Feb 5th Prediction Thread

Here's my best-guess. I think so many of the states are so close, that its tough to make a 'winner' but here goes:


States

Clinton: CA, NY, NJ, MA, MO, TN, AZ, CT, AL, AR, OK, NM, DE, UT, AK

Obama: IL, GA, MN, CO, KS, ID, ND

I go with Clinton winning 15 and Obama winning 7 states. Where Obama could change the narrative, is with a win in California; that would make it a battle all the way to the convention.


Delegates

I tried to work out a system of counting them, sigh. It's very difficult to do if its not your job. For instance, in CA:

370 delegates will be chosen, and 129 of those allocated proportionally based on the results of the state, so those will most likely split by a few, lets say a 69-60 division in Clinton's favor. The remaining 241 are allocated proportionally at the CD level, but not all CDs are equal.

3 delegates for CDs 20, 47

4 delegates for CDs 2, 3, 11, 16, 18, 19, 21, 22, 25, 26, 31, 32, 34, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 48, 49, 51, 52

5 delegates for CDs 1, 4, 5, 7, 10, 13, 15, 17, 23, 24, 27, 28, 29, 33, 35, 36, 37, 50, 53

6 delegates for CDs 6, 8, 9, 12, 14, 30: 6

In a close race like this, the reality is likely that those CDs will equal-numbers delegates will split evenly, and only those with an odd number will break 2:1 or 3:2, so it's really only about 21 CDs that are up for grabs here.

Some states do it differently, NJ, for instance, has a system built upon the state legislatures, and the majority are 3 delegates per combined LD, so there we'd see a lot of 2:1 splits; likewise NY has mostly 5 delegates in each CD, so there will be mostly 3:2 splits.

Summary

With 1681 delegates and 23 states and territories involved, it'd be a futile adventure to try and nail down something more specific than just a guess at who takes which state.

But I have expected that a nomination of Clinton would become obvious on Feb 5th. I see polls all over the place, and still mostly Clinton leads, so there's not a real reason to change that prediction: that Clinton wins at least 15 states and takes a 150-200 delegate lead after Feb 5th.

However, I don't think Obama is going to be finished off by any means. Its impressive-- how tight that Obama has pulled to Clinton nationally on some polls and his campaigns fundraising in Jan. That was remarkable. I'm with what I think is becoming a consensus: that a Dem ticket made up of these two candidates would be formidable for 2008.

Tags: 2008 election (all tags)

Comments

98 Comments

Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

we will see

by lori 2008-02-05 10:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

Yes we will.

Which technique is superior: best guessing or crystal balls? These kinds of prediction seem to entail a different definition of "hope" than offered by Obama.

by shergald 2008-02-05 11:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

I give up. I've been trying to figure out what Jimmy Carter's book has to do with the price of beef in China, so to speak.

Please educate me.

by ColoradoGuy 2008-02-05 11:28AM | 0 recs
Here's a suggestion.

READ the damn book and learn for yourself.

by Its Like Herding Cats 2008-02-05 11:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

It is all about the Buddhist principle of "interpenetration," meaning that all things are associated causally with everything else.

Our paths have crossed and we are now unavoidably interpenetrated. The advise of the commenter before is well taken.

by shergald 2008-02-05 11:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

Optimistic predictions for Clinton, but to be honest with you, I see Obama winning more on super tuesday.  He will get GA, AL, etc.  He is leading in CT.  NJ is semi-open, allowing independents to declare intentions to vote democratic on the spot.  Independents go for BO.  

I am a Clinton supporter, but I've been campaigning/canvassing for days (in NJ) and the Obama supporters are strong-willed and ready to vote.

Oh well.  At least she has superdelegates.

by findthesource 2008-02-05 01:36PM | 0 recs
Clinton-Obama Ticket Not Just Good But Vital

With so many other structural factors (the economy, Iraq, midterms) breaking in the Democrats' direction this year, what is the one thing that could throw a wrench into the whole thing?

Answer:  Having our two best candidates in 40 years spend hundreds of millions of dollars going after each other, while the Republicans coalesce behind a war hero candidate who can plausibly run away from Bush, allowing him to emerge in the summer with double digit leads over both Democrats.

I think the only way to prevent that from happening, and to prevent mutual assured destruction on the Democratic side, is for Obama (assuming he winds up tonight with a delegate deficit) to put his country and his party above himself, swallow his pride, and agree soon to take the VP post.

A protracted fight for the Democratic nomination is the best chance the Republicans have of sneaking back in in November.

by Dooley 2008-02-05 10:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton-Obama Ticket Not Just Good But Vital

I think the idea that the Dems won't come together at the end is incorrect.  Dems are very motivated and will supprort whoever is nominated.

by danielj 2008-02-05 10:41AM | 0 recs
thank you

mydd / real world

by Max Fletcher 2008-02-05 10:45AM | 0 recs
should say = / =

by Max Fletcher 2008-02-05 10:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton-Obama Ticket Not Just Good But Vital

I hope you're right.  I know some Obama supporters who seem pretty passionate about not supporting Hillary.  Whereas I've seen exactly two Clinton supporters say they won't support Obama.

by InigoMontoya 2008-02-05 10:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton-Obama Ticket Not Just Good But Vital

Just your typical heat of the primary talk.  After 8 years of Bush, with the Supreme Court clearly on the line (the next few retirees are cleary the liberals), there is no way Dems are going tostay home.  Certainly not the Dems committed enough to pay close attention to the primaries.

by danielj 2008-02-05 10:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton-Obama Ticket Not Just Good But Vital

I'm not worried about supporters not kissing and making up.  I'm worried more about $250 million that could be used in the general election going down the drain.  

by Dooley 2008-02-05 10:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton-Obama Ticket Not Just Good But Vital

Then you haven't been paying enough attention on MyDD as I have seen many who said they won't support Obama at all.

That being said, I pretty much agree with Jerome in the sense that I think a ticket with Both of them is the best choice for us in 2008.  Motivate the black vote and female vote, motivate the base, and help to stem Latinos voting for McCain (which is a fear of mine).

by yitbos96bb 2008-02-05 10:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton-Obama Ticket Not Just Good But Vital

Then you haven't been paying enough attention on MyDD as I have seen many who said they won't support Obama at all.

I've been paying attention, I just think it's typical primary BS.  Besides, the idea that contributors to this blog represent the median Dem or median voter is ridiculous.  

by danielj 2008-02-05 10:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton-Obama Ticket Not Just Good But Vital

Not that I think this is indicative of all Hillary supporters but I was out doing petitions with a candidate this weekend and were told by no less than 6 people that they would only sign his petitions if he promised to support Hillary (now we are in Pa, so this probably won't matter.) But when I asked them about Obama 2 of them said they would vote republican, 1 said they wouldn't vote at all and the other 3 were unsure.

I think this has been an incredibly divisive campaign and it might even become more so before the convention.

by JDF 2008-02-05 11:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton-Obama Ticket Not Just Good But Vital

I'm aware of a third (not myself).

by rfahey22 2008-02-05 11:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton-Obama Ticket Not Just Good But Vital

Not necessarily.

I am a 60-year-old lifelong Democrat and have never voted any way but Democratic.  However, I was not happy at all with Bill Clinton and I don't think if Hillary runs against McCain I can do anything but write in (probably Kerry) a candidate.  I am not strongly pro Obama but would gladly vote for him.  I supported Edwards initially.  The issues that are key to me are the environment, criminal justice (including an absolute ban on torture), and health care.  Hillary's record on criminal justice issues is appalling.

My feeling is if she cannot control Bill in the primary seaason, how in God's name is she going to keep him out of her administration.  He did more to damage the Democrats than anyone I can think of, to veer the party to the right, to not speak out on what was impoorant, and I just will not support another misadventure by the two of them.

Obviously if any other GOP candidate wins I will hold my nose and vote for Hillary Clinton, but otherwise, uh uh.  I started working for the party, by the way, with RFK's candidacy and never ever thought I would be saying these words.  

Mady

by mady 2008-02-05 11:25AM | 0 recs
I think I could safely name....

at least a dozen HRC diary authors here on this site who would NEVER vote for a ticket that had Obama in the top spot.  From the tone of what I read here every day I think there are too many Clinton supporters who are all about "Clinton" and less about "Democrats".

Some people would rather be right than successful!

by Its Like Herding Cats 2008-02-05 11:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton-Obama Ticket Not Just Good But Vital

Clinton-Obama ticket would rock?  She can lead for 1 (or maybe 2) terms, cleaning up Bush's mess, and then Obama can take over  with his vision for the future.  I still want her to be first because we need a serious cleaning up of Bush's mess and she has the experience.

It would rock because potentially the Dems could have control for 12-16 years!  That would totally undo the years of Reagan/Bush admin.

My only reservation is that (some) Obama fans are very anti-Hillary, in an angry way.  They may resent that their messiah does not get top billing.  

by findthesource 2008-02-05 01:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

I think that either one or all of the following could swing in Obama's direction: DE, AL, AK, MO, and CT. I'm hopeful, anyway.

I'm less optimistic about CA. Obama may make it close, but Clinton's long-held advantage will be reflected in the early voting. Any late surge by Obama will not be enough to overcome that. If he can stay close on the delegate count in CA, then I would consider that a victory of sorts.

by DPW 2008-02-05 10:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

i think Utah could as well... the only poll taken had Obama up big, and he just had Michelle do a visit. Obama is also the only candidate with a field office in the state

by Max Fletcher 2008-02-05 10:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

My gut told me UT would be for Obama as well, but I haven't seen any polling. So, I left it alone.

There is also the overseas vote, which will give Obama a few delegates.

by DPW 2008-02-05 10:52AM | 0 recs
by yitbos96bb 2008-02-05 10:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

I think Jerome's piece is sort of the reverse of Pablano's over at Kos - it's the best plausible scenario for Clinton tonight (since it has all of the "battleground" states breaking her way). There really is no way to know.

And I'm very skeptical that you'd see a Clinton/Obama ticket.

by thirdestate 2008-02-05 10:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

It just wouldn't make any sense for either of them to put the other at the bottom of the ticket, unless Penn's latest microtrend shows that their loss of enthusiasm and support amongst so many black voters turns out to be permanent

by Max Fletcher 2008-02-05 10:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

It only doesn't make sense if you follow the narrow limited PICK FOR GEOGRAPHY or Demographic strategy which has not been successful for a long while.  Bush picked Cheney because he helped balance out the ticket, not because of where he was.  Clinton picked Gore because it fit the theme of his campaign and a dynamic young personality meme he was selling.  Meanwhile, Dukakis picks Benson for Geography, Dole picks Kemp for Georgrapy and Gore picked Lieberman to shore up the Jewish vote and solidfy the Northeast, and Edwards was forced on Kerry for Georgraphy.

Obama balances out Clinton's Flaws just as she balances out his.  He is dynamic, she is wonkish... again a good fit.  BOTH can fundraise better than McCain, and together could possible double his spending and run a true 50 state campaign.  Together, the conceivably could create such a strong win that it becomes a major mandate... I'm talking 55-45 or maybe even 60-40% (ok probably not that high but 55-45 is conceivable.)  It unites the party and sets us up for a long time.

by yitbos96bb 2008-02-05 11:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

Balance is fine, but it should be subordinate to the overall message the top of the ticket wants to communicate, and not contradict it.  Richardson, for example, makes some sense for Clinton because he emphasizes her key message (ready from day 1) and also provides some regional and demographical balance.  That's fine.

I love Edwards (I voted for him in 2004 and would have this year had he stayed in the race), but he made no sense as VP for Kerry.  All he did was emphasize Kerry's liabilities (NE liberal who can't communicate to the common person).  It didn't work. Just like putting Bentsen on the ticket didn't convince anyone that Dukakis wasn't a NE liberal or that choosing tax cut enthusiast Kemp made Bob Dole look like he was enthusiastic about anything other than a nap.

If HRC wins the nomination, what does Obama do for the ticket?  Is he an experienced executive?  We're going to win Illinois one way or the other, right?  More importantly, he's a "vision candidate" and putting him on the ticket makes it look like HRC isn't confident in her competing vision for the presidency.

If Obama wins the nomination, again, why would he need HRC?  He's emphasizing bringing change to Washington and getting beyond the old squabbles.  Putting a Clinton on the ticket does not emphasize change or (fairly or not) certainly doesn't allow us to skip the squabbles of the past.  

Balance can work in a VP choice but not at the expense of muddling the nominee's key message.

by danielj 2008-02-05 11:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

I think she needs him more than he needs her personally.  

by yitbos96bb 2008-02-05 11:24AM | 0 recs
poblano

No question poblano's prediction assumes everything goes Obama's way, like his hilariously precise prediction of Obama's win in NH after Iowa he puts too much stock in momentum. Jerome's prediction here is not what happens if everything goes Clinton's way, it is the polling averages except KS and MN, which he tilts to Obama.

If you assume undecideds break for Clinton the picture looks better than this.

by souvarine 2008-02-05 11:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

The scenario outlined in this post is really the best case scenario for Clinton. I don't see her getting a 100+ delegate lead after tonight. I think it'll be closer. I would definitely not be surprised to see Clinton win the popular vote in some states but Obama getting more delegates in those states.

by mecarr 2008-02-05 10:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

She already has a 90 or so delegate lead, it would have to be pretty tied to not have her go above a 100 lead.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-02-05 10:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

Most people are talking about pledged delegates when they discuss the delegate lead coming out of February 5th.  Are you including super-delegates?  If so, I didn't get that from your original post.  

by HSTruman 2008-02-05 10:47AM | 0 recs
superdelegates

a lot are still waiting to decide, and at this point it would seem they are waiting for a nominee to emerge from actual voting (like Senator Boxer said she would wait for California)

it would be pretty disheartening to see this come down to superdelegates and how michigan and florida are dealt with, so hopefully someone starts winning big and prevents that from happening

by Max Fletcher 2008-02-05 10:52AM | 0 recs
Re: superdelegates

Bowers talks about it in detail on Open Left.  He is proposing us pressuring super delegates to back the Pledged delegate leader so we don't end up in a Mondale/Hart situation.  

I do like his other proposals...

1) For Obama to agree to seat the delegates, but he gets all the Michigan uncommitted ones.  I think you may have to throw in Edward's florida ones too, but Clinton would still be in the positive there.  

2) Both Obama and Hillary agree whomever is winning in Pledged Delegates after the last contest will get the support of the other candidate.  SO if Obama is leading in Pledged, then Clinton tells her peopel to vote Obama and vice-versa... this keeps it out of the SD hands.  Both scenarios were presented as one scenario and I do think would be fair.  I would add on winner picks other as VP, but thats because I think they both would be good.  I just don't see Clinton agreeing to be Obama's VP, whereas I think he Would agree to it.

by yitbos96bb 2008-02-05 11:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

I was talking about SD's plus the state D's.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-02-05 01:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

OK, thanks.  Just trying to make sure I get what we're talking about.  I'm personally less focused on SDs at this point, since they're fluid.  

by HSTruman 2008-02-05 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

Is that counting Florida and Michigan? I thought Obama was ahead when not counting those two states.

by mecarr 2008-02-05 10:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

She only has a 90 delegate lead if the delegates from Florida and Michigan are counted. It is dishonest at best to suggest that they count before we know for sure.

by JDF 2008-02-05 11:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

It also depends on who uncommitted votes for doesn't it?

by yitbos96bb 2008-02-05 11:11AM | 0 recs
Worse than that....

It's dishonest to suggest that the FL and MI delegate votes will play any role what so ever in determining the nominee.   It has been made crystal clear by the DNC that FL and MI delegates will not have their votes recorded until AFTER a nominee has been chosen and then only if the chosen nominee supports their seating.

The DNC has made it clear, the seating of the FL and MI delegates will not be voted upon, the rules committee has already made it clear there will never be a vote on these delegates, despite what some people want to tell you.

by Its Like Herding Cats 2008-02-05 11:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Worse than that....

Link to the statement by the rules committee?

by Steve M 2008-02-05 11:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Worse than that....

I've read it several times in several different places over the last few months, I cannot now find the link for you but let me further explain the process and shed some light that others have purposely ignored as to how the seating process works.

IT IS ALL ABOUT DELEGATE COUNT GOING INTO THE CONVENTION.  You have to approach the argument from the belief that:

1.  One candidate will have enough delegates going in to win the nomination outright, regardless of FL and MI, in which case those states delegates will obviously be seated and the whole issue is moot.

or

2.  Neither candidate by themselves has enough delegates to win outright in which case we can assume that the delegate count is exceedingly close, then Edwards delegates become the tipping point.

If HRC does not have more delegates than Obama, or enough to win the nomination outright,  If she needs FL and MI to win, she will have a tough fight without Edwards releasing his delegates to support a minority report seating FL and MI. Fl and MI cannot by rule vote to seat themselves. They are, for lack of a better analogy, dependent on the kindness of strangers.

This is a fight that no one can win unless they control the floor votes, the delegates already seated, which does not and will not under any circumstances include FL and MI.

The list of delegates (Call for the 2008 Democratic National Convention, VIII(B)(1), p. 14) selected under the existing rules and sent to the Convention is called the "Temporary Roll":

The Secretary of the Democratic National Committee shall determine a Temporary Roll of delegates to the Convention which shall consist only of those persons selected and certified as delegates in accordance with the Rules and pursuant to this Call,

(Florida and Michigan by rules CANNOT be included on this list)

unless a credentials contest shall have arisen with respect to any such person(s), in which case the Secretary shall include on the Temporary Roll the name of the credentials contestant recommended for inclusion by the Credentials Committee in its report.

So, as you can see, there's this "Temporary Roll"   of delegates that is considered by the Credentials Committee. It includes the delegates selected by the rules (NOT FL and MI) and it also includes contestants recommended for inclusion by the Credentials Committee. If 20% or more of the Credentials Committee's delegates vote for other persons to be seated other than those on the Temporary Roll, then a Minority Report is sent to the floor for vote, in this case a report including the delegates selected by Michigan and Florida. (Id. at VII(J)(2), p. 14.) Consideration of the Credential Committee's reports is the Convention's first order of business, and the delegates listed in whichever report is adopted by a majority of the previously-seated delegates will vote on all subsequent convention business. (Id. at VIII(C)(1), p. 15 and VIII(B)(2), p. 14.)

There's another point to be made here and it's very simply that you're not going to win this vote unless you have a majority of the floor delegates already seated. No one, is going to come to the Convention with a minority of the delegates and steal the nomination from an unwilling Party. The only way to take the nomination from the pre-convention leader (that person with the majority of floor delegates) is for a candidate to get delegates pledged to other candidates, or unpledged, to go along with them (Edwards delegates). In such case, the elected delegates ultimately hold all the power, as they should.

The nominee will be chosen before FL or MI delegates will be seated, that is just a reality regardless of what anyone wants to tell you.

Obama will not let FL and MI be seated if it costs him the nomination.  The only way these delegates are seated if they will determine the eventual outcome, is after a prolonged deal making session between Clinton, Obama and most likely Edwards.

by Its Like Herding Cats 2008-02-05 01:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Worse than that....

You said the rules committee has made it clear that there will never be a vote.  That hardly seems evident from your comment.  Meanwhile, we have Howard Dean on TV today stating that it's not a settled issue and that it will be up to the credentials committee.

If your claim is that the rules committee has "made it clear," then show us something clear, please.  A diary would be of great interest to all.  But please don't claim they've "made it clear" and then try to lead us through some 15-step chain of logic.

by Steve M 2008-02-05 01:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Worse than that....

If it wasn't clear...

1.  Rules send temporary roll call to credentials comittee.  It will NOT include FL or MI.

2.  Candidate may file petition to include delegates not included in the temporary roll call.  A minority report will be filed that includes those two states. (ie FL and MI)

3.  Floor vote will occur on minority report. Fl and MI will NOT be allowed to vote on their own admission.

4.  The candidate who controls the majority of delegates on the floor will control the outcome. PERIOD.

5.  Follow the logic, would Obama allow FL and MI to be seated if it cost him the nomination?   No.

6.  Either we will have a nominee by the time the convention begins, in which case it is all moot, or the delegate count will be so close that no one has the necessary delegates that the 26-50 delegate that Edwards controls will decide both the seating of and most likely the election of our nominee.

There are no other scenarios. Rules are rules and the entire floor votes on the seating of FL and MI.  The credentials committee does not decide the issue, it merely  decides whether to include a minority report that will send the issue to the floor.  and those votes on the floor are controlled by the candidate.

by Its Like Herding Cats 2008-02-05 02:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Worse than that....

Again, you're simply not showing me where the rules committee has made it clear that there will be no vote.

by Steve M 2008-02-05 03:37PM | 0 recs
Look.....

As I said, I do not have that link, but I have provided you with the rules to the convention which others have failed to do.  others have claimed that the credential commitee will vote on whether to seat FL and MI.  That is patently false they will only vote on whether to include a minority report that will go to the floor for a vote.

The argument, based on very simple logic and fact is easy to follow.  And as I have stated numerous times, there will be no vote unless and until there is already a nominee.  

Hillary can petition for a minority report to be included, but unless she has the delegates on the floor, it won't be approved.

The math strongly suggests the number of votes needed to win the nomination is the same number of votes needed to seat Fl and MI.  There is a lot of confusion as to whether FL and MI super-delegates will be allowed to vote prior to their home state delegates being seated. There is after all a good-old-boy network at play here.

If you don't have this magic number of delegates going into the convention, you are not going to be able to seat these delegates.

Honestly, do you think Obama would allow his delegates to vote in favor of seating FL and MI if it would cost him the nomination?

Come to reality my friend.  Fl and MI sealed their fates and cannot now claim ignorance.  Lest you forget, the bill to move Florida's election was a Democratic bill and it passed the Senate unanimously and the Assembly with only two dissenting votes.  

Ask yourself, IF, there is no candidate who has the requisite number of delegates to win the nomination, it by definition will be so close as to make Edwards 26-50 Delegates the deciding factor.

I'll say it again, There will be a clear cut nominee going in, or Edwards will become the deciding factor in both the seating of FL and MI and nomination of our candidate.

by Its Like Herding Cats 2008-02-05 04:08PM | 0 recs
VP

I really don't think either HRC or Obama makes a lot of sense as a VP.  I get that it's about bringing the big winners together in a peaceful way, but I think the 2 candidates have competing profiles that would only serve to muddle the message at the top of the ticket.  

If Obama is the nominee, he's better off taking somebody like Webb or Sebelius (someone a little unorthodox and change-oriented) while HRC should take someone like Richardson or Clark, which highlights her commitment to experience.

by danielj 2008-02-05 10:40AM | 0 recs
Re: VP

In the abstract, I agree with you about running mates. However, unification of the party may require Obama to be on the ticket if Clinton gets the nomination. I don't particularly like the idea (I'm an Obama guy, FYI), but I understand the practical reasons underlying the proposal.  

by DPW 2008-02-05 10:49AM | 0 recs
Re: VP

As I wrote in a comment higher up, there won't be any need to unify the party.  The Dems will vote for the nominee.  If they are paired, the only thing the media will write about is the "shotgun wedding" aspect.  Whoever wins should get to pick the VP that makes the most sense for him or her.

by danielj 2008-02-05 10:53AM | 0 recs
Re: VP

Yeah, but it's conceivable that should the primary campaign drag out to near the time of the convention that support hardens for the two candidates.  I'd rather see a VP deal struck ahead of time than the race be decided by superdelegates on national TV

by NoahPinto 2008-02-05 10:56AM | 0 recs
Re: VP

I agree with you, I think the only reason Clinton would pick Obama as VP is if the race continues to be very close and they feel they need to pick Obama to unite the party and overcome perceptions that they played the race card.

Richardson makes some sense for Obama too though.  He brings experience to the table to help assuage voters who think Obama's resume is too light, he won't outshine the nominee (ha) and he'll shore up support among hispanics, which is crucial since McCain is going to be the Republican nominee and he could actually win a fair share.

I like Webb and Sebelius as Obama VPs too though

by NoahPinto 2008-02-05 10:52AM | 0 recs
Re: VP

If McCain doe win the Nom, I think its Richardson for Obama.  I like Webb better, but I think McCain's immigration stances might drain some latino votes and Richardson or CLinton helps shore those votes up.

by yitbos96bb 2008-02-05 11:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

I will give Clinton AZ, AR, CA, CT, MA, MN, MO, NJ, NM, NY, OK, and TN.

Obama gets AL, AK, CO, DE, GA, ID, IL, KS, ND, and UT.

I offer these predictions not because I think I know anything, but simply because it seems cowardly not to stick my neck out.

by Steve M 2008-02-05 10:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

IF Hill wins NY, NJ and CA...she wins period.

by Seymour Glass 2008-02-05 10:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

If she wins three states that were supposed to be her firewall, she wins "period?"  

Interesting theory.  

by HSTruman 2008-02-05 11:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

Um, isn't that the definition of a firewall? If there is a fire it remains standing?

by souvarine 2008-02-05 11:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

If all you've got left is the firewall, does that mean that you've "won" or that you simply haven't lost yet?  Stated otherwise, are politicians in good shape if they're relying on their firewall?  I think not.  

To be clear though, all I'm saying is that this thing is a jump ball right now.  Winning those states won't change that, but some other things could.  We'll all just have to wait to find out.

by HSTruman 2008-02-05 11:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

Well no, ideally you never need your firewall. You only need it when there is a fire, fires are bad. Obama caught fire, the question now is will Clinton's firewall hold, like New Hampshire did.

by souvarine 2008-02-05 11:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

Um No.  Not even close.  Hillary winning Cali by 3-4% is not a WIN for her... not even close.  The closer Obama makes NY, NJ and CA, the more of a draw/Obama win scenario developing in the media.  He wins either NJ or CA (something I don't think will happen, but more likely than him winning NY) then the media narrative will hurt Hillary.  

by yitbos96bb 2008-02-05 11:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

Neither will "win" CA, NY or NJ unless they can garner 65% of the vote.  The delegate count from all 3 states will most likely be so close regardless of who wins the popular vote that the chances of either one winning the popular vote in all 3 states and coming away with a considerable delegate lead are slim at best.

by Its Like Herding Cats 2008-02-05 11:22AM | 0 recs
I predicted an 11-11 split

I think Clinton will win these 11 states today: AZ, AR, CA, DE, MA, NJ, NM, NY, ND, OK, TN

Although Obama has all the momentum in CA, I pick Clinton to hang on (barely) there. I was persuaded by silver spring's diary that most of the polls understate the percentage of women voters:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo...

I think Obama will win these 11 states today: AL, AK, CO, CT, GA, ID, IL, KS, MN, MO, UT

A friend in Alabama e-mailed me a couple of weeks ago. He is fairly well-informed normally, and he told me he was supporting Obama because he hadn't heard any reason not to.

This is a big problem for Clinton right now. Everyone has heard the reasons not to support her, but most people have not heard any reason not to support Obama.

I've also got Obama winning America Samoa and Americans living abroad, for what that's worth.

by desmoinesdem 2008-02-05 10:46AM | 0 recs
Re: I predicted an 11-11 split

I agree on Cali but for different reasons... I think the early voting gives it to Hill while Obama wins the voting today, but by less of a margin.  I think its Hillary by 4% in Cali, 51% to 47%

by yitbos96bb 2008-02-05 11:16AM | 0 recs
A bit optimistic for Clinton...

The only thing I saw from Utah seemed to suggest Obama would win there comfortably. I also think it's hard to imagine Obama not winning at least one tossup state.  The polls are so close with so many undecideds and 13 states letting independents votes that I'm sure Obama will overperform in some states.  He'll also likely underperform in others.  Given the number of states and the likelyhood of variance, I think that's why many people making predictions are putting numbers, like Kos, so they can at least say when they think it will be close, or are leaving tossups, like Ambinder.

by NoahPinto 2008-02-05 10:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread


If she's our nominee, I'd vote for Hillary, but I wouldn't be too excited about volunteering for her.  I had the privilege of seeing her in person twice here in Iowa, and I was none too impressed.  It's about the courts, I guess.  *Sigh

Oh, and there's Nader, too... and Bloomberg.  Sigh*

I pray that Obama can pull this thing off.

by IowaCubs 2008-02-05 10:47AM | 0 recs
My Predictions

These were my predictions yesterday, and while Obama may do better I don't know what to switch.  So I am ready to wear my egg proudly.

Clinton:
AK, AZ, CA, CO, CT, DE, KS, MA, ND, NJ, NY, OK, TN UT

Obama:
AL, GA, ID, IL, MN, MO, NM

I think states will run very close and Obama is better positioned to pick up many delegates, so Clinton nets 35 delegates today.

by rcipw 2008-02-05 10:49AM | 0 recs
Re: My Predictions

I would think Kansas would be the one to switch...Obama was born there, has the endorsement of the governor, it's a caucas which favors his organizational advantage which in Kansas is definitely evident. He also visited the state.

by NoahPinto 2008-02-05 10:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread


States:

Too close to call (i.e. split pop vote and delegate):  CA, CT

Clinton:  NY, NJ, MA, TN, AZ, AL, AR, OK,  AK

Obama: IL, GA, MN, DE, MO, CO, KS, ID, ND, NM, UT

Can't wait to watch Jerome eat it tonight.

Warning my ass.

by jgkojak 2008-02-05 10:53AM | 0 recs
Blood bath going forward

Obama will have to attack.  He and his wife have already been pretty "sharp" in their message leading up to Feb 5.  If he comes out trailing he has to go on the attack for real.  Axelrod and Gibbs will be happy to do so.

I doubt the Clinton's will just sit back and take it.  

It is just the opposite, if Clinton loses today (all she has to do to lose is lose California in my mind) and she has to go on the attack and destroy Obama to have any chance.

But if Clinton wins today I think they will stick with their recent tone, hit the issues, and try to go from there.  But the Obama can't I don't think could allow that happen.   Clinton would just play out the game and win.

by dpANDREWS 2008-02-05 10:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

I wish everyone would stop bemoaning a longer primary between clinton and obama.  i think that would be great for us.  let mccain sit on the sidelines while the news focuses on our two very popular candidates.  either one will outraise mccain by a bajillion dollars anyway so the cost of an ongoing primary doesn't hurt us either.

by snaktime 2008-02-05 10:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

I think the primary storyline if the race stays close will be who won more amongst the following states

NJ, CT, MA, MO, AZ, NM and obviously CA. If someone can carry all of them they can claim some momentum if it is split then the one who carries CA has the bragging rights.

For MSM if it is close Obama is the BIG Winner. Eugene Robinson will be the first to say if 6 months ago i said a man named "Hussein" could be the Democratic nominee you would have laughed me out of the building!

by bayareasg 2008-02-05 11:02AM | 0 recs
Wow just cause you wrote a book with Markos....


You have Hillary winning in states like New Mexico and Alaska and Utah where he is ahead...I mean, I know that Bill Clinton was talking about Fairy Tales and all, but is this objective.  From where are you getting this.  Or is this just your Christmas List?    Here is my list ( because at this point I am not sure else I have to lose).  Let's see who is actually closer.  And also by the way, I notice that your lack or really addressing the actual delegate count is further indicative of how clueless you really are.  I say Obama wins in delagates from 25-35 delagtes total?  Put up or shut up...

Obama:  AL, CA, CO, CT, DE, GA, ID, IL, KS, MN, NM, UT, AK

Clinton: AZ, AR, MA, MO, NJ, NY, OK, TN

But this entire conversation is moot because of proportional representation...you KNOW that...so what is your point?

by georgeg1011 2008-02-05 11:03AM | 0 recs
I doubt that Obama will agree

to be on Clinton's ticket.  He will probably decline if he is smart.

by puma 2008-02-05 11:08AM | 0 recs
Re: I doubt that Obama will agree

Why would being on her ticket be dumb?  You think she'll lose the general?  Because if she wins, he'd be VP and set up for a Presidential run at age 54 in 2016.  I think if he loses to Clinton and is offered the VP spot, he'll take it.

by NoahPinto 2008-02-05 11:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

right now the delegate count is

Obama 63
HRC   48

I think if Obama is down by 150 or less at the end of the nite ..he is still alive and kicking.

If, as Jerome suggests that she pulls out to a 250+ lead tonite which would be a 265 delegate swing for HRC tonite which would be big trouble for Obama.

So, Jerome could be right..it is close out there and HRC could sweep most states and get that 265+ delegate flip.. lets hope he does better.

by hawkjt 2008-02-05 11:11AM | 0 recs
Delegates are determined by districts

As a result, I doubt there will be more than 200 delegate difference between them even if HRC wins the popular votes in these states.

by puma 2008-02-05 11:15AM | 0 recs
my optimistic take

(in order of certainty for each candidate, like in ESPN's bowl predictions contests):

Clinton: NY, AR, OK, TN, NM, AZ, MA, NJ, CT, MO, CA

Obama: IL, GA, ID, UT, AK, KS, CO, ND, AL, MN, DE

The media will drop its horserace metaphor and pick up a boxing one, calling Super Tuesday a "Main Event Showdown that ends in a split decision." However, they may show a coastal bias and make a big deal about California, which will be a very close contest  in which Clinton emerges with momentum as the popular vote winner but not with much of an edge in the delegate count.

Overall, for the day, I say Clinton emerges with a margin of +50 pledged delegates.

by Max Fletcher 2008-02-05 11:13AM | 0 recs
and...

Obama in Samoa and Democrats Abroad

by Max Fletcher 2008-02-05 11:15AM | 0 recs
Re: my optimistic take

If what Bowers and Stoller were saying about yesterday, Delegate COunt has replaced winning states in the media.  THe closer Obama is the better off for him.  

by yitbos96bb 2008-02-05 11:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread
I must say that I'm disappointed with your
"reporting."  Looks like your "analysis" is spin that comes directly from the Clinton campaign.  I'm guessing you will be surprised when the state outcome line-up becomes final this evening . . .
by tomthroop 2008-02-05 11:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

And who the heck are you, "Thomas"?  You signed up a few minutes ago for the first time on this blog to write how "disappointed" In Jerome Armstrong you are?  

by georgep 2008-02-05 12:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

Obama---CA, GA, IL, AL, CT, KS, MN, UT, ND, CO, ID, AK, DE

Clinton---NY, NJ, MA, MO, NM, AZ, OK, AR, TN

Narrow delegate advantage to Obama (around 50)

by wasder 2008-02-05 11:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

I'll throw my prediction:

Clinton: CA, NY, NJ, MA, TN, AZ, CT, AR, OK, DE

Obama: IL, GA, MN, CO, KS, ID, ND, MO, UT, AK, NM, AL

I think Cali, Alabama, MN, CO, MO, DE, CT and AZ will all be within 5 points.  NJ, DE, NM and in an surprise, MA will be within 10 points.

Hillary leaves the night with a 100 pledged delegate lead.

by yitbos96bb 2008-02-05 11:21AM | 0 recs
You should read your facebook mail : )

Obama will clean up in Alaska.

Clinton: CA, NY, NJ, MO, AZ, CT, AR, OK, NM, DE, UT

Obama: IL, GA, MN, CO, KS, ID, ND, AK, TN, MA, AL

by Robert P 2008-02-05 11:22AM | 0 recs
i will eat my keyboard if HRC/BHO on ticket

No way. She would never agree to it and it wouldn't make any sense. He will never agree to it because 1) he would be ignored 2) I really believe they dislike each other and 3) would be a bit hypocritical.

by highgrade 2008-02-05 11:28AM | 0 recs
Re: i will eat my keyboard if HRC/BHO on ticket

If Reagan can pick Bush after "voodoo economics" and Kerry pick Edwards after Kerry's Edwards-in-diapers comment, I don't think Clinton couldn't pick Obama.

I'm not saying she should or would, just saying it's possible, and would help with fundraising, young voters and black support.

by NoahPinto 2008-02-05 11:41AM | 0 recs
Re: prediction

The Clinton campaign must be worried because they are proposing one debate a week up to March 4th

You only do that if you fear the results tonight.

I wonder what their internal poll's are telling them.

She also stated that this AM.

Believe me if they were 150 to 200 delegate lead as projected by Jerome after tonight, then they would not be proposing a debate a week.

by BDM 2008-02-05 11:44AM | 0 recs
Agree

It will be close in many states that HRC led handily in only a few weeks ago. The suggestion of all those debates worries me. I think they are getting internal polling that looks bad.

But we'll know for sure in a few hours. If MA and CT go for Obama, and it certainly looks as if they may, Clinton will be the one having to fight to hang on.

by Coral 2008-02-05 12:07PM | 0 recs
My Predictions

It's hard to be nonbiased since I hope Obama wins, but here goes...

Obama:AL,CT,GA,IL,ND,AK,CO,ID,KS,MN,NJ,U T
Clinton: AZ,CA,MA,MO,NM,TN,AR,DE,NY,OK

American's abroad and Samoa I'm going with Obama.

I only picked NJ for Obama since I'm from NJ and the nonscientific poll I did of the 3 voting members of my family shows Obama with a 100% lead, which sounds pretty insurmountable to me.

by NoahPinto 2008-02-05 11:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

You really think Clinton's going to take Utah and Alaska?

Alaska maybe, but the only poll out in Utah has Obama up by like 20 or 30 points.

by Drummond 2008-02-05 12:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

I just guessed on those, I think it doesn't really matter much in the delegate sense.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-02-05 01:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

This should be fun:

Clinton: CA, NY, NJ, MA, MO, TN, AZ, CT, AL, AR, OK, NM, MN, DE, CO, UT

Obama: IL, GA, KS, ID, ND, AK

by georgep 2008-02-05 12:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

I'm going to really go out on a limb:

Obama IL,GA,ID and ND

And Clinton getting +200

Basically I see a mini NH repeat

by Judeling 2008-02-05 12:28PM | 0 recs
Intrade sez...

Obama:  AL, CA, CO, GA, ID, IL, KS, MN, ND--Alaska is a tossup.

HIllary gets the rest.

by mikelow1885 2008-02-05 12:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

Clinton: CA, NY, NJ, MA, MO, TN, AZ, CT, AL, AR, OK, NM, DE,

Obama: IL, GA, MN, CO, KS, ID, ND, UT, AK

I think a lot of these states are going to nailbiters though. The only 20+ point blowouts I expect are NY, OK, and AR for Clinton, and IL and GA for Obama.

by Christopher Lib 2008-02-05 12:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

I believe Obama has an excellent chance of taking NJ tonight. I voted for him, after switching from Edwards when he dropped out of the race. My best friend texted me today to let me know he had also voted for Obama, after being undecided and leaning Clinton as late as last night. He decided for Obama because of the perception that Obama will be McCain and Hillary will not. I agree. Turnout was heavy in my precinct today, and I voted around 4:00 p.m. before the evening rush to vote before the polls close at 8:00.

Everytime I see NJ in the Clinton column, I laugh because I have spoken to only one person who decided late to vote for her. I think a surprise may be in the offing here. Will make for an interesting evening, I think.

by owlskinner 2008-02-05 01:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

Obama gets Alabama, Alaska, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Kansas, North Dakota, Utah,

Clinton gets Arkansas, Arizona, California, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Missouri, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oklahoma, Tennessee,

which would be 11 to 11 in states.  Delegates I'd guess a slight Clinton advantage given the bigger size of her states although she will only win a couple barely including California.

I canvased all weekend and today in Atlanta, Georgia by the way.  I wish I had some insight, but I don't.  The african americans are incredibly charged here, but who knows.

by snaktime 2008-02-05 01:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Feb 5th Prediction Thread

That's a bit too optimistic for Clinton. Seeing the recent CNN exit poll, I would say Obama has the edge.

by RJEvans 2008-02-05 01:09PM | 0 recs

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