM | 0 recs
Re: In your dreams..

Aside from in state with an agrigate total of less than 150 last names, show me polls that indicate the remaining states are going to give the nomination to the sniper target.  

You can't.  As usual your statements are at odds with reality.  

Look your candidate managed to keep ahold of a little under half of the polling advantage that she had in a state with the most favorable demographics you could imagine.  La di freakin' dah.  She netted a paltry 10 delegates and North Carolina stands poised to undo that.  

Tell you what, how about we find a Las Vegas bookie that'll let us each bet an entire paycheck straight up on the nomination race.  I'll take Barack.  You take the McSame surrogate.  What d'ya say?

by lockewasright 2008-04-26 08:12PM | 0 recs
Re: OK, two can play that game

sweet. You need to never say anything negative about KO again.

by lockewasright 2008-04-27 08:28AM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

If you'd bothered to follow the link you'd have seen that the info is completely sourced with ind. into.

by alegre 2008-04-26 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Indeed. MSNBC reported 44% of voters said that both candidates were equally responsible for negative campaigning and 24% said that neither candidate attacked the other unfairly.

by KnowVox 2008-04-26 05:56PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

You forgot to mention the rest of the numbers showing that over 20% thought that only Clinton attacked unfairly, while less than 10% thought the same about Barack.  Why did you leave that out?

by map 2008-04-26 06:00PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

I didn't leave anything out. That's what the link it for.

by KnowVox 2008-04-26 06:05PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

So the article that you linked to didn't leave it out.  You seem to have omitted it from the little world in your head and from the usual collection of half truths that seem to be your M.O..

by lockewasright 2008-04-26 06:41PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

You expect people to copy paste the entire content from the link?

You make a decision and you post a link to show that your decision is based on certain facts. Now if that link also helps someone else make a different decision, what is wrong in that?

Atleast she was honest to post all data via that link.

by Sandeep 2008-04-27 05:40AM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

I am not accusing anyone of hiding info, just neglecting it in their reasoning.

by lockewasright 2008-04-27 07:07AM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Are you planning to refute the actual news report sources quoted there with appropriate news reports or other sources that repudiate what is reported to have been said by Obama in those news source clips or are you attempting some silly stunts like capt kangaroo?

by pdxarch 2008-04-26 10:18PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

OK, so I went to the link to the exit poll which was in the Hillary Hub link you provided and this is what I found.

Direct link to exit poll http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21226004

More people think just Clinton attacked unfairly than thought just Obama attacked unfairly.

Also, more people think Obama is honest and trustworthy than think Clinton is honest and trustworthy.

* Did either of these candidates for president attack the other unfairly?
Only Hillary Clinton did - 24%
Only Barack Obama did -     6%
(Both did - 44%, neither did -24%)

* Which candidate do you think is honest and trustworthy?
Hillary Clinton is - 58%
Barack Obama is    - 67%

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:23PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Goodness, you can do math right? If this is in defense of Obama's trustworthiness, then it is pitiful. The 9% difference in trustworthiness is a credit now to Obama? WHat this ends up showing is that a full majority of the voters think they are both not trustworthy and roughly half the electorate thinks Obama attacked unfairly as well. None of this is good news for a guy who claims he is not the business as usual politician and he practices a new kind of politics, which a clear majority isnt buying. And for the record, I think they both are politicians and do what it takes to win. However in this cycle, Obama has succeeded with his Chutzpah of complaining about Hillary clinton's negative campaigning while his campaign was the one that engaged in it from fall 07 and consistently while Hillary didnt feel the need to do it when she was 20 points ahead.  I can get you plenty of actual news report references to show that Obama campaign engaged in Hillary's character bashing first and consistently since last fall. See my other comments on this. Too tiring to repeat this constantly in every diary where bots form Dkos swarm in and repeat the same lies about Hillary's negative campaigning and how Obama is a victim.

by pdxarch 2008-04-26 10:25PM | 0 recs
Nobody ever called Obama &quot;Messiah&quot;

... except for those who, like you, wanted to denigrate him.

It is sad to see your candidate doing so poorly that  you can no longer find a way to post positive diaries about her, and must instead puke out, one after another, trashy straw-man hit jobs like this one and your unfounded faux-outrage attack on Olberman.

Playing the victim eventually wears out even the most willing and sympathetic onlooker.  Keep it up, an it will eventually cause even your avid supporters to wonder about you.

by tbetz 2008-04-26 05:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Nobody ever called Obama &quot;Messiah&quot;

Umm... it's called setting the record straight.  

That's what people do when their candidate is trashed unfairly - accused of going on the attack by a guy who claims to have clean hands.

by alegre 2008-04-26 05:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Nobody ever called Obama &quot;Messiah&quot;

Krugman has it right:

<blockquote> If the relatively mild rough and tumble of the Democratic fight has been enough to knock Mr. Obama off his pedestal, what hope did he ever have of staying on it through the general election?</blockquote>

by KnowVox 2008-04-26 05:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Nobody ever called Obama &quot;Messiah&quot;

Krugman is a very smart man.

by alegre 2008-04-26 05:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Nobody ever called Obama &quot;Messiah&quot;

Krugman's premise is false.

Obama was never on a pedestal.  Clinton supporters claimed he was on one and now claim he's off. But no Obama supporters ever saw him as more than human.

When one's premise is false, the entire argument and its conclusions are also false.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Nobody ever called Obama &quot;Messiah&quot;


>Obama was never on a pedestal.  Clinton supporters claimed he was on one and now claim he's off. But no Obama supporters ever saw him as more than human.

you have got to be kidding... This whole thing was a big gamble that you could get away with it without people wising up ..

This is just my opinion, but I think you are going to lose..

by architek 2008-04-26 07:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Nobody ever called Obama &quot;Messiah&quot;

You didnt go check out the link to press references to Obama Messiah or Messiah like references (you can do a google with Obama Messiah and the link you get refers to press reports), did you?

It has both reporters referring to the word messiahnic. In addition look at the quotes from the people who attended his rally. You will find words like "god-like energy", Obama-Bhakta (indian reference to a devotee. I am of Indian origin, so it is not something I read and accepted either), its like going to church and so on and so forth. remember these are actual press reports of events. You can go challenge them if you have something that says it didnt happen. But I think the report that quotes Jesse Jackson has it right. He is essentially running a theological campaign. THe author of the article says he sounded like a preacher. I used to wonder why people attending Megachurches and listening to tele-evangelists would send them money in boatloads for the evangelists then to pray for these individuals apparently? I now know the answer and it fits the fundraising operation that Obama has going as well. And not only that it isnt exactly the characteristic of the people who are clinging to religion out of economic hardship either. It is essentially self-described progressives who are mesmerized by this figure, despite the contradictions in politics he brings in. But hey, perhaps an inspirational preacher is what this country needs. What do I know?

by pdxarch 2008-04-26 11:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Nobody ever called Obama &quot;Messiah&quot;

I will vote for Hillary if she were the nominee and think she is a very capable person, but man you are hard to take. Hard to read this website when every diary is from you. They are all really disingenuous and instead of building Hillary up you tear Barack down. It is people like you that will really make his victory extra sweet for me.

by pennypacker 2008-04-26 09:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Nobody ever called Obama &quot;Messiah&quot;

Have you ever been to the daily Obama (aka dkos) or the Obamaington Post????   These two places trash Senator Clinton so nastily, so personally, on such gutter level I still have a hard time believing anyone there is "progressive or liberal" or ever has been.

Those places defended the likes of Matthews, Shuster and Randi Rhodes, and many agreed openly with their descriptions of Senator Clinton as a wh***.
The Clinton campaign used "inexperience" when talking about Obama and his worshippers went nuts.  He called her an ambitious calculator and his surrogates implied she was a lying racist and yet you are hysterical because some of us see his blinded followers as having a messianic view of him.

You cannot have it both ways.  Thank goodness there is a blog away from the daily Obama and the Obamington post where Clinton supporters are not personally trashed on a daily basis for supporting an "old hag" (yes, I saw those words used by Obama supporters).

by Jjc2008 2008-04-27 04:56AM | 0 recs
Sure about that?

Oprah called him "The One." Obama supporters call other Obama supporters part of a "cult."

Both MoJo an TNR refer to him with messianic terms and imagery.

Have you seen the artwork from his own supporters?

by Pacific John 2008-04-26 05:30PM | 0 recs
by KnowVox 2008-04-26 05:40PM | 0 recs
Mojo and TNR use the term to denigrate him.

Obama supporters are joking about how others denigrate them.

"The One" is more a pop-culture reference than religious.

But, okay... if this isn't a parody, it's just sad.  I'll grant you that.  But then, all public figures have their fanatic followers.

by tbetz 2008-04-26 05:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Mojo and TNR use the term to denigrate him.

Everything with Obama supporters is dismissed as "pop culture".......with the Obama supporters.
Don't get upset with "pimp" it's just pop culture.
Don't get upset calling someone a wh*** ...it's just pop culture.

Then how come your candidate gets cheered for saying "words matter."   Which is it with you folks?

by Jjc2008 2008-04-27 05:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Sure about that?

And the wife reminds audiences that Barack is "Special" and implies he has magical powers.

by Tolstoy 2008-04-26 05:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Sure about that?

Barak "will heal the holes in our souls." -- Michelle Obama

Creepy.

by KnowVox 2008-04-26 06:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Sure about that?

Michelle Obama didn't actually say this.

What's with all the made up quotes from Clinton supporters lately?

We had the false Sharpton quote the other day. (He did not call Clinton supporters "uneducated, redneck white trash.")

We had Alegre's diary repeating Peter Daou's false Obama quotes.

Now this false quote from Michelle.

I don't get it.

by jdusek 2008-04-26 07:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Sure about that?

Here  is what she said:

That we have to compromise and sacrifice for one another in order to get things done - that is why I am here, because Barack Obama is the only person in this race who understands that.

That before we can work on the problems, we have to fix our souls - our souls are broken.

So I am here right now because I am married to the only person in this race who has a chance at healing this nation.

You won't like this link, but it's her actual voice: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid= 3335264438614927798

by Montague 2008-04-26 07:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Sure about that?

This shows that the quote WAS wrong.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 08:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Sure about that?

Yeah, I've already read the transcript. That's how I knew Michelle Obama didn't say what KnoxVow is alleging. Generally, when you put something in quotes, it means they said "these exact words," not some clumsy approximation of what they said. Michelle said that Obama will heal the nation, not fix the holes in our souls.

by jdusek 2008-04-26 09:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Sure about that?

Absolutely sure.  She's said it many times.  The last time was on her appearance with Colbert.  If you don't "get it" perhaps you're not paying attention.l

by Tolstoy 2008-04-26 08:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Sure about that?

Absolutely sure.  She's said it many times.  The last time was on her appearance with Colbert.  If you don't "get it" perhaps you're not paying attention.l

by Tolstoy 2008-04-26 08:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Sure about that?

You're "absolutely sure?"

I just re-watched her Colbert appearance. Not one mention of souls.

You can watch the video and see for yourself:

http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertrepo rt/videos.jhtml?videoId=165957

Take a look and then let me know if you still think I'm not paying attention.

by jdusek 2008-04-26 09:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Sure about that?

You must have me confused with another commenter.  I referenced "special".  She said "special".

by Tolstoy 2008-04-26 10:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Sure about that?

Ha, looks like we both got our wires crossed somewhere.

You replied to me, but my criticism was of KnowVox's quote, not yours.

Yes, she did say that he was "special."

No, she did not say he will "heal the holes in our souls."

by jdusek 2008-04-26 10:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: Jesus Christ Superstar

"I DO BELIEVE HE IS THE ONE!"

Tweety gets thrill up leg...

Girls at rallies faint...

It's all really sort of pathetic, don't you think?

Barack Obama is nothing but a rock star, a Paris Hilton Celebrity, girls screaming when he says it's hot so he takes his jacket off...

He tells women he'll give them a kiss if they'll vote for him...teases a woman during a group photo, that it's his cell phone buzzing in his pocket, so don't think he's getting fresh...

It's the Obama "Ewww factor" that makes some of us cringe...

by Tennessean 2008-04-27 04:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Nobody ever called Obama &quot;Messiah&quot;

Build him up to tear him down, turn his strengths to weaknesses, etc., etc.  Just your typical rovian politics.

by catalysis 2008-04-26 06:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Nobody ever called Obama &quot;Messiah&quot;

Absolutely. This is a classic straw man argument.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:08PM | 0 recs
Not a Classic Straw Man Arguement

More like a deliberately assholish strawman

by bernardpliers 2008-04-26 07:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Nobody ever called Obama &quot;Messiah&quot;

do you actually know what a strawman is or is just something you picked up reading bot diaries? The diary title says messiah. And folks here claim that is denigrating Obama since no one refers considers him a messiah? somebody puts up media references including from his own supporters and I can get you  more closet obama supporters referring to him as messiahnic, although not calling him directly a messiah. IF this is what you refer to as strawman, you havent a clue on what a strawman is.

by pdxarch 2008-04-26 10:35PM | 0 recs
You better hope he is more than mortal

I think the bitterness that flows through alegre's writing is the realization that in a matter of weeks the Clinton's and their staff of devoted followers will fall into the irrelevant well of past election losers when they were so close to such great Presidential power. I will forgive you and Obama will too because he is not a disguised wolf as you now claim.

by ImpeachBushCheney 2008-04-26 07:36PM | 0 recs
Re: You better hope he is more than mortal

forgive? what kind of religious nut wacko are you? neither you nor Obama are some sort of God to "forgive" or not?

nutso!

by CalDem 2008-04-26 08:04PM | 0 recs
Re: You better hope he is more than mortal

Yeah!  What sort of nutty wacko religion preaches forgiveness????

Oh... all of them?

by map 2008-04-26 08:09PM | 0 recs
Re: You better hope he is more than mortal

So you can only forgive someone if you are a religious figure? You've never forgiven anyone, ever?

by zep93 2008-04-27 07:17AM | 0 recs
He is our last best hope for 2008.

McCain and Hillary have sold their sold to corporate America.  Get on board or get out of the way.  Hillary is not longer a Democrat.  Sorry to be blunt.  It is what it is.

by dystopianfuturetoday 2008-04-27 12:19AM | 0 recs
Re: He is our last best hope for 2008.

sure, because a bot genius said so. Of course, what is the world thinking? You make the case for why your savior and his supporters as vacuous as they seem. On the other hand, if you can actually substantiate any of what you said with some logic/reasoning/facts/figures that would be a great change

by pdxarch 2008-04-27 12:51PM | 0 recs
Again I will not say anything except

I read the whole diary.

by Student Guy 2008-04-26 05:07PM | 0 recs
If you're a student,

reading undoubtedly is an asset for you.

by Beltway Dem 2008-04-26 05:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Again I will not say anything except

Ok - thanks ;)

by alegre 2008-04-26 05:09PM | 0 recs
Heh.

Far more compelling as a storyline is how Hillary went from inevitable to impossible, dontcha think?

by MBNYC 2008-04-26 05:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Heh.

that's an interesting and entirely unrelated premise. why don't you go do a diary about it someplace else.

by campskunk 2008-04-26 05:12PM | 0 recs
It's entirely related.

Alegre seems to be reaching to create a downward trajectory. The most noticeable such trajectory in this season was the one that afflicted her campaign once voters cast their first ballots.

Entirely germane, dear campskunk :-)

by MBNYC 2008-04-26 05:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Heh.

Because only rah rah Clinton diaries at MyDD, right?

by zep93 2008-04-27 07:19AM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

i think obama's loyalty to waging a positive campaign based on hope is about as strong as his other loyalties. say, his loyalty to alice palmer. the weird thing, though, is how his campaign can continue the negative stuff while simultaneously insisting they don't do it. that's a fairly primitive defense mechanism.  the media's waking up, and i don't think this magic act can hold together much longer.

by campskunk 2008-04-26 05:11PM | 0 recs
Dude! He's a fighter!
Why only last September, he dug in his heels over blog civility!

Granted, it's the only time I've seen him dig in over anything, but it's a start!

by Pacific John 2008-04-26 05:18PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

His shine's got tarnish on it after the last 2 months.  Those mailers are full of lies and he's been called on them repeatedly.

by alegre 2008-04-26 05:19PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Voters are smart. They'll wind up in the trash faster than Obama can say "No she can't!" LOL

by KnowVox 2008-04-26 05:29PM | 0 recs
Mailers...

Does it bother you that Clinton used dishonest mailers in NH?

by map 2008-04-26 05:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Mailers...

In fact, Clinton supporters stopped women going to vote in NH and told them lies about Obama's position on choice. No wonder she is currently trailing in NH, a swing state that if Gore had won he would have become president.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Mailers...

Yeah, I posted about it here in a comment since I don't have the ability to post diaries.  It was -by far- the most dishonest mailer of the campaign. And she had the nerve to scold him a few weeks later for attacking a Dem on an issue important to Dems.

by map 2008-04-26 07:54PM | 0 recs
Are you SURE they didn't work for YOU?

It sounds like something O'drama would do...

by architek 2008-04-26 07:58PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal
I doubt the revelation that he's just a regular politician will do the job for him.

When it becomes clear he's John Kerry with more personality and more baggage, he's sunk. The only question is, when?

by Pacific John 2008-04-26 05:13PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Yeah, and we all saw what happened with Kerry.

I'm surprised folks haven't seen the similarities by now.

by alegre 2008-04-26 05:20PM | 0 recs
John Kerry with more personality and more baggage

Sounds like a diary to me.

by Pacific John 2008-04-26 06:00PM | 0 recs
Agreed

and BTW, nice title.  

One other comparision I found rather frightening was to McGovern's campaign--front paged here--even the campaign logos are quite similar. But the comparison also talked about the personality-based, emotional, nature of the campaign and its followers.  

I am very glad this nomination process will continue to June...and I thank and admire HRC for staying and fighting.  She said after her Ohio victory, and I will never forget it, "for those of you who have been beaten down, told to quit...this one's for you".

by 4justice 2008-04-26 06:20PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

I've noticed a new tactic. First he would spin any possible remark by anyone remotely connected to her or any unfounded rumor into a personal insult and then act outraged, that manufactured outrage that so excites his younger male supporters. he knows how to play the unfairly targeted victim of the harpy girl we all love to hate. Now he's doing SWASW - so what, anyway she's worse. If he's caught he's dismissive of the charges against him but somehow finds whatever he can to say she's worse. he even brought up her cookie baking?  Like, weird? I wish he'd bring up travelgate though, she got blamed for wanting accountability, that would now be seen differently, post Brownie.  She makes so few mistakes he has to recycle smears from eons ago, and of course he lies, he's great at lying, says he doesn't bring up her bosnia exaggeration when he brings it up all the time.  he's amazing. but he's no longer seen as above politics, at least not in states where his campaign is even more clearly all about her. the whole reason for him is to beat her? That's a reason to want to be president. I liked him better when he admitted he wasn't ready, not experienced enough, but once he decided to run he ran down her experience.  As his pastor says, he's a politician.  

by anna shane 2008-04-26 05:14PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Intresting contrast.  

You call his comments about her Bosnia comments "Lies" and then go on to call her actual comments on Bosnia exaggerations.  

Can you not see what you just did?

by nextgen 2008-04-26 05:20PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

The lie was when he said he's never brought it up. He had, and he continues to bring it up.  That's factually a lie.  

by anna shane 2008-04-27 08:22AM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

He's got the whole manufactured outrage thing down pat - especially when it comes to Bill.

by alegre 2008-04-26 05:21PM | 0 recs
His assault on Bill Clinton

is unforgiveable, in my view. That fact alone disqualifies him.  

by 4justice 2008-04-26 06:26PM | 0 recs
Re: His assault on Bill Clinton

You have to wonder what part of peace and prosperity he objects to.

by KnowVox 2008-04-26 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Oh, that must be why these all these newspaper articles out there about how Bill seems to be losing it.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:10PM | 0 recs
how much did that cost?

or was it on the house...

by architek 2008-04-26 08:00PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

He brought up the cookie baking as an example of how the media distorts remarks. In other words, he was speaking FOR Clinton and against media nonsense.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:32PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

In all fairness, he did it to bring up a negative memory about Clinton.  I'd have to check the transcript, but I think he did it only after she resorted to the Ayers smear which was a new low for a major Dem.

by map 2008-04-26 08:01PM | 0 recs
Too late in the game

for 'he said' politics.

My preference would be a Lincoln/Douglass-type debate between Hillary and McCain before May 6.

That would be a game changer.

by Coldblue 2008-04-26 05:16PM | 0 recs
That's why it just might happen, my friend.

McCain would love to see Hillary as his opponent instead of Barack.  Nothing else could bring out the  dittohead crazies who hate him to vote for him in November;  against Obama, they'd likely stay home.

It would be enough of a game-changer that he'd even be willing to fix the debate so he comes out the loser this one time.

Hillary's crazy not to challenge her friend John to such a debate, and he'd be even crazier not to accept it.

by tbetz 2008-04-26 05:21PM | 0 recs
So the 'dittoheads'

will decide the general election?

Dream on.

Or should I say you hope? McCain is salivating at the opportunity of thrashing Obama's message as a unifier.

Hillary presents a real problem for him.

by Coldblue 2008-04-26 05:38PM | 0 recs
Of course not.

... but if McCain can't bring out the traditional Republican base, who largely dislike and distrust him, he loses.  With Hillary on the ticket, they are sure to come out and vote against her, like Pavlov's dogs when the bell rings.  With Obama, it's an open question, and he'll have to work hard and take chances on alienating other voters to bring them out.

by tbetz 2008-04-26 05:49PM | 0 recs
I think Hillary can deal with THAT..

thank you...

I'd rather have the lines clear - so people could see what Democratic values really are - than having a sellout candidate who appealed so much to Republicans that he wasn't really a Democrat..

THAT would ALSO ruin the Democratic party, and alienate ITS traditional base for good..

is that what you are trying to say? Is that really what you guys want?

by architek 2008-04-26 08:07PM | 0 recs
Don't you know what &quot;Pavlov's dogs&quot; are?

The Republican base will turn out against Hillary not for policy reasons, but because they have been conditioned for decades to do so, to salivate when they hear the name "Hillary Clinton", and that conditioning will overcome their distate for McCain.

They have had no such conditioning toward Obama, so they will be more or less indifferent to him (even though from a policy standpoint -- except for that whole "obliterate Iran" thing, which Hillary and McCain have in common -- there isn't a lot of difference between Obama and Clinton), while they continue not to like McCain.

It's not about policy with them.  It's about their conditioning.

by tbetz 2008-04-26 08:17PM | 0 recs
Unconditioning

This is not so.  Just as years of amicable and generous treatment did nothing to cultivate the long-term loyalty of fickle Bill Richardson, GOP voters are likewise as prone to forgetting their pasts.  Many people on the GOP are actually starting to like her, because she is the only candidate demonstrating spine and tenacity.  If you scan the media you'll see a lot of Republican commentators writing about her in glowing terms.  One even sheepishly admitted, "she's even appealing to me... personally [as a voter]."  

Whatever hyperbole and caricature the GOP had of Hillary Clinton has instead been displaced to Barack Obama.  He is far more polarizing.

Obama = Far left.
Clinton = Center.
McCain = Center Right.  

by BPK80 2008-04-26 08:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Unconditioning

"McCain = Center Right. "

o_O

The mind boggles.

by Mandoliniment 2008-04-26 09:39PM | 0 recs
that is a great idea

because then we will see how tough HRC is going to be to beat. I personally think HRC will eviscerate McCain, all the while being so, so pleasant and articulate.

by 4justice 2008-04-26 06:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Too late in the game

But that's not what Clinton is proposing, except for the name.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:10PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Guys, -- and gals -- this is all politics from all sides. Obama is not above the petty attack from time to time, all campaigns do this. This is not news and could be argued to be a 'return fire' to the Clinton campaign for engaging in said behavior first.

All that drug dealer stuff in February was really unsavory.

by VAAlex 2008-04-26 05:22PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Is it possible..possible..
To not denigrate religions?
You toss around the word Messiah like it is just another word...

For many us it is more than that.
For you to cheapen it like this gives a clear look into how you must mock your religious friends.

(of course you could be of the Jewish faith..but even my Jewish friends do not mock my savior)

I seldom discuss my personal religious beliefs..
but I will stand up and against this shallow Diary.
(no I don't quote scripture on the net)

by nogo war 2008-04-26 05:23PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Excuse me, but who says Messiah only refers to YOUR savior?  Who says Christianity has a monopoly on the Messiah.  The Jewish faith believes in the Messiah too, it just doesn't believe the Messiah has arrived yet.  I am sure other faiths have some belief in a Messiah figure as well.

Characterizing her use of the word as denigrating religions is really  excessive.

by cjbardy 2008-04-26 10:07PM | 0 recs
Something Tells Me

we've got a better chance of seeing McCain take her up on a debate challenge than we do BO.

by alegre 2008-04-26 05:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Something Tells Me

Well, McCain is looking for free publicity as well.  Maybe the two "fundraising challenged" campaigns can help each other out.  I'm sure Fox News would love to host it.

I predict that Nuking Iran is a central theme.

by Capt America 2008-04-26 05:28PM | 0 recs
McCain has a good reason to do it.

Obama has none, at this point.

It does him no good to give Hillary free TV time to bash him, while he is constrained by his gentlemanly nature from doing the same.

At this point, it's best for him to pretty much ignore Hillary Clinton as much as possible, to turn his attention and his resources to the general election.

Hillary has already lost the nomination.  She just won't admit it yet.  But he would not be doing her, himself, or the nation any favors by feeding her delusion.  

by tbetz 2008-04-26 05:29PM | 0 recs
ignore?

I wouldn't be advising Obama to be sitting back right now.  

If he doesn't want to debate, well then fine, but don't just sit back and let the media or anyone else spin it into him "avoiding debates", and then cry when they do it. Don't fall back on "well he's ahead!!" because that won't wash now as the supers will decide this thing.

Why don't you challenge McCain to a debate right now?  That too could be a game changer.

by 4justice 2008-04-26 06:37PM | 0 recs
Obama is hardly &quot;sitting back&quot;.

He's striking out on the path to November, starting with a joint fundraising campaign with the DNC and a 50-state voter registration drive, for starters.

He's taking charge in a big way, leaving Hillary to attempt to play catch-up.  And she can't catch up.

by tbetz 2008-04-26 08:10PM | 0 recs
I think a lot of people are looking at Obama right

now and saying.. 'something is wrong with a candidate who doesn't want to let us see what he's all about' epecially when that candidate also opposes counting FLORIDA and Michigan votes.. and revotes..

BAD echos of the worst aspects of Bush AND Al Gore's lackluster response to the 2000 election issues...

by architek 2008-04-26 08:10PM | 0 recs
Catch 22

Obama does not fight back "he's too weak to stand up to the right wing"

Obama does fight back "he's no diffrent than everyone else"

Seems you all have built a nice little "no win" there.

by nextgen 2008-04-26 05:25PM | 0 recs
this is why you've got to take charge

of defining your candidate, not letting others do so and then getting mad about it!

by 4justice 2008-04-26 06:38PM | 0 recs
Re: this is why you've got to take charge

well at least you've admitted it's all dishonest spin.

by brimur 2008-04-26 08:39PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Clinton decides to poke Obama with a stick and when he breaks that stick he is flip flopping?

He didn't decide to bite back airing 911 style attack ads.  He didn't even decide to air her dirty laundry concerning donors and past associations.

And for not doing so, she questions whether he is tough enough?  She tells him that if he can't stand the heat get out of her kitchen?

It's too bad she likes the heat and the party has too much respect for hers and her husband's past contributions to give her the cold brush off.

by jv 2008-04-26 05:26PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

And her supporters are under the impression that she has been vetted and that Obama is oh so negative.  In fact, we all all know that there's a whole lot that will be thrown against her by a Republican that Obama has refrained from raising.

Personally, I'm proud that Obama has NOT done what Republicans would do. He's certainly a politician and an imperfect human being. But there's a lot he is not saying that could be said.

As put in a recent New Yorker column:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/he ndrikhertzberg/2008/04/after-pennsylva.h tml
Hillary has her own vulnerability in this general area, and it is larger than the fact, mentioned by Obama in his riposte to her, that her husband, on his last day in office, commuted the sentences of a couple of old Weather Underground jailbirds. (After a decade and a half in stir, they had been denied parole, apparently unfairly. Good for Bill.) What Obama did not mention was Hillary's internship, back in the groovy summer of 1971, at the Oakland law firm of Treuhaft, Walker and Burnstein. Treuhaft (Robert Treuhaft, husband of Jessica Mitford) had left the Communist Party thirteen years earlier, but Walker (Doris Walker) was still a member, and the firm was a pillar of the Bay Area Old Left. I assume that Obama didn't mention this because doing so would have rightly pissed off a lot of Democrats, because he is running as a non-kneecapping uniter, and because there is no evidence that Clinton has or has ever had the slightest sympathy with Communism. (Of course, there is no such evidence with respect to Obama and Weather Underground-ism, either, but that didn't stop Hillary from twisting that particular knife.)

My point is that Hillary Clinton has not, in fact, survived the worst that the Republican attack machine (and its pilotless drones online and on talk radio) can dish out. We will learn what the worst really means if she is nominated. The Commie law firm will be only the beginning. Many tempting targets--from Bill's little-examined fund-raising and business activities during the past seven years to the prospect of his hanging around the White House in some as yet undefined role for another four or eight years to whatever leftovers from the Clinton "scandals" of the nineteen-nineties can be retrieved from the dumpster and reheated--remain to be machine-gunned. The whole Clinton marital soap opera, obviously off limits within the Democratic fold, will offer ample material for what Obama calls "distractions." To take the most obvious example, the former President's social life since leaving the White House will become, if not "fair game," big game--and some of these right-wing dirtbags are already hiring bearers and trying on pith helmets for the safari. Is this a "there" where the Democratic Party really wants to go?

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:37PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

This lightweight whiner would be destroyed by McCain and the Repugs in the general. Hopefully, people are waking up. And not a damn moment too soon.

by Ky Dem 2008-04-26 05:27PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Hillary's by far the stronger candidate when it comes to going up against McCain in the GE.

by alegre 2008-04-26 05:41PM | 0 recs
Oops, wrong spin
In this diary, we're complaining that Obama is too mean. You'll have to wait another few hours for Alegre's diary about how he isn't mean enough.
by ZombieRoboNinja 2008-04-26 07:57PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Someone asked for an explanation of Obama and the change thing. Here's all I could come up with:

After studying Obama intently for about 4 months, I'm no closer to answering your question. He has never demonstrated any ability to change anything or even actually do anything. His record of 8 years in the Illinois Senate is missing. His record in the US Senate is quite sparse. There's little evidence of his working across the aisle. No sense of inclusiveness. There's no indication of any sort of "new politics." If anything, Obama seems more divisive than any politician I've ever seen and his political shenanigans look to be straight out of the Rove playbook with a Chicago slime machine twist. They call it Chicago Smack Down.

As for changing anything in Washington, there's just no evidence to support his claim that he could manage it. He says he doesn't take money from lobbyists but that's just not true. He takes millions from lobbyists through the backdoor loophole that lets spouses and employees of lobbying firms to donate. A similar loophole allows him to take money indirectly from oil companies.

So, what are we left with? Hope? Nope. Change? Not likely. A uniter? More like a divider in the extreme. New politics? He's demonstrating the worst of the old ways. Appeals to a broad range of voters? No, mostly just the white under-30 liberal elite and most of the black vote.

Bottom line, there's just nothing about Obama's past or present that suggests he would have any chance of changing how Washington does business. It seems a moot point since it looks like he doesn't seem to have any chance of winning against McCain. He probably won't get the nomination for that very reason.

by Nobama 2008-04-26 05:31PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Talk doesn't deliver change - experience and drive do.

Hillary's got what it takes.

by alegre 2008-04-26 05:44PM | 0 recs
Has Odrama ever had the kind of full time job that

most of us have spent most of our lives in?

I'm not talking about politics, etc..

by architek 2008-04-26 08:12PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

You're really good with those sound bites. Kind of like a professional public relations or advertising person.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 08:27PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

OMG are you implying he does not have the experience, the resume you would like???  OMG you must be a racist.  Only a racist would question his experience (I learned that at dkos).

by Jjc2008 2008-04-27 05:12AM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Oh, Alegre. It seems you are more than willing to post diary after diary in the same meme, taking talking points from the Clinton fact hub, and repeating erroneous claims (I notice for example, you talk about Obama going horribly negative and only pointed to either articles pondering if he would, or an Obama supporter his campaign denounced), and mischaracterizing others.

In my humble opinion, this is propaganda, nothing less. You're not furthering the dialog- the Clinton diehards will laud you, the Obama supporters remain unconvinced. I offered you the chance to really stand up and try to make a difference, to open up a dialog and make a stand to show how deeply you feel about your candidate, and you've ignored it.

by ragekage 2008-04-26 05:32PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Did you even read the post?  Because if you had, you just called the Washington Post and Paul Krugman propagandists.

by alegre 2008-04-26 05:45PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Ahh, seed the article with a pundit you claim to "adore" and a single reference to WaPo, then conduct an ad-hominem reversal to avoid the other questions/issues I posed. Indeed.

by ragekage 2008-04-26 05:49PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Beautifully put, as always. Rec'd. Senator Obama's campaign has been overwhelmingly negative since the beginning of the race, offering none of the "hope" that he says he is bringing to the political sphere.

by zcflint05 2008-04-26 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Without the hope and change - what's he got left?

by alegre 2008-04-26 05:45PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Uhh... he's winning?

by ragekage 2008-04-26 05:49PM | 0 recs
He didn't vote to give George Bush

... a blank check to invade and occupy Iraq.

When it comes down to it, that's just about all he needs.

by tbetz 2008-04-26 05:51PM | 0 recs
no, but he continued funding that blank check

when he arrived in the Senate.

by 4justice 2008-04-26 06:40PM | 0 recs
&quot;Give me my blood money...

... or I'll abandon the troops in the field and blame you" is a pretty convincing argument for giving the money.

Once Bush the Extortionist is out of office, that can change quickly.

Hillary had no such gun being held to the troops' collective head.

by tbetz 2008-04-26 07:03PM | 0 recs
Re: no, but he continued funding that blank check

You as a freshman Senator mean he didn't single-handedly figure out a way to clean up the mess Hillary Clinton helped make without any help from more senior Democrats with existing national reputations? Horrors.
Well, let's think what someone in that position could do, once he realized the complete bankruptcy and ineffectuality of the Democratic leadership he found upon arriving in Washington, which leadership included Hillary and Bill Clinton... what could he do....?

I know! He could run for president so that the party and the country could have new leadership that wasn't caught up in the Cold War mentality of the Vietnam generation (AUMF, Kyl-Lieberman, "Obliterate Iran"), and the  fifteen year old partisan back-and-forth of the Bush-Clinton-Bush generation.

Sounds like a plan.

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-26 10:45PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Approximately the same thing Hillary has if you take away Bill.

by Lost Thought 2008-04-26 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

by ragekage 2008-04-26 06:22PM | 0 recs
Ouch

The inconvenientest truth.

Well, not quite, he's still got several election under his belt, better retail political skills, and a nation-wide network of support that he built himself and that is winning the nomination....

...but I take your point.

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-26 10:41PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

The Democratic nomination?

by DeskHack 2008-04-26 06:18PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

um.... more popular votes, more states won, more donors, more money, stronger state-by-state EC polls....

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-26 10:39PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

I don't get the idea they are trying to put accross in the flyer with Hillary admired by the Business world. Who does Obama think is going to give Indiana workers their jobs, if not businesses?  In fact some of Obamas most loyal voters are the higher monied voters according to what I've heard.  What? Are they independently wealthy or something. Are none of them in Business?  Where do they get their jobs?

Seems everytime Obama gets to a state where jobs and working people are involved, he has to study up on what they're all about.  Hope he doesn't go on some fund raising trip to Sanfransico again and start talking about those people in Indiana.  

A thought also ran accross my mind today when I heard something that reminded me that Obama was going to be friends with the repulicans and make everything all hunky dory in Washington.  First, I think it would be a good idea to try to get along with the people in your own party before reaching out to republicans.  His reaching out to his own party members is sad at best.  First he might try to understand them better.  

by Scotch 2008-04-26 05:39PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

As evidence by the PA exit polls, Obama failed to connect with a HUGE contingent of traditional Democratic supporters.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21226004

by KnowVox 2008-04-26 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Bullshit.  From the exit poll...

Which candidate do you think is in touch with people like you?

67% - Hillary Clinton is
32% - Hillary Clinton is not

66% - Barack Obama is
33% - Barack Obama is not

Both candidates have connected with the voters.

by map 2008-04-26 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

You just make shit up continuously, don't you?

by alephnul 2008-04-26 11:38PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Sorry. It's hard to accept, but it's reality.  Just look at the exits.  He won only 3 counties in the state.  She won the rest by huge margins in most.  This is the only election in history where apparently 9 to 10 percent of the vote in one of the biggest states in the union is spun to be chopped liver, and people are blind to the huge numbers of traditionally democratic categories where she beat him handily.

by Scotch 2008-04-27 09:00AM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Do you live here in Indiana? No? So don't pretend to speak for us.

by zep93 2008-04-27 07:34AM | 0 recs
From Here to Eternity

That's how long this thing feels like it is going and if the negativity continues from both candidates, that's exactly what we'll be looking at from our new Commander-in-Chief, John McCain.

by venavena 2008-04-26 05:49PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Al,

Thanks for doing a real public service.

Obama is destroying the Democratic party.

He's a real magician. He's turning Democrats into Republicans.

Howard Dean is making a major mistake if he keeps ignorning mainstream Democratic voters in favor of the extreme left and the kiddie corps.

Bill Clinton's genius was in making the Democratic Party the party of the center.

Obama is doing such deep damage that if he gets the nomination, he's not only going to cause Democrats to lose, he's going to turn the party in to a fringe party.

I am astounded at the number of long term hard-core Democrats that are seriously considering leaving the party.

One thing is for sure. If Obama's the candidate, no amount of appealing to "party loyalty" will save him.

He's like the guy who killed both his parents and then asked the judge to give him a break because he was an orphan.

Obama stabbed the party in the back when he lumped Bill Clinton with George Bush.

Mainstream Democrats will never forgive him for that.

Anyone who thinks that we'll get behind him is only fooling themselves.

by BerkekeyGuy 2008-04-26 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

You may be mistaken in your definition of mainstream. Mainstream in politics is defined by whoever gets the majority required to win the election. As such, if he is the nominee, he will be in the mainstream. If you don't support him as the nominee, then it is in fact you who is not in the mainstream of the Democratic party. Not that there is anything wrong with that, just that you may need to reevaluate your position within the party

by Lost Thought 2008-04-26 06:17PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Bye.

by DeskHack 2008-04-26 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

I suspect he'll no longer be attacking Hillary for being endorsed by Fortune magazine, since he was just endorsed by Hamas.  Got to be careful what you use as ammo. :)

by bobbank 2008-04-26 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

The endorsement by Hamas was absolutely priceless. What's more amazing is the amount of vicious anti-semitism that Obama supporters post without a second thought.

by BerkekeyGuy 2008-04-26 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

I mean, I'm not trying to suggest he is associated with Hamas in any meaningful way, but my goodness John McCain must have been drooling uncontrollably when he heard that news.

by bobbank 2008-04-26 06:23PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Umm, I do not recall any anti-semitism from any Obama supporters... ever. Certainly not on this site. Any sources? I know Farakhan happens to support Obama, and has uttered anti-semitic language. But Obama rejected him, and beyond that, you specifically refer to the volume of hatred, so could you please point me towards the large block of anti-semitism being spewed from Obama supporters?

by Lost Thought 2008-04-26 06:26PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

What are you talking about? I am Jewish and active in the Reform movement and have never heard anything anti-semitic from Obama or his campaign?

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:14PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

I would be fine with this diary if you didn't use the inflamatory title of "Messiah". This is the equivalent, if not worse in some religious circles, as if someone were to write a diary with a title calling Hillary a "Bitch". Both are completely offensive and should not appear from the mouths of anyone purporting to put forth civilized discourse.

A better phrasing would be to say something along the line of "Not living up to his rhetoric", or "Obama goes negative", or something along those lines.

by Lost Thought 2008-04-26 06:23PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

"Falls to Earth" strikes a nice balance methinks.

by bobbank 2008-04-26 08:13PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Messiah to Mortal...I hope that is what happens to Alegre's status on this blog after Hillary finally has to make that forced speech of concession .

by Maize and Blue State 2008-04-26 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Funny. If I were as emotionally invested in Obama as all the Clinton supporters who call me a cultist, I'd've been in for a real let-down if he had lost. Fortunately for me, he was my third or fourth choice (Gore, Edwards, sometimes Dodd came in ahead of him). I guess it was the fact that I was dispassionate that led me to pick him.

I'd've been crushed if I gave my support to HRC, and then she turned into the desperate, mean-spirited, race-baiting self-caricature she's become since Ohio. If I'd've picked the candidate who decided to lose ugly, I think this race would've been (even more) difficult for me to watch.

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-26 09:08PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

From a coronation to a long shot (at best).

This could go both ways.

by chewie5656 2008-04-26 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Looks like Clinton supporters have finally figured out she doesn't have the "goods" to reach his level, so they continue to try to diminish him so he will come down to her level.....Hysterical.

Remember when it is used to be pro-Hillary diaries?  Now it's all Obama bashing diaries....When you're winning everybody is gunning for you....I love it,,,,

by hootie4170 2008-04-26 06:37PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Hey, where's all the Wright diaries??  I mean after his "pitiful" performance last night......

by hootie4170 2008-04-26 06:39PM | 0 recs
The strategy didn't make this kid president either

by lockewasright 2008-04-26 06:57PM | 0 recs
Re: The strategy didn't make this kid president ei

Too funny. Too perfect. I'd give you mojo, but they won't let me.

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-26 09:04PM | 0 recs
Re: The strategy didn't make this kid president ei

I gave mojo. That was too funny! What a little ham that kid is, a future actor!

Or politician. lol

by splashy 2008-04-27 10:16PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

I am shocked!  
The candidate I support is an actual human being -- and a politician, too!!

The things you learn on-line...

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:11PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Or as one might say - BFD.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:12PM | 0 recs
Heh. I thought this was about Bill Clinton

Your candidate lost. I'm sorry it's so hard for you to let go but if you're a democrat it's really time to concentrate on McSame.

by heresjohnny 2008-04-26 07:14PM | 0 recs
I should add that my candidate lost

too (Edwards) and I let it go so I'm not being snide.

by heresjohnny 2008-04-26 07:50PM | 0 recs
Re: I should add that my candidate lost

Edwards was a true class act -- I've supported Obama since Iowa, but I would have been fine with him staying in the race, because his campaign was always about calling attention to important and relevant issues.

It's a shame Hillary's campaign has failed to live up to this relevance.  

by Pragmatic Left 2008-04-26 08:26PM | 0 recs
Re: I should add that my candidate lost

I liked Edwards' message a lot and he drew attention to many issues that are generally ignored. I actually wish he was able to stick around longer to keep the message alive. Though the media totally erased him.

by heresjohnny 2008-04-26 08:29PM | 0 recs
Alegre, Stuff Like Will Effect Your Future

When all this is over, you'll be looking for a job some day, and writing like this will be like an especially humiliating MySpace page or a really crappy tattoo on the side of your neck. It's not going to look like a good idea in a couple years.

by bernardpliers 2008-04-26 07:20PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

I hope that Alegre has a secured a long-term commitment from the Clintons for her employment.  With "writing" efforts like this, God help her if she ever needs to find a REAL job.

The truth will be out there, and these hate-filled, delusional posts will be out there for all potential employers to see.

by baghdadjoe 2008-04-26 07:34PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

I'm amazed that anyone can support Obama.
It is a sad commentary on the incredibly low level of critical thinking skills that most people have today.

Obama should drop out before he makes more of a fool of himself.

by BerkekeyGuy 2008-04-26 07:35PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

That is quite rude and uncalled for.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:38PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Hmmm.
I missed your objection when someone (just above) said this about Hillary.....

"....desperate, mean-spirited, race-baiting self-caricature....."

I must have been reading too quickly and missed it.

by georgiast 2008-04-27 12:29PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Why? Civil rights worker, legislator, ivy league...

Seems pretty good.

by heresjohnny 2008-04-26 07:51PM | 0 recs
TRd

Because your brain apparently thinks of itself as far better than others, and it deserves to be punished.

by Mardarkin 2008-04-27 02:55AM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Great post, Alegre. Not only mere mortal but mere slimy mortal (sorry, but sometimes it is what it is). It's especially difficult to take because of BO's supposed squeaky clean transformational image. What a spin job!!!!

by susanclare 2008-04-26 07:38PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Given the number of superdelegates who moved to Obama because they saw the Clinton campaign as too negative

the donors and fundraisers who moved to Obama because they saw Clinton undermining the party and

the results from exit polls and other polls that show that voters see Clinton as more negative and less trustworthy than Obama,

your view is of course deserving of respect but is absolutely one that is far from what most people believe.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:48PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

It's called projection.

by heresjohnny 2008-04-26 07:52PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

And cognitive dissonance.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:58PM | 0 recs
Ironic

It's ironic that Alegre criticizes Obama as a messiah figure given her religious support of Clinton and her apparent belief in Hillary's infallibility. I've yet to see a single diary that acknowledges any fault or weakness.

I'm a proud Obama supporter, but I can see strengths and flaws in both candidates. I've written about many of them here, as have supporters on both sides. But you won't find any discussion of Clinton's negatives in Alegre's writing. It's all positives all the time.

If that's not a messianic view, I don't know what is.  

by jdusek 2008-04-26 07:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Ironic

Excellent point. I've criticized Obama for some things. For example, I wish he supported single payer (a fault he shares with Clinton).

But Clinton supporters often present this the candidates in a dichotomous way as if one is all good and the other all bad.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 07:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Ironic

Obama may be "The One" but it's Hillary who walks on water in these diaries.

by jdusek 2008-04-26 11:30PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Obviously, from the hate you spew, you are not a Christian. But I am, and take great exception with your casual use of of the word Messiah. We all realize how desperate the clintonites have become, but to start using jesus agaist us is inexcusable.

by venician 2008-04-26 07:47PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Sorry, but "messiah" has become a secular term.  Alegre isn't using Jesus against you, fer cryin' out loud.

Also, some of the most hate-spewing people I've ever known are Christians, and some of the very kindest are atheists, Jews, and Hindus.  Being evil or good is not related to one's religion or lack thereof.

by Montague 2008-04-26 08:05PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

And how about the labeling of people who switch to Obama as "Judas"? I'm not Christian but I would think that this would bother folks who are.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 08:26PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

And we saw one example of this here just today -- rather disgusting.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/26/1223 5/8763

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 08:33PM | 0 recs
Who fucking cares any more, Alegre

Jesus christ...I could not live my life spitting out so much negativity and venom as you do, everyday, with these endless diaries.

Every opportunity you get, you take.  You've so filled yourself with righteous indignation and infallibity it's hard to believe your an actual person, and not some fly-by-night, second rate political hack.

Honestly, what's you're point? That Hillary's negative campaign has led to Barack going negative?

You want to say he can't stand up to it, but when he hits back, you complain?  

So you're only point is to let people know that both Hillary and Barack are going pretty negative at each other right now?

by jaywillie 2008-04-26 08:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Who fucking cares any more, Alegre

Really...what a shocking diary...a candidate raises criticisms against his opponent, criticisms far more mild and less personal than Republicans would.

Your hook is that he somehow claimed to be perfect in all respects, but that's a straw man if there every was one.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-26 08:30PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Excellent diary again.  

It's wonderful to have a synapsis of the current events without the tarnish of pro-Obama spin and distortions.  

I condemn anyone in this thread who is attacking the diarist personally and insinuating things about her ability or inability to work in any given profession, presently or in the future.  Alegre's finances, employment, and any other personal information is none of our business.  

by BPK80 2008-04-26 08:28PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

The main group that propped Obama up as a "Messiah" are the Clinton folks (and the anti-Obama folks generally), and that's just so they could prove he's "mortal" in tedious repetitive diaries. Over and over. To the enlightenment of no one.

by Addison 2008-04-26 08:47PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

The main group that propped Obama up as the second coming was mostly the MSM and some Obama's own doing. Look at his website. The MSM LOVES to build people up (while making money) and then LOVES to knock them down (while making money). They do it to celebrities of all types and Obama thought the MSM loved him (and they did because they were in the 'building him up process').

Between his website- and the fact that every picture you ever saw of Obama on the MSM had him pretty well back-lighted so he had the 'halo' effect was the 'on the way up' part of the MSM who used his own "I am THE one" persona to deliver us from hell (the one we're in with Bush)while campaigning in a 'celebrity' sort of way with big rallies and words we've heard from every politition, hope, change, dream, new direction blah blah blah...while the MSM acted like these are some kind of new politics and new words not used by every candidate running against the oppostition party in the last 50+ years. The 'outsider' to washington (which he isn't)...it's ALL the same OLD politics.

Some of us saw the MSM sell- as they profit the most- and weren't sold by the 'messiah campaign' they were running on Barack. Then come to the blogs and see people buying it....he's a guy, human, can and does do wrong, makes mistakes, plays dirty, says and does whatever it takes to win because he's in it to win, like everyone else...but anyone who doesn't support him hears he doesn't do what he does, he didn't say what he said, etc.

Some are beginning to see and already expected and already knew that what the MSM (who are in the tank for Republicans)can build up they can tear down. You can blame the MSM, you can blame Obama and his supporters who played along, but you can't blame Clinton or her supporters for pointing it out.

I'm not anti-Obama, but I don't think he's done a good job of selling himself and haven't trusted the MSM since Bush41, and they sold us Bush43 and the Iraq War without any hesitation. The 'polls' for the run up to the Iraq war showed 70% of Americans thought we needed to take Sadam out (a lie I'm sure- but the lie we were sold).

by Justwords 2008-04-26 11:42PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Oy. Still another tendentious diary, dishonest title, followed by more cut'n'paste.

Funny, I never called him a 'messiah'. He wasn't even my first choice in the primary. When I decided on Obama over Clinton, it wasn't an easy choice. That was back in February, after Edwards dropped out. Having watched her sink into a desperate, mean-spirited, race-baiting caricature (I wrote "self-parody" first, but there's really nothing funny about what she's become).

Is Clinton really so arrogant and so stupid as to think she can bring back the more than half the party who rejected her, after the way she's conducted herself in the last two months?

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-26 08:48PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Geez! What do you say to someone who actually believes up is down, black is white, blue is red? You bought into the stuff Obama's team is trying to make everyone believe but it's just the opposite of reality. It's Obama and his campaign that are desperate, mean spirited, race baiting and all the rest. Get real!

by Nobama 2008-04-26 09:02PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

You bought into the stuff Obama's team is trying to make everyone believe but it's just the opposite of reality

I see Hillary Clinton, down in every count, by every realistic measure, flogging the name of Louis Farrakhan in a nationally televised debate.

I see her saying "You don't choose your family", except, of course, your spouse, "you choose your pastor, and I wouldn't have chosen Jeremiah Wright." Except, of course, she did choose Jeremiah Wright, when she needed some clergymen to influence public opinion when the spouse she chose... well, need I go on?

It's over. She lost. The sooner you accept it, the easier it will be.

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-26 10:30PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Has obama won yet? I dont see 2025 pledged delegates on his side yet. Pls point to that if I have somehow missed it. Being ahead of your opponent by 100+ delegates doesnt make you the winner or the nominee. Pls learn some teeny weeny thing about the nomination first before you write this nonsense

by pdxarch 2008-04-27 12:53PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Okay. I'll make a bet with you, and we'll both be on the honor system.

I pledge to donate $100 to the winner of the Democratic primary.

Will you do the same?

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-27 02:33PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

I have already donate a bunch. The point I was making was not questioning whether Obama will win. I think he is likely to win the nomination and likely to lose the GE. Likely is different from "has won and has lost", Im sure you know. So if you had said he is likely to be the nominee instead of Hillary has lost and Obama has won stuff, we would have agreed.

As far as contributing to the nominee, I need to know this guy is capable of handling the job. As of now, there are zero indications that he is, except how his campaign has been run. I give Axelrod credit for that, as opposed to Obama. But if he does manage to convince me that he is the most qualified candidate to do the job during the course of the fall campaign, I wont hesitate to donate.

by pdxarch 2008-04-27 10:20PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

tinypic

Well, you know, he really isn't for real. ;)

by Nobama 2008-04-26 08:57PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Just wondering, are you swiping someone else's work without attribution, are you so insane that you made that yourself?

by alephnul 2008-04-26 11:47PM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

oh please, on another thread, a poster photoshopped Hillary's head on Bagdad Bob - and it got mojo's from Obama supporters.

by colebiancardi 2008-04-27 04:59AM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Heh, I missed that one, although I've seen the Baghdad Bob jokes around.

Was it high qualtiy work like this one, or more of a slap-dash job? I can see doing the slap-dash job of either of these (okay, no I can't), but the quality jobs seem like the work of crazy people.

Says someone who has just spent several hours commenting on mydd...

by alephnul 2008-04-27 05:55AM | 0 recs
King Obama graffiti from his Hawaii HS

Has anyone seen the graffiti tags he left in his high school? (in the late 70's or early 80s)

Some are still there.. the ones I saw said Obama and "King Obama" its obviously old..in old concrete.

Went looking for the photos on the net, could not find them again.

But they are out there.. I know that many kids did stuff like that (vandalism) when they were young and should not be asked to pay for it now, but I find it a bit scary that someone who went around 'putting up signs' proclaiming himself to be "king" of his high school now wants to be President of the US.

by architek 2008-04-27 06:01AM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

by fogiv 2008-04-26 09:52PM | 0 recs
He needs to leave the gloves off

I rarely agree with Joe Klein, but I do agree with his statement that to win Obama needs to learn to play in the gutter. Clinton has mastered gutter politics. She has tried to trash his reputation and cynically used republican talking points to damage Obama. He needs to respond in kind reminding superdelegates of the Clinton baggage. (i.e. Whitewater and Monica Lewinsky) You can't win a boxing match when your opponent thinks she is in a knife fight.

by jadegirl 2008-04-27 01:21AM | 0 recs
Re: He needs to leave the gloves off

Oh, please.  Obama lumps in the Clinton administration with GWB, GHWB, and RR and she's the one that uses Republican talking points?  Riiiight...

And Hillary Clinton is the one going negative, in spite of a total lack of any actual policy proposals in Barack Obama's stump speeches, in spite of Barack Obama constantly harping on her character (instead of her qualifications, which HRC goes against Obama on)...the hypocrisy is really astounding.

Just because your candidate says he plays clean doesn't mean he actually does.  Put down the kool aid.  Obama's been plenty nasty since PA got started.  He just hasn't been nearly as successful.

by hornplayer 2008-04-27 01:41AM | 0 recs
That is so funny, when Obama and

his supporters have slimed two excellent advocates for African Americans as racist.   A lie, and an ugly one.  

When Obama and his supporters have relentlessly attacked the longest/best Democratic presidency of the last 50 years.   Who do YOU think shoudl have been President in the 90s?

When Obama has encouraged his gang of little attack boys to use vile sexist language to tear down one of the smartest, most courageous, and most caring women in history.  

by miker2008 2008-04-27 02:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Time for Escalation

Totally agree.  If she's determined to unilaterally tear the party in two to be the winner, he needs to let the party elders know that he can play that game as well.  There's always the Unity 2008 ticket.  Sure, he wouldn't win that way, but neither would Hillary.  

by zadura 2008-04-27 08:07AM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

OMG!!! WE'RE RUNNING A MERE MORTAL THIS TIME??? WE'VE ALWAYS RUN DEITIES IN THE PAST AND HAVE HAD MIXED RESULTS EVEN THEN... OBAMA IS DOOMED TO FAILURE!!! WHY'D YOU HAVE TO RUIN MY DAY???

by SpideyDem 2008-04-27 02:00AM | 0 recs
I love your complete

faith that Obama will be the nominee.  You keep on believing that.

by Beltway Dem 2008-04-27 04:00AM | 0 recs
Re: I love your complete

Of course I had faith he'd be the nominee.  I thought he was a deity before today!  Thank goodness Alegre or whichever one of you people wrote this diary has set me straight!

by SpideyDem 2008-04-27 04:43AM | 0 recs
Well, if you are that delusional,

I don't imagine that Internet therapy is appropriate.  I suggest you should find more appropriate help.

by Beltway Dem 2008-04-28 08:47AM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Obama's not the Messiah? He's only a human being? And a politician?

Who woulda thunk that?

by politicsmatters 2008-04-27 04:46AM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Once thing for sure, Senator Clinton's chances of winning the nomination are dead and are not going to be resurrected, even though she once said "I have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit on many occasions in my years on this earth".

by My Ob 2008-04-27 04:50AM | 0 recs
unilateral disarmament

What Clinton and her campaign and supporters would like is simple -- Unilateral Disarmament.

Now, why would Obama do that, when faced with a campaign team that will push, push, push, using Mark Penn and Penn-like tactics, not to mention Bill Clinton's continuing push to make harsh attacks as often as possible:

http://online.wsj.com/public/article_pri nt/SB120917154479246575.html
Mr. Clinton has placed several of his own aides at headquarters, including his former lawyer and a bevy of strategists. Known as a bad loser, Mr. Clinton privately buttresses his wife's drive to push on, telling her, according to aides: "We're not quitters."

On his own daily message calls, advisers say, he implores: "We've got to take him on every time." At the Clintons' Washington, D.C., home recently, these people say, he reviewed possible TV spots and told ad makers to be more hard-hitting, faster and harsher.

...

Mr. Clinton's influence is evident in pollster Mark Penn's continuing role in the campaign. Sen. Clinton recently demoted Mr. Penn as her chief strategist after he took part in talks with Colombia's U.S. ambassador over promoting a free-trade pact with the U.S. that she opposes.

However, Mr. Penn has helped in recent debate preparation, and proposed Sen. Clinton's last-minute negative ad in Pennsylvania questioning whether Sen. Obama has "what it takes."

by politicsmatters 2008-04-27 04:51AM | 0 recs
Thats a legitimate question...

whether Obama 'has what it takes'.

This isn't some managerial position for some company.

The stakes are very, very high for all of us.

by architek 2008-04-27 05:47AM | 0 recs
Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Damn. I've always wanted to meet a Messiah.  Sigh. Life disappoints yet again.

by wrb 2008-04-27 06:35AM | 0 recs

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