The California Delegate Purge

On Sunday, in all 53 California congressional districts, caucuses will be held to choose delegates to the national convention. As you can imagine there is an unprecedented level of interest in being delegate this year, but what comes with that is an unprecedented interest among the two campaigns to make sure the delegates who are chosen are loyal to them in Denver.

Barack Obama's and Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaigns are purging potential California delegates to ensure that only their loyalists vote at the national convention that will crown one of them as the Democratic presidential nominee.

Locked in a race with an uncertain outcome, representatives for both camps this week directed the California Democratic Party to remove dozens of names from the lists of more than 2,000 potential delegates. Party caucuses scheduled for Sunday will elect a slate of delegates for each candidate.

What's fascinating is who's doing the bulk of the purging.

Most of the cutting was done by Obama. His campaign dropped about 900 potential delegates, compared to about 50 excluded on Clinton's side.

They "want to make sure the people who are running for delegate for their candidate are going to stay true to that candidate," said Roger Salazar, a Democratic operative running as a Clinton delegate. "If they see somebody who is a supporter of the other side, they are going to knock them off" the list.

Except that's not what the Obama campaign is doing at all. They're purging faithful hardworking supporters like my friend Brian at calitics.

Today, I learned that I have been pruned out of my delegate race. I will say that I didn't really expect to win. There were people in my district that were better organized and better known (Chris Daly). And they both made the cut. However, I didn't figure the campaign to whom I donated money, and to whom I traveled to two different states for, would decide that I wasn't loyal enough. Heck, I spent March 4 working for Buffy Wicks (the CA field director) in Texas at the Election Hotline.

This was all the buzz at the Darcy Burner event I attended last night among Obama supporters who feel like this move totally betrays the spirit of the campaign. As Lucas O'Connor said in the comments at calitics:

But with a campaign in which so much strength comes from the lack of top-down control and from the promise of empowerment, this knocks the wind out of a lot of sails, fairly or not.

David Dayen has this take on why this has been such a clusterfuck on the part of the Obama campaign.

The short answer is that activists aren't owed seats in Denver just because they're activists.  It's perfectly legitimate for the Obama campaign to reward supporters who walked precincts, made phone calls, dropped lit, stayed up late at the campaign office, and generally did anything and everything logistically to help the candidate win California...Just being a good activist is not enough.  You're actually not going to the convention to represent the party, you'd be going as an Obama or Clinton delegate, representing the candidate.  Honestly, considering that there were about 1,000 precinct captains in California, if you weren't one, you shouldn't be an Obama delegate.  Bottom line.

What I and many of us object to is the haphazard, seemingly random standard applied here, where delegates with little or no ground experience remained on the ballot, while those with a lot didn't.

While I've written often about how the way the Obama campaign mobilizes supporters does put his money where his "change comes from the bottom up" mouth is, I have to say I've heard enough stories from dis-illusioned former Obama supporters to think that Obama's reputation as a candidate who eschews the top down model of running his campaign is actually an inaccurate one. This screw up would seem to give credence to that view.

At the very least, there is some real disappointment among the CA activist class toward the Obama campaign right now and some damage control is in order. I understand an explanation (apology?) is forthcoming, I'll update when I see it.

Update [2008-4-10 15:18:37 by Todd Beeton]:It should be noted that while Obama is purging far more people than Clinton is, he also has far more people running. From Brian again:

Clinton cut around 40-50 of her approximately 950 delegate candidates. Obama cut about 950 of about 1700 candidates.

Don't get me wrong, it's still a bloodbath for Obama activists, but this just provides some more context.



Display:


Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

I'm not going to the convention either...  to whom do I complain?


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:10:44 PM EST

are you? (2.00 / 0)

an anti-war activist possible delegate and you might switch to Hillary after the next debate when Obama tells you he plans to keep Bush's no-bid contracts in effect, and guard contractors and civilian politicians with mercenaries?  I think he had to purge anti-war activists, her exit plan is complex but can succeed, his isn't close.  So far our wonderful pundits have been glossing that, claiming they have very similar plans, but it ain't so, and he can't be sure his anti-war delegates wouldn''t defect when they figured it out.  This timing is right for him, he can blame it on her for reminding us all that even pledged delegates get to switch.   Maybe Rudy will switch to him then, he'll keep Rudy working.  


Hillary - alternative energy
by anna shane on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:02:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 2)

There were going to be feelings hurt. Obama had soooo many more applications than HRC. Why did he have sooo many more in a state that he lost?

This elections is too close to take any chances, and I care more about my candidate than my personal feelings getting hurt because I can't make it to Denver.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:13:00 PM EST

Obama's not Anti-War (none / 0)

Obama's second top level advisor to say he is not going to pull out when he promised-- top advisor Colin Kahl wrote plan called "Success in Iraq" which keeps 60-80,000 troops in Iraq until 2010.

Obama is closer to McCain than Hillary, Samantha Powers similarly admitted Obama's Date Certain Exit Strategy is not Date Certain at all.  He has no intention she said, of following remarks made during this campaign.  I'd call them promises, Hillary calls them plans which she is ready to execute, but now this second advisor shows to us Obama's words don't match intentions at all.

New York Sun, go to this week's archives.

It's campaign rhetoric.


by chieflytrue on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:44:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's not Anti-War (none / 0)

Perception is reality.

Your reality isn't the voters perception.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 07:09:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Something Important To Mention (2.00 / 4)

It's important to mention that Senator Obama had about 1700 people trying to become a delegate and Senator Clinton only had 950 according to Calitics.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:21:19 PM EST

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 1)

I checked the list for CD 33. I don't know who was purged, but some great ground level people are still on there (including me!).


by dmc2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:21:22 PM EST

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

Good luck in the next round. I'd love to be going to Denver.


by fwiffo2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 5)

Both of the people you quote acknowledge that the people chosen to be delegates were just as if not more qualified to be delegates than they are, but their feelings are hurt because they don't get to go to a party.

You update points out that Obama had to cut more people because he had more people who wanted to be delegates.

Where, exactly, is the scandal here?


by BlueinColorado on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:22:09 PM EST

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 5)

This is called MATH.

You only have so many slots.

Obama has more potential folks to fill those slots, so he has to cut more.

Really, folks, is this that complicated?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:22:23 PM EST

Delegates are selected by ballot (2.00 / 1)

Essentially Obama has removed 950 names from the ballot for his delegate slots.

Guess he doesn't 'trust' voters after all.


by TxKat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delegates are selected by ballot (2.00 / 1)

What a naive and simplistic comment.  Seriously, be better than that kind of garbage.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:01:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry you don't understand the process (2.00 / 2)

but Obama could have allowed most of his supporters vying for delegate slots to remain on the ballots.

He chose to winnow out over half the potentials -- before anyone got to vote -- by some unknown criteria.

Clinton removed less than 10% of those who wanted to be considered in the vote for delegate slots.

One candidate has confidence in the process.  One apparently does not.  Can you explain it?


by TxKat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:06:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry you don't understand the process (2.00 / 1)

Or one has half as many people trying to become a delegate and they ended up with the same number.

You know either way, unless of course you are just looking for an issue.

In MN the GOP got Rontarded and half of the delegates are Paul supporters now because they didn't weed the list.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:08:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry you don't understand the process (2.00 / 1)

So you are saying those who were weeded out were untrustworthy?

Hmmm.  Your claim wasn't apparently the case at all.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathaniel- bach/obamas-big-tent-campaign_b_95966.ht ml


by TxKat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:59:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 0)

This is why he dis-invited the Latina for calling the children playing a tree "monkeys."  Too bad he has to call the people he disinvites racists, too.

He has an army and now he's tightening ranks. Too bad all you peace activists aren't welcome.


by seattlegonz on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:48:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 2)

The issue here isn't that people's feeling were hurt, but that the campaign handled it in a sloppy manner. Obama's team should have contacted the people it cut and let them know that they appreciated all their work, but because of the large numbers of people applying, they only had enough slots to allow the most active vols to run. It really isn't that difficult of a task, and it allows the campaign to establish connections with the people it pissed off.


by Cambridgeliberal on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:28:21 PM EST

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 4)

I really don't understand this story, as I posted elsewhere.  No one is entitled to go to the convention as a delegate, and they have to cut the list of names somehow.  Who cares if the first cut is semi-random?  I'm sure they're not going to devote a huge amount of resources to this activity, at least not until they get down closer to the actual number of pledged delegates that they'll send.


by rfahey22 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:28:44 PM EST

Why not let Obama's supporters (2.00 / 1)

in each District decide?

My hunch: it's not about how the delegates would vote for the Nomination, rather avoiding Plaform fights.




Democratic Candidate, US Senate, Wisconsin 2012
by benmasel on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:43:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why not let Obama's supporters (none / 0)

Maybe - who knows?  Clinton has certainly floated the idea of poaching delegates before, so I wouldn't take any chances.  Either way, this really isn't a big deal.


by rfahey22 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:03:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

rewarding big donors (2.00 / 0)

it is also about rewarding big donors.  


DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:17:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: rewarding big donors (none / 0)

Unless you look up all the potential delegates contributions and then see if those picked had higher contributions, you have ZERO evidence that this is true.

Evidence is used to support arguments, at least for those who make logical arguments that have a chance of persuading others.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:44:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 3)

Jeez, it makes TOTAL sense for the Obama campaign to be pruning that many from 1700. I mean, there are only 107 Obama slots! (in this round; fewer in May.)

We don't currently know if it's "haphazard" or "random" do we? Let's get some more questions asked and reporting done before proclaiming it a "clusterfuck."

Also: it's a "potential-delegate" purge. Words matter.


by along on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:28:52 PM EST

Bizarre (2.00 / 1)

This story seems poorly researched.  I feel like there are missing relevant facts.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:33:32 PM EST

Re: Bizarre - You Shouldn't Be Surprised (2.00 / 3)

This story is not poorly researched - it's biased.  Like many of the posts on this website it is intentionally anti-Obama.  

Let's call it what it is - there's no accident here.  


by ruskin on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bizarre - You Shouldn't Be Surprised (none / 0)

Fair enough.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:01:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are biased (2.00 / 0)

Todd Beeton has pretty much been yeah Obama for quite some time now- isn't it really you that is biased. Todd is able to criticize Obama, are you?
by linc on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:20:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are biased (2.00 / 1)

Todd's a Clinton supporter - where did you get that from?


by rfahey22 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:23:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 1)

I am confused...
Should not the point be the enthusiasm that so many Obama activists wanted to be a delegate?
"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:34:13 PM EST

This is aweful (2.00 / 1)

mostly because it defies the expectations of some very very proud and hard working Obama supporters. Sorry guys- truly mean that.
by linc on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:35:27 PM EST

Re: This is aweful (none / 0)

Well, when expectations fail to match reality, there will be disappointment...

The expectation is, "I worked my behind of, I'm going to Denver"...  the reality is "A lot of people worked their behinds off and they cannot all go to Denver..."


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:46:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Um (2.00 / 2)

the expectation is that "I worked my butt off, I want to run for delegate". The reality is "You worked your butt off, now we don't want you to run for delegate". Nice spin though.
by linc on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:18:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um (none / 0)

the other reality is that it is happening on both sides...  more on his than on hers admittedly, but this seems to be a strange thing to get all bent about...

Well, maybe not.  It has been a primary cycle marked by various degrees of entitlement...  I'm sure there were people who pretty much thought they were entitled... and found out they aren't because someone else is...


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:28:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um (2.00 / 1)

I don't understand your comments. It seems you are deliberately failing to either understand or acknowledge the point here.  It isn't about some Obama supporters (or Clinton supporters for that matter) feeling entitled to go to Denver.  The point is the way it was handled.  If 1700 people want to be delegates for Obama, that's fantastic. Let those 1700 compete and whoever gets the votes goes to the convention.  Simple.

Instead, the Obama campaign purged 900 names from the list with no explanation and no notification.  If they want to purge people they really think might be turncoats, fine.  But you'll have a hard time convincing people that they suspected more than half of the 1700 were disloyal.

This purging seems capricious, especially to people who worked hard to get votes for their candidate.  And let's keep in mind, the complaints are coming from Obama supporters, not Clinton folks.  We didn't just make this up.


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:32:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 1)

Barack Obama doesn't get to send 1700 delegates from California, so he has to cut the list down. I don't know how you can be expected to say "no" to 90% of the people who want to be delegates without a few of them being disappointed.

Seriously, where's the scandal here?


by fwiffo2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:38:17 PM EST

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 1)

That just isn't true. The Obama folks don't have to do anything at all - they do not have to trim the list down.  The potential delegates are selected by vote later in the process.  The campaigns typically stay our of this and let the system work as it always does.  To "cut down the list" by more than half is unheard of.  That's the "scandal".


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:35:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

Unheard of? Based on what? The number of people volunteering to be delegates is unprecedented, there's no scandal in trimming down the number to a similar sized group as Clinton has.

Where's the wrongdoing? How were rules or tradition violated?

There's no "there" there.


by fwiffo2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:43:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 1)

Why doesn't Clinton generate as much enthusiasm as Obama?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:39:42 PM EST

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 0)

Her supporters are planty enthusiastic. But since she won California, more of her delegates get to go to the convention and are happy about the situtaiton. Obama gave his California supporters very high hopes, but failed to deliver, which results in more disappointed supporters.


by LakersFan on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:23:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

Then why does Obama have more potential delegates?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:45:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

Oh...good luck dmc2!


"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:39:51 PM EST

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

Thanks!


by dmc2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:08:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

This should've been handeled better, with the campaign taking time to inform applicants, but I can undestand the situation the Obama campign was in, with the Clinton campaign making suble and not so sublte moves on potential primary awarded delegates.

I guess that, in some cases, I would rather have an experienced pol, that knows how to stand her/his ground at the convention as opposed to an realively inexperienced activist who is more likely to be swayed.

Still, it's a bad PR move on the part of the campaign, but not one that I would stop supporting Obama for.


by NewOaklandDem on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:40:04 PM EST

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

Agreed... it was handled badly.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:58:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

purge?  Interesting choice of words to describe this... how about "premeditated pogram against delegates results in california bloodbath!!!!"    ya, something juicier like that.


by soros on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:44:12 PM EST

Not allowing them to stand for election (2.00 / 3)

Is quite different than 'reducing' the list.

What many here seem to misunderstand is that the delegates get elected -- the actual delegate count would (by election) be reduced to the proper numbers.  

What Obama has done has disallowed 950 individuals from even being considered by those who are electing the final delegate list.

Looks like Clinton has removed less than 10% of her 'potential' delegates and Obama has removed more than 50%.  They weren't even given the opportunity to TRY to get elected.

Sad.


by TxKat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:46:23 PM EST

Thank you for clearing it up (2.00 / 1)

But the O's won't care for the truth anyway.


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:52:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you for clearing it up (none / 0)

Gee you're right...  Hillary's supporters embrace the truth with open arms on a regular basis around here...

That goes both ways....


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:56:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you for clearing it up (2.00 / 1)

It's a misleading metric, since Obama has twice as many people running for fewer delegate seats.  See the math below, each campaign now has the same ratio of candidates-to-Denver slot.


by davisb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not allowing them to stand for election (2.00 / 3)

Looking at the "percent purged" isn't really the best metric; Obama has twice as many people vying for fewer seats in Denver (remember, he lost California).  

Clinton now has 900 people running for 203 Denver slots, or about 4.4 per seat.  Obama has 800 running for 167 Denver slots, or about 4.8 per seat.  Basically, they've each whittled their lists down to a ratio of 4.5-5 candidates per final delegate seat, which seems like a reasonable number of people to keep track of.


by davisb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:54:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's what I thought (none / 0)

That's what was missing, the actual delegate numbers.

It would be a total zoo if they let all 1700 compete for 167 slots.  We'd be seeing diaries here about how poorly managed the Obama delegation was and how they turned the state convention into a circus.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:04:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's what we need ... (none / 0)

... Less democracy.


by TxKat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:03:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's what we need ... (2.00 / 1)

This isn't an open democratic election, this is a matter of the Democratic party and the two campaigns selecting which delegates represent them at the party convention.  A delegate race with 1700 people vying for 163 seats is unwieldy and unworkable.  

It's perfectly reasonable for each camp to whittle their lists down to 4.5 people per delegate seat, which is what both camps have done here.


by davisb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:09:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's what we need ... (2.00 / 1)

Not at all.

Weeding out 'unacceptable' candidates for delegate slots is what Obama's doing.....

Reserving his slots for those who are 'acceptable' and 'trustworthy'. Makes you wonder what the criteria for 'acceptable' delegates was. According to the Huffpo posts.... these weren't random deletions nor were they based on first come/first chosen... but rather it was a carefully considered removal of marginal and unacceptable delegate choices.

No one asked him to 'whittle' down his delegate list.  

That's what ballots are for.


by TxKat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:28:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's what we need ... (2.00 / 1)

I think you're arguing the same thing I'm saying.  The campaign's get full discretion over who may or may not serve as their delegate at the convention.  That's why this isn't some sort of open democratic election; the campaign's have wide discretion over who gets selected.

That's why it's in their interest to have the potential delegate field made up of people whose loyalties are well known to the campaign.  The larger the field of delegate candidates is, the more difficult it is to be sure of loyalty.

So what did they do?  They whittled their list down to a manageable number of well-known loyal commodities.  Does this mean every person "purged" was disloyal?  Not at all.  Just that a smaller list of candidates well-known to the campaign is the best way to ensure delegate loyalty come convention time, something each camp has every right to work toward.


by davisb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:34:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's what we need ... (2.00 / 1)

Seems to me that their vetting process was extremely flawed.  Control over the delegate slate is well understood in party politics, but Obama's camp seems to have taken it to extremes.

The Clinton camp didn't seem to feel the need to slash and burn their way through their list of potential delegates.

Obama's campaign takes advantage of the enthusiasm of its supporters, but it doesn't trust them.... not one little bit.


by TxKat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:42:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's what we need ... (none / 0)

The only "extreme" here is the ridiculous number of supporters who signed up to run to be an Obama delegate, that's why this whole thing is unusual.

1700 Obama supporters were originally trying to run for 167 Denver slots, or about 10.1 people per seat.  Obama cut that number down to 800 candidates well-known to the campaign, for a ratio of 4.8 candidates per seat.

950 Clinton supporters originally wanted to run for 203 Denver slots, or about 4.7 people per seat.  Clinton cut that number down to 900 candidates well-known and loyal to the campaign, for a ratio of 4.4 candidates per seat.

The Clinton campaign didn't have the opportunity to "slash and burn" it's delegate list because it was so much smaller to begin with.


by davisb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:53:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's what we need ... (2.00 / 1)

Keep telling yourself that.

No one asked him to purge his potential delegates.


by TxKat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:25:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's what we need ... (2.00 / 1)

Did I ever imply his campaign was somehow forced against their will to trim down their list?  

No one needed to tell him how to manage his delegate candidates, it's up to him how he does it.  That's the prerogative of anyone running for President, both Clinton and Obama included.  


by davisb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:14:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's what we need ... (none / 0)

Another way to look at this:

Obama cut nearly as many candidates as Clinton had total, yet still ended up with a higher ratio of candidates to Denver delegate seats.  This is why this "purge" seems so extreme, simply because the sheer numbers of people seeking out seats was so large and unmanageable.


by davisb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:00:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not allowing them to stand for election (2.00 / 1)

Please... technically they are elected, but you and I both know that Reality is FAR different than what you are pretending it to be in terms of electors.  The campaigns want firm control over them... while I am not crazy over this move by Obama, I can sure as hell understand it.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:56:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 1)

Could the lack of parity between their cuts have something to do with Clinton (and not Obama) implicitly threatening to steal his pledged delegates? I think the obvious answer is most definitely. Funny how you didn't mention that, Todd.


by gcensr on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:51:59 PM EST

Delegates cannot be stolen (2.00 / 2)

They can only be convinced like at a Caucus.


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:53:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delegates cannot be stolen (2.00 / 1)

They can be "stolen" at the convention since they aren't legally locked in...  Which is the concern and what Hillary has threatened.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:00:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No she hasn't (2.00 / 1)

She has promised to try and convince them of the error of their ways.  Exactly what the Obama strong arm guys did at every caucus.  

Don't you just love caucus style politics?


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Strong arm guys? (none / 0)

Please.  

At a voter caucus, each Democrat has a vote.  They are there not because their allegiance to a candidate but because of their allegiance to the party.

At a delegate caucus, the entire reason a delegate is there is because of the will of those who elected him as a surrogate.  

What happened to the will of the people argument?  It seems like the Clinton camp is very concerned about counting the votes, but not so much in abiding by that count.


McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.
by PantsB on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delegates cannot be stolen (none / 0)

Are you now supporting the "persuasion" of pledged delegates to defect to a different politician than the one endorsed by their constituency?  How does that fit in with making sure "all the votes are counted"?


by rfahey22 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

This is an obvious point but one I am glad you raised. They have to be much more careful with whom they select given that there has been a publicly acknowleged campaign by Clinton to poach pledged delegates.


by wasder on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:58:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 0)

Well, if Hillary is trying to poach delegates, Obama's purge is only going to make supporters jittery.

But don't worry, the MSM wont report this, so Obama's shield of inevitability is safe.


by stefystef on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:11:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 1)

Seriously, I thought Clinton supporters had found the absolute bottom of the barrel after Overzealous-use-of-photocopier-gate.

The MSM won't report this because there's no "there" there. It's meaningless inside baseball. It's utterly irrelevant to anyone who lacks an obsession with the manufacture of the political sausage.


by fwiffo2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:36:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

"...so Obama's shield of inevitability is safe."

I sure hope so.


by wasder on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:53:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah..it's Hillary's fault (2.00 / 1)

Always Hillary's fault.  Childish.


by Iskandar on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:03:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

Todd,

Not sure if its fair to say that he ONLY preaches a Bottom up model or isn't as in favor of one as rhetoric says he is.  Its been pretty obvious from the start that he is running TWO different organizations... one is a traditional Top Down and the other is an activist Bottoms up.  Unfortunately, at times, these will conflict and my guess is that those in the Top Down are finding ways to trump those in the other model....


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:54:33 PM EST

Yet another example (2.00 / 3)

of him not taking a stand for one side or another.


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:55:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yet another example (2.00 / 1)

What utter crap your comment is... And that's pretty big talk coming from a guy who supports a candidate who can't remember sniper fire accurately and tends to have a REAL BIG problem telling the truth.  Oops... There she goes again, spinning another fable about her daring exploits.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:58:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She's a politician and admits it (1.50 / 4)

He was supposed to be different.

She takes stands on issues and doesn't back down.  He's too nervous about pissing off every side that he refuses to take a stand on anything.

He is an empty suit.


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:03:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Define "differant" (none / 0)

I'd say having nearly twice the enthusiastic potential delegates as the winning candidate is pretty different.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:06:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Different in his supposed Change (2.00 / 0)

from the old style politics.  Old style politics we all know means Hillary.

Of course he never takes a stand so we haven't been told what this new style is.  We can only hope and dream.


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:10:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You haven't been paying attention, I get it (none / 0)

I know you have a lot of work to do, now that you've just gotten back from an extended trip to the Amazonian jungles of Brazil, and that you have a lot of catching up to you, so I'll spare you the lecture and let you get to it.

www.barackobama.com


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:47:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

Is that like having two sets of books, one for  public presentation, and one for what is really going on?


by Scotch on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:34:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 0)

Same here in Oklahoma when we went to state convention. The Clinton delegate candidates were voted on but Obama's personal rep in Oklahoma (Brad Carson) pulled every obama delegate he did not personally know. We had a huge rules fight earlie in the convention and about 35-40 percent of the delegates wanted to send delegates nominated from the floor and if they refused to seat them then the hell with it fortunately we got cooler heads to prevail and adopted the rules as necessary and selected delegates from the list that was provided by Mr Carson but he earned no good will at this year's convention.


by xenoph10005 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:11:21 PM EST

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 1)

So it's not an abberation... but policy.

From these 2 examples, Obama's campaign seems to think that everyone NOT on their 'personally known by someone in the campaign' is the 'enemy'.

So much for grassroots politics.


by TxKat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:46:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 1)

Delegate slots have always been used for candidates to reward their most loyal and active supporters. Yet now the Obama campaign is subverting democracy by doing what's always been done.


by fwiffo2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:54:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Todd, stop w/ the pathetic hit pieces (2.00 / 1)

David Dayen has this take on why this has been such a clusterfuck on the part of the Obama campaign.

And the party is becoming a clusterfuck because of lame ass hit pieces like this one of yours, Todd.

While I've written often about how the way the Obama campaign mobilizes supporters does put his money where his "change comes from the bottom up" mouth is, I have to say I've heard enough stories from dis-illusioned former Obama supporters to think that Obama's reputation as a candidate who eschews the top down model of running his campaign is actually an inaccurate one. This screw up would seem to give credence to that view.

You may not like what Obama has done here, or may just want to use it as an excuse to attack him, but what his campaign has done here is move to strengthen the likelihood that the results of the "most grassroots" election in CA (aka the primaries, where EVERYONE can vote) stands rather than it becoming transformed in arenas (ie. legislative district, county and state caucuses/conventions) where party regulars are more familiar with the process and can use that to their advantage, which could easily result in a change to the results of how the grassroots voted.


by sorrodos on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:12:33 PM EST

regardless of how many are running (2.00 / 1)

she has cut a tiny percentage compared this his cut of about 60 percent of his delegates.


DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:14:09 PM EST

Re: regardless of how many are running (2.00 / 2)

As stated above, this isn't really the best metric, and the number of people running really does matter...

Clinton now has 900 people running for 203 Denver slots, or about 4.4 per seat.  Obama has 800 running for 167 Denver slots, or about 4.8 per seat.  They've each whittled their lists down to a ratio of 4.5-5 candidates per final delegate seat, which is a reasonable number of people to keep track of.

Keeping track of 1700 candidates (about 10 per seat) would have been unwieldy and unmanageable.  For that reason, the Obama camp cut their numbers down such that they now have the same number of candidates per delegate seat as Clinton.


by davisb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:21:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: regardless of how many are running (2.00 / 1)

As i Stated above they did this in Oklahoma to and in some cases delegats voting for the clinton group had 12 choice's for a slot and obama's had 3 this is not a unique thing in Cali obama's people did it here too


by xenoph10005 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:26:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If My Old Math Is Right - (2.00 / 1)

45 out of 950 is less than 5% in the Clinton camp.
950 out of 1700 is more than 50% in the Obama camp.

Yet again, another example of the "New" politics.


by johnnygunn on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:45:22 PM EST

Re: If My Old Math Is Right - (2.00 / 1)

If he didn't pare down the list, you'd be commenting on how disorganized Obama is and irresponsible for making a circus of the California convention.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:49:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If My Old Math Is Right - (2.00 / 1)

As stated above, this isn't really the best metric...

Clinton now has 900 people running for 203 Denver slots, or about 4.4 per seat.  Obama has 800 running for 167 Denver slots, or about 4.8 per seat.  They've each whittled their lists down to a ratio of 4.5-5 candidates per final delegate seat, which is a reasonable number of people to keep track of.

Keeping track of 1700 candidates (about 10 per seat) would have been unwieldy and unmanageable.  For that reason, the Obama camp cut their numbers down such that they now have the same number of candidates per delegate seat as Clinton.


by davisb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:59:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 1)

No one here has ever "lost"...right?
I kinda believe....that not being a delegate in either camp will change the commitment of that person. That person will continue their(our) effort because we have no Choice. This is not something we ponder about...we feel it..we know it. Regardless our candidate.
This is neither something to brag about nor for sure something needed to justify.
The same moral compass that requires us to fully support our choice...will be the SAME moral compass that will require us to defeat not only McCain,,,not only Republicans...but those pretend Dem BushDogs...where ever...whenever...we can...
"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:46:27 PM EST

Re: The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 1)

Letting the dogs run loose, as it were, serves a lot of purposes. It allows really nasty anti-Clinton material to get out there without the campaigns finger prints on it. Most campaigns maintain control to prevent the kind of attacks by their supporters that Clinton has endured from Obama supporters. BrooklynBadBoy over at Kos used to brag a lot about how he could decided how to represent Obama to the community. I know of no reason that campaigns would allow that unless they don't actually care about the tenor of the discourse.


by Little Otter on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:56:58 PM EST

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

You apparently don't read the diaries on this blog which are more often than not horrid screeds against Obama.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:41:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

Like this one?


by fwiffo2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:49:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

This is pretty tame stuff, although obviously trying to cast Obama in a bad light. I was referring to the the side diaries (which have obviously been egged on by some of the front ones) that amount to nothing more than spitoons of hatred against the Democratic nominee.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:00:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The California Delegate Purge (2.00 / 1)

Talk about making an issue out of a non-issue.  It'll be interesting to see who makes the final cut though.


This administration is not sinking. This administration is soaring! If anything, they are rearranging the deck chairs on the Hindenburg!
by venavena on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:29:40 PM EST

Chicago Style. (2.00 / 1)

obama's going with a sure thing. He's replacing all the progressive activists and other ideologically motivated people with fatcats- "bundlers and their girlfriends", as marcy winograd calls them.

see, the party hacks are bought and stay bought. they're hooking up to a candidate with the hope that he/she wins, and they get influence and party brownie points. they're local officials; their jobs depend on party loyalty.

the progressives and grassroots people have allegiance to ideas. now that obama's iraq adviser has let slip the fact that the REAL plan calls for 60,000-80,000 troops in iraq through 2010, obama can't count on the full support of people who supported him to end the war. so he's eliminating all those people, knowing that the delegates he has left will support him no matter how much he changes his policy statements.  

it's not about the policy positions. it's about political power. always has been. chicago style.


by campskunk on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:33:46 PM EST

This is just how the process works (none / 0)

This diary is much ado about nothing. They always choose government officials to be the official delegates. The system has NEVER been set up for regular voters. I know your friend is disappointed, but this is what party (or should I say Party) politics is like (and all about). And, imho, it is part of the reason why the whole system is screwed. But, to reiterate my main point: this is NOTHING NEW. As someone who has been a delegate at many levels of the Democratic Party nominating process--all the way to the State level, but not at the national level--this is just how it works.


by DrPolitics on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:34:11 PM EST

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

No matter what happens in the Democratic nominating process or the general election if Obama is the Democrat, Obama supporters are set-up to be the most disappointed people in the world. Obama is simply not who they think he is.  


by gak on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:54:46 PM EST

LATE-BREAKING NEWS FROM CDP (none / 0)

Christine Pelosi just posted on another list that CDP chair Art Torres has called both campaigns and everybody gets to run--no cuts. Don't know why he did it. But if Christine says it's true, I believe her.

The problems remain. But, for now, the purge is ended.


ChrisfromSantaCruz
by cfinnie on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:17:27 PM EST

Wow. Just read the freakin' rules (2.00 / 1)

Most states have similar boilerplate in their delegate selection plans (or their rules wouldn't have been approved by the DNC).

From the Missouri Delegate Selection Plan (approved by the DNC), page 11 [pdf]:

g....Individuals nominated from the floor for National Convention delegate must also have been on the list of delegate candidates approved by the presidential candidates...

Or, from page 12:

...1. Presidential Candidate Right of Review for District-Level Delegates and Alternates

a. The State Democratic Chair shall convey to the presidential candidate, or that candidate's authorized representative(s), not later than March 21, 2008), a list of all persons who have filed for delegate or alternate pledged to that presidential candidate. (Rules 12.D. & 12.F.)

b. Each presidential candidate, or that candidate's authorized representative(s), must then file with the State Democratic Chair by March 24, 2008, a list of all such candidates he or she has approved, provided that approval be given to at least three (3) times the number of candidates for delegate men and three (3) times the number of candidates for delegate women, and three (3) times the number of candidates for alternate men and three (3) times the number of alternate women to be selected. (Rule 12.E.(1), Reg. 4.23.)

c. Failure to respond will be deemed approval of all delegate and alternate candidates submitted to the presidential candidate unless the presidential candidate, or the authorized representative(s), signifies otherwise in writing to the State Democratic Chair not later than March 24, 2008.

d. National convention delegate and alternate candidates removed from the list of bona fide supporters by a presidential candidate, or that candidate's authorized representative(s), may not be elected as a delegate or alternate at that level pledged to that presidential candidate (including uncommitted status). (Rule 12.E. & Reg. 4.23.)...

[see also, page 15, 3. a., b., c. for PLEO delegates and page 17, 3. a., b., c. for at large delegates]

Uh, because candidates don't want somebody else's supporters getting elected as their delegates and then switching their votes on the first ballot, because, well, delegates are not actually "bound" to vote for anyone [page 26]:

...F. Delegates elected to the national convention pledged to a presidential candidate shall in all good conscience reflect the sentiments of those who elected them. (Rule 12.J.)

So, if I were a presidential candidate and I was in a tight race for the nomination where neither candidate was going to have the majority needed for the nomination on the first ballot I'd make damn sure the people running for my delegate slots were bona fide supporters. That's how it works.

What's hysterical in this particular discussion is the parsing going on about "there are too many people running so they had to cut the numbers".

Yeah, right.

People run and get elected. If they're bona fide supporters, they're bona fide supporters. They'll either get elected, or they won't. The people who are actually doing the electing (after the approval of the list by the candidate) get to decide if somebody is worthy of being a delegate or not. It doesn't matter if there are 200 people for every slot or three. You stand for election and you win or lose.

Read the freakin' rules. The candidates did, and they're playing hard ball. Though it appears one candidate's campaign has generated a little cognitive dissonance amongst their supporters with their actions.

If this kind of hand wringing rationalization is indicative of what will go on from August to November on the part of any Democrat's campaign, we're doomed.


543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:19:44 PM EST

Re: Wow. Just read the freakin' rules (2.00 / 1)

Facts are stupid things, so stop bringing them in here where people don't want to hear them!


by fwiffo2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:50:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

With Hillary threatening to poach Obama's pledged delegates, it would be foolish for his campaign to ignore it.

Hopefully those being purged will look to the real source of their discontent -- Hillary.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:53:49 PM EST

NO PURGE! (for Obama at least) (none / 0)

Just got an e-mail from David Plouff stating that ALL candidates who filed will be able to run the delegate spots they wanted.  Kudos to the Obama campaign for doing the right thing.  Let's see if Clinton will follow suit.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq for a century.
by jkfp2004 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:23:36 PM EST

So ... Clinton cut 10%, while (none / 0)

Obama cut 50%.  I'd say that's still a big difference.


Reasonable people can disagree.
by mnicholson0220 on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:44:44 AM EST

Re: The California Delegate Purge (none / 0)

According to McClatchy, Obama has reinstated these delegates: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/election2008/ story/33364.html.  I just hope they don't turn on him.  That would be unfortunate if he cuts them to avoid defections, then reinstates them.  But now the reinstated delegate are angry, so they flip for Clinton.


by happycozy on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 01:43:50 AM EST


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