Clinton, Obama and Iran

The Boston Globe editorial page roughs up Senator Clinton for her recent bellicose comments about Iran, threatening to "totally obliterate" them in retaliation for a nuclear strike against Israel:
This foolish and dangerous threat was muted in domestic media coverage. But it reverberated in headlines around the world.

Responding with understatement to a question in the British House of Lords, the foreign minister responsible for Asia, Lord Mark Malloch-Brown, said of Clinton's implication of a mushroom cloud over Iran: "While it is reasonable to warn Iran of the consequences of it continuing to develop nuclear weapons and what those real consequences bring to its security, it is probably not prudent in today's world to threaten to obliterate any other country and in many cases civilians resident in such a country."

A less restrained reaction came from an editorial in the Saudi-based paper Arab News. Being neighbors of Iran, the Saudis and the other Gulf Arabs have the most to fear from Iran's nuclear program and its drive to become the dominant power in the Gulf.

But precisely because they are most at risk from Iran's regional ambitions, the Saudis want a carefully considered American approach to Iran, one that balances firmness and diplomatic engagement.

The Saudi paper called Clinton's nuclear threat "the foreign politics of the madhouse," saying, "it demonstrates the same doltish ignorance that has distinguished Bush's foreign relations."

The Saudis are not always sound advisers on American foreign policy. But they understand that Rambo rhetoric like Clinton's only plays into the hands of Iranian hard-liners who want to plow ahead with efforts to attain a nuclear weapons capability. They argue that Iran must have that capability in order to deter the United States from doing what Clinton threatened to do.

Obama was quick to hit Clinton for her language:

"One of the things that we've seen over the last several years is a bunch of talk using words like 'obliterate,'" Obama, an Illinois senator, said in a separate ABC interview. "It doesn't actually produce good results. And so I'm not interested in saber rattling."
And yet, Senator Obama in the Pennsylvania debate says essentially the same thing, if in much more veiled language:
OBAMA: Well, our first step should be to keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of the Iranians. And that has to be one of our top priorities, and I will make it one of our top priorities when I'm president of the United States.

I have said I will do whatever is required to prevent the Iranians from obtaining nuclear weapons.

I believe that that includes direct talks with the Iranians, where we are laying out very clearly for them: Here are the issues that we find unacceptable, not only development of nuclear weapons, but also funding terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah, as well as their anti-Israel rhetoric and threats toward Israel.

I believe that we can offer them carrots and sticks, but we've got to directly engage and make absolutely clear to them what our posture is. Now, my belief is that they should also know that I will take no options off the table when it comes to preventing them from using nuclear weapons or obtaining nuclear weapons.

And that would include any threats directed at Israel, or any of our allies.

Which isn't really any different than Clinton's actual position, once outside the context of a "gotcha" media moment:
"Well, what we were talking about was the potential for a nuclear attack by Iran, if Iran does achieve what appears to be its continuing goal of obtaining nuclear weapons.

"And I think deterrence has not been effectively used in recent times. We used it very well during the Cold War, when we had a bipolar world. And what I think the president should do and what our policy should be is to make it very clear to the Iranians that they would be risking massive retaliation were they to launch a nuclear attack on Israel.

"In addition, if Iran were to become a nuclear power, it could set off an arms race that would be incredibly dangerous and destabilizing, because the countries in the region are not going to want Iran to be the only nuclear power. So, I can imagine that they would be rushing to obtain nuclear weapons themselves.

"In order to forestall that, creating some kind of a security agreement, where we said, no, you do not need to acquire nuclear weapons. If you were the subject of an unprovoked nuclear attack by Iran, the United States and hopefully our NATO allies would respond to that as well."

Is either Democratic candidate really that far from the Bush administration's position on Iran? Which currently entails using the recent fighting in Basra as a pretext for vocally "exploring military options in Iran" in the pages of the Washington Post.

This belligerent course is neither wise nor as American Security Project policy expert Bernard Finel posts, likely to be effective:

Unfortunately, this is not just a Bush/Cheney initiative. The "necessity" of keeping all options -- including military ones -- available against Iran is very much the conventional wisdom. The argument is that diplomacy only works when backed up by force, or that at the very least putting a little fright into the Iranian leadership (maintaining strategic ambiguity) is unambiguously a good idea. Well, it doesn't and it isn't.

Diplomacy does not always rely on implicit threats, and even when it does rely on threats, those threats need not be military. And strategic ambiguity is not particularly useful when it unquestionably strengthens extremist demagogues in Iran by seeming to support their rhetoric. Just like Chekov's gun which if placed on the mantle in act one must be used by act three, placing the threat of force on the bargaining table also increases the likelihood it will be used. As a general rule, people don't like to make concessions at the point of a gun, and any concessions they make under such circumstances will likely be overturned at the first opportune moment. There would undoubtedly be some emotional satisfaction in lashing out at Iran, but there is no coherent long-term strategy sustaining that course of action. As a wag once argued, "the only thing worse than a nuclear Iran is a nuclear Iran that we recently bombed."

There are many time when force is a reasonably option. Today we are still deeply involved in Iraq and not deeply involved enough in Afghanistan. The use of force is a bad idea in this circumstance, and the threat of it is not much better.

Sometimes I wonder if the primary campaign between Clinton and Obama hasn't become so vicious because the differences between them are so small.

Tags: clinton, Iran, obama (all tags)

Comments

92 Comments

Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

You know I was defending Clinton on this after she said it on abc and i said i expected Obama to adopt the same position.

by lori 2008-04-28 08:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

"because the differences between them are so small."

Sshhh, don't say that around Jerome.  He'll have a fit.  

by iowa dem 2008-04-28 08:22AM | 0 recs
get real

Its what I say all the time in regards to their policy.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-04-28 08:29AM | 0 recs
Re: get real

That was quick.

I will avoid using your words against you when/if Obama is the nominee . . . as many have been using Markos' against him.

Primaries are always tougher than the GE, BECAUSE we agree on the issues . . . so it comes down to personality differences too often.

by FOB92 2008-04-28 08:59AM | 0 recs
Re: get real

I don't care about the personalities either. There were more winnable candidates that dropped out or lost, but between these two, Clinton's more electable imo.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-04-28 09:40AM | 0 recs
Re: get real

Fair enough. No matter what happens . . . Obama is to be applauded for the increase in DEM registration.

by FOB92 2008-04-28 11:49AM | 0 recs
"Gotcha"

Which isn't really any different than Clinton's actual position, once outside the context of a "gotcha" media moment:

She said it. It wasn't a "gotcha" moment. She spoke the words. She put "obliterate" into the debate. She is not a victim.

Obama proposes using diplomacy and intelligence as the first line of defense. Hillary Clinton wants to out-tuff John McCain.

AUMF. Kyl-Lieberman. Obliterate. Exactly what does she have to do to convince people that she has a retrograde, Lieberman-lite, Cold Warrior's view of foreign policy? Her approach to the national security is the opposite of what is needed when the most immediate threat to the country is transnational, stateless terrorism. "Obliterate" is not playing well abroad, including with our oldest and strongest allies, and strengthening anti-American sentiment in neutral and hostile states.

And she's only a primary candidate.

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-28 08:25AM | 0 recs
Re: "Gotcha"

I quite agree.  One does not accidentally say obliterate.  That is a word used with forethought and if you say it you better mean it.  

by iowa dem 2008-04-28 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: "Gotcha"

Agreed, I don't see this as the same kind of "gotcha" moment as the others.  This isn't some pretend-to-be-offended misphrasing.  She's doing some major saber-rattling and basically invoking MAD when talking about a hypothetical Iranian nuclear strike on Israel.

As Obama says, nothing is off the table.  But that's a much more measured and reasonable response.

When a Presidential candidate of the most powerful nation on earth says that under certain conditions they will "obliterate" another nation, people sit up and take notice.  And using that kind of language against a nation like Iran, where we can -- and need to -- make diplomatic progress, strikes me as dangerous and counterproductive pandering.

by ChrisKaty 2008-04-28 09:02AM | 0 recs
Re: "Gotcha"
I agree with you that Clinton's statement was egregious, that's why I lead with the Boston Globe editorial reaming her for it. But the point I was trying to make is that her actual policy ideas aren't really any different from Obama's and neither constitutes progress from the Bush position.
by Texas Nate 2008-04-28 09:56AM | 0 recs
Re: "Gotcha"

Of course Hillary has stressed repeatedly that she would use diplomatic and political tools to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear capability.

She was asked hypothetically what would you do if Iran nuked Israel.  No serious person here has any doubts that any President, Democrat or Republican, would react the same way.

by bobbank 2008-04-28 08:58AM | 0 recs
Re: "Gotcha"

When asked that question, you don't answer it, or at least answer it in a more vague way.   It's such an extreme hypothetical, nothing good can come from it.

Do we KNOW that we'd nuke Iran in response to nuking Israel?  Would we be willing to escalate into a potential MAD WWIII scenario like that?  It would depend on a million things, including what led up to the nuke, how sure we were of the origin of the nuke, etc.

Saying something that definitive only feeds Islamic radicals ammunition to use against you.

by ChrisKaty 2008-04-28 09:06AM | 0 recs
Re: "Gotcha"

the concept of MAD prevented WWIII between the US and the Soviet Union.

MAD = Obliterate

Whether we like it or not, we function under MAD now, as does India and Pakistan, as does China and Taiwan, as does Israel and Egypt and the list goes on.

by sepulvedaj3 2008-04-28 09:27AM | 0 recs
Re: "Gotcha"
I should have been clearer that this was a "pox on both their houses" post, not an attempt to defend Clinton's egregious misstep. Nevertheless, other than the purported psychological insight granted by Clinton's extremely poor word choice, what is the real difference in the two candidate's policies? Both are falling into the trap of repeating the Bush administration's failed Iran policy.
by Texas Nate 2008-04-28 09:53AM | 0 recs
Re: "Gotcha"

Myself, I understood it was a "pox on both your houses".  I think you minimized the sheer stupidity and demagoguery of what Clinton said, and misinterpreted what Obama said, in order to get to that point. Worthy of David Broder himself.

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-28 10:05AM | 0 recs
Re: "Gotcha"
Beyond name-calling, (and comparing me to David Broder, is obviously meant and taken as an insult), how exactly does Obama's Iran policy differ from Clinton's?
by Texas Nate 2008-04-28 10:23AM | 0 recs
Re: "Gotcha"

and comparing me to David Broder, is obviously meant and taken as an insult

Good that we understand each other.

All American politicians have, rhetorically, roughly the same foreign policy, they're all for strong national defense, standing with allies, war as last resort, etc. When George W Bush said that war was his last resort wrt Saddam Hussein, did you believe him? I hope not. You judge a politician and his/her rhetoric in light of her/his record and overall worldview.

Words matter, as we were endlessly reminded in 652 outrage du jour diaries about Keith Olbermann on this site. No one tricked Hillary Clinton into using the word "obliterate". Obviously, she was pandering and trying to out-tuff McCain, but that comment got played all over the world, including in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan. George Bush's saber-rattling and adolescent bluster helped get Ahmenijad elected, and undermines moderates and secularists in Iran. Do you really want more of that? Most people agree we are going to need to talk to Iran on some level as we try to extricate ourselves from Iraq. How is this kind of stupid bluster going to help as we try to communicate with Tehran? as we try to persuade them not to exacerbate the violence and ethnic strife.

Hillary Clinton voted for the Iraq War. Hillary Clinton voted for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment. Look at the people defending her on this thread, praising her for advocating a return to MAD and the Cold War mentality. Mutually Assured Destruction is not a great policy in this situation. It's a bit like advocating the death penalty as a deterrent to suicide bombings.

This was, at best, a monumentally stupid blunder by Clinton. She was not caught in some "gotcha" moment.

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-28 10:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

You can't have any politician show any weakness against a bully. Show weakness and get clobbered. Hillary gave the proper answer to a hypothetical question. Period. 'Nuff said.

by Nobama 2008-04-28 08:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Thanks for the endorsement of Bush style diplomacy. No wonder Hillary is your girl.

Who gets to define weakness? Us or our enemies?

by AHunch 2008-04-28 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran
I guess Hillary wasn't messing around when she labeled herself a "fighter." Someone explain to me again how we are going to restore our standing in the world with a president that continues to act belligerently?
by belicheat 2008-04-28 09:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Diplomacy in the aftermath of a first strike nuclear attack? What the fuck? No. If Iran, or any nation, engages in a first strike nuclear attack it should result in immediate military action.

Iranians are not children. They know how statecraft and diplomatic language functions. What they know, that apparently a  lot of people on MyDD don't know, is that Clinton has been on about the need for diplomacy with Iran since the moment she joined the senate. Her famous AIPAC she says  that nothing was "off the table" vis a vis Iran, took George Bush to task for, yes, taking diplomacy "off the table".

Clinton has carved out the maximum amount of room for herself in terms of negotiating with Iran. Since her goal will be to stabilize relations between our two countries, and settle the middle east down,, that space is a very good thing to have. As Warren Christopher, with the last Clinton administration observed, diplomacy is about building a hallway of dignity for your adversary to exit through. This is a lesson she has learned well, and her hard stance now gives her far more room in negotiation later.

by Little Otter 2008-04-28 08:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

"...diplomacy is about building a hallway of dignity for your adversary to exit through."

Hmm, an interesting and 'diplomatic' way of saying, 'if you do not like what we Americans tell you, then we will not be responsible for our actions'.  Kinda like Madelline Albright's take on the 500,000 children who died as a result of the last Clinton administration and saying it was worth it.  So, we have that to look forward to, I guess, if Hillary steals the presidency.  

by ETHIOLIB 2008-04-28 08:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

The difference between Obama's "no option off the table," and Hillary's "totally obliterate," is the same as the difference between diplomacy and, "the foreign politics of the madhouse."

by Kobi 2008-04-28 08:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

What do you suppose President Obama would do if Iran destroyed Israel with a nuclear attack?

Do you honestly suppose he would get on the phone and ask if we could talk things over?  Any President of the U.S., Dem or Rep, would respond the same way.  I don't think anyone has any serious doubts about that.

So this is yet another point where both candidates agree, but Barack's P/R folks are going to try to put a friendlier spin on things with a gentle euphemism or two.  Essentially you are criticizing her for being more forthright about what would happen.  I'm confident Barack would be equally forthright if he were actually Commander in Chief.

by bobbank 2008-04-28 08:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Diplomacy: Tact and skill in dealing with people.

As has been pointed out, "totally obliterate" is the "diplomacy" of the "madhouse".

Obama did not overtly threaten to "totally obliterate" millions of people. This attempt to cover Hillary's behind by saying she and Obama said the same thing is ridiculous.

by Kobi 2008-04-28 09:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

yes.  exactly.

i was expecting something more from the obama quotes but never got to the point the author of this diary was trying to make.

at the same time, perhaps both these candidates need not talk for the remainder of the primary. Their words have both been erratic in regards to semantics if you are believe the spin generated by certain idiots.

by alex100 2008-04-28 09:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran
The point I was trying to make was that aside from terrible word choice on GMA, their positions are both much too close to the Bush administration's discredited hard line. I led with the Boston Globe editorial for a reason, it shows the international impact of HRC's poor word choice.
by Texas Nate 2008-04-28 09:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

I disagree. Obama's "all options on the table," remark has been standard US policy for 60 years.

Hillary's " We will attack...totally obliterate," remark is pure Reagan/Bush tomfoolery.

by Kobi 2008-04-28 10:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

I will agree that neither candidate needs to say more since the nomination is already decided for Obama.

by Kobi 2008-04-28 10:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Winners Don't yap

Who are you trying to convince?  Us?  Or yourself?

by bobbank 2008-04-28 10:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Darn Kobi- you beat me to it. If the argument is that there is no difference between 'keeping everything on the table' and engaging in hypotheticals about 'obliterating Iran' then I am very concerned (as a UK citizen) that there is such a tone-deafness to what the rest of the world (and Iran) will hear. The 'obliterate Iran' comments have reverberated and the rest of the world is very worried......

by e8voice 2008-04-28 08:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran
Which is why I led with an extended quote including international condemnation of her remarks.
by Texas Nate 2008-04-28 10:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

WTF?? So, now you so called 'liberals' are sounding and acting like Neo-Cons now?  Is this what the new Dem Party has evolved into?  Hillary comes out and says she will 'obliterate' a whole conttry and y'all get up and cheer just like good little Germans?  This is incredible!! How is she different from Bush and Cheney?

OK, let's give her the benefit of the doubt and say that this is 'campaign talk' to get votes, which is really a sick way, but let's give it to her.  But how does that explain you, the Hillary fans, who sounding more and more like the blood thirsty neo-cons?  What happened to the Constitution?  What happened to responding by saying, we have rules and laws in this country and we will follow the rules?  And what business is it of ours to respond to an attack by one country on another? Or have all of you Hillary fans become as mad as she has?

And to saythat Obama's response was 'essentially the same' as Hillary's?  You got to be kidding me!!!

by ETHIOLIB 2008-04-28 08:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

she was responding to a question re: Iran attacking Israel first with Nuclear weapons.

If any country attacks an ally with nuclear weapons, the response should be a reciprocal attack with nuclear weapons.

It is what has stopped India and Pakistan from nuking each other.

She in NO WAY said that there wouldnt be any diplomacy between the US and Iran. It was a response to a hypothetical question.

by sepulvedaj3 2008-04-28 08:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran
"She in NO WAY said that there wouldnt be any diplomacy between the US and Iran" So, we would have diplomacy with whatever charred, radioactive pieces of Iran that remained after we "obliterate" them? Her choice of words was not prompted. I'm not saying that if Iran launched a nuclear attack, they should have a guarantee that we wouldn't reciprocate. But to answer a question regarding nuclear weapons with a GUARANTEE that we will launch a nuclear attack! Not "all options are on the table" but a guarantee. That is reckless. And I have no doubt that if you take that quote out of Hillary's mouth and put it in any GOP member's, there would be unanimous outrage on this site.
by belicheat 2008-04-28 09:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

You ought to calm down.

by bobbank 2008-04-28 08:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

If you're not in this country, you may not get what's going on here. If John McCain, Richard Perle, Dick Cheney, Jeff Sessions or any other Republican had said this, the people defending Clinton now would be calling them warmongers and lunatics.

But you have to remember: Obama's campaign is a cult of personality.

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-28 08:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

I listended to Susan Rice and Jamie Rubin go at it on Wolf Blitzer's show, Sunday.  The one thing that was remarkably clear: these two people do not like eachother.

I thought that Dr. Rice was getting the better of him, until this subject of the security umbrella came up.  I kid you not she completely wigged out.  Wolf had to cut her off several times because she wouldn't stop throwing in these immature little digs.  She also lied and said that if anyone attacked Syria, Hillary would nuke them.  Jamie didn't even have to respond; Wolf intervened and basically put Susan in her place - saying it was clear to everyone that wasn't Clinton's statement or intention.

The Clinton camp's position on this is that they were confronted with a hypothetical situation in which Iran did possess nuclear weapons and did use them.  Does anyone on this website have any honest doubt, whatsoever, that if Iran nuked Israel, we would retaliate in kind, regardless of who was President, or even which party?  I don't think so.

Also I want you to consider that she is part of the Armed Services committee and privy to information that we are not.  There may be considerations for her as to why it is appropriate to use especially strong language with Iran at this particular moment.  I'm not suggesting blind faith of course but just stating that she knows her audience is international when she makes a statement like that.

As for the Umbrella, as I see it: Hillary is the only candidate that has acknowledged in a serious way that there is a reason non-proliferation is failing, and there is a reason these nations feel that they need to acquire nuclear weapons.  Remember that the purpose of her proposed Umbrella is to isolate Iran politically and curtail a potential nuclear arms race in the Middle East.

None of us like to consider such things, but as candidate for President, she has to.

by bobbank 2008-04-28 08:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

I saw the exchange between Rice and Rubin. His childish petulance aside (how DARE she question me -- a former State Dept. spokesman???), Rubin foolishly kept demanding that Blitzer re-read Hillary's statement,"I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran."

So, Blitzer kept repeating it. Which Rice didn't mind at all.

by Kobi 2008-04-28 09:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Yap all you want.  When the moderator has to tell one of the guests that her allegation was ridiculous, it doesn't bode well for that guest.  As I said, before she lost all self-control, I thought she was getting the better of him.  But she wound up sounding like a child, and a dishonest one at that.

by bobbank 2008-04-28 10:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Petty personal attack aside, you were watching the fantasy discussion taking place inside your own biased head -- not the real one on CNN.

Rubin kept demanding, "Read the quote!" And every time Blitzer did, it started with, "I want the Iranians to to know that if I'm president we will atack Iran."

by Kobi 2008-04-28 11:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Petty personal attack aside, you were watching the fantasy discussion taking place inside your own biased head

How much cognitive dissonance is required to type that?  Or do you just not think much?

by bobbank 2008-04-28 01:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

You obviously have difficulty understanding what you see, hear, and read.

by Kobi 2008-04-28 01:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

You don't seem to understand what I was referring to.

You begin a sentence with "petty personal attacks aside", implying you are somehow above them, and then make petty personal attacks, all in the same sentence.  Cognitive dissonance is one pyschological mechanism that can help explain why you're able to be so hypocritical and not notice it.

by bobbank 2008-04-28 02:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

I made no attack. That's why I said you have difficulty understanding.

by Kobi 2008-04-28 03:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Oh spare me the passive-aggressive routine.

by bobbank 2008-04-28 04:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

If you can't take the heat......

by Kobi 2008-04-28 07:32PM | 0 recs
what is the thread starter talking about?

In this context, words do matter. To say that you're going to "obliterate" a country is different from saying that you're not taking any options off the table (US policy for decades).

by highgrade 2008-04-28 08:51AM | 0 recs
words do matter

and in this context the words fit.  In the hypothetical, if the Iranian leadership decided to Nuke Israel, then they will ensure their assured destruction.

by sepulvedaj3 2008-04-28 08:55AM | 0 recs
Re: words do matter
As far as I'm concerned, there should never be a situation that guarantees a nuclear response from our country. Short of a nuclear attack on American soil, that is. As a member of the realist school of thought when it comes to political science, obviously I know that the use of our nuclear umbrella is a powerful foreign policy tool. But again, I don't believe a Presidential candidate should be speaking in absolute terms regarding the use of nuclear weapons. Especially when it comes to the Middle East. It's not like we have much goodwill left to squander. What ever happened to restoring our standing in the world Hillary?
by belicheat 2008-04-28 10:02AM | 0 recs
Re: words do matter

Smart politicians don't make up hypothetical situations to put their foot into. But desperate ones like Hillary do.

by Kobi 2008-04-28 03:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran
Sometimes I wonder if the primary campaign between Clinton and Obama hasn't become so vicious because the differences between them are so small.

Yep. This primary campaign is becoming evidence that you can agree without being agreeable.

by jimmosk 2008-04-28 08:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

You get mojo for that wit. :)

by bobbank 2008-04-28 08:55AM | 0 recs
Apples and Oranges
Obamas diplomatic language is by no means comparable to the word "obliterate". The suggestion that they are comparable is a crock, and the international headlines prove it.


http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q217/tseaver341/TheObliterator.jpg?t=1209401522">
by edmandspath 2008-04-28 08:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Apples and Oranges
That's why I led with a lengthy excerpt including international condemnation of her comment. But I also wanted to point out that ultimately both her and Obama's position are far from where I would like our Democratic candidates to be.
by Texas Nate 2008-04-28 09:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

You can't say you are going to "Obliterate" a country without inciting hatred for the US no matter what.

All options on the table is just far more nuanced, and leaves room for a calculated strike destroying their military and infrastructure instead of killing every man, woman and child in Iran like Hillary seems to be saying.  

by Darknesse 2008-04-28 08:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Yes, you've got a point Todd. What do they say about Academia: the high politics of low stakes

Except, when it comes to CinC, the stakes couldn't be lower, and ultimately - since events are unpredictable and beyond the formulations of policy wonks - you have to rely on the character of your president.

On this score, it's no secret that I feel Hillary has lost touch with reality, and as her AUMF votes makes clear, will trim to the most short sighted view in order to keep her popularity up high. I have criticisms about Bill over Bosnia, and I won't even go there with sniper fire.

Sometimes the personal is political I'm afraid.

by brit 2008-04-28 08:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

A nuclear attack deserves no other response. That philosophy is what kept the Soviets in check for 45 years. What does anyone expect from that kind of question - oh, if Iran attacked with nuclear weapons we would "sit at the table with them and discuss it?" I doubt it.

To offer anything other than a swift response would encourage Iran in their nuclear aspirations - all candidates know this.

by sunnyaz08 2008-04-28 08:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

add india/pakistan to that as well.

Of course, what no one is talking about is the fact that there is (in re: to india and pakistan) and was (re: Cold war) diplomacy at work.

Clinton in no way is saying there will be no diplomacy, in fact, she has advocated diplomacy over and over throughout the campaign. With diplomacy, we probably wont even get to Iran getting a nuke.

by sepulvedaj3 2008-04-28 09:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

I agree, and Obama did a much better job on the diplomacy side of that discussion.

I also, disagree that the only response to a nuclear attack is "Complete Obliteration". You can deal alot of damage to a country and make an example out of them without destroying it's people and killing countless downwinders.

All the same however, you gotta be careful with what you say. You start throwing around words like that, and you give people the idea that you are a death merchant.

To be fair, I don't think that Hillary wants to kill everyone in Iran if they hit someone with a nuke. However, she is smart enough to know that what she is saying is "tuff talk" and a bit dishonest.

by Darknesse 2008-04-28 09:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

"What would you do if Iran attacked Israel with nucear weapons?" That is the question. What other response do you suggest? Diplomacy ends at the point of nuclear attacks. To suggest that Iran would 'get away' with killing millions of innocent civilians (not only in Israel, but in neighboring areas of Jordan and Syria) would be ludicrous. You have to make a serious threat to that kind of action or diplomacy won't work.

by sunnyaz08 2008-04-28 09:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Yes, but again, it's a matter of scale. You can make an example out of a country without killing every man woman and child.

Do you believe that's a proportional response? Or even that a Proportional Response is what is required? That Millions of innocents on "their side" have to die because some nutcase decided that some people on "our side" needed to die?

Again, I think there are better ways to make an example out of a country without having to kill everyone..

by Darknesse 2008-04-28 09:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Remember this...

If a reporter had asked Ronald Reagan what he would do if the USSR attacked England with a nuclear weapon, do you think he would have said, "We'd hit them with everything we have and obliterate them."

He would have said something to the effect that it would provoke a serious and definitive response. Everyone would have known what he meant. He may have even said something more evasive and left the reporter on the hook.

This is a different media environment. Iran isn't nearly as close to weaponizing nuclear material as we though years ago. It's a much colder, cold war. Let it stay that way. Don't talk about obliterating anyone just because a stupid reporter asks you a question. That's your discretion as a leader and someone whose words are transmitted all over the world.

by mikeplugh 2008-04-28 09:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

I happen to remember the Cold War very well and we made such threats to the USSR. Reagan would have said we would attack the USSR if they attacked England with nuclear weapons. Everyone knew what nuclear weapons meant. Some people seem to forget, or they are too young to remember the concept of nuclear weapons - though they are still there. They are horrible devices and they should be recognized for that. I'm all for disarmament, but if someone fires them they deserve retaliation. Nobody wants Iran to get nukes except for it's leaders. Nobody wants a nuclear war. I agree that it is a dumb question and the question is certainly loaded. Besides, Israel has ~300 of their own nuclear weapons - I think they would fire them off before we even had time to think about it.

by sunnyaz08 2008-04-28 10:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran
Exactly. That's one reason why it was a stupid question and response to begin with. I don't care how stupid anyone thinks Ahmadinejad is, he's not that stupid. He clearly knows that if he so much as looks at Israel sideways with a nuclear weapon, Tehran, and probably the rest of Iran will become a burning radioactive hell.
by belicheat 2008-04-28 10:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Obliterate isnt the best synonym to use, but we are fooling ourselves if we think anyone means anything different in answering

by sepulvedaj3 2008-04-28 09:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

I love this 'she was asked a question so she had to answer it' line. Is Obama a Muslim? What would you do if your pastor started making these anti-American  comments? what would you do if Iran had nuclear weapons and attacked Israel? What would you do if pink men from Mars came down and said that they had seen the future and Barack Obama was going to lead the world's richest financiers in a global attack on the human race?

What's wrong with saying, 'that's a question that I don't want to answer, let's move on.' Or 'there are too many 'ifs' in that question so I'm not going to get involved with that?' Or 'that's a question for Senator Obama'? Or just providing a really non-controversial response (as Obama did with his 'nothing off the table' response.)

The 'I was asked a question' line is wearing pretty thin. The whole world is watching these presidential elections and if you think that saying you would 'obliterate Iran'is wise diplomacy or foreign policy then I think you are going to be very surprised come January next year.

One last point, the 'she knows something we don't' line is highly dangerous as well. It's that sort of unquestioning attitude that has got us into Iraq. That lack of accountability just can't be justified in the post-Iraq War environment.

by e8voice 2008-04-28 09:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

It was unfortunate that when the ABC debate did turn to substantive topics they twisted them into outlandish hypotheticals.  The assumption that it would come down to U.S. action to defend an attacked Israel seems a stretch, especially considering the recently-confirmed Israeli strikes against Syrian missile sites.  Obama's position of leaving no options off the table in such a situation is in keeping with a longstanding policy tactic of creating "strategic uncertainty" and shows his knowledge in that arena.  I don't think Clinton's debate response that Iran would risk massive retaliation was that different.  Bellicose statements about obliterating Iran, however, will not do her any favors in drawing distinctions with this administration's foreign policy.

by Mr DC 2008-04-28 12:29PM | 0 recs
Blanket Pakistan and India With Fallout?

"Fallout" is more than a metaphor. Nuking a huge country like Iran would kill millions of people living downwind in other countries (our allies).

Hillary is saying "Hell yes I'll kill millions of people and I don't even freaking care who dies! That's what a badass I am!"

Dumb, dumb, dumb

by bernardpliers 2008-04-28 09:02AM | 0 recs
At leats she didn't say...

"We'll vaporize you ragheads!"

Though it had that tone.

by Bob Johnson 2008-04-28 09:10AM | 0 recs
But we don't want the smoking gun...

... to be a mushroom cloud.

Same old crap in a different wrapper.

by Bob Johnson 2008-04-28 09:09AM | 0 recs
Re: But we don't want the smoking gun...
exactly what I was trying to say.
by Texas Nate 2008-04-28 10:00AM | 0 recs
And neither one of these two candidates...

... will get us out of Iraq anytime soon. I suffer under no such illusions.

That said, either one of them is likely to get us out of Iraq long before John McCain ever would.

by Bob Johnson 2008-04-28 10:02AM | 0 recs
Re: And neither one of these two candidates...
Again, couldn't agree more.
by Texas Nate 2008-04-28 10:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the similarities between Obama's comments and Clinton's. Yes, they both take a strong posture against Iran that includes "options", but there is a HUGE difference in foreign policy circles when you use strong language.

Communication is the realm of foreign policy. The Cuban Missile Crisis was a product of aggressive posturing, using ships and missiles as a symbolic communication framework for a cold war. It almost cost us dearly had Kennedy not handled it well.

Obama's rhetoric is classic cold war style posturing. Using the word obliterate and repeating a similarly aggressive policy position on multiple networks over the course of a week is going too far.

I challenge anyone here to find a credible foreign policy expert to praise her current position and I'll show you a neocon. For the record, I'm not convinced that she's a neocon, or that she'd actually do any of the things she's saying now. I think it's a campaign strategy designed to appeal to the people who want bin Laden dead and put "Don't Tread on Me" bumper stickers on their cars and trucks.

There may be a lot of similarities between them, but this is one difference that is hard to reconcile as a similarity.

by mikeplugh 2008-04-28 09:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran
She chooses her words carefully. Just because the focus group didn't show her the danger of using the word "obliterate" is not an excuse. If she wants to retract it, she can but that doesn't alter the fact she said it and said it several times in different ways.
Sometimes, I get the feeling they are testing out ideas on the platform. If you want to go there, you better be ready to pay the price. Same thing applies to Bill. And Obama, for that matter.
But don't insult everyone's intelligence by pretending it never happened or it was misconstrued.
by shermandem 2008-04-28 09:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

In reality what other weapon have we got to protect Israel than good old MAD - mutually assured destruction. Clinton was just voicing good old deterrence theory. Of course all the Clinton haters here who don't seem to have ten cents of commonsense amongst the lot of them immediately start accusing her of plotting to turn the middle east into a nuclear desert. Are these people just juvenile or silly. Either way I'm sure the pro Israeli crowd in the Democratic party are going to understand where she's coming from even if the Obamanauts don't. This is a very good example of why he's got no chance in November.

by ottovbvs 2008-04-28 09:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Everyone knows about MAD, but there's a difference in invoking it via "we will take no options off the table" and "we will obliterate them".

Everyone knows what you're talking about with the first phrasing, but it's considerably less aggressive and doesn't paint you as saber-rattling regarding the use of nuclear weapons.  Much harder to propagandize you as a callous warmonger, too.

by ChrisKaty 2008-04-28 09:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

I don't want to bash Clinton, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single credible foreign policy expert that would call her words "well said." Deterrence is about subtlety, not saber-rattling.

Let's not even discuss Obama in the equation for a second. This is not about Obama/Clinton. This is about the larger philosophy of foreign policy.

by mikeplugh 2008-04-28 09:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

"In reality what other weapon have we got to protect Israel than good old MAD"

People talk as if Israel is some poor little weakling that has no army, air force, and WMD of it's own.

We don't need at all to "protect" the militarily dominate country in the ME.

by Kobi 2008-04-28 10:20AM | 0 recs
Yeah Obliterate and Nuclear Umbrella

doesn't appear to be similar to Obama's policy. Perhaps McStupid's.

by heresjohnny 2008-04-28 09:19AM | 0 recs
Shock and Awe

The world was hoping for an end to the Shock and Awe policies and macho postering of the Cheney Bush administration if the grown ups from the opposition took charge.

Having McCain singing Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran and Clinton now using the word obliterate really is just a continuation Bush's disastrous juvenile tough guy bluster. The question that was asked was idiotic. Iran a country without Nuclear weapons nuking Israel a country that has nuclear weapons. It is a contrived construction like that old right wing favorite "wouldn't you approve torture if the terrorist knew where the nuke was that was set to blow up NY"?

You would expect someone you where going to intrust with the Presidency to be able to handle the question in a straightforward non-inflammatory way. Israel is an ally, all options on the table, Iran does not have nukes, blah, blah, blah.

Instead Hillary took the opportunity to do some GWB tough guy grandstanding of her own and the soundbyte heard around the world is "I'll obliterate Iran". Context? are you kidding me. Of course you know it's going to be replayed over and over just like Rev. Wright's "God Damn America" from Tehran to Shanghai. I'm sure it's getting a real positive response from the Iranian people that we are supposedly reaching out to.

Really Bush league (excuse the pun) and added to her vote to give GWB the power to start a war with Iran whenever he feels like it even after seeing what he did with that power in the Iraq war resolution has to really make you wonder if this is one area where there really is a difference between the candidates.

by hankg 2008-04-28 09:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

It worked. Iamanutjob wants to talk now.

The tide has turned thanks to Wright.

Its over people, time to unite with the Dem nominee.

Hillary Clinton.

by gotalife 2008-04-28 09:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

what?

by sepulvedaj3 2008-04-28 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

"The tide has turned thanks to Wright."

Not according to polling and voting since this nonsense first began.

by Kobi 2008-04-28 10:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Yes after 8 years of Bush threatening to blow Iran away. Hillary does her best GWB chest thumping imitation and the Ayatollahs are running up the white flags.

You should lay off what ever you are smoking.

While Bush and Cheney were 'getting tough' the Iranians managed to dupe our fearless leaders into getting rid of their chief adversary and handing Iraq to them on a silver platter. Hillary has probably given them hope that the moronic policies will continue. So far it's been a boon to their power and prestige in the region from Lebanon to Baghdad.

by hankg 2008-04-28 10:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Of course, it is all academic because Israel must have ensured itself a second strike nuclear capability, and they themselves will have turned Iran to glass in the event of such an attack on them.

by Bob H 2008-04-28 09:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

"they themselves will have turned Iran to glass"

People on a blog like this should be careful about employing the same grotesque language as people on a blog like freerepublic.com.

by Kobi 2008-04-28 10:14AM | 0 recs
Clinton, Obama and Iran

You have to be very careful with what words you choose.  Obliterate isn't usually taken very well and I know it's not something that Eastern Hemisphere is very happy to hear.

by venavena 2008-04-28 11:11AM | 0 recs
same thing?

My dog has been barking. The neighbor on my left says that he will kill my dog. The neighbor on my right has asked that I try to stop the dog from barking.

No difference.

by danfromny 2008-04-28 11:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran

Not so small a difference.

Clinton has proposed a nuclear umbrella for the whole middle east, to include Arab countries like Saudi Arabia. and of course Israel. She also brought NATO into the equation, a place they cannot actually engage as it is against the NATO Charter (she is obviously ignorant on this fact)

She then went on to use the sort of language that no sensible politician or diplomat would ever use especially in the context of the ultimate weapon.

She is also dumb in not realizing that Iran is not alone in the world. Iran is supported by both Russia and China. So ant attack on Iran is going to unleash both those countries into the fray. Does that sound a smart move. No wonder they compared her to Dr Strangelove.

Then there is Obama's position, e uses the more usual moderate language plus he proposes to sit and talk to try and find some common ground.

Seems like chalk and cheese to me.

Clinton said these words as a posture so she could be seen to have bigger balls that Obama.

Problem is it takes a real leader to be a diplomat, any one can be a bully.

by telfish 2008-04-28 12:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton, Obama and Iran
This is actually informative. Thanks for the insight.
by Texas Nate 2008-04-28 12:50PM | 0 recs

Diaries

Advertise Blogads


----------- myDD - skin -----------