that he did not address the GI bill

First half..McCain...

Second Half...Obama.

A draw.

Obama more than held his own (and perhaps even beat McCain) on foreign policy.  McCain more than held his own on the economy.

Obama is as strong a dem as we have on foreign policy; that he didn't get destroyed on the surge or preconditions point was good (according to the CNN tracker).

McCain didn't get destroyed on the economy and we've got to work on how Obama can get out more ahead of McCain on this issue.  McCain turned it into a discussion about spending and earmarks, which are his strengths.

Hard to watch. Like watching your kids in a play and hoping they don't screw up.

McCain is a real asshole. He could not even force himself to look at Obama. His disdain is evident, he looked small but was crisp.

No game changer, and thats just fine because thats all Obama needed, he's ahead on points.

I feel uncomfortable about Obama's performance. He is too deferential in debates and let McCain run roughshod over him too many times.

That being said there was no big hit for either candidate which is okay (though not great) for Obama.

I thought Obama's best moments were when he hit McCain on his judgement to rush into Iraq and abandon Afghanistan.  

The two worst moments were "I am very proud of my VP pick" and "I have a bracelet too."  

Jury is still out about whether he was right to ignore the total condescension "he just doesn't understand" -- Obama clearly will do anything to avoid ever looking like the angry black man, ever, until the end of this campaign.

first thought. u are wrong

secondthought. "I gotta bracelet too!!"

There is no objective truth. The "winner" will be determined by the media using their usual alchemy. Al Gore won a debate only to find out much later that he actually lost badly (thanks to the media) because he sighed. Or something.

So we'll see.

I'm both eager for and afraid of the VP debate. Unfortunately, we already know the bar is set so low for Palin, all she has to do is not drool and the media will hail it as a HUGE COMEBACK VICTORY!!! We've already seen this game played out at the repug convention. Then again, if she's as insanely bad as she was with Katie Couric, not even the media's narrative-cheerleading will help her.

I felt that Obama more than held his own.  I wish he would not have deferred so much to McCain, but he was right on a lot of the international issues, one of the biggest being his comments on Kissenger.  For someone who has known Kissinger for 35 years, he apparently doesn't listen to him.

I think you have to look at it in terms what they needed to do. Did McCain knock Obama out? Did Obama settle concerns about his mastery of foreign policy?

I gotta disagree.

I really think Obama was much better in the second half than the first.

I actually saw the first half as more toss-up and the second half more Obama.

I think his style fits foreign policy better.  Maybe that's just because I'm more a foreign policy wonk, but that's just how I saw it.

...strongest positive emotion elicited during the debate was when Obama nailed McCain on Iraq.

I respect Gergen more than the rest of the pundits put together...IMHO, what he says is usually the most objective take.

Essentially, if this was McCain's strongest suit, then look for him to get hammered going forward.

seemed to say that Obama tied, or even won, the foreign policy portion.

It also seemed to say that McCain tied, or even won, the economy portion.

That's what the trackers seemed to show in my opinion, though others may have seen it differently.

expectations for Palin, heh heh.

So first off i admit i didnt watch.  I supported HRC and frankly i dont care to watch either of them and i am voted for BO and my personal feelings about him will remain my own and i will vote my party, period.

But based in the intrade markets McCain won this debate by a nose.  McCain picked up 3.8% and BO lost 2.2% in the intrade markets over the debate.  Now that is just people betting on the election but IMHO the markets are pretty good at making a unbiased prediction on which way the race is going.

Now i am not saying this will change the outcome in Nov i am just using the market to determine who won tonight.

david

You said:

Update [2008-9-26 23:5:26 by Todd Beeton]:But it should be noted that when John McCain acted like a dick against Romney in the primary debates, he was punished with winning the nomination.

Republicans usually like the more dickish guy. They cheer torture for gods sake. They sing about bombing countries. This isn't a Republican primary.

Update [2008-9-26 23:5:26 by Todd Beeton]:But it should be noted that when John McCain acted like a dick against Romney in the primary debates, he was punished with winning the nomination.

It was a Republican nomination contest.  Republicans like dicks (stop laughing, you know what I mean).   With the Democratic battle full tilt, I don't think there were a lot of indies voting in the GOP primaries.

If Sarah Palin didn't finally lock up the GOP base, I suppose McCain could go the asshole route to get any wingers he hasn't brought on board yet... he'll also lose by 15 pts because indies will desert him in drove.

How did McCain fail to mention that Obama's running mate, Joe Biden, and his most prominent supporter, Hillary Clinton, bashed Obama for his initial preconditions comment?  He blew a major opportunity.

McCain gave us a break with this one, the trackers seemed to like Obama's preconditions segment.  The surge and preconditions should have been McCain's trump card but Obama more than held his own.  

I'm surprised to see people claiming McCain won the economy section.  For real?  Honestly, I don't see how earmarks or any of the other crap McCain talked about connected with voters.  With Obama, I got lots of bullet points, wasn't afraid to directly lay blame, etc.  Basically, putting on my "average voter" hat I just felt Obama pressed all the right buttons during the economy section.  Your typical voter is going to be a lot more worried about their job, retirement, and financial security than they are random inside-baseball gov spending things.  Obama reassured them, and McCain didn't.

On foreign policy, as someone who agrees with Obama, I of course thought he won.  I think average voters will probably recognize McCain has "tougher" internationally but probably see Obama s smarter.  McCain failed to paint Obama as naive, but he did succeed in not painting himself as a warmonger.

CBS News and Knowledge Networks conducted a nationally representative poll of approximately 500 uncommitted voters reacting to the debate in the minutes after it happened.

These figures are still preliminary and could change as more respondents complete the survey. But here's what we have so far:

Forty percent of uncommitted voters who watched the debate tonight thought Barack Obama was the winner. Twenty-two percent thought John McCain won. Thirty-eight percent saw it as a draw.

Forty-six percent of uncommitted voters said their opinion of Obama got better tonight.

Sixty-eight percent of uncommitted voters think Obama would make the right decisions about the economy. Forty-one percent think McCain would.

Forty-nine percent of these voters think Obama would make the right decisions about Iraq. Fifty-five percent think McCain would.

We will have a full report on the poll later on. Uncommitted voters are those who don't yet know who they will vote for, or who have chosen a candidate but may still change their minds.

confidential to Barack Obama: 1) I can see letting the torture vote slide by to avoid 4 encores of "POW POW POW", but on all other issues, stop giving McCain a pass. 2) Please add at least one more hand gesture to your repertoire. The "Palin's expertise is this big" gesture is a nice alternative to the Clintonian finger-point, but it's getting really old.

Update [2008-9-26 23:5:26 by Todd Beeton]:But it should be noted that when John McCain acted like a dick against Romney in the primary debates, he was punished with winning the nomination.

Their focus group of undecided voters and "scientific" instant poll had Obama winning.

I think CBS got it right. It was a lot like Kennedy-Nixon. McCain was tense and emotional, while Obama was calm and more relaxed. On radio, McCain seemed to win, but on TV Obama seemed to win. I thought this, too. When I watched, I thought Obama was winning, but thought McCain was winning when I just listened.

couldn't look Obama in the eye.

'nuff said.

game set match

all the rest is noise.

Winning and Losing is kind of a stupid way to look at things. There is no objective set of criteria to determine victory and defeat, and they only standard politicos have is polling. If people are overwhelmingly stupid a victory is actually a defeat.

That said, everything that came out of McCain's mouth was either a lie, a mistruth, or an idiocy. This guy would be a disaster for this country, which at the moment would be business as usual. Obama is more even-handed but some of his answers indicated he will be somewhat Republican Lite on Foreign Policy(I will bomb them, but I will have great discussions about it first). His backing of missile defense is irrational, as was his description of Georgia as the victim of the South Ossetia war. But I guess you don't score any points for saying Russia was right in any context.

McCain was a grumpy old man who fervently believes his own bullshit and gets visibly angered at any challenge to it. It's hard to believe for someone who spent such a long career in the military coming from a military family that he is such an amateur when it comes to history and even military history. This guy is dumber than Bush, cause Bush I don't think ever thought he was an expert in anything other than "from the gut" thinking. John McCain lives in a country where states control the world, there are goodies and baddies, and the US kicks ass every baddie it can find. His worldview is stuck at about 60 years ago.

Obama gets double points in my book for mentioning that Ahmedinijad wasn't the most powerful person in his own country, which for some reason caused McCain to laugh. Foreign policy expert my ass.

No, not on points.  Not on anything other than he showed up and did not act weird and off his meds.  He's had such a horribly strange two weeks that I think he'll get a little bump just by passing himself off as a vaguely intelligent human being.

That said, if the bar is that low for McCain, that means he is digging himself out of a crater he himself created.

I'm concerned that McCain found his message at the end.  Obama needs to be crisper on the economy.

This was the big test for the night and Obama passed.   The truth is the points on debate really aren't going to matter.  What is going to matter tonight is style over substance.  Can people look at Obama and see him defending the country as Commander in Chief.

I think that the answer is yes.  This means that even if pundits give McCain a narrow victory in the debate that was the one he was always supposed to win anyway, it really doesn't matter.

In a change election, the swing voters who matter, determine if the change candidate looks safe enough.  I think that Obama accomplished that task just as Reagan did in 1980.  After tonight it is going to be much harder for McCain to convince those Swing voters that Obama is too dangerous for the job.

I think Obama focused way to much on the past.  Not on fixing the problems of the day, but pointing blame.  Becuase this was such a focus of most of his answers, the base will feel better, but I think he lost the middle.

He obviously lost the economy debate when he consistanly conceded his very campaign promises to the whole "cutting spending".  Under presure he caved(though he did pick it up towards the end standing for his policies).  

I think as far as camapaign strategy it is obvious the McCain camp wanted the public to see this debate.  They did everything they could to wave the stick in front of the media and keep the attention of the America public on the debate.  With the additional economy problems, I would guess the ratings will approach 90 million.

I guess we will have to see how it pans out over the next week or so.  Then the VP debate is on.

I call it a tie. But I also thought it was a great debate over all.  They were both on top of their game with their strengths on display. Obama with his cool demeanor and McCain with his personal experience with just about everything.  

However, you never know how it is going to resonate with the independents and undecideds. It looks like the focus groups favor Obama.

As for Biden v. Palin.  It is Mrs. Clueless vs. Mr. Wildcard. Who knows what Palin will draw a blank on and who knows what the hell Biden will say. Roosevelt on TV in 1929? Sheesh.  Can Biden stay on message? Has Palin heard of Fannie Mae?  Who knows? It should be a hoot!