Post Debate Thread

Although it was somewhat redeemed in the final half hour, I feel like taking a shower after that debate. It was tabloid hour on ABC, and certainly Obama did get the bulk of the more disgusting questions. Check out this post over at ABCNews.com: over 4,000 comments, the bulk of which seem to just rip ABC.

As for the candidates' performances, neither was particularly inspiring and neither had his or her best night, although Obama did get plenty of opportunities to plead for an end to the issues of distraction and division and to call for a new style of politics and seemed to be the conscience of the audience as he called out the moderators. I think Clinton was stronger during the last half hour but not enough to tip the balance in her direction; certainly not enough for this to be a game changer.

It would almost be a shame for this to be the last debate, to go out on such a poor note.

What did you think?

Update [2008-4-16 22:45:18 by Todd Beeton]:I gotta think Ben Smith is onto something:

How much money will Obama raise off his supporters' perception that this debate was unfair?

Update [2008-4-16 22:54:57 by Todd Beeton]:And this tidbit from Chris Bowers, who's also here:

It appears that live focus group polling of undecideds favored Obama during the first round of questions that basically was a series of hit-jobs against him, while Clinton polled better in the focus group when it shifted to issues in the second half. Hmmm... perhaps her campaign should learn something from that.

Indeed.



Display:


Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 3)

I sense that Obama's supporters will be in an uproar over the questioning tonight.

Kind of like how Hillary fans felt in several of the previous debates.


by mjc888 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:08:03 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 4)

I hope the entire Democratic party is in an uproar over this.  Both candidates deserved more, and more importantly, WE deserved more.


by RussTC3 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:22:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Agree!  The reviews are in - and none are good.  ABC ought to be ashamed.


"Not only do I want an elite president, I want someone who's embarrassingly superior to me." -- Jon Stewart, 4/15/08
by JulieinVT on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:27:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Loser ABC (none / 0)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2008/04/17/AR2008041700013. html

Excerpt

In Pa. Debate, The Clear Loser Is ABC

It was another step downward for network news -- in particular ABC News, which hosted the debate from Philadelphia and whose usually dependable anchors, Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopoulos, turned in shoddy, despicable performances.

For the first 52 minutes of the two-hour, commercial-crammed show, Gibson and Stephanopoulos dwelled entirely on specious and gossipy trivia that already has been hashed and rehashed, in the hope of getting the candidates to claw at one another over disputes that are no longer news. Some were barely news to begin with.

Obama was right on the money when he complained about the campaign being bogged down in media-driven inanities and obsessiveness over any misstatement a candidate might make along the way, whether in a speech or while being eavesdropped upon by the opposition. The tactic has been to "take one statement and beat it to death," he said.

At the end, Gibson pompously thanked the candidates -- or was he really patting himself on the back? -- for "what I think has been a fascinating debate." He's entitled to his opinion, but the most fascinating aspect was waiting to see how low he and Stephanopoulos would go, and then being appalled at the answer.


by dearreader on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:07:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

The questions were awful gotcha questions, but Obama acted as if he could never have expected them. He seemed indecisive, petulant, peevish, and unnerved. Not good for him. Maybe he spends too much time in the bubble of his fans' adulation....


by doyenne49 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:17:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 3)

Actually, it probably shows why a bazillion debates are unnecessary.  They're only as good as the "journalists" who moderate them.


by rfahey22 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:08:56 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 5)

This was absolutely pathetic.  ABC News should be ashamed for asking such bs questions and taking such a long time to get to policy questions.  

I heard the first part on the radio as I was coming home from an event and in-between the segments, the news announcer said that "There was no knock out." If this holds as the frame, well, the race is not affected.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:09:34 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

I don't know....Hillary tends to perform a bit better in confrontational settings, and I feel this showed tonight.

Obama seemed a bit off his game.  I don't think he was ready to get such hard-hitting questions.  Did he smile once?

Keep in mind that this debate was basically for PA.  I don't think it will change the national picture much, but certainly could swing those undecideds in PA one way or another.

I say that Clinton goes up a few percentage points.


by mjc888 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:13:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

I'm talking about the media frame, which has an impact on people who didn't watch the debate but also some who did.

The Page, which is very influential in the world of political journalism, put out its debate grades:
Mark Halperin's overall grades: Obama B+, Clinton B.

So looks like no knock-out.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:21:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ambinder: Obama Couldn't Have Been Worse (none / 0)

The Page, which is very influential in the world of political journalism...

Please don't make me laugh. Let's look at Marc Ambinder:

Keeping the score card, there's no way Obama could fared worse. Nearly 45 minutes of relentless political scrutiny from the ABC anchors and from Hillary Clinton, followed by an issues-and-answers session in which his anger carried over and sort of neutered him.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:30:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ambinder: Obama Couldn't Have Been Worse (none / 0)

Well, if you want to have a debate about whether The Page or Marc Ambinder is more influential, go ahead. I don't know how to get page stats -- perhaps you do, and if so, please look them up.

But I don know that Halperin of The Page was just on CNN and does a lot of pundit appearances while I've never seen Ambinder.  So this implies to me that Halperin and the Page have a bigger impact on the media narrative.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:38:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ambinder: Obama Couldn't Have Been Worse (none / 0)

The point is your questionable characterization of Halperin as a "very influential in the world of political journalism."  Lots of pundits are quoted on lots of shows. By your standard, O'Rielly would be "very influential in the world of political journalism."


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ambinder: Obama Couldn't Have Been Worse (1.00 / 1)

Halperin is a douchebag!!!


by chewie5656 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:25:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Did I watch the same debate?  Obama was weak and boring.  Hillary had answers on her fingertips, confidence, a plan for everything and deep knowledge.  She was an A- and Obama a C+.  Obama looked flustered at times.  If I were their professor, there would be no doubt that Hillary was the superior candidate.


by tiffany on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:30:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (1.50 / 2)

LOL Hillary sounded like a freaking desperate loser and lost any chance of EVER getting the black vote back.

She was WAY, WAY over the line on that wright stuff


by CaptMorgan on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:37:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Shifty eyes (none / 0)

Someone should have coached Hillary to ignore the people in the balcony.  She kept looking around while speaking and it was very distracting.  I thought Obama looked and acted more presidential.


by xtrarich on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:46:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Word.Listen sports fans, at this point in the campaign Obama is , you know, kneeling on the ball.Tradition and decency dictates that the game is  over when the opposing quarterback is kneeling on the ball,yet the Hillary campaign has decided to try and sack the QB anyway.Sigh.


by tommy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:29:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I guess it depends on whether voters care about that crap or they care more about issues.  As we know from recent polling, HRC has been hurt from the view that she is too negative, so I think that when the questions encourage her to go negative, I think that's bad for her.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:40:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Now that you mention it, I agree ;-) (none / 0)

Hillary took less damage than Obama by my reckoning. His answers were too long and evasive at times. Hers were also sometimes hard to listen to, but not as bad as his.

However, this seemed less like a debate than an episode of Jerry Springer, so I'm not sure how relevant either person's performance tonight is to anybody trying to choose a President.


by professor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 01:03:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Has there actually been a debate this cycle that has given any advantage to either (or any) candidate?  I can't think of one that really affected any of the primaries.


by rfahey22 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:23:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

that drivers license stuff was at a debate..

i dont think there have been many pivot points across the whole season. wiggle left, wiggle right.


by hctb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:25:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

I wouldn't be surprised if Obama gets a sympathy bounce in PA for this. I felt like a Clinton supporter watching the NH assault on her. She looked weak and chastened. But people in the middle knew that it was the nasty gang-up by Obama, Edwards and the moderators that hurt her. So they rallied to her defense. It was a game changer in NH. I don't see anybody watching this and feeling more comfortable with Clinton, even if Obama was on defense.


by elrod on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Why doesnt Obama smile at these things? He doesnt look at her when she talks either. Just shuffles notes and looks at his hands. That really bugs me. I want to give him a note: pay attention and show respect to your colleagues. why does he do this-- it has been a consistent strategy so there must be some reason other than demonstrating jerkitude.


by hctb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:28:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Not to mention his constant professorial bloviating, which is extremely annoying.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:32:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As a professional bloviator ... (none / 0)

I'd say that both candidates were too professorial (in a bad way) at times. I don't understand why they feel like they have to give a five minute answer to a closed-ended question.

I do agree, though, that Obama tended to meander a bit more that she did this time.


by professor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 01:14:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's hard not to look stiff (none / 0)

when listening intently to your adversary in a debate. The camera angles didn't help either, with his dour-looking face looming over her when they came in from the sides. The whole thing was just ugly.


by professor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 01:09:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Why didn't he smile???? You're kidding, right?  He gets bombarded with inane question after inane question, nothing to do with policy, all to do with the politics of personal destruction as perfected by Karl Rove, and you're wondering why he isn't smiling?  Sheesh!


"Not only do I want an elite president, I want someone who's embarrassingly superior to me." -- Jon Stewart, 4/15/08
by JulieinVT on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:37:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

"A bit off his game" indeed.  He looked like Dan Quayle when he had to face Lloyd Bentson.


by Tolstoy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:36:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Oh, come on.  I am an obama supporter and agree he was off his game, but to compare this to that is ridiculous.  

Although, for a thrill, go to youtube and watch that famous exchange.  Quayle is staring caught in the headlights, and swallows hard.  You can actually see him swallow hard on the tape, and the shot was taken from a three-quarter angle from the opposite side of the stage.

Such a great moment.  


by LarsThorwald on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:09:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

I think it can be safely assumed that Obama did not expect questions about 60s radicalism and the Weather Underground.  Maybe he thought he'd get questions about Aghanistan, on the declining dollar, or healthcare, or China, or an actual issue.  

Worst debate ever.  Fox News just hosted a Democratic debate.  


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:48:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Given all the rumors this morning (none / 0)

somebody in his campaign had to know that Stephanopoulos was going to ask about Ayers. Even I knew that.


by professor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 01:19:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I felt like ABC just handed a cart full of ammo to use against either of these two in November.  I am sure they wanted to sell ads and drag this primary out longer, but all they really did was make McCain's night.


by Xris on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:09:50 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

...but the topics were mostly old news.

I thought some of the "challenging" questions were appropriate, particularly for Obama to respond on the "bitter" comment, and for Clinton to deal with the "sniper fire."

However, I think the flag pin question was one too many in the gutter.

Hillary went a bit too far at times rallyinh against Obama, and on the flip side Obama's mention of Hillary's "off the record comment" that was secretly recorded is EXACTLY the type of low blow that he was speaking out against.


by mjc888 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:19:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

so you would agree with my choice to switch the TV to call of duty and drink beer because it was a huge waste of time:)


by Xris on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:25:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

i had to watch american idol. More voters than the democratic primaries. ;)


by hctb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:29:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

ABC news is basically Fox News lite (if lite at all)... Mark Halperin made them that way, and they certainly serve their Disney masters well...

I would suggest to either candidate to never allow an ABC News debate again...

I can sort of see why Hillary wanted a FOX news debate, since it would be giant gang up on Obama like tonight...  But, she is lucky that they didn't get that debate, 'cos she probably would have been slammed pretty unfairly, too...


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:33:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

As an Obama supporter I would have to say that Hillary performed well when she wasn't actually piling on to the attacks on Obama in the first segment.  William Ayers?  I mean really...

As usual it is hard to discern what the 'take-away' will be from this lacklustre debate, knowing the media probably the most controversial tabloid stuff, we'll see.  Interesting to see the Iran proliferation issue devolve to a nuclear deterrence agreement with Israel, props to Hillary for clarity on that but a definite risk in the general on issues of preventing a nuclear capable Iran.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:10:15 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 3)

A truly disgusting "debate".


by Bobby Obama on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:10:24 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

this is the first debate that i actually got up and left the apartment and came back to.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:10:48 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

laugh, I actually filled up a huge mug of beer and played Call of Duty 4.  Normally I never do that during debate time.

Its good to see an Obama and Clinton supporter agreeing on something:)


by Xris on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:20:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Gad, I love that game.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:29:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

It is insanely addictive.  But it kind of sucks when a 12 year old snipes you and then describes the horrible things he did to your mom the night before.  

Maybe us Obama supporters should challenge the Clinton supporters to a big Call of Duty throw down.  It would be more productive than the time we spend here throwing poop at each other.  


by Xris on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:32:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

It would be equally as productive, that's for sure.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:02:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

OOO, I am so down for that.


Vote Change in '08!
by iowa dem on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:18:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I'm a Battlefield 2 guy myself, but Call of Duty is fun.


by GobBluth on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:59:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah (2.00 / 2)

It sucked. It was the worse moderated debate I have ever seen.


My thoughts on McCain: I have no desire to let that idiot fulfill his desire to "Bomb Iran"
by Otaku Saru on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:10:52 PM EST

Re: Yeah (2.00 / 1)

I thought Russert and Williams were far worse!


by tiffany on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:34:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah (2.00 / 0)

Agreed.


by bobbank on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:47:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah (none / 0)

Indeed. At least Russert didn't ask any UFO questions this time.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:59:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 3)

This is nothing, wait till the GE debates.


by souvarine on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:11:30 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 0)

Exactly.


by gotalife on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:27:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

this is also the first debate in which my account didnt get frozen from posting too many comments.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:11:44 PM EST

Totally agree with you Todd (2.00 / 1)

This debate was a travesty. John McCain won this one. Not a single issue for the first half, but airing all the negative crap about both candidates. How terribly pathetic.


by TheSilverMonkey on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:12:17 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 3)

Fortunately, the last half hour was a real debate, and that's what people were left with.  So, looking at that last half hour, Hillary seemed very on her game, and Obama seemed very tired.  I don't think Obama realized that his audience was made up of Democrats.  Even his closing remark was not received well.  Also, saying that he would talk to Bush senior, as if to imply but not Clinton seemed in very poor form.  But as far Hillary's performance, she was so prepared, so clear, and at times funny (we all know Cheney is a 4th branch of government) I thought she did great.


by FarWest on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:12:23 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Glad you brought that up.  I'm never happy to hear a Democrat praise a Bush.


by Tolstoy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:42:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

At a fundemental level (2.00 / 1)

she just doesn't get it.

Hillary is a brilliant woman with a great command of the issues.

But ever since South Carolina she has spent much of it launching attacks the effect of which has been increase her negatives to a point where she probably can't win the nomination.

In several instances these attacks have primarily served to re-enforce doubts about her honesty.  

Her campaign is the worst run major Democratic campaign since Ed Muskie.  


by fladem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:07:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ABC sucks (2.00 / 1)

The media is so full of shit. Nobody wants to hear any more about the tabloid bullshit.

God I just want to crawl underground until November so I don't have to hear this effluvia any more.


Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!
by fwiffo3 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:13:08 PM EST

HRC Vows "Tabloid Shit" Will Continue (none / 0)

Nope, in for a penny in for a pound, she's going to win by depressing voter turnout. She'll win the White House and lose the House in 2008 and the Senate in 2010.
by bernardpliers on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:46:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe in your sim.politics world (none / 0)

you are delusional, right? We will not be losing the house or the Senate this cycle. THIS is a math thing. Republicans do not have the candidates.

Yours is an alternate reality.


by hctb on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:54:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

MSNBC (2.00 / 1)

basically feels that HRC was playing the McCain stand-in for a practice debate to prep the nominee: Obama.

Interesting take?!


by FOB92 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:13:36 PM EST

Re: MSNBC (2.00 / 1)

MSNBC thinks Hillary is irrelevant and should have stepped out in January so the men could get to debating what is at stake for our country?  I am shocked.


by hctb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:31:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MSNBC (2.00 / 1)

MSNBC has lost all credibility and should keep their mouths shut!


by tiffany on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:36:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MSNBC (2.00 / 1)

Typical of MSNBC.  Totally pro-Obama. Totally hate-Hillary.


by Tolstoy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:43:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, All MSNBC Hosts and Analysts suck... (none / 0)

like Joe Scarbourough and Pat Buchanan who have all of the sudden fallen in love with Hillary Clinton.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:23:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Shameful (2.00 / 3)

Asking Obama if he supported the flag isn't just absurd, it's irresponsible journalism.  How can anyone believe that the media favors Obama after that insulting line of questioning?


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq for a century.
by jkfp2004 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:13:51 PM EST

Re: Shameful (2.00 / 1)

It's a question that is going to be asked of him, in far harsher and less fair ways, if he is the nominee.  Seeing how he answers that question in a very tame setting, amongst a supportive crowd, with an opponent that is not willing to punch him with it, is important.

In that very favorable setting, he handled it decently - he redirected to the question to a broader and less specific ground, which is what he is very good at in a debate.  Won't work in a debate against McCain though.  He would have nailed Obama to a cross for implying, even remotely, that our flag is somehow the equivalent of contrived patriotism.

But since his opponent for now is a fellow Democrat, he did not have to withstand the full force of that question.

Understand this: you and I might not question his patriotism, but half of America will.  He has to be able to address it convincingly, and that is what such a question tests.  Think of it as a Print Preview button.


by bobbank on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:51:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am tired (none / 0)

of these excuses from Clinton supporters.

No, I don't believe (insert absurd guilt by association attack here)is an issue, but wait until the Republicans get a hold of it they say.

Bull.


by fladem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:12:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am tired (2.00 / 1)

Oh I think it's perfectly reasonable to judge someone by the company they keep.  I also think that 'association' is a relative term.

In the case of Wright, for example, 'association' means 'I consider this man the spiritual equivalent of my father, I look up to him as my mentor, I named my book in honor of his sermons (note: I only ever heard the nice sermons), I devoted myself to him for 20 years, I hired him as a national adviser to my campaign, and I helped to fund his organization to the tune of $20,000 a year.'

It's absolutely legitimate to question his decision to pledge himself to the man in that case.

I wouldn't say that Barack is anti-American because I don't think it's constructive: "American" means vastly different things to different people.  I would say that the fact that Barack admired Wright's ideology tells me something valid about his thinking, and I don't like it.

But anyway, thank you for playing parrot and echoing the Axelrod talking point that "guilt by association" is off limits.  If you actually have any of your own thoughts, I'd be happy to have a conversation.


by bobbank on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 01:15:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

This was horrible. ABC News apparently would rather pander to American Idol style non-questions in lieu of actually having Democratic candidates discuss actual issues. They should have broadcast this from the set of the Springer show. I'm glad they're getting an earful over this and hopefully at least it will elevate the level of disgust all Americans have over getting force fed pointless sound bite "outrage".


by upstate girl on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:14:14 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

This debate should have been sponsored by the National Enquire. Where was the discussion on waterboarding, FISA, and global warming? ABC really disappointed.


by mecarr on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:15:27 PM EST

Gibson and Stephanopoulos (2.00 / 1)

should not ever get the chance to moderate a debate like this again. Completely unprofessional.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:15:47 PM EST

Re: Gibson and Stephanopoulos (2.00 / 0)

No Fall debate for ABC


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:09:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It Didn't Help Either One of Them (none / 0)

I don't think it helped Obama much, but Obama took the opportunity to reach past the moderators and point out the meaningless superficiality of the media's role.

I don't think it helped Hillary either, but I think it really really drove up the negatives for people who may not have liked her much before.

So I don't think it'll move the polls, but it's going to get more money for Obama.


by bernardpliers on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:16:26 PM EST

Re: It Didn't Help Either One of Them (none / 0)

meaningless superficiality of the media's role.

the role is important- monitoring our shifty and shirking agents to government.  It is that the media seems to think that we have abrogated this role in favor of focusing responsibilities to entertain the masses or mollify corporate america.


by hctb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I'm done with ABC and all their other channels (espn).. already started calling their sponsors...

Thank god for olberman calling them out.  Just fucking shameful


by CaptMorgan on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:17:32 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

How could you listen to Olbermann and not call him a hack, as well?  


by tiffany on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:38:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Indeed.  KO has become a major league hack.


by Tolstoy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:45:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

He "became" a hack to you only when he started calling Hillary on her sh*t.  I bet you were fine with him when it was Bush who was in his sights.


by mikeinsf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:11:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

hctb<--always thought Olberman was a tool. Just preferred him to some of his MSNBC colleagues who are bigger tools. It is like the attractive man at a party versus attractive man. Square is a rhombus; rhombus is not always a square.


by hctb on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:06:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Can I nominate this for worst analogy of the night?


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:09:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

Hillary appeared much more Presidential and in command of the issues. Obama's contant bloviating did not serve him well.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:19:01 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I think:

Obama appeared much more Presidential and in command of the issues. Hillary's "contant" bloviating did not serve her well.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:35:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

alright, stand back to back, walk ten paces, turn around and fire. It is the only way to decide this.


by hctb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:37:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Rock, paper scissors.  :)


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:03:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Penn-Columbia (none / 0)

Was mentioned how many times. Zero!!!


My thoughts on McCain: I have no desire to let that idiot fulfill his desire to "Bomb Iran"
by Otaku Saru on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:19:25 PM EST

If you were pissed off as much as I was here (none / 0)

is the link to complain about this crap shoot debate. I think both camps can agree this was not a debate but an attack on Democrats.

http://abcnews.go.com/Site/page?id=32713 46&cat=ABC%20News%20Specials

Tell ABC what you think!


by SocialDem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:20:24 PM EST

Amen to what has been said. (none / 0)

A travesty of a debate. McCain and the Republicans won this one. Obama will have a big fundraising couple of days.


by Obama08 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:20:51 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Hey all:  I haven't seen it yet, but did catch a little of the net live stream before I ran off the the kid's open house for school.  

Did the television coverage also have the "room full of undecideds pushing buttons to make an approval chart" thingy happening or was that exclusive to the webcast?


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:21:54 PM EST

Here's some advice (2.00 / 1)

don't bother watching it.  The last hour was okay, but the first hour utterly ruined the debate for me.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:19:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's some advice (2.00 / 1)

You're right.  So far (42 minutes in) this has been:

a) bad for Obama

b) bad for Clinton

c) worse for ABC

d) Great for McCain

Horrible.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:42:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Obama did a fine job with the Ayers question.  His reference to Coburn was right one. This was one I heard in the car.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:23:03 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

I thought that was an absurd attempt at analogy.


by Tolstoy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:47:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

That's sad... showing you don't even understand what you are talking about


by CaptMorgan on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:47:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

I am unaware that Coburn himself has killed any abortion doctors. Am I missing something?


by hctb on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:26:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I didn't see the debate (2.00 / 0)

because I'm still stuck out here on Pacific Daylight Time, but I did take a peek over at Brand X site and, boy oh boy, are the heads exploding!  Is it fair to conclude that Hillary did well?


by Radiowalla on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:23:58 PM EST

Re: I didn't see the debate (2.00 / 1)

The big winner was John McCain.  Second place is sort of hard to tell.


by rfahey22 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:24:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I didn't see the debate (none / 0)

Hillary was the BIG winner.

To quote a friend, "Obama stumbled around like a kid at camp who's lost his flashlight and can't get to the outhouse in time."


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:41:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I didn't see the debate (1.00 / 1)

to quote a friend:

"I could write KnowVox's posts for them; that is how predictable they have become."


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:30:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I didn't see the debate (1.00 / 0)

Is your friend 75 years old?  An outhouse?  


by LarsThorwald on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:13:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I didn't see the debate (none / 0)

In fairness, he did have to send in the comment by telegraph.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:06:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I didn't see the debate (none / 0)

Hillary was the hands down winner.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:38:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I didn't see the debate (2.00 / 1)

I thought Hillary won hands down, too, but the Obama supporters are pissed and crying foul because their chosen one didn't do too well.
Hillary has taken a lot of crap from the MSM while Obama has been given a pass.  Tonight, Gibson roughed up Obama but Obama did not pass the test.
by tiffany on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:45:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I didn't see the debate (none / 0)

Are you people 12?  Any mature intelligent person watching that debate thought:

"Why are they asking these stupid questions"

"Why are they still asking these stupid questions"

"Obama is right these questions are stupid and distracting"

"Why is hillary piling on this meaningless schoolyard crap"

The sad truth is for the first hour of the debate HRC and both moderators acted like children


by CaptMorgan on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:49:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 5)

OMG, you think the corporate media and the gop are going to hand over power without a fight?
Are going to be fair? Are you serious?

Reality check.

This is what the general debates will be like.

Need a fighter not a whiner.

Geez.


by gotalife on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:24:45 PM EST

since you asked what I think: she won! (2.00 / 1)

Hillary won debate and she will crash Obama in PA primaries. Obama was whining and boring and looked very UNPRESIDENTIAL


Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:26:07 PM EST

Re: since you asked what I think: she won! (2.00 / 1)

a lot of thought went into your post.  If only you could have added some digital pom poms.


by Xris on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: since you asked what I think: she won! (1.50 / 2)

The use of caps is the true sign of a deep mind.


by rfahey22 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:30:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: since you asked what I think: she won! (2.00 / 1)

IF ONLY I HAD KNOWN THAT BEFORE (makes note to self with crayon)

;)


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:16:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My thoughts (2.00 / 3)

1. I thought Sen. Clinton won this debate, but I have always been impressed by her debate performances even when I was supporting Edwards.  She effortlessly blends detail, big picture, solid delivery.  Love her or hate her or embrace her, she knows what she is talking about.

2. Gibson and wonder kid should be ashamed of themselves.  It's not just that there were so many gotcha questions, but that many of the other questions were stupid and in many cases they failed to even pretend to adhere to journalistic standards of objectivity in favor of "folksy" and leading questions.  Gibson is an abomination.  Jennings is rolling over in his grave.  That guy was good; Gibson is a tool.

3. Sen. Obama needs to bring greater variability into is stock move when pressed on Ayers, Wright, bitter, etc.  He has a good answer ("This is just more of the politics of division" and so on) but he needs to carry it off better, it seems to me.  After a while it looks a little dodgy and not high minded as intended.  I think he could have gotten a lot of mileage pointing out how the media have done the same things to Sen. Clinton, so that the answer is part of making him look bigger, not just repeating the defense.

But I will confess I spent some time checking on the Sox-Yankees, so I missed parts of the debate.


"We live entangled in webs of endless deceit, often self-deceit, but with a little honest effort, it is possible to extricate ourselves from them". -- NC
by Trond Jacobsen on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:26:08 PM EST

Re: My thoughts (2.00 / 3)

I think that overall Hillary was a bit stronger, but both at times made some obvious mistakes, namely:

1) Hillary - when Obama gives a poor response, leave it be, don't pile it on.  That's a move that will backfire and is very transparent.

2) Obama - don't hide behind the cloak of rising above "typical politics" while simultaneously making low brow moves.  Example: his mention of Hillary's "secretly taped" conversation.  


by mjc888 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:43:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My thoughts (none / 0)

That's so concise and spot on that I had to rate you up for it.  Very astute.


by bobbank on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:54:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Debate ... Idol ... Yankees-Red Sox here n/t (none / 0)


by professor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 01:33:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama is the front runner (2.00 / 3)

and the questions posed to him were no worse than those posed to Hillary in previous debates.

Welcome to the club.


by Coldblue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:28:22 PM EST

Re: Obama is the front runner (none / 0)

That's probably true. This was like Hillary in New Hampshire. That didn't turn out too bad for her. Sympathy for her after that awful gang-up on her propelled her to victory. I wonder if that will happen this time.


by elrod on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:36:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe, but I doubt it (none / 0)

He was too stiff and dour to generate much sympathy. If he had managed to keep his humor about him, Reagan style, then maybe it would have helped him some. After all, for most people the only thing they remember from the big Carter debate was the "There you go again" line.  Obama needed one of those lines.


by professor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 01:42:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

since we only have one channel at our house (we don't watch t.v.) I was really excited that the one channel we could kind of get (fuzzy to the point of barely being able to make out the candidates).

but now i hate myself. I've really let myself down by watching tabloid television.


!
by alex100 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:31:27 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Finally, something to bring the whole party together.

The debate airs here in 30 minutes.  I guess I'm safe leaving the M's/A's game on.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:31:57 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Obama supporters (myself included) are pretty angry at Hillary for piling on about Ayers. Not really sure if it were smart for her to make that comment about him on the board with Ayers.


by gcensr on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:33:05 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

christ, it was an hour ago. how did you all communicate and converge on your outrage? Did Axelrod send you out a text?

You have probably evolved beyond such outdated technologies.  mind meld?


by hctb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:43:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Actually I believe that part of the Axelrod marketing campaign is a text messaging service that flashes supporters who are signed up for it.


by bobbank on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:44:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Unless the questions are substantive and serious (none / 0)

it's meaningless how either candidate addressed them. America is sinking into the muck and ABC seems fully willing to help us all along.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:33:56 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Passive-aggressive Howard Wolfson "wondering" about Obama's attendance at a William Ayers meeting. Sean Hannity wants to know. What a jackass.  


by elrod on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:34:58 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Wolfson is such a sketchy untrustworthy presence on television. But he definitely keeps the kitchen sink strategy going.


by wasder on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:41:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

Actually the moderators did us a favor. They beat our candidates with the sticks that the GOP would beat them with in the GE. That will make them less effective in the GE. You may, like I was have been pissed while it was happening but in the long run the have weakened the GOP in the fall. For a lot of voters by the fall some of these issues will be "been there, heard that. Next!"  Hillary came off much better than Barack according to the Green Line!


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:35:12 PM EST

Re: Post Debate Thread (none / 0)

Possibly true, but Obama was given a LOT more hard gotcha questions than Clinton. It was like Clinton in NH.


by elrod on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:37:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

Just offer Barack some warm milk and cookies; he'll be fine. =P


by bobbank on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:43:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post Debate