Open Thread

by Todd Beeton, Fri Sep 21, 2007 at 05:18:54 PM EDT

I think I can safely say Cenk Uygur of The Young Turks speaks for most of us when he rants about the offensive absurdity of the senate condemning the MoveOn ad yesterday.

You've probably received your MoveOn e-mail but just to reiterate, they're upping their fundraising goal to $1 million to fight back.

By midnight, over 12,000 people had donated $500,000--more than we've raised any day this year--for our new ad calling out the Republicans who blocked adequate rest for troops headed back to Iraq.

The message from MoveOn members was loud and clear: Don't back down. Take the fight back to the issues that matter.

So today we're shooting for a very ambitious goal: Reach $1 million so we can dramatically expand the campaign we launched yesterday going after politicians who support this awful war.

Sign their statement. Donate to the campaign.

What else is up tonight?

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42 Comments

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Ads don't kill people, wars kill people
From Bill Richardson's blog on Huffington Post today:
Two days ago the Senate had a chance to help get more of our soldiers home for longer periods of time -- but the measure failed. Yesterday they had a chance to set a timeline to start withdrawing troops -- but that failed too. And today, another measure that would've required a withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq failed. Three chances to make a difference, lost. But instead of continuing to push on the most important issue facing our country right now, yesterday Congress spent their time debating and condemning a newspaper ad by an anti-war group. Let's get some perspective here -- ads don't kill people -- wars kill people. And it is long past time to end this war.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gov-bill-r ichardson/ads-dont-kill-people-wa_b_6538 4.html
by Stephen Cassidy 2007-09-21 05:24PM | 0 recs
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Good reason to donate to Move On

NOT.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-09-21 08:04PM | 0 recs
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Re: Good reason to donate to Move On

But I did, as did many others.

I feel about the stupid "ad" as Wes Clark does. It is a distraction. Other then that, I will side with moveOn ANY day before I agree with the right wing spin machine that just wants to ignore FACTS.

This is much like the Dan Rather/CBS mess. Everyone fixated on the damn memo and not the substance and the facts, which are real.

by kevin22262 2007-09-21 11:17PM | 0 recs
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Re: Good reason to donate to Move On

That is not a valid reason to donate to Move On.  Donating to Move On only helps the spin machine which you despise.  As is perfectly clear, the Petraeus ad was an early Christmas gift for the GOP.

by realistic democrat 2007-09-22 06:03AM | 0 recs
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Re: Good reason to donate to Move On

I disagree. The petraeus ad reaction is a joke. If this is what the repugs will use as a campaign tactic, they will look like idiots.

What is a gift to the repugs is this stupid vote in the Senate. That was a cave to the righties.

by kevin22262 2007-09-22 09:24AM | 0 recs
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Re: Good reason to donate to Move On

The GOP has gone overboard in their reaction yet the ad allowed the GOP to go on the offense in the war debate, precisely where they shouldn't be.  Without the ad, the GOP would still be on their heels.

It was a strategic blunder of the first degree.

by realistic democrat 2007-09-22 10:24AM | 0 recs
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Re: Good reason to donate to Move On

Screw it.

Patraeus is cooking the books just to keep Bush's Vanity War going for another year and a half, no matter the cost to our country or our military.

He is betraying America in my book.

by Bush Bites 2007-09-22 11:44AM | 0 recs
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Hey

Mind explaining WHY you oned my comment to mr. big tent?

Am I a troll? Because that IS what the one stands for.

by kevin22262 2007-09-22 05:23PM | 0 recs
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Re: Hey

WTF is wrong with you?

I never rated you at all? While you have run around insulting me.

Get a fucking grip.

Move On is not worth all this.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-09-22 07:21PM | 0 recs
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WTF?

Why don't you read and see who I was responding to. I was NOT responding to you. Unless that other name is also you.

About the insults, have you ever actually read some of the stuff you write?

MoveOn.. the AD is not worth this. You are right, it is a distraction so why have you been all over this blog putting down MoveOn? MoveOn the org. and what they do is worth fighting for.

This is not about the AD but about the righties reaction to it and the Democrats in congress bending over to the repugs on this.

This is not much different from what o'liely and the righties tried doing to Dkos.

by kevin22262 2007-09-23 09:26AM | 0 recs
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Re: WTF?

You referenced Big Tent an dinsulted me throughout.

My beef with Move On long predates this idiotic ad.

Learn how Move On cvapitulated on Iraq this year and see how riduclous this rally for Move On is.

You have  been totally playerd by Move On. And the sad thing is you have no fucking clue that you have been played.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-09-23 03:16PM | 0 recs
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Re: WTF?

Oh my god...
Once again, was I responding to you? The answer is no.
...
Here is me: (in a response to someone else, not you)

"Mind explaining WHY you oned my comment to mr. big tent?

Am I a troll? Because that IS what the one stands for."
...
Here is you: (in a response to my response to someone else)

"WTF is wrong with you?

I never rated you at all? While you have run around insulting me.

Get a fucking grip.

Move On is not worth all this."
...
Me get a grip? People like me are making a big deal out of the MoveOn thing? People like me are making a big deal out of the Senate's response to a frickin AD. Also to people like you who would tear down MoveOn because of a frickin AD.

I feel like Wes Clark on this. It was a distraction and a "tacticle error" but I do not damn MoveOn for this.
The more the righties and people who call themselves liberals or progressives (but don't act it) bash MoveOn, the more it looks like the attack on Dkos or Dan Rather and CBS.

But I keep forgetting that You Do know everything.

So sorry.

by kevin22262 2007-09-23 10:07PM | 0 recs
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Betray Us

That was a fact?

Shakes head.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-09-22 08:05AM | 0 recs
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Re: Betray Us

stay in your little "big tent world".

by kevin22262 2007-09-22 09:25AM | 0 recs
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Vote for: none of the above

Folks we have 14 more months of trying to cope with this pathetic bunch of politicians--all of em'!

SNL humor has got me through these past years-so pour out your favorite bits.  It will help!

http://www.unoriginal.co.uk/footage203_6 .html

by hazmaq 2007-09-21 06:32PM | 0 recs
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Re: Open Thread

No, he does not speak for me.  

by truthteller2007 2007-09-21 07:09PM | 0 recs
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Re: Open Thread

good for you.

Don;t follow the lemmings of the Netroots on this.

This is an awful post, a terrible video and a terrible idea.

Our new sacred cow Move On.

Just awful.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-09-21 08:03PM | 0 recs
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um, why?

by jgarcia 2007-09-21 08:51PM | 0 recs
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Re: Open Thread

I agree completely with you on this BTD.

by Satya 2007-09-21 10:05PM | 0 recs
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Yes he does!

I wonder what Wes Clark Jr. has to say. He is a friend of Cenk's.

by kevin22262 2007-09-21 07:25PM | 0 recs
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Re: Yes he does!

Clark SENIOR criticized Move On.

Does not speak for General Wes Clark.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-09-21 08:05PM | 0 recs
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Clark with Matt Stoller.

If you would like to see what Wes Clark said read Matt Stoller's interview with him.
http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId =1467

Here is a taste:

Matt Stoller:  You recently called the Moveon ad criticizing Petraeus a 'big mistake'.  Why is it a big mistake?

Wes Clark: Because it distracted attention from focusing on the failures of the policy and let the other side play a game of personal attack again and you know sort of outrage at that.  That's a mistake.  It distracted us from the dialogue we needed.

Matt Stoller:  So your argument is...

Wes Clark: It gave something that Republicans could all agree on.

MS: So your argument is not that it was inaccurate in any way.

Wes Clark: No, I'd say it was a mistake tactically.

much more at the link

Here is the link:
http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId =1467

by kevin22262 2007-09-21 11:12PM | 0 recs
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Why no response?

Why no response to what Wes Clark said?

by kevin22262 2007-09-22 09:36AM | 0 recs
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Re: Yes he does!

Also, I did not ask what SENIOR said or thought. I asked about JR.

by kevin22262 2007-09-22 09:37AM | 0 recs
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Re: Open Thread

I have and I did.

by cmpnwtr 2007-09-21 07:53PM | 0 recs
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Speaks not at all for me

Move On fucked up. Move On has fucked up on Iraq all year.

Mmove On should not get a dime for their stupidity.

And that seems to be the reaction of the "Netroots."

What a clown show the Netroots has become.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-09-21 08:02PM | 0 recs
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What a statement...

Sometimes you are so full of yourself.

by kevin22262 2007-09-21 11:13PM | 0 recs
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Full of myself

unlike the Netroots and Move On who decided the MoveOn vote was what mattered last week.

Irony drips.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-09-22 08:02AM | 0 recs
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Re: Full of myself

I understand what you say but you seem to think that you know best all the time. It is really annoying.

by kevin22262 2007-09-22 09:21AM | 0 recs
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Re: Full of myself

Sort of like the Netroots is. For crissakes.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-09-23 03:17PM | 0 recs
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Re: Open Thread

He makes a good point about right wingers bashing military officials when it's convenient. For the most part though.. he's not really speaking for me either. Defending the MoveOn advertisement is a waste of energy. Let it go please.

by BobbyNYC 2007-09-21 08:05PM | 0 recs
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Thank you

This MoveOn fixation is truly making a mockery of the Netroots.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-09-21 08:06PM | 0 recs
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Re: Thank you

The AD fixation is what is making a mockery of the media, the politicians and part of the netroots like ... hmmmm... YOU.

by kevin22262 2007-09-22 09:39AM | 0 recs
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Re: Thank you

Sure. It is me that is fixated on it. Riiiight.

by Big Tent Democrat 2007-09-23 03:17PM | 0 recs
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Re: Open Thread

Cenk is not very articulate.  And I do not believe he makes the talking points handed to him very compelling.  The show is stupid, and the attempt to appear to be an outsider falls flat on its face when one realizes how connected he is to the political and netroots power structures.  

The real battle includes the other amendments, but no one paid attention, as everyone was concered about MoveOn.  And the Democrats did not handle this well either.

The MoveOn ad is great, and I agree with it.  But I do not think everyone should throw money at MoveOn in retaliation.  Fine, they can post more ads in newspapers and online, but for what goal?  Will MoveOn elect better candidates, or will they elect just more of the same candidates who voted against them when they needed them?

Cenk is a joke, in my opinion, and the antiwar movement is disorganized.  No  real collective action has been orchestrated, and no one agrees on the best strategy to force Congress to end this war.  Throwing money at MoveOn will not solve this problem, as the problem is the inability of the Left to mobilize a coherent counterpoint to the Bush administration.  Until the latter occurs, all attempts to end the war will fail.  

The Left needs to regroup and reorganize, not throw money at organizations that have failed to deliver what they promised.  And the Left should not allow itself to be manipulated by those who receive money from all those sources that have failed us again and again.

This is why I agree with BTD's sentiment, although I will have to visit his blog in order to understand his perspective.  But this is where I stand.

They organized for Jena.  Where is the antiwar Left's organization?  Or is this just a tug of war between various egos who care more about themselves than ending this farce in Iraq?

by truthteller2007 2007-09-21 09:24PM | 0 recs
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Re: Open Thread

great post.

Lately I'm getting the feeling that some in the so-called "netroots" are really all about ego and maybe even money.

As a dedicated financial supporter of MoveOn, I often wonder what some of the salaries are of the top people in that group like Pariser.

by jgarcia 2007-09-21 09:39PM | 0 recs
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Re: Open Thread

I'm glad the folks here are making more sense than at dKos... Unfortunately, now that MoveOn's gotten the attention it so craved, w'ere going to see more stupidity from them in the future.  Their ad campaigns have been lousy since their beginnings 10 years ago.  They appeal well to the extreme left of American society, but have absolutely zero effect on independents...  They have never successfully moved public opinion, not in 1998 for Bill Clinton, not in 2000 for Al Gore, certainly not in 2004 for Kerry, and not now...

Many of our netroots are so dissolussioned that they are inventing their own reality... forgetting that we have, essentially, a minority in the Senate.  They feel that the minority should somehow, magically, become the supermajority necessary to end the war.

Thanks,

Mike

by lordmikethegreat 2007-09-22 05:02AM | 0 recs
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Re: Open Thread

Good point, it's the most money they've made in a long time. The better focus is on increasing the majority in the near-term (through 2010), some people have no patience or timing, but Cenk is making sense about going after the "boys club" in DC>

by Jerome Armstrong 2007-09-22 07:46PM | 0 recs
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Re: Open Thread

Isn't this the guy who's suing Stephen Colbert?

by cmangin 2007-09-22 08:00AM | 0 recs
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MoveOn Ad: a Rorschach test


Spill some ink on a page of newsprint and show it to a lot of people.  Some will see a vase, others a vagina.  There's no point arguing about what the inkblot "really" means.  All you learn from the exercise is how many people are fixated on sex, and how many on crockery.

The MoveOn ad was important for what it reveals about the American public:  a fair number of us have degenerated to the point of worshipping the military; and another substantial fraction of us think it's a tactical mistake to tweak the worshippers.  The latter group are not as stupid as the former, but they are too clever by half.

The 2008 elections will be decided on a visceral level.  They will be a contest between those who believe in their guts that generals are above reproach, that anything the military does is ipso facto noble service to America, that national greatness is to be measured by military might -- and those who know a crock when they see it.

-- TP

by Rethymniotis 2007-09-22 11:03AM | 0 recs
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Re: Open Thread

He's right about the gutless Dems too.

If you don't agree with the ad, just make yourself scarce during the vote.

But don't vote in favor of a GOP talking point.

That was a new low.

by Bush Bites 2007-09-22 11:42AM | 0 recs
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Re: Open Thread

Cenk rocked.

by Jerome Armstrong 2007-09-22 07:42PM | 0 recs

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