What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Thinking About

One of the more bizarre aspects of how the nomination battle between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama has evolved is the extent to which the candidates are playing as much to the superdelegates at this point (perhaps even moreso) as they are to voters. The Richardson endorsement, for example, coming as it did so long after it could have done Obama any electoral good, was clearly valuable to him as a vote of confidence after a rough couple of weeks. The message being sent from one of the most prominent superdelegates out there to the rest of those who are still undeclared: don't give up on this guy. And take the California Democratic Party convention this weekend. Why else would Bill Clinton be attending other than the fact that it offers a rare opportunity to address a concentrated gathering of California superdelegates.

The Clinton camp has clearly been more aggressive about making a case to the superdelegates but while before it may have been under the surface, via conference calls and dog whistle messages, now they're not even trying to hide it. Take Evan Bayh's appearance on Late Edition yesterday:

Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana, who backs Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton for president, proposed another gauge Sunday by which superdelegates might judge whether to support Mrs. Clinton or Senator Barack Obama.

He suggested that they consider the electoral votes of the states that each of them has won.

"So who carried the states with the most Electoral College votes is an important factor to consider because ultimately, that's how we choose the president of the United States," Mr. Bayh said on CNN's "Late Edition." [...]

So far, Mrs. Clinton has won states with a total of 219 Electoral College votes, not counting Florida and Michigan, while Mr. Obama has won states with a total of 202 electoral votes.

This is essentially a variation on the big state argument the Clinton camp has been making for a while now, which boils down to "because Hillary Clinton has won the big states that the Democrat needs to win in November, she is the more electable Democrat against John McCain in November." I wonder if the superdelegates be moved by this argument. The problem with it is that it implies a correlation between primary performance and general election performance, which is hardly a proven correlation. Take the latest Rasmussen poll general election match-up poll out of Nevada. While more voters caucused for Hillary Clinton in Nevada in January, Barack Obama is currently polling 3 points better against John McCain than Hillary Clinton does. Obviously a poll taken this far in advance of the general can not be seen as having 100% predictive value, but I do think the insistence that Clinton's strength in certain states in the primary will carry over into the general would be a stronger argument if it were backed up with polling.

A far more compelling argument to superdelegates, I would think, is to constantly remind them about Michigan and Florida. Not because they're "two of the big four" necessarily but rather because had they moved to legal dates they would have represented two additional early Clinton wins, likely big ones, and the mere fact that Obama would have had to compete there would have meant fewer resources for him to expend in other states. In other words, Obama's pledged delegate and popular vote leads, such as they are, have an unavoidable asterisk next to them, one that may not pay dividends for Clinton in the official tally, but one that absolutely would factor into my decision if I were a superdelegate.



Display:


Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be (none / 0)

Would Clinton not have to expend resources in either state?  Also, it's interesting that you emphasize that they would be "early" Clinton wins, since presumably Michigan at least would be much closer were it held later in the cycle, when Obama had more name recognition and more "momentum."  Why should the hypothetical date of two primaries that never happened have any bearing on the superdelegates' decision?  What a bizarre argument.


by rfahey22 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:52:28 PM EST

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be (2.00 / 1)

Why should the hypothetical date of two primaries that never happened have any bearing on the superdelegates' decision?  What a bizarre argument.

Uh, let me see,....because they happened. Regardless of whether or not the DNC or Obama's supporters will actully consider that real people bringing real votes ocurred in our reality-base, plain of existence is besides the point.

The intent of Michigan and Florida voters is well understood unlike a hanging chad. Man, I sometimes wonder if all the Obama supporters are aspiring writers, because fantasy is for books... and not for everyday living.


by Check077 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:07:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be (none / 0)

Do we live in a banana republic?

Holding elections where a candidate isn't on the ballot, or where they are expressly prohibited from campaigning, and then arguing that the elections were "fair".  Unbelievable.

The recent elections in Russia were well beyond "fair" by those standards.


by bawbie on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:09:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be (none / 0)

Yes, and some Clinton supporters would benefit from improving their reading comprehension skills.  Todd stated, "Not because they're 'two of the big four' necessarily but rather because had they moved to legal dates they would have represented two additional early Clinton wins..."  In other words, Todd's premise is that, had those two states moved their primaries to valid dates, Clinton would still have won them by large margins.  He is not talking about the contests that took place.  


by rfahey22 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:11:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be (none / 0)

Why should the hypothetical date of two primaries that never happened have any bearing on the superdelegates' decision?  What a bizarre argument.

Uh, let me see,....because they (or those primaries) happened. Regardless of whether or not the DNC or Obama's supporters will [actually] consider that "real people bringing real votes"[occurred] in our [reality-based], [plane] of existence is besides the point.

The intent of Michigan and Florida voters is well understood unlike a hanging chad. Man, I sometimes wonder if all the Obama supporters are aspiring writers, because fantasy is for books... and not for everyday living or the real world.


by Check077 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:15:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be (none / 0)

"...We will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar."

-- Patti Solis Doyle, former HRC campaign manager

HRC had no problem with the DNC's decision to disregard Michigan's and Florida's results at the time it was made (August 2007), and it was not until the results were known that she changed her tune.  Political expediency?  You decide.


by KTinOhio on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:22:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be (none / 0)

She placed her name on the ballot BECAUSE she had a problem with it in the first place.

Regardless, who did what, blah blah, it remains that Barack Obama has blocked Michigan and Florida voters from having their American rights fulfilled.

There is no getting around that.

But no, he'd rather have a 50/50 vote...haha.

People disgust me.
 -typical white person


by destardi on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:00:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be (none / 0)

You're not making sense.  HRC supported the DNC's decision when she didn't think it would matter and changed her tune when it became apparent that it did matter.   That's all there is to it.  Or do you think she would be fighting so hard if she hadn't "won" those two primaries?


by KTinOhio on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:08:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Of all your hypotheticals, the most crass... (none / 0)

...is the statement "If Michigan and Florida had not moved their primaries... they would have been for Hillary"

IF they had not moved their primaries, the likelihood is that MICHIGAN would have been for Obama, and FLORIDA only marginally for Hillary Clinton.

IF ONLY...

Then there would have been no 'lastgaspism' of 'let's count MI and FL to make ONE metric work for our candidate...'

But hypotheticals remain hypotheticals. I wish they could have voted in due order, because by now noone would be arguing...

Barack Obama is the democratic nominee


by brit on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:41:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be (none / 0)

No offense, but I sincerely think your partisanship is impacting your reasoning.  I would take a day off the blog and come back to when you can clarify what you mean.  As is, it's just reductive.


by cwsaterfield on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:23:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My first diary was about this. (none / 0)

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/17/1332 23/239

Some have said that the superdelegates "should not go against the will of the people" (quote attributed to Obama)  This is reasonable advice for currently uncommitted superdelegates; many of them are elected officials and endorsing a candidate after looking at how their districts voted will be good for their re-election campaign.

Others have come back with the assertion that, if we're going with the will of the people instead of personal preference, superdelegates who endorsed before their state had its primary, like Kerry and Kennedy, should switch sides once their state goes the other way. While I do believe that this is certainly a consideration, especially if one is concerned with getting re-elected (I don't think Kerry or Kennedy are), there is an element of loyalty that's also important.  

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that each candidate is going to suggest options that will help them win the primary, but let's not get into absolutes here.

Being a superdelegate is a pretty big responsibility, and any choice they make is going to have consequences.  If they vote against their district, they risk the wrath of the voters. Whichever candidate they endorse will risk disfavor with the opposing side; especially if they change their vote at some point.  Superdelegates have to lie in whatever bed they make.

Furthermore, offering an opinion about how superdelegates "should" vote is not in the same category as suggesting that Florida and Michigan should not be seated because they broke the rules.  One is opinion, the other is fact.  

(As an aside: any contestation to the fact that Michigan and Florida weren't going to count should have taken place before the primaries began.  The fact that they are being given ad hoc options at this late stage of the game is generous enough.)

While I don't really agree with the idea of superdelegates, I understand that their purpose is for the leadership of the party to step in during an ugly primary and help the process along if they feel that one candidate is unviable.  That said, we have two very viable candidates in this contest, and it's starting to look that one is a smidge more viable than the other due to a pledged delegate lead that will be extremely difficult for the other candidate to counter due to proportional attribution.

The 300 or so remaining superdelegates should carefully consider the advantages and disadvantages of going against a pledged delegate lead.  Either way, voting blocks risk getting disillusioned even if the losing candidate steps up campaigning for the nominee extensively; obviously there's also a concern over whether that losing candidate will even do so.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:57:32 PM EST

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (none / 0)

The way it looks to me:

As argued around here quite often, the superdelegates are there to act as a safety guard for the party, to correct "mistakes" made by the actual voters.

So in attempting to win this without winning the pledged delegate total, the Clinton team needs to convince the superdelegates  that the Democratic party voters have made a mistake by voting the most pledged delegates for Obama.

That is the bar they have to cross.

I'm a partisan, so clearly I don't see it as a mistake.  The second part of the task is to convince the millions and millions of people who voted for Obama that their votes were a mistake and they should support Clinton in the fall at the same time they are being told their primary votes were a mistake.

That's two tough tough hurdles to pass in my book.


by bawbie on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:57:47 PM EST

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (2.00 / 1)

That's ridiculous -- the supers responsibility isn't to correct a "MISTAKE" it is to ensure that the best candidate is nominated.

What determines the best candidate? Personal preference, electability, popularity, a whole host of factors.

Even pledged delegates don't have to vote for the candidate that they are pledged to. If BO continues to implode by unleashing vicious attacks on Hillary and completely destroying his campaign of hope many of his delegates may and can choose to support Hillary.

There is no "will of the people" in this process -- especially if you disenfranchise FL and MI and use caucus results and GOP votes to equate to popular support. Remember about FL and MI -- it was GOP party hacks, not the people, that moved the date. The people studied the candidates and did their duty -- they voted. It is political suicide to discount those votes...BO will lose the general election since he's taken the position that he doesn't respect their votes. Those people are pissed and they'll not support his candidacy. Without OH and PA he's in impossible trouble for the general...and that is why the supers are taking notice and waiting to see who wins PA.


by seattlegonz on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:31:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (none / 0)

"If BO continues to implode by unleashing vicious attacks on Hillary and completely destroying his campaign of hope many of his delegates may and can choose to support Hillary."

For Obama to "continue to implode", he would have to be imploding to begin with. Instead he is rebounding from the Wright story and has re-taken the national lead, acc. to Gallup.


by minordomo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:00:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (1.00 / 0)

Apparently you havent' seen the latest Gallup poll.

Doesn't matter..Take notice "obama supporters,"

Natalie Manes said "I'm sorry the president is from Texas" and she got kicked to the side of the road for several years.

Obama's association with the Black Panther's, his "pastor" saying Godd*mn America! Saying the government created HIV to give to black folk, raising racism by saying whites have never been called a n*gger, is NOT UNIFICATION it's DIVISION by the lowest common denominator!

Take a peek outside of your obama-nation and wake up...or say hello to McCain for 4 years.

I'll donate to McCain's campaign the second that obama wins the nomination.

I will not let someone slander two people who espoused MLK's vision, for a cheap shot at the White House.


by destardi on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:06:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (none / 0)

What about the latest Gallup poll? It shows a near tie... A tie does not indicate an "implosion".  An "implosion" would be Obama falling below 40% and staying there for an extended amount of time.


by leshrac55 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:15:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (none / 0)

Obama supporters don't believe that. They can't understand it, they think you're really a Republican.

We're Republicans who have been hanging out at dkos and MyDD trying to elect Democrats for 4 years. lol


by JimR on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:43:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Trolling because... (none / 0)

Let's just hold back with this reverse racism allegation. I never heard Obama use the 'Hillary's never been called..." and while I don't see either Wright or Ferraro as racists, it's debatable, BUT I see nothing racist about Hillary or Obama. So stop already with the racist smears


by brit on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:46:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trolling because... (none / 0)

Well it is absurd to compare Wright's rants to Ferraro's political analysis and being a member of a black liberation theologically based church is different from having a supporter say something others take issue with.

Obama endorses his Reverend and he has sat in sermon after sermon and tithed over 20,000 a year to a church which preaches black liberation theology. That's the issue here...


by seattlegonz on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:54:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (none / 0)

Isnt HRC ahead in Democratic votes? based on exit polls, she is pulling Democrats and Obama is pulling GOP and Indies


ginaswo
by ginaswo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:33:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (none / 0)

If exit polls were accurate, Kerry would be finishing his first term soon.


by rfahey22 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:35:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (none / 0)

Are you including all of the Texas Republicans who voted for Clinton at the urging of Rush Limbaugh?


by smoker1 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:43:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (none / 0)

No Im talking about the Dem base

and I agree about the efficacy of polls

I a talking about exit polls which many posters here cite as evidence BO is the choice of the well educated and HRC is the choice of Archie Bunker voters

these same exit polls seem to reflect HRC is winning Democratic voters, I am wondering if that is in play in SD decision making at all?

PS I am posting for a real discussion not snark


ginaswo
by ginaswo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:56:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Taking your point seriously... (none / 0)

...what definition of 'democrat' do you use? Whence the polling data?

The accusation that republicans are voting for democratic candidates to upset the process clearly works both ways. I don't have to alert you to Rush Limbaugh I hope.

Then there are independents who I assume you need to convince (since you lost the last election). I'm British, so we don't have this 'registered voter' thing, but my understanding of democracy is that you can CHANGE YOUR MIND, and thanks to persuasion, suasion, and other wild variables, VOTE FOR SOMEONE DIFFERENT.

Also, as an outsider, I must say that both historically in the division between north and south, and then the split in the 60s, and more recently in the DNC/DLC thing, I have a hard task understand what EXACTLY A DEMOCRAT IS. As the primaries this year have shown, there seems to be ALMOST as much animosity between democrats as between (at least moderate) republicans.

The idea that you have one idea, and are a democrat or republican by genetics or environment, seems to me to be undemocratic and frankly (as a Brit I can say this) UNAMERICAN


by brit on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:52:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (2.00 / 1)

Todd,

I have a problem with your last paragraph because we can all make assumptions and play hypotheticals, but we have no idea what the outcome can be.  So I don't think that's an argument many superdelegates will be swayed by.

If Michigan and Florida would have counted I believe the strategy for each candidate would have been different.  If we're going to put an asterisk next to Obama's name because of Michigan and Florida then we have to put one next to Clinton's as well.  How do we know for sure Clinton would have won Michigan?  We don't.  If Obama had won Iowa, then lost NH, then won Michigan who knows what would have happened in Nevada?

Like I said playing the assumptions and hypotheticals game goes both ways.


John McCain believes "Women shouldn't have a choice."
by jturn17 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:58:38 PM EST

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (none / 0)

I don't understand how an appeal to an unproven counterfactual concerning non-existent primaries in FL and MI should have any bearing to a superdelegate.

Arguments are not facts.


You haven't seen impatient until you've seen a monkey waiting for a donut.
by bjones on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:59:34 PM EST

Because (none / 0)

the logic goes,the most important thing is electing a democrat in the Fall!

I think it is reasonable for the Clintons to suggest they would have won both states and that super delegates should consider that.  I think it's just as reasonable for the Obama campaign to critique their rationale.

What's not ethical, in my opinion, is that way the Clinton camp has tried to play the system in a way that mocks democracy and then cast Obama as an agent of disenfranchisement for not jumping on the rush to re-vote.  
If I were a super delegate, I would consider not only the electibility issue, but also, and this is what seems to be missed in all this politiking, who would make a better president!


by cwsaterfield on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:06:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Because (none / 0)

Oh, so Clinton is the head of the DNC, and decided several months ago, to bar Florida and Michigan from counting towards the most important Presidential Election in a very long time?

Oh, no, wait..that was HOWARD DEAN who didn't look into the future and see the major f*ckup that he and Brazile would be able to lay claim to in 2008.

It's "always the clintons' fault".

Just like that passport breach, huh?

or that "darkening of Obama's skin" huh?

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/ did_clinton_darken_obamas_skin.html

What.Ever.


by destardi on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:12:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (none / 0)

Wow...I never would have bought into that ridiculous "latte sipping elitist liberals," as I'm a progressive.

But your arrogance is typical of a non-true blue Dem, because ANY GOOD DEM knows you don't ignore VOTERS because it increases your shot at winning.

you just shat all over the people of Florida and Michigan for selfish reasons.

Just like Obama.


by destardi on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:10:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (none / 0)

Except that super delegates aren't making a decision based on facts but on arguments. Supers have to look at the board an pick the candidate they think will do the most for the party, for the country or for them.

Any super who wants a Dem to win the white house has to consider FL and MI. If BO is made the nominee he will assuredly lose both, not so with Hillary. If BO loses both he loses the White House...not to mention he'll probably lose OH, PA, MA, CA and other must wins.


by seattlegonz on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:59:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (none / 0)

Superdelegates need to have an answer to one question first - what is the argument I can present to Obama supporters to convince them that Clinton should be the nominee despite losing the pledged delegate count?  If there's no answer to that, then it doesn't matter what argument works for Clinton supporters.  A convention fight followed by mass defection of the youth and AA communities with only 2 months to recover means a 35-40 state McCain victory followed by 4 years trying to repair the rifts before it's too late.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:05:38 PM EST

No BO (none / 0)

The answer is that Obama is unelectable, Florida and Michigan must be seated, and if it takes losing African Americans to reject Obama's use of race, then so be it. We lost much of white southerns for the same reason and if that's what it results in, fine. We don't practice or accept Obama's 'typcial white person' comments, his racial tactics, and his association with an anti-American lunatic.


by JFK464 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:11:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No BO (none / 0)

You need to do better than simply stating that Obama is "unelectable".  You are NOT the judge of that.

I'd also like to point out that Kerry won in 2004 because he was the "most electable".  People's sense of what is or is not electable 10 months before an election is usually quite poor.


by bawbie on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No BO (none / 0)

That's not an argument.  It's an assertion.  Unless the polls change drastically over the next month, Clinton and Obama are polling similarly against McCain with Clinton having higher negatives.  In that situation, how is Clinton an obviously better candidate other than the fact that you don't like Obama?


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:17:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No BO (none / 0)

Obama's "use of race"?

That is an outrageous and offensive thing to say.

As for the term "anti-American".... What does that mean to you?  To me, it means policies and actions which not only harm the people of this country, but the people of the world.  Pastor Wright is guilty of rhetorical flourish, but his cause, the uplifting of America's poor and disenfranchised, is just.  You are judging him based on youtube clips. That is pathetic.  Judge him by his ACTIONS and his lifetime of service.

You are co-opting the language of Fox News and spreading it on what is supposed to be a blog for progressives.  Please, write from knowledge and empathy, not ignorance and anger.  


by cwsaterfield on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:19:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No BO (none / 0)

Go ahead and embrace Wright. That's a winning strategy. Make excuses for Wright's racism and Obama's 20 year support of an evil ideology, that's fine. Make excuses for Obama's $22,500 contribution in 2006 to Wright, that fine. Obama has 0 chance of winning. Millions of good Dems who hate racism will reject him to cleanse our party of racial politics. Don't be 'hoodwinked.'

Typical White Person

http://noratings.blogspot.com/


by JFK464 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:31:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No BO (none / 0)

"Typical White Person"

You're quoting Fox News taking Obama out of context so egregiously that even Chris Matthews called them out!

"Evil Ideology"
Research Pastor Wright's life, his history of actions and his impact on the people in his community, and then tell me he's part of an evil ideology.  Heck, why not just throw him into the axis of evil while you are at it?  Iran, Iraq, North Korea, and the South Side of Chicago.  Perhaps you can also add Compton and make it a fab. fav.

Okay, enough, I'm falling exactly the kind of dialogue I claim to object to!

I pledge to judge people, not sound bites. Make informed decisions, not angry, misinformed rants.  Practice understanding, not judgmental vitriol. Please try to pledge the same NoBO.


by cwsaterfield on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:38:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No BO (none / 0)

I don't Chris Matthews is unbiased observer. Obama sends tingles up his leg.

Just a couple of Wright's greatest hits:

America created AIDS to kill blacks
We brought 9/11 onto ourselves
Hillary has never been calleda N-word
God damn America

Obama spent 20 years of listening to a racial preacher. Using race to divide people is an evil ideology, in my opinion. Obama chose that church, stay with it, and make huge donations. He could have chose a non-racist church. He didn't. Obama played the race card in MS & SC with his 'hoodwink' and 'bamboozle' game. That's a disturbing aspect of Obama's judgment and why millions of us will work for his defeat. We must reject racial politics from our party. We rejected George Wallace, we must reject Obama.


by JFK464 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:45:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No BO (none / 0)

I keep wondering about the use of the "Hillary was never called a nigger" quotation.  

Um, what is incorrect or wrong about that statement?  Sure, as a woman she has had more than her share of discrimination, but she has probably never experienced any racial discrimination.

Oh, and your conclusion that Obama is unelectable is laughable when you're arguing so vehemently for someone with astronomically high negative ratings.  I think Hillary COULD win the general election, but it would be a huge challenge considering how half of the country seems to despise her.  Obama has challenges too, but I don't think they are remotely as large as hers.  

Where's your actual argument or are you just a troll?


by Bob Fenster on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:11:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No BO (none / 0)

You didn't watch the whole sermons did you?  You just saw the compressed talking-point version.

Go to YouTube and learn something.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TRINITYCHGO


by Timetheos on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:06:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You got it all wrong (none / 0)

It's not about electability, experience, delegates and all those nonsense. It's ONLY about porcupines and sponges. Wise up!

Watch and learn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc3-2Wol9 MM

YES WE CAN .... (**)


by supero on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:28:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No BO (2.00 / 1)

I think it is a gross exaggeration that Clinton has lost the AA community.  It is better to suggest that those voters are voting because of race.  I think is is the wrong thing to think that those voters who are voting for Clinton are voting because of race when there are many reasons to vote for Clinton over Obama besides race, like experience, or issues, like universal health care.

If by this summer it is apparent by the polls and other factors including the votes in Fl or Mich which there is no rule saying that the SDs must not consider the votes of 2.2 million democrats.  They can and will consider those votes when deciding who to vote for as a SD.  If at the end of the day the state polls show Clinton doing better against McCain than Obama it might be a factor in their vote.  


democrat voter
by democrat voter on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:39:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (none / 0)

Absurd.  

Right now, the difference between the two campaigns is less than 125 out of over 3100.

Neither candidate has come near the 2025 they need.  Why should the superdelegates even look at the pledged delegate count?  It is just a metric, and one that is just as flawed as total states won, total popular vote won, total anything.  Almost evry state was different, my God, in Texas, you had BOTH caucuses and a Primary!  And the results from each were weighted differently!

Superdelegates should look for the most viable, the strongest, the toughest, the most electable, the best prepared, the best Dem candidate going forward against McCain.

That's it.  In my book, that's Senator Clinton.


by dembluestates on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:12:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (none / 0)

You mean the one with the most experience completely making up tales about her 'experience' undergoing sniper fire in Bosnia?


by tysonpublic on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:18:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama is toast (2.00 / 1)

The SD should listen to Clinton supporters who will never vote for Obama under any circumstance. We can't allow racial politics in our party. Like what happened to George Wallace's wing of the party, we must expel those who play racial politics. Obama's association with Wright, his 'hoodwink' dog-whistle, his 'typical white person' comment has made millions see him for who he truly is and we will never vote for him on principle. We reject all racial politics.


by JFK464 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:07:26 PM EST

Re: Obama is toast (2.00 / 1)

---
The SD should listen to Clinton supporters who will never vote for Obama under any circumstance.
---

Stupidity.

Should SD listen to Obama supporters who will never vote for Clinton under any circumstance?

Both the Clinton and Obama supporters need to suck it up and vote for whoever gets the Dem nomination.  It's not like McSame is better than either one.


by Timetheos on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:14:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is toast (none / 0)

"We can't allow racial politics in our party."

I'm sorry, but that is an offensive thing to say.

Also, you are clearly and willfully misinterpreting Obama's "typical white person" comment.  This weekend Chris Matthews called out his own network (FoxNews!) for Obama bashing in precise reference to the network misleading people as to what Obama was trying to talk about.  So heart-warming that I come to a blog for Democrats and read people doing the same thing!

Can't we be better than this?

Vote for Hillary because you believe in her.  As a fence-sitter, I find your rationale both alienating and angry.  Frankly, that's the sense that emanates from Clinton and her supporters and it's making it harder and harder for me to consider her.  My advice: be part of the solution, not someone who spews more misinformed vitriol.
 


by cwsaterfield on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:30:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is toast (none / 0)

You may want to read this!

Looks like Hitchens was sober when he wrote this.

http://www.slate.com/id/2187277
To have accepted Obama's smooth apologetics is to have lowered one's own pre-existing standards for what might constitute a post-racial or a post-racist future. It is to have put that quite sober and realistic hope, meanwhile, into untrustworthy and unscrupulous hands. And it is to have done this, furthermore, in the service of blind faith. Mark my words: This disappointment is only the first of many that are still to come.
--------
my thoughts exactly. His speech was an affront to everybody who thinks (and aspires to be) they are post-racial, black or white.


by pm317 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:42:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is toast (none / 0)

I would argue that we aren't post-racial.  To claim that we are seems to be the desire of many white people and a select few conservative African American intellectuals.  The minority kids I've taught in Oakland would laugh at the idea and I would have to agree that any claim of being post-race must wait until we've made greater strides to a) eliminate instutionalized inequity and b) heal the anger that Pastor Wright so clearly represents.  

For me, Obama can move us in this direction much more carefully and thoughtfully than either Hillary Clinton or John McCain.


by cwsaterfield on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:00:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is toast (none / 0)

Thank you.  What planet are people on that they can talk about a post-racial candidacy?  Somehow he's a race candidate because he dares to talk about the issue.   Those who ignore it, are they somehow post-racial?  I'd suggest that they were oblivious, obtuse or purposely neglectful.


by Bob Fenster on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:14:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is toast (none / 0)

Since anyone who says anything critical of Obama is quickly accused of using race in an insidious pattern of offensive remarks, to paraphrase David Axelrod, I don't think avoiding the issue is oblivious. The Obama campaign made it clear early on that anyone not supporting Obama who tried to discuss race in regard to the primary was trying to racialize the contest.

Now that he has been hung by his own petard he has a sudden urgency to make the campaign about race. I wonder how his campaign will react if anyone else dares discuss race. Are 'fairytale' and 'LBJ' still racist code words?


by souvarine on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:47:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is toast (none / 0)

Yes, just like the code words whining, or periodic upset, or crying emotional, these are code words to diminish Clinton as well.  O has been using race for this whole campaign, it has been apparent for a long time.  Even mentioning race the O supporters jumped on people.  Anything said against O meant you were a racist.  This will in the end be the thing that sinks this man's chances for the WH, he is not post racial, he is racial, that is the point.  His view has been informed by Wright, not different but informed by it, his comments like "typical white woman" suggest that O himself is conflicted about race. He has shamelessly used race to get ahead, now it will cost him the WH.


democrat voter
by democrat voter on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:08:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is toast (none / 0)

In all honesty, I sense the white resentment that Obama referred to in his speech.  I have no doubt that some Obama campaigners have silenced genuine conversation through a kind of misplaced righteousness.  However, I do not know them and am certainly not one of them.  In addition, as far as significant speeches as well as day to day campaign tactics, I have not seen anyone "using" race.  I don't even know what that means!  All I know is that he gave a substantial and thoughtful speech on the topic and he is now being accused of somehow using race in an unethical way.  How?

Name one thing he's done?

More importantly, we should celebrate his race just as we should celebrate Hillary's gender.  There position as landmark figures is something I am hugely proud of.  It pains me to see what seems like willful misinterpretations of Obama and willful simplicity regarding race in America used as justification to vote for Hillary.

Vote for her because you believe in her! Don't spread false and reductive interpretations of Obama as justification.  Let's be positivists!


by cwsaterfield on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:31:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is toast (none / 0)

I'm seeing plenty of white hot hostility towards Obama that I think is utterly misplaced.  I hope it's not white resentment, but rather pro-Clinton folks being carried away.  Obama has "used" race in the same way that Clinton has "used" gender or Edwards tried to use being southern.  It's part of who they are, and I have no problem with that.

And yes, it would be nice if people on both sides of the Democratic divide would stop tearing the other side down.  What, pray tell, do they hope to gain, by asserting inelectability?  

The miracle comeback just isn't going to happen.  Deal with it.


by Bob Fenster on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:26:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is toast (none / 0)

Many of his supporters got excited about him exactly for the reason that he went beyond race (in fact the phrase post-racial came from his campaign) -- that he was not going to talk about black anger or white resentment and start with a different frame of reference that America(at least the democrats) by being ready to elect a black president were moving beyond the racial history. Forced to talk about Wright and his anger and hatred and trying to justify it has made him a conventional politician -- that extra glow he had has left him. He was never a good messenger for healing race woes in this country. Because he is a regular politician -- he used Wright's association to enhance his credibility in the black community and now in his presidential campaign he disengaged himself from that and try to pretend he was post-racial and now that he is caught, he is trying to be the healer. But there is just not enough credibility to go around anymore. The dilemma here is the president has to be post-racial respecting all races and ethnicities but with Wright's association, we don't know how much of that anger and resentment is shared by Obama.


by pm317 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:51:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is toast (none / 0)

About 20 years worth I'd say.


democrat voter
by democrat voter on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:02:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is toast (none / 0)

Are you familiar with Bill Clinton's speech of 1996 about race?  That speech and some of O speech are remarkably similar, the biggest difference being that Clinton didn't have to give that speech but O did have to give the speech he gave to try to save his candidacy.  Clinton before O was a clear minded advocate for a post racial society.  that is why this racial tactic of O's was so extremely offensive to me.  The fact that all the AAs decided to abandon Hillary Clinton show me their loyalty is only skin deep.


democrat voter
by democrat voter on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is toast (none / 0)

The fact that all the AAs decided to abandon Hillary Clinton show me their loyalty is only skin deep.

Sense of entitlement much?  <rolling eyes>

Why are they supposed to be "loyal" to Hillary Clinton?  Since when is "loyalty" demanded of voters? Aren't voters supposed to decide who they think is the best candidate?

Are all the non-AA that voted for Obama (and he has recieved more votes from whites than from AAs) similarly disloyal?

Do the rabid-partisans that post on MYDD recently lose their ability to reason?  This used to be a site for actual intelligent discussion...


by SKI on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:05:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality Check (2.00 / 1)

There is no way you can deny the nomination to the candidate that carries Pennsylvania, Florida, Ohio, California, and New York.  It makes 0 cents to deny the nomination to the stronger nominee.  You are throwing away the Woman Vote, Latino Vote, Catholic Vote, Jewish Vote and the working Man vote.  You are asking for suicide if you nominate the candidate that can not win the rural vote.  I wanted Mark Warner or John Edwards, I got two candidates with numerous flaws.


by nzubechukwu on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:10:21 PM EST

Huh? (none / 0)

Obama can't win the "rural vote"?

I guess there must be a bunch of city slickers in Idaho and Colorado and Iowa and Minnesota and North Dakota and on and on.

And Obama won the women's vote in Iowa and several other states.  I think it is absolutely false to think that Obama getting the nomination is "throwing away the women's vote"


by bawbie on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:15:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality Check (none / 0)

---
You are throwing away the Woman Vote, Latino Vote, Catholic Vote, Jewish Vote and the working Man vote.  
---
Women, Catholics, etc etc won't vote for Obama if he get's the nomination?

Blacks won't vote for Hillary if she gets the nomination?

Are you stupid?

My God people!  You're going to vote for a Republican because your feelings were hurt!!!????


by Timetheos on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:17:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality Check (2.00 / 0)

There's no way you can deny the nomination to the candidate that carries  VA, WA, OR, KS, IA, CO, MN, and WI since those are all crucial states.  It goes both ways.

By the way, I'm Jewish and I'm a delegate for Obama in a regional caucus.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:19:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality Check (2.00 / 1)

those other contests were before Wright hit the airwaves though, so I think maybe the poster is referring to the current environment for a GE run against McCain, the people known as Reagan Dems are upset with the govt but they are patriotic in their bones and the GOP 527s will keep the Wright words in their ears as we approach November, and we are running against a war hero, not a Kerry hero that can be swiftboated but a man who stayed in the Hanoi Hilton and wouldnt leave early and leave his fellow soldiers there; that is very powerful to middle America; the patriotism and religious convictions of Latinas and Catholics are also very strong, this group will also be mightily offended by the Wright statements and the failure in the BO speech to repudiate the man; the follow up misstatements about 'typical white person of her generation' coupled with the way Obama paired Ferraro with Wright in his speech also alienates blue collar voters who see no valid comparison in the two (and neither do I); the vetting that is still not done is leaving us vulnerable, I think the Palestinian commentary by several Obama advisers is likely to be an issue with the Jewish voters also; I think the failure to carry Democrats in the large electoral states is an issue. I have seen these voters go GOP in the past, 2004 most recently and painfully IMO


ginaswo
by ginaswo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:31:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality Check (2.00 / 1)

I totally agree with this comment.  There are also other factors that will have these Clinton voters voting for McCain over Obama.  It has to do not only with a deep sense of patriotism but also, they do not want a man who is basically saying that America is wrong.  Also they want to feel some confidence in the president and they do not know Obama, and may just think they know McCain better.  It is a tough call here.  These are swing voters.  They voted for Reagan, they voted for Bush 41, then they voted for Clinton.  These are the voters that determine to a large extent who will be the president.  If O cannot get these voters now, how will he get them this fall?


democrat voter
by democrat voter on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:06:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should (none / 0)

Umm...maybe you forgot, but EVERY CANDIDATE RUNNING took a pledge that Michigan and Florida didn't matter and that they wouldn't participate.

Are you saying that EVERY DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE made a poor judgment call by signing that pledge?


by bawbie on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:11:57 PM EST

Re: What The Superdelegates Should (2.00 / 1)

Here is the pledge:

I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential election primary or caucus  before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as "campaigning" is defined by rules and regulations of the DNC.

The campaign in Florida and Michigan is over, their voters voted. It is no longer possible to participate in those states. The pledge quite consciously avoids any mention of delegates, and of course makes no claim as to whether Florida and Michigan 'matter', since that is the domain of the Democratic National Convention Committee.


by souvarine on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:24:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should (none / 0)

Universal was arguing that Obama not participating in MI was a lack of judgment.  

I was refuting that.


by bawbie on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:26:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should (none / 0)

I agree that Obama removing his name from the Michigan ballot was poor judgement, but that had nothing to do with the pledge. He coordinated with the other campaigns to spring it on Clinton at the last minute, the whole scheme was to catch Clinton flat-footed and it backfired. He undermined his campaign's legitimacy by engaging in dirty tricks that disenfranchised voters.


by souvarine on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:35:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should (none / 0)

what part of 'participate' don't you and the Clintons understand?

it wasn't some secret, I remember it was a forgone conclusion in the blogosphere that candidates were going to remove their names.  The only mystery was whether Clinton would or not.  


by bawbie on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:56:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should (none / 0)

This is a lie, and you clearly don't understand what happened in October of 2007.

Hillary and Dodd remained on the ballot.

That "pledge" was observed by all Dems; they did not campaign in Michigan, unlike Obama's advertising in Florida.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articl es/2007/10/10/five_democratic_hopefuls_p ull_names_off_michigan_ballot_boston_glo be/

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/09/m ichigan.primary/index.html

It was political calculation for everyone involved; only Michigan benefits from Hillary acknowledging this is America, and they have a right to have their votes count.

Any dem denying this simple basic fact, has their head up their ass.


by destardi on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:22:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should (none / 0)

Here's what I don't understand:

If, as you say:

only Michigan benefits from Hillary acknowledging this is America, and they have a right to have their votes count.

Any dem denying this simple basic fact, has their head up their ass.

and Hillary signed a pledge which says that Michigan doesn't count, does that mean Hillary has her head up her ass?


by bawbie on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:51:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should (2.00 / 1)

It wasn't a lack of judgment. It was a calculated move to win Iowa and it got him exactly the result he was seeking.

The problem is, winning Iowa at the expense of Michigan (and FL) is a really bad strategy for trying to win a Presidential election.


by LakersFan on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:48:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should (none / 0)

I can tell you with 100% certainty, being an Iowan who worked on the Obama campaign, that FL and MI has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with his victory here.


by bawbie on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:57:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should (none / 0)

Wow. You speak for the entire state of Iowa. Impressive!

If Obama had stayed on the ballot in Michigan, there's a decent chance Edwards would have won Iowa, and Obama wouldn't have ever become a frontrunner.


by LakersFan on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:09:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should (none / 0)

Evidently you also speak for the entire state of Iowa being that you're making assumptions on how all the voters would have behaved in your hypothetical situation.


John McCain believes "Women shouldn't have a choice."
by jturn17 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:13:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should (none / 0)

As far as I understand, "there's a decent chance" in no way implies speaking for an entire state. It's quite different than the person I was responding to who knew "with 100% certainty".


by LakersFan on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:59:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A hypothetical (2.00 / 0)

Suppose for a moment:

1. That it was known last August that all state delegations would be seated regardless of the date of their primary.  

2. That candidates still honored their pledge not to campaign in states who's primaries are early.

What kind of process would that be? We seat delegates, but don't allow candidates to campaign?  Does that no favor the insiders, or those with high name identification?  Does that really get us the best and the brightest?  Or just the best known.


by smoker1 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:51:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A hypothetical (none / 0)

It was known last August that Michigan and Florida would be seated regardless of the date of their primary. Both candidates agreed they would seat the delegations (Obama said he would "do right by Florida"), and Markos at DailyKos and Jerome here argued that the idea they would not be seated was absurd.

What was not know was that the primary would be close through the end and that Dean would prove utterly incapable of arriving at a compromise with FL and MI.


by souvarine on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:33:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates Should (none / 0)

Do you have any evidence for your first statement?

Do you have a plan for a re-vote?  It's easy to critique Obama, but that's missing the large enemy: a flawed primary process.  If we re-vote, it causes a new round of problems in 2012 which will only further harm our party. In addition, what is your evidence for this Obama "decision"? Please don't tell me it's just a hunch!  As far as I can tell, he and his campaign have not changed their stance from DAY ONE: "we will follow whatever the DNC decides to do."  It is the Clinton campaign who has tried to manipulate the party to suite their needs, not the Obama campaign.  

While I support the idea of a re-vote, I find the spreading of false information utterly unhelpful to the discussion.


by cwsaterfield on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:13:04 PM EST

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (2.00 / 2)

The race is so close that neither side has a particularly strong case. The 'only pledged counts', or 'popular vote', or 'electoral vote' at best give each superdelegate cover for his ultimate decision. I think each delegate will make their decision more based on horse trading, threats and fear in the GE of emerging scandals.

Obama is so ruthless I can see him playing that game well, but I wonder if he has overplayed his hand.


by souvarine on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:13:35 PM EST

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (none / 0)

This "electoral vote" argument is amazingly weak.  The primary is about winning delegates in proportionate races.  If it were winner-take-all, each candidate would employ a significantly different strategy, focusing their attention on states where they felt they could win 51%.  As it's proportionate, every state -- and every delegate --  matters.  To just ignore all of the delegates Obama won in California or that Clinton won in Virginia, as two examples, is ludicrous.

As I see it, even if the delegates and popular vote were equal at this point, Obama would have a stronger case as he'd make McCain play defense in a variety of traditional Republican strongholds.  The Clinton strategy would be Gore/Kerry +1, conceding Montana, Colorado, Virginia, etc.

Bayh's argument smacks of desperation.


by Bob Fenster on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:18:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If they think happy thoughts (none / 0)

they may fly


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:16:12 PM EST

How (none / 0)

will Hillary win without Wisconsin,Illinois,Washington,Maryland,M issouri, Iowa,and Minnesota?

Those are far more at risk than the safe democratic states like Ca,NY,and NJ.

NY,NJ,Mass and Ca will not go to the  GOP... no matter the candidate. I can assure you that Mo,Iowa,Wis. and Co. will be red if Hillary is the nominee.


by hawkjt on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:19:40 PM EST

Re: How (none / 0)

All I know is that she would have a real problem in Wisconsin.  People in my home state think McCain's a good guy, unfortunately.  Gore won the state by 5,000 votes, Kerry won by 10,000, so let's be honest that we would be playing with fire.


by rfahey22 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:22:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How (none / 0)

This is politics. You cannot assure this, it is only opinion.

Clinton lost Missouri by 1%.  That means that she is stronger there than you are indicating.  She won all the rest of the state and only in the city did O win.  If the nominee is Clinton, those voters will vote democratic, they do support the democrat.  But those down scale voters that voted for Clinton, I really wonder if O could get those votes.  

Who knows about CO.?  Wis is a different matter because the primary is determined by O being well known there better than elsewhere anyway.  If Clinton were the nominee again there is no indication whether those voters would vote for her or not.  

But in Calif with their large Hispanic vote, there those voters might well go for McCain, you can not be sure they would in fact vote for O.  And in Mass a really blue state McCain is polling ahead of O and Clinton is polling ahead of McCain.


democrat voter
by democrat voter on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:53:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hawkjt (2.00 / 1)

Obama will not carry Penn, FL, or OH in the general against McCain.  Why should we handicap our chances.


by nzubechukwu on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:21:32 PM EST

Re: Hawkjt (none / 0)

What is the winning number in Saturday's Mega Millions?


by SKI on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:06:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bayh found a way to portray Clinton as leading! (none / 0)

well, they're behind in votes, behind in delegates, behind in states won, congrats to Evan Bayh for finding a way to (dishonestly) portray Clinton as leading. unfortunately, the whole Clinton campaign seems to be fixated on how to portray defeat as victory. to claim victory or the lead no matter what the voters say.

if she doen't get more pledged delegates, or at very least more popular votes (altho this disenfranchises caucus states), she will have lost. and if after losing the superdelegates hand her the nomination anyway, that is STEALING the nomination. (and will lead a landslide defeat that will make McGovern look competitive in comparison.)
NO DEMOCRAT should support EITHER candidate if they steal the nomination.
i am an Obama supporter, i will NOT support Obama if he is given the nomination despite Clinton winning by the will of the voters.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:28:08 PM EST

Re: Bayh found a way to portray Clinton as leading (none / 0)

If HRC has pop vote and BO has pledged del vote
how do SDs decide?
should they have to go with their own state's votes?
I dont know what will happen if we get tho that point, and that is where I think we are heading...
ginaswo
by ginaswo on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:59:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bayh found a way to portray Clinton as leading (none / 0)

HRC doesn't have the popular vote and won't - unless you count Michigan where Obama wasn't on the ballot , which makes a mockery of the whole concept.

(I'm giving you Florida despite the weakness of counting a state with no campaigning when every state showed that campaigning helped Obama overcome Clinton's name recognition advantages)

Also, the "popular vote" counts don't include many of the caucus states where numbers of votes weren;t given.  Or do they not count?


by SKI on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bayh found a way to portray Clinton as leading (none / 0)

This disenfranchises caucus states?   LOL


democrat voter
by democrat voter on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:55:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The Superdelegates (none / 0)

The whole idea that there's any correlation between winning a Dem primary and winning that state in the GE makes no sense at all, and it works both ways. To my mind, there's the pledged delegates and the superdelegates. The pledged delegates are awarded according to the rules of the game and the superdelegates can do what they want. The superdelegates are not going to ultimately be convinced by all of these backstretching arguments; they're ultimately going to do what's best for their own careers, and then secondarily, the Party.

If we get to the end of the race for pledged delegates and the candidate with the most delegates looks positively unelectable, then they might switch sides. I wouldn't be too up in arms if they did. But if the GE polling is more or less even, as it is now, then I imagine that they'll go ahead and support the winner of the pledged delegate race.


by dmc2 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:30:19 PM EST

Re: What The Superdelegates Should Really Be Think (2.00 / 1)

For the electoral math argument see the excellent blog by
http://anglachelg.blogspot.com/2008/03/f un-with-electoral-college.html

There is no way, Obama can be a legitimate nominee without FL and MI. The fact that he is blocking any count or re-vote on both is also a big problem in the GE. Everyday, he makes himself less and less electable in the GE: with his Wright scandal which won't go away, his stance on FL and MI. He even enters the picture with a weak hand by not winning big states and winning mostly caucuses by questionable means. Superdelegates are watching.


by pm317 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:54:05 PM EST

Election Over? (none / 0)

Someone needs to inform the Obama campaign that the election is over and that he's won because he's just launched a "full assault" campaign strategy at hillary Clinton.  Why would he be attacking her if the election were over?  hmmm.....


by karajan72 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:17:51 PM EST

The Supers (none / 0)

Listen everyone, the Super Delegates should decide based upon who they like personally and who they think can win the election.  It's each Supers individual decision.  And we won't find out the result until the convention most likely.


by karajan72 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 04:19:40 PM EST

Hillary's just lost another superdelegate? (1.00 / 1)