Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Hillary Clinton does her supporters proud (and Lanny Davis couldn't be more wrong):

STATEMENT OF SENATOR HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON ON THE FISA AMENDMENTS ACT OF 2008

July 9, 2008

One of the great challenges before us as a nation is remaining steadfast in our fight against terrorism while preserving our commitment to the rule of law and individual liberty.  As a senator from New York on September 11, I understand the importance of taking any and all necessary steps to protect our nation from those who would do us harm.  I believe strongly that we must modernize our surveillance laws in order to provide intelligence professionals the tools needed to fight terrorism and make our country more secure.  However, any surveillance program must contain safeguards to protect the rights of Americans against abuse, and to preserve clear lines of oversight and accountability over this administration.  I applaud the efforts of my colleagues who negotiated this legislation, and I respect my colleagues who reached a different conclusion on today's vote.    I do so because this is a difficult issue.  Nonetheless, I could not vote for the legislation in its current form.

The legislation would overhaul the law that governs the administration's surveillance activities.  Some of the legislation's provisions place guidelines and restrictions on the operational details of the surveillance activities, others increase judicial and legislative oversight of those activities, and still others relate to immunity for telecommunications companies that participated in the administration's surveillance activities.

While this legislation does strengthen oversight of the administration's surveillance activities over previous drafts, in many respects, the oversight in the bill continues to come up short.  For instance, while the bill nominally calls for increased oversight by the FISA Court, its ability to serve as a meaningful check on the President's power is debatable.  The clearest example of this is the limited power given to the FISA Court to review the government's targeting and minimization procedures.

But the legislation has other significant shortcomings.  The legislation also makes no meaningful change to the immunity provisions.  There is little disagreement that the legislation effectively grants retroactive immunity to the telecommunications companies.  In my judgment, immunity under these circumstances has the practical effect of shutting down a critical avenue for holding the administration accountable for its conduct.  It is precisely why I have supported efforts in the Senate to strip the bill of these provisions, both today and during previous debates on this subject.  Unfortunately, these efforts have been unsuccessful.      

What is more, even as we considered this legislation, the administration refused to allow the overwhelming majority of Senators to examine the warrantless wiretapping program.  This made it exceedingly difficult for those Senators who are not on the Intelligence and Judiciary Committees to assess the need for the operational details of the legislation, and whether greater protections are necessary.  The same can be said for an assessment of the telecom immunity provisions. On an issue of such tremendous importance to our citizens - and in particular to New Yorkers - all Senators should have been entitled to receive briefings that would have enabled them to make an informed decision about the merits of this legislation.  I cannot support this legislation when we know neither the nature of the surveillance activities authorized nor the role played by telecommunications companies granted immunity.    

Congress must vigorously check and balance the president even in the face of dangerous enemies and at a time of war. That is what sets us apart. And that is what is vital to ensuring that any tool designed to protect us is used - and used within the law - for that purpose and that purpose alone.  I believe my responsibility requires that I vote against this compromise, and I will continue to pursue reforms that will improve our ability to collect intelligence in our efforts to combat terror and to oversee that authority in Congress.

Of course, Chris Dodd and Russ Fiengold are the big giants. Reid also got it right, here's the tally.

Those who voted for FISA:

Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Carper (D-DE)
Casey (D-PA)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kohl (D-WI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lieberman (ID-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
McCaskill (D-MO)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Obama (D-IL)
Pryor (D-AR)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Webb (D-VA)
Whitehouse (D-RI)


Those who voted against FISA:

Akaka (D-HI)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Cardin (D-MD)
Clinton (D-NY)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Murray (D-WA)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Tester (D-MT)
Wyden (D-OR)

Here's the cloture vote (Dogan and Biden were the only flips from voting yes to cloture and then no to FISA).

Tags: Barack Obama (all tags)

Comments

130 Comments

Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Kudos to Hillary for doing the right thing in her position, at this point in time.

by spacemanspiff 2008-07-09 12:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Sen. Clinton should replace Reid..

by nogo postal 2008-07-09 12:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

here here pericles

by Bornagaindem 2008-07-09 03:07PM | 0 recs
Even though Reid clearly sucks as leader...

...he actually voted right on this one. I'm shocked.

by demwords 2008-07-09 07:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Did she vote for cloture or not?  I've now read conflicting reports, some of which say she voted for the filibuster before then voting to end the filibuster.  Can anyone confirm what is accurate?  

If it's the latter, then I question whether voting 'no' is really that big of a deal.  Better than Obama, I'll grant you, but still nothing but symbolic.  Anyway, I'll be interested to hear more about the cloture vote.

by HSTruman 2008-07-09 12:54PM | 0 recs
She voted the right way

on both votes.

by Geekesque 2008-07-09 12:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

She voted against cloture and against the bill, thus FOR the filibuster.

by americanincanada 2008-07-09 12:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

When it doubt on votes, answers are always to be had at http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/ro ll_call_lists/vote_menu_110_2.htm

by Nathan Empsall 2008-07-09 01:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Yeah, thanks -- I should have just looked at the final vote before I posted.  Apparently she originally voted FOR cloture (and thus to end the filibuster), before casting her actual vote against cloture and to sustain the filibuster.  

by HSTruman 2008-07-09 01:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

No, she voted against CLOTURE.  Therefore voting to continue the fillibuster.

On the Cloture Motion (Motion to Invoke Cloture on H.R. 6304 )

Clinton (D-NY), Nay

Obama (D-IL), Yea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloture


In parliamentary procedure, cloture (IPA: ˈkloʊtʃɝ, KLO-cher) (also called closure, and sometimes a guillotine) is a motion or process aimed at bringing debate to a quick end.

by TxDem08 2008-07-09 01:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

We're saying the same thing.  I understand how filibusters and cloture votes work.  My confusion stemmed from reports that on the cloture vote Senator Clinton initially voted one way before changing her vote to, as you noted, support the continuation of the filibuster.  

Thanks though  

by HSTruman 2008-07-09 01:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Here is the roll-call votes menu for today.

You're looking for vote 00167.

But both voted the same on votes:00164-00166

Cloture was vote 00167, and FISA was vote 00168.

Hillary voted NAY on both 167 & 168.

by TxDem08 2008-07-09 01:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Doh!

Here's the link:
http://senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_c all_lists/vote_menu_110_2.htm

by TxDem08 2008-07-09 01:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

A respectable and rational position.

by rfahey22 2008-07-09 12:55PM | 0 recs
Good for Clinton.

She did the right thing, and that should be rewarded with appreciation.

by Geekesque 2008-07-09 12:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Huh?

You're making real Clinton supporters look bad with that rant.

Are you off your meds A&K?

by spacemanspiff 2008-07-09 12:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

The disappointing thing is that if Obama were the one making a statement against the bill, 100 times more people would hear what he had to say than will read this one from Hillary.

Obama has more of a bully pulpit than President Bush at this point in time.  It's a shame to let it go to waste.  I really hope to see him on the campaign trail being "our Reagan" and persuading people to agree with progressive positions, instead of this microtargeting centrist crap we've been getting for the last couple weeks.

In a Democratic year we should be trying to gather as much political capital as possible by campaigning strongly on the issues we believe in, not trying to sneak across the finish line with a prevent defense.  Also, we should try harder to avoid mixed metaphors.

by Steve M 2008-07-09 12:57PM | 0 recs
I want to know why she voted

Aye initially on cloture and then switched her vote to Nay.  Is it possible that Obama thought she was going to vote a certain way and then she did it another way?  That would be quite a story worth exploring by the NY Times.  Impressive power play, now she's flying with Obama to NY with C. Kennedy.

by Blazers Edge 2008-07-09 12:58PM | 0 recs
Well maybe Team Obama covering both the bases?..

The whole NY trip is interesting isn't it?

by louisprandtl 2008-07-09 01:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

she made me proud, as did the rest of Senators who voted against FISA-

by alyssa chaos 2008-07-09 12:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Yes, but she was going to bomb Iran!

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Better 1-2 than 0-2.

by Nathan Empsall 2008-07-09 01:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

That's a lie.  She was never going to bomb Iran.  

by TxDem08 2008-07-09 01:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

I was being sarcastic and repeating the naive Obama supporters who actually took her literally.

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Evantakesall denies that Obama supporters said Clinton was going to bomb Iran????

Wow.

Talk about creating reality.

Or is it just another example of pointing out the truth they don't like will not be tolerated?

No change.

by Juno 2008-07-09 02:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

And here's just another example of your attempt to sow division wherever you find it. It's not easy to be mean and dull at the same time, but these comments seem to manage it

by duende 2008-07-10 01:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

My Thanks to Senator Clinton.  She did exactly the right thing here.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 01:03PM | 0 recs
Sounds like Davis

actually read the bill.  I wish I could say the same for many of the screaming outraged.

The only thing wrong in that Davis piece is the characterization of the never-was Sista Soulja as a "rap star".

by JJE 2008-07-09 01:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Kudos to Clinton, and I am disappointed in both Biden and Dorgan. They remain among my favorite Senators, especially Biden, but I can't comprehend why they would flip on this. At least they voted against the actual bill.

by Nathan Empsall 2008-07-09 01:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Is it too late for the superdelegates to come to their senses and nominate the right person for the job?

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

You mean Dodd or Biden? ;)

by Nathan Empsall 2008-07-09 01:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

I don't see why there is a wink.

I would be delighted if they nominated Dodd who we can all admit hold the most progressive principles.

I think it's time we try and draft Feingold or Dodd to replace Reid.

They are our strongest and most respected Senators.

by DemsLandslide2008 2008-07-09 01:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Dodd would be cool.

Biden lost me when he torpedoed Anita Hill and ensured Thomas's being seated on the SC during the Clarence Thomas hearings.

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Sorry, no sale.  If today's votes proved anything, it's that Obama is undoubtedly the nominee.  But thanks for your concern!

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 01:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

I'm very concerned.

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Indeed, I am too, but not about the primary, which is over.

The whole FISA situation is a mess.  Obama was wrong to do what he did.  But it won't keep him from being the nominee.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 01:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

I was making a rhetorical point.

Bush won too.  He shouldn't have.  But you seem to think people should not say, "WE got the wrong guy" the second he won.

I disagree.

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

You;re free to disagree with me.  But your comparisons of Obama to Bush are growing tiresome.  Obama has no control over the action of his sometimes overzealous interet supporters, just as Clinton can't control the insane PUMA crowd.  Quit projecting.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 01:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Um, I was comparing the behavior of some posters here to how it's been under Bush.

I do not compare Obama to Bush at all.

Another Bush culture thing: twisting and distorting what people say.

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

btw, the likenesses to Bush are growing worrisome!

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

"I do not compare Obama to Bush at all."

"btw, the likenesses to Bush are growing worrisome!"

How cute.  At least it wasn't one of your endless copy+paste "is this that message of change that we keep hearing about?" posts.

by thatpurplestuff 2008-07-09 01:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Good grief, can anyone read here???

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

So, another Obama supporter who NOW thinks his central point of his candidacy, change, should not be discussed.

Curious.

How interesting that his own supporters seem to not have taken his rhetoric about change and hope and inspiration seriously!

But then, that would explain a lot of their behavior.

And btw, another trait of Bush culture is to willfully dismiss nuance and intellectual honesty in what people say EXCEPT WHEN IT COMES TO IN THIS CASE OBAMA, IN BUSH'S CASE, BUSH.

Yes, I see a lot of disturbing similarities.  

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

No.  Here, let me illustrate an example of what I am talking about, because you seem to be playing dense.  You make an inflammatory comment in a diary, someone responds in kind, and you then use one of the following response templates:

A) Is this an example of all that "hope" and "change" we keep hearing about?
B) Obama supporters sound like just Republicans.
C) Oh so now I can't have a different opinion of you?  How Bushlike!

Later, rinse, repeat.

by thatpurplestuff 2008-07-09 02:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

What in any of those examples is untrue?

by Juno 2008-07-09 02:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Dear lord, I think Juno's gone off the rails.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 01:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Just like the Bushies?

by spacemanspiff 2008-07-09 01:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Hey your dead on with that, considering that SD's are supposed to represent party leadership it would be a safe bet that since over 50% of congressional Democrats caved into Bush simply because they are too afraid to admit that he violated the 4th amendment.

As far as I am concerned I blame the whole congress, If they really thought the constitution is something we hold sacred they would have resigned before sitting a legislature that is killing the 4th amendment, as they would in most countries.

by DemsLandslide2008 2008-07-09 01:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Why do you hate Obama so much?

I'd love to know what the mind of a lunatic fringe zealot is like.

by spacemanspiff 2008-07-09 01:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Again SpanishFly hits the zero rating when it isn't warranted.

I wonder, if Obama becomes president, will criticism of him maybe be outlawed?

Makes you wonder what people like this hated about Bush so much!

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

No, his comment was quite trollish, as he's only here to disrupt.  If you don't like the rating, uprate it.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 01:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

I have to counter the irresponsible behavior of those supposedly inspired to a higher and less divisive politic for hide rating someone who didn't break one rule in his post???

Now that really is pathetic.  How about respecting people's right to say things you might disagree with?

Hmmmm?

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Eh, I respect you're right to disagree.  But if you can;t see that the poster is a troll, well, I don't know what to say.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 01:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

the poster is not a troll because you say so.

The poster expressed an opinion you didn't like.

Last I heard, that was allowed in this country.

And I'm not a troll, but Spanishfly zero-rated my post too.

Honestly, I'd really hoped we were getting beyond the "I did it because I could" thing,and you'd think it'd be Obama supporters leading the way.

But no.

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Well, I don't know what to tell you, but coming to a blog that suppports democrats and crapping all over the nomniee and telling us that we're going to loose is pretty trollish to me.  He has nothing constuctive to add.

Bottom line - no one cares, in large part because you post the same points every time.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 01:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Then ignore the posts.

And to think I had a debate here this morning with someone who insisted that critics of Obama are tolerated and treated with respect.

Sigh.

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Critics of Obama are one thing.  You're defending a poster that said we'd be better off with McCain beating Obama in November.  

All you do here is complain about people being mean and trying to silence you while making snotty remarks about hope and change.  It's fairly obvious to most people the reason you frequent this site.

by thatpurplestuff 2008-07-09 01:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

So now it's snotty to hold Obama and his supporters to what they trumpeted throughout the primary as being the reason he should be the nominee?????

Wow.

And yes, I think people have a right to say McCain is the better person for the job. I disagree, but they have a right to say it.

Man, we really need to reintroduce civics to our school systems!

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:54PM | 0 recs
Just to be clear

You think it's okay for people to advocate for McCain on a Democrat suppoting, progressive blog?  Because 99% of us here don't, and we don't want to have to waste time convincing every new poster and troll why we like Obama and do not like McCain.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 02:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Just to be clear

I think it's okay for anyone to say anything they want so long as it isn't vulgar or threatening antoher person.

I think I should have a right to go on Red State and say I don't like Bush and why too.

I guess I'm just a freak, thinking people should be allowed to express themselves and that blogs should not be restricted to singing to the choir.

Perhaps you too think loyalty oaths are in order???

by Juno 2008-07-09 02:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Just to be clear

Okay, so you think it's oaky to advocate for McCain at MyDD.  Good to know.  The directors of this particular blog said that such statements wouldn't be tolerated.  It's their blog, they can set any policy that they want to, even if they enforce it spottily.

Try to go to Redstate and advocate for Obama.  Heel, go to NoQuarter and try it.  You be banned in about 5 seconds.  At least here, you get a few chances.

Loyal Oaths.  Hilarious.  This is a fucking blog, not real life.  Unless this is your life, in which case I apoligize.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 02:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Just to be clear

Um you're the ones saying only those loyal to Barack Obama should be allowed to post here, not I.

I don't happen to believe hearing only what you want to hear is useful.

Your position does emulate the whole loyalty oath thing. REmember when y'all were against that?

I guess that counts for change.

by Juno 2008-07-09 02:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Notice how the person who made the offending remarks isn't even discussing them in this thread?  It's almost like their purpose was to come into a diary, take a steaming dump in the comments about McCain being a better option than Obama, and then leave.  Almost sounds... I dunno... trollish?

I give up.  Your sole purpose here is to argue and bitch about freedom of speech, while at the same time not saying anything worth responding to.

Oh, and just to save you some time: My post was very Bushlike, was not representative of hope and change, and I'm obviously just trying to silence you because you have a different opinion.

by thatpurplestuff 2008-07-09 02:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

I didn't accuse you of trying to silence anyone. I accused those wrongly hitting the zero rating keys to do so, which is what that is.

And yes, I find it interesting that Obama supporters now don't want the whole change/hope/inspiration thing brought up, or at least to be called on their inability to adopt the very thing they trumpeted.

Sorry, Obama ran on it.  It's a fair topic, seems to me.

by Juno 2008-07-09 02:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Ah, yes, an Obaman goes for the hide button simply because he/she doesn't like a poster or what they've said, when the post doesn't break any of the rules.

What a shocker.

Is this what we can expect from an Obama presidency too?  It's what we got from Bush. Don't like what people say? Shut them up!

Pathetic. Esp. for people who say they want change.

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

LOL!  Enjoy your day in the sunshine.  

by SpanishFly 2008-07-09 01:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Exactly the sort of response a Republican would give.

Hey!  Why don't you call me "Sore/Loserman" while you're at it!  and then tell me how you totally agree that telecom companies should be free to spy on Americans with impunity!

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

You really seem to be doing just fine all by yourself.  I don't waste my time fighting with folks here.  I make my point and move on.  Some (not naming names now...  LOL!) seems to just keep on saying the same thing over and over, in every thread, almost like hateful little robots.

Enjoy your day in the sunshine.  

by SpanishFly 2008-07-09 01:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

See, the difference between you and me is that I really do believe you have a right to be smug and obnoxious and say what you want.

You think people with whom you disagree should be shut up.

Seems I'm more inspired by Obama and really do want to end Bush culture than you.

More irony. I love it.

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Sun, sun, sun...

Here it comes....

by SpanishFly 2008-07-09 01:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Not going to zero rate you.

You have a right to say what you want, no matter how  juvenile.

Post away, while attempting to quash others.

A citizen Bush would be proud of!

by Juno 2008-07-09 01:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement
Little darlin'
It's been a long cold lonely winter...
by SpanishFly 2008-07-10 10:02AM | 0 recs
Hope? Change? Anonynous commenters on blogs?

One note Juno strikes again!

Seriously, can you do anything but compare Obama with Bush?

by spacemanspiff 2008-07-09 01:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Hope? Change? Anonynous commenters on blogs?

A&K and yet another sockpuppet strike again.

by spacemanspiff 2008-07-09 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Juno, whycome do you blame Obama for his anonymous internet supporters?  I've never hide or troll rated you, and many other Obama supporters haven't either.  Seems like you've got a bit of a persecution complex.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 01:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Where do you see me blame Obama????

Really, learn to read. Or at least employ some intellectual honesty.

by Juno 2008-07-09 02:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

I really don't care what you have to say anymore.  But feel free to keep posting.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 02:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Can't answer, huh?

Very dishonest to make a claim and not back it up but to run off instead.

by Juno 2008-07-09 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Logic isn't your strong suit.  Let me grab a great quote from this thread to spell it out for you.

"Again SpanishFly hits the zero rating when it isn't warranted.

I wonder, if Obama becomes president, will criticism of him maybe be outlawed?"

You see a perceived slight by some random person on the internet, and your next thought is that somehow Obama is going to outlaw criticism of himself when he becomes president... unless of course you think SpanishFly is going to somehow control the government.  You're either being incredibly intellectually dishonest or you're simply beyond rational thinking at this point.  Maybe both?

by thatpurplestuff 2008-07-09 02:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Well, first of all, I have a degree, with honors, in philosophy, so my professors at least thought I had some modicum of logic ability.

But that's not important.

You mistake my calling SpanishFly out as having taken her zero rating me (and another person???) personally.

I don't.  

I'm addressing the principle of doing something one has the ability to do but does so with disregard for the rules but only to show express through the only means they have that they don't like an individual.

The rules specifically state that Candidates are fair game.  IT's very clear.

I have never zero rated anyone, btw.

So it wasn't about her zero rating ME, it was about the basis on which she decided to zero rate anyone.

See? I"d think an Obama supporter would understand the principle here.

And I never said Obama would make free speech illegal. Once again, we see people making stuff up that was never said in a willful attempt to distort and attack.

If you're going to ascribe all kinds of nuance to what Obama says, you ought to do so for everyone in an honest attempt to understand what they're saying.

Things would improve mightily in this country if people would start doing so.  So again, no change.

by Juno 2008-07-09 02:59PM | 0 recs
No change

No. You. Say. This. Every. Time. No. Change.

Yawn. Reboot your software.

by duende 2008-07-10 01:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Um, the president doesn't make laws. Congress does.

K?

I'm just wondering if his followers will lobby to make criticism of him illegal.  Bushies sure seemed to try.

by Juno 2008-07-09 03:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Nope, the convention is in August.  

by TxDem08 2008-07-09 01:29PM | 0 recs
Haters back

Glad to see the GOP Trolls are back online

by monkeyga 2008-07-09 01:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Haters back

Well, this diary was troll bait.  Brings 'em out into the sunshine for all to see.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 01:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Haters back

BlueDoggyDog, why the TR?

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 02:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Haters back

this is funny, as is the next post.

Just this morning, an Obama supporter was insisting we are wrong when we say any perceived criticism or dissent from obama is met with accusations of being trolls and other namecalling!

I've yet to not see that be the response, and this is even in response to a post clearly suggesting Clinton, a Democrat, should have been the nominee!

Wow.  

by Juno 2008-07-09 02:27PM | 0 recs
Seriously... Who cares?

She had nothing to lose with this vote.  Nothing to gain, either.  She knew the result of the final vote before she voted so...  This is meaningless.

But good to see Jerome come out of hiding to blow the Hillary Horn again.  Nothing like giving the trolls and PUMA folks yet another front page forum to rip on the Democratic nominee.

by SpanishFly 2008-07-09 01:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Seriously... Who cares?

You're a PUMA.  I think PUMA are scum.

by SpanishFly 2008-07-09 01:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Seriously... Who cares?

Nothing to lose?  The same as Obama then right?  

by TxDem08 2008-07-09 01:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Seriously... Who cares?

No.

by SpanishFly 2008-07-09 01:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

I'm having a drink to all the Dems that think our Constitution is a bargaining chip to compromise on.  Here's to their spineless stand on protecting our rights.  Thanks Obama for being so couragous when it comes to defending the Constitution.  The Telecoms all thank you too Obama for protecting their interests in all this and now it's on to Denver!  

by orionwest 2008-07-09 01:20PM | 0 recs
Why, why WHY

does my senior senator feel like he has to vote this way, when my junior senator is leading the battle?

Kohl breezed to reelection in 06 - the state republican party wouldn't even support their candidate, resulting in him (David Redick) switching to the Libertarian party.

Feingold leads, Kohl plays DINO.

sigh

by aggieric 2008-07-09 01:21PM | 0 recs
After that infamous vote, Clinton definitely

got this vote right. I was not happy when she skipped the last vote, nor with her Iraq vote.

Obama did vote to strip the telecom immunity, so let's give him a pass on the final vote and not hound him. I'm willing to give our nominee a wide berth now..atleast he can walked halfway to meet us on the FISA issue.

by louisprandtl 2008-07-09 01:28PM | 0 recs
Sorry I was very inarticulate...I meant

infamous Iraq vote..and Obama walked halfway to meet us..

by louisprandtl 2008-07-09 01:33PM | 0 recs
Re: After that infamous vote, Clinton definitely

I don't agree.  If he could vote for the Dodd ammendment as well as the Specter ammendment, which would have stripped telecom immunity until AFTER a Justice Department investigation (which would occur under Obama), he could have voted against this FISA bill.

I can't give him a pass on that, and I won't stop hounding him on how wrong he was, when he could have drafted another version, led the Senate and forced a compromise or even forced the issue to be tabled (sent back to committee) and therefore at least took a stand.

He did not walk half-way on the FISA issue, he forced you to walk half-way to him.

by TxDem08 2008-07-09 01:35PM | 0 recs
Look I'm disappointed in his full vote but

I was happy that atleast he voted to strip the telecom immunity. He already made his point clear that he was supporting the modification of FISA bill. I was just trying to give him some space for maneuver for GE. Yes I would have been happier if he voted for the Dodd and Specter amendment..

However in the spirit of Unity and support for our nominee, I thought beating him on this issue too much maybe counter-productive. But yes, when he is elected, he will hear loud and clear on his subject again from us!!
 

by louisprandtl 2008-07-09 01:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Look I'm disappointed in his full vote but

Yes sure he will!!!

by ottovbvs 2008-07-09 02:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Look I'm disappointed in his full vote but

fair enough.

by TxDem08 2008-07-09 02:41PM | 0 recs
Re: After that infamous vote, Clinton definitely

How do you know Obama wouldn't have voted for the war resolution if he was in the senate or in a position to vote ?

Its a moot and hypothetical situation but if you look at it in light of his recent moves , I would say he would probably have voted the same way as Clinton especially if he had been planning on running for president.

If he couldn't vote against this bill , I don't imagine he would have voted against the war resolution.

by lori 2008-07-09 02:12PM | 0 recs
Actually it is in records he came out

against the War before the Senate vote. I did some searching on that sometime last April.

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2008/4/ 5/221841/6412/317#c317

However in 2004 he did say he didn't know what he would have done if he was in Senate..

But now I think this is history and I don't want to relive the primary wars. If you're interested checkout the messages above that link and you'll find more discussions on the same topic.

by louisprandtl 2008-07-09 02:22PM | 0 recs
by louisprandtl 2008-07-09 02:24PM | 0 recs
By the same token...

How can YOU say that Clinton wouldn't have voted for FISA if she were the nominee?  Or that Obama wouldn't have voted for it if he weren't?  These are both more likely hypotheticals than the one you posed (but which is not out of the realm of possibility...i grant you that).  

It makes sense what Obama is doing given the Republican Sound Machine and its success rate over the last 20 years...get into the presidency with an overwhelming majority in Congress and then hopefully push some stuff through.  Remember Bush claimed to be a compassionate conservative/centrist.  There's a long history of people campaigning one way and then governing another.  I'm not sure that it's the correct tactical move this time...still suspect that part of why we've fallen in the past is the failure to stick to our principles, but it is what it is.

Hooray for Clinton for standing up for what's right.  It's a shame Obama didn't.  I'm not going to lie...it knocks him down a notch in my esteem (for whatever that's worth).  However, I'm still proud to have him as our nominee.

by thurst 2008-07-10 05:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Is Lanny Davis "wrong"?  It seems to me that his piece is a political argument aimed at the very audience that Obama was hoping to appeal to with this vote.  Davis is standing up and saying "hey look, Fox News fans, Obama has the backbone to stand up to the ultra-liberals!"  Now, it may be a little galling for me to hear that argument, but I'm obviously not the target audience.

by Steve M 2008-07-09 01:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Politicians are so... frustrating.  There's one good person in the Senate, and his name is Russ Feingold.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 01:43PM | 0 recs
I get where you're coming from...

But I think it's safe to say Bernie Sanders is one of the good ones as well (and there's many others)...

by thurst 2008-07-10 05:59AM | 0 recs
Re: I get where you're coming from...

You are correct - I had forgetten about him.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-10 08:43AM | 0 recs
A dark day for "democracy"

Two nominees not worthy of leading America.

I was just over at our regional progressive blog, and there is much handwringing by progressive stalwarts.

I am just disgusted.

by strongerthandirt 2008-07-09 01:36PM | 0 recs
Re: A dark day for "democracy"

Well we knew this going in.

Funny how the rational was "Hillary and Barack have the same experience, and have never fought the republicans"

We knew these facts clear and well, but you had 'personality' voters.  

What I dont understand is why why why are the Democrats so AFRAID of the Republicans?

Why is almost our whole party willing to put winning a future election, no matter how distant over principle.

How can you call yourself a Patriot and allow the constitution to get torn apart under YOUR watch.

by DemsLandslide2008 2008-07-09 01:49PM | 0 recs
Aliveandkickin at it again.

Hey troll, love how you t'rated hundreds of my older comments.

Don't you have a life outside of this blog?

If folks could spare the mojo, please uprate my past comments please. (lost my TU status)

Something should be done about this tool soon.

by spacemanspiff 2008-07-09 01:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Aliveandkickin at it again.

What's the troll's name?

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 01:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Aliveandkickin at it again.

aliveandkickin going by roxfoxy (see diaries) most of the time now.

Sometimes comments with other handles.

T'rated me to death with "lara in italy".

by spacemanspiff 2008-07-09 02:04PM | 0 recs
I've uprated some of your comments..

hopefully you'll get your TU status. I'm not sure why I couldn't see who troll-rated you. Is he is still around?

by louisprandtl 2008-07-09 02:06PM | 0 recs
Re: I've uprated some of your comments..

Thanks louis! Nice to bump into you.

I got my TU status back. Thank you all who helped!

I complained to Jonathan in his front page post (hated to do that but the Contact Us option is not really an option).

The person might have gotten banned.

Thank you all anyways.

by spacemanspiff 2008-07-09 02:18PM | 0 recs
I don't like Troll rate abuse..nice seeing

you again. I'm very glad you got your TU back. I agree the person might have gotten kicked off for troll rate abuse.

However you're being little too harsh on Juno though.....take care..

by louisprandtl 2008-07-09 02:32PM | 0 recs
Re: I don't like Troll rate abuse..nice seeing

I could be but again, all that person does is spam the same 3 things over and over again. It throws diaries off track left and right (see this thread for example) and it is pretty annoying. Hijacking diaries everyday, all day .I don't t'rate her but I throw the same spam right back. I'll ignore this person per your recommendation.

See ya around!

by spacemanspiff 2008-07-09 02:44PM | 0 recs
I don't like diary hijacking ...it had happened to

me also. They tend to personally insult you till you decide to walk away. They have no interest in having a civil discussion. Believe me, I share your sentiment fully here.

I say: Ignore the diary spammer/hijackers.

by louisprandtl 2008-07-09 02:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Aliveandkickin at it again.

I'll help where I can.  Amazing that that troll is still around.  Blah.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-07-09 02:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Aliveandkickin at it again.

It was his sockpuppet (another one) who did it. I think the administrators banned the account and negated the T'rate.

I've got my TU back (but A&K) is still using sockpuppets to t'rate me. (see post above).

by spacemanspiff 2008-07-09 02:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Aliveandkickin at it again.

Another sockpuppet?

What a joke. MyDD needs IP adress banning.

Looks like this is going to be an everyday thing now.

Stalk the spaceman A&K! You know you love me troll!

by spacemanspiff 2008-07-09 02:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Obama rolled on this! No getting around it. Clinton didn't.

by ottovbvs 2008-07-09 02:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

Both Clinton and Obama were voting what they believed here, as you can see from their records.

People who think this was some kind of strategy or power play by Clinton either think her Iraq AUMF vote is the whole of her record or can only think of her as Bill's wife. She is a consistently liberal Senator, especially on critical votes like FISA, as a quick check of Progressive Punch shows. She is not the most liberal Senator, nor is she some profile in courage, but she is a reliable, liberal vote in the Senate.

By the same token this vote is Obama being Obama. He really does listen to both sides of an issue and he tries to find common ground between them. He is somewhat deferential to presidential power and he understands the concerns of businesses. It is not hard to take him at his word on this vote, though I disagree with him.

by souvarine 2008-07-09 02:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

In other words Obama is a DINO- just what we need in the white house.

That was my big reason for not supporting him in the primary. He always blamed the dems equally for the gridlock. Complete crap. Repugs are willing to do anything to get their way and dems always cave. What I don't want is a pres who right up front makes it clear I'm gonna cave on everything. THAT will be very productive for dems.

Except Obama won't win in November so not to worry.

by Bornagaindem 2008-07-09 03:21PM | 0 recs
Brava Clinton!

I think the primaries made her a more progressive politician.

We may have lost the chance to celebrate the first woman president (for now), but we gained a growing progressive ally.

BRAVA HILLARY CLINTON.

by Sieglinde 2008-07-09 02:08PM | 0 recs
Why just Clinton?

Jerome, why do you come out periodically to replay the primary battles? I know it might have been financially beneficial to this site, but FISA and the evisceration of the 4th amendment is a lot more important issue than petty politics.

Today, I am proud of one of my Senators. Yep, I am from Illinois and his name is Dick Durbin. I really wish that Durbin or Feingold would've been the nominee but Obama IS the nominee. There's not much crying over that now.

Obama made the right gestures but the wrong call. I don't think that much can be done in the current atmosphere of Washington politics, but this is one crummy bill. It's written badly and presents bad legal remedies for telecom lawsuits. Remember, telecom immunity is all about covering the asses of the White House and Congress and they have come together brilliantly to agree on a bill that makes sure they will never be caught in their illegalities again. At least they still feared something before this bill passed. Now they fear nothing and onto Iran.

I don't really care about how you feel about Obama or Clinton or anyone else, but the passage of this bill with the connivance of the Democratic Congress should give you giant warning signs about the future agenda of the party. The Republicans are going to get their asses kicked in the fall, but if this is what Democratic leadership looks like then the Republicans will be back in power with all their awful ideas and awful cronies in no time. And that is neither sustainable or survivable.  

by wengler 2008-07-09 02:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Why just Clinton?

"connivance of the Democratic Congress?" Most Democrats voted against the bill.

by souvarine 2008-07-09 02:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Why just Clinton?

Not in the House. And the Senate leadership has been disingenuous on this issue from the day that Reid introduced the Rockefeller Intel Committee bill with immunity over the Leahy Judiciary Committee bill without.

It appears many Democratic politicians are still dismissive of their core supporters and would rather appeal to Republican-leaning voters. There is nothing new here, I have heard nothing but scorn from some major Democratic leaders for their supporters. Merely one of the reasons why they need to be replaced.

by wengler 2008-07-09 09:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

I am eating crow.

Right now.

Nom, nom nom nom.

by abraxas 2008-07-09 03:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton votes no on FISA: Statement

"Reid also got it right"

oh please. This whole thing is reid's fault by bringing the wrong bill out of Judiciary originally and shutting down Democrat Dodd against Senate tradition.

by gak 2008-07-09 03:56PM | 0 recs
I am so proud of hillary

if i didnt max out i would donate whatever i could!

by sepulvedaj3 2008-07-09 04:37PM | 0 recs

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