New Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina Polls

ARG has some new numbers. For every state, the polls were taken from May 23-26, with 600 likely voters / caucus goers, MoE 4.

State, DateClintonEdwardsObamaRichardsonOther / Unsure
Iowa, 5/26312511823
Iowa, 4/30232719526
NH, 5/26341815924
NH, 4/30372614320
SC, 5/26343018117
SC, 4/30361824121

I have a hard time accepting that Obama is so low in Iowa, considering that four polls last week showed him with at least twice that amount. I also have a hard time accepting Edwards at 30% in South Carolina, since all seven other polls from the state in the last two months placed him at 21% or less, and well behind Obama. In short, I'm not really sure why ARG polls seem to pick up so much less support for Obama than do other early state polls. Perhaps the ARG polls are just off, as outside of New Hampshire primaries and caucuses are not easy to poll. Perhaps they are identifying a weakness in Obama's coalition: too young, too independent to be considered "likely" voters. Or, perhaps the situation in the early states is far more fluid that we appreciate. Given the large amount of attention every campaign in lavishing on Iowa and New Hampshire, and given the small Democratic primary / caucus electorates of the two states (a combined 400,000 people), about 5% of them probably saw a Democratic candidate in person this past week alone. Perhaps swings like this should be considered normal.

Diarist hat-tip to georgep

Tags: Democrats, Iowa, New Hampshire, polls, President 2008, South Carolina (all tags)

Comments

57 Comments

ARG

Chris, do you have a link to ARG's polling results in 2004?

by clarkent 2007-05-29 12:15PM | 0 recs
Re: ARG
Yeah. They were pretty good in New Hampshire. Don't think they did too many other states in the primaries.
by Chris Bowers 2007-05-29 12:18PM | 0 recs
Re: ARG

Don't think they did too many other states in the primaries.

That's what I thought. I remember them in connection with NH, and they were as good as advertised. I didn't really hear about their polling elsewhere, though.

by clarkent 2007-05-29 12:23PM | 0 recs
Re: New Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina Po
Since Clinton's base remains relatively unchanged from poll to poll I think the rising campaign of Richardson may be one factor that is cutting into support for Obama and Edwards. The 11% for Obama may be too low but I do sense that he is dropping.
by robliberal 2007-05-29 12:17PM | 0 recs
Re: New Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina Po
The four polls from last week showed the opposite of an Obama drop in Iowa.
by Chris Bowers 2007-05-29 12:19PM | 0 recs
Re: New Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina Po
Obama has polled as low as 10% in Iowa going back to October ARG. I think some of the soft support is falling off his numbers and I base that partly on his numbers declining elsewhere.
by robliberal 2007-05-29 12:23PM | 0 recs
Re: New Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina Po

October polls aren't remotely relevant for Obama's position.

by Englishlefty 2007-05-29 12:24PM | 0 recs
Re: New Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina Po

Can you point to other polls where his support is decreasing? A quick glance at the other two most recent polls in Iowa shows Obama's support going up, not down.

by clarkent 2007-05-29 12:34PM | 0 recs
Re: New Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina Po

A factor in Iowa could be that Clinton opened 10 offices there over the last 2 weeks.  Also, Tom Vilsack and his wife have been extremely active in the state, virtually tireles.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=20070528/NEWS09/7052 80340-1/politics&lead=1

The Obama Iowa result here may be at the lower end of the MoE, so he could actually be closer to 16%.  

by georgep 2007-05-29 12:59PM | 0 recs
Re: New Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina Po

They are the only pollster showing Obama in the mid-teens in IA, NH and SC.

i HAVE NOT SEEN ANY ONE ELSE SHOW RESULTS LIKE THIS,

I believe ARG had a december poll showing Clinton leading Edwards 34-20. They were way out of line with other pollsters.

by BDM 2007-05-29 01:12PM | 0 recs
Re: New Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina Po

Yes, Vilsack, is campaigning to be VP if Hillary gets the nod.  And Obama from the other polls is rising in IA not falling.  I don't know the premise on the ARG polling, but this poll is way off.

by icebergslim 2007-05-29 01:12PM | 0 recs
Re:ARG=worse poll ever

ARG is terrible..Just disregard this poll...

by JaeHood 2007-05-29 04:10PM | 0 recs
I don't think he is dropping, but

he may have plateaued. Most of the Obama supporters I know signed on earlier this year, not in the last month or two.

I was at an Obama house party last week, and there were definitely some supporters there who probably wouldn't make it past anyone's likely voter screen. Will they show up on caucus night? Who knows, but more power to him if he can bring large numbers of new people into the process.

by desmoinesdem 2007-05-29 12:23PM | 0 recs
Re: I don't think he is dropping, but
I don't understand the theory that people who invest thier time to show up for a rally won't vote, especially when Obama has plenty of money to organize people. I think certain polling firms
voter models are shams which are keeping Obama's umbers down, there shouldn't be this much difference in results from different firms over the same time period,  averaging them doesn't weed out pollsters who's methods don't make any sense.
by nevadadem 2007-05-29 12:30PM | 0 recs
lots of people like to see all the candidates

I went to see Evan Bayh and Joe Biden last year, and I never had any intention of supporting them. I haven't seen Clinton or Obama yet, but if a convenient opportunity presented itself, I would show up to see them live.

I understand your argument, and I agree that this poll seems way off. I do not think Obama is that far back in Iowa.

But many people who show up at a rally will not caucus for that person.

Over at Bleeding Heartland someone wrote up a Clinton campaign appearance in Emmetsburg over the weekend, and he knew several people there who will definitely caucus for someone other than Clinton.

by desmoinesdem 2007-05-29 12:39PM | 0 recs
you won't get away with this stuff from me Rob

and you know what I'm talking about.

by nevadadem 2007-05-29 12:23PM | 0 recs
Re: you won't get away with this stuff from me Rob
What stuff is that?
by robliberal 2007-05-29 12:24PM | 0 recs
Re:

Obama goes up in 3 or 4 Iowa polls, one "firm" shows him down and you say he's "falling apart" or "imploding" you do the same thing with Edwards too.

by nevadadem 2007-05-29 12:32PM | 0 recs
Re:
I think he peaked in Iowa and other states. He has already fallen in the other states so I think he may very well be falling in Iowa too.
by robliberal 2007-05-29 01:34PM | 0 recs
Re:Yeah, i've noticed that too

Specially from rob...The comment that he made which suggested that Obama was falling, is plain ridiculous..All he can do is point out this one B.S pull that's completly out of whack while 4 new polls conducted during the past week,including the respected demoineregister, have suggested that Obama is picking up in Iowa....

So, again, how can this guy come here and state that Obama is falling apart??...Very bias B.S.

by JaeHood 2007-05-29 04:15PM | 0 recs
Re:Yeah, i've noticed that too
He has dropped in various other state and national polls as well it is not just Iowa.
by robliberal 2007-05-29 04:46PM | 0 recs
Re: New Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina Po

Seems true, except for Iowa, which must be either an outlier or a sign of increased strength there. Richardson isn't looking likely to go top tier any time soon (his Iraq strategy and environmental policy appeals more to the left, the rest of his domestic policy more to the right and if he becomes a factor in the race he's likely to get shot down in no time flat) but if he can maintain that 10% in Iowa and NH that makes him a factor.

by Englishlefty 2007-05-29 12:23PM | 0 recs
I think he'll rise further in Iowa

Whether he ever gets to 20 percent I don't know, but a lot of undecideds are interested in him.

Even if he stays at 10 percent, he will be viable in a decent number of precincts, because his support won't be evenly distributed.

by desmoinesdem 2007-05-29 12:27PM | 0 recs
it's hard to look at ARG without also

looking at the Republican results which show them completely backwords from every other polling firm in the race, either they are incompetents, frauds or visionaries or they are getting paid off from Hillary and mcCain. my gut feeling is Mark Penn's inevetability team has something to do with these numbers but I can't prove it. It is interesting how quickly Hillary's spin team is out to paint these obviosly wacky results as correct intead of the polls that showed Hillary doing bad in Iowa which led I presume to the imfamous skip Iowa memo.,

by nevadadem 2007-05-29 12:22PM | 0 recs
Re: it's hard to look at ARG without also

my gut feeling is Mark Penn's inevetability team has something to do with these numbers but I can't prove it.

Next thing you know he faked the moonlanding.

by Ernst 2007-05-29 12:50PM | 0 recs
Re: it's hard to look at ARG without also

Scratch that, he faked the "Earth is really round" memo to fool us "poor suckers."  

by georgep 2007-05-29 01:05PM | 0 recs
Re: it's hard to look at ARG without also

I wouldn't put it past him, that Mark Penn is a slippery one...

by Ernst 2007-05-29 01:07PM | 0 recs
Re: it's hard to look at ARG without also

...and with that last name, faked and bought Pennsylvania polls are a given.  

by georgep 2007-05-29 01:10PM | 0 recs
Re: it's hard to look at ARG without also

naturally. I'm just happy the state of Markafornia never did get admitted to the union.

by Ernst 2007-05-29 01:13PM | 0 recs
Re: it's hard to look at ARG without also

...true, but what about Maryland?  With those people, even partial name similarities are enough reason for a buyout.  

by georgep 2007-05-29 04:02PM | 0 recs
Re: it's hard to look at ARG without also

Really...My cable got disconnected today so i dont know what's happening in the TV press...Are the Hillary folks out on TV with this bogus poll?

by JaeHood 2007-05-29 04:19PM | 0 recs
Re: it's hard to look at ARG without also

This poll is no more bogus than any of the other polls in Iowa, particularly the ones you seem to like a lot, like polls showing Clinton falling "far behind."

by georgep 2007-05-29 05:12PM | 0 recs
more people probably showed up to see Obama

in New Hampshire over the weekend than ARG has voting for him in the entire state, I guess according to them donating money or seeing the candidate in person doesn't make for a likely voter.

by nevadadem 2007-05-29 12:25PM | 0 recs
Re: more people probably showed up to see Obama
I wonder how many were actually registered to vote.
by robliberal 2007-05-29 12:26PM | 0 recs
showing up doesn't mean likely voter

I know Edwards supporters who have gone out of their way to see Obama and Clinton this year out of curiosity. Even a conservative Iowa blogger trekked to see Hillary this weekend in NW Iowa.

But I take your point, there is a lot of enthusiasm at Obama rallies, and he does seem to be drawing support from some who have not voted regularly (or at all) in the past.

by desmoinesdem 2007-05-29 12:29PM | 0 recs
Re: more people probably showed up to see Obama

I've showed up to see candidates in person without actually voting for them later on.

by clarkent 2007-05-29 12:31PM | 0 recs
Likely voter

I posted this in georgep's original diary but I thought it would be good to be discussed here.

This is from ARG's site.

Question Wording:

Would you say that you definitely plan to participate in the 2008 Democratic presidential caucus, that you might participate in the 2008 Democratic presidential caucus, or that you will probably not participate in the 2008 Democratic presidential caucus?

Is the likely voter only those that said they "definitely plan to participate" or the combination of "definitely plan" and "might participate"?  Because if it is both, that seems to be much too loose a likely voter screen for a caucus.  To attend a caucus it takes a lot more effort, time and courage to go through with it than simply going to a voting booth and voting as in a primary.

Unfortunately, ARG doesn't have a breakdown on the 600 "likely voters" and how many were "definitely plan" and how many were "might participate".  A caucus, and especially the Iowa caucus since it's the first, is notoriously hard to poll.  I think the best thing for all the candidates to do is to not pay too much attention to each of the polls this far out and keep plugging away.

I'd love to find out what that breakdown of "definitely plan" and "might participate" were.

by minvis 2007-05-29 12:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Likely voter

In 2004 John Kerry was polling in single digits in IA with Dean and Gephardt in the lead, Kerry was behind Dean in NH 40-17. The polling gets really crazy in IA just before the Caucus with the tracking polls.

After the IA primary Dean's support dropped from 40-28 IN NH and Kerry just surged later on with Dean's support dropping.

by BDM 2007-05-29 01:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Likely voter

That is incorrect, as I have shown previously.  

Kerry had surged into the lead in New Hampshire in three major polls a week before the Iowa caucus.

by georgep 2007-05-29 01:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Likely voter

Show me your links for proof. I just looked it up.

by BDM 2007-05-29 01:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Likely voter

here's one:

Jan 16, 7:02 AM (ET)

By John Whitesides, Political Correspondent

DES MOINES, Iowa (Reuters) - Democratic presidential contender John Kerry opened a five-point lead on three tightly bunched rivals in Iowa three days before the state's caucuses, according to a Reuters/MSNBC/Zogby poll released on Friday.

In the latest three-day tracking poll, Kerry gained two percentage points to 24 percent, with Howard Dean and Richard Gephardt each dropping two points to 19 percent and John Edwards holding steady at 17 percent.

They were doing rolling 3-day averages throughout the last week or so; you could see the day-to-day movement.  I'll see what else I can find when I get home.

by RT 2007-05-29 01:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Likely voter
If I recall correctly Kerry released internal polls even earlier than that showing a surge.
by robliberal 2007-05-29 02:14PM | 0 recs
Another Iowa 2004 poll

January 17, 2004: the link shows a graph like this:

Kerry 26%
Edwards 23%
Dean 20%
Gephardt 18%
etc.
(nobody else above 3%)

by RT 2007-05-29 05:13PM | 0 recs
And an earlier pair

Thanks, Trapper John:

Research 2000 sez:

Jan 12-14, 607 likely caucusgoers, MoE +/-4 (Jan 5-7 in parentheses)

Dean        22 (29)
Kerry        21 (18)
Gephardt  18 (25)
Edwards   18 (8!)

by RT 2007-05-29 05:22PM | 0 recs
The whole sequence of rolling 3-day IA 2004 polls

Click here for Kerry's and Edwards' surge over the last week and a half before the 2004 Iowa caucuses.

by RT 2007-05-29 05:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Likely voter

http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/431 59%7Ctop%7C01-26-2004::07:12%7Creuters.h tml

Late last month Dean, the former governor of neighboring Vermont, led polls in New Hampshire by more than 20 points, but much of his lead evaporated in the week before Iowa and quickly disappeared after his loss there.

I'll find the 2 or 3 polls that actually showed Kerry already with a small lead in NH (I believe Suffolk U was one,) but there is no doubt that Dean's lead in NH had evaporated even before the Iowa caucuses.

by georgep 2007-05-29 03:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Likely voter

The link you refer to :

Democratic presidential contender John Kerry holds a shrinking three-point lead over Howard Dean on the eve of the New Hampshire primary, according to a Reuters/MSNBC/Zogby poll released Monday.

Dean shaved four points off Kerry's advantage in the latest three-day tracking poll, as supporters who wavered after his dismal third-place Iowa finish and screaming concession speech appeared to be returning to the fold.

This is discussing Kerry's lead after the IA caucus  not the week before the caucus.

by BDM 2007-05-29 07:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Likely voter

Can you show a link to this?  I find it difficult to believe.

by Nate Willems 2007-05-29 01:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Likely voter

2004 will serve for a long time as a reminder not to put your faith in polls when it concerns the IA caucus.

by Ernst 2007-05-29 01:11PM | 0 recs
IA caucus and polls

How so?  The polls I saw in the last week or so before the 2004 Iowa caucus absolutely nailed the late movement towards both Kerry and Edwards.

by RT 2007-05-29 01:47PM | 0 recs
Re: IA caucus and polls

We are talking about NH. yES THE TRACKING POLL A FEW DAYS BEFORE IA showed movement to Kerry. However, in NH he was down A LOT to Dean A WEEK BEFORE THE ia CAUCUS

by BDM 2007-05-29 01:57PM | 0 recs
ARG Sucks

They had Bush by 2 points the day before the primary in NH 2000.  They are a NH polling firm and effed that up that badly?  They assume 20% independent voting in the caucus, when the actual non-D vote is more like 5% (and will likely be less this year with fewer Rs crossing over).

by Whoppo 2007-05-29 12:59PM | 0 recs
Re: ARG Sucks

I believe McCain won the NH primary by 15pts.

by BDM 2007-05-29 01:02PM | 0 recs
Re: ARG Sucks

I saw Tucker Carlson tonight and he talked about the Desmoines Register poll regarding IA and they mentioned that Edwards is leading in IA.

I bet we donot see the ARG poll mentioned by the MSM.

by BDM 2007-05-29 01:20PM | 0 recs
Re: ARG Sucks

Excellent.  If polls are real, they are real, regardless whether pundits talk about them or not.  The expectation is that Edwards wins the state easily.   Polling shows us that that is anything but a certainty at this point.  Let the Carlson's and Tweety's talk about whatever they want to.  They just further the expectation that Edwards is a shoe-in for Iowa, which is very much in doubt at this point.  

by georgep 2007-05-29 03:25PM | 0 recs
Re: ARG Sucks

16 (unless rounding screwed it up somewhere).  So ARG was off by 18 points there, in what should be a relatively easy-to-poll primary in their home state.

by Whoppo 2007-05-29 01:22PM | 0 recs
I've personally downrated ARG to Zogby levels

OK, not only are their Dem numbers out of whack, but their GOP numbers have McCain surging into the lead in Iowa, NH, and SC.  WTF???

And I still can't forget the CT-Sen general election last year, where ARG had two polls showing Lamont only 2% behind Lieberman when everyone else had him at 10% or further back.  We know who turned out to be right in that instance.

by RT 2007-05-29 01:44PM | 0 recs

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