Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test

During the first four months of the 2008 presidential campaign, Matt and I have based much of our discussion on the candidates in two frames: the bar fight primary, and how much a candidate is a friend of the progressive movement. Whilst sifting through some older blog posts, I was reminded of how on August 1st, 2005, the day before the OH-02 special election, James Powell laid down a series of bullet points that still accurately delineate the basic criteria of what will make a candidate popular in the progressive blogosphere. Let's call it the Hackett litmus test (I added the numbered bullet points myself):
I suggest that we DID have a litmus test, and that Paul Hackett met every important point. It's just not any of the litmus tests that we usually hear about. While I am sure that all of us would have our favorite elements, they would have to include some or all of the following:
  1. Does 'distance himself' from the party or its leaders, or is he proud to be a Democrat?

  2. Does he talk like a bureaucrat or like a regular person?

  3. Does he make it clear that he opposes Bush and the Republicans?

  4. Does he back down when the corporate press/media or Republican pundits attack him, or does he stand by his words?

  5. Does he respond to the nationwide reaction of the left blogosphere, or does he assign it to a junior staff member?

  6. Does he sleepwalk through the campaign, or does he act like he wants to win?
I don't know all of Paul Hackett's positions and, since I am an old school lefty I am sure I don't agree with all of them. But he passed the litmus test I have set out for Democratic candidate I will support with time and donations.
Two years later, I still think this list pretty much sums it up. Avoid triangulation against progressives and Democrats. Speak with honesty and passion. Ditch "the politics of unity and purpose" and earnestly take the fight to Republicans. Get our backs in the bar fight primary. Take the movement seriously and consider it an ally. Play to win and never be lazy. Pretty much every single criticism we have made of Democratic candidates, congressional leaders, and advocacy organizations over the past four months still fits into one of these six categories.

I think it is important to note that these criteria work best for what I have previously termed "the activist blogosphere," rather than for either the blogosphere or netroots as a whole. I certainly think it works for the hub of websites around Dailykos and MyDD, and mostly works for the hubs around sites such as Fire Dog Lake, Eschaton and Hullabaloo (and maybe some others too, but I don't want to speak for too many people). It isn't blogosphere-wide, but it does serve as a useful guide to navigating a substantial number of prominent progressive blogs.

Where do the 2008 candidates fit in terms of the Hackett litmus test? Here are some quick thoughts:
  • Biden seems to flunk the entire list, which is probably why he isn't very well liked in these parts.

  • Clinton seems to struggle at everything except for number four and number six, although in terms of number five her campaign has improved its netroots and blogosphere outreach. Whatever other complaints we make about Clinton, being lazy, not playing to win, and rolling over to the press are never (or at least rarely) among them. Her problems seem to be grouped into numbers one, two and three.

  • Dodd definitely has problems with number two, and his "just give me a chance" campaign theme does not help him much with number six, either. Otherwise, he seems to do well.

  • Edwards does not appear to have any clear weak points in this test, which is why I imagine he is doing so well in Dailykos and MyDD polls. Of course, I'll probably take a lot of flack for not being harder on Edwards here.

  • Gravel is clearly has problems with numbers five and six. In fact, his problem with number six is so utterly severe that it is difficult to even tell what other strengths and weaknesses he might have on this list.

  • Kucinich has major problems with numbers four, five and six. He seems to spend more energy defending Fox News than actually trying to put together resources necessary to compete.

  • Obama, despite his record as a legislator, seems to have problems with numbers one and three. There is an underlying "politics of unity and purpose" theme to Obama's campaign, as well as a tendency to triangulate. Also, despite his huge netroots support, there does appear to be a problem with number five from time to time. However, that is more a problem in his words, than in his actual campaign structure or operation.

  • Richardson's problems seem to center on numbers two and three. He doesn't triangulate, but before Iraq he also never seemed to lead on any partisan fights against Republicans. Perhaps it is a visibility problem
I want to emphasize that these observations are very much off the cuff, and I am making them more as a means of starting a discussion than chiseling them in stone. I think this is a useful template to understand the performance of the candidates in certain parts of the blogosphere, and I would like to hear your thoughts on this matter.

Update: As more than one commenter points out, the use of non-gender inclusive language in this litmus test probably reveals an inherent bias in the selection of netroots candidates. Clearly, that is a problem.



Display:


Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

As a strong Hillary supporter, I think that you are all wet on #3.  Hillary has made it absolutely clear that she opposes Bush, from day one.  The only time that she tried to cozy up to Bush was in the fight to get $20 billion for NY reconstruction (and as a NYer, I am very thankful for that).  She has tried to work with GOP senators, but never at the expense of her own clear identity as a Democrat.  Rather, she has attempted to find common sense solutions that even the most rabid of rightwingers would be hardpressed to deny.

Hillary is proud to be a Democrat.  She is proud of the record the last Democratic administration.  In fact, if Al Gore had been as willing as Hillary to publicly state his pride in the accomplishments of the Clinton administration, he would have prevailed (I know he got more votes and had Florida stolen) in 2000.  During the Lazio-Clinton campaign, you could not get a razor between Hillary and the Democratic record of success.

Hillary is not a great public speaker.  She does tend to speak in lists.  But, she has the GREATEST SURROGATE SPEAKER IN HISTORY waiting in the wings.  I have no doubt about the ability of a Clinton general campaign to connect to heart and soul of the electorate.


by Ephus on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 02:39:29 PM EST

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (3.00 / 0)

Triangulation against progressives and liberals has been a Clinton hallmark for a long, long time. The term "New Democrat," which is itself a form of triangulation, has become synonymous with Clintonism.
by Chris Bowers on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 02:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

Chris,

Bill Clinton and "New Democrat" did triangulate against the party in the early '90s, but I have not heard anything from Hillary about the "brain dead thinking of both parties," or anything like that, since she began her campaign for Senate (more than seven years now).  Hillary stands proudly in the Democratic camp, as it now exists.

In fact, Obama is the one who is madly triangulating about the need to escape from BOTH parties.

If the Bar Primary really is, "Who do you count on to back you up in a bar fight?" I trust Hillary.  She's been through the toughest of fights, and picked her enemies.  It's the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy.


by Ephus on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:08:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

"I trust Hillary."
To ban flag burning?
To be a political opportunist?
To keep troops in Iraq?

"It's the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy."
Is Matt Drudge a part of that? Because he seems to be pushing a Hillary nomination.
What about Tom Delay? He says she'll be the next president.

Just because she named the VWRC doesn't mean that she's the best one to oppose it.


by mermzilla on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:20:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, Hillary (3.00 / 2)

is the worst triangulator since her husband, who, in case you didn't know is now advocating "torture courts."

Obama is a triangulator too. He sent a strong signal to the world--and to the left--with his speech on religion last year, in which he perpetuated untrue stereotypes about Democrats in order to present himself as a new kind of Democrat. What's the word for that? Oh yeah: cynicism. Here's a bite:

"Democrats, for the most part, have taken the bait. At best, we may try to avoid the conversation about religious values altogether, fearful of offending anyone and claiming that - regardless of our personal beliefs - constitutional principles tie our hands."

Do Democrats really try to "avoid the conversation about religious values."? Of course not, and he knows it. And Senator Obama, I'd love for you to name one Dem who claims that "constitutional principles" prevent him or her from talking about religion. Just one.

And then came the debate about Iraq, in which he claimed that the push for defunding led by Feingold would hurt the troops.

On both values and national security--the GOP two most potent political weapons--Obama helped to pepetuate GOP lies about Dems. It's not wonder he hasn't found the netroots an especially hospitable place.


by david mizner on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:36:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Worthless Hillary (3.00 / 1)

Hillary's had access, over the past few years, to a pretty serious bully pulpit.  Few can get the quick attention of the media that she can.

But I'll be damned if I can remember any fights she's led.  She's been content to stay in the background, and be a nuts-and-bolts sort of Senator, which is fine if you're not planning on being a leader.

So what fight has she led?  Has she led the fight for troop withdrawals from Iraq?  Did she lead the fight to save Social Security?  Did she lead the fight against Alito's confirmation?  Did she lead the fight against the Military Commissions Act?

Where's the beef?


by RT on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:52:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Worthless Hillary (3.00 / 0)

I remember a lot of fights, like her recent partnership with Joementum to impose the nanny state on video game players-

http://www.esrb.org/about/news/12072006. jsp

"We all share in the responsibility of making sure our children play age-appropriate video games, and I'm pleased that the ESRB and retailers are working together to educate parents about the video game ratings and make sure they are enforced," said Senator Clinton

Glad to see Hillary has her pulse on the nation, always championing the causes of the people.


by js5 on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 04:52:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

It may be lower than it was, but I don't think it is possible for any Clinton to step out of that shadow by this point.
by Chris Bowers on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:58:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

BS - Hill-dog uses straw men. "Some on the left would say..."

Umm, also... Iraq. She didn't just vote for it. She supported it for wayyyy too long.


by mermzilla on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:04:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Lost in all this (3.00 / 1)

is policy. While the big bloggers have a fetish for puglism, most of us plebes just like big ideas and bold progressivism. Transformational campaigns. You know who else like transformational campaigns? Joe Trippi--he's signed on to work for Edwards. How do you like them apples?

http://blog.johnedwards.com/story/2007/4 /19/15828/7350


by david mizner on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:41:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

I think that you are wrong about #1 when it comes to Hillary as well.  She does not back away from the Democratic party, its members or its principles.  Liebermanitis is not something she suffers from in words or deeds.

It seems to me that you might have let your feelings about some of her corporatist stances  bleed into your judgment of what she says or does about the party.

She may talk like a bureaucrat, but she is proud to be a Democrat. She doesn't use Republican talking points to bash her own party.  

As you note some of the other leaders do have difficulties with 1 and 3. Some are good on all of them like Edwards.

But I do think there is such a bias against her in the netroots that when she says or does good things and doesn't do Dem bashing; especially when it comes to the blogosphere, it's like she is the tree falling in a forest and even if the blogosphere is there, it isn't listening.  

PS  Richardson wasn't such a progressive Dem when he was in Congress.


by debcoop on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 07:33:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

In my view, Chris' analysis is spot on. It seems that Obama's support remains high in the blogospere due to his character even though he doesn't meet all the criteria, and Hillary will never be well-liked by us, as she's a triangulating centrist. Edwards is liked precisely because he meets the above criteria. To me, that seems to  suggest that Edwards is the best candidate.


by Joe Piucci on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 02:50:29 PM EST

That's What He Said (3.00 / 0)

Uh, Chris...weren't you the one posting a few days ago about how few female netroots candidates there are?  

Why the use of non-inclusive language, especially in the year we have the first really serious female candidate?


by rayspace on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 02:57:42 PM EST

Re: That's What He Said (none / 0)

Are you suggesting Hillary should get the nomination for no other reason than her gender?


by js5 on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 04:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's What He Said (none / 0)

that's clearly not what's being suggested.  the diary repeatedly says, "Does HE etc etc?"  this implies selection bias, as Chris graciously admits.

my proposal:  the netroots should early on adopt a female Democratic challenger to a male Republican and make her a standard-bearer.  and I suggest Darcy Burner.


"I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned."--John McCain
by lorax on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 05:39:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

Chris, I disagree with your assessment of Edwards, even though I think he'd make the best POTUS of the big 3 (assuming we're working with a trifecta in 08).

I'd say that on point 2, Edwards falters. His rhetoric doesn't come off as conversational. This may have to do with the fact that he has actual liberal policy positions, and that we're not used to a candidate who talks about them in a positive way. Still, he seems somewhat detached, as if he hasn't really interacted with 'normal' people.

For example -- his response to the Katie Couric interview should have had at least SOME anger. She was clearly out of line, especially considering her personal history (working during her husbands cancer). I don't think that 'real people' would react in such a detached manner.

The only candidate in the big 3 who comes off as remotely normal is Obama. I think that this will ultimately win him the nomination, which will be an incredibly positive change, though he'll be less progressive than Edwards.

The present-day Edwards doesn't triangulate, which I respect. IMO, Obama triangulates way too much. This could wind up killing his chances in the primary if that impression hardens. Obama could use his exceptional oratory skills to justify/humanize progressive policies, but he takes a 'post-ideological' 'biographical' 'non-confrontational' tone that is safe and self-serving.

Also, with regards to Hill-dog, I think you've got the judgment about #4 all wrong. She may fight back against Republicans in her own self-serving way, but she's completely caved to the corporate media. Ideologically, she stands for nothing. She's the status-quo candidate, and I think that has to do with the fact that she's terrified of what opposing big business could do to her presidency (see: Hillary Care). It also has to do with the fact that all of her friends and associates are rich, influential insiders who benefit from the current political order.

Basically, she CAN'T oppose the corporate media, because she's in too deep. Do you ever see Clinton calling free trade a myth? Does she ever challenge the 'free market'? No. She's against any and all structural reforms. I'm terrified that she'll be elected and go back to that shitty focus-group symbolic v-chip governance of the 90's.

So no to Clinton on #4, because she's a part of the corporate media -- she won't challenge it or 'fight back' in any kind of meaningful way.

PS. I'll give you $50 if you call Hillary Hill-dog from now until the end of the primary...


by mermzilla on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:02:28 PM EST

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

It's true about Edwards.  He speaks with conviction, but I can't ever recall seeing anger from him, even when it's justified.  Maybe it's the mark of a supremely composed man, but I'd like to see some of this from him.

Consider the recent allegation from the Kerry camp, which Edwards apparently disputes, that Kerry kept begging him to go into attack dog mode against Bush/Cheney during the '04 campaign and Edwards kept taking the high road.  Wouldn't you have loved to see a little more fire in him during that debate with Cheney, something like what we saw from Bill Clinton on Fox News?

I like the overall package Edwards brings to the table, but this does concern me.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:31:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards (1.00 / 1)

As an Obama supporter, I can see why you might take flak for not being harder on Edwards, as that's the norm around these parts. But I don't agree that you should. He's a great candidate...I think the problems he has go beyond the list, and that's too bad.

As far as Obama, I don't really have a problem with someone running for the White House claiming that the current state of affairs is not good enough, Democrats included.

Despite the higher approvals that Congress is getting these days, and that Democratic ideas are more popular than Republican, the majority of Americans seem to believe that politics is really broken in this country, and they'd be right. Running against the establishment isn't such a bad thing. I'm sure people here will have a million different ways to interpret Obama's stance, but to me, however you want to paint it, that's not a bad thing. Our side can and should be better than they have been.

And I'd disagree thoroughly that Obama has any trouble with #3. He could spend time at his rallies railing against Bush and the Republicans, and maybe that's what some people want. But isn't that part of the problem with politics? That we are so quick to tear down and vilify those who see the world differently? Obama's way seems like a new, better way to me.


by mihan on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:07:38 PM EST

Re: Edwards (none / 0)

"Running against the establishment isn't such a bad thing."

Yea. I agree. Who are you talking about though?
The guy who has ties to General Dynamics? The guy who doesn't support single-payer?

I'll gladly take Obama as POTUS - he'd probably be the very best candidate when it come to repairing America's relationship with the outside world, and his general campaign would be a cakewalk (the GOP would be, justifiably, branded as racist and get slaughtered in the suburbs), but Obama is far from anti-establishment.

At best, he's symbolically anti-establishment, in that his victory would disprove the MSM's 'Clinton is inevitable' narrative. But I bet that getting him to do the right thing will be like pulling teeth.

Let's hope I'm wrong about that last point, because Obama IS going to be our next president.


by mermzilla on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:14:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards (1.00 / 1)

Well, its just fine for me because I have friends who work for General Dynamics, and even I don't support single-payer...at least not right away.

What I'm talking about with Obama is that he's running as the outsider. When I say anti-establishment I should know better than to be vague since I'm from Eugene, OR...I'm not talking about anarchy, protest the WTO type anti-establishment. I guess in Presidential politics, to me, that means that he's not an inside-the-beltway type who has yet to be corrupted by that line of thinking. He, and maybe now once again John Edwards, have exclusive claims to that on the Dem side.

I'm convinced however that the best Presidents aren't in the business of trying to make everybody happy, and that's probably the way Obama is going to work. But his record is such that I don't think we're going to have a lot of disagreement with him on ideology.


by mihan on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:22:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards (none / 0)

Sorry to rain on your parade but Obama running as an outsider is a joke.

He's loved by the DC medie elite
He's the favorite candidate of Wallstreet
He has made inroad to K Streer and no he is breaking his pledge not to tale lobbyist money by having his finance team contact lobbyists and then tell them that their wife's can give. So Obama is taking lobbysit money and he knows it.

His campaign is being run by Axelrod and other former Daschle and Gephadrt aids that have "establishment" written all over them

Barack Obama is a mirage
All of the "hope"
All of the talk of "small politics"
It's all a smokescreen to keep us from seeing that he has absolutely no substance

Barack "Wallstreet" Obama - no thanks


by Edwards Supporters United on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 04:20:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards (3.00 / 1)

Did you vote for Nader in 2000? Just curious. This post reminds me of the "Gore is an evil capitalist" diatribe.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 06:20:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards and Obama (none / 0)

I have nothing against a candidate being against the status quo, but I want to know what his/her alternative is.

With Edwards, it's pretty clear.  He's the Dem candidate who's most willing to stand for what the base stands for, and most willing to take on the GOP and its surrogates (such as Fox News) head-on.

Obama's more the "I want to rise above that whole petty political conflict" sort of guy, but the problem is whether rising above the whole conflict can be turned into a way of achieving the aims one normally would try to achieve by engaging in, and then winning, the conflict.

And it's not yet clear whether he's willing to even try that hard.  He's shown a too-quick willingness to back down on Iraq, to justify the Administration's claim that Congress is merely making a political statement right now.  He's not been willing yet to say where he stands on universal health care.  A transcendent Obama might be able to do things politically that no one else has, but I'm worried that what we're getting from him is a gloss of transcendence atop a layer of wishywashiness.


by RT on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 04:39:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards and Obama (none / 0)

Obama's more the "I want to rise above that whole petty political conflict" sort of guy, but the problem is whether rising above the whole conflict can be turned into a way of achieving the aims one normally would try to achieve by engaging in, and then winning, the conflict.

I think it is clear that it can be turned into a way of achieving more than any other politician could.  But like you, I think the real question is will Obama do that, or will he simply act like he might and then let us down.


by TimSackton on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 04:55:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards and Obama (1.00 / 1)

Oh jesus, its more of the usual pro-Edwards anti-Obama nonsense. I really don't have time to keep getting into this stuff if the discussions are going to keep looking the same.


by mihan on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 05:40:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards (1.00 / 1)

No support for single-payer? I take it you're either very rich, have outstanding health insurance given to you by your company, or you've just never had a major illness or been in a hospital. Which?


by js5 on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 04:55:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards (1.00 / 1)

I didn't say no support, I just said not yet. You are much too quick to be making assumptions, given that you know exactly nothing about me. For the record I'm a college student military veteran who still goes to the VA for physical therapy and other various conditions. Asshole.

I've seen what happens to states that tried the single-payer route...and it wasn't pretty. See Oregon, 2002 I believe. If it were to happen nationally it would have to be gradual and over a very long period of time. I do believe single-payer to be the most effective and efficient way to deliver healthcare, but I don't support it yet because it can't happen, yet.


by mihan on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 05:38:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards (none / 0)

We don't need to get into name calling or anything, but it's easy to be against single payer when you already have it yourself.
The VA, from what little I know, is a very effective and efficient example of single payer.
Why wouldn't you want to share with the rest of us the benefits you already get?
by jujube on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 11:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards (1.00 / 1)

it's easy to be against single payer when you already have it yourself.

That, is incredibly stupid. Wouldn't it be much easier to be for single-payer, living under that system myself? Yes, you're right, if you're lucky enough to have been shot at, experience a traumatic brain injury, to experience severe psychological disorders, or to be in hopeless poverty, you do get to go to a hospital and not get billed for it, provided you served honorably.

There are benefits and there are pitfalls. Pitfalls being these: appointments take forever to get...much longer than my wife who has one of the better HMOs. Very little choice in general practice doctors, none in specialists. Generic-brand drugs only, and you must follow a specific formulary. Great for the most part, but sometimes you're limited to a choice one type of drug, and you may need another because you don't react well to that one type. Only its not covered and its nearly impossible to get the VA to cover it.

You can only go to the VA ER unless you're having a heart attack or some other issue. Nursing is chronically understaffed on inpatient floors. The VA does not use Float pools, which means if someone calls in sick at the last minute, the remaining staff often must make do. Nurses are also required to 'team lead', meaning they are in charge of an LPN who is doing an RN's work...the RN in charge of the LPN has their own patients to deal with, and must be responsible for the LPNs patients as well.

I could go on and on and freaking on.

But my opposition to single-payer is not related to this. This system could be improved, and likely would not be as problematic as the VA. Rather, I favor a universal healtcare system along the lines of John Edwards...with an eventual, gradual, long-term transition to single-payer that would start with insuring children that way. Single-payer is not going to happen without a major national transition. I prefer Edwards and Obama stance of finding achievable goals and actually reaching them, rather than replication Clinton's failed effort.


by mihan on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 07:16:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards (none / 0)

Perhaps I was unclear, but I don't think what I said was stupid: the largest beneficiaries of universal health care are those 45 million americans with no health care and the 50-90 million more who are under covered. You don't fall into that class, so it might be easier for you to take a slow incremental approach.

I certainly wasn't saying you are "lucky" to have been shot at etc. I respect your service and I think veterans deserve all the medical benefits they get and far more. I think its a disgrace that Veterans ever fail to get the best possible care and benefits. One of the issues that  infuriates me most about this administration and the republicans in general, is all their talk about supporting the troops and then cutting veterans benefits...

I also don't know nearly enough about the details to make a strong argument, but your complaints about the VA sound pretty much like complaints with many if not most insurance plans. I have almost no choice in doctors, I have to take the generic drugs prescribed if I want them paid for, there are too few nurses everywhere in the country, I have to get preapproval to get emergency service, and I actually think I have a very good health plan.

I'm all for any plan that covers more people Edwards, Obama, even Clinton's two term "plan" would be better than the status quo. However, single-payer to my mind is the obvious most efficient, most effective means to achieve that. I think the only argument against single payer is that you would put lots of insurance workers out of business and lose money for a lot of insurance company stockholders, and those aren't sufficient reasons.

Lastly, it's totally false to try to blame single payer for the failure of the Clinton health care plan. It was anything but single payer. It's huge flaw was the incomprehensible complexity necessitated by trying to include insurance companies. It gets accused (I think falsely) of failing because it was over ambitious, in trying to cover everyone at once, but that is a flaw with any universal plan, not specifically single payer, which it was not.

I think people like leaders, if someone (more credible than Kucinich) proposed and argued for single payer, it would be ultimately easier to pass/implement than a complex universal coverage system that maintains private insurers and includes complicated mandates and subsidies. But I'll support whatever option there is cover more people.


by jujube on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 05:35:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards and single payer (none / 0)

Right on, jujube! We need single payer and we need it now!

Speaking from the standpoint of a self-employed person paying $270 monthly individual premiums for a 20% copay plan that will cost me maybe $5,000 out of pocket for an upcoming knee repair, and glad to have it, because I know self-employed people in other states who cannot buy health insurance at any price, I could praise and reinforce what you wrote paragraph by paragraph.

Instead, I'll correct an error and strengthen your argument: Under single-payer universal health insurance, we won't have massive layoffs of rand-and-file health insurance company employees. The program will no doubt function the way Medicare does. Medicare outsources claims regionally on the basis of bids, and most of the bidders, to my knowledge, are health insurance companies. All those claims clerks now employed by health insurance companies are apt to keep similar jobs with their own or another health insurance company. There may even be more such jobs, because more people will be covered. Those who'll lose their jobs will be most of those at the top of the pyramid, particularly those in advertising, sales, formulation of claims denial schemes, lobbying, and the like.

Another talking point is the entrepreneurship and invention to be unleashed by single-payer universal health care insurance. Hundreds of thousands of stymied employees are eager to start new companies, follow a dream, or work on their own but do not dare because initiative would be punished with loss of employer-sponsored health insurance.


by joyful alternative on Sat Apr 21, 2007 at 09:20:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards (none / 0)

It's really easy to be against single-payer health care when the government pays all your medical expenses. So I was spot on in my analysis.


by js5 on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 12:44:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards (1.00 / 1)

that doesn't make any sense at all.


by mihan on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 01:48:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards (none / 0)

Sure it does. If your employer (i.e. the government) gives you, free of charge, the best medical care money can buy, then you have no reason to think "the system is broken".

The system is broken for everyone else, but that doesn't spur you to act because you don't understand what it means to have to fork over thousands of dollars in copays with a crappy insurance, or have to go without medical care entirely because of no insurance.

It's the same reason that the mega-wealthy tend to vote Republican. Why support politicians who look out for the little guy when that's just going to cost you money?


by js5 on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 06:05:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards (none / 0)

You're making wild assumptions about people by claiming to know, based on their current situation, that they have no empathy for others. Somehow I don't think that being a veteran with spinal issues and getting treatment for that means that I don't understand that people have problems with their healthcare. Not only have I been uninsured, but I have parents, friends and relatives who have had trouble with their coverage, and I have one relative that had the misfortune of developing cancer while uninsured. So before you hurl this crap at me again I'd take an awfully long look at yourself and ask whether or not you should be making these kinds of assumptions.

Oh, and by the way, the rating system is not used as a means of getting revenge on someone for accurately troll-rating your obnoxious and disruptive comments. I'll make sure the administrators pay attention to you.


by mihan on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 06:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards (none / 0)

Oh, so you don't like what I have to say, so you just figure you'll troll-rate my comments, huh? Can't argue anything on its merits so you've got to resort to that when someone sticks it to you. Nice.


by mihan on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 01:22:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards (none / 0)

Edwards is a good candidate, and meets these criteria.  But it's true that he is appealing directly to us (the base) because we are his only chance.  He needs an angle to get ahead, and this is his only option.  He doesn't have a long progressive track record.

Obama is a life-long progressive who cunningly cultivates the image of a moderate.  I believe he would govern to the left of Edwards -- and because he would portray himself as a centrist, he would move the center itself to the left.  I think he'll be able to accomplish more than Edwards, who will be easy to for the right to pigeon-hole, demonize, and isolate.

If a true progressive is seen as a moderate (Obama), the center of the debate moves to the left.  If a moderate is seen as a hardcore liberal (Edwards) the center of the debate moves to the right.

Obama has the luxury of taking the high road, because (as we've already seen) anyone who attacks him will look like a racist!  If he triumphs, the right-wing message machine will go into a tailspin.  Edwards, on the other hand, is ripe for the smearing.


by grimm on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 12:53:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That didn't work for Harold Ford (none / 0)

It's much easier to "frame" as a lefty, a career politician from Chicago, that it is a self-made millionaire from South Carolina.


by Cyt on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 06:27:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That didn't work for Harold Ford (1.00 / 1)

And its much easy to frame a multi-millionaire, even a self-made one, from South Carolina as an insincere populist.


by mihan on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 07:18:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Right On (none / 0)

First off, I usually wouldn't say something like this but that list, no matter who you support in 08', is right on.  All candidates backed by the progressive movement should pass all of these tests.  We are at a point in time where doing what is morally right is also politically advantageous (at least concerning the vast majority of issues.

With that said, there can be no doubt that Edwards (from late 2005 on) has passes all of these tests.  As far as the originial post on the bar fight primary is concerned, as recently as last year he included a rant against the banktruptcy bill in the most of his speeches (he doesn't write his speeches before hand he just writes down a few subjects he wants to cover).  This is one issue where I think even the non-Edwards supporters should give him credit.

His campaign would not refer to him repeatedly as a "progresive champion" if they we're not saying to us "he's with you".  Listen to him at the MoveOn town hall.  

Who do you think he was talking to when he told Democrats that thisis not about making Lieberman happy?

Who do you think he was talking to when he hit Obama for his "chicken" remark?

What about when he was first to say no to both FOX debates?  Or when he was first to call for both Alberto Gonzales and Paul Wolfowitz to go?
He was the first to back Webb's Iran legislation.  He was the first to respond to DFA's call for a clear plan to end the war.  What about when he was the only Democrat to mention Molly Ivins at the DNC meeting.  Why do you think he has made "reclaim the Democratic Party" his rallying cry?  Why has he so often mentioned "backbone"?  If you watch the video he sent out for the national house party day there are two presidents he mentions.  FDR and JFK.  No Carter, no Clinton.  Why do you think that is?

There is a difference between pandering to and showing solidarity with.  His campaign has gone to great lengths to show solidarity with us.  He is a candidate of substance and he is conviction driven. He is just the kind of candidate we have been waiting for.  Frankly, I don't see why the progressive movement isn't MORE behind him.

As far as the elites are concerned, they HATE him, just like they hate us.  He has no support on K Street and he is the ONLY Democrat who isn't trying to change that.  Clinton is loved by K-Street.  Edwards is hated by Wallstreet.  You can imagine why.  Obama is literally Wallstreet's favorite.  This has been reported numerous times recently.  He has honored his "no lobbyists money" pledge in letter only but not in spirit.  One lobbyist even said that he was directed to have his wife give the money, which the Obama campaign allows so they have a way to get the money.  Obama's camp said that the whole pledge was a "symbolib gesture".  Sometimes, symbolic gestures are important, but when you say "no lobbyist money" we expect just that.  Obama is a psuedo reformer, at best.  

We want a candidate who doesn't bow to the elites, right.  Edwards is the only major candidate who spent NO money on polling.  None.  Compare that to Obama's $100,000 plus and Clinton's %277,000 that she owes to Mark Penn, the guy who got kicked off the Gore campaign for rigging his polls to fit his centrist views.

What about the campaign staff?  We already know that Clinton's staff (except for her blogger outreach) is loaded with people who hate the progressive movement and have since the 90's when they were mad that we actually wanted Bill Clinton to be the president that he campaigned on being.

Obama's staff is chock full of ex Daschle and ex Gephardt staff.  This is probably the reason why he has been so unimpressive.  He had all of the hype in the world and now it has all fallen flat.  They said that they wanted him to "tone down the rhetoric" (because he was being called on being too fluffy) and run a "personality driven" campaign that would be a "practically ideology free campaign".  Go to The Hotline and read it for yourself.  

And then there is Edwards.  His campaign is run by David Bonoir, one of the greatest economic populists of our time.  He believes in the campaign so much that he isn't even taking a salary.  Name one other time that you have you  of that happening, especially on such a major campaign.

Clinton hates us, Obama is willing to Sistah Souljah us and will do it again (of course he wouldn't be surprised by what is on progressive blogs, they aren't conservative blogs, they aren't mushy centrist blogs, they are progressive blogs). Edwards goes out of his way to show us that he is with us.  None of us should have a problem with people here responding to that.  We could always chase Obama and hope that he throws us a bone when he's not busy slamming the party in his book so he can look like Mr. Political Koom ba ya, but what would that accomplish?

The candidate who best represents our values is also the most electable, and he is proud to be a Democrat and proud to stand by the progressive movement when we need him the most.  Is this really a difficult choice?  I don't think so.    


by Edwards Supporters United on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:25:26 PM EST

Obama Unimpressive? (none / 0)

What planet are you on?


by flerkk on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 04:41:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Unimpressive? (none / 0)

Obama's advisors told him to "tone down the rhetoric"  So he tried a few intervies that way but they were exremely boring.  SO now, on top of having no substance he is boring to boot


by Edwards Supporters United on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 04:52:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Unimpressive? (none / 0)

If Obama was any more toned-down, he wouldn't be talking at all.


by js5 on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 04:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ok, I like Edwards too but (none / 0)

you have to admit that playing to the base is the only way he can win the primaries. He cannot compete with Clinton or Obama on any other level.

So maybe, just maybe, Edwards recent conversion into a raging progressive is just as calculated as any move by Clinton or Obama?


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 06:25:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ok, I like Edwards too but (3.00 / 1)

I think he'll be able to compete with them very favorably on a stage.  In a vacuum Obama looks "inspiring;" next to Edwards I think he'll just look vague.  And any opportunity for Hillary to speak is an opportunity for her to lose ground to the others.


"If [John Edwards] seems too good to be true, well, so be it; instead, you can pick a candidate who's bad enough to be plausible." - Daily Kos user Drew
by Junior Bug on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 10:38:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

Well at least you used the accurate pronoun for a netroots supported candidate.  He should...  He should...

As A. Adams once said, "dear don't forget the ladies"


by livia on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:28:46 PM EST

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

I agree with Chris about the differences between Obama's and Edwards' rhetoric.  Obama does talk about the politics of unity, about a new kind of politics.  He is a radically different candidate that Paul Hackett was, and I think that he clearly doesn't always buy into the favored style of some in the netroots, the backs-to-the-wall, bar-fight style of politics.  Edwards is a lot closer to this ideal.   But I'm not sure that rhetorical differences implies substantive differences in policy approaches.  For example, it isn't clear to me that Edwards would necessarily propose more progressive policy as President than Obama would, despite the more "netroots-friendly" style of his rhetoric.

As someone who wavers between supporting Obama and Edwards (but who hasn't contributed to either yet), I feel torn about how much importance to give this issue.  I think that the particular style outlined in Chris' post is really about figuring out who we can trust.  Obama is clearly a brilliant orator, and if I really trusted him to be true to his progressive roots, I think he has the potential to really radically shift the political center in this country leftwards, moreso even than Edwards could.  It is just that Edward's style makes it easier to trust him, at least for me.


by TimSackton on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:38:13 PM EST

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (3.00 / 1)

And I think your last statement is the rub of the difference between Obama and Edwards. The question is that of whom do you trust more.

Despite some more outrageous comments suggesting that Obama is (and will be) a sellout to the progressive movement, I think the differences between Obama and Edwards are (in April 2007) slight. Perhaps Chris is correct in suggesting that Edwards is rhetorically more willing to roll back his gloves and engage in partisan warfare, or at least more willing to stake the progressive position on many issues facing the nation. However, I suggest that Edwards is more free to take that road, because he is not in the Senate and forced to take concrete positions.

But, the question is really that of trust (first), and then which candidate is best able to transform politics.

by thetadelta on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 04:23:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

I should add that I think progressives have many, many reasons to be wary of putting their trust in Democratic leaders, considering how often we've been sold out in the past decade.  The fact that Edwards is willing to talk to the netroots in our language is appealing, and the fact that Obama often uses language that reminds us of the Democratic establishment is discouraging.  But I'm very hesitant to conclude that, in the end, this difference in style really means that Edwards will be a more progressive President, although it does probably make it easier for him to gain the trust of progressives.


by TimSackton on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 04:37:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

John Edwards has shown us time and time again that we can trust him. What else does he have to do?  Obama has done nothing to show us that we can trust him, nothing.  He is out for himself.  His camapaign is about one think, and that is Barack Obama.There is no substance. No solidarity with the progressive movement.  Compare Obama With Edwards, it's not even close.  


by Edwards Supporters United on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 04:28:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (3.00 / 1)

This kind of rhetoric does not help Edwards' cause.  Edwards' history is not particularly progressive.  Yes, his rhetoric is progressive and populist now, and I really do understand its appeal.

But Obama's speeches are very powerful in their own way, at least in my opinion, and I think you do him a disservice to dismiss him as substanceless and out for himself.  

The truth of the matter, as I see it, is that either has the potential to be an incredible President (although really any of our candidates would be such a big step up from what we've currently got that it will seem like they are an incredible President, at least for a little while).


by TimSackton on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 04:51:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (1.00 / 1)

Saying that my kind of rhetoric doesn't help his cause is ridiculous.  Anyone who would not vote for him based on somthing I did id an idiot.  Confrontation is often necessary.  Whiny Turds like you might get upset but get over it

The point is that Obama is loved by Wallstreet so much that it ruins the arguement of anyone who is trying to say that Obama is some hreat change agent


by Edwards Supporters United on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 05:01:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

Edwards is a different candidate now then he was then and that is why a lot of us are u=supporting him.  Look at the Hackett Test, he passes it easily


by Edwards Supporters United on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 05:02:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

If you had read my previous posts, you would see that I in fact agreed with Chris that Edwards' looks pretty good based on the Hackett Litmus test.  

As hard as it may be for some people to believe, there are actually some of us who are genuinely undecided, and who appreciate rational discussion as opposed to ridiculous insults.


by TimSackton on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 05:43:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

I agree with everything you've said on this thread, TimSackton, which is why I'm reading mydd comments less and less. There's plenty of time left for us to make up our minds, and some of the Edwards fans here are turning me off his candidacy with the strident smears.


by joyful alternative on Sat Apr 21, 2007 at 09:33:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (1.00 / 0)

But why si he different? Out of calculation? Will he switch back to a moderate Democrat when the primaries are over? Obama has been a progressive all his life, not just the past two years.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 06:28:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

Why do you care if his rhetoric will or won't help Edwards? That's concern trolling at it's finest.

"Don't tell the truth about Obama, it'll um, hurt Edwards, somehow"


by js5 on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 05:06:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not just (3.00 / 0)

rhetoric, it's policy positions. Edwards has offered a serious of bold and detailed proposals that together amount to a comprehensive plan to help the poor, the working class, and the middle class. They can be found at his website. He prays neither to balanced budgets nor "free" trade and as such has fully broken with Rubinesque neoliberalism, which, by all signs, informs Obama's ideology--although he would claim to transcend ideology.


by david mizner on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 05:08:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not just (none / 0)

The question though is how much should we evaluate Edwards based on his November 2004 - April 2007 stances and how much based upon his 1999-2004 policy positions? I agree, right now, Edwards, policy positions are more appealing, but alone amongst the top tier candidates, he is free(r) to articulate policy positions without the burden of holding elected office.  


by thetadelta on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 06:13:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not just (none / 0)

Also, he is forced to take this road since Clinton and Obama are locking up the establishment and the low info voters.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 06:29:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not just (3.00 / 0)

Sure, a mixture of principle and positioning, though, it should be said, he charted this course long before he knew that Obama would be running for president. He's been speaking to and marching with workers since his last campaign, and he chose to found a center on poverty. I think Edwards Independence Day was when he defied his consultants, who tried to get him to remove the first line "I was wrong" from his mea culpa piece about Iraq.

Here I'll whore a piece I wrote about his evolution.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/3/9/8 323/81341

It's my feeling that it took him a while to embrace a political philosophy that suited his deeply engrained populist sensibilites--a journey prolonged by his representing North Carolina. He's been a pol for less than a decade. You could see him find his voice in 03 when he started talking about poverty, but his agenda wasn't there yet. Now it is. Is it sincere? To my eyes, at least, he looks like a man at peace.


by david mizner on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 06:50:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards was speaking about poverty 5 years ago (none / 0)

It's not his fault Iraq dominated the last elections and drowned out his message.


by Cyt on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 06:32:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

research Obama and Edwards and then answer below (none / 0)

What are you looking for in a President?
by yann123, Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:44:48 PM EST

I have been wondering,as many of you have I'm sure ,which candidate is going to fill the President's shoes.

What are you looking for? Same qualities as Pres. Bush(!)..a bit more center or a bit more to the left...and what does all that mean anyway in today's terms.

About a year ago I was listening to the radio in my car and pulled over to write down - what are the character traits of a great leader. A professor of Moral Leadership from the Center of Ethics was speaking about the values our leaders should have.These were the character traits she mentioned:

-integrity
-relationship skills(how well a leader can understand or relate to others problems)
-honesty
-good listener
-sincerely apologize,when wrong
-share credit,take blame
-communication skills
-sharing the hardship with the "troops"(willing to do the work that they expect others to do),roll up their sleeves
-role model
and....
-if placed under certain pressure will still stand behind the above character traits

Is this not what we ALL want in a leader?

I would like to know how your values ring right about now...
What are you looking for in a leader?
So next time you are all watching,listening,
reading about the Presidential candidates,try to look into the candidates a bit deeper, a bit closer and don't just pay attention to the surface media frenzy.
We have  right now a candidate who is ready to be our Leader-John Edwards.


by yann123 on Tue May 22, 2007 at 01:05:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

I don't think Obama talks like a regular person.  He talks like my Constitutional Law professor... wonder why ;-)


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:40:26 PM EST

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (3.00 / 1)

It is possable to think that while Edwards at this point may have the most progressivie policy positions, Obama may the best candidate for progressives because of his unique ability to "sell" mainstream  democratic values to the masses, which will result in more progress on
specific issues.
Obama! because 51% isn't enough!
by nevadadem on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:40:27 PM EST

A Litmus Test...Really? (3.00 / 1)

I think even the consideration of using a litmus test is mildly reprehensible.  There are so many non-tangible aspects to the method people approach the complex world of politics, that to try to wrap it up in a little package is somewhat naive.  

For me, none of these topics speak to my concerns.  I'm much more focused on narrative - what will the candidate we nominate say about the progressive cause and where it's going?  There's no way that something like that can be calculated by a list full of yes or no questions.


"Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat." - William Sloane Coffin, Jr.
by Nasara on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 03:40:55 PM EST

Re: A Litmus Test...Really? (1.00 / 1)

Litmus test is just a fancy way of saying "we have standards that must be met."

So logically, can I assume that you have NO STANDARDS by which you measure a candidate?

What exactly is a narrative? George Bush says we're winning in Iraq, that's his narrative. Is he right or wrong or lying?


by js5 on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 05:10:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good unity, Bad unity. (none / 0)

See, I don't think Obama does anything to deny that he is progressive, or a Democrat.  And he certainly hasn't been trying to paint himself as a Republican or Bushie.

Whereas your DLC style triangulation says that in order to win, and in order to be a unifying figure, you must co-opt Republican issues by taking a right-wing position, I get a different vibe from the brand of "politics of unity and purpose" Obama is sporting.

As so many people on this site are fond to point out: universal health care, reforming Medicare Part D, transparency in government funding, the Iraq War, minimum wage and a whole host of other issues are ones where the majority is on the Progressive side.  The center is left of where Washington thinks it is.

And what I get from Obama is that he is not attempting to triangulate towards the Republican position, but instead trying to capture that progressive center of America.  And while he speaks to that center, he still has the most progressive voting record over the course of the last legislative session of the whole field.  The biggest landslides in recent history were acheived by Ronald Reagan, who pulled the center of American politics to the right with him, and that's how a politics of unity and purpose can push the crowd.

Similarly, I don't see Obama trying to shed "progressive" or "Democrat".  I do see him trying to shed the current left/right spectrum in peoples minds.  And if he does so, that will be good.  Because he's still a progressive, and still a Democrat.

Think of it like taking out the wall to move the Overton Window.


Yours for the Revolution, Erik || Hope will heal us all.
by notapipe on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 04:03:44 PM EST

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (3.00 / 1)

I'm just not sure that a test relevant to legislative candidates in 2005-06 is the best way to measure presidential candidates in 2007-8, when Bush himself will not be on the ballot.  
And I also think it's important -- and this is the key distinction Obama implicitly makes -- to separate out opposing Republican leadership from trying to seek common ground with Republican voters.

by Adam B on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 04:11:37 PM EST

How did Lamont stack up (none / 0)

as far as this litmus test is concerned?

at least in the update it's admitted that a litmus test in which hillary fails is biassed against women.

that it is, indeed, a problem.


by Stewieeeee on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 06:04:47 PM EST

Gender language (none / 0)

Actually I just think it means that most female Dems don't have the trouble kicking GOP ass that the men do. They're not the wimps!


by MNPundit on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 07:13:13 PM EST

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (3.00 / 1)

The whole bar fight concept is pretty gendered.  Personally I always disliked the politics to fighting anologies.


by sterra on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 07:39:05 PM EST

Author's Note (none / 0)

I wrote that test and apart from being bitter that it isn't called the James Powell Litmus Test (kidding, really), I feel sometimes it was and is misunderstood.

I wrote it out of frustration.  It was a response to the corporate press/media's behavior, adopted even by "some Democrats" we know, which was to label any candidate supported by the left blogosphere or citizen activists as "far left."  Along with this was a tendency to magnify policy differences that were real, but not a barrier to broad support for Democratic candidates who were willing to stand up for the Democratic base and their interests rather than criticizing them or hiding from them.

It's true, as at least one person wrote, that there is no policy on this list.  There's a simple reason for that.  Until we get rid of Bush/Cheney and until we start to re-democratize the corporate press/media structure and until we can the dismantle the right-wing propaganda machine, our policy must be doing those things.  None of the policies we want to adopt and none of the policy areas that we deem important are going to get any attention until we make those changes.

This is the only time in my life that I said something that other people thought was interesting or important enough to quote and talk about.  It is very flattering.


by James Earl on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 08:23:08 PM EST

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

A litmus test to be a DEM?  Am I missing something?  A DEM is a DEM.  Whether you're a conservative, moderate or liberal DEM.  What difference does it make?


by lonnette33 on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 10:16:35 PM EST

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

I'm glad you qualify that this was off the cuff, because it's not much else.  I'd like you to flesh out where you can say Hillary isn't proud to be a Democrat or distances herself from the party or its leaders.  That's just so stupid to say.  Yes she may not have voted the way you wanted, we know IRAQ, but that she isn't a proud Democrat, give me a break.  You guys say Hillary is not Democratic enough, but then start panting at the thought of any of the Republicans, yes the hated Republicans, turning Blue.  It's okay if that Repub is anti-choice or more conservative, as long as they come over to our side.  You may want to stick to well thought out analysis instead of off the cuff.


by Kingstongirl on Thu Apr 19, 2007 at 11:54:46 PM EST

Re: Revisiting the Hackett Litmus Test (none / 0)

The unfortunate thing, though, is the most prominent candidates who have fared well against these standards have lost their elections. Howard Dean and Paul Hackett surely passed this test easily but couldn't translate their netroots popularity into votes in their respective Democratic primaries. [cross-posted to Framed]
by jftrumm on Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 11:03:41 AM EST


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