Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary'

Ok, now that the fundraising silliness is over, let's go back to discussing the race.  What is behind the Edwards boomlet?  I'm not sure, but I'm not chalking it up to his wife's cancer.  That seems to be a good reason to look at Edwards again as he was featured in the media, but it's not a reason to choose Edwards over Obama.  So what exactly is going on?  I can't definitely say, but my guess is that some of what's going on has to do with Obama's internal contradictions.  This is Mr. New Politics.

And yet, remember this?

"We need to recognize, because Judge Alito will be confirmed, that, if we're going to oppose a nominee, that we've got to persuade the American people that, in fact, their values are at stake," Mr. Obama said.

"There is an over-reliance on the part of Democrats for procedural maneuvers," he told ABC's This Week.

What about this?

"I don't think in ideological terms. I never have," Obama said, continuing on the healthcare theme. "Everybody who supports single-payer healthcare says, `Look at all this money we would be saving from insurance and paperwork.' That represents 1 million, 2 million, 3 million jobs of people who are working at Blue Cross Blue Shield or Kaiser or other places. What are we doing with them? Where are we employing them?"

Or this?

If President Bush vetoes an Iraq war spending bill as promised, Congress quickly will provide the money without the withdrawal timeline the White House objects to because no lawmaker "wants to play chicken with our troops," Sen. Barack Obama said Sunday.

Obama has a compelling message centering on change and a new way of doing politics.  It's very very powerful because what he says touches on the notion of what many Americans think, that politics is broken.  This resonance works on the right, in the center, and on the left as well.  Lieberman's whole message in Connecticut in the general - and it worked - was about change.  He represented himself as the person who could get beyond partisanship and fix the problems in DC by bringing a new political attitude.  This worked with Republicans, Democrats, and Independents.  It was a real message, expressing the dissatisfaction that Connecticut voters felt with the status quo, but delivered safely, by a messenger they knew and trusted.

The only candidate on the Democratic side who is a comfortable messenger is Hillary Clinton.  She's got a very strong organization, she's trusted by the Democratic base, and she is seen as capable of beating back the right.  Now I don't support Clinton, and I believe that Senator Clinton's position on Iraq is flawed and dishonest.  But the point is that if anyone is going to successfully pursue a strategy of 'new politics' rhetoric without challenging any real power structures, it's going to be Clinton. The others can't use that channel, since they are newer.  

This means that strategically, there are other avenues open to them.  Obama and Edwards must challenge the political system by taking on specific obstacles and fighting against them, and if necessary, losing.  'This is what would have happened if I were in charge' is a message that works for someone who is new.  The worst of all worlds for a neophyte is to put forth rhetoric promising change, yet to adhere to the status quo.  This is why Clinton's awful Iraq positioning isn't really hurting her, since it isn't being exploited.  Obama in particular is refusing to lead on Iraq, preferring to argue that his one moment of judgment years ago is a good enough reason to trust him now.  I do believe that Obama's decision years ago was incredibly brave, but it's not enough anymore.  Either Edwards or Obama must use the JFK strategy, of America as a can-do country that should put a new generation in charge.  That's what Edwards is sort of moving towards, and it's starting to work even without media attention.

Still, the Democratic base does not trust Obama or Edwards to change this country's direction.  And while I'm warming up to Edwards because he is willing to take on entrenched power in the form of Fox News, I have to say, I don't trust either of them yet.  Obama in particular is just not there in any respect.  He has a habit of doing nothing and whining about it, as he did repeatedly throughout his Senate term when asked why he had done nothing in the Senate.  'I'm just a freshman' he would argue.  And then at the recent Presidential health care forum, his excuse was something along the lines of 'My campaign is eight weeks old'.  I spoke to some union officials who were there, and they were insulted by this.  On Alito, he was downright awful.  On Fox News, he has been nowhere.  And on Iraq funding, he has been counterproductive.  In other words, he talks about how Washington is broken, about the small-mindedness of DC thinking, about the need for freshness, and then at every point when it counts, he sides with the DC establishment.  

I'm not of course talking about his voting record or his time in the Illinois legislature, which were fairly liberal and where he usefully made change at the margins.  I'm talking meat and potatoes, let's change the system put up or shut up time.  And he's just never there.  This has opened up room for Edwards, who, while not as skilled as Obama, is willing to actively advocate for political change.  Does he mean it?  I don't know, as I was shocked by his stance on Iran.  But it's working, and the polls are keeping him stubbornly in the race, as is his impressive for the web traffic fundraising.

Senator Clinton is very strong, and she's proven that she can win a bar fight with the right.  She's moving to a good place on trade and health care, both of which were her weak points among progressives.  She's knowledgeable and impressive in person, and has a very competent team around her.  She's planning on perpetual war, but apparently progressive elites have decided that keeping troops Iraq forever is not worth criticism or debate, since no one is really any different on this.  This machine is what progressive activists, and Edwards and Obama are up against.  It's very powerful.  And so far, the Obama strategy of not challenging power structures is working to collect lots of money and push him up in the polls.  But when that first negative ad hits, when he's smacked for caving to special interests or trying to have it both ways on Iraq, will he have the credibility to say that this is just the old way of doing politics?  I don't know.  But so far, the Democratic base is saying 'Why should I trust this guy?'.  And he hasn't given us a good answer.

He could.  He could drop out of the Fox News CBCi debate.  He could lead on Iraq.  He could call for a return to the public of the public airwaves, and criticize Kevin Martin's FCC and media consolidation.  He could embrace Al Gore's idea of replacing the payroll tax with a carbon tax.  He could call for an end to the war on terror and/or the war on drugs.  He could ask a million young people to register to vote to push the old interests out of the way, and put up a counter on his website.  He could call for punitive measures on CEOs of companies that damage the environment.  There are many transformational 'bar fight' moments he could embrace.  It's incumbent upon all Obama supporters to push him to do any of these things, so that he has a chance to become President and change the country.  This country is crying out for change, and it's up to us to push our candidates to deliver it.

We didn't do that in 2000 and 2004, and look where it got us.

UPDATE AT 1:46: Well looks like we'll see what he's made of. Here's the first RNC attack sheet blasting him for lies. Of course they are mostly nonsense. I think he should swat this effectively away, but they are laying down markers to use later. Obama can make his move at any point.



Display:


Is Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

What about Sen. Obama standing up to Saint McCain over the speed of lobbying reform? Though McCain was anointed the "winner", time has shown that Sen. Obama was correct to push back against the establishment, even teaming up with Sen. Coburn to provide transparency in government bills?

I think the post has broached an excellent topic. Personally, I think we will see Sen. Obama's true colors soon when the negative ads do hit. I believe the events noted (including that horrible AP "quote") are not commendable, but hardly come close to John Edwards "bar fighting capabilities". Now that he is out of the Senate he preaches on what the Dem. Senators should do, but when he served he capitulated fully to the Bush doctrine, and when debating Dick Cheney, he played "nice guy" got whooped.

We know Clinton is a fighter, we know Edwards claims to be, we'll see soon about Obama.  


by Benstrader on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:33:49 PM EST

Re: Is Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

Ah, yes, when Obama apologized to McCain because McCain insulted him for no reason.

"The fact that you have now questioned my sincerity and my desire to put aside politics for the public interest is regrettable but does not in any way diminish my deep respect for you nor my willingness to find a bipartisan solution to this problem."


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:43:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Touche. (Damn Google and people with memories...)

My point was Obama stood up to McCain on one of his pet issues, and I believe time has proved him to be correct on the matter, and is great fodder for a Obama/McCain head to head, illustrating McCain being hypocritical and angry... but since McCain seems to be imploding, it appears it will remain an unnecessary, reflexive apology...


by Benstrader on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:56:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

Exactly.  This is when I completely lost any faith I might have had in Obama, as he proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that he just isn't strong enough to stand up to the bullies on the right.  We don't need another 98-pound weakling standing as the Democratic nominee.  We do need someone who is ready, willing and able to hit back, and hard.  Obama is going to get massacred if he's the nominee, because he can't or won't.


by Perry Oikos on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:03:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (2.00 / 0)

Absolutely!  Obama wins the 08 empty suit award.


Follow the money
by dkmich on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:09:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

Excellent analysis.

Issue by issue and checkpoint by checkpoint, Obama's silence isn't a major deal. But now that you've lined up a bunch of checkpoints up and shown that there's no Obama step-up anywhere, it's a bothersome pattern revealed.


Within weeks they'll be re-opening the shipyards And notifying the next of kin --Elvis Costello
by ShagBark on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:35:31 PM EST

The field reminds me of the Kennedy's (3.00 / 2)

Hillary is Teddy.  An establishment candidate because of those who came before her.  A strong voiced liberal who will be a lion in the Senate after losing a presidential bid.

Obama is John.  A charismatic once in a lifetime politician who appealed to the hope of a new generation, but (I'm not a history major, so I may be off) had very few legislative accomplishments.

John is Bobby.  A one-time war supporter (once again, if I misrepresent Bobby's record, I apologize.), who ran for president advocating for the less fortunate in our society.

I will be pleased with any of the three, but prefer Edwards.


by demiowa on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:38:18 PM EST

Re: The field reminds me of the Kennedy's (3.00 / 1)

Hillary is NO Teddy.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:02:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The field reminds me of the Kennedy's (1.00 / 1)

AND OBAMA IS NOT JFK. PLEASE.

OBAMA IS WEAK. AND IF HE WINS THE NOMINATION HE WON'T WIN THE PRESIDENCY.


by lonnette33 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 05:16:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The field reminds me of the Kennedy's (3.00 / 1)

Funny you said that.  Elizabeth agreed with me once when I said it and inspired this video.

John Edwards - Touching America's Heart Strings  Click here.  Sorry I don't know how to embed it here since the embed code doesn't work.


by Carolina Voice on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:11:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The field reminds me of the Kennedy's (none / 0)

Nobody is Bobby Kennedy, except him.

He was shaped far different things than JRE.


by danIA on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:05:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The field reminds me of the Kennedy's (3.00 / 2)

Stop comparing recent candidates to the Kennedys.

Obama is not the "next JFK," he's Barack Obama.
Edwards is not the "next RFK," he's John Edwards.

Let the candidates create their own legends not take on other ones.


"If you vote between the lesser of two evils, you're still stuck with evil." - Aaron MacGruder
by Nedsdag on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:08:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The field reminds me of the Kennedy's (none / 0)

Actually, according to Elizabeth, there are so many similarities that even I don't notice.  But, he is like Bobby reincarnated.  Elizabeth said he Bobby was his hero and was probably the single most influencing factor on his life.

From what I remember of Bobby and I followed him regularly as he was a hero of mine too, John and Bobby are from the same mold.  Certainly there is only one John and only one Bobby, but no one can deny that they are quite similar and both were/are great men.  


by Carolina Voice on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:44:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He did a little something on Fox (3.00 / 2)

When he "froze out" Fox News, that was good, but he has not followed it up with further Fox action.

When it comes to Iraq, it stuns me that none of the top tier are advocating for more withdrawal. That is a real opening for all of them. As soon as someone says it is time to pull all of the troops out, then at least we can have a discussion about it. Right now, there is none, and our top tier isn't helping that.
by Chris Bowers on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:40:38 PM EST

since last fall (3.00 / 2)

Edwards has called for 40-50,000 immediate withdrawl and the rest to get out in ~ a year.


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:47:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: since fall of 2005! (none / 0)

In his op-ed of November 13, 2005, Edwards called for 40,000-50,000 troops out then, mostly National Guard and then he called out Halliburton .  He's the only one talking about the contractors and how they are a symbol of "American imperialism".  That's why the media ignores him.  This is dangerous territory and he's been calling out Halliburton and Dick Cheney for years. He's better than a bar room brawler. He's stealthy.  When he was a trial lawyer, his adversaries said, "You didn't see him coming until it was too late."  Let Clinton brawl away. Edwards is 007.


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:16:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He did a little something on Fox (3.00 / 2)

Why can't the Dem's pass a bill, NO TROOP LEFT BEHIND, that would ensure funds and strategy for withdrawal when either a) the President orders it, or b) war funds run out? (Maybe also include funds for parades and other stuff for soldiers arrival home.) This seems like it would eliminate the "playing chicken with troops on the ground" meme.

Also, When talk about defunding the war, why don't Dems ever talk about defunding Bush or defunding Halliburton? Instead it seems the right's frame of defunding the troops gets inserted.

Does it seems that, now that he is a legitimate candidate, Sen. Obama might be looking at general election strategy, i.e. triangulation?


by Benstrader on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:49:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Defunding Halliburton (none / 0)

yes, I really don't understand the unwillingness to do this.  It is really an obvious opening


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:26:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards has accepted (none / 0)

funding caps in his plan.  Obama and Clinton  voted for the Gregg bill that said Congress will not cut funding.

John Edwards is not Russ Feingold, but he has the best position of the top three on Iraq.

40 to 50,000 out now.
All troops out of Iraq in a year or so.
No permanent bases.

Edwards also supported the Murtha bill.


by littafi on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:11:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards only objection (3.00 / 1)

to Reid-Feingold is that it doesn't go far enough.


by david mizner on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:05:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wasn't Obama the first... (3.00 / 1)

...to stop treating Fox News as a legitimate news source due to the Madrassa story?


by Benstrader on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:41:11 PM EST

Re: Wasn't Obama the first... (3.00 / 0)

Yes, that was good.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:44:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wasn't Obama the first... (none / 0)

But then he failed to lead.  John Edwards led on the Nevada debate with FoxNews and on the CNC debate.  Obama was silent.

He may make a good Senate Majority Leader someday, but he does not lead enough to be President.  Obama has a legislative, and not an executive, mentality.  It shows.


by littafi on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:04:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wasn't Obama the first... (3.00 / 4)

He doesn't have to get on a Soap Box each and every time. This is so a non issue in running for President.

People keep expecting him to do things the conventional way and on their timing. He has his own timing and he knows what he's doing. Just because some people don't get the strategy doesn't mean it's not effective. John Edwards is throwing EVERYTHING on the table right now.

People have shorter memories than you would assume. Towards the end of the race , before the Primaries, who will look like they have the newer and more fresh vision? Mr. "Vote for me because I was the first?"

I'd take the best over the first any day.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:10:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama still has not (none / 0)

said if he will go to the CBC debate.  It's not a "soapbox."  It's leadership and he has not done it.  He simply does not lead.

It's not just this issue.  Obama talks an "unconventional" game, but he votes and supports totally conventional policies.  

Matt Stoller is right.


by littafi on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:14:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wasn't Obama the first... (3.00 / 1)

But this is HIS issue.  Obama's been the one for several years pounding his fist on the lecturn saying we have to change the way we talk about politics, and that the big failure of the Democratic party is that it isn't effectively communicating to people what it stands for.  Thus, Fox News is presumably right in his wheelhouse, and he watches the pitch go by.  There's a debate that needs to leap bigtime out of the blogs over how the Democratic Party is branded and sold in this country, and it's something that's connected to all the rhetoric of change and bipartisanism that drives the Obama campaign.

In and of itself, maybe this is minor.  But the opportunity to lead was there, and to use this as a jumping off point for bigger discussions of the underlying problems.  But he didn't want it.


by Lucas O'Connor on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:32:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wasn't Obama the first... (3.00 / 1)

When do we get to see the end product of his grand machinations?  "He has a plan, but he's not going to let us see it" was exactly what the right said during the Iraq war build up.

Turned out that there was no plan there.  When Obama shows me his plan, then, and only then, will I support him.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:28:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

"Now I don't support Clinton, and I believe that Senator Clinton's position on Iraq is flawed and dishonest."

Oh Really Matt?

Dishonest? I don't think so. Clinton has said she will leave 75,000 troops in Iraq. How honest is that Matt? Obama and Edwards has said they will end the war if they are elected. In what dream world are they living?  Obama and Edwards won't have the guts to end the war. AIPAC will own the next President and believe me; we are in Iraq to stay.  Obama and Edwards are being dishonest not Clinton. What is Obama's and Edwards's plan to get us out of Iraq? Oh, I know, they don't have one.  Give me a break Matt.


by lonnette33 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:42:14 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

"If I am elected President, I will end the war."

"I will bring our troops home."


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:44:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Or something to that effect.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:44:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Matt,

Clinton corrected that statement by indicating she will leave 75,000 troops in Iraq. Did she not say that? What's flawed about that? What's dishonest about that? She's not waddling, she's being realistic Matt. I believe Hillary re-evaluated her initial thoughts on the situation, as well as her comments and determined that we have got to leave troops in Iraq; we have no choice. Don't blame the messager; blame President Bush. I agree with her assessment. That's honestly Matt.


by lonnette33 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 05:25:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Hold the phone. On this, I wholeheartedly agree with Matt.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Boy do I agree with you.  Senator Clinton is getting the raw end of the progressive stick- She is clearly the most experienced of the top tier-she has worked hard and put her time in.

BTW-don't we still have troops in Germany? Korea?  etc. All the major military leaders believe that we must leave some troops -even though all of us would like it be different-We will have to deal with reality once again under a Clinton Presidency.

Edwards is a wonderful man-Since he hasn't had a full time job for the last two years he has been able to put in a great deal of time trying to become President and his two Americas is  a worthy theme but until he sells his 28,000 square foot house-it's not believeable.  It takes lots of energy-no matter what type of bulbs you use-to run a building(s) that size.  

Obama has been packaging himself for the Presidency most of his life-Surprised (but not shocked) that there has not been  much made of the NYTimes piece last Sunday in the magazine about his Svengali-David Axelrod-In "Obama's Narrator" You get to see what has gone into the making of this candidate-Smoke and mirrors?  You decide-  "For four years Axelrod has had camera crews tracking virtually everything Obama has done in public -- chatting up World War II vets in southern Illinois, visiting his father's ancestral village in western Kenya -- and there were days when the camera crews have outnumbered the civilians.. ..."If we run a conventional campaign and look like a conventional candidacy, we lose," Axelrod says.. ..For him, running campaigns hitched to personality rather than ideology is a way of reclaiming fleeting authenticity. ...... In the 15 years since, Axelrod has worked through Obama's life story again and again, scouring it for usable political material, and he believes that some basic themes come through: that he is "not wedded to any ideological frame or dogma," that he is "an outsider rather than someone who's spent years in the dens of Georgetown," that he is an "agent for change" and has the optimism and dynamism of a fresh, young face. "  Some kind of "authenticity" huh?  

This said-all of our candidates are honorable and worthy Americans- It is just frustrating to see the left demonize the one candidate who could do it all- She may be a good bar fighter (although I think it's been exaggerated)   More importantly, she is a great woman- It's been nearly impossible to get the press and especially the blogs to report anything positive about her.

This is from the same NYTimes piece:

"David and Susan Axelrod have three children in their late teens and early 20s. Their eldest, Lauren, has developmental disabilities associated with chronic epileptic seizures and now lives in a group home in Chicago. But for years her illness required enough of her parents' time that it kept Susan Axelrod out of the work force and kept David from moving to Little Rock during the 1992 presidential campaign. Susan and two other mothers of children with epilepsy started a foundation, Citizens United for Research in Epilepsy (CURE), which Susan runs, to promote research and raise funds for a cure. ... It was January 1999, President Clinton's impeachment trial was just beginning in the Senate and Hillary Clinton was scheduled to speak at the foundation's fund-raiser in Chicago. Despite all the fuss back in Washington, Clinton kept the appointment. She spent hours that day in the epilepsy ward at Rush Presbyterian hospital, visiting children hooked up to machines by electrodes so that doctors might diagram their seizure activity and decide which portion of the brain to remove. At the hospital, a local reporter pressed her about the trial in Washington, asked her about that woman. At the organization's reception at the Drake Hotel that evening, Clinton stood backstage looking over her remarks, figuring out where to insert anecdotes about the kids. "She couldn't stop talking about what she had seen," Susan Axelrod recalled. Later, at Hillary Clinton's behest, the National Institutes of Health convened a conference on finding a cure for epilepsy. Susan Axelrod told me it was "one of the most important things anyone has done for epilepsy." And this is how politics works: David Axelrod is now dedicated to derailing this woman's career."

How many positive stories are out there about Hillary that ever get published?  She is truly an extraordinary woman and deserves the respect and support of her party even if she is not your first choice.


by Menemshasunset on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:03:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

If you're going to be spreading Republican themes about the hypocrisy and fakeness of Edwards and Obama, at least don't exercise your own hypocrisy and fakeness by calling them wonderful and honorable and worthy.


DC Drinking LiberallyDC for Democracy

by KCinDC on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:33:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Dont we still have troops in Vietnam too?  Oh wait, we dont.  Why not?  Because in Germany and Korea, the US occupation provided a strong stabilizing presence and was not generally seen by local populations to be an illegitimate aggressive foreign occupation.  

Hillary is getting the short end of the progressive stick because she is a major war apologist, and only came to the anti-war party late, dragged by overwhelming poll numbers.

I am really tired of the Hillary operatives pretending that opposition to her is motivated by irrational reasons.  In politics, you are what you do.  She wanted to be a hero for the left base and grassroots, than she had to count on more than her married name.  

I am more offended by the Democratic party capitulation to Bush when it mattered than I am by the Republican party support of the Bush agenda, and for years, Clinton played a greedy and ambitious game of triangulation for the sake of political convenience.  She doesnt deserve our support and wont get it.


John McCain loves war.
by Winston Smith on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:40:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Even further, Germany and Japan are not occupied at all, any more than the UK is.  


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:48:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

First of all, I'm not a Hillary "Operative". I'm an average 34 year African-American voter that happens to supports Hillary. I am looking at the issues.  You don't have to agree me.  That's America.  Don't vote for Hillary.  But I am entitled to my opinions and I will state them on this blog and any other for that matter. I believe in Hillary and her leadership abilities. I like Hillary's approach to Iraq.  Troops will have to be left in Iraq. Regarding UHC-Hillary knows the subject very well and will produce a realistic plan. Hillary is pragmatic and is willing to work across party lines. Her husband did that to pass the Welfare Reform bill. I could go on and on to state why I support Hillary.  Supporting Hillary does not make me an "Operative", dumb ass.  


by lonnette33 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 05:11:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Troops will have to be left in Iraq.

I know what you and Hillary and Bush have decided about this.  Do you think the Iraqi people should get a say?  Or do you just think..  Fuck them, we conquered their country, we can do whatever the fuck we want with it?


John McCain loves war.
by Winston Smith on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 06:12:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Unfortunately, the Iraqis don't have a `say so' in their country. Why? George W. Bush. America has destroyed that country. We have destroyed its infrastructure, economy and the will of its people.  By destroying the country we have created more enemies and terrorists. If we don't stay in Iraq, we are putting America in danger.  We don't have a choice. We've got to leave at least 75,000 troops in Iraq. Those troops will be our eyes and ears. It's just a matter of time before we build permanent bases. I'm being realistic and it's about time other progressive start thinking realistically.


by lonnette33 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 09:11:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

Shorter Stoller:

Obama doesn't pander enough.


"Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat." - William Sloane Coffin, Jr.
by Nasara on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:43:07 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 3)

No, he does pander.  To insiders.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 3)

he doesn't pander to the netroots, and he doesn't pander to insiders.

his whole campaign is based on the idea that we need to stop playing politics, whether it be to the dem base or to washington insiders.

Obama fights, he just fights in a way we're not use to. he fights for our goals, but fights to get people against him on his side and not to alienate them. on iraq, his goal is to get us out of iraq. his bill makes this explicit. but he realizes that repubs must join dems to get this done, as such his rhetoric is about ending the war together.

there is nothing insider about him, as his donor numbers show, his refsual to take pac and lobby money shows, etc.


by dpg220 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:31:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

"we need to stop playing politics,"

Can you explain what playing politics means to you?


by adamterando on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:02:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

politics to me means looking at iraq as a political game, not as a war that is costing us american lives. Edwards, to his credit, also sees iraq not as a game but as a life or death reality.

when he sasy politcis is not a game he's taking a dig at clinton and the washington establishment, who believe in politics over principles.


by dpg220 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:56:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Please read above post- Get real- HE IS A POLITICIAN-NOT A SUPER HERO


by Menemshasunset on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:04:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

"there is nothing insider about him"

huh?

1. A sitting Washington Senator

  1. gave the keynote address at the national convention in 2004
  2. His campaign is a centralized, top-down operation run completely by veteran D.C. insiders.
  3. He follows the establishment in things controversial (Feingols censure, Lamont)
  4. His message is framed in very conventional, poll-tested rhetoric

How is he an outsider?
 


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:11:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

if you consider the dnc speech insider, than edards is an insider too.

his campaign in not top down- see his fund raising. saying he is running a top down campaign goes against the facts.

he does not follow the establishment on controversail things, he doesn't follow those things because he doesn't thing they're helpful. moreover, he backed lieberman before lamont even entered the race.

you have no evidence that his message is poll tested. his message is about moving past partisanship to accomplish progressive goals. if he was trying to garner votes in the dem primary he would be using populist rhetoric like edwards.


by dpg220 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:53:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

> his whole campaign is based on the idea
> that we need to stop playing politics,
> whether it be to the dem base or to
> washington insiders.

Assuming he is elected, Obama will face (1) a Supreme Court stacked with Roberts, Scalia, and Alito (2) an executive branch filled with "loyal Bushies" in civil service positions who can't be fired.

Help me understand how exactly Obama will use his new type of politics to deal with this.  Also touch on what type of Supreme Court Justice he will nominate.

And the Supreme Court perfectly brings up the point:  if Republican presidents nominates Alitos, and Democratic Presidents nominate conciliators...

sPh


by sphealey on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:33:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

Obama recently caused the entire beltway press core to drop their jaws when his netrrots based fundraising strategy beat the mighty Clinton fundraising machine.

Call him an insider, call him an outsider, call him what you will but Obama has made the first serious breach in the levy of the DC establishment that kos and Matt have been railing against.


by Sam I Am on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:14:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

> bama recently caused the entire beltway press
> core to drop their jaws when his netrrots based
> fundraising strategy beat the mighty Clinton
> fundraising machine.

True.  What does that tell me about what type of Supreme Court Justice he will pick?  What if he selects Lieberman as Secretary of State and McCain as Secretary of Defense in order to be "bipartisan"?

sPh


by sphealey on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:17:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

again look at his record. he's progressive and would not pick these people.

he's no bi-partisan in the sense he picks people who do not follow his principles; he's post-partisan in that his rhetoric is meant to unite people not divide people.


by dpg220 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:50:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

> he's no bi-partisan in the sense he picks people
> who do not follow his principles; he's
> post-partisan in that his rhetoric is meant to
> unite people not divide people.

I am sorry, but those words have no meaning.  How exactly is Obama going to "unite" people who seeded Roberts and Alito onto the Federalist Society and the federal bench 20 years ago on the prospect of appointing them to the Court when the time was right?  How is he going to unite the 30-percenters?  Does he think the Swift Boat people will just leave him alone after election because he wrote a book?

sPh


by sphealey on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:02:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

HE FIGHTS? WHAT DOES HE FIGHT FOR? WHAT IS HIS CAUSE? I don't mean that badly but I don't know what his cause is. His calling.

Not playing politics ins't a cause. You would have a solid position on your couses, and perhaps have to develop one for other issues.

I haven't listened intently to him but I still don't have a sense of what stirs him.

He make a GREAT speech. And that will get him far.


by del on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:25:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Where does Stoller even suggest that?  Actually, Stoller is suggesting the very opposite.


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:44:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

I don't want him to pander.  I want him to lead.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:45:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Me, too. (none / 0)

I think that's crystal clear in your diary.


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:47:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

No one cares about white sheets and policy papers this far out from an election except for special interests - and yes that includes us!  People want Obama to do what Dean did - have a throwaway line for each interest group in his stump speech (Environmentalist? Check.  Unions? Check.  Women's Rights?  Check.  Health care?  Check.)  It seems like that's what Stoller is asking for as well.  Can Obama be more specific?  Sure, and hopefully he will be.  But 20 months before an election?  No reason to make judgments yet because he won't go for the cheap applause lines.  I appreciate the fact that he's campaigning under his own style.


"Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat." - William Sloane Coffin, Jr.
by Nasara on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:24:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (3.00 / 3)

Dean was not giving throwaway lines.  He was the only major candidate challenging the war early on--i.e. in a race where it actually was politically risky to do so.  He made the corporate takeover of the government part of his stump speech and platform.  His campaign was a decentered, truly grassroots effort about changing politics and citizen involvement (Dean Corps, Rapid Response, etc.)

If you read the post, Matt clearly isn't asking for thowaway lines--that's all Obama is offering now.  He's also not asking for white papers on policy either.  Take another look at what Matt actually wrote.  


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:31:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

This is one thing that always bothered me about dean people.  it wasn't risky at all for him to oppose the war.  Opposing the war was what made him relevant.  Without that, no one would have supported the former governor of Vermont for president.  There was nothing to risk and everything to gain for dean to take that position.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:32:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

Then why didn't they all take that position?


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:37:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

Because the others had something to lose.  Dean had nothing to lose.  


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

What did they have that they were in danger of losing?


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:49:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

(And I would add that Sen. Bob Graham (from a swing state) and Kucinich were also against the war, yet their campaigns didn't take off.  Why?)


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:52:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

In 2002, people were already talking about Lieberman, Kerry, and Edwards like they were mainstream, legitimate candidates.  They voted for the war knowing that it was politically risky to oppose it.  They were already on the map for the Presidency.  Dean was not.  Dean was not a credible presidential candidate until he opposed the war.  

Graham was indirect and wordy about why he opposed the war.  He was not communicative about his opposition, and paid the price.

Kucinich was rabidly pro-life until the minute he decided to run for President, and is not telegenic, and spent more time complaining about the attention Dean was getting than he did actually making the case for why people should be voting for him.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:01:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

The assumption you're making is that they had the nomination to lose, which means they already owned the nomination, which is clearly illogical.

Because the things that disqualified other candidates who were against the war proves that Dean had other qualities than being against the war that attracted people.  And I can say that in my own case, it was that his campaign (with trippi's vision) legitimately was an effort to change American politics.  (Which is why other candidates' opposition to the war did not or would not have inspired at least me in the way that Dean's campiagn did.)


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:09:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

Come on.  If Dean ran the exact same campaign, but took Kerry's position on the war, how much support do you think he would have garnered?  He would not have been on the map.  His position on the war was the reason that people began to look at him.  He would not have been relevant without opposing the war.  The other candidates were already establishment candidates with extensive press attention.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:14:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

I think that's clearly true.  I'm not arguing against that.


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:39:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

Then how was Dean's position courageous?  The act that made him relevant was a precondition of him going anywhere.  That's what I mean by saying that he had everything to gain and nothing to lose by opposing the war.  Because he might lose either way, but there was only one way that he could possibly win.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:01:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

JSure, for most people being against the war is what caught people's attention about Dean, but just turn it around.  He lost the establishment and the media because he was the anti-war candidate.

And again, in the context of my earlier post, being an anti-war candidate alone is clearly not what propelled Dean's candidacy.  There were other minor and major candidates who were aginst the war but whose campaigns went nowhere.

How did Dean have any more or less to lose than the other candidates?


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:38:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He never had the establishment or the media (none / 0)

once again, he was the former governor of Vermont.  

Being against the war was the sine qua non of his candidacy.  That is my whole point.  Opposing the war was not courageous for him.  It was shrewd, intelligent, correct, just, and a ton of other things, but it was not courageous.  It was an obvious opening that he saw, took, and rode a long way.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

Dean had an election to lose.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

And who would support the former governor of Vermont without something major to get peoples' attention?  


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 03:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (3.00 / 1)

Uh, what do white papers and policy positions have to do with what Stoller is talking about? He's asking Obama to lead something other than the fight against cynicism.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:33:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Special Interests (none / 0)

If these groups are in any way connected to a PAC, Barack Obama is prohibited from dealing with them.

Period!


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:35:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

But what if what you suggest is leading, Obama sees as pander?


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:20:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

Talking about 'the politics of change' without suggesting what that change is, other than a vague sense of bipartisianship, is the epitome of pandering.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:33:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 3)

As an Obama supporter, I too want him to take on the status quo on an issue.  However, it seems that Obama panders to no one and does his own thing on his timetable.  I disagree with most here that pulling out of a Fox sponsored debate is brave leadership.  There are plenty of folks outside the netroots who will view this as cowardly.  It is our job to maintain pressure on the organizations that strike these deals with Fox and not place our candidates in untenable positions that could hurt him/her in the general.

I missed the explanation as to why you distrust Edwards?  Does anyone wonder whether his perfectly calibrated positions are pandering to Kos/Mydd.  At any rate, it seems to be working.  Don't get me wrong Edwards supporters, I like him {he was my 2nd choice after Wes Clark}.  I would prefer a more evenly balanced analysis, before we convert this site and Kos to "Edwards Central".


by pamelabrown on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:02:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Unfortunately, after posting the notion that he needs to drop out of the CBC/Fox debate on the Obama Blog, the amount of people who supported the idea was small and the number who said he should stay in was huge.  I disagree with them, and really don't think they understand the damage Fox does to the country, but then many are still low info voters, who are probably getting involved for the first time in their life and don't look at the party as whole, just at Obama.  Its frustrating, but while I think No Dem should EVER set foot on fox, I am not sure what the vast majority of America thinks.  


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:33:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

Edwards has done at least 4 things that have earned my respect:

  • repudiating his Iraq war vote
  • presenting a responsible and economically credible health care plan
  • cancelling his appearance at the Fox / Nevada debate (and calling Fox the partisan outlet that it is)
  • rejecting criticism of the decision to run despite Elizabeth Edwards' cancer diagnosis; their response was essentially that during the death of their son they proved their ability to act under extreme emotional and practical pressure, and that these are qualities required of a president

Most important, Edwards appears to be consistent in his positions (pace Iran).


by Eqbal00 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:43:49 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

This diary lays it out clearly.  When push comes to shove--Feingold censure, Lamont--Obama toes the establishment line.  And yet he uses a very conventional anti-establishment rhetoric that always works in politics.


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:43:56 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

I'm not sure I agree with your premise.

This is a narrow segment of the Democratic base - and Obama's actually doing quite well here.

Clinton could never say "we have to change politics" because she's been so involved with the old way of doing things for so long. It'd be disingenuous - and it'd play right into Obama's message.

I think you equate early polls with a level of trust - that's counterproductive. I'm fairly certain that the Democratic base trusts all three candidates to change direction. What the direction is, how far it goes, is another question.


Further Reading
by Dave Sund on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:45:38 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

That's a good point.  All Democrats trust that these candidates will take the country in a different direction, because they will.  But none of them are making the case for fundamentally different power arrangements.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:47:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

That's right.  Unlike Dean in 2004, there is no (major) outsider candidate in this race.


by justinh on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:49:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

I think you fundamentally have the core answer here: there is no outsider candidate this time. And Obama, I believe and/or hope, is trying to evoke change in a different way. He understands that an outsider candidate will have no hope of winning the primary. The Establishment is too powerful. I agree with PamelaBrown, as her comment implies, that Obama is trying to do something different. He needs the support of the establishment to be able to win the nomination. He can't be a complete outside and still win. I suspect that he'll surprise many and start giving more red meat later in the cycle. He is definitely trying hard not to pander to any constituency. Though I think that "pander" might be the wrong word here. The netroots is seen as fairly strident. I'm not touting that position. But the netroots is seen more for its fighting than for its accomplishments and ability to build coalitions. Again, that's the perception. And I think that Obama is trying to develop a narrative of himself that is about post-partisanship, but in a different way than, say, Liberman did it.

Thanks, Matt, for a diary that I can fully support. I may not agree with all that you've said here. But this feels to me like a conversational piece as opposed to other diaries about Obama that I simply felt did not take into account the reality of the situation. You laid out your case clearly and offered not only criticism but changes that could be made. Thanks. And I hope that we can do that with all of the candidates. I feel like we need to be more supportive, in general, of the candidates we have. Hold their feet to the fire but offer solutions.


by blackmahn on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:58:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll be interested in seeing (3.00 / 1)

the April 15th contributors.

I suspect Obama will have a lot of former Clinton donors with a large representation of financial services from NY and Chicago.

I find trial attorneys less threatening to democracy and the blue collar worker than Citigroup and JP morgan.


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:49:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll be interested in seeing (none / 0)

I know that both Obama and Edwards have sworn off taking contributions from lobbyists or PACs.


Further Reading
by Dave Sund on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:54:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll be interested in seeing (none / 0)

Yes but I heard that Obama fundraisers WERE calling lobbyist spouses! ! !

Don't know on the Edwards camp.


by del on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:29:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll be interested in seeing (none / 0)

Yeah, but was that at the direction of the campaign?

I have a feeling that the fundraiser calls were done not at Obama's direction, much like I think the fundraising letters sent to those who wished Elizabeth well, were NOT sent at the behest of the Edwardses... that instead, some staffer took it upon himself.  Both are unfortunate, but I will give them both the benefit of the doubt on this.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:37:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll be interested in seeing (none / 0)

Emphasis on "I suspect"

Opinion. That's all I'm seeing here for the basis of Obamas criticism.

Opinion.

Wow. Some people must love being surprised when they find out they are wrong.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:25:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

I appreciate this commentary matt.  I think it's spot on.  

I'm kind of an Obama supporter, but I use "kind of" because I'm waiting for a moment you are calling for.  

He has the opportunity.  He has the support.  He just needs to get some steal veins.  

I think he'll eventually step.  He knows he's caught in the middle now.  But will his "call for action" be too late?  


by Ian Campbell on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:48:38 PM EST

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 3)

I hope not, but I haven't seen any evidence that he is willing to lead.  It's frustrating.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 12:50:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (2.00 / 1)

Matt,

Please, please, please be patient with Obama. You know that he is not well known in this nation right? Well, what if , just hear me out, but what if, this first wave of campaigning is simply to introduce himself to the American people? I mean, he has the money to go back. Maybe , he's just getting the people to a point where they are used to seeing him. Maybe, his first trips are to get them out of the "Culture shock" and you know what I'm talking about. Now, he can go back and talk to them about serious issues and they won't be distracted by the "Mystique". Do you know what I mean or no?


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:47:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 2)

How long do we have to wait before we can actually expect him to behave like a President?


by Lucas O'Connor on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 01:49:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

Till Mid May or early June.

Please. Just wait. Please.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:20:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but was it not Obama that started things early?

As for waiting, I'm waiting anyway since we're still 18 months from the actual election. But all the "just wait, he'll be good" stuff isn't gonna last forever.


by Lucas O'Connor on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 02:28:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (none / 0)

I actually would agree that is valid criticism... I take the same line as OE2008 on this, because this is how his Senate Primary was... If it comes to October or November and still nothing, then I will be the first to say how disappointed I am in him.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 04:40:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1)

I'm not saying that I'm unwilling to wait. Like I said, I'm waiting on all of them.  But so far, Obama only has potential.  He's got to deliver on it to be taken seriously, and he doesn't have too much longer given that the cycle has moved up.  It's not about convincing me, it's about demonstrating that he's made this thing real.  Right now, perhaps fairly, being President is almost entirely abstract to him from what I read and hear.  As he gears up for the stretch run into the primary season, he will need to internalize in a meaningful way just how much he's trying to take on and start acting like it.

(this is also true of other candidates of both parties, but this is a thread about Obama)


by Lucas O'Connor on Mon Apr 09, 2007 at 06:15:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama is Losing the 'Bar Fight Primary' (3.00 / 1