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Re: Ok Fine - Let's Talk About Misstatements (2.00 / 7)

Yeah but here's the thing...

You claimed that the story proved she misspoke FOUR TIMES.

Not true.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 11:28:50 PM EST
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Re: Ok Fine - Let's Talk About Misstatements (1.50 / 4)

The story says that she misspoke four times but, yes, you are right, it provided only two links.  
Don't worry, there will be a story soon with all four of them identified.  After all, CBS and other networks have found that she did tell the same false story four times.
We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 11:49:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, Alegre was right. (1.75 / 4)

Can't wait to hear the "story" about all of Obama's mis-statements! LOL


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 12:05:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, Alegre was right. (none / 0)

Yes. Except:

1. That list is largely BS from the Clinton campaign.

2. Those are legislative exaggerations. This was Hillary Clinton claiming to run into sniper fire. There's a difference....politically...between lying about these two things.


by Sinbad Sinbad on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 08:33:51 AM EST
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Re: Yes, Alegre was right. (2.00 / 1)

Sorry:

1. The source of documenting Obama's mis-statements is irrelevant. They're still lies.

2. Obama's "legislative" exaggerations are still whoppers. And frankly, grossly exaggerating your resume is grounds for firing at most respectable companies. Obama shouldn't be "hired."


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 10:19:03 AM EST
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Alegre is a Republican (none / 0)

How is quoting Hillary's book, and people working for Hillary proof that her account of what happend is accurate?


by munodi on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 01:51:17 PM EST
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Re: Alegre is a Republican (2.00 / 0)

How is Al is a republican any kind of answer?  If you accept Mr. obama's talking point that she is 'deeply flawed' and 'will do anything to be elected' then you can pick and chose what to believe and what not to. But most people see a preponderance of evidence, consistency and very few 'examples' of her misstating anything and no example of her not self-correcting, and think Obama is being a creep. That's way some of her supporters say they'll have a hard time voting for him, he's not honest about her and he's clearly the negative one.  She speaks about issues and he speaks about her character. Well, I guess if you have little positive to run on, going into the gutter looks high minded?  


by anna shane on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:05:08 PM EST
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Re: Yes, Alegre was right. (2.00 / 0)

Yes, there is a difference.  Lying about legislative accomplishments is worse than remembering an event inaccurately, but basically truthfully. Al Gore going to a disaster area with a FEMA guy, but he just named the wrong city, as I recall.  

Basically she went to a dangerous place wherever the snipers happened to be.  

But saying that you "stood up to powerful interests" to protect the people of Illinois from nuclear leaks was reported in the New York Times.  He said it to win the Iowa caucus.  It fit his image, but it was a big old easy lie.  

Whoever gets the nomination, they will be in for the "exaggerator" attacks by the press.  So we better get our McCain whoppers ready to lock and load.


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:20:38 PM EST
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Re: Ok Fine - Let's Talk About Misstatements (2.00 / 4)

That's not what I said at all.

There are in fact three other links at ben smith's site.

One deals with an incedent that may or may not be the one Sinbad flew in to.  For all we know it could relate to one of her trips to those outposts in a chopper.

The other two deal directly with the first on the 17th.

But the fact remains - there are 12 similar incidents listed above where BO got it wrong.  So WHY can't I get you to comment on any of those?

I mean you're clearly worried about politicians who get it wrong or make mistakes.  So why all this outrage over Hillary but yet when it comes to BO...

CRICKETS.

Come on - just one or two comments re BO here.  Don't you have ANY concerns or problems with what's posted above????


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 12:40:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ok Fine - Let's Talk About Misstatements (none / 0)

Do you really want me to repost my response to your multiple asking of the same question below?  It's not any different up there than it was when I posted it earlier down below.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 12:50:07 AM EST
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Re: Ok Fine - Let's Talk About Misstatements (2.00 / 1)

But the fact remains - there are 12 similar incidents listed above where BO got it wrong.  So WHY can't I get you to comment on any of those?
The BO statements are a smokescreen obscuring the core issue.  Did HRC tell a lie/misspeak/exaggerate about her trip to Bosnia?  "Yeah, but he did it too." is not a valid defense, nor does it have any relevence whatsoever to the facts in HRC's case.

If your diary were truly about mistatements by politicians and cited examples of several candidates to support a hypothesis, objective reporting of BO incidents might be worthy of discussion (and if they weren't straight off HRC's website).  As it is, however, you're merely citing HRC spin about BO to justify/obscure the unresolved (and that's being generous) issue of HRC's truthfulness on the Bosnia trip.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 09:01:52 AM EST
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Re: Ok Fine - Let's Talk About Misstatements (2.00 / 1)

An admirable attempt to change the subject!

I'll just take one of Senator Obama's "misstatements" -- that he referred to himself as a professor when he was only a lecturer.  

I spent a decade in a large research university as doctoral candidate, teaching assistant, and administrator.  As part of my administrative work, I managed lists of professors in all of our ten graduate schools.  "Lecturer" is a title related to someone's place in the academic hierarchy, akin to "Assistant Professor," "Associate Professor," or "Full Professor."  No one actually uses these titles when speaking about a professor, unless their specific focus is the academic hierarchy.  No one would ever refer to someone as "Assistant Professor Smith" or "Lecturer Obama," for that matter.  Certainly, the titles get used when the focus is on the person's place in the hierarchy, but it's not what people think of first -- unless they're focused on tenure or something like that. The simple way to think about is that, when professors talk about what they do, they call themselves "professor"; when they're focused on their seniority, they use titles like "lecturer" or "assistant professor."

In other words, all of Obama's students would have called him "Professor Obama."  When asked which professor taught a class, they would have said, "Professor Obama," rather than pointedly saying, "It's not a professor teaching the class.  It's Lecturer Obama."

Thus, there is absolutely no misstatement in Senator Obama's having referred to himself as a constitutional law professor.  If the follow-up question had been, "Were you tenure track?", he would have said, "No, I was a lecturer."

This whole "Obama called himself a professor when he was really just a lecturer business" business is silly.  Even if there were something to it, which there isn't, it's a pretty pathetic counterpart to Senator Clinton's false statements regarding Tuzla.


by deminva on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 09:14:28 AM EST
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Re: Ok Fine - Let's Talk About Misstatements (none / 0)

This is the lead off "misstatement" from Obama?  That he called himself a "professor" when he was a "lecturer"?  Really?  

Pardon me while I piss my pants laughing.

When I taught as a lecturer I was introduced as "professor" by colleagues in classes as well as during faculty-only meetings where I was introduced to a colleague ("Jim, hey, I want you to meet our newest professor, Lars Thorwald.  Lars is a lecturer this semester in the new regulatory course...").

Ask a tenured professor whether he or she thinks it is a misstatement.  

Now ask a veteran whether telling a tall tale about ducking and running to a car without a greeting ceremony because you were taking sniper fire (Clinton: "That is what happened") is a misstatement.  Or if they care.

You will get too very different answers.

This diary is the worst sort of parsing and dissembling I have read in a very long time.  It's Clintonian.  


by LarsThorwald on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 10:35:21 AM EST
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Re: Ok Fine - Let's Talk About Misstatements (none / 0)

er, two very different answers.  Pardon the typo.  I was...sleep deprived.  


by LarsThorwald on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 10:36:26 AM EST
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Keeping the Record Straight (2.00 / 0)

I have an attorney in Pennsylvania.  When I was considering hiring him I asked what his qualifications were.  He listed being an "adjunct law professor" at Duchesne University, a perfectly correct title.

Later, in an e-mail to associates, copied to him, I referred to him as a "law professor". He was quick to correct me.  "I'm not a full professor.  I'm a lecturer."

An honorable man would leave no doubt as to what his actual status was.  My attorney certainly didn't, and he wasn't running for President.


by creeper1014 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 10:52:10 AM EST
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Re: Keeping the Record Straight (none / 0)

Your attorney's two responses capture exactly what I'm talking about.  On a resume, an honorable person would be precise and write "Lecturer, University of Chicago School of Law."  But when you're talking about what you're doing, you don't say "I'm a constitutional law lecturer."  No one does--just as Lars says.

A simple way to think about the distinction is whether or not the word you're using should be capitalized.  Obama's title was "Lecturer," but his job was as a "constitutional law professor." In the same vein, I have a Ph.D. in English, so if anyone actually knew this, they might choose to refer to me as "Doctor Deminva," although I certainly don't work as a doctor.

As your attorney's response indicates, it's not uncommon for an adjunct professor to include the word adjunct when talking about what he or she does -- precisely because it's just an adjective added to the common word, i.e., professor.  

Bottom line: If you or anyone else can find any campus in the US where students say things like "Hey, who's the lecturer for that course?" or "Hi, Lecturer Jackson!", then you may have a case.  

Note, too, that as a state legislator, Senator Obama most likely had the title of Lecturer because he wasn't full-time faculty or because his legislative duties precluded his involvement in the sorts of things that tenure-track faculty do besides classroom teaching.  It wasn't that he couldn't get hired as an Assistant or Associate Professor at Chicago.


by deminva on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:16:06 PM EST
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Re: "Hi, Lecturer Jackson" (none / 0)

Your bottom line is not relevant to the question.

Bottom line: If you or anyone else can find any campus in the US where students say things like "Hey, who's the lecturer for that course?" or "Hi, Lecturer Jackson!", then you may have a case.

We are not talking about common usage among college students.  We are talking about a statement made by the candidate himself as recently as 2007  

"`I was a constitutional law professor, which means unlike the current president I actually respect the Constitution,' Obama told an audience at a campaign fundraiser." (Brendan Farrington, "Obama: Bush Fails To Respect The Constitution," The Associated Press, 3/30/07)

as well as in those earlier direct-mail pieces alegre mentioned, issued for Obama's primary [Senate] campaign.

Source:  Chicago Sun Times, Aug. 8, 2004 (Lynn Sweet, "Obama's Book: What's Real, What's Not" )

If my lawyer could be honest about it, why couldn't Barack Obama?


by creeper1014 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:07:07 PM EST
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Re: "Hi, Lecturer Jackson" (none / 0)

He was a constitutional law professor -- with the title of Lecturer.  It's the difference between asking someone what they do and what their rank is -- many of us have precisely analogous job names and separate official titles.  I used to joke with my mother about how proud she must be to have a son who was an "Agency Management Analyst -- General."  That was my official title from HR's perspective.


by deminva on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:12:42 PM EST
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Re: Ok Fine - Let's Talk About Misstatements (none / 0)

Article in Sun Times: February 12, 2007

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/ob ama/253391,CST-NWS-prof12.article (same Sunday Times that said he calls himself a professor when he's not)

Professor Obama was a listener, students say

'nuff said.


"More War Years! More War Years!" ~John McCain
by Tommy Flanagan on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 11:35:56 AM EST
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Because it shows (none / 0)

this is tactic of any defense of a liar.

I used to hear this all the time when I was a prosecutor. It is the first thing anyone does when they are caught.

It is an attempt to evade responsibility for the lie.  It is what children do when they are caught with their hand in the cookie jar.  It was what defense attorneys do when they know thier clients are guilty.

Hillary Clinton has lied about her experience in a fundemental way. It will be used again and again to attack her.

It's not her first lie (the Michigan example I have provided many times here, and I have NEVER had a response from a Clinton supporter here about that).


by fladem on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:06:44 PM EST
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Re: Ok Fine - Let's Talk About Misstatements (1.00 / 1)

H Rodham Clinton's Campaign.

This is a campaign?

I thought it was a long suicide note.

What a political joke the Clintons have become.

Malcolm


by malc19ken on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 09:31:20 AM EST
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