You understand that if Obama does the sit the FL and MI delegates, he would have disenfranchised almost TWO MILLION voters, so he could claim victory?

Who is cleaner here?

Yeah, how dirty it is the let the voices of over 1.5 million Americans be heard.  The idea is just sickening, especially in a democracy.

By staging a victory party in Florida's Primary, once again the Clintons give another slap in the face to the Democratic Party and prove that they think they are above the law, that they do not have to follow the rules laid down by others, the Democratic National Committee,  or that they can change the way the game is played in mid-stream.  Hillary Clinton spoke at the staged victory party and called it "a robust election" yet she was the only one at the party.  It is this kind of behavior and attitudes which will show, the measure of their true future worth, and how they will govern.  It was a humorous and sad spectacle to witness, as they tried to dupe the people into thinking that black is white, when there really was no contest and the Edwards and Obama people had not been on the ground, so there was actually no fair playing ground.  BUT WHO WANTS TO PLAY FAIR?   And the outrage of it all is that the media was complicit in this charade by televising it as if there had been a fair victory or victory at all!

Thomas Jefferson said the following:  "Our citizens may be deceived for awhile, and have been deceived; but as long as the presses can be protected, we may trust to them for light."   Thomas Jefferson knew the necessity of  a press that is free to investigate and criticize the government -- "that it was  absolutely essential in a nation that practices self-government and is therefore dependent on an educated and enlightened citizenry.   On the other hand, newspapers too often take advantage of their freedom and publish lies and scurrilous gossip that could only deceive and mislead the people."  ARE THERE NO MORAL GIANTS IN THE MEDIA ANYMORE?

These kind of tactics spit in the face of society's laws set up for itself, they divide and seem to be devoid of a conscience.  As we move forward the newer politicians will be concerned about the whole, while the old-party politicians will concerned about the separative self, the ego!   Martin Luther King taught  "Vanity asks the question - is it popular? Conscience asks the question - is it right?"   This behavior is an example of separative and divisive behavior and are old time party politics,  it should be a thing of the past  and should be no part of going forward into the 21st Century as we move towards cleaner air, cleaner water, cleaner politics, towards a more holistic way of living.  America is in decay -- our bridges, our infrastructure, our schools, our politicians, our media, our whole way of life are in decay.  We need strong leaders, honest and forthright, full of hope and substance, devoid of ego, as we have much work to do!

The leaders we elect to office should be people of high moral character, honest and forthright.  Politics must become the highest, sacred function.  We need many political and global saints.  Then government will become a sacred duty, a respect for humanity and no longer the object of narrow humans wills, whims, interests, gains and ambitions.

I understand the sentiment, but you cannot change the rules once the game has started. Look GOTV efforts have been huge in every state that has voted so far without GOTV in FL, we really don't know how to score it. A 15-20 percent win is about what one would expect without the candidates participating. That said she probably would have won FL anyway, but it would probably have been on the order of NV or NH. You just cannot seat them now, it makes no sense.

I love your trust in Rassmussen

i'm not too surprised by that.  when was that poll taken?  if there's a significant impact from the ted kennedy, patrick kennedy endorsement, it's going to come up north.  that said, i doubt it influences massachusetts from the little i know about mass politics.

Actually, FL was polled much more aggressively and there was no change. There were also two national tracking polls (Rasmussen and Gallup) and they showed no change.

With proportional delegate counting, you are going to need blowouts to get ahead.  Obama had SC, (11 more delegates).  Next Tuesday, HRC will have NY, NJ, CA, OK, AR, etc.  Obama will have IL and what?  Close wins are draws.

We know Connecticut is a bell weather of where Democrats really want to model their elections on.

My belief is not based on mojo or anything like that. It's based on the dimensions of the relative coalitions. To me Clintons came in uncannily as before just as did Obama's. Edwards did a better than I expected and that probably pulled Clinton down maybe three or four points and Obama one or two. I agree the debate and campaining and gotv is important but we should keep debates in perspective. Did anyone ever turn in  a more miserable debate performance in 04 than Dubya?    

...He's eligible for delegates himself.

33% of Florida Democratic voters expressed that they wanted delegates pledged to Obama to represent them at the Democratic National Convention.

How do you tell the 33% of Florida Democrats, who supported Obama, that they don't deserve representation in Denver.

o you mean Obama's ads. Well we'll give him a mulligan on those.

so are Edwards, Obama, and Clinton all going to be going to every single state voting on February 5th?  Should the delegates not count for states they do not campaign with that day and after the 5th?  The voters of Florida are not idiots, they have been following these candidates just as the rest of us have been.

Actually, she didn't say that she would, but if she does, it will be to ensure that the voters in Florida are not disenfranchised.  What the hell is it with Democrats who want to strip voters of their right to have their votes counted, especially in Florida?!?

Everyone in the media hates the Clintons, but Matthews really does have a serious issue with women.  I'm not just being flip here.

No, I don't think that Matthews liked the Clintons even before that. You have to remember that Matthews was once a Carter employee and the Carters and the Clintons haven't gotten along b/c Clinton blames Carter for his Ark gubernatorial loss in 1980. If you notice the Carter people  like Brezinski(sp) have a lot of animus towards the Clintons. I don't think that's an accident. The Carter machine was replaced by the Clinton machine and Chris was part of that Carter machine....

Exactly, the reason Bush won in 2000 was because of Florida, because the votes of Floridians were not counted accurately.  And now our own party is willing to do the same thing and in same state that gave Bush a victory due to voter disenfranchisement, a crucial swing state we need if we want to win in November.  the DNC is a joke, their punishment was far too harsh, they are blatantly pro-Obama.  and the way the pro-Obama media thinks they can hijack this election is ridiculous.  Everything is being done to discount the votes of real Americans in these primaries.

The real question is why people are clamboring for the votes to be counted after the fact.  Where was the outrage when this policy was announced so many months ago?  It isn't like this was a surprise.  

I bet he is. They did everything they could to limit the narrative. She'll be on all the morning shows tomorrow.

Clinton won his round but it's only the 4the inning.

agreed.  this is the type of thing that can engender support for hillary.  she's fighting for the people.  i think psychologically, this may allow her to make headway against the whole "obama is the people's choice" if she plays it right.  at the end, if this is simply planning for the ge, that's wise as well.

Exactly.

Clinton even got more votes than McCain.  This will be remembered fondly by Florida Dems and independents who are very passionate about having their vote counted.  I wonder why that is...

And this is exactly why this is a losing strategy for Obama.  He might gain some short term points (we will see) but you can't treat a whole state like "lepers" and taunt them on how their votes don't count, and not expect it to bite you later on.

And before folks freak about about "lepers," that is how Adam Smith, the political editor of Florida's largest newspaper, the St. Pete Times, described how Obama and his campaign were treating Florida voters.

The first thing that will be decided at the convention is if the FL and MI delegaty can sit.

The other delegates get to vote on this.

The candidates control the delegates, hence the delegates decide who can sit. If they don't sit them they are disenfranchising 2 million voters for their benefit, it's a simple as that.

at the state level. Senate - Rep 26, Dem 14
House - Rep. 79, Dem 41

The decision to move the primary forward was a Republican decision.  Yet it is the Democratic voters who are being completely disenfranchised. The Republicans are seating half of the delegates.

you do know that the date was set by the legislature through a statute (controlled by republicans) and signed into law by a Republican governor right?

You know that in that process, the Repugs knew that florida would be stripped of all the delegates and Repugs would only be stripped of half.

You do know that after they moved, and FL was stripped, the Repugs have been campaigning in FL saying how the dems are ignoring FL, giving them a 6 month head start in campaigning in the Sunshine state.

YOU ALSO know that Repugs are trying to get an anti gay marriage amendment on in FL, like they did in Ohio in 2004, to try to shore up FL in the repug column again in 2008-

You do know that this isnt about Obama, or Clinton right now, but about the GE in November.

Oh wait, obviously you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

I'm glad you live in a world of denial and think Obama is going to come out the winner on February 5th, can't wait until next Tuesday.

Florida  isn't a given.  I worry about Michigan.

It will only matter if he personally and publicly makes a fuss; which he probably won't.

Here is what will happen if he wins (without Fl and MI,) he will never say a word about it before or during the convention. Afterwards he will make the rounds with all of the party people in both of those states and spend a lot of time there (he would have to in Florida anyway; so no real loss there.) He will make it a point that he wants to see the DNC rules changed so that the primary process is more fair and he will ultimately win over the Dems in those states.

I love the way everyone here thinks it would be a big deal. I'd be willing to bet that at least 50% of dem voters in each state don't really pay attention to the delegate situation and of those that do only a very small percentage will actually hold it against a candidate. It will be possible to make up with those people.

I have to say, as a Clinton supporter, that I am also glad.

The last time they did stuff like this Clinton's support among women increased by a large margin.

percentages

at 91%, cnn has

hillary 50
obama 33
edwards 14
kucinich 1

a 33 to 50 defeat for Obama is a victory?  HOW?  None of the candidates campaigned in Florida, she had no advantage, if anybody had the advantage it was Obama who ran ads.

Looks like Hillary will be kept under 50%

Under 50? the last time I looked 50 was 50 and in any case there's another about 8% to go. It's going to end up at around fifty. I'm surprised that Obama fans thought 33% was impressive. Given all the hype of the past 48 hours it was fairly poor. The guy who surprised me is Edwards. I thought he'd be struggling to break 10. Back to the drawing board on my calcs.

It's the size of the turnout not the size of her margin that caused the change in tone. It was double last times for godsake in the fourth most populous state in the union. Denying reality becomes impossible at some point.

Then he'll be forced into a Kerry like answer.

I don't think that's a useful strategy now that FL is over.  Voters in CA really don't care if Florida has delegates or not.

This would be a terrible move for her to make in terms of the GE and the party. The only meaningful effect it would have is giving the Republicans a sound bite to use against Obama in November.

Initially they thought they could dismiss it through low turnout but as everyone else was covering they were forced to as well (they can't afford to lose electoral ratings before super tuesday).

A friend at MSNBC told me they decided to do the interview / carry her speech at the last minute.

Did Bill go over the line?  Probably.  As a HRC supporter, I'd be the first to say that.  That said, who brought race up?  It certainly wasn't HRC.  I'd have to dig up the exact quote, but I'm fairly certain that it was Obama that brought up the issue of race and trying to win the black vote.  Again, not trying to say that Bill was right.  I think President Clinton crossed the line in some of his comments.  Still ... from what I recall, the issue of race, the reason it was made an open issue was brought up by Obama.

As for Florida/delegates, I won't get into the whole thing, because certainly, you seem pretty set on your viewpoints.  I will say that, in the end, I doubt it's HRC that decides if they are seated, but rather the Florida Dems.  They'll have to reach out to the DNC, including the Obama supporters down there.  

All I'll say is the same thing I've posted in this thread and elsewhere.  If Obama wins the nomination, I'll congratulate him and be excited to vote for him, and I hope he'll take a moment to thank Hillary for saving the Democrats asses in Florida by simply showing up.  I think too often people forget the psychological impact of small things like that.  Certainly, she probably had her own motivations for showing up, but I do honestly believe that, at the end of the day, her little thing tonight will have helped the nominee, whoever it may be.

Moreso than Obama right now.  I respect both candidates, and I'll support the nominee.  But I think overall, she offers a more progressive plank than Obama.