Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thread

by Todd Beeton, Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 12:09:27 AM EDT

Sam Waterston, who is getting a promotion to DA on Law And Order next season thanks to Fred Thompson's run for president (or whatever,) appeared on Hardball on Tuesday to once again push this whole Unity 08 idea, that two random people will be chosen by folks on the internet, regardless of party, and it will be some sort of non-partisan love fest. Have you heard, partisanship is bad, because Sam Waterston says so. In fact, it's so bad that it led us right into Iraq.

Waterston:

Here's the thing about Iraq that I think is really important to say and that is that the Iraq situation that we are in now is a direct outgrowth of this kind of winner take all head to head take no prisoners politics that we've been having and that if there had been more attention to consensus before we went in we might not be in this pickle now.

It boggles the mind. Well, credit where credit is due, Chris Matthews did not let that go and called Waterston out on his ridiculous claim, and really laid bare the biggest flaw in the argument of these advocates for bi-partisanship: look what it's gotten us.

Matthews:

But didn't we have a lot, we had Hillary and John Kerry and Joe Biden and John Edwards all voted to authorize the war, all these Democrats trooped over across the aisle and backed a Republican president when he told us we had to go to war with a country that hadn't attacked us. If the system is broken, isn't it broken because there's too much consensus?

Nice.

Tags: Chris Matthews, Open Thread, Unity 08 (all tags)

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Asshole

I used to live in Canaan Connecticut, right next to Sam Waterston. Everybody knows he is a political asshole. No other term is applicable. He has a fancy house, and lots of money, but he doesn't have the political sophistication of a guinea pig.

by blues 2007-07-25 01:39AM | 0 recs

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Re: Asshole

But he played the role of Lincoln on Broadway a few years ago. That makes him as qualified as many who claim to be pundits.

by hawkseye 2007-07-25 06:16AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

You can discount this man if you want, but not Unity08. The longer we wait to get anything accomplished, whether it's the war, health care, immigration, ethics, Impeachment, whatever, the more of am impetus there will be for a third party to emerge.

Never mind that it's the Republicans who are obstructing. I've actually been waiting for this to happen. If our leaders continue on their present course, bickering back and forth with no progress on any major issue we face today, the more backlash there will be against both parties.

So, not only will the Republicans lose, Democrats lose as well. This is not necessarily a bad thing if you think about it. "Competition" in any market is good, even politics.

by Keithb7862 2007-07-25 03:57AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

Maybe it's an impetus for a party to the left of Democrats, but Unity08 is a center-right construction, which has no interest in working on any of those issues.

Has there ever been an election that wasn't touted as the perfect opportunity for a third party to finally emerge? Funny how it keeps being predicted, but never happens...

by fwiffo 2007-07-25 05:47AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

Sorry. Even if a miracle were to occur, and Republicans support a measure the Democrats support, Bush will veto.

I'm not agreeing to half an ass-kicking from people who are consistently wrong on every issue.

I'd rather have stalemate than some freakishly hybrid Island of Dr. Moreau legislation that attempts to balance, say, universal health care with massive profits for Billy Tauzin.

Over the last decade, Republicans have been wrong. on. every. issue.

Many dems have been wrong as well, but that doesn't make sticking the two together some magic wand. We'll have reams of crappy national policy, like increased food stamp funding, but only if they can do 100 push ups. Great.

by MasonMcD 2007-07-25 05:49AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

So, not only will the Republicans lose, Democrats lose as well.

And how does that work, exactly? Sheep get elected to national office?

National politics is a zero sum game. It's not going to fill up with Liebermans. Fight the good fight, stop arguing for not arguing, or get out of the way.

by MasonMcD 2007-07-25 05:53AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

Notice the approval rating for Congress recently? Did you notice the results of the special election in Georgia this month? Which of the two Republicans won? Hmmm? Well, the recount isn't over and the winner isn't official yet . . . but if upheld . . . this is a CLEAR MESSAGE that "politics as usual" is being rejected.

Again, take the low approval for Congress today, add the repudiation of Georgia's "inside" candidate just this month . . . project this nationally in '08 . . . and you can see how this works.

If we don't get out of Iraq, if we don't pass meaningful legislation, if we continue the way we have these past six or seven months . . . people may toss both parties, not just Republicans.

Leiberman was an aberration. Look for more Venturas and Green Party candidates to do well.

by Keithb7862 2007-07-25 06:44AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

Leiberman was an aberration. Look for more Venturas and Green Party candidates to do well.

No. The dem activists are pretty fired up. It's the republicans and independents who won't show up.

I'm in GA. I've never seen so much apathy with Republicans in a long time.

by MasonMcD 2007-07-25 06:55AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

You would know. To quote from Martha Stewart . . . Republican apathy is "a good thing" . . .

But I doubt if Independents will forgo the election. Everyone's fighting to win this non-affiliated group over.

You know my feeling? We've been hearing about the death knell of the Republican party for quite a while now. Are we not already seeing this?

IF a third party were to emerge . . . this may just be the final nail in the coffin. Who knows? Would be interesting, though.

by Keithb7862 2007-07-25 07:09AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

"This is not necessarily a bad thing if you think about it. "Competition" in any market is good, even politics."

That is a great point. Third parties raise, reframe, and push issues. Breaking up the duopoly is healthy for democracy.

by justinh 2007-07-25 06:00AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

Third parties in elections have the exact opposite effect of competition in a market because of the majority-rule winner-take-all nature of elections. A third party hurts the major party candidate most similar to the third party candidate and helps the least similar candidate preferred by the smaller number of people. In other words, we get Florida 2000.

Unless we have a radical overhaul of how we handle elections (e.g. proportional representation), basic game theory shows that third parties will always hurt their own cause.

Furthermore, third parties are unnecessary since parties are coalitions.

by fwiffo 2007-07-25 06:36AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

1. "Third parties in elections have the exact opposite effect of competition in a market because of the majority-rule winner-take-all nature of elections. A third party hurts the major party candidate most similar to the third party candidate and helps the least similar candidate preferred by the smaller number of people. In other words, we get Florida 2000."

Actually, based on the "market" analogy, that demonstrates how the market works itself out, BASED ON THE DEMANDS OF THE VOTERS. So, you get Florida 2000 or Clinton 1996. What's the specific objection here?

2. "Unless we have a radical overhaul of how we handle elections (e.g. proportional representation), basic game theory shows that third parties will always hurt their own cause."

Simply not the case. The abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, child labor laws, etc. were all issues pushed by third party campaigns.

3. "Furthermore, third parties are unnecessary since parties are coalitions."

Well, what's the 1)nature of the coalition 2)who is included in the coalition and 3)how effective are they? Why would MORE coalitions be the same as "unnecessary"?

by justinh 2007-07-25 06:50AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

Florida 2000 is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. A left-wing third party candidate ran, and the consequence was the election of a hard-right candidate that was the antithesis of his political views. The effect was the EXACT OPPOSITE of what he intended. Are you saying that Nader voters really wanted George W. Bush to be president?

Furthermore, non-establishment candidates can and do work within the existing coalitions to change the status-quo, that's what primaries are about. Think about Jim Webb or Jon Tester, who both beat the party-preferred establishment candidates in their respective races, then went on to win the general election. If they had run third party campaigns, we'd have had two more conservative Republicans incumbents reelected in 2006.

Some countries have a parliamentary system where multiple parties join together to form a majority government after the election, and sometimes a viable third party can take shape in such a system. However, the only real difference is that coalitions are formed after elections instead of before. So, in our two-party system voters actually have more information when casting their vote (they know which coalition they're voting for).

by fwiffo 2007-07-25 07:05AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

I give no credence at all to Unity '08. It isn't a third party at all. They aren't out there recruiting and developing new candidates that are dissatisfied with their current party or who don't have a party allegiance. What they want is a Democrat and a Republican to run together, as though that's the miracle cure for our ills. The only people they'd get in an effort like that is someone like Joe Lieberman or some other DINO to run with Chuck Hagel. I don't see how that could make things better in America.

I think there are fundamental differences between Democrats and Republicans, leaving Iraq aside. That's why people choose to be in either one party or the other. They tend to have differences about health care, the economy, civil rights, human rights, privacy issues, abortion rights, etc. This isn't true for everyone, of course, but there are substantive differences. How does putting a Dem and a GOP'er together one ticket solve any of our problems?

We're much better offer with a strong Democrat with solid ideas to move America forward. I support Clinton, but I would also have no trouble supporting Obama, Edwards, Richardson, Dodd, etc. These are all people who are committed to the Democratic party and who have excellent ideas about how to out this country back on the right track, as opposed to fools like Lieberman and Republicans who are mired in their culture of corruption and who want an unitary executive.

by Denny Crane 2007-07-25 06:57AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

Y'know, there've been two or three times lately when Tweety has actually asked useful questions and stuff. Maybe hope's not lost for him yet.

Unity '08 IS a joke. There's no market for it right now. Everyone in the world can see that there are two sides right now: Bush and his supporters and enablers, and those working to stop him from doing any more harm. There's no split-the-difference middle.

What stand has Unity '08 taken on Bush and his manifold high crimes and fuckups? None. They're the moral equivalent of Switzerland in WWII: pretty, above the fray, and totally useless.

by RT 2007-07-25 05:23AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

pretty, above the fray, and totally useless.

You forgot fabulously wealthy.

by clarkent 2007-07-25 05:26AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

Yep, that fits too. Good catch!

by RT 2007-07-26 07:36AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

There is going to be a looooooong space between March of 08 and November. Plenty of time for the Press to ask one hundred ten times a day, "Have Americans fallen out of love with (Dem. Candidate)?"

by hawkseye 2007-07-25 06:21AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke

It annoys me that so many people apparently think people choose their party the same way people choose sports teams. I am not a Democrat because I have some weird affinity to donkeys or the color blue. I'm a Democrat because I believe in social justice, protecting the environment, an diplomatic approach to foreign relations (whenever necessary), minority rights, and that government action is sometimes/often necessary when the market fails or does harm.

by TheUnknown285 2007-07-25 06:22AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke

"It annoys me that so many people apparently think people choose their party the same way people choose sports teams."

For "many," it'snot much more complicated than that.

by justinh 2007-07-25 06:25AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

Unity 08 is the STUPIDEST idea I have seen in many years.

by DoIT 2007-07-25 06:31AM | 0 recs

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There Will Be No Third Party

Our 'plurality' system of voting ensures not only a two party situation, but a two candidate situation. Remember 2000 when Ralph Nader tried the third party approach? The Black Hat effect ensued. Effectively, a vote for Nader was a non-vote for Gore. As long as the Black Hat effect exists, you are forced to give your vote to any comparatively reasonable candidate who seems likely to win. This means that if a third candidate is present, your only choice is still between the two you think have the best chance to win.

The Black Hat effect will also occur in any system of ranked voting, since you will always have to give your highest rank vote to one of the two candidates most likely to win. This can only be overcome with the approval voting method, where you can give just one vote to as many candidates as you like. Even this method bears a Gray Hat effect, in that the presence of Black Hat candidates can force you to vote for a likely-to-win Gray Hat.

I have suggested a consecutive runoff method that would provide more choices. In the first runoff, you use approval voting, and the two candidates who get the most votes go on to a second runoff election. At that point there could be no third candidate to act as a spoiler. With such a method, we could have as many parties as we wished.

by blues 2007-07-25 06:53AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

The two-party system certainly has its pros and cons, but Unity08 is just ridiculous. Just because two "poles" exist does not mean that each "pole" is equally illegitimate, and certainly does not mean that the best position is "the center." As has been proven so many times in history, sometimes one side is just right.

However, if Colbert were the party's nominee...

by Jon 2007-07-25 07:24AM | 0 recs

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Being 'above politics'

...or 'pox-on-bothism' is every bit as much a 'brand' or a 'team' as being a Democrat or Republican.

If it weren't, people wouldn't brag about it, or count on it to get them traction in a social setting.

by Davis X Machina 2007-07-25 07:37AM | 0 recs

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Re: Unity 08 Is A Joke Dot Com Late Night Open Thr

Sam Waterston is best suited for, and needs to keep to, selling robot insurance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVnkd7ot_ pw

by notanumber 2007-07-25 09:00AM | 0 recs

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Re: A Joke

Waterston: ...that the Iraq situation that we are in now is a direct outgrowth of this kind of winner take all head to head take no prisoners politics that we've been having...

No, it's a direct outgrowth of letting the neo-conservatives run things.

by piniella 2007-07-25 03:52PM | 0 recs

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I don't buy it

If we are honest, we will admit that Bi-Partisanship played no role in what caused Democrats to vote for this war, but COWARDICE . The Democrats who voted for this , were not trying to find a bi-partisan approach, they were scared and intimidated by the Republicans into believing that if they voted against it, they would lose their elections. They knew better and they did not seek bi-partisanship. They simply walked across the aisle, bent over and cried "uncle". We the Democratic Constituency, also need to stop sending fake DINOs to Washington because we are more concerned with picking up a seat then we are having Progressive representation. Unfortunately, our motto has morphed into; "Yeah. We picked up that seat". Call it was it really is;

COWARDICE!

Have a great evening everyone.

by BlueDiamond 2007-07-25 05:54PM | 0 recs