Open Thread
by Todd Beeton, Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:43:09 PM EDT
Discuss...
Tags: Open Thread (all tags)
Comments
You've got some Fair Use issues
Unless someone wants to explain that copying about 80% of an article verbatim is not an issue in this diary
Re: You've got some Fair Use issues
funny how it just happens to be a diary that does not fit your world-view that raises your ire. tsk tsk tsk
Don't put thoughts into my head
Point me to another and I will rail against it. Fair Use violations harm the entire blogosphere, not to mention they could cause monetary issues for the site owners.
Re: Don't put thoughts into my head
Fair Use violations [...] could cause monetary issues for the site owners.In the United States, a web site is generally immune from prosecution resulting from the illegal actions of its users. This protection comes from two laws:
1. For illegal actions in general, section 230 of the otherwise defunct Communications Decency Act, which states that "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.".
2. For violations specific to copyright law, Title II of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, AKA the "Safe Harbor" provision, officially the Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act. This is the law that provides for the "DMCA takedown notices" you may have heard about, which are the reason videos get taken down on youtube and other sites. A copyright holder has to send a notice to youtube stating under penalty of perjury that they represent the copyright holder and they believe in good faith that the video infringes on their copyright. As long as youtube follows these provisions to the letter, they're not committing any crimes when someone uploads for example the latest Britney Spears video onto their servers and millions view it, just as Jerome isn't responsible when a user quotes too liberally from a copyrighted article.
This law is absolutely vital to the freedom of the internet, and no website with any user participation whatever could safely exist in its absence. Without it, your ISP would be prudent to monitor your internet use to make sure you're not downloading bomb plans or child pornography, for fear of being held liable themselves. The crazy and awesome thing is, the safe harbor provisions flip that situation and say, roughly, that if you do monitor user's activity you suddenly become a lot more liable for their illegal actions.
This is because some of the requirements to obtain safe harbor is that the provider must
* not have actual knowledge that the material or an activity using the material on the system or network is infringing (512(c)(1)(A)(1)).
* not be aware of facts or circumstances from which infringing activity is apparent (512(c)(1)(A)(2)).
* upon obtaining such knowledge or awareness, must act expeditiously to remove, or disable access to, the material. (512(c)(1)(A)(2) and 512(c)(1)(C))
So if the prosecution is able to point to more than a handful of situations where a site operator personally intervened in user participation, or just to give an example, censored user content that was clearly non-infringing in order to promote his own political views, it would be much harder to argue that the operator was unaware of copyright infringement. In general it's a bad idea for the owner of a site with a lot of user activity to personally interact much as a user, because if he becomes aware of copyrighted material he has to remove it, and even if he doesn't notice it, the prosecution can argue that he should have since he regularly used the site. By leaving the users completely to themselves and only removing content when a DMCA notice is received, site owners are far safer from a legal standpoint. This is why user moderation is so key to a good site nowadays. Every user-based site badly needs moderation, but if the owners provide it themselves it must be perfect or their liability is potentially huge.
None of this is to say that I think MyDD is at any risk of being sued for copyrighted material, as liberal quoting on is not exactly the biggest concern for rights holders these days and besides, they tend to behave as if any site owner is subject to safe harbor even if it arguably isn't. Sending a takedown notice is much cheaper than filing a lawsuit, and usually just as effective.
and
I'd also like to point out that there's no such thing per se as a "fair use violation". Fair use is an affirmative defense which consists of a set of flexible guidelines which a judge uses to decide on a case-by case basis. There's no definition like there is with most law, so it's up to the judge's interpretation. The guidelines make a wide berth for use that's educational, non-profit, or for the purposes of commentary. You might argue that the ads on the site invalidate the non-profit nature of such a post, but see above for an explanation on why it's the user who is liable for the contents of the post. The user made no money from posting (paid blogger accusations aside).
I did a word count on the article you referenced. I'm not a lawyer, but it's a short article at 785 words. The user posted 552 words of it, or 70%. Considering that it's clearly for the purposes of commentary and not for profit, based on examples I've heard of cases involving fair use, this would likely qualify. Quoting 70% of the Encyclopedia Britannica would not be ok. Quoting 70% of a short article is probably fine, as long as you're not making money from it. Courts have decided for schools and students which were quoting 100% for educational purposes.
Sorry for the long winded posts. I wrote the first one last night, then when I tried to post it, the server was down!
I may see Howey Dean tomorrow
He's speaking at my NH Democratic State Convention.
If I have the chance I want to ask him...
I was a Deaniac in 2004. A picture of you with my wife and daughter is on my refrigerator.
How can you allow the press to do to Hillary what they did to you? Whether you favor her candidacy or not, you of all people, should be disgusted with the treatment.
Howie controls the media
No DNC chairman controls the media. I wish he did, then I could spend my time bloggin about the Yankees.
Most DNC chairmen..
...don't even get much facetime in the media.
I don't think I even saw Terry Mac's face until after his ouster.
Arguably Dean gets more press because he's Dean, but even so being chairman isn't all it's cracked up to be.
It's all about party and not about policy and so many people want Dean to rail on policy so bad it stings. But he can't. He has a party to build and by all accounts he's done a great job of it.
Go Dean!
Re: I may see Howey Dean tomorrow
How can you allow the press to do to Hillary what they did to you? Whether you favor her candidacy or not, you of all people, should be disgusted with the treatment.
You mean prolong her candidacy months after it was realistically over?
I wish they gave Howard Dean the same red carpet treatment they gave Hillary to extend his primary.
Re: Open Thread
Todd, what's up with two diaries defending Bush today? Are they not getting reported?
Today feels like the first day of the General Elec
One sure sign, Hillary has disappeared completely from the D-Kos Rec list.
Todd; a question about process, please..
Late last night I was reading a diary in which a poster was asking questions about why so many people left the large orange and I found myself writing a long answer, so I expanded it and spent the rest of the night getting it into the diary format and posting it. It created a modest discussion which I appreciated. Never would have been that give and take on the large orange;it would have just been bombed and swamped. That was the point of coming here.
I just looked back over some other diaries I had been reading and commenting on today. Usually my comments get no rating or a 2 or a couple of 2s and none or a couple of replies. Nothing much. Suddenly today I found that my comments on other diaries had been troll rated 12 times and hidden once. Once comment got 2 2s, 2 1s and a zero. jess81 trolled me 4 times, deano963 3 times, bottl4 twice and once each from spacemanspiff, auronrenouille and willis reed. Don't know who the zero is from.
I make mistakes, of course, but I try for discourse and try not to be snippy or rude or profane, and I ,like many others here, have made an effort to raise issues and subjects that I think the party needs to be ready to deal with and tried to encourage us to be less pushing at each other and going for the snippy retort and more digging up and sharing research, and trying to encourage accuracy in the media and sharing with each other about those efforts and offering support to candidates all the way down ticket.
I noticed in several diaries that people who still make positive comments about Hillary or try to discuss negative aspects of Obama's candidacy and what might be done about it now and in the general, are subject to a lot of accusations of being Republican trolls and down rating. Disagreeing and arguing are how we learn and refine our understanding and action, but I'm not talking about discourse or frank discussion of problems that need solving. I mean dismissal and the absence of discourse. Sniping, jabbing and breaking up the discussion.
We used to see a whole lot of that at the orange and it got really worse. My question is what is the expectation of the owners here about interacting with and rating? And how are people who receive or give a lot of troll ratings effected in their standing with the site? Some of the posters are promising that all the dems who want to stay with Hillary till there is a vote or someone concedes will be purged here. And that people who find that they can't work for Senator Obama, and there are a lot of them here, but would like to work down ticket very hard to get the best and biggest majority in the state and federal legislatures against the feeling that McCain may win and we would be working through the Congress and State Houses to get progressive values expressed into policy and law. Some here think that the Senate is the best protection against bad Supreme Court choices, if we can get Senators to vote for fair judges instead of folding to the Pres. Also a strong Congress (can't believe put those words together)feeling some progressive heat might be a lot of help to shore up an inexperienced president.
So are members of mydd welcome to stay here if they are not yet or ever enthusiastic about Senator Obama but very enthusiastic about working for progressive government, downticket races and active encouragement of the Congress and media to forward progressive values?
Re: Todd; a question about process, please..
I barely troll rate. If I did. You deserved it.
Re: I question that
Have you seen the quality of the diaries today?
Between yesterday and today the diaries have bordered on the paranoid and ludicrous. The comments have been hateful and racist. The trolls around here have been launching smear after smear.
I've seen you rec the most pathetic of the smear jobs.
funny
you've got a pot-kettle problem as well as living in a glass house. Have you ever taken the time to see what kind of hateful comments you make? You love a fight, I can tell that.
Re: funny
Yeah I did...and I actually wrote a diary about it today and apologized and thanked Hillary...
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/16/1819 29/735#commenttop
Check it out....
Withering criticism
I have found that at certain times of the day that the number of provoking, angry, insulting comments, and the "ganging up on" and trollrating or hiding comments made by HRC supporters is really withering. I am beginning to avoid mydd during these hours.
the nature of the criticisms, jokes, and snarky comments is deeply distressing. No HRC supporter can put anything up on this site without the merciless troll rating and arguments.
I feel now like I felt about dkos, and I see a lot of dkossacks over here. I left kos before others did, and now I am distressed to see the same behavior here. Thoughtful well reasoned diaries are hijacked or the diarist insulted.
Thanks for listening.
Re: Withering criticism
2 pro George Bush diaries.
1 diary accusing Obama supporters on this site of being paid bloggers without any evidence to back it up.
At least 3 or 4 diaries trashing Obama with right wing talking points and most of you following their lead in desesperation.
2 G.O.P. moles posting diaries. Chitown Denny and Michael Begala.
The comments on most diaries? Ridiculous. Take a look and compare the Obama supporters and the Hillary supporters.
For the most part we have moved on yet the insults have only intensified from Hillaryland. Take a stroll through the diaries and stop complaining and playing the victim.
The evidence speaks for itself.
this is the kind of comment
that ruins your credibilty. You have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about.
stop complaining and playing the victim.
I don't play the victim game.
This is the kind of ridicule and unnecessary comments I'm talking about. You have proved my point in every comment you've made on this post.
Re: this is the kind of comment
You would love to think that.
You are playing the victim card. You've done it at least twice in this open thread alone. I would love to stay and chat but you are not a Hillary suppoter I particulary admire.
It would be fun if we could post my comments and your comments side by side. It would be fun if we could put my T'rats and your T'rates side by side. It would be fun to compare mojo as well.
You will not twist words to your liking or try to. This is not a game and if it was I would not play it with you. I have no clue why I even engaged in this conversation with you.
This passive agressive nonsense on your part is painfully obvious to everybody even if you don't think it is. Nobody is falling for your "victim" role playing game. Because you have a serious credibility problem, as in, you don't have any.
Stop following me around. Please?
Here are some examples
A diary discussing the media and Obama ignoring Clinton's WV win and its implications. I have removed the names of posters:
Response:
Bug off (2.00 / 1)Too many attacks to take on one at a time. Just take this whole shtick somewhere else.
Here's another one:
Re: Bug off (2.00 / 1)Your entire diary is nothing more than opinion backed up without a single fact or source. For the kind of stuff you're spouting, that's past irresponsible and into either trolling or a compulsive need for the soapbox to put said opinions on a public pedestal.
Here's another, after the diarist tried to satisfy questioners with information:
Re: Bug off (1.50 / 2)
Oh, that's hilarious. Keep it coming. Its just not worth linking to your sources? You don't even care enough about what you're talking about to "appease" people with some sort of proof you're not a ranting troll? You don't even care about the veneer of accuracy or logic, this diary is an excuse to fight and you just admitted it.
can't rec, can't rate, par for the course
And here is the diarist's exasperated statement after being troll rated and ridiculed:
[new] Re: Bug off (none / 0)
I have lost faith that I will EVER be able to convince ignorant and anctimonious people like you that I am not a Republican troll. Why should I waste my time trying to convince people like you of that simple truth? Again, if this were a pro-Obama diary, it would probably not have been t rated so many times. You just cannot accept differing opinions and there lies the root of your problem.
the pattern is the same: accuse people of being racist, republican, a troll, an idiot, stupid and unthinking. This is almost entirely from Obama suporters.
Re: Here are some examples
Did you even read the diary?
The diarist refers to Obama as BHO.
As in Barack Hussein Obama. Repugs do that. I have never seen
a Hillary supporter do that.
The sad part is that you are so desperate for anything anti-Obama that you fail to see things that are so obvious.
Besides the obvious BHO the whole diary is a joke.
Re: Here are some examples
Actually he calls him Barack Hussein Obama in the diary itself...last line..
Re: Here are some examples
I've seen several HRC supporters use the BHO initials. It may not be pretty, but I think HRC supporters do use it.
Re: Here are some examples
actually they call him barry, i know it was his childhood nickname, but i don't know why they call him that. check out redstate (i like to see what the opposition is up to) and you'll notice it's always "barry this" barry that
inaccurate
I am a loyal Obama supporter. I and many others use BHO as shorthand. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. cf. GWB and HRC. It's shorthand. We shouldn't be afraid that people will find out his scary secret middle name. Transparency is key.
I'm not sure why you wouldn't have noticed but people on all sides use that shorthand to refer to him constantly.
Re: Open Thread
Obama and the South:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/16/us/pol itics/16south.html?_r=1&partner=rssn yt&emc=rss&oref=slogin
The GOP is scared! Very scared! Hillary may own Appalachia, but Obama is going to make the GOP have to fight in the deep South.
Re: Open Thread
Oh, and this is why the supers shouldn't override the will of the voters and disenfranchise black voters:
One expert on African-American politics, David A. Bositis of the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, called those numbers "almost astounding." Black turnout also shot up in states like Maryland, Virginia and Louisiana, even after Hurricane Katrina had driven many Louisianians out of state.Larry J. Sabato, director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia, said: "This is going to encourage the purplization of red states. It's going to make red states purplish over time."
Re: Open Thread
I am a long-time lurker, rarely comment. I am an Obama supporter in South Dakota. I started at Dailykos and found my way over here from there. I do find that at MyDD, there is often better discussion because we don't all agree. I welcome that, but I do find that people are absolutely hateful to one another in their comments, and I don't get it. Does anonymity give us the right to treat each other like shit? How will we win November with either of these candidates in the place we are now?
On a happier note, I was sitting in my yard talking to my neighbor today. She is a 70 year old woman, devoutly Catholic. She was weeding her garden and mentioned that she was just taking a break from her "Obama campaign." I was floored. In South Dakota, any time you meet a democrat who wants to talk about it is a great day, and I don't expect to find many among my neighbors. Here I have been sitting around watching MSNBC and reading blogs, and she's been making calls and canvassing the neighborhood. She got me off my butt and I've been making some calls. So, thank you, Veronica, for you work to help elect a democrat. What an inspiration!
Re: Open Thread
Nice to meet you bittermom :)
It's a similar situation here in rural Wisconsin. I get excited when anyone wants to talk politics, especially when I find out they're a Democrat.
I live in "the ugly green house on the corner with all the Obama signs." When I'm out in the yard, I'll get a comment or two. Admittedly, my children are a little embarrassed about all of the signs though. I have a sign in every window facing the street--and living on the corner we have a lot of those windows :)
Keep on working! :)
Re: Open Thread
welcome bittermom! I'm an Obama supporter and kos refugee too. I like the fact that there are plenty of HRC supporters here and I also like the size of the community here. It has made for much more interesting discussions.
I live in Oakland CA, so it's kinda hard not to find Democrats around here ;-) I did grow up in Western Michigan though and spent 15 years in Arizona, and so I can completely relate.
I think MyDD will 'normalize' in another month or so. Once the primary fight is over, the Dem-against-Dem topics will morph into Dem-against-Rep GE topics.
I do think the anonymous nature (and the ease of hitting the Post button) make for higher levels of tension. I know I've posted a few things that I felt were a bit petty and stoopid later. Anyway, I think we're due for better days around here soon.
Re: Open Thread
sd? cool, i go to USD,, (you're not a jack rabbit are ya? the coyote jack rabbit feud is a million times worse than the hillary/obama kerfuffle :) )
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