Beyond Just "Hard" and "Soft" Support

I wanted to try and clear up some confusion I have seen in the comments about the impact of "hard" and "soft" supporters in the Democratic nomination campaign. Some commenters have noted, correctly, that virtually every single poll shows a smaller percentage of Clinton supporters indicating that they might change their minds than supporters of other candidates (apart from an old Pew poll, I can't find many links on this right now, but I'm sure georgep and Robliberal can help out in the comments). This does in fact mean that Clinton has a higher percentage of "hard" supporters than any other candidates. When one considers the lengthy, fifteen-year relationship Hillary Clinton has had with the Democratic rank and file this makes perfect sense. Candidates such as Edwards, Obama and Richardson have had national profiles for much shorter time spans, and a longer term relationship will necessarily create support with greater depth than will a shorter relationship.

At the same time, it is also true that Clinton is the candidate who benefits most when polls push basically undecided leaners to make a decision. I first pointed this out nearly three months ago, and the recent YouGov poll that was released on MyDD demonstrated that thesis quite nicely. This means that she has the highest percentage of "soft" supporters of any other candidate. This is further emphasized when one considers that Obama performs better, relative to Clinton, among voters whoa are more engaged in the campaign than he does, relative to Clinton, among voters who are less engaged (source).

So, what does this all mean? How can Hillary Clinton have both the highest percentage of "hard" supporters who are unlikely to change their minds, and "soft" supporters who are basically undecided? It may seem like a contradiction, but I assure you that it is not. The key is to understand that there is more than a simple binary of "hard / soft" support, and instead a continuum of "hard" and "soft" support. Right now, voters fit into many different points along the continuum. It seems simply that Clinton's supporters tend to cluster near both extremes of that continuum--thus giving her both the hardest and softest supporters--and that supporters of other candidates tend to cluster more toward the center. In other words, Clinton seems to have a relatively lower percentage of supporters who, while decidedly leaning in her direction, are still keeping an open mind about the campaign. By way of contrast, that may be the most common profile of Edwards and Clinton supporters.

Again, this actually makes sense, and might actually indicate something of an "incumbent rule" factor within Clinton's support. After fifteen years, most Democrats have probably already decided whether or not Hillary Clinton would be their first choice for the Democratic nomination. Thus, she would have a lot of supporters who right now are not seriously considering other, newer candidates. At the same time, most of her super soft supporters that only choose her when pushed are probably convinced that Clinton is not their first choice, but they simply haven't seen a better option yet. This is either because they are not engaged in the campaign, or because they simply have yet to see a better option emerge from the field. It is important to note that these "super soft" Clinton supporters could actually stay with her when it comes time to vote or caucus, if it becomes clear to them that no better option will emerge. After all, the incumbent rule is weakening of late.

So, what does this all mean for the future of the campaign? On the one hand, it means that Clinton's numbers have the most immediate potential to drop, but on the other hand it also means that her bottom level of support is much higher than it is for other candidates. In fact, relating to the latter, it is quite possible that Clinton's absolute basement of support is very close to, or even slightly above, 15% of the Democratic primary / caucus electorate. This could potentially allow her to receive delegates virtually everywhere no matter what happens in the early states. Combine this advantage with what I imagine will be significant super delegate support, and she is already pretty much guaranteed to have quite a few delegates after February 5th.

As far as other candidates go, the key clearly is to stake out multiple, positive distinctions from Clinton, and then to perform well in the early states. This won't be easy, given Clinton's shrewd and currently effective blurring strategy. To get incredibly geeky for a moment, I think a useful analogy would come from Dune. In order to win the nomination, a non-Clinton candidate needs to be something of a Democratic Kwisatz Haderach who can tap into something so deep inside the collective Democratic unconscious that he can trasmute our rank and file's version of the water of life in a way that a Bene Gesserit like Clinton simply cannot.

If you in anyway care to understand what that last sentence means, click here. If you have an even better / geekier analogy, I'd love to hear one in the comments.

Tags: Democrats, Hillary Clinton, polls, President 2008 (all tags)

Comments

110 Comments

electability
The only way Hillary is stopped for the nomination is by Obama with a subtle electability arguement that he is starting to make. His campaign is passing out general election polling matchups in Iowa and while he'll never quite come out and say Hillary is too polarizing to win that's going to be the inference, some on the left don't like our candidates going there but if this race comes down to "issues" and experience instead of personality, and electability issues Hillary might as well start picking her Veep now.
The way i' ve gotten Hillary supporters to move to Obama is to point out that she won't be considered by about half the nations voters and basically we concede the fact by her nomination that we are destined to have the race come down to
a few percent and a few battleground states. most democrats even those that like Hillary I think have a gut feeling that she is going to have a difficult time getting half the country to vote for her and thierfore I think if Hillary does poorly in Iowa and then bombs among New Hampshire indies giving Obama the state, her support could collapse quickly, the press can be quite brutal to early state losers and those losses would in effect validate Obama's electability strategy which would then become the dominant theme in the race. Basically her achilles heal has always been nto the iraq war vote but the feeeling that dems need to move on to something new, poor early showingfs theirfore will expose that weakness more than they would other candidates.
by nevadadem 2007-05-28 01:18PM | 0 recs
Heh, great mind thinks alike

when it comes to the subject field.

by Populism2008 2007-05-28 01:24PM | 0 recs
I have a hard time believing

that Obama has any significant electabilty over Clinton.  Does any real data show that?  What I have seen is all of the top 3 are very electable as of now, and Edwards has a slight advantage overall.  But all three appear to be electable.

Why do you believe Obama is more electable?  Fair or not, the experience factor will be used against him.  So far, being African American has been a big advanatage because it makes him novel in some ways.  Is there any data on how that will play out?  Is there a Harvey Gantt effect anymore?  I don't think we really know.

To me, there is an inate danger of picking a candidate based on electability.  It's mostly guess work, at least after you get past Kucinich and Biden.  

Better to go on issues and character, who they are.  Between Clinton and Obama, I would have a hard time choosing.  Fortunately, I don't have to, because Edwards is my choice.  If I had to pick a second choice, it would be Dodd.  

by littafi 2007-05-28 05:59PM | 0 recs
Re: I have a hard time believing

Obama is more likable and charismatic than Clinton. He is better at connecting with people. And likeability is what counts in the end, as the victories of Reagan and GWB shows.

The value of "experience" (Edwards does not fare better than Obama on this point) is overhyped. Experience does not get you elected. especially not if your record can be distorted. Against Guiliani, Thompson and Romney it would not matter at all - since these 3 are as "inexperienced" as Obama and Edwards. Against McCain it might be a small factor. but he has other weak points (being old and so on).

by Populism2008 2007-05-28 10:49PM | 0 recs
Populism2008 wrote:

"Obama is more likable and charismatic than Clinton. He is better at connecting with people. And likeability is what counts in the end, as the victories of Reagan and GWB shows."
__________

Piffle.  Have you seen the highly enthusiastic receptions Hillary gets in N.H., Iowa, Nevada?  They love her.  This mantra that keeps being repeated - that the country loves Obama and does not like Hillary, is crap.  It's neither accurate nor fair.

Furthermore, if Hillary were as "unliked" as you say she is, she sure as heck would not be polling highest among all demographic groups - all of them - except for white males where she breaks about even with Obama.

So, what I see here with you and others is a seemingly desperate need to cling to all you think you've got - the twisted belief that Hillary is so disliked that she simply can't win. YOU dislike her.  The higher percentage of the netroots seems to dislike her.  The rest of the Dems in the country?  They like her!! Stop being so absurd.

by samueldem 2007-05-29 01:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Populism2008 wrote:

Your post would be great if you were responding to something about the primary.  My understanding is that the previous post was about electability in the general election.

by Obama08 2007-05-29 04:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Populism2008 wrote:

Yes, I've always found that unlike in the general election the democratic primaries always break for the candidate on the "Kick a puppy" platform.

Well except for the freak win by the "throw momma from the train" candidate in 1956. But since the whistle stop tours haven't enjoyed much popularity since then, we can easily discard that win as not relevant in today's politics.

If somebody does well in the primaries, it's probably because he/she is likable. It's not that the democratic base chooses the biggest asshole of the bunch. They chose the most viable, likable person. The dynamic between the general and primary is almost entirely the same concerning "Likeability"

by Ernst 2007-05-29 07:08AM | 0 recs
Re: electability

I have qualms with this theory. Nixon, for example, was very much a polarising figure, but he still managed to reinvent himself and get 60% in 1972. The examples aren't exactly the same as McGovern had a much rougher time in the campaign than any Republican is likely to get and Nixon was running for re-election (and on false premises at that), but I don't think negatives should be viewed as set in stone. It's more difficult to move them than it is to move positives, but a smart campaign can do it.

by Englishlefty 2007-05-29 03:29AM | 0 recs
Electability

was a big concern among those Dems that switched from Dean to Kerry the last few weeks. If Hillary's electability problems receive more attention Obama could benefit. Obama's strategy should be:

1. Remind voters of his and Hillary's different history on Iraq.

  1. Show voters that Hillary as a nominee will hurt the Democratic Party. (This should probably be done by surrogates rather than Obama himself)
  2. Capture the black vote.
  3. Turn out the youth vote.
  4. Peel off some Edwards voters who are strongly anti-Hillary.

Obama's chances are excellent in my opinion. A lot of voters haven't made up their minds yet, and those 60%+ who won't name Hillary now are not likely to vote for her in the primaries. Hopefully Obama will outraise Hillary in Q2 sending shockwaves through the MSN. His position in Iowa and New Hampshire is already quite good and will improve once he starts campaigning there seriously.

by Populism2008 2007-05-28 01:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Electability

"Obama's chances are excellent in my opinion. A lot of voters haven't made up their minds yet, and those 60%+ who won't name Hillary now are not likely to vote for her in the primaries."

That is nonsense by any measure.  You are assuming that as candidates peel away that Clinton will not pick up a singulary voter from other candidates.  That is ridiculous reasoning.   Besides, she gets a huge percentage of first AND second choice votes (65%,) a much higher level than either Obama or Edwards.  Her support universe at this point is a lot higher than either Obama's or Edwards'.    

by georgep 2007-05-28 02:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Electability

Unfortunately, I agree.

by Korha 2007-05-28 05:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Electability

I am talking about undecided voters at this point.

And people do not have two votes.

by Populism2008 2007-05-28 10:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Electability

Second choice vote means that she's second in preference. She might not get those votes, but they sure do point that claiming that Hillary will never get a vote she doesn't have already is not supported by any facts.

There is nothing that suggest that Hillary can't gain votes from undecideds

by Ernst 2007-05-29 07:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Electability

I don't support Obama, but I would not call him an "empty suit."  I have to disagree with you there.  Too harsh.  You have a point, but it could have been made without that gratuitous attack on Barack Obama.  

I think his experience will be an issue.  The people will decide.

by littafi 2007-05-28 06:01PM | 0 recs
Bullshit

How come noon talks about the "inexperience" of Edwards, Guiliani, Romney and Thompson? They have no more experience than Obama's six years in Illiniois senate and four years in US senate (after 2008).

I guess it's either because Obama is black (not so much in here) or because he looks young.

by Populism2008 2007-05-28 10:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Bullshit

Because most of them have been around since the '90.

And Edwards has been running continuesly since 2003. Obama is simply the newest kid on the block. That obama is young looking doesn't help as well.

But Edwards, Guiliani, Romney and Thompson will likely be grilled on that subject if one of them becomes the nominee. it's just that they've all got worse problems right now.

by Ernst 2007-05-29 07:26AM | 0 recs
Obama to HRC: 'Do or do not, there is no try'

Hillary has a low midi-chlorian count. If a high midi-chlorian candidate like Oba-Ma Kenobi can contrast Hillary's 'I'll deliver health care for all by the end of my second term' with Oba-Ma's 'I'll deliver health care for all by the end of my first term' I think he can draw out Hillary Clinton onto very unfavorable grounds for debate. Will Oba-Ma deliver in his first term?

Sen. Clinton: I don't believe it.
Sen. Oba-Ma: That is why you fail.

by joejoejoe 2007-05-28 01:39PM | 0 recs
QPac

I keep coming back to the Quinnipiac "thermometer" poll from last Thanksgiving, which had respondents rate candidates on a scale of 0-100.  Most candidates are on a bell curve; the Clintons are on U-shaped curves.

by Adam B 2007-05-28 01:55PM | 0 recs
Beyond Just "Hard"

Chris -

" Some commenters have noted, correctly, that virtually every single poll shows a smaller percentage of Clinton supporters indicating that they might change their minds than supporters of other candidates (apart from an old Pew poll, I can't find many links on this right now, but I'm sure georgep and Robliberal can help out in the comments). This does in fact mean that Clinton has a higher percentage of "hard" supporters than any other candidates."

One thing I am focusing on are the polls that measure first AND second choice polling.  In every poll to date we have seen Clinton get around 63%, 65% of respondents' first and second choice nods, while Obama gets a respectable 45% to 48%, whereas Edwards' first and second choice nods are in the neighborhood of 25%, a huge 40% difference between him and Clinton.   That is the conceivable universe the candidates can draw from, as a candidate should be at least someone's second choice to possibly bring that voter to his/her side.  Clinton's conceivable universe of maximized support is 65%, Obama's is about 48% and Edwards' is 25%.   That is why I believe that in terms of national polling things have been and will continue to be absolutely stable for some time, unless something unexpected shows up to damage one of the top-3 candidate's prospects.    For further validation, look at today's discussion of Rasmussen's poll numbers:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/5/28/1379 /44945

What is shown is an extremely stable race with absolutely no change whatsoever in a full 4 1/2 months, and polling data showing an almost EXACT makeup alongst the lines of the first-and-second choice percentages I listed above, each getting almost exactly HALF of stated support of their first-and-second choice pieces of the pie, with the other half not explicitly stated as support, but making up each candidate's max top-level universe combined with the already stated support.

The recent Marist poll showed Clinton's support levels as follows:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/RCP_PDF /Marist050807.pdf

60% of Democrats who support Hillary Clinton are strongly committed to voting for her on
primary day. 21% say they somewhat support her, and 18% might vote differently.

Question Wording: Would you say that you strongly support Hillary Clinton, somewhat
support her, or do you think that you might vote differently on primary day?

Only Democrats supporting Hillary Clinton in the primary

by georgep 2007-05-28 01:59PM | 0 recs
keep talking

Somehow I don't think the Clinton camp is as confident as you are. At this point in 2003 Dean was just starting to make his move. A lot can happen in six months.

Frankly, in November and December 2003 I didn't even really believe Kerry could win myself. I just kept working my precinct and my acquaintances. I will do the same this year, no matter what polls say.

Incidentally, do you care to take my bet? You win if Clinton finishes first or second in Iowa, and I win if Clinton finishes third and fourth in Iowa. No money involved.

by desmoinesdem 2007-05-28 03:04PM | 0 recs
Re: keep talking

Did you know that I wanted to post that I would take your bet, but couldn't do so honestly?

Luckily for her I tried to find If I would bet on any other candidate taking a second or first spot, but could find one.

Just like you said, anything can happen in six months. And while I believe she's in the best postion and would certainly bet on her winning the nomination, I'd never ever bet anything on the Iowa caucus.

That caucus scares me.... :)

by Ernst 2007-05-29 07:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Beyond Just "Hard"

I don't think we can say the possible voter pools are yet defined. Give it six months and this analysis will certainly be crucial, but until there have been a few more debates, many more events and endorsements and a lot more press coverage most of the pack is going to be little more than names (at best names and resumes) to a lot of the voters.

That's not to say that the polling will decisively change, but I think there's room for movement of second choices in particular, which may become crucial if some of the candidates drop out.

by Englishlefty 2007-05-29 03:34AM | 0 recs
Beyond Just "Hard" and "Soft"

This is why I think it's important for other candidates - and their supporters - to stress the positives of their chosen candidates as opposed to the negatives of Clinton. I don't think it will be negative attacks that draw away the soft Clinton supporters, but positive statements that will draw the softies, along with solidifying their own support.

by PsiFighter37 2007-05-28 02:01PM | 0 recs
Or "stealth" negative...

 Obama could campaign as the "ONLY Democrat who opposed this war from the beginning", thus drawing attention to Clinton's warmongering without actually mentioning it. Edwards could say he's the "ONLY Democrat serious about ending the war", once again, implying that Clinton isn't (which is true).

 Or one or both of them could say that they're the Democrats who "put America first", bringing Clinton's AIPAC ties into bold relief.

 Edwards can cast himself as "the ONLY Democrat who stands up for working families".

 There are many ways to draw out Clinton's many negatives without outright attacking her. And the latter can be done by progressive organizations unaffiliated with any particular campaign, such as MoveOn.

 Or Al Gore could jump in... (I know, I know...)

 

by Master Jack 2007-05-28 02:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Or "stealth" negative...

 Disagree. I've met a few soft Hillary supporters who changed their minds after I pointed out to them her Murdoch ties, her anything-but-progressive funding sources, her (skillfully disguised) love for the Iraq war, and her corporatism.

 They weren't aware of ANY of that. And these were anything but low-info voters...

by Master Jack 2007-05-28 02:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Or "stealth" negative...

a very liberal CNN pundit

  No such thing exists.

 

by Master Jack 2007-05-28 05:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Or "stealth" negative...
Good point. Can't remember her name, but years
ago a New Yorker writer was astonished that
Nixon won because "none of my friends voted for him."
by Cismontane 2007-05-28 06:02PM | 0 recs
a lot of people who like Hillary

have big doubts about the baggage she brings to the race. I don't think it would take much for them to change their minds.

Fortunately for Hillary, the GOP is doing its best to tear down Obama and Edwards and holding its fire on Clinton. They are praying that she is the nominee they get to run against.

by desmoinesdem 2007-05-28 03:06PM | 0 recs
Re: a lot of people who like Hillary

"Fortunately for Hillary, the GOP is doing its best to tear down Obama and Edwards and holding its fire on Clinton. They are praying that she is the nominee they get to run against."

Oh, please.  This is why I simply can't take your posts seriously and I assume that your "inside" info on Iowa is tainted with the same nonsense.  I am actually inclined to believe the opposite of what you write about what is going on "at the ground level" in Iowa because of posts like this one.   I am sorry to be blunt, but this sentiment is complete garbage.    

by georgep 2007-05-28 04:25PM | 0 recs
A little rude there,

George.  I find DesmoinesDem's diaries on Iowa and comments very thougtful.

Perhaps you should try to disagree without being disagreeable.  

by littafi 2007-05-28 06:04PM | 0 recs
Re: A little rude there,

Well, I don't think that the statement that was made here lends itself to honest disagreement.  

"Fortunately for Hillary, the GOP is doing its best to tear down Obama and Edwards and holding its fire on Clinton. They are praying that she is the nominee they get to run against."

That is the type of statement that basically shows such tremendous bias that it makes any objective analysis fom the Iowa "ground level" impossible to come by (at least for me.)     Perhaps we are all a bit biased, but some more than others.  I consider the above sentence paranoid in the sense that the claim of a widespread Republican conspiracy to "get" Obama and Edwards to further Hillary Clinton's fortunes is made.  The idea being that with the help of her Republican "friends" she then beats both Edwards and Obama who then make her their easy prey in the general election.

It makes no sense, is a complete copout, a strawman.   If Clinton wins the nomination it will no doubt be used to "explain" her win over the "better" candidates.  

I merely told desmoinesdem that seeing that type of comment makes it impossible for me to believe that any report from Iowa from her pen is in any way unbiased or valuable in the sense of giving a true reading on what really is going on there.

A shame, because it would really be great to have someone in the state who could give us a rundown on what is really happening there.  

I expect folks here to disagree with me, I am definitely still in the minority.  

by georgep 2007-05-28 09:42PM | 0 recs
Re: A little rude there,

Compared to the normal background noise, there are more attacks on Obama and Edwards than on Clinton. Whether this is statistically significant and whether it's a definite plan or just coincidental is unclear, but Republicans don't really need to smear Clinton just yet. They've already saturated the market for that for more than a decade, now they just need to pick the slurs that work.

by Englishlefty 2007-05-29 03:38AM | 0 recs
Re: a lot of people who like Hillary

I was at a small dinner party Sunday night with five hard core liberals who follow the election but are not political geeks.

Nobody wants Hillary.  Either they don't think that she can win or they don't want to go thru the Clinton's dirty underwear one more time.  The two other woman were most anti-Hillary.  

They called Edwards the pretty boy.

And the attitude on Obama (I swear I kept my mouth shut and just listened) was pretty much wait and see.  

Based on this anecdote and the polls I think for Obama to win he will need to be seen as a more viable candidate then he is now.  Iowa and NH could do it for him, but we already knew that.  Bottom line there are a lot of people who would support Obama or Edwards if they felt that they were backing a winner.

by aiko 2007-05-29 04:09AM | 0 recs
Re: a lot of people who like Hillary

They are praying that she is the nominee they get to run against.

If they had any sense they'd pray that Dodd or Biden would be the nominee.

Those might just possible lose however slight that chance is. Hillary will easily beat everybody the GOP can field.

Remember those who pray for a Hillary candidacy are the reason why the GOP is in the state that it is.

If they get their wish they just might succeed in digging an ever bigger hole for themselves. They'll overreact and completely lose it. Nobody is going to listen to somebody who's foaming at the mouth.

by Ernst 2007-05-29 07:54AM | 0 recs
"Love, trust, and have faith in?"

Who are you talking to?

Everyone I know does not love, trust or have faith in Hillary. What makes it worse, these are independent voters Hillary needs to win and they can't stand her.

by Nedsdag 2007-05-28 04:53PM | 0 recs
shrewd?

If the candidates are undifferentiable on policy/ideology, electability wins. I don't see any way Hillary can shake that perception; it's too well grounded in polling data and 'reality on the ground.'

Obama has a single-digit lead in the black vote, according to most recent data I've seen. Also, blacks tend to exhibit high undecided rates up until the last minute (most of whom I'd expect to break for Obama)

by jforshaw 2007-05-28 02:06PM | 0 recs
electability

 First off, I'll say that I personally dislike the "electability" argument when it comes to picking a nominee. That's how we wound up with John Kerry. Any attempt to "game" one's selection based on what one perceives others might think of it is doomed to have the Dems wind up with the blandest, dullest, least inspiring candidate possible.

The Republicans NEVER worry about so-called "electability". They instead MAKE their candidates electable, no matter how ill-qualified they are (look at what's in the White House now).

That said, I find it very hard to believe that the Dem establishment isn't at least AWARE of Hillary Clinton's extremely high negatives among the general voting public. These are, by and large, the same people who fretted hourly about how we couldn't possibly have Howard Dean as the nominee because of his supposed unelectability, while now completely discarding the issue regarding Hillary Clinton.

 I find that...curious. And not more than a little unsettling.

by Master Jack 2007-05-28 02:26PM | 0 recs
Re: electability

I wouldn'y worry about national numbers. It is the dynamic that changes if some one win's IA big and NH.

Politics is a dynamic process and not static process.

I see Clinton with an approximate 10 pt lead nationally, but that is not an overwhelming lead. Everything changes after the 1st primary,

If Clinton wins the first primary she has a leg up on the nomination and will probably be the nominee..

by BDM 2007-05-28 03:09PM | 0 recs
Re: electability

If Edwards win's IA he will have tremendous momentum going into IA

If Obama win's IA he will probably win NH and the nomination.

by BDM 2007-05-28 03:13PM | 0 recs
Re: electability

Blah, blah, blah.  Iowa means nothing unless you already have strong support in other states.   Iowa is NOT the kingmaker you make it out to be, far from it.  

by georgep 2007-05-28 03:55PM | 0 recs
Re: electability

I agree that Iowa doesn't necessarily have the power to be a kingmaker, but it can destroy a candidates chances.  I think if Hillary gets second and anyone else wins Iowa, we have a long drawn out race.  If Hillary gets third and Edwards and Obama take the top two spots, the story will not be about either Edwards or Obama but about Hillary.  She has such high expectations that third place will destroy her chances.  I think if this latter situation occurs, Obama wins the nomination.  He will take New Hampshire and South Carolina and has the money and infrastructure to be on air in the February 5th states stealing any momentum which Edwards gets if he wins Iowa and Nevada.

by Obama08 2007-05-28 04:13PM | 0 recs
The problem with that scenario

is Obama must win NH and SC.  Neither are sure things.  Last I saw Obama and Edwards were tied for 2d in NH behind Clinton. We have a long way to go.

by littafi 2007-05-28 06:06PM | 0 recs
Obama has a good chance in SC

Count me as someone who doesn't believe that he won't garner a huge majority of black votes, which is 50% of the Dem primary electorate in SC.  Obama needs a strong 2nd in Iowa and a win in NH (independents like him) and he wins SC easy...with awesome mo into Feb 5th.

by rashomon 2007-05-28 10:10PM | 0 recs
That argument is hogwash regarding GWB

All the polling listed him as most electable in 2000. There were studies dating to early '99 with Bush defeating Gore if you looked at known categories that are vital to electoral success. I remember when Bush "won" narrowly one of the people involved in the study got on all the TV programs and said that's what his model had forecast for two years, a tight Bush win. Bush was given high marks in terms of likability, and as a two term gov coming from a vital electoral state, and support of the base. The generic models based on historical economic numbers forecast a comfy Democratic win, but head-to-head we lost ground. Sound familiar?

I'll say it again; no one who lived through the 2006 Nevada governor's race would dismiss electability. That race is still being debated on Nevada forums because it seemed impossible to lose. Then you realize we had a nominee with high negatives and it was a female candidate in a state with no history of electing women to highest office. That's what we'll face with Hillary also, and denying the significance is remarkably foolish.

by Gary Kilbride 2007-05-29 01:53AM | 0 recs
Re: shrewd?

Obama is battling the "electability" issue to a much larger extent than either Clinton or Edwards.  His problem is his lack of experience, which makes him unelectable to many.  

by georgep 2007-05-28 03:58PM | 0 recs
Re: shrewd?

problem is the polls don't show half the country won't vote for Obama because of his lack of "experience" they do show half the voters won't vote for Hillary because they don't like her, the "experienced" candidates do not have good records in presidential matchups in the last 50 years.

by nevadadem 2007-05-28 04:06PM | 0 recs
He has no lack of experience

compared to all other candidates on both sides except for McCain (who won't win) and Hillary.

People did not pick Reagan, Bill Clinton or GWB because of their experience.

by Populism2008 2007-05-28 11:02PM | 0 recs
Re: He has no lack of experience

All "serious" candidate I should say. Of course someone like Richardson has more experience but I don't consider him viable since he polls under 10%.

by Populism2008 2007-05-28 11:03PM | 0 recs
Re: He has no lack of experience

I wouldn't count him out just yet. He's improving in iowa and still has a long time to grow.

He's actually rather low on my list of preference, but I still think he has potential to become a player in this race.

by Ernst 2007-05-29 08:01AM | 0 recs
Re: He has no lack of experience

Reagan and GWB were twice elected governors of some of the biggest states in the union. Bill Clinton was a successful and long serving governor of a southern state.

While perhaps people didn't vote for them on their record they could at least point to them when people asked questions. That might just stopped people from not voting for them.

by Ernst 2007-05-29 08:06AM | 0 recs
Re: shrewd?

"Obama is battling the "electability" issue to a much larger extent than either Clinton or Edwards.  His problem is his lack of experience, which makes him unelectable to many." (georgep)
_______

Yes and if you know it, and I know it, you can take it to the bank that Hillary and her entire team know it.  Running for President with a lack of experience is a huge disadvantage, whether you're cute and charismatic or not.  And this is Hillary's strong card. She is playing it well so far, especially with the new video by Bill Clinton, now on her website.  Hillary has her experience as the ultimate weapon against Obama.

As the summer months wear on, and if Hillary's poll ratings start to slip, she has such a long resume that she can incrementally reveal it, one piece at a time, in her speeches but also in videos and ads.

If we ever needed a President with experience, it is now - now that Bush has destroyed everything in sight.  (there's an ad right there).  

The reality is, Hillary has done more work on behalf of women and children than any of the candidates running, both Democratic and Republican.  I'd like to see her do an ad "with" Madeleine Albright about Vital Voices, which they established together in 1997 - for the women of the world.

Here is Hillary's first ad from Bill.  Please watch it:

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/video/27.a spx

by samueldem 2007-05-29 01:50AM | 0 recs
Re: shrewd?

If the candidates are indifferentiable (as you claim) Clinton wins every time.  That is because amongst Democrats she is the most popular, and the perception amongst Democrats is that she is the most qualified for the presidency.   If Obama or Edwards don't come up with a major new angle, the race is not bound to change from the current alignment.  

by georgep 2007-05-28 04:00PM | 0 recs
Clinton's problem is simple.

This is shaping up as a "change" election.  Obama has a much better hold on that idea than Clinton does.  If she can find a way to be the "change" candidate (or at least blunt Obama) she will win.

by rashomon 2007-05-28 10:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton's problem is simple.

Clinton is definitely blunting the "change" factor, as you say, but by many measures Clinton herself is positioning herself as a change candidate.  

She would be the first woman ever to be president of the United States, with women making up 55% of all voters and about 58% of the US population.   Can't get much more "change" than that.  

She would clearly provide a strong change from the current occupant of the White House in almost every conceivable way.

 She is also seen by a majority of the population as the most liberal of the 3 top-tier candidates (that perception also holds true when "Democrats only" are polled) so if this is a true "change" election, the perception of her as being very liberal (more so than Obama or Edwards) would make her a change candidate when it comes to the political spectrum.  

That is why polls actually have her doing also  well in the "change candidate" scenario in addition to her solid lead in the "Strong leader" scenario.   For instance, the latest Marist poll asked about the characteristics of each candidate, and while Obama had the lead in the "change" candidate scenario, Clinton did better than Edwards as an "agent of change."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/RCP_PDF /Marist050807.pdf

But, I am not really buying into this whole "this election is shaping up to be a change election" scenario.  Sure, to some that may be an issue. But it is more likely to be a plethora of scenarios, with the candidate combining most  factors in him/her coming out as the winner.  Main factors being  experience, change, strong leader, being in tune with voter's issues, being good for education, the economy, foreign affairs, having empathy, etc.

by georgep 2007-05-29 12:11AM | 0 recs
Women are not 58% of the US population

Not even close. I can't believe no one challenged that. It's about 51%, actually somewhat less.

It's true women are about 54% of the voters in a presidential year and a point or two less than that in a midterm. That's largely due to percentages among age groups. Women outnumber men once you get to age 40 and above and it increases in percentage each subsequent age bracket. At 80 and higher women are almost double. And since the older blocks are the more reliable voters, there are simply more women available to vote, among the group groups more inclined to vote. I've seen reports that among the 65-74 age group, the percentage is often 10 to 20 percent more likely to vote than the population as a whole.

by Gary Kilbride 2007-05-29 02:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton's problem is simple.

Is it? I'd argue it's shaping up to be an election about Iraq (where the candidates differ, but not so radically as to enthuse non-wonks) and change only in the sense of a different individual. Obama's change agenda is that he's black and allegedly brings "a new kind of politics". Clinton's change agenda is that she's a woman. Those would be firsts (bar the "new kind of politics", which would be about the 35th), but I'm not sure this is an election based on change in terms of policy positions.

by Englishlefty 2007-05-29 03:44AM | 0 recs
Re: shrewd?

That is a statement of faith, not facts. We'll see.

by Populism2008 2007-05-28 11:03PM | 0 recs
Re: shrewd?

I said "the perception amongst Democrats" is that she has more experience.  That is fact, as evidenced by poll after poll.  

by georgep 2007-05-28 11:54PM | 0 recs
If Hillary's floor is in the range of 15 to 20 ...

... the means that she cannot be eliminated from the race ... a la Jesse Jackson in 1988.

However, around 25 would allow ample room for two candidates to finish ahead of her in a drawn out contest.

And, indeed, having both Obama and Edwards in the race substantially reduces the possibility that she will hold onto people looking on Hillary as a fall back if they cannot find someone better.

by BruceMcF 2007-05-28 02:13PM | 0 recs
I agree with this

25 percent could be third place for her.

I don't care what polls say now about Hillary's supposedly hard support. When I talk to people who like Hillary, they often bring up doubts about her electability even before I mention anything about the Clinton baggage.

by desmoinesdem 2007-05-28 03:09PM | 0 recs
Re: I agree with this

I experience the exact opposite.  Most people I meet in this state tell me that they would love to vote for Clinton, but they are not sure if a woman can get elected in this day and age.  They become strong supporters once they realize that gender is really not an issue with her.  

by georgep 2007-05-28 03:57PM | 0 recs
it's not about gender

I think that a woman governor could absolutely be elected president.

The Clintons are highly polarizing. I don't want to live through all that again, and neither do a lot of other people. Particularly since I see no sign that Hillary would ever exert herself for any progressive cause.

Hillary has all of Bill Clinton's negatives, but none of his positives (she is a northeastern senator and mediocre speaker, whereas he was a southern governor and great communicator). He also had Ross Perot helping him twice, which Hillary will not have. 43 percent and 49 percent would not be enough for her to win the presidency.

I don't want to risk two or three more Supreme Court justices appointed by a Republican just because Hillary feels entitled to the presidency.

by desmoinesdem 2007-05-28 04:15PM | 0 recs
Re: it's not about gender

well put demoines dem, we differ about Obama/Edwards but we agree on Hillary, I can accept the argument that Hillary would be the best president from people on here, I don't agree but atleast it's debatable, that said people who beleive she is the best nominee in terms of having the best chance to win a presidential election are living on another planet, many dems around here probably think Kucicnich or Gravel would be the best president but they won't vote for thier nomination.

by nevadadem 2007-05-28 04:51PM | 0 recs
Re: it's not about gender

Most Democrats disagree with you.  In poll after poll Democrats state that they believe that Clinton is the best bet for the general election.   That contradicts your personal opinion, which, after all, is merely your personal opinion.  

by georgep 2007-05-28 04:58PM | 0 recs
Re: it's not about gender

and none of those people are bothering apparently to look at side by side polling which shows she is the worst pick. their disconnect is a problem.

by bruh21 2007-05-28 07:42PM | 0 recs
Re: it's not about gender
General election matchups show Clinton and Edwards would be strong. In state by state matchups Obama does not do well and would lose blue states and polls in the 30s in some states some 10 points behind Clinton and Edwards.
by robliberal 2007-05-28 07:48PM | 0 recs
Not true

Look at Rasmussen's latest numbers. Hillary is dead last.

by Populism2008 2007-05-28 11:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Not true

 An Obama supporter citing Rasmussen?  The poll in which Clinton ties Giuliani in a head-to-head while Obama actually polls behind Giuliani?   Now Edwards' head-to-head against Giuliani has shrunk to a 2% advantage, a statistical tie.   Truth is that all 3 top-tier candidates are now doing about the same at this point against GOP opposition.    

by georgep 2007-05-29 12:18AM | 0 recs
Well "most Democrats"

are not political junkies. These people though that John Kerry was our best nominne in 2004 and Dukakis in 1988.

It's fascinating to see how you keep referring to "ordinary Americans" as some sort of experts on this race. Ordinary Democrats knew nothing about Ned Lamont in May 2006 yet he won the primary against frickin Joe Lieberman.

I'll bet you stop referring to low info Dems when Hillary starts tanking in this group.

by Populism2008 2007-05-28 11:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Well "most Democrats"

I bet you keep referring to these "low-info" Dems the same way into and past the primaries, unless they stop showing support for Clinton.  

What counts is the opinion and perception of those you so easily dismiss.  If they like Clinton better than other candidates for whatever reason imaginable, then, by golly, she will be the nominee.  

by georgep 2007-05-29 12:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Well "most Democrats"

These people though that John Kerry was our best nominee in 2004 and Dukakis in 1988

You know what? they just might have been right as well. We can't test it as we can't go back and run somebody else to see if your or my choice would have gotten better results.

As an argument it's useless. Perhaps Kerry was the best candidate we had. He scored 49% after all.

Perhaps Dean would've only got 45% or perhaps Lieberman out of all people (god forbid) would have won. We don't know. We'll never know. We can't know. So basing arguments about it basing them on hypothetical situations and that's just intellectually false.

by Ernst 2007-05-29 08:24AM | 0 recs
Re: it's not about gender

Nevadadem: You keep talking about Obama being more appealing to independents and would do best in the general.  Why doesn't he have the same appeal to DEMOCRATS. Last time I checked he had $25 million to use to make his case to his DEMOCRATIC constituency, so maybe he should stop thinking about the general election and start talking to Democrats. Tell me what Obama brings to the table that makes him more trustworthy than Hillary to be the Democratic nominee.   He was against the war initially, but Feingold he is not.  I read his foreign relations speech and he wanted us to know that there are people in Kenya who still want to come to America we must secure the plague in the Ukraine or some such. He has no health care plan yet.  Obama's problem is that he wants to be hailed as the new guard without presenting any new ideas.  There is a Unity 08 ticket if he wants to skip over the DEMOCRATIC Process and reach those Independents and moderate Republicans, because that seems to be your and Obama's focus.  Say what you will about Hillary, but she is busting her ass to win the DEMOCRATIC nomination.

by Kingstongirl 2007-05-28 05:33PM | 0 recs
Re: it's not about gender

ah Obama hasn't run a tv ad yet,and the health care plan is coming this is a LOOOOOOOOONG race to the nomination,  he is apealing to democrats but part of his appeal to democrats is that he doesn't just appeal to democrats. Many dems are tired of the "checklist" candidates who generally don't win general elections against thier  Republican opponents,the ability to sell the "progressive" message better than Hillary to others is important.

by nevadadem 2007-05-28 05:44PM | 0 recs
Re: it's not about gender

We are in a democracy.  DEMOCRATS will be voting for their candidate.  You seem to overlook that fact when you speak of "entitlement."  It makes no sense.  I repeat:  The VOTERS will decide.  Nobody can feel entitled, because there WILL be a vote about the matter.  

by georgep 2007-05-28 04:56PM | 0 recs
desmoinesdem wrote:

"I don't want to risk two or three more Supreme Court justices appointed by a Republican just because Hillary feels entitled to the presidency."
______

Oh here we go with that wonderful word "entitled" again.  Why on earth do you, or anyone, believe that Hillary feels entitled?  The woman is working SO hard, never skipping a beat in her senatorial obligations and campaigning as hard, if not harder, than anyone running.  Entitled? This is a misperception and it's every bit as offensive as being sexist.  When you claim "she feels entitled" you are putting feelings and thoughts into her mind that are not necessarily there.  Moreover, you are crassly implying that she does not deserve to be running in the first place and that is no different than saying she isn't qualified.

This woman has qualifications that, when they are revealed to the uninformed, often blow their minds.  Hell, Hillary was qualified enough to be President in 2004.  Do you think her poll numbers are fabricated?  Or fixed?

Three new trash books just being released into the stores.  One pure-hate film (ala Dick Morris) soon to be released.  Why?  Because the authors and Morris know how hard it will be for anyone to measure up to her.  Christ, I don't even think Giuliani has been to upstate New York, let alone 91 countries.  

Please stop with the mantra that Hillary feels entitled.  It's not true.  

by samueldem 2007-05-29 02:11AM | 0 recs
Re: it's not about gender

Ross Perot probably didn't help him. He drew voters that were dissatisfied with the republicans, but preferred him as a "safer" alternative.

According to analysis I've read his voters would have most likely split 50/50. I remember I thought the arguments convincing but as I can't find the source anymore, this is purely anecdotal (and thus worthless) evidence. sorry.

by Ernst 2007-05-29 08:16AM | 0 recs
Re: it's not about gender

And yes, entitled is a very wrong discription for the reasons already given.

by Ernst 2007-05-29 08:25AM | 0 recs
Re: I agree with this

I try and use the electability argument without bringing up the "specifics" that have made Hillary such a polarizing figure because I don't think they are fair to her, but "electabiltiy" stuff is the most effective way to get people to not vote Hillary because the issue isn't whether independants and other people who have a negative view of Hillary should change thier minds,ofcourse they should (exept on her Iraq war vote)the issue is whether as a party we want to bet the 2008 cycle on whether Hillary can change perceptions that only people with bliders on say don't  exist with a good% of the people we need to win this election with.

by nevadadem 2007-05-28 04:02PM | 0 recs
The Spice Must Flow

I just had to comment my undying love for the analogy at the end of this post :D yaaaay Dune!

by themann1086 2007-05-28 03:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Geeky Analogy

Accept your geeky analogy challenge.  As far as basic styles: 1) Obama like Muhammad Ali, a flashier, dancer and counterpuncher who wants to avoid contact and win on points (the boxer); compared to 2) Clinton like Joe Frazier, a tough, insecure grinder with a chip on the shoulder who wants inside contact and looks to land heavy punches for the knockout (the puncher).

by mboehm 2007-05-28 04:35PM | 0 recs
No Sand Castle Will Withstand the Iowa Wave

I believe a lot of the nuances in the polling will be washed away in the tidal wave of publicity leading up to and right after Iowa.  I continue to believe that Clinton, given her extraordinary name ID, is in a very weak position for a frontrunner at this point in the cycle but if she is doing well right before Iowa her position will strengthen, likewise with Obama or Edwards.

by howardpark 2007-05-28 04:41PM | 0 recs
Re: No Sand Castle Will Withstand the Iowa Wave

Could you point to a frontrunner who was doing better than Clinton at this point in the cycle (forget that this is an 8-man race, but even with a 3-man race)?  Go back 50 years if you wish to point at a frontrunner who was doing better than Clinton at this point in the cycle.   I bet you can't find a one.  

by georgep 2007-05-28 05:01PM | 0 recs
Re: No Sand Castle Will Withstand the Iowa Wave

If you read howardpark's whole post, which was only a paragraph long, you'll note that it talked about Iowa.  It talked about how nationally polling will get swept away by the results in Iowa.  You can argue with that premise, but I think it is a hard case to make that a front runner at this point shouldn't be doing better in Iowa.

In reality it seems that the places she is spending the most time campaigning is where she does the worst.  In Iowa Hillary is trailing both Edwards and Obama in the poll average at realclearpolitics.com.  In New Hampshire her lead is stronger, but not as strong as her national lead.  It is quite likely that her lead would disappear under the "Iowa Wave" which howardpark refers to if she lost Iowa.

by Obama08 2007-05-28 05:50PM | 0 recs
Re: No Sand Castle Will Withstand the Iowa Wave

Ah, mea culpa.  It read to me as if he meant the rest of the states and nationally, which I can honestly not recall a better showing of any Democrat running for the nomination at this point of the cycle in my lifetime.

I disagree on how a presumed frontrunner 'should' be doing in Iowa.  Edwards had a huge edge in that state because of the infrastructure he built in 2003/2004 and the many visits he logged there.   The story here is that Edwards leads Obama and Clinton by "only" 5%.    

by georgep 2007-05-28 10:09PM | 0 recs
Re: No Sand Castle Will Withstand the Iowa Wave

to add to the chorus- i believe his point is that a lose by clinton would surrender in the voters mind the idea that she is invincible- or unbeatable. Some of this is the inevitable element going on where people have no clue other than they are saying _ clinton I guess because she's about all they know. That may or may not be the case if she loses bad early on.

by bruh21 2007-05-28 07:40PM | 0 recs
That is the dyamic ...

... unsettling the "Clinton frontrunner" meme in states with impending primaries leads likely primary voters to ask whether they'd prefer Obama or Edwards.

That leads to the national polls, that political journalists use as a crutch to avoid serious reporting, to show a slump in Clinton's support and upward surges in Obama's and Edward's support, which in the national media echo chamber leads even more soft Clinton supporters to say, "well, if its not her, then which of these other two do I prefer".

That will have an effect in the run-up to Super Tuesday ... for example, consider the most recent published SC poll that broke down by with and without leaners, the WIS-TV/Garin-Hart-Yang April 9-12, in both cases Clinton/Obama/Edwards:

  • with leaners, 31/28/21
  • without leaners, 24/23/17

If good early news for Obama and Edwards were to lead the 7% "leaners" for Clinton to split evenly between Obama and Edwards, that turns Clinton's first place position in that poll into a narrow third place finish, behind Edwards, with Obama winning comfortably.

And that's the position in one poll in April ... nobody knows what the position in South Carolina will be on primary day. Heck, we don't even know for sure whether SC will be the same day as Florida or the week before.

by BruceMcF 2007-05-28 09:12PM | 0 recs
Re: No Sand Castle Will Withstand the Iowa Wave

Obama and Edwards also have very high name ID. There's not likely to be a drop off due to them suddenly entering the picture.

by Englishlefty 2007-05-29 03:47AM | 0 recs
None of this is real

until the end of summer.  That is when the real campaign begins.  Right now people are starting way too early and whatever the polls say are likely to fluctuate dramatically.  I think Al Gore said it best, you don't want to see the Christmas ornaments up the day after Halloween.  This isn't real yet, and pushing the time line isn't pushing the debate much, and frankly it is kind of annoying.  Also, the longer a campaign runs, the more likely there will be a gaffe/blowout, so drawing this out isn't necessarily a good thing for anyone.

by pjv 2007-05-28 05:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Beyond Just "Hard" ...

Agree with "none of this".  It's very early.  

Way too much time for gaffes--and if recent media history is any indication- ANY Demo gaffe will be played and replayed and replayed.  Any of you tired of hearing about haircuts by now?  

Some "gaffes" and misquotes will be made up by the opponents and millionaire pundits with no interest in relating real issues to the public.  Why should they?
They are the true elite.

Meanwhile, we have a bunch of decent candidates.  Let's not beat on them too much.  There are plenty of others to do that.

by turnup27 2007-05-28 05:40PM | 0 recs
Hard core Dems, listen up:


If you're not committed to voting for the Democrat (whoever it turns out to be) over the Republican (whoever that turns out to be) in the general election, then you're not really a Democrat.  That doesn't make you unclean or unworthy or a (gasp) Republican.  But it doesn't incline me to support your candidate in the primaries, either.

Sometimes that which goes without saying ought to be said.  It's OK by me if Edwards supporters bash Hillary, Hillary supporters bash Barak, or Gore supporters bash everybody -- as long as their rhetoric never gets close to implying an unwillingness to vote for the Democrat in November 08.  

-- TP

by Rethymniotis 2007-05-28 07:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Hard core Dems, listen up:

agree with everything you just said.

by nevadadem 2007-05-28 07:31PM | 0 recs
Voting is one thing WORKING is another

I voted for Kerry and even helped GOTV in Wisconsin on Election Day. If Dean had won the nomination, I would have been out there working my tail off every way I could without totally abandoning my work and family*. I am sure I am not alone in this. Do you really think that would not have made a difference in 2004?!

*During the primaries I hosted a Dean Meetup, made numerous trips to Iowa, served on the Illinois for Dean Coordinating Committee, etc. etc. etc. -- and I had NEVER been involved in a political race before.

If Hillary is the nominee, I will vote for her in Nov. 2008. That is ALL. If Gore enters the race and wins the nomination ("running" the way he has been talking for the last 5 years, NOT like the 2000 candidate), I will be in the same position I would have been with Dean in 2004.

by Jim in Chicago 2007-05-28 08:31PM | 0 recs
Re: What will Al Gore do?

Gore's coyness about definitively not ruling out running is interesting.  Although I admit to looking at everything through an Obama prism, it is my opinion that Gore will not get in unless Obama falls- which is highly unlikely.  Gore would take on Clinton but not Obama and Clinton.  I also think that unless he feels so burned by the Dean endorsement in late 2003 that Gore will endorse Obama later in 2007 (wishful thinking?).  

by mboehm 2007-05-28 11:27PM | 0 recs
Re: The Meaning of the Hillary Brand?

One thing that's lacking in this piece is any consideration for what the Hillary brand means to those who support her.  What qualities do Hillary supporters associate with "Hillary?"  Why do Hillary supporters like her?  What qualities make her presidential to those who would vote for her?  What weaknesses do they see?

As far as I know, there's no information on this topic.  I haven't seen any polling data on how Hillary supporters view Hillary. Likewise, the MSM embargo on Hillary puff pieces means that there's almost nothing in the way of man/woman on the street interviews to work from either.  Thus, even though Hillary Clinton has to be considered the leading contender for the presidency in 2008, there is very little sense for why people are willing to vote for her.

Let me suggest some things.  First, I believe that Hillary is thought of as possessing a lot of positive qualities.  She's viewed as being smart, hard-working, well-informed, tough and resourceful.  She also seems to be viewed as somebody who's both been through the white heat of the right-wing attack machine and come out stronger for it.  Among Hillary supporters (and I count myself as one), I think that all of these qualities add up to the idea that she would be a "good president."

There's also the positive association with Bill Clinton's presidency, the sense that she would bring competent people into the Cabinet and government agencies, and Hillary's status as the first female candidate with a real shot at winning.  From some student materials I collected, it also appears that some people are beginning to view her as a "moderate" which is something that is generally seen as good by the American public.  

This is all pretty speculative on my part.  At the same time, someone who would want to beat Hillary in the Democratic primary would have to attack her in ways that make people doubt that their existential judgments about her are correct.  In this sense, competitors would have to attack her as being poorly informed, waffling, cowardly, and unable to respond effectively to attacks.  Or they would have to demonstrate that she hasn't stood up to the right.  Perhaps competitors would also have to attack all the positive associations with the Clinton years, her status as a female candidate, and her reputation as a moderate.  

Personally, I think it's going to be difficult for Hillary's Democratic primary opponents to crack the positive assessments that her supporters have made of her.  But I'm pretty sure that's what they'll have to do.

by Ric Caric 2007-05-28 08:05PM | 0 recs
Re: The Meaning of the Hillary Brand?
Those are some good points. Clinton is a known quantity to voters. She has an extensive resume that goes back some 35 years and first came on the national scene as an appointee in the Carter administration. Voters may like Obama and Edwards but they do not have nearly as much to compare. Edwards was briefly known on the national scene in 2000 when Gore considered him for VP and then in 2004 with his own campaign and as Kerry's VP nominee. Obama has only been on the national scene since 2005 when he became a member of the Senate and began making feelers as a presidential candidate in 2006. The poll internals of various state and national polls show that voters see Clinton as competent, intelligent, and the best leader on a number of issues. In one SC poll voters picked Clinton by a 4 to 1 margin on issues and leadership. In the Gallup poll last week she is leading in every major demographic group. She is connecting with voters on her abilities and on the issues.
by robliberal 2007-05-28 08:18PM | 0 recs
Re: The Meaning of the Hillary Brand?

Competent, intelligent, experienced. Sounds like John Kerry. We know what happened to him.

Yes, I'm talking about "the beer factor" here.

by Populism2008 2007-05-28 11:13PM | 0 recs
Re: The Meaning of the Hillary Brand?

About that often-cited "beer factor":

 Democrats actually like to share a Memorial Day barbecue with Hillary Clinton more so than with Obama and Edwards.  The Quinnipiac picnic poll shows that 34% of Democrats voiced Hillary Clinton as their barbeque preference, with Obama at 24% and Edwards at 16%.  

http://www.newsobserver.com/politics/sto ry/581719.html

http://www.nypost.com/seven/05262007/new s/nationalnews/picnickers__we_d_get_barb ecue_sauced_with_giuliani_nationalnews_c arl_campanile.htm

Seems like yet another talking point falling prey to reality.  The "beer factor" only exists in the vivid imagination of Obama supporters who are overestimating the charismatic powers of Obama, powers that were MIA in the first debate and apparently did not bring more than 24% of Democrats to want him at their grill fests over other Democratic competition in the Quinnipiac survey.  

by georgep 2007-05-29 12:37AM | 0 recs
Re: The Meaning of the Hillary Brand?

That is not to say that Obama does not have charisma, just not in the huge spades envisioned by Obama supporters (at least for many) and not at an enormously appreciable level over Clinton or Edwards.  

by georgep 2007-05-29 12:42AM | 0 recs
Re: The Meaning of the Hillary Brand?

Yes, he got 49% against an incumbent, Who still had firm control of his base and party. And who still enjoyed reasonable numbers among independents on the most important issues of the election. And Kerry still gained the most votes of any democratic candidate ever.

Not enough no. to our eternal regret. Perhaps I was the only one who thought that beating Bush would've been very tough. But Kerry didn't do as bad as every makes it out now.

by Ernst 2007-05-29 08:38AM | 0 recs
Before you crown Hillary...

you might want to read this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-hu ffington/her-way-hillary_b_49733.html

Hillary's history on Iraq is even more tortured than Kerry's. Will Democratic voters really make the same mistake again? There's a reason she's running THIRD in Iowa!

by Jim in Chicago 2007-05-28 08:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Before you crown Hillary...

Jim, Iowa has tightened to a knot.  MoE means that her and Obama's position are interchangeable, and both have actually narrowed the gap to Edwards, whose lead in Iowa was larger a few weeks ago than it has now become.   Besides, Edwards has practically LIVED in the state of Iowa for almost 4 years.   With the infrastructure he had built in that state he should be way ahead of the others, but is not.  

As for the "war":  Multiple polls reveal clearly that her war vote makes a very small difference.  In fact, her explanation of it helps her more than hurts her WITH DEMOCRATS.   It makes only 9% of Democrats LESS likely to vote for her, while with 48% of Democrats her handling of the Iraq war issue makes them MORE LIKELY to vote for her.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/RCP_PDF /Marist050807.pdf

"Among Democrats, 48% say her
position on the war makes them more likely to vote for her, and only 9% are less likely to do
so.
Question wording: Does Hillary Clinton's position on the war in Iraq make you more likely
or less likely to support her, or does it make no difference to you?"

More likely: 48%
No difference: 43%
Less likely: 9%

To wit, a full 91% of Democrats either don't care or find her Iraq position highly agreeable.   You are going to stake your lot on the 9% who don't?  

by georgep 2007-05-28 10:02PM | 0 recs
Which Iraq position?

The point of Arianna's post is that when you shine a light on Hillary's history on the subject -- which WILL happen over the course of the primaries -- her explanations are NOT satisfying and will drag down her chances.

John Kerry got away with pretending he was just like Dean on the war in Jan. 2004 only to turn around in August and announce that he would still have voted for the war (thus killing his chances of becoming President). Democrats are not likely to nominate again someone who has no principles and instead sticks her finger to the wind when important issues come up -- at least I HOPE Democrats aren't going to make that mistake again!

by Jim in Chicago 2007-05-28 10:59PM | 0 recs
Arianna?

Arianna Huffington who lunches with Ann Coulter?

That Arianna?

LOL

by samueldem 2007-05-29 02:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Which Iraq position?

Except Kerry didn't say that he would have voted for the war.  He said that he would have voted for the war resolution.  In October 2002, talk existed that a vote might have been taken on the war.  

By the spring of 2003, that was all forgotten in Dubya's rush to war generated by the inspectors' revealing that Saddam Hussein had no WMDs.  The war resolution worked.  It got inspectors into Iraq.  It also called for a UN vote to authorize the war.  That was never sought and never secured.  The 2002 war resolution didn't vote for the war so much as provide a pretext, an unexpected pretext.  We know definitively now in 2007 what was only surmised in 2002 - that Dubya never tells the truth.

by VizierVic 2007-05-29 02:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Which Iraq position?

I was thinking about the NIE issue when I wrote my reply, but did not see anything in Arianna's piece that was particularly damaging.  She might not have read the full NIE but she still has a reputation as a particularly well-informed politician.  Likewise, Hillary was for the war before she was against it and against withdrawal deadlines before she was for them.  But the American public was 70% for the war before it was 66% against it and so were a lot of Democrats, especially white Democrats.  The same process happened with withdrawal deadlines.  I don't see how Hillary is going to get burned by being in the same position as the broader public.  

I understand that a lot of people on the left are bitter that Hillary wasn't more out front on opposing the war.  And I can see the point although I've never felt that way myself as a war opponent.  But I decided that she was worth supporting despite her position on the war and I don't think that Hillary's going to be hurt by her position on the war with Democratic primary voters.  That's what the polling data cited by george p in this thread suggests as well.

by Ric Caric 2007-05-29 04:02AM | 0 recs
Re: Which Iraq position?

It is well known that Arianna "has it in for Hillary Clinton."  Those types of opinions are a dime a dozen and don't mean much.

Most Democrats are well aware of these issues, and as shown, don't care negatively about the war vote.  They care about the here and now.    

by georgep 2007-05-29 06:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Which Iraq position?

I believe the war is the issue and it continually dogs Hillary's campaign:

In an effort to justify her initial support of the war, Hillary has repeatedly insisted that her vote to authorize Bush to use force was actually a vote for diplomacy, that she didn't really believe we would go to war, and that the president misused that authority by giving short shrift to additional diplomatic methods. This is a smoke screen and that this claim is contradicted by Hillary's own voting record, pointing out that right before she cast her yes vote on the use of force, she voted against an amendment put forth by Carl Levin that would have required the president to actively pursue diplomacy before going to war.

In June of 2006 she made a speech against any time table for pulling out US troops in Iraq.

How can we trust her to end the war and bring home all american combat troops?

by BDM 2007-05-29 06:41AM | 0 recs
"Democrats...don't care...about the war vote

You go right on believing that George. This must be why Hillary was one of the 14 who voted against the supplemental -- because she thinks Dems aren't concerned with her war vote.

Something tells me Hillary could strangle a puppy on live TV and you would spin it as a plus for her. Reminds me of supporters of another George...

You may have your reasons for supporting Hillary, but pretending her war vote isn't a problem is whistling past the graveyard. I hope all Hillary supporters are as as delusional as you are, since I DON'T want her to win the nomination. Please continue advocating on her behalf. ;)

by Jim in Chicago 2007-05-29 08:49AM | 0 recs
Re: The Meaning of the Hillary Brand?

"She also seems to be viewed as somebody who's both been through the white heat of the right-wing attack machine and come out stronger for it."

Very good point, and something I've been thinking for a while needs to be included in any discussion of "electability" of the candidates.

I think even though a lot of people view this as a negative (because she has so much "baggage", partly from all the attacks), it could actually be a positive in an election against the GOP attack machine because:

  1. the GOP has dragged everything they can out of the closet against her, and
  2. she's still standing anyway.
I think that the combination of #2 and #1 means that if they do find something (real or not) to throw at her, she's more likely then not to be able to deflect it.

So, in terms of how much GOP attacks would affect her, I think she's probably in a stronger position then some of the other candidates we could put up because she has years of firsthand experience with the right-wing attack machine and knows how to defeat it.

My 2 cents.

by forecaster15 2007-05-28 09:51PM | 0 recs
Just "Hard" and "Soft" Support

Aren't Hillary Clinton's negatives the real problem with her campaign.  Something like 47% of the electorate detests her.  That isn't something she's going to be able to turn around between now and the heat death of the universe.  Any campaign she runs will be cutting the white water hoping that nothing new comes out which kicks her negatives above 50%.  She can't control that either, which makes her candidacy a crap shoot with loaded dice.

by VizierVic 2007-05-29 02:53AM | 0 recs

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