Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

I'm here in a high school gym in Bristol, PA, just over the border from New Jersey, northeast of Philadelphia, at a Hillary Clinton event. It's not a huge crowd -- apparently the event was planned somewhat late -- but it's an enthusiastic one. The area, you will probably not be surprised to hear, has a very working class small town feel. And the event's soundtrack matches the locale -- John Mellencamp's "Small Town" and "Our Country" and Bruce Springsteen's "The Rising" to name just a few.

Ed Rendell is on stage with Hillary. He got the crowd riled up by saying "Know what the two best words in the English language are? Madame President."

Update [2008-4-14 23:5:0 by Todd Beeton]:You can read the rest of the liveblog below the fold. I had wanted to put a summary of my thoughts up right after the event but the wireless was pulled once the traveling press took off. My general takeaway was that it did feel rather rushed and sort of inserted into the schedule -- not the best event of hers I've been to -- but regardless, considering she was here for a total of an hour and a half (she shook hands for quite a while after), she certainly got plenty of bang for her buck.

As fir content, I was surprised she didn't hit Barack harder. She did add "When Americans hit adversity they don't get bitter, they roll up their sleeves and get to work" to her speech but no references to "elitist" or "out of touch." I wonder if this is a sign that she is walking back from the "elitist" language. Lord knows she doesn't need to amplify it. That would be a welcome change. Perhaps a response to the less than welcome reception it got at her speech this morning.

Update [2008-4-14 19:49:58 by Todd Beeton]:Rendell: "We've had some job losses in this area but we are proud resilient people who never give up. We don't get angry, we don't get bitter we work together to turn things around." He's making it personal now, referencing a nearby plant that has re-opened providing green collar jobs. He's getting the crowd going now.

"We don't quit, we don't get bitter, we roll up our sleeves and get to work. A week from tomorrow, we're going to get to work, roll up our sleeves and make sure we elect Madame President."

The place is chanting "Hillary! Hillary!" She just began speaking.

Hillary is talking about her dad who was born in Scranton and her grandfather who worked in a lace mill all his life. "We all have some hard knocks. And I know a little bit about hard knocks." She's talking about the adversity previous generations have been up against, whether the founders or those who lived through the depression. "They didn't get bitter. They rolled up their sleeves and worked hard to overcome challenges."

"What's great about us is that we come back. You may know I've had a few challenges in my life...When life hits you hard you have a choice: you can either get bitter or better."

It's interesting, the people in this room definitely self-identify as the middle class and hardworking sort that Hillary is talking about. Hillary's rhetoric really resonates with this crowd. By the way, the gym is almost full now.

She just pointed to a sign that reads "Hope: Hillary Offers Proven Experience."

Talking about fiscal discipline "it worked pretty well in the 90s." Place goes nuts. "What part of the 90s is my opponent criticizing? The peace or the prosperity?"

She's talking about the price of oil and gas. The people in this room are very angry about this issue. Even "strategic petroleum reserve" got a huge applause.

This is interesting. She's talking about investing in American infrastructure again and the way she puts it is "We're going to put people back to work rebuilding America.""Rebuilding" here has a double meaning that works quite well rhetorically, a nice addition to her stump speech.

The mention of "universal healthcare" gets a huge response, especially when she says "we're going to open up the same plan that federal employees have." She's framing it as a matter of fairness and a matter of universality, which Obama does not offer.

"I want to make education the passport to opportunity." I am consistently surprised what a strong response "I will end No Child Left Behind" gets. Interesting, this is new: "No Child Left Behind has singlehandedly raised property tax rates. The unfunded mandate of NCLB has been a direct tax increase at the property tax level."

"We need to restore our moral authority around the world and that begins with ending the war in Iraq." OK, that is officially the biggest applause line of the night. "I will begin withdrawing troops within 60 days of my inauguration...Some people ask me 'why not the first day?' Because I don't think the Bush administration has made any plans and we need to be very careful about withdrawing our troops...I will be a commander in chief who will lead us out of Iraq but also put resources into Afghanistan."

"As we bring our troops home, let's take care of our veterans. It's one of the greatest obligations we have as a country."

"I can't do this unless I have your help. I know this is a spirited, close contest, we haven't seen anything like it before. That's why it's so important Pennsylvania gets to vote." Huuge applause. "Don't you think every American should have their voices heard? Have the chance to vote? And what about Michigan and Florida?" Again, huge applause.

"Think of this as the longest job interview in the world. We need to get this country back to where you are in charge. The president works for you."

She just suggested that Bush apologize to the country.

"You need someone to go up against the rightwing noice machine. One thing you know about me, they've been after me for 15 years and I'm still here."

Her closing line that's getting people on their feet and screaming is "It took a Clinton to clean up after the first Bush, it's going to take another Clinton to clean up after a second Bush."

She left the stage to Mellencamp's "Our Country."

Tags: 2008 Presidential election, Democratic nomination, Hillary Clinton (all tags)

Comments

136 Comments

Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

I bet she's much happier with her supporters than she was this morning -- when she got booed by folks are still mad about NAFTA.

Pennsylvania crowd jeers Clinton attacks on Obama
Posted: 05:40 PM ET
CNN
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/200 8/04/14/pennsylvania-crowd-jeers-clinton -attacks-on-obama/

PITTSBURGH, Pennsylvania (CNN) - On Monday, with the Pennsylvania primary just days away, Hillary Clinton continued to hammer Barack Obama over his comments that small town Americans "cling to guns or religion" because they are "bitter."

But the audience at a forum put on by the Alliance for American Manufacturing didn't appreciate her line of attack.

"I understand my opponent came this morning and spent a lot of his time attacking me," she said at the beginning of her remarks here.

Many in the crowd responded with audible groans, and a few shouted, "No!"

Obama spoke to the same forum earlier in the morning and ribbed Clinton for doing a shot of whiskey in front of TV cameras on Saturday in Indiana.

Clinton continued, "I know that many of you, like me, were disappointed by the recent remarks he made."

This time, a louder, sustained chorus of "No!" emanated from the audience. Clinton soldiered on.

"I am well aware that at a fundraiser in San Francisco he said some things that many people in Pennsylvania and beyond Pennsylvania have found offensive," she said.

This time, a smaller smattering of jeers.

It was only when Clinton concluded her opening remarks by attacking President Bush that she received a warm round of applause.

The Clinton campaign later said the disgruntled reaction to her remarks came from Obama supporters in attendance.

Several audience members told CNN after the speech they came to the forum to hear each candidate talk about trade issues, and were not interested in the political back-and-forth of the Democratic primary race.

When Clinton focused on policy and expounded on enforcing trade agreements, creating new jobs and standing up to China, she received some hearty ovations.

But despite Pittsburgh's working class reputation, it was at times a tough crowd for the New York senator.

As the question and answer session began, one man asked Clinton for assurances that American workers would not be "tricked" like they had been when her husband signed NAFTA in 1993.

A press release distributed to reporters by the Alliance for American Manufacturing calculated that Pennsylvania lost 44,173 jobs due to NAFTA between 1993 and 2004."

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 03:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

It's nice to see that the voters recognize her desperate absurd attacks for what they are.

by mikeinsf 2008-04-14 03:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Is that something that has been established, and exposed?  Because that is my union, and I pay into the PAC. I am pissed that they endorsed anyone in the primary, and if they really did something like that, I will be withdrawing my political donations from them.

by Scotch 2008-04-14 04:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

I don't think so. "Grendel was misunderstood" has been repeating this all over the place without evidence or reference, probably hoping that if s/he says it enough times it'll stick.

by lizardbox 2008-04-14 04:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Even if it were true - and there's no evidence that it was - where were the Clinton supporters to clap for her?  I saw clips of both candidates speaking to the group and Obama got plenty of applause and Clinton got booed.  

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 05:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

All I heard from watching was that a few people didn't like what she had to say about it. It takes a full room clapping to call it "applause" and all but five boos to call it "heckling". That said, I still think she's doing John McCain's work for him, and that cannot be good.

by lizardbox 2008-04-14 05:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

No reporter who was there said that there was any clapping for Clinton when she made those remarks - and none can be heard.  There was national press there and they say there was either silence, boos, groans, or shouts of "no." So it doesn't seem to me that she had any real support in the room.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 05:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Link or it didn't happen

by Lost Thought 2008-04-14 04:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Once again, link or it didn't happen.

by noop 2008-04-14 05:34PM | 0 recs
here's your link, now zip it.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/14/o bama.clinton/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

by internetstar 2008-04-14 07:29PM | 0 recs
Provide something relevant or zip it.

That link didn't support anything Grendel claimed. The only pertinent information was that Hillary got booed, which isn't in dispute. What point were you trying to make?

by noop 2008-04-16 02:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

SEIU paid obama activists booing a Dem.

Proof?

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-14 04:49PM | 0 recs
way to spam a diary
couldn't you have just written your own and broke copyright there?
by linc 2008-04-14 03:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Putting in the entire article regardless of whether or not you posted a link, is copyright enfringement, and is illegal.

by Scotch 2008-04-14 04:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

I left out part of the article.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 05:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

That was crap.  She did not get booed, she got a couple of jeers, maybe 5-10 on her direct comments to the PA crowd. Maybe 2 actual jeers when she mentions his 'BITTER' comment.I watched it LIVE on CNN.  Some Obama people may be confusing the yeah's and uh, huh's for boo's.  I don't know...maybe it's cause they're bitter. ;)  Come on, that was too easy....

Here is the youtube link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxWSZIDld 1A

The comments are scattered within the first 20 seconds-the jeer is at 46 seconds.

by TxDem08 2008-04-14 04:21PM | 0 recs
no big deal

Where are all the jeers. There maybe were 2 people who jeered on the whole video. this is another axelrod trick to frame this conversation.

by maxstar 2008-04-14 05:39PM | 0 recs
Re: no big deal

You know, there was national press there. And they all report boos and jeers. All of them.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 05:48PM | 0 recs
Re: no big deal

And of course they are impartial observers who always tell the truth. Except when they something bad about Obama. Then they are vile liars.

by doyenne49 2008-04-14 09:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

she got booed..deal with it ...she is pathetic and im frankly embarrassed for her as well as her remaining supporters.

by tommy 2008-04-14 06:50PM | 0 recs
what's embarassing is watching B.O. skidding

all over the place trying to get back what he lost forever.

by internetstar 2008-04-14 07:32PM | 0 recs
Re: what's embarassing is watching B.O. skidding

Scoreboard!

by tommy 2008-04-14 07:58PM | 0 recs
Re: what's embarassing is watching B.O. skidding

Scoreboard? What scoreboard? This is Hillary "I am owed the presidency" Clinton! In the end, regardless of the delegates, or supers, or states, or pop. vote, or anything else... it's all about Hillary. "I've won each and every state that has the word NEW in its name, after all!"

by ratmach 2008-04-14 08:43PM | 0 recs
Re: what's embarassing is watching B.O. skidding

My Bad.Sometimes i forget that we are dealing with a situation where, despite the fact that one of the candidates is ahead by every conceivable metric traditionally used to judge the contest, the other  candidate relentlessly clings to the misguided notion that her campaign is on the cusp of turning a corner knowing full well that turning the corner requires wrecking the car and killing all its passengers.You are correct;scoreboards dont seem to matter to these people.

by tommy 2008-04-14 09:37PM | 0 recs
Re: what's embarassing is watching B.O. skidding

Yes, he is done. He has damaged himself fatally and forever. Maybe Clinton now sees that--that his self-inflicted wound is mortal. Watching him flail around the past few days has been scary and sad. He's toast.

by doyenne49 2008-04-14 08:57PM | 0 recs
We see your two favorite words are

"F**** whore" still...

by zerosumgame 2008-04-14 06:38PM | 0 recs
While Mark Penn Cuts A Deal With Colombia
Oh yes, that will be mentioned
by bernardpliers 2008-04-14 06:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

I wish I was there!  She is one of the most amazing women I have ever seen!

by dianeCrn 2008-04-14 07:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Sorry but you need to get out more.

by comingawakening 2008-04-14 08:48PM | 0 recs
a few SEIU employees

booed her because that is what they are paid to do.  I worked and organized for SEIU and have a lot of respect for how tough they are... but this is what they do and I don't think they should be doing it in this primary.

by TeresaInPa 2008-04-15 04:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Interesting.  Rendell earlier today described Bittergate as "not a sea change" and said that "by the time November rolls around, I think this comment will be long forgotten" even if Obama's the nominee.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/poli ticalintelligence/2008/04/rendell_bitter .html

But now it seems like he's trying to spin it into a big deal, or pretend he thinks it is.  

by bosdcla14 2008-04-14 03:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Exactly.  Because when Hill and Eddie get out to the hinterland they are pandering.  They blow a little smoke up the behinds of these good people, remind them of how "resilient" and "optimistic" and "ready to get things done" they are, and then Eddie and Hill hop back on the tour bus and pull out of town.  

by zadura 2008-04-14 04:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

I don't care for Rendell very much, but I went to see Hillary a week or so ago, and he introduced her just like you describe.  He is actually very dynamic in person and has quite a presence as the warm up show.  

She is great to see in person, too, and when I saw her she gave a speech about economics, health care, and education.  Obama's name was never spoken.  The crowd roared with everything she said.  She really is liked by the people in this state.

by Scotch 2008-04-14 04:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Too little, too late.

by tommy 2008-04-14 06:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Similary to four-letter words, four-word posts are hardly conducive to the discussion.

I don't understand how someone can have nothing better to do on a day than intentionally irritate fellow Democrats, without even attempting to make a single comment related to any kind of argument.

Troll rated as such.

by hornplayer 2008-04-14 08:25PM | 0 recs
I saw her several weeks ago too

and Obama never came up.  He on the other hand seems to spend a lot of time mocking her and McCain. It is as if he has nothing better to talk about.  It is all hope, change and mean spirited mockery.

by TeresaInPa 2008-04-15 04:26AM | 0 recs
Interesting.

I still maintain that she's getting the short end of the stick by playing up the Shiny Happy People shtick in the Rust Belt, but I'm sure she knows what she's doing.

by MBNYC 2008-04-14 04:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

That 90's line is crap.  First, she wasn't the president.  Second, the 90's weren't perfect.  Thirdly, nothing about her campaigning has demonstrated her ability to manage money well.  Her campaign is getting to be like the 3rd sequel to a movie that should never have had a first one.  She keeps repeating the same stuff hoping that people will still buy it.  

by proseandpromise 2008-04-14 04:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

And of course, you're a neutral observer whose words I am soaking up like a sponge.  

by Scotch 2008-04-14 04:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Why do I have to be neutral to point out how ridiculous her claim to financial responsibility is?  You don't get to be in debt and tell me I should trust you with our country's financial problems.  That she are married to the man who balanced our budget means nothing to me.  

by proseandpromise 2008-04-14 04:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

*She is...whoops.

by proseandpromise 2008-04-14 04:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

No, but see, she's only in debt with people's money. With her own money, she seems to be doing just okay. The $5 million will be paid back.

And before I get blasted, I'd like you to think about it a bit. For all those who donated to the Clinton campaign, how did you feel when you found out that the campaign had money problems around New Hampshire? Problems, mind you, that were attributed to money management? How do you feel about how much Penn and his firm(s) got paid? How do you feel about small businesses and vendors having to sue the campaign for their money?

If February 4th was the proverbial "Day One" of this campaign, I truly believe Senator Clinton was ready. Beyond day one, not so much.

by lizardbox 2008-04-14 04:41PM | 0 recs
Ancient history

And I actually started to give her money AFTER I heard about that. I give every paycheck now.

It is funny how Obama outspends her 3 or 4 to 1, and only has a slight lead to show for it, and somehow she is bad with money. No way I want a bunch of clowns that think like that to run my country.

by ineedalife 2008-04-14 06:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Ancient history

He doesn't have a slight lead. He is +10 in the national Gallup poll and he was a six point margin in pledged delegates.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 06:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Ancient history

He has a lead of less than 0.5% nationally in votes counted and certified by state governments.  That matters infinitely more than some silly Gallup poll that will have no actual effect on a single election from here until November.  Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama will not appear on a national ballot, and furthermore, should Clinton sweep through PA, slingshot into NC with increased momentum and make a KO in PR, we're going to be looking at a very different game heading into August.

There is a long, long road ahead.

by hornplayer 2008-04-14 08:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Ancient history

And he's going to win Pennsylvania, right? Right.

by doyenne49 2008-04-14 08:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Ancient history

It's great that you contribute to your candidate of choice, as we all do. The fact remains that when I donate to Obama I get this feeling that my money is a bit more carefully spent than yours.

Secondly, I'm not sure where you get your "3 or 4 to 1" figures. If anything, it's a fundraising cry often used by the Clinton camp. Obama outspent Senator Clinton with that margin on some media in some contests, but not overall. If that were the case, then to Clinton's $190 million raised, Obama should have no less than one half of one billion, not the case obviously.

And the clowns you speak of happened to put Obama in the front-runner position against the establishment candidate, the candidate with name recognition unmatched by any other, the candidate with the much liked ex-president spouse, the candidate who had this thing over and done with on February 5th. I'd put my money on (and with) these clowns any day of the week (mostly every other Tuesday, cause that's when I get paid)

cheers

by lizardbox 2008-04-14 06:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

I use to respect Hillary.  She is after all a very smart and very capable person; however, I question her authenticity, honesty, and sincerity.  She feels entitled to the presidency which illustrates her elitist attitude.  I live in Virginia, a state that is trending blue, and many people that I've talked to think Hillary is a 'bitch' who will say and do anything to get elected.  I use to reject those sentiments, and I use to defend her but those days are over.  She is ruthless, disgraceful, dishonest, and two-faced.  Let's see what card Ms. Sniper Fire plays tomorrow.      

by Steve24 2008-04-14 04:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

funny, all of those words that other people you've talked to are using the Obama camp's campaign words to describe Hillary, going as far back as last fall.

I am sure those folks you've talked to are die-hard Obama supporters.

by colebiancardi 2008-04-14 04:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Sounds like Obama's Talking Points to demonize Hillary.
Nice try.

Reminds me of the Bush/Rove technique of putting the opponent on the defense by feigning innocence.

Sorry Obama, we know all the tricks and we know you are sending your bloggers out to get the talking points out there.  Shame on you Obama, shame on you.

by stefystef 2008-04-14 06:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

"Sending your bloggers out"?  As if all of us are eagerly awaiting instructions about what to say?

I haven't seen a single Obama diary that is cut and paste from his site, but they happen all the time here with Clinton supporters. So is that what Clinton bloggers do -- get sent pre-made talking points? I can't imagine it myself.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 06:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Obama does not need to dispatch bloggers to disseminate his talking points..Not necessary at all given that he more or less wrapped up the nomination in Wisconsin.Hillaarity on the other hand.....

by tommy 2008-04-14 06:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Gee, then I guess he doesn't need to worry that he's been shooting his own feet off ever since.

by doyenne49 2008-04-14 08:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

You know, I just don't see it that way.  I don't know.  Maybe I'm a little more inclined to give the Clintons the benefit of the doubt because I think actions speak louder than words; for all their verbal flaws, for all the smears from the press and the GOP and even today, fellow Democrats, none of it has ever really stuck and the Clintons still gave us the best Presidency since JFK (or maybe even FDR).

I don't know the Clintons personally, but I've known them for a long time as politicians, and I believe that what matters in this life is what you do.  The Clintons did so much good for this country, I don't think I could ever rightly put them out in the cold.  It seems silly to me.

by hornplayer 2008-04-14 08:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

TR's for the anti progressive sentiments and childish name calling.

by Justwords 2008-04-14 09:59PM | 0 recs
it is funny

how passionately you think in Obama talking points.

by TeresaInPa 2008-04-15 04:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

That's right, Obama. Now make fun of her for drinking a beer. I guess he thinks the idea of a woman drinking a beer is automatically hilarious. Dig yourself in deeper, Obama.

Olbermann just said Obama is going to get an upward bump in the polls for his remarks in San Francisco.

Now THAT, my friends, is derangement.

by cc 2008-04-14 04:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Are San Franciscans part of the same Democratic party?

by zadura 2008-04-14 04:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Apparently not.

by RLMcCauley 2008-04-14 04:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

They are the ones that took impeachment off the table. They are lovers not fighters. Even if it means loving torturers.

by ineedalife 2008-04-14 06:05PM | 0 recs
thanks for the post Bull O'Lielly

A) it was just one and no we are not all that happy with her

B) STFU moran

by zerosumgame 2008-04-14 06:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

LOL.  Olberman is on somekind of purple liquidy stuff.

by Scotch 2008-04-14 04:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

I just wonder if drinking shots at a bar is appealing to either soccer moms or culturally conservative men.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 05:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

why not?  I know soccer moms, and they can drink.  And socially conservative men?  When I am forced to go to a redder than red state for business conferences, the bars are packed with men & women who live in those states.

of course, since I never asked their political beliefs, the bars could be packed with liberals, but drinking shots (in moderation) is not a big deal.

and Obama has been photographed with a beer glass - are you trying to say that it is socially acceptable for men to have a drink, but not women?

is there some doublestandard here that I am missing?

by colebiancardi 2008-04-14 05:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Perhaps I'm more culturally conservative than you, but I'm a 50 year old woman and I haven't drunk a shot since I was maybe 22.  I associate drinking shots with extreme rowdyism, immaturity and alcoholism.  And since hard liquor drinking is WAY down in the US, I can't imagine I'm alone.

But, hey, maybe there are lots of folks out drinking shots, including lots of 60 year old women. But my mom and aunts would have never done it and I can't imagine doing it either in ten years.

I admit that my own frame of reference may be skewed. Jews are just not big drinkers compared to other groups, on average. Perhaps others can weigh in as to whether it is the norm for people of her age drinking shots in a bar and also how this might appear to suburban moms and culturally conservative men.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 05:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

do you think that Hillary was rowdy?  

she was meeting with voters in a pub and drinking with them.  She wasn't drinking alone.

I am 43 and have been known to have shots at an event - rare, but I do have one now & then.  I also drink beer & wine.

my mother, who is 85, has been known to have a shot now & then.

I don't think you could call that footage evidence of alcoholism on Hillary's part.

drinking is drinking, whether it is hard liquor or beer or wine.  And Obama has had a beer on the trail as well.

I think it is a double standard.

by colebiancardi 2008-04-14 05:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

I didn't say that there was evidence of alcoholism. I admitted that this is outside of my cultural orbit and that, to me, drinking shots is not something I do as a 50 year old woman, nor would any of my aunts nor my mother.  I also acknowledged that others may have other cultural contexts and in those, this is not uncommon.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 05:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

ok :)

by colebiancardi 2008-04-14 05:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

And again, maybe because of my own culturally affected views, I see it as very different to drink a beer than to drink shots. In my context, one would drink shots to get drunk and that's something that youth might do as they experiment with alcohol. Again, in my context, a beer or wine is something done in moderation and is part of a celebratory or social occasion.  

I wholeheartedly acknowledge that others have different cultures and they may see it differently.  

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 05:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

well, she was having a boilermaker.  That does entail having a shot with one's beer.  So, it is an acceptable drink in social circles

by colebiancardi 2008-04-14 06:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Please tell me she dropped the shot into the beer and chugged both at once.  That would be amazing!

by ProgressiveDL 2008-04-14 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

I am obviously culturally really different from you because it would really bother me to see ANY presidential candidate doing that.  

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 06:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Haha, sorry...it was sarcastic.  I think the beer isn't a big deal.  I haven't seen video or pictures, so I don't know how it went down.  Shooting a shot would be absolutely ridiculous, from either Barack or Hillary.  And sipping a shot would be more graceful, but equally silly (or almost equally silly).  So I wanted to pick the most ridiculous way for it to have happened, a depth charged Boilermaker.

by ProgressiveDL 2008-04-14 06:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

That's what a boilmaker is. You drop the shot glass into the beer bug and it fizzes an you drink it down.

by Justwords 2008-04-14 09:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event
No offense but why do you constanly answer yourself on the blogs?
I'm not much of a drinker but don't judge those who do (oler than you). How do you feel about Obama smoking? It that okay? I don't have a problem with it- but find it silly he is a grown man closet smoking.
by Justwords 2008-04-14 09:45PM | 0 recs
if smoking is bad and you do not
want to set a bad example I think it is admirable to closet smoke.  It's better than the alternative.  
But quiting is really possible (if I could do it anyone can) and he should quit.  I thought he had.
by TeresaInPa 2008-04-15 04:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Exactly...It only proves that Hillary relates to the common man...Right!!! Awesome..I wish i could take back my Obama vote...

by tommy 2008-04-14 07:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

And if a 50 year old man drinks a shot is it manly or is it rowdy? I have to know. I wouldn't want to give the wrong impression.

by NJ Liberal 2008-04-15 02:44AM | 0 recs
PM, your remarks are sexist

if you think there is a difference between men and women drinking shots.  You said "60 year old woman".

First of all, believe it or not 60 is not that old.  People that age have drinks in bars.  I am sure that is not the first shot Hillary ever had or the first beer and she was at an event where that is what people were doing and they invited her to join in.

by TeresaInPa 2008-04-15 04:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

He did get an upward bump in the national Gallup tracking poll since then.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 06:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

National polls dont count, silly...They counted for quite abit back in 2007...Not so much anymore..Maybe Obama should drop out..

by tommy 2008-04-14 07:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Ooooo Ms. Sniper Fire. Shall we list your candidate's exaggerations? Or will we need to order up more bandwidth?

by cc 2008-04-14 04:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Yes, order up more bandwidth because you're going to need it when people list Hillary's exaggerations.

by Steve24 2008-04-14 04:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Excellent message.

Too bad Obama refused to apologize for bittergate.

by gotalife 2008-04-14 04:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Rendell said it doesn't matter and won't affect the outcome in PA or the fall election.

When your biggest cheerleader steps on your smear, forget it.

by Liberal Avenger 2008-04-14 04:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Nothing to apologize for, son.

by tommy 2008-04-14 07:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Yeah, why bother? H'e just lost Penn by 16 points and the Gen to McCain. Apologies won't save him at this point. Son.

by doyenne49 2008-04-14 09:01PM | 0 recs
I thought she said you need someone to go ON

the right wing noise machine. My bad.

by RLMcCauley 2008-04-14 04:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

"You need someone to go up against the rightwing noice machine. One thing you know about me, they've been after me for 15 years and I'm still here."

Yup. She's still here and here we are. She's won two statewide elections against complete non-entities in one of the bluest states in the country (where some polls have her tied against McCain for the GE), she has the highest negatives of the three candidates, and she's down by a hundred electoral votes according to current projections, even giving her Florida, which is at best a longshot, all while the much dreaded rightwing noise machine is attacking her opponent (with the same script she's using).

Happy days are here again.

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-14 04:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Pretty good summary ya got there.  :)

by fogiv 2008-04-14 05:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Talk about winning Senate elections against non competitive entities in blue states is kind of ironic considering Barack's Senate opponent was Alan Keyes.

Also, the most recent favorability ratings from Rasumussen have his favorbility ratings about 3% better than Hillary's, which, you know, if she's so terrible and he's so amazing, you'd think they'd be 10 times better than hers. Oh. And they are polling about even with McCain.

Get your facts straight or get out.

by zcflint05 2008-04-14 06:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Look at the EC maps on the homepage.

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-14 07:39PM | 0 recs
PA and Property Taxes

She clearly has been well tutored on the property tax situation in Pennsylvania. There has been a multi-year push to have them essentially abolished and in this state at least there rates are directly connected to that grotesque program known as "No Child Left Behind."

It is nice to hear her talking about such an important issue locally (I am sure she does in other states as well, but I am not in other states I am in PA.) Good for her... doesn't make me reconsider my vote but it does remind me that we have two VERY good candidates lined up for the fall.

by JDF 2008-04-14 05:05PM | 0 recs
Stick to the positives

Most of her messaging sounds nice and appealing. But she needs to give up the "we're resilient and not bitter" line. She's already overplayed it and now she looks petty. Stick to positive campaigning and focus on solutions, experience and empathy. Those worked in NH, OH and TX and they'll work in PA. Going hard negative and harping on Obama's "elitism" and "bitterness" is going to backfire as it pulls her own negatives up and makes her look like she's doing McCain's dirty work.

by elrod 2008-04-14 05:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Stick to the positives

It has to be remembered that the Clintons have nothing left to lose in this contest.

by Kobi 2008-04-14 05:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Stick to the positives

Except their reputations - and HRC's chance of being Majority Leader.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 05:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Stick to the positives

Reputations? That's good one.

ML? Ask Bob Dole how meaningful that job is compared to president.

by Kobi 2008-04-14 06:17PM | 0 recs
Remembered?

When did we first learn it?

by Trickster 2008-04-14 08:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Remembered?

Some learn slower than others.

by Kobi 2008-04-14 09:05PM | 0 recs
Noted

Got a real answer?

by Trickster 2008-04-14 09:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Noted

Still waiting. . . .

by Trickster 2008-04-15 08:55AM | 0 recs
"We Don't Get Bitter, We Get Better"

was a pretty good line, and if HRC leaves it to that, I bet it would wear well.  Not so much if she clings to the attack mode, though.

by sgary 2008-04-14 10:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Evidently the ARG poll is an outlier - and ARG has big, big problems.

http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/is-clint ons-pennsylvania-lead-really-20-points-3 19/
Clay Richards, who runs the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute's Pennsylvania poll, said he doesn't expect his poll that will be published Tuesday to show much difference from the last one, which had a Clinton lead of six points. "I don't see that much movement in Pennsylvania myself," Mr. Richards said by phone from Harrisburg on Monday.

In a polling report card of 2008 primary accuracy issued by a rival survey company, ARG ranked in the bottom half of more than three dozen polling firms, among 2008 primaries through late February. It also ranked near the bottom in another ranking of pollster accuracy at fivethirtyeight.com, a Web site that tracks the Electoral College. And, as I wrote last month, the widely tracked polling averages at the political Web site Real Clear Politics don't include ARG numbers, because of concerns about transparency. Like they've been in Pennsylvania, ARG polls also were volatile in previous primaries, notably in Wisconsin, which saw a 16-point swing in just two days.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 05:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Unfortunatley, the Survey USA polls that show Hillary +18 come from a much more reputable polling source than even the one you quoted. SUSA will put out another poll this week and then we will be able to talk about "outliers". Obama's pattern continues--he can get to a certain peak in big states, but then plateaus and falls short of defeating Hillary.

by zcflint05 2008-04-14 06:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Fortunately, Hillary is no longer a viable opponent..Mccain is rightly the focus now.

by tommy 2008-04-14 07:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

You might want to tell that to Barry, it seems like with all the ad homs he's been throwing at Hillary lately he seemed to have missed that memo.

by zcflint05 2008-04-14 07:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Dont you worry about Obama...Your candidate sure coul use your moral support over the coming weeks and months...It will be difficult, indeed.

by tommy 2008-04-14 07:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Oh, don't worry, she'll be fine if she loses the nomination. Unfortunatley, Barry will be the one who looks like another big loser not unlike Kerry and Gore after he gets smoked by McCain. And all we'll hear in 2012 is "Hillary...we're so sorry...we knew you were right"

by zcflint05 2008-04-14 08:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

With Democrats like you, who needs Republicans?

by Kobi 2008-04-14 09:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Evidently the ARG poll is an outlier - and ARG has big, big problems.

http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/is-clint ons-pennsylvania-lead-really-20-points-3 19/
Clay Richards, who runs the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute's Pennsylvania poll, said he doesn't expect his poll that will be published Tuesday to show much difference from the last one, which had a Clinton lead of six points. "I don't see that much movement in Pennsylvania myself," Mr. Richards said by phone from Harrisburg on Monday.

In a polling report card of 2008 primary accuracy issued by a rival survey company, ARG ranked in the bottom half of more than three dozen polling firms, among 2008 primaries through late February. It also ranked near the bottom in another ranking of pollster accuracy at fivethirtyeight.com, a Web site that tracks the Electoral College. And, as I wrote last month, the widely tracked polling averages at the political Web site Real Clear Politics don't include ARG numbers, because of concerns about transparency. Like they've been in Pennsylvania, ARG polls also were volatile in previous primaries, notably in Wisconsin, which saw a 16-point swing in just two days.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 05:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

curious, what did that same site say about SUSA? Because Susa had her up by 18.

Secondly, everyone knows ARG is a joke.

by sepulvedaj3 2008-04-14 06:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

having a shot and a beer is not funny. Showing up with a film crew makes it funny.

by goalie40 2008-04-14 05:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

We've tried having a dry drunk for prez. Why not try a wet one?

by Kobi 2008-04-14 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event
Let's make this clear- drinking a beer and a shot for a photo op doesn't make one a "drunk".
Let's save the alcoholic smears for someone else, shall we?
by skohayes 2008-04-15 03:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

When you go into the voting booth, ask yourself:

Which candidate would you rather get shitfaced with?

by Kobi 2008-04-15 07:02AM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Ignoring the noise upthread. . .

Sounds like a great event.  Thanks for blogging about it!

by bellarose 2008-04-14 05:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Hill drinking the shot and the beer is my favorite optic of the whole campaign.  what's wrong with you party poopers?  now granted, I love me some Hillary so I'm not exactly neutral, but what an awesome event, stopping by a bar and putting back a shot and a beer with the boys.  Hill is cool!  

I don't want to go after ole stiff BO but that is much different and infinitely more effective campaigning than sitting around a Marin County backyard psychologizing working people with a bunch of richie riches who haven't got a clue.

by joker 2008-04-14 05:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

I agree that Hillary letting her hair down to shot a few back at the pub is fantastic!!

I drink on occasion, and it is nice to see that she partakes on occasion as well.  She seemed to be a hit with the patrons!!

by colebiancardi 2008-04-14 05:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Hillary is cool..But she will never be the Democratic nominee for president, never.

by tommy 2008-04-14 07:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Are you convinced now that you've said it a zillion times?

Of course, it's quite understandable that a single recitation of such a non-starter of an idea wouldn't make much of an impression.

by Trickster 2008-04-14 08:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

My, you are just soooo constructive in this thread, my good friend.  Tell me, how long does it take you to squeeze out one of these shiny gems?

Troll rated.  Grow up, and learn to talk about something other than "Hillary's gonna lo-oose, neener, neener, neener," please.

by hornplayer 2008-04-14 08:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Really? What ever will i do having received the dreaded troll rating? Rich.

by tommy 2008-04-14 09:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

If you were in her political position, you'd need a stiff drink too.

by Kobi 2008-04-14 09:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

i'll be in Bristol on Saturday

by sepulvedaj3 2008-04-14 06:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event
Check out the responses to Obama on bitter. There's audience dial data and a pdf you can read, too.
http://www.mediacurves.com/Politics/J679 7/
http://www.mediacurves.com/Politics/J679 7/ReportJ6797.pdf
by politicsmatters 2008-04-14 07:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

a song for those of us who are bitter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FikZwgj89 HI

by wrb 2008-04-14 07:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

I can't stand most country, but I like this.

by ratmach 2008-04-14 09:03PM | 0 recs
See....

This is essentially what Clinton needs (well, needed) to do to win.  When she sticks to positives and her message she can run rings around other candidates.  While she has just never connected with me and I have serious issues with her (and all politicians) and many of her votes, when she gets going on the good stuff, she is great and it almost makes me forget why I have unease with her.

This is what her campaign has failed to leverage on.  I think it mostly comes back to the inevitability thing.  They never saw the need for her to really campaign, to really stump and stump hard.  They assumed people knew how competent she was and how thorough and intelligent she was, when actually most people only really knew her tangentially (both positive and negative).  So she campaigned, but campaigned with an air of certainty and more or a coronation tour type set up than a fight for the nomination.  The assumption she had it wrapped up allowed others to jump into the fray and make a fight for it possible.

The part that I think has really hurt her more than anything else is a sense of a lack of graciousness.  In the early events she scoffed at states she lost, types of elections she lost, she didnt congratulate her opponents on their victories and in some instances not even her staff in those states she lost for their tireless work.  It seemed petty and dismissive and was a real turn off.  

On the flip side, the Obama campaign was, or appeared to be, much the opposite.  When they lost, they lost with grace and thanked everyone and congratulated everyone.  When they won they didnt crow (too much) and again thanked everyone and thanked their opponents.  They seemed to win and lose well.  Quite a contradiction to Hillary's campaign.

Yet, somewhere in the middle I thought Hillarys campaign had turned the corner.  It was after one of the debates and she said she was proud to be sharing the stage with Obama and praised him, which to that point she hadnt done so publicly and to me honestly.  For a moment I thought, OK, if its like this then this is the good stuff and lets roll on to August.  I really believed in that moment she possibly had him.  If she leveraged that right, she could have run that meme on to the nomination.  

And then the next day, bam! 'Shame on you Obama'.  And it was right back to the norm.  I cant tell you how much that stupid comment and that idiot behind her nodding his head like a sycophantic doofus almost made me hurl in disgust.  I mean within 24 hours Hillary and her campaign showed everything wrong with what they were about.  High road now, low road tomorrow.  Read the wind and run with it.  Sure, thats politics, but it doesnt suit Hillary's strengths.

I really believe her campaign has taken so many slightly ill-advised twists and turns that keep average people like me stumped as to what their point is.  If they are political fighters then, fine, game on, bring the gloves and lets go.  But then they over play the 'woe is me' card at any turn which is counter to the fighter meme.  Then they play the super umbrage card which is against the 'saddle up' meme.  Then they play the 'arent we all nice card' which is countered by their immediate actions.  I mean, which is it?  

Their best and most consistent message should have all along been - Hillary herself.  When she stumps like this she is great.  But her campaign is awful and plays things so clumsily and tone deaf that all her good hard stumping gets lost is the noise of her campaign.

If she had campaigned like this, consistently from the beginning, this thing would have been over long ago and Obama would probably be looking as the VP slot at best.

by pattonbt 2008-04-14 07:34PM | 0 recs
Re: See....

It makes me kinda sad to think that you might be right.

But then I look back to where the country was in 2005, and I understand it.  For a long time, Hillary was going to have to prove that a woman was tough enough to be President--I mean, remember when 9ui11ani was going to be the nominee?  What good would a "kinder, softer" Hillary have been up against that kind of competition?

For me, as a Clinton supporter, this just proves to me even more that the Democrats need Hillary this year.  She didn't pivot into this primary season quite right, no, but beyond needing the perfect candidate for the Democratic Party's core constituency, we need the right person to run our country.  Having watched Hillary Clinton since I was a young child, I don't think there is a better candidate out there.

But, yes.  There is the right Hillary inside of her to win--or moreover, have already won, had she made better political moves--this competition outright.  I'm just left hoping and believing and working like it's not too late.

by hornplayer 2008-04-14 08:47PM | 0 recs
Re: See....

I never felt a woman would ever have to prove she was 'tough enough' to win the presidency.  I personally think that was Hillarys biggest error in judgment.  Sure some examples like Meir (my spelling coulr be wrong so firgive me) and Thatcher used the battleaxe persona, but America has had enough female judges, senators, governors, etc. to be mostly above the need for a woman to be tough.

As long as a woman was competent and herself, she had a chance to win.  No doubt our country exists to the benefit of white men and women and minorites have more hurdles to jump than white men, I will not deny that, but a woman does not have to win by mens rules.  Plenty have done so on their own terms.

So Hillarys toughness has always seemed out of character for her in how I view her.  To me it was a manufactured add on that seemed counter to her true self.  And the more she tried to prove how tough she was, the more she seemed to pull away from her strengths.

I never felt we needed Hillary or any of the candidates individually.  I think almost all of them would be great presidents.

The problem for Hillary is she never really believed in her real self enough (this is my own pop phychology so take it with huge grains of salt) to go completely with her natural instincts.  And along the way she became a political animal, as all politicans do, and she became so practised at being mutliple things for multiple people that she became a parody of herself.

Yet when she lets her true self shine, she can be mesmerizing.  But she has been in the game for too long and from too young an age and everything is politics.  Politics first, everything else second.  She may not believe it but that is the way it appears from the outside.  Which is a shame.  Maybe she had to do what she did to get where she is now, which is pretty impressive.  But it would be interesting to see the alternate universe where she was more herself from the get go and where she would end up.

All that said, any other candidate but Obama, and this thing would have been Hillary's.  I dont doubt that for a second.

Trust me, I am in no way implying Obama is different.  He may be a little less a politial animal, but he is on his way.  He is a politician and he knows what to say and when to say it.  I just think the stars lined up for him, he was the right person at the right time with the right message and the right ground game (not right as in correct, right as in opportune) to pull this thing off.

by pattonbt 2008-04-14 09:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

well said.

 

by goalie40 2008-04-14 08:02PM | 0 recs
You want elitist?

Elitist is telling poor, downtrodden people that they're not discouraged, they're not cynical, they're not angry, they're not bitter .... no, whether they realize it or not, they're proud, resilient, shiny happy people! After all, what's there to be angry or bitter about? Everything looks just fine from where I'm sitting.

by ratmach 2008-04-14 08:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

"Now it's time to start female rule" -Dalai Lama http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/3587 30_dalai12.html

by Swing Vote 2008-04-14 10:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

thank you for this, todd.  rendell is such a badass, i love him.

by nance 2008-04-14 10:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event
This was taken AFTER "bitter" ...and guess what?
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1327.xml?Rele aseID=1168
by nogo war 2008-04-15 05:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Bristol, PA Hillary Clinton Event

Obama is an "elitist". So says the down-to-earth middle class lady, from the White House, Chappaqua, and Nantucket.

It is so disheartening to think that, with all the problems and opportunities in the U.S. and the world, this election could possibly be decided by an inept description of a cultural situation or perhaps one or two words, "bitter", or "cling".

homer   www.altara.blogspot.com

by Homer 2008-04-15 06:06AM | 0 recs

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